Amanda Shapiro: Because now it seems like almost every snack out there is touting some claim about health. Hi, Healthyish friends, and welcome to the _Healthyish_ podcast where we explore food and wellness in all their delicious complexity. I'm Amanda Shapiro, the editorial director of _Bon Appétit_ and the founding editor of _Healthyish._ For this episode, we're talking about the stuff we eat between meals. The stuff we eat so much of sometimes that it becomes a meal. That's right, snacks. Snacks get a bad rap because, as we've all been told, they'll ruin your appetite, but right now there's actually a real health snack boom happening. Everything from these fudgy dried sweet potato snacks that we wrote about recently on _Healthyish _to popped water lily puffs to jerky made out of just about everything under the sun. Snack culture is real and it's redefining the way we consume our three square meals. So joining me in the virtual zoom studio to talk about the world of _Healthyish_ snacking is BA senior staff writer, Alex Beggs. A self-described snack-aholic, actually that's what I called her and then I asked her if it was okay that I called her that. She has written about the science behind making things crispy, the rise in packaged survival foods, and the annual trade show where all the newest snacks get their debut. And joining us all the way from Honduras is Andrea Hernández, who writes the extremely enjoyable newsletter Snaxshot, which highlights, analyzes, and sometimes totally lampoons the new snack trends popping up all across the world. We are so lucky to have you both on the pod, Andrea and Alex, thank you for joining me. Alex Beggs: Thanks, Amanda. Andrea Hernandez: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. Amanda Shapiro: Okay, so I want to start with a simple question that might be a sort of philosophical question, but I want to know from both of you, why we love snacks so much? And I don't just mean the three of us. I mean, pretty much everyone in the entire world. Alex Beggs: Well, my first answer was going to be that we love snacking because we have too much free time, or it's like coming from boredom, but then I, that that's kind of a bleak answer. But I think maybe people just love a small joy, you know? Like I love like a free perfume sample. It's coming from the same part of my DNA that's just like, give me a little something. Amanda Shapiro: It's like a freebie. Alex Beggs: Yeah. It's a little salty, something. It's a little sweet something. And I just need those to keep me going. Amanda Shapiro: Yeah. It's like snack is entertainment, which I feel like every candy bar commercial ever is, is like playing into, you know. Alex Beggs: Absolutely entertainment. It's a hobby. Amanda Shapiro: It's definitely, it's definitely a hobby for some of us. Uh, and for some of us it's a career. Andrea, what, why do we love snacking so much? Andrea Hernandez: I would say it also plays into like the psychology of rewarding. I think that it's an indulgence. And I think that that plays into not just like the nostalgia of all of us growing up at a time where snacks, were like our parents' way of like feeding us when they were both working, et cetera. I think it also has to do with that pleasure that we're giving ourselves in the form of a snack. Amanda Shapiro: Yes. I can't tell you how many times I've been like sitting at my desk and I'm like, as soon as I finish editing this piece, I can go get a snack, and it's like the dangling carrot. Alex Beggs: You guys did your parents give you a treat when you were potty training? I feel like that's when it starts, like this is deep Pavlovian stuff. Like I got candy if I pooped in the potty, that is for real. Andrea Hernandez: I love how we just convert ourselves to basically animals. Amanda Shapiro: Okay. So Andrea, tell us a little bit about what Snaxshot is and what's your great ambition besides taking over the world uh, snacking and becoming the, like the ultimate snack seer with your predictions? Andrea Hernandez: Yeah, I think, um, in the beginning I sort of thought of it as a space where we could just be like, if this can is really offering me a meditation, what does that even mean? And Snaxshot is a rebelliousness, like a playfulness to this industry that sometimes people take too seriously. It's like, you know, I get it, but like this adaptogenic drink is not really going to change my life. You know, it's been so wonderful to