Amanda Shaprio: Hey listeners. Welcome to _Bon Appétit's_ new podcast, _Food People_. I'm Amanda Shapiro, editorial director at _Bon Appétit,_ and your host. In each episode of this show, we're going to tackle a single food question. And let me start this one off by saying that we are in the final days of summer, sadly. And for us_ Food People_, that means we're soaking up the final few weeks of grilling season. Now I can handle like the burgers and the hotdogs, but one thing that I've always been kind of hesitant to grill is chicken. I don't know why, poultry just seems very sensitive. It's kind of a bummer too, because barbecue chicken is probably one of my absolute favorite foods, but I'm just too scared to cook it at home. So I was really thrilled that the August issue of _Bon Appétit_, it is also the grilling issue, features a whole slew of grilled chicken recipes and advice on how to do it. But I also realized looking through it that there are all these conflicting opinions when it comes to the best way to grill chicken. I have questions, like is white meat better than dark meat? Marinade or no marinade? What about a sauce at the end? Do I need one? So for this week's episode, I am bringing in two test kitchen editors who worked on this grilled chicken package. Andy Baraghani and Jessie YuChen. Andy is a test kitchen veteran, and Jessie is one of our newer staffers. And I'm thrilled to have them both on the show. Hi, both of you. Thank you for being here. Andy Baraghani: Hi Amanda. Hi, Jessie. Jessie YuChen: Hi. Andy Baraghani: I feel like I learned so much about your right there, Amanda. I mean, uh, your love for barbecue chicken, uh, your feeling towards a chicken, being a delicate bird on the grill. This is just - wow. All these new facts. Amanda Shaprio: You must be forgetting the time that we developed a _Healthyish_ barbecue chicken recipe, and I think I like ate the entire plate at the tasting. Andy Baraghani: You know what, actually that's the first image that popped in my head when he said barbecue chicken, not you, of you eating the whole plate but that... but of that photo that _Healthyish_ uh, barbecue chicken is a, that's a beautiful photo. How could I forget? Amanda Shaprio: It's true, and I'm not ashamed to admit it. It was, it was a delicious recipe, but that's not the recipe were here to talk about today. We have a whole slate of new chicken recipes. So we're going to talk about two in particular, two that you both worked on, and what makes them different. So, Andy let's actually talk about your recipe first. You developed some delicious looking and sounding green goddess chicken thighs. Break down this recipe for me. Andy Baraghani: Well, truthfully, when I thought of the whole grilled chicken idea, and I wanted to bring on Jessie and Rachel, who's not on today, but we're sending our love, who developed some delicious recipes for this package as well. And so I feel like I wanted to give both of them the first choice of cuts. And then I ended up with the boneless, skinless chicken thighs. That's, that's, that's from my perspective, I don't know exactly if they feel the same way. Amanda Shaprio: Andy, this is not selling your recipe, come on. Andy Baraghani: Well, you know, no, no, no, no. I'm so proud of my recipe, but at the same time, I'm obsessed with the recipes that they both developed. Um... Amanda Shaprio: Okay, good sportsman. Let's get into the cut first, boneless, skinless thigh. What does this cut give us toward the overall flavor and sort of texture of the dish? Andy Baraghani: So with boneless, skinless thighs, you're getting two things. You're getting that wonderful fat that you're not going to find in chicken breasts. It has a higher fat content and also the higher fat content allows it to be grilled directly on the grates. You also have this yogurt marinade, and that yogurt marinade is you're adding additional amount of fat. Also the acid in there will tenderize it, but the yogurt, once it hits the grill, it creates this kind of caramelized yogurt crust all over the chicken. That just, for me, it's perfect. Amanda Shaprio: Mm mm. So good. So you're marinating them in this dressing that the inspiration is obviously green goddess salad dressing, right? Andy Baraghani: Yes. Very much so. Amanda Shaprio: And tell us about like the flavor combos in there. So dairy with chicken, that's something we've seen a little bit before with Simeon's buttermilk, the classic buttermilk marinated, whole chicken. What does that dairy add to the chicken that helps it kind of work well in this recipe? Andy Baraghani: The yogurt here is tenderizing the chicken, but it's also adding acid, like I was saying before, it creates this kind of barrier for the meat and the grates and it forms that nice crust. Amanda Shaprio: And then you score the chicken. So you're cutting some holes into, or cutting kind of slices into it before it marinates. Tell us about that part. Andy Baraghani: I almost forgot about that