Sarah Jampel: I would have loved someone to record my face. The first time ate a piece of, I think I eat sashimi, which like, I don't really, like when- I went hard. I was like, if I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it. And I was like, "oh my gosh, I have never experienced this taste and texture before. And my mind is blown and I can never eat meat."

Amanda Shapiro: Hi, Healthyish friends and welcome to the _Healthyish_ podcast where we explore food and wellness in all their delicious complexity. I'm Amanda Shapiro, the editorial director at_ Bon Appétit_ and the founding editor of _Healthyish_. 

So one of the pillars of _Healthyish_ from the beginning has been that health looks different for everyone, and that's a good thing. It's a great thing. But, I also recognize that there are some pretty unavoidable truths when it comes to food and its effects on our health. Not just us as individuals, but as card-carrying members of planet earth. But take, for example, meat. The subject of eating meat or not eating meat is huge and complicated, and I feel stressed just thinking about it. Both because, I'm trying to make the best choice for myself and for the planet, it's really hard to even try to tackle it in a 30 or 40 minute podcast, but let's start by throwing out a number, 10%. This number comes from the UN Food and Agricultural Organization, and they reported that meat and dairy consumption account for 10% of global greenhouse gas emissions. That accounts for methane emissions from animals, energy costs around feeding those animals, and fuel emissions from transporting those animal products around the world. It's a lot, and there's plenty of discourse out there questioning whether any one individual choice, like going vegetarian or going vegan, can really make a dent in this climate problem that we have. But what's even more clear is that people really don't like being told what to put in their bodies, which, I mean, honestly, I feel that.

So today we're going to dive into these very personal conundrums, but we're going to try to have fun with it too. We're going to talk about how to cook if you are interested in eating less meat, how to make sure that those meals are always delicious, and I really can't think of two better people to join me in these conversations other than two lifelong vegetarians and _Bon Appétit _colleagues, Sarah Jampel and Chrissy Tracy.

Sarah is _Bon Appétit's_ Senior Cooking Editor and then Chrissy Tracy is a first generation Jamaican American chef, and one of BA's newest YouTube hosts and stars. So thank you both for hopping on the podcast today. I'm excited to talk to you.

Chrissy Tracey: Thank you, I'm happy to be here. 

Sarah Jampel: Me too! 

Chrissy Tracey: Very exciting. 

Amanda Shapiro: So just to kick us off, let's give our listeners a little bit of context. Chrissy, do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself and your journeys into vegetarianism and then into veganism? 

Chrissy Tracey: Yeah, absolutely. So I always say that my perspective is a little bit odd. Only because I grew up into a vegetarian lifestyle. It wasn't a question. And essentially when my parents migrated here from Jamaica to the states, they got a firsthand look into the factory farming industry here, which was very different than what they were used to at home. In Jamaica, you had your cows and your pigs and your poultry in your yard. You took really good care of them. And that kind of made it a little bit easier for people to eat meat because they built these nice relationships with the animals until, you know, it was time to eat, but that's what worked for the population there. But even at that rate, meat was never the main portion of food on your plate. More recently, I transitioned over to veganism because I started looking at the environmental impacts of what I did on an everyday basis. From what I wear, to how I eat, the car I drive. I started to think about those small choices, but you touched on something earlier that caught my attention and it was the fact that, does that one small choice make a difference? And that's hard, but my hope is that, you know, those of us that are doing the thing can inspire people throughout our platforms to make the switch and to consider eating more plant based, because I feel like plant-based breeds a lot of creativity and I think that's huge.

Amanda Shapiro: I, 100% agree. And the plant-based recipes you develop all really lean into this deep sense of creativity in the kitchen. But before we get to that, Sarah, I want to hear your story. So rumor has it, you became vegetarian by your own will at the age of five? 