know that, you know, people from France, people from Singapore and all people from all around the world sort of relate to that sentiment. Even meme about this, like, you know, like it's a picture of care bears and it's like "oh, you're adaptogens in your $15 Erawan beverage." Amanda Shapiro: I saw that one. It was so good. You have to, you guys have to follow Andrea and Snaxshots on Twitter because, just go for the memes. Go for the wellness memes. Alex Beggs: That's why I love Snaxshots so much. Yes, Andrea criticizes what the industry is doing, but it also seems like she's coming from a place of getting really excited about some of these snacks, and finding a lot of joy in it, and loving food generally. So that's at the core of it. Amanda Shapiro: Okay. So it's all love for snacking, but I do think maybe we have to stick it to the industry a little? Like, especially when it comes to these more niche snack trends. Andrea, you mentioned adaptogenic snacks, which we're going to define that in a minute, but just to get a little broader, we all I think are seeing how snacks are getting branded and marketed to people. And we've seen how that has shifted for both of you, I'm curious what you see that shift has been, especially in the wellness world, because now it seems like almost every snack out there is touting some claim about health. Do either of you have thoughts on that? Andrea Hernandez: I mean, it's so funny because now you see things like water and hard seltzer, both using the label of vegan and it's like, "okay, well, thank you for that. Thank you for this certification that affirms that." But I do think at times, and I joke about this, I'm like, "oh my God, like, you're putting your functional oat milk into your functional cereal" and like.... uh, to me it's sometimes too borderline ridiculous. Cause like, if you talk, talk about function, inherently food is functional, right? What are we really saying? So it does feel like we are just using things as buzzwords. And to me, the fear is that things that are inherently good, for example, cannabis and CBD, that they become such a buzzword that it really detriments and tarnishes a movement that has some validity behind that because people are now using it as a trendy word. Similar to what happened to the word, organic. That's my thoughts. Amanda Shapiro: Yeah. And also the expectation for what that thing does for you get so hyped up that people think that, "oh, the more, the better," when it comes to CBD or cannabis, which I think we can all confirm, that's not actually the case. And it just seems to be overkill. Like, you know, all the little circles with the icons that you see on packages, you know what I'm talking about? Alex Beggs: There was a grad student, she has done a study about how, when people see those symbols on packages, it doesn't matter what's in the symbol. It's like something in a circle, you will associate it as being good for you. And I love that. I especially thinking of one of my favorites, which is IQ bars, which are pretty tasty and low sugar, love them. However, when I see that, I'm just like, "oh, I cannot wait to be smarter after I eat this." Amanda Shapiro: Right. Alex Beggs: But the point is to get as much information on the package to assure you that what you're eating is food, which is funny because like anytime you're eating something that's wrapped in a package, you're one step away from eating real food. So go to the grocery store, it's like orange juice has oranges on the front. Like when a package has to put its food on its own packaging to remind you what it is, you're getting a little far away from what it once was, you know? Andrea Hernandez: I honestly, like someone who has a marketing background, like I know all of this is all gimmicky and marketing essentially is trying to get you in your non rationale. And there is a European organization that came up with a study that said that the FOP, which is the front of package, the majority of those certifications are BS. And so to everybody else's point here, that what Alexandra was saying, that when you could put a circle there and it could be literally just a happy face, but you're just going to like, go for it because you think it's some sort of certification. Amanda Shapiro: Right, yeah. It's really wild. So, Alex, I hear you crinkling a little over there. Alex Beggs: Does it sounded a little like shattered glass? Amanda Shapiro: Did you drop your