part. You know, th- that's something where, because it's, uh, there's no bone and there's no skin it's, it's this kind of irregular flappy shape to it. Um- Amanda Shaprio: Raw chicken thighs are not the most attractive. Andy Baraghani: It's not the sexiest cut. It's not, you know, it's okay. Uh, but I saw someone making slits, and I thought it was so smart, and I won't do this with any kind of meat, but because chicken thighs are already kind of removed from the bone and you already have this kind of, again, irregular shape, I thought, all right, let's do a few more slashes and have that yogurt marinade really get in there quickly. And also more flavor, more room for it to caramelize. And I thought, well you're just, you're just setting yourself up for success. Amanda Shaprio: Yeah. It's really smart. And I bet it does cut down on the amount of time that you would need to marinate it for it to get that kind of maximum flavor in there, right? Andy Baraghani: Definitely. Amanda Shaprio: And how long are you marinating it for about? Andy Baraghani: I mean, I've just called for 30 minutes at room temperature, but you could certainly do this ahead of time. Just cover and chill for up to 12 hours. And then I would just set it out for about 30 minutes before you hit it on the grill. If you are doing it that much ahead of time. Amanda Shaprio: Yeah, it's really great to have those two options. So if you're kind of doing some last minute cooking, all you need is your 30 minutes, but if you're really thinking ahead or making a big batch for, you know, a party, you can just pop them in the fridge overnight. And the other thing that's really nice and efficient about this recipe is that you're taking the marinade, and then you're also using it as a sauce, or you're reserving some of it. So let's be clear, you don't want to put marinade that has had raw poultry in it on top of your cooked chicken, but you're making enough to, to add as a sauce, is that what's happening? Andy Baraghani: Yes. You're making basically a double batch of sauce. Half of it goes with the chicken just enough to kind of slick it and coat it. And then the other half is used as a kind of a sauce to go with it. Because that sauce is creamy, it's acidic, it's garlicky. So it actually works really well as a, kind of a two for one deal. But you could also kind of get away with having the chicken, serving it with some lemon wedges and some crunchy radishes, and then using the remaining dressing as kind of a salad dressing for something else. For a second dish or two, or throw it in a grain salad. I feel like that would be delicious. Amanda Shaprio: Yeah, it's not just double duty, but possibly triple duty with this sauce on the, on the side. But let's talk about the actual grilling part. So what temp, around, are we grilling this chicken? I think this is where, like my anxiety kicks in with chicken. Cause I'm like, I feel like I always have my grill too hot and then I get char on the outside and under cooked on the inside. Or it's too low, and I'm waiting forever for my chicken to get up to like 165 and it just, you know, that like scary feeling when your guests are hungry and you're like, "Ugh, my chicken's not done." So, so where are we- where are we trying to land here? Andy Baraghani: If you're using a gas grill, the truth is you just have to turn the medium heat and let it preheat for a good 10 minutes and you're good to go. Now, if you're working with a charcoal grill, which I love for many different reasons, uh, it takes a little bit more work, but you do get that incredible smoky flavor. Usually I'll never have my choals, uh, my charcoal, completely even, I'll create a two-zone area. You know, you could even create a three zone area in your charcoal grill, but somewhere where it's a little bit lower temp, so you could do indirect cooking and at the lower heat zone, that is where you're cooking the chicken so that it gets cooked through properly. And then you have a hotter, higher heat zone where you could finish it and you get that nice sear and crust. But with this, I just kind of keep it pretty even. A moderate heat and let it go kind of over medium heat, and that's where it can- it's because it's a thinner piece of meat and there is no bone and there's no skin, it does really cook really quickly in eight to 10 minutes. Amanda Shaprio: Yeah, it's true that the cuts without the bone are always going to cook faster, whether it's in the oven or on the stove top or on the grill, that's sort of a good thing to keep in mind. But the flip side of that is you have the, you run the risk of them drying out more easily. So... Andy Baraghani: I think also like, because this is boneless and skinless, you don't want any flare ups and you don't want anything to like burn too much going from you want that kind of perfect balance of like charred in spots, but not burnt. Um, and I think it's, uh, you can definitely get an easier way to kind of visualize it with the yogurt marinades