Sarah Jampel: Not really by my own will, as I was very easily influenced by my older sister who, um, I think she's about seven years older than I am. So she was really the, the thinker behind it. But as an animal lover, I willingly followed. And also as a picky eater, I think like as a child, I was all about like being in control of what I was eating. For most of my life, I would say, it was just kind of my identity and it started because I really loved animals. I mean, not to be cheesy, like I understand that animals are fuel, but I do love them. But as I kind of considered the greater environmental impact, it just became honestly like the laziest route to reducing my impact. And I think something I'm thinking about now more and more is that just because like, that's one choice that I make doesn't mean that all of my plant-based choices are good either. It's like, that's as I'm looking into the dairy industry and the egg industry, I'm like those are also ingredients I should be using sparingly and thoughtfully. There's no perfect miracle ingredient. 

Amanda Shapiro: Yeah. Yeah. Sounds like you've eliminated what you see as the heavy hitters, but kind of the further down you go, the more problematic things can be. Um Chrissy, I saw you nodding a lot as Sarah was talking about not all plant-based substitutes necessarily being better. 

Chrissy Tracey: And I'll let you in on a little something that I've been mulling over with my boyfriend, who is actually an omnivore. We have a lot of conversations around the ethics of veganism, and if really that is the most ethical, most sustainable diet. I'm trying to create something new here, which is ethical sustainability as a diet, or ethical veganism, or ethical plant-based because to be truthful, you think about things like asparagus that requires a lot of water waste, especially in Peru, and is a reason why they have a lot of droughts. That's something that I came across recently and was flabbergasted by it. I didn't understand that. I didn't understand those intricacies. It's insane when you kind of break it down. I mean, here's the thing, I think the best thing that anybody can do to be more sustainable is eating locally and eating seasonal ingredients.

Amanda Shapiro: So one of the biggest takeaways for me is that sustainable eating means a lot more than just cutting meat out of your diet. It's just a much more involved way of thinking about the sourcing of the food on your table. Being aware of the seasonality of your produce along with the farming practices that created that produce. So there's a lot of information to consider when we're walking through the grocery aisle and not a lot of really easy answers. And, you know, all we can really do is try to stay aware of our carbon footprint by reading and asking questions about where your food comes from. But moving from that to thinking about this idea of plant-based eating, I'm curious to hear from both of you who have made careers in food, how have you seen the landscape of plant-based eating evolve from a trend to a whole- I hate to say it, but lifestyle?

Sarah Jampel: I think, for me, the marketing, especially around plant-based meats is very fascinating because one thing I've learned as I've looked into how these products are advertised to people is that they're not, they're not marketed towards vegetarians or vegans really. They're trying to capture the population that still wants to feel like they're eating meat. I think people still don't really want to be told what to eat or to feel like they're only eating plants. 

Amanda Shapiro: Well, even the word plant-based is new, right? Like people don't like to be told I'm vegetarian or I'm vegan as if it's like an identity, like plant-based feels so much friendlier. 

Sarah Jampel: Yeah, for sure. I didn't even really know what it meant until a few weeks ago when I had to ask, is it vegetarian or is it vegan or what does it mean? 

Amanda Shapiro: Right. I feel like plant-based is this word that people use to make their diets feel less strict? Like if you're vegan, you're not eating a fish taco most of the time, but if you're plant-based maybe that taco's fair game. And I think if using the term plant-based makes you feel better about what you're eating, then that's great. Chrissy, I know you tried a fair amount of meat before going strictly vegan, right? 

Chrissy Tracey: I spent three to four months of my life experimenting and eating everything. Because at that time I wanted to understand if I can make plant-based alternatives. I can't. 

Amanda Shapiro: That reminds me, Sarah went through a period of trying to eat fish. Right, Sarah? 

Sarah Jampel: I went through a big fish bender. Um, I would have loved someone to record my face the first time ate a piece of, I think I eat sashimi, which like, I don't, I mean- I really like when- I went hard, I was like, if I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it. And I was like, "oh my gosh, I have never experienced this taste and texture before. And my mind is blown and I can never eat meat." Chrissy, I'm so like amazed that you did that trial period and then like turned away. I kind of feel like I would eat chicken and be like, "oh my gosh." 