drink? Alex Beggs: Nope, buddy, this is Trader Joe's new crispy, crunchy champignon mushroom snack. And if that sounds like a snack from the French countryside, my friend, it is from Pennsylvania. And it is a dried white button mushroom, the most basic of basic mushrooms. It sounds fancy. It is a regular mushroom that has been dehydrated probably fried in sunflower oil covered in salt and preserved with my favorite corn, maltodextrin. And it is delicious. Amanda Shapiro: Okay, I should know this, champignon, is that a type, is that a type of mushroom? It's a fancy name for the white button mushroom. Alex Beggs: Don't you love that? Amanda Shapiro: I mean, you gotta hand it to Trader Joe's for their, for their branding. Andrea Hernandez: No but champignon is how you say it in Spanish. Amanda Shapiro: There you go. Andrea Hernandez: That's actually a word, champignon. Amanda Shapiro: But it sounds a lot better than white button mushrooms snacks. Alex Beggs: And it has this wonderful, groovy, shroom illustrations all over the front, that kind of reminds me of the Smurfs. Amanda Shapiro: But is it good? Alex Beggs: Less hallucinogenic. It's good. It's crunchy. It's like a little spongy if you don't chew it fast enough. Um, but I really enjoy the crunchy texture that sometimes chewy and I like anything salty. So it's doing it for me. Amanda Shapiro: Are you drinking anything to wash it down? Alex Beggs: I'm drinking... and I, I know Andrea has got her hands on this too. Ruby Hibiscus Water, unsweetened, out of a cute little glass jar. Amanda Shapiro: I would say like one of the biggest, maybe underground snack drops of the spring was this Ruby Hibiscus Water. Andrea, you wrote a, you wrote a deep dive newsletter about the spread of hibiscus that kind of focused on Ruby in particular. Tell us some more about that. Andrea Hernandez: You mean, hype-biscus? I actually caught onto Ruby way before they launched back in like August when I was already seeing the rise of hibiscus as the new matcha, in terms of trendiness. They even had, fun fact, they used to have a purple one, a purple hibiscus string. Amanda Shapiro: Naturally colored. Andrea Hernandez: Yeah, naturally. There's different hibiscus um, plants. I think that there's like 200 plus from when I wrote my issue, but yeah, there's different colors. That plant is just so beautiful, but Ruby is probably one of the best ones that I've tried. And this is really interesting because the majority of people, when I was writing that issue responded that they drank the Starbucks one and they thought that hibiscus is supposed to be sweet. And that to me was like the biggest heartbreak. It's like, no guys, it's all about the tartness. And so when I discovered Ruby, I was like, "oh my God, they're trying to bring the authenticity of the actual pallet of the hibiscus flavor," which is tart, hibiscus is not sweet. Amanda Shapiro: And it's an ingredient common across the world from South America, Southeast Asia, the Caribbean, it's used as an ingredient for so long. And it's just so, I mean, not surprising, but quite funny, that Starbucks is what brought it really to the American audience. Okay, we're going to take a quick break. You probably need to grab a snack, right? When we come back, Andrea, Beggs, and I are going to try to answer some real existential questions about snacking. And also just talk about navigating the snack isle. I'm kind of curious, this is like a chicken or the egg question. Like, are we expecting our snacks to be good for us because we're actually treating snacks as meals. Or are we treating snacks as meals and then wanting them to be good for us? Andrea Hernandez: I would say that there's two things: you saw in 2020, the rise of nostalgics knots to the point that cereal companies that have been in decline for like the past decade, they were like, "oh my God, how do we mitigate with this demand in our cereals?" and it was because, millennials in particular, were looking for nostalgic snacks to bring comfort. And at the same time, we're the generation of "goopification" of, of snacks. And so I can only tell you that it's both things simultaneously, if that makes sense. Amanda Shapiro: Yeah. Alex Beggs: We also just don't know how to eat. You know, like, I don't think I took any nutrition type of class in school. You know, I had to take Texas history twice. Nobody ever told me what a vegetable was and- Amanda Shapiro: Beggs no one told you...come