for sure. Amanda Shaprio: Yeah, and then talk about the rest times. What's that doing for us? Andy Baraghani: Yeah, I'm adamant about that, and the truth is like bigger pieces of meat need longer resting time. Cuts of meat that have bone, uh, are gonna also need additional time. You've been cooking your meat, in this case, on the grill, it's hot, it's at a high temperature. You want to let it rest and relax again, you know? You want, it's all, it's all tensed up. It's like in the sun. Amanda Shaprio: I feel that. Andy Baraghani: Yeah, and then you're just trying to like, let it chill out, rest for five to 10 minutes, and you're letting the juices inside redistribute. Now, if you were trying to, uh, slice it up right off the grill, one, it's going to be just painful because you're dealing with a really hot piece of meat, but two, a lot of the juices are going to just expel out and not stay inside of the meat. Yes. Okay, so Jessie, Andy has been preaching the gospel of boneless skinless, why you should marinate, why thighs are great. And we're going to talk about your recipe in a minute just after the break, but I will say that your recipe, one of the two recipes you developed for this package, include none of those things. So what's your take on Andy's recipe? Is he full of BS over here? Jessie YuChen: No, I think it's really depends on like what result you're looking to in your chicken. I love the extra herbs that Andy adds to the recipes. Andy Baraghani: Herbs on top of herbs. Amanda Shaprio: Yeah, always got a love Andy's extra herbs. Okay, I'm here with senior staff writer, Alex Beggs to play a little game we are calling Cook, Marry, Grill, where Beggs tells us exactly what she's, you know, cooking, marrying, grilling, this season. Beggs take it away. Alex Beggs: Okay, so cook. All summer cookout situations need to be topped off with this Greek dessert known as galatopita, which my Greek friend helped me practice pronouncing several times before this podcast. Thank you very much. But on ba.com, we called it Ruffled Milk Pie, which is a nice poetic translation. Um, so this thing is like cheesecake meets baclava, meets like, I don't know, it's filo in custard cake and now raspberries. I don't think you need any more information to know what to do next. Amanda Shaprio: It looks so good. Uh, you could get the recipe in our August issue. It's also online and you can watch Samantha Seneviratne make it on our YouTube channel. We will drop those links in the show notes. Okay, so that's what your cooking Beggs, what are you going to marry this season? Alex Beggs: Uh, I want to marry these red, somehow fireproof, gloves that I got an ACE hardware. Because it makes fireplace tending and grilling so much better than using a towel or ruining an oven mitt you got an Anthropologie on sale. Um, if you shop online, they're called Panacea Fireplace Hearth gloves, which sound pretty rustic, uh, but you can get them at like- any brand will work in my opinion at, from any hardware store, a gardening store or Vermont country store if you're stocking up on floral night gowns, I just don't think you should pay more than 25 bucks for them. Amanda Shaprio: I love a good kitchen glove. I know these are more lumberjack style, but I have to tell my kitchen glove pick, which is that after I sawed half my thumb off on a mandolin once, I will not touch that thing without my blade resistant glove, which I didn't even know that thing until I found this one, I think mine is from Oxo. It's like silver and kind of shiny. I call it my Michael Jackson glove, which we'll link to that in the show notes too, just in case. And neither of these are sponsored. They're just gloves we love. Alex Beggs: Love gloves. Amanda Shaprio: Love to glove. Tell us what you're grilling. Alex Beggs: Uh, okay. So I've been grilling mushrooms all year. Shout out to winter grilling, because they're superior grilled vegetable. Uh, cool kid mushrooms. Like maitake tastes the best, but you have to be careful not to lose their frilly edges in the grill grades. So I'd send the grill cremini, baby bella mushrooms on skewers, which, I don't know, it makes me think of like little decapitated heads on spikes every time. But...mm yum. The char brings out that bacon-y quality that mushrooms have, and we have a new recipe from associate food editor, Rachel Gurjar, called yogurt marinaded mushrooms, and you get to grill flat bread in that recipe too. So double whammy. Amanda Shaprio: Yeah, that's a winner. That recipe is in the August issue as well. You can find it linked in our show notes, and we'll also throw in some of our favorite mushroom recipes, grilled, not grilled, et cetera. Beggs, that was an amazing addition of Cook, Marry, Grill. Thank you for joining us. I'm sure I'll talk to you again on this podcast very soon, but until then see you in the virtual office. Alex Beggs: Cool. Thanks for having me. Amanda Shaprio: Okay, we're going to take a quick break, and when we get back, we'll