Chrissy Tracey: I'll tell you what, if you go to Jamaica and your grandma offers you a little piece of ox tail, what are you going to do? It was more of a more moral dilemma for me at that point. I was like, I don't want to offend anyone from a cultural perspective. That that's the difficulty with traveling. But I wanted to try it. And I was amazed at the flavors, the textures, et cetera, kind of grossed me out to be honest in terms of certain textures, but that's just because I'm weird about that sort of stuff. I think after that moment, I was like, "all right, well, I already tried one thing might as well see what else is out there?"

Amanda Shapiro: It was like your rumspringa, you know, like when the Amish go out and like do it all and then they decide if they want to go back. 

Chrissy Tracey: Yep. 

Amanda Shapiro: And since that moment, Chrissy, you've kind of grown into this reputation as a vegan chef, which there are still not that many in the culinary world. Walk us through that journey. 

Chrissy Tracey: I started doing my own business ventures and I saw that there was actually a demand that actually largely a group of people that ate meat and just wanted a little less meat and still wanted to have delicious food. And I think the key there is any food can be delicious. Even, I can say like when I'm filming for _Bon Appétit,_ sometimes I'm like, "I don't want to say the word vegan," because there's such a negative stereotype around it and it doesn't represent me. I want to showcase that it doesn't have to be all or nothing. Once you try to take away the power of choice from people, they're automatically going to be standoffish to this diet or this way of life. And then, back in 2018, I started doing a meatless Monday program at a restaurant. And again, didn't think anyone would want to be on that train, but they did. And now I'm in a couple of coffee shops and it's really cool to just see how, as a result, being able to inspire so many people. I was at the coffee shop last week and there was a woman that didn't, she didn't know who I was. She was like, "I'm just looking for the vegan scones. I know they come every Friday." And I was like, this is so funny to me because I didn't, she's not, she's not vegan. But she knows that the blueberry scones I make are banging, you know? And so she buys them for her family every Friday. And that was so, that was really warming to me. I was like really shocked at how attitudes are shifting. 

Amanda Shapiro: This is a good segue, cause I want to sprinkle in some, some more delicious food conversation among what is a kind of a heavy subject. So I think there are these certain ideas about food or cravings that people have that they think they associate with meat. So I want to like throw some of those out and then hear from you both what recipe or food that's not meat based satisfies that for you. So the first one is comfort food. 

Sarah Jampel: Sure. I love carbs. I, um, for most of my vegetarian life, it was just pasta really, and like salad and fries. Why not? Balanced meal. Um, but now one uh, one thing that I have been really wanting is chicken broth, which I've only smelled like I can't remember the taste of it. Um, but it smells- 

Amanda Shapiro: You love the smell of chicken. I have this memory of being in the test kitchen with you.

Sarah Jampel: I do love the smell of chicken. I learned a really amazing tip from Andrea Nguyen, the amazing Vietnamese cookbook author, and she makes a vegetarian chicken pho with nutritional yeast broth. So essentially you steep the nutritional yeast in water and all of that umami, kind of cheesy flavor from the nutritional yeast infuses in the broth. It is very delicious and it's a perfect base for noodles, dumplings, anything you would want chicken stock for. And that to me is very warming and comforting. 

Amanda Shapiro: And that sounds so amazing. What about you Chrissy? 

Chrissy Tracey: Honestly, I've been huge into mushrooms because I've been kind of transitioning to more of like a foragers mindset and getting into cultivating my own mushrooms at home. I have these logs set up and they're due to grow some king oyster mushrooms in shiitakes is in a couple of weeks. And I think that for a lot of people that understand how to properly prepare mushrooms would agree that you can get like a very meaty texture almost to satisfy that craving if you have that as a non-meat eater. So I would say like, the fried oyster mushrooms that I did as my first recipe for _Bon Appétit._ 

Amanda Shapiro: Loved those. 

