Amanda Shapiro: So you are becoming more and more interested in veganism because of Ben. This seems like an identity struggle set up, waiting to happen. Hi, Healthyish friends and welcome to the _Healthyish_ podcast, where we explore food and wellness in all their delicious complexity. I'm Amanda Shapiro, editorial director at _Bon Appétit_ and founding editor of_ Healthyish_. And today we're closing off our six part series talking about food and relationships with writer, baker, and fellow food lover, Zoe Denenberg. We recently published an essay from Zoe called "Never Again Will I Go Vegan For a Man," about how in pursuit of a romantic connection, she stopped eating meat and dairy almost entirely. I found it so relatable. It's just part of being in a relationship that we don't really talk about a lot. And usually from my experience, the person with the stricter diet tends to influence the other. So today we're going to get into all of that and more with Zoe, as well as Ben Weinberg, the man who's Zoe tried going vegan for. Welcome to the podcast, both of you and I am excited to get nosy. Zoe Denenberg: Thanks for having us, Amanda. Ben Weinberg: It's great to be here. Amanda Shapiro: So if you haven't read Zoe's essay yet, here's a bit of background: Zoe and Ben went to the same college. They even had some mutual friends, but they actually didn't meet until they separately moved to Birmingham, Alabama for jobs after graduation. So tell us now about the first time you hung out one-on-one, how did that happen? Zoe Denenberg: We had talked a little bit about how much we both liked to cooking. So Ben invited me over to his apartment downtown to cook. It was like this super beautiful. Amanda Shapiro: Hold on when you were having this conversation, does Ben say he's vegan? Zoe Denenberg: His veganism was a running joke. It was one of the first things that I learned about Ben and I was like, "you're actually vegan?" So I did know that he was vegan. I did not know how we would cook together considering I was allergic to half of his diet. Amanda Shapiro: Okay. Wait, what are you allergic to? Zoe Denenberg: So I'm allergic to nuts and sesame. Amanda Shapiro: All nuts? Zoe Denenberg: All nuts. Ben Weinberg: And meanwhile, I put like, I love hummus. I love, uh, putting like za'atar is one of my favorite spices, which Zoe taught me has sesame in it. Amanda Shapiro: A lot of seeds in that one. Yep. Zoe Denenberg: Yeah. Amanda Shapiro: But you were like, okay, we're going to do this together. We're going to hang out and we're going to cook. Zoe Denenberg: Yeah. And like, Ben also did not tell me what we were going to cook beforehand. He just like called me and gave me a grocery list. Ben Weinberg: It's also because I didn't know what we were going to cook beforehand, until, you know, three hours before we were going to hang out. Zoe Denenberg: Oh Ben, I remember, I got there and you had the recipes pulled up on your laptop. And I was like, "oh, like, we can like go off of this. And you're like, no, we have to do the recipe." When Ben has a recipe, he's very adamant about sticking to it. Even though he's very chaotic in the kitchen. Amanda Shapiro: I feel Ben, I'm the same way. It's all or nothing like recipe or chaos. Ben Weinberg: Well, the people who create the recipes, put in so much work to test it, to see what works better. Amanda Shapiro: That's why we like having you on the _Bon Appétit _podcast. But Zoe, I want to hear from your perspective, because you write about this really beautifully in the essay about this first dinner, what were your impressions? What did you think about Ben, cooking with him that night? Zoe Denenberg: I remember that night, so distinctly because I wrote about it almost immediately after I left Ben's apartment, cause I remember being like, "I want to remember exactly what happened," but I remember I got there and Ben was rehydrating chickpeas in his instant pot. And he had just like released the steam and his glasses were like totally fogged over. And he was just completely unphased by that. And I think like that was just so endearing to me. Amanda Shapiro: Oh yeah. I'm picturing this like romcom scene right now. Or like you walk in the door, his glasses are all foggy and like... Zoe Denenberg: He had also like sent me the code to get into his apartment, which that is super trusting of you. You should not send me your apartment code. We don't know each other that well. Ben Weinberg: It's a bad habit. Zoe Denenberg: So we were apparently making chickpeas. I had never had chickpeas before. I was kind of afraid to admit that I had never had a chickpea because I didn't really want to seem lame, but I told him and he was like, "oh, just try one." And I was like, "okay." So he just picked a little chickpea out of the pot and handed it to me and I tasted it and I was like, oh, that was honestly a pretty transformative moment for me because now each of these almost everyday. And I think it just took someone who was super open about everything and didn't seem like he had any expectations of me. Amanda Shapiro: Yeah. Zoe Denenberg: Then I remember leveled a teaspoon of salt with a butter knife. And I was like, "what are you doing, boy?" You cannot level a teaspoon of salt. Amanda Shapiro: Why? Because it's too precise? Ben Weinberg: Thank you, Amanda. Zoe Denenberg: Yeah he was like... Amanda Shapiro: Zoe, you're talking to the wrong person about this, but I hear you. Zoe Denenberg: Well, you know what, I'm sure someone listening will support me in that salt teaspoons should not be leveled. Amanda Shapiro: Yeah, you just grab a big pinch. I know. Zoe Denenberg: Yeah, exactly. He's like, it doesn't say one ish teaspoon. Ben Weinberg: There was also something that I didn't realize until much later in our relationship, Zoe, is that that