get into our discussion with Jessie and Andy and talk about Jessie's recipe for a whole grilled bird. I'm going to hop right into your recipe then, Jessie. So you actually did develop two recipes for this package because you are an overachiever. Which I think you knocked them both out of the park, to be honest, but I'm going to focus on the five spice spatchcock chicken. The other recipe, the hot honey wings, I encourage everyone to go look those up too. They look incredible, but the spatchcock chicken we got to talk about, because I am just so impressed that you are throwing an entire chicken on the grill, so let's get into it. Jessie YuChen: Yeah. Amanda Shaprio: First of all, tell me about spatchcocking. This is a technique that I always hear a lot about around Thanksgiving. I'm never in charge of the turkey, so I've never had to do it, but I know that it's helpful with poultry for certain reasons. What are those reasons? Jessie YuChen: Well, so spatchcocking is basically, you know, cutting it open and butterflying it and make it flatter. Unlike cooking in an oven, you're only grilling it on a direct surface, so it just makes it easier to cook evenly if the surface area is like open up. Another reason is to get like an even char just more surface area to be able to get that flame from the direct or indirect heat on the grill. Amanda Shaprio: Okay, cool. So, In this case, tell me how exactly you do the spatchcocking. Jessie YuChen: So you take a whole chicken and then you locate the backbone of the chicken. What I like to do is take a kitchen shear and you cut along the both sides of the backbone. You remove it, and then that is basically it. It's, you just like open up the bird once the backbone is removed and the bird is ready for seasoning. Amanda Shaprio: Wow. Okay. So you're making it sound really easy. Andy is spatchcocking as easy as Jessie's making it sound. Andy Baraghani: I say two tips. Jessie, I'm curious your thoughts on this. I mean, the truth is you can ask, you can go to your butcher and ask them to do this, but you know, this could also, it could also be a learning moment. I think just taking a paper towel and just patting it dry. One, you don't want to deal with a wet bird. That's slippery and well, no one likes a slippery bird. Amanda Shaprio: No wet birds. I think it's just the name of it always makes me think I'm doing something really aggressive like pounding it and like breaking something. And I have to hear like a crack or I have to have like a lot of muscle, but it doesn't sound like that's actually what's happening here. Andy Baraghani: I do you think there is a moment where we just kind of need to rebrand. Amanda Shaprio: New name. Andy Baraghani: A new name. It's yeah. I feel like spatchcocked anything doesn't really feel fun. So I'm like... Amanda Shaprio: Yeah, like spinal removal. That sounds a little, sounds a little bit too clinical. Jessie YuChen: I think what scares people when spatchcocking a chicken is like when you are using a knife to like, have the knife go in here and cut it. I think that could be potentially dangerous. But if you use kitchen shears to go into it and cut it, I think that's like a lot safer and a lot easier technique to do this. Amanda Shaprio: Yeah, sharp kitchen shears. Jessie YuChen: Yeah. It also hurts your knives. Yeah. Amanda Shaprio: So, okay. I've got my head around how we're prepping this now, or at least how we're cutting it, but then there's also a rub. Jessie YuChen: So I think with the dry rub, the good thing about it is that it's really easy to put together. It just like dry ingredients that you just put together and whisk together into a bowl and just simply applying that. And it usually doesn't need much time. And of course you can, you can put it up to a day if you want to, but like, I think 20 to 30 minutes, is really good. And the character that dry rubs give this recipe, it's like this nice crust that forms on the outside. Amanda Shaprio: What goes into your dry rub? Jessie YuChen: So for this dry rub, we have five spice powder, we have white pepper, salt, some MSG and some light brown sugar. As a grills, it will slowly caramelize up on the skin and on the surface of the chicken. Amanda Shaprio: That sounds so good. And if you, if you follow _Bon Appétit_ and have read us for a while, you know that we've talked a lot about MSG as a misunderstood, but super useful, versatile ingredient for home cooks. But let's say I don't have MSG on hand at the moment. Is there something else I should be using instead? Jessie YuChen: You could use mushroom powder, but I'd say MSG is really good to have on hand. You know, you can add it to your, any soup or stock or dry rubs. It just like salt, it seasons whatever you're cooking that's savory. Andy Baraghani: I agree. Amanda Shaprio: All right. So we have our whole chicken. What, how many pounds are we talking about here? Like what size chicken? Jessie YuChen: Around three to four pounds is a good size. Amanda