Chrissy Tracey: Yeah. And it was like, it was an automatic comfort food. People love fried chicken, right? So how do you kind of get that same texture and still all those flavors in there? I did a vegan buttermilk and then battered it with flour and a bunch of different spices, and I think what a lot of people haven't realized yet is that there's a lot of mastering of vegetables to be done that has not been done yet. And I guess it's easier to maybe rely on salt, black pepper, paprika as your main spices when you're working with meat, because the meat has a lot of flavors of its own. So it just needs to be lightly enhanced. Whereas vegetables, some are more bitter than others. Some, you know, have distinct properties that might not taste that good to somebody that's not used to eating vegetables all the time. So how do you kind of compliment those natural flavors? 

Amanda Shapiro: After the break, we'll get into that: How to enhance your veggies and the veggies that can benefit from a hot minute on the grill, just in time for July 4th.

Okay, so, 4th of July coming up this weekend, and it's not specifically a food holiday, but we kind of make everything a food holiday around here, so it is. And it's typically set around one piece of equipment. And you know what I'm going to say, it's the grill. And grilling on this holiday is also typically associated with meat. What does July 4th look like for both of you? 

Sarah Jampel: I don't have strong associations with the 4th of July. I mean, maybe it's for that reason, I feel like grilling to me, I'm annoyed with the chauvinistic aspect of it. I'm annoyed with the big piece of meat. I hope I can talk about this because BA is doing a vegetarian grilling feature, and kind of the concept behind that is like, there are delicious vegetables to grill and eggplants and peppers and things that will really like take on that charred, smokey flavor. I'm kind of a proponent of like grill the vegetables simply and then dress them up with sauces and crunchy toppings, because marinating vegetables and grilling them is not something I personally want to be doing. I'd rather add flavor after the fact so that you can like totally control what it tastes like.

Amanda Shapiro: That's a great tip because I think people do just assume that you should treat your vegetable the way that you would treat your piece of meat or anything else you're going to throw on the grill. Or that you're just going to show up with a garden burger and that's going to be enough. How about you Chrissy?

Chrissy Tracey: Yeah, so grilling is one of my favorite things in the world. I discovered over the past three years. So I am always getting experimental. I just developed a recipe for grilled oyster mushroom scallops, which are marinated in like kelp powder and garlic and olive oil and a little bit of vinegar and lemon. And, you know, I let that sit for like 20 minutes. I'm like anyone else, you know, I try to make recipes that will be appealing to somebody that's at home and doesn't want to spend more than an hour on cooking. So I'll do that, and then I'll do like a white wine butter pasta, and grill those mushrooms up for a couple minutes on medium high heat, and honestly, the flavor blast and the texture that you get is just, it's so good. 

Amanda Shapiro: Sarah and I are definitely like drooling on camera. 

Sarah Jampel: I'm sold.

Chrissy Tracey: No, I think it's thinking outside of the box with grills. Last year, I developed a carrot dog recipe and like sounds fricking weird. My boyfriend was like, "what are you doing, Chrissy?" I'm like don't mind me as I'm like stabbing holes into the carrots that I've just boiled. And like of marinating them in like a homemade barbecue sauce and then grilling them up. And then, you know, you prepare it with all the fixings and I mean, it's just like this smokey delicious carrot dog. 

Amanda Shapiro: I think we're getting at a really interesting thing here, which is that a lot of what people crave about meat is certain textures, certain flavors, certain accompaniments or marinades that aren't necessarily the meat itself, but about the way it's prepared. So I wonder what both of your methods are, say, if you're trying to convince a skeptic to go meat free. 

Sarah Jampel: I feel like my strategy for kind of swaying skeptics is just not to tell them. I made a silken tofu chocolate cream pie a couple of weeks ago. And I just didn't tell my parents what was in it. I was like, there's a secret ingredient in here, see if you can figure it out. And my mom texted me like couple hours later being like, "is it cardamom?" And I was like, "no." And there was no cardamom in there. But I think making a big deal about it doesn't really help. I think using enough fat often helps, using enough salt and spices helps. And then yeah, like being solid with your cooking techniques, and then just not talking about it. I also think a lot of comes down to looking at cuisines where they've been doing this for thousands and thousands of years. And like, it's not a novelty at all. I'm thinking of miso as being like one of the most flavor packed plant based ingredients, and like it's been around forever and they know how to use it in Japan. And so there are these resources and experts that we can consult, who know how to really use these ingredients to great advantage. And I'm always kind of amazed by how much flavor can be had from just a few really powerful ingredients, like dried mushrooms, kombu, miso, those are all amazing resources. 