was like your first time cooking, that like really... Amanda Shapiro: What? Ben Weinberg: Cause you didn't really cook before we met, right? Zoe Denenberg: Yeah. So I'd been like trying things out a little bit on my own, but I didn't really know how to cook yet. I really learned how to cook through my friendship with Ben. Amanda Shapiro: And beyond just the cooking, this first dinner turned out to be a pretty big turning point in your friendship with Ben. In your essay, Zoe, you describe it perfectly. You write, "I looked at him in his half unbuttoned Hawaiian shirt, and the whole thing just felt unbelievable. Not untruthful, but extraordinary. He felt extraordinary." I mean, I feel like you're hinting at it, but so you definitely had a crush on Ben. Zoe Denenberg: Yeah. Amanda Shapiro: Okay. Let's just take a break here. And when we come back, we'll find out what happens when Zoe opens up to Ben about her feelings, and how her diet starts to change too. So Ben, were you single at the time that Zoe was telling you about these feelings she had for you? Ben Weinberg: I was single at the time. Amanda Shapiro: Okay. Zoe Denenberg: At the beginning of our friendship, I was always a little bit curious about like, "oh, maybe this could be something more just because of the crazy similarities that we had." And then, around a month into our friendship I was like, "oh, like maybe there's something going on here." And I asked him about it. Cause we've always talked very openly about our friendship. Amanda Shapiro: Ben, what did you think when Zoey first asked you the question? Was it a clear response for you? Ben Weinberg: So I think the first, the first time that we talked about it, it was my first time to Zoe's apartment. And I think actually the question was, are these Hangouts that we've been having, are we going on dates? Or are we just like hanging out as friends? And I had actually just had an experience with, uh, another female friend where we had been friends for a while and had decided to like try going out on a date and it kind of made our friendship weird. So I think that was the backdrop to that initial conversation where... Amanda Shapiro: Interesting. Ben Weinberg: I was like, I, you know, I really care about this friendship and I don't want it see it kind of go south like that, that other friendship. Amanda Shapiro: In this interim, as you continue hanging out as friends, Zoe, this is when sort of the meat, no pun intended, of your essay happens, which is about your identity shift that happens while you are becoming closer to Ben, and cooking more with Ben who is vegan. And you're starting to also eat vegan, both with Ben, but also on your own. So what was that about, and what were you thinking along the way when that was happening? Zoe Denenberg: I think one of the things that I really liked about it was that he was so easy going about it. He really focused on making everything from scratch, which was an idea that I came to love a lot. Like I started baking my own sourdough. I started like making ricotta from scratch at one point. So it was really- Amanda Shapiro: Wait, out of tofu though right? Zoe Denenberg: Yeah, I did make silken tofu ricotta. Amanda Shapiro: So you're becoming more and more interested in veganism because of Ben. In your essay, you write, "we were close, but I wanted to be closer. He was passionate about veganism. Why couldn't I be too?" Zoe, it sounds like you're having a real identity struggle here. Zoe Denenberg: Yeah. I don't know. I loved the idea of eating plant-based and I would always, my roommates would make fun of me because I would say things like, "I just love a label." Like I really wanted to label myself something. And I saw it as like a pride thing, like, "oh yes, I'm vegetarian, I'm vegan." I called myself half vegan all the time, which doesn't make any sense. Amanda Shapiro: As like a non-label, label. Zoe Denenberg: I was just not vegan. Ben Weinberg: Mostly vegan. Zoe Denenberg: I just ate dairy. Amanda Shapiro: Right. Zoe Denenberg: But Ben was always super accepting of that. Like I remember on Passover last year I was home with my family, and like I posted this photo of a steak on Instagram, and the caption said like, "Me yesterday, 'I'm mostly plant-based.' Me, today." And Ben was- Ben commented and was like half veganism is better than no veganism at all. Amanda Shapiro: Yeah, well I mean, Ben, you are kind of the perfect person to entre Zoe into this world because you have a pretty flexible mindset, but still, it seems like Zoe, it was more about your personality and wanting to kind of get closer to Ben in this way that led you to kind of even be more in to it or stricter than Ben even ever wanted you to be. It was, seems like it was coming more from you. Zoe Denenberg: Oh, absolutely. Like I took it way too seriously. Amanda Shapiro: So let's get to the point at which, Zoe, you very bravely, I have to say, approached Ben again about having feelings for him. Zoe Denenberg: Yeah. These two conversations were exactly a year apart. Amanda Shapiro: Okay. Zoe Denenberg: So I had just kind of been thinking more about the idea of how nice it would be to have a relationship. And as I was getting a little bit older, a lot of my friends and my roommates were getting into these serious relationships and everyone always says like, "Birmingham is so much better when you have a partner." I did not think that I could find someone I was compatible with here. Amanda Shapiro: Yeah. Zoe Denenberg: And then here was Ben, who was like, so similar to me in so many ways. We got along so well, we were already so close, and whenever I had told my friends like, "oh yeah, me and Ben like, we're really great friends." Everyone was like," Okay, Zoe, like sure." Like give me that little, like, look that was like, we know