on. Alex Beggs: Not in school, but my mom was like- Amanda Shapiro: Just because you grew up in Texas doesn't mean you got to say you don't know what a vegetable is. Alex Beggs: Uh, there was some murkiness. Amanda Shapiro: Right. Alex Beggs: But yeah, So now we're looking for the snacks to tell us they're good for us. And like when I talked to the dietician, Vanessa Risetta earlier this year, it was like, people don't go to dieticians. They think of it as this specialized kind of doctor. A dietician can help you figure out how to eat. But instead of going in those directions, we're being told how to eat. So we're like, what does the package say? Oh, this is full of antioch- I had no idea what an antioxidant was for so many years, but I was like, gimme those antioxidants. Amanda Shapiro: And I think we've now moved from antioxidant to adaptogen, and now even to nootropics. I would say like adaptogens, are adaptogens are starting to enter mainstream. I wouldn't be surprised if Trader Joe's was billing something as adaptogenic at this point, nootropics- Andrea Hernandez: It's already done. Smartwater, Smartwater this March released adaptogen Smartwater, so... Amanda Shapiro: Oh, wow. Alex Beggs: What does nootropic mean? Amanda Shapiro: So, yeah, nootropic I think is a little more like 2.0, Andrea, do you want to talk about- Andrea Hernandez: Yeah, I'll talk about both. So I like to explain to people, nootropics is about enhancing your mind and your focus, so your attention. And adaptogens are about helping your body cope with stressors. And I joke that everything has a nootropic and an adaptogen, it's like I came up with this term "functional unwinding." These things are basically telling us to do two things at once, which is like, whenever I see a beverage that has nootropics and adaptogen, that's like attention, but like relaxed at the same time. And so I started calling that like, wow, there's this new category of functional unwinding that it's like, not jittery, not hyped up, not too relaxed. Both things at the same time. Amanda Shapiro: So nootropic is like that Bradley Cooper movie, right? _Limitless_. That's like, that's like what nootropics are. Andrea Hernandez: Caffeine is a nootropic. People need to know that that's how popular it is. Caffeine is a nootropic. Yeah. Alex Beggs: It kind of reminds me of, Amanda, your favorite drink, which is the coffee and tequila. You know, you got... Amanda Shapiro: Don't tell people about that then, that's like my really embarrassing secret. Alex Beggs: That's your _pre-Healthyish_ like... Amanda Shapiro: My _pre-Healthyish. _ Alex Beggs: Before you worked at_ Healthyish. _ Amanda Shapiro: Yeah. Preferably like bodega coffee and cheap tequila. Andrea Hernandez: Oh God. Amanda Shapiro: And we should also point out at least as far as I know, I don't know about nootropics, but adaptogens are, tend to be herbs that have also been used for centuries in other cultures. A lot in traditional Chinese medicine and in Indian food and medicine. So we are kind of extracting, similar to cannabis and how CBD and all of these other like turpines and elements of this whole ingredient are getting extracted and additives in our every day foods, which I think is a little bit scary in a way. Kind of a little like sifi- dystopian future. Like we're moving away from this Whole Foods idea and now we're just infusing everything with wellness. Andrea Hernandez: Yeah. When I tell you there's a adaptogenic energy drink called Root, that is being targeted towards gamers. And it's like, yeah, we even have a vitamin that protects your eyes from like from the screen. I'm like what? The like, oh my God. Amanda Shapiro: Beggs is like, I got to try it. Alex Beggs: Wait, wait, wait, will you, we've come so far because my brother's a gamer and when we were kids, they used to buy this drink, I think at Best Buy called Balls. And it was like bright blue, super caffeinated. And that was the gamer drink, so now that we've moved on... look how far we've come as a society. Wow. Andrea Hernandez: It's the millennial legacy I'm telling you. We should be proud. Amanda Shapiro: I'm not sure if I want this to be our legacy. Andrea Hernandez: Are you kidding me? We're the generation that normalized riding in cars with strangers. I think we should be proud. Amanda Shapiro: Great segue. So I want to hop back into the grocery aisle for a second. Say we're at a Whole Foods or like anywhere, really. How