Chrissy Tracey: Yeah, absolutely. For me with the, with the kelp, it's just like, I never really understood the fishy oceanic flavor that people would crave until, you know, I tried red snapper in Jamaica and I was like, "oh, it's more of really that like salty, oceany kind of like flavor that th- that they're talking about. I can do that with kelp." So kind of learning those associations and being able to apply those into my cooking. I would agree with Sarah, like yeah, just making plant based as familiar as possible and not making it a huge moment for anyone. Just, "Hey, try this recipe because it's fricking good." That's it. 

Amanda Shapiro: Okay, so I want to have a little debate, and maybe it won't be a debate at all, because you're just going to agree with each other. But here we go. Sarah, you have given me permission to mention that you happen to be pregnant. 

Sarah Jampel: It's true.

Chrissy Tracey: Congrats. 

Sarah Jampel: Thank you. 

Amanda Shapiro: Yeah. In fact, by the time this airs, maybe you will have birthed your child. 

Sarah Jampel: Definitely, definitely. 

Amanda Shapiro: She's like, "I better have." So you and your partner, your husband, have been discussing how you're going to raise this child, whether vegetarian or, or not. And I'm so interested to hear your perspective Chrissy, because that was your experience. You were born from the womb a vegetarian. 

Chrissy Tracey: Yeah. So I, interestingly enough, I mean, I'm not, you know, I'm not having kids right now or anything like that, but I definitely want to have kids one day. And obviously my partner and I are kind of on a different page when it comes to food and eating and everything like that. But we're trying to find our medium. And one of the things I thought is like, okay, well, I would like to raise my children at least vegetarian, but maybe if they're 12 or something, they can go out and experience different things and make that choice for themselves, because as a parent, I'm going to do my due diligence to inform them of my why and see if they align with that. But again, at the very end of the day, I would want to raise my children to be more environmentally conscious than the last generation and that's the most I can hope for. 

Amanda Shapiro: That's a really good way of putting it. Yeah. And what's the conversation been like in your house, Sarah? 

Sarah Jampel: Um, well, my husband is what I live to call a "fairweather vegetarian," which is like, we just moved to a new city, we live in Baltimore now, and there's like a great fried chicken place a couple blocks away. So he like had to get the fried chicken. So, that's the kind of person I'm dealing with. 

Amanda Shapiro: A curious- 

Sarah Jampel: He's great.

Amanda Shapiro: A curious eater. So before we end, I just want to ask to go back to food and cooking for a minute, for you each to tell me about a recent vegetarian recipe that you developed. Walk us through it. And Chrissy, no pressure, but I hear that you're doing a vegan cherry rum ice cream sundae. 

Chrissy Tracey: Yes. 

Amanda Shapiro: So maybe you could maybe want to talk about that. I'm deeply curious about that one. 

Chrissy Tracey: Absolutely. So what's special about it to me is that in my Jamaican culture, pretty much every dessert that they have is centered around rum soaked fruit. So it was really sweet to be able to kind of bring in that influence into this recipe in my own way. Essentially, I'm doing a macerated berry sundae, which is just... I'm doing strawberries and raspberries that are gently mashed with sugar and spiced rum, and kind of set to kind of create their own syrupy goodness for about 20, 30 minutes. The goal of this recipe was that it had to be something that someone could put together quickly, but still very delicious. You still kind of want some whole parts cause that juicy berry bursting your mouth. Like that's, that's what I'm going for. And then you layer that between scoops of, I like silk vanilla bean ice cream, that's like my go-to, and I created a almond coconut crunch topping that is, you know, you take the almonds, you throw them on a sheet pan, you throw a little maple syrup on there for some added sweetness, and you kind of worked that into the layers and the topping and add a little bit of whipped cream, if you dare. Ready Whip has created a delicious almond milk whipped cream. That has been my go-to for the last couple of months. You get the sweetness, that little punch from the spiced rum just very lightly on the palette, but then it's really nicely balanced with the coolness of the ice cream and vanilla bean against those juicy flavors from the berries. It's just, I can't even describe it.