that there's something else going on there. Amanda Shapiro: Right. But when you did go to him, what did you say the second time? How did you phrase it? Ben Weinberg: We cooked together first. Zoe Denenberg: So Ben makes homemade veggie broth. Amanda Shapiro: I'm not surprised. Zoe Denenberg: It's so good. Amanda Shapiro: And then... Zoe Denenberg: I was really nervous. I had like told all my coworkers that I was going to finally tell Ben how I felt about him. And we had this conversation, I was like the thing that I said to him, was, "I feel like you make me a better person, and you make me a better version of myself. Um, you make me want to be a better person." Amanda Shapiro: Wow. And how did that relate to your veganism or lack thereof? Zoe Denenberg: I mean, I was half vegan for like almost a year. I feel like there was only one week where I was solidly vegan, and at the end of the week, I was literally sick because I had eaten so many chickpeas. Amanda Shapiro: Right. Zoe Denenberg: So I, yeah, I think afterwards I kind of realized that veganism wasn't a part of my identity and that was not something that I wanted for myself. Amanda Shapiro: So, Ben, what did you think when, Zoe came to you a second time, and told you she was still having feelings for you? What was your, what was your thought then? Ben Weinberg: That's a good question. I remembered us having the initial conversation and kind of deciding to be friends, and I thought about it, and also had the same realization in the moment that I, I thought we were better off as, as friends. But as Zoe, it's interesting hearing you describe the coming to the realization that being like half vegan wasn't for you. And I think that food is such a important way to approach living life for yourself, because it is so habit based. We eat based on what we grew up eating and what the people around us eat. And thinking critically about how the food that you eat is connected to the type of person you want to be and how you want to relate to the people around you. Which I feel like, Zoe, I've seen you do in the pursuits that you're now going through. Zoe Denenberg: After we had that conversation, and after Ben started dating someone else, I was kind of like, I don't need to change anything about myself to be friends with Ben. Like Ben likes me for who I am, and if he didn't, he wouldn't have stuck around for this long. And maybe I would have lost him after I kind of gave up on veganism, but I didn't. So that's good. But that I feel like is a script that we're taught to follow is that guys and girls who were really close friends, like always fall in love in the movies. And that's just how it is. And it wasn't until kind of, after me and Ben went through this whole journey together that I was like, wait, I think we are really meant to be platonic friends. That is the only way that we're going to stay in each other's lives for as long as I want him to be in my life. And that's what I care about the most. Amanda Shapiro: Wow. You both have such evolved attitudes about this situation. I'm really impressed. So before I let you go, what's next for the both of you Ben Weinberg: I'm back home in Baltimore. And, uh, my girlfriend Reagan and myself are driving across the country. We built a camper in my Jeep, and we're working remote from different cities along the way. With the ultimate goal of moving out to Hawaii. Amanda Shapiro: Oh my God. What an amazing series of adventures. How about you, Zoe? Zoe Denenberg: I am also moving to Hawaii, separate from Ben. Amanda Shapiro: What? Zoe Denenberg: Yeah, So I'm moving to Maui. Um, Ben's moving to O'ahu, a different island. But yeah, we literally independently made plans to move to Hawaii. I'm going to be working at a bakery on a farm, uh, kind of commune lifestyle. Amanda Shapiro: That's great. So you guys are just like a plain hop, or a very long swim away from each other, such a coincidence. Um, but thank you both for sharing your stories today, and I wish you both the best of luck. Zoe and Ben: Thanks for having us. Amanda Shapiro: What we eat is an incredibly personal choice, yet sharing a meal is so core to our relationships; romantic or otherwise. It can be a tricky negotiation even without the kinds of dietary restrictions and allergies that Zoe and Ben were dealing with. Zoe and Ben's story is a testament to our ability to adapt to each other, but also to set boundaries. And I think it's a reminder that trying to change yourself for someone else's idea of health is pretty much never a good idea. And I can't think of a better takeaway for this _Healthyish _series than that. Thank you to our guests, Zoe Denenberg and Ben Weinberg. To read Zoe's full essay about her on again, off again, relationship with veganism, check out the link in our show notes and to follow Zoe's other writing and baking adventures, check out her Instagram @whatszoecooking. If you've loved the show, be sure to rate, review, and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. It helps us keep putting out the good vibes. And you can follow _Healthyish_ on all the social platforms @healthy_ish, or just visit bonappétit.com for more. The _Healthyish_ podcast is produced by _Bon Appétit_ in partnership with Pod People. Vishnu Vallabhaneni is our senior producer and Morgane Fouse is our associate producer. This episode was engineered by Trae Budde and our theme song is by Particle House. A huge thank you to the Pod People production team of Matt Sav and Madison Lusby. From _Bon Appétit_, June Kim and myself provided editorial direction for the episode. Special thanks to Julie Shen, Ginny Bloom, and Nico Steele. I'm your host, Amanda Shapiro. Thanks for listening and keep an eye on the _Bon Appétit_ podcast feed because we're cooking up something really exciting for later this summer.