does a health conscious or want to be health conscious consumer navigate the snack aisle when everything has this like health halo or this adaptogens and the nootropics? Andrea Hernandez: Yeah. I joke that the typical Erawan guy is a snack boy and- Amanda Shapiro: Boi, right? Andrea Hernandez: Yeah. Boi, I've gotten tags of people like at the actual aisles of Whole Foods, it's just gotten so insane. It doesn't even matter that your package, your can is, is pretty. There's just so many options out there. And I've literally been tagged like @snaxshot, please help. I feel overwhelmed. Amanda Shapiro: That makes sense. Alex Beggs: I'm thinking about your question, Shapiro, about like someone standing in the snack aisle trying to find the one that's good for you is like that should not be your mission in the snack aisle of the grocery store. That is the place where, you just pick whatever looks good and have a good time. Like you're playing around, you're trying something new, but I've been trying to simplify my snacking to be a nut or a fruit because we know that that doesn't have a million ingredients in it. So that's like as pure as you can go, but that is not as fun. And you can't make a Tik Tok video unloading your fridge full of kind of browned grapes. Amanda Shapiro: I think it's right to like, just question the question. Like, why are we even looking for that in the snack aisle? Can we just let snacks be snacks? Andrea Hernandez: What's in a snack? It's a much grander thing. Amanda Shapiro: Two grand for this podcast. Well, I think that's a good place to wrap up. We've really gone way deeper into this light subject than I ever expected we would. I love it. Thank you both for joining me, and Andrea final question, what can we expect from you and from Snaxshot down the line? Andrea Hernandez: Ultimate goal is to be able to write a book about millennials and our relationship to snacks and how that ultimately led to the commodification of wellness that we see now and how that just stems from a disconnect to what really nurtures us. And so hopefully I'll be able to do that. And I would want to start a fund in Latin America. A lot of kids sell snacks on the streets to make a living and I would love to be able to contribute in a way of getting these kids out of the streets and, you know, helping them have a better opportunity at life. Amanda Shapiro: Yeah, that's amazing. I have no doubt that you'll get there. That sounds like such an amazing project and also that is a book that I 112% want to read. But I, again, encourage everyone to subscribe, to Snaxshot, the newsletter, join the discord, get into the snack, what do we call it? The cult of... the international cult of snacking? Andrea Hernandez: The cult of snack, yes. Amanda Shapiro: The cult of snack. And follow Beggs on all platforms and read everything she writes. Andrea Hernandez: We're just a bunch of snack pals, you know. Amanda Shapiro: Thanks for listening to another episode of the _Healthyish _podcast. We're almost at the end of our six episode mini run, so if this is your first time listening in, go back and check out some of our dives into redefining the word healthy, foraging for our food, and how to quit meat for the sake of the planet. Thanks to our guests today, Alex Beggs and Andrea Hernández for joining me. To read Andrea's newsletter, go to Snaxshot.com that's snack with an X and follow her Twitter @itsandrea for all the memes. And for more Alex Beggs Trader Joe's product reviews, kitchen tips, and hyper insightful food culture pieces, checkout Beggs' writing on Bon Appétit.com. And if you love the show, be sure to rate, review and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. It helps us keep putting out the good vibes. For the recipes and stories mentioned in the episode, you can follow _Healthyish_ on all the social platforms @healthy_ish, or just visit our website for more. The _Healthyish _podcast is produced by Bon Appétit in partnership with Pod People. Vishnu Vallabhaneni is our senior producer and Morgane Fouse is our associate producer. This episode was engineered by Trae Budde and our theme song is by Particle house. A huge thank you to the Pod People production team of Matt Sav and Madison Lusby. From _Bon Appétit_, June Kim and myself provided editorial direction for the episode. Special thanks to Julie Shen, Ginny Bloom, and Nico Steele. I'm your host, Amanda Shapiro. I'll see you next week.