Amanda Shapiro: Temperatures melding. It all sounds so delicious. Boozy fruit is like a food category of its own that I could just like probably not live on, but eat a lot of.

Chrissy Tracey: It's good!

Amanda Shapiro: Sarah, what about you? 

Sarah Jampel: I think probably this halloumi, I don't know what we're calling it in print, it's in the August issue. Can I talk about it?

Amanda Shapiro: Yes, let's talk about it. This is going to be like a sneak peek from our August issue. 

Sarah Jampel: I think I pitched it as a cheese burger, because it's really just a slab of cheese. 

Amanda Shapiro: Literally cheese burger. 

Sarah Jampel: Yeah, there's a slab of cheese involved. Um, I had this idea while looking through Nigel Slater's cookbook, "Greenfeast," and I think the concept is kind of like, oftentimes a slab of cheese is more delicious than a veggie burger and a lot easier. So for my take, it's seared halloumi on a bun with squash that's been pan-seared and then marinaded after it's cooked, and it gets marinated in basil, garlic, olive oil, and pickled jalapeno brine and then you also put some of those pickled jalapenos on the sandwich. So halloumi is very salty, um, in a way that I love. And it also is both, like a little squeaky and when you cook it, it gets melty, but not excessively melty. It still has a bite. And then pairing that salty cheese with summer squash, which honestly has a tendency to be kind of bland. But then, um, 

Amanda Shapiro: But we get a lot of it, and we need to use it up. 

Sarah Jampel: Yeah, you have to do something with that. It's always there. It's always there. And then like the briny spicy jalapenos and the basil and the marinade from the squash kind of soaks the bun a little bit. It was very simple and definitely a good alternative to the veggie burger. 

Amanda Shapiro: I love that recipe and it is part of the upcoming _Healthyish_ farmer's market challenge, which is meant to focus on different all-star ingredients that you find at the farmer's market around this time, which halloumi, I mean, I will say this recipe, halloumi kind of steals the spotlight from the zucchini, but there is a lot of zucchini in there. And I think it's a perfect example of a recipe that is sort of accidentally vegetarian, or that you wouldn't think like, "oh, this is trying to be a burger or this is trying to be meat." It's just deliciously it's own, really its own thing. 

Sarah Jampel: No one would confuse it for meat. 

Chrissy Tracey: No, sounds really good. 

Sarah Jampel: Yeah, I think people can forget that it can be fun. 

Amanda Shapiro: Cooking is fun. 

Sarah Jampel: Sometimes. I mean-

Amanda Shapiro: If someone else is doing the dishes. 

Sarah Jampel: Yep. Yes. 

Chrissy Tracey: There we go. You hit the nail on the head. 

Amanda Shapiro: Yeah. 

And that's a wrap on this episode of the _Healthyish_ podcast. Thank you as always for listening. Some of the recipes we talked about are linked in this episode's show notes. Give them a try this weekend. Thank you to our guests Sarah Jampel and Chrissy Tracey for their rolodex of recipes and insight. Give Sarah a follow on her Instagram @sarahjampel and find Chrissy too, while you're there @eatwithchrissy. That's C H R I S S Y. And if you love the show, be sure to rate, review, and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. It helps us keep putting out the good vibes. For the recipes and stories mentioned in the episode, you can follow _Healthyish_ on all the social platforms @healthy_ish, or just visit our website for more. 

The _Healthyish_ podcast is produced by _Bon Appétit_ in partnership with Pod People. Vishnu Vallabhaneni is our senior producer and Morgane Fouse is our associate producer. This episode was engineered by Trae Budde and our theme song is by Particle House. A huge thank you to the Pod People production team of Matt Sav and Madison Lusby. From _Bon Appétit_, June Kim and myself provided editorial direction for the episode. Special thanks to Julie Shen, Ginny Bloom, and Nico Steele. I'm your host, Amanda Shapiro. I'll see you next week. .