Shaprio: Okay. So this chicken is taking up like, uh, a good part of, uh, you know, normal household grill. Like we're not, this is kind of the only thing you're grilling, or maybe you're getting some, some vege around it, like give me a sense of perspective here. Jessie YuChen: So for this specific recipe, while you're grilling the chicken, we're also like making a sauce with some charred scallion. So while the chicken is grilling, you char your scallion, you chop it up, and you chop up the garlic and you prep like all, everything that you need for the sauce while you're waiting for the chicken to be done. Amanda Shaprio: Oh, I love the efficiency of this. Jessie YuChen: Yeah. Yeah. When you have hungry guests waiting, you have to use your time wisely. Amanda Shaprio: Right? You can't just keep making them drinks. Jessie YuChen: I mean, you can do that too. Nothing wrong with that. Amanda Shaprio: Alright, so how exactly. Are we getting this whole chicken to cook on the grill? What's the strategy. What's our flipping timing, all that. Jessie YuChen: So for this recipe, I would oil the grates because only one side of the chicken has the skin on. So you prep the grill for both direct and indirect heat on different parts of the grill, uh, oil, the grate and then I will place the chicken on the indirect heat side of the grill, bone side down, not flipping it for like about 20 minutes. Amanda Shaprio: So that's with the skin down? Jessie YuChen: Yes. Amanda Shaprio: Got it. Jessie YuChen: Exactly. And after that, you move it to the direct heat and then just starting to flip it constantly, so it doesn't get too charred on the side, but you're getting that nice char from the direct high heat. This is what you need to do when you're grilling a whole chicken, you have to stick the mortar in it to check the temperature and- Amanda Shaprio: Yeah. Jessie YuChen: You need, yeah, you need it to read about like 165 for it to be safe. Amanda Shaprio: So I've heard different things about this. Like some people say with a whole bird, you can be a little bit under cause then you're going to let it sit and it will continue to come to temperature. Do either of you have an opinion on that? Andy Baraghani: I mean, I'm probably, I don't know. I'm going to get so many letters for this. It's like, I don't even know where to begin, but I think... Amanda Shaprio: It's okay, we'll have legal vet this. Andy Baraghani: Yes. I'm like, I tend to go maybe a touch under. I mean, I, uh, for chicken breasts, I definitely have pulled a just slightly under 150. Like I, I, I've been known to pull it out the 145 mark, but it's going to go up and it's going to be juicy and tender and no one has gotten sick, knock on wood. Amanda Shaprio: Okay. So Jessie, tell us a little bit more about this sauce that you're finishing. It's got the scallions that have been charred on the grill with the chicken. You said some garlic. How does that come together? Jessie YuChen: So, this is a very, very simple sauce. I grew up eating with soup dumplings or buns. So you charred your scallion and then you chop it up and then you chop up some Bird Eye chilies and some garlic, and you just mix everything together in a bowl. And that is your very simple sauce. You can basically put everything together in five minutes. Amanda Shaprio: It sounds so good. And so then you're letting your chicken rest, and then are you carving it and pouring the sauce all over, like the platter or like serving it for people? What do you like to do with it? Jessie YuChen: What I like to do is let people carve their own chicken. I like to just like put out a whole chicken and like the sauce. Amanda Shaprio: You're like do it yourself. Jessie YuChen: Yeah. I'm like do it yourself. I'm doing so much already. So you can, you can do this. And also I feel like that kind of retains the warmth or the heat of the chicken. They, if they like carve it out all at once and it's just gets cold faster, but I think everyone has different opinion on that. Andy Baraghani: Yeah. I don't really trust that most people to cut... That's like, I'll just, if I'm, if I'm cooking the bird I'll I'll uh, I'll uh, I'll cut it. Amanda Shaprio: He's like, "I'll do the work." Andy Baraghani: I'll do the work, but you know what? I'm very, uh, and this is actually it's so triggering. It's like it's, like the whole scene, and now we're going to Thanksgiving for some reason, but like the idea of like carving a bird or a big piece of meat in front of people, it doesn't even, it's not even that it makes me anxious because it doesn't, I feel good about carving it. It's more that the it's like, "okay, I'm dealing with a big piece of meat and I have like a big knife." It's like everybody needs to back off go away. Like, let me do what I need to do. And it might get a weird, and like, I might get really intimate in a way that you might not want to see, but it's okay. You don't need to see. I find- Amanda Shaprio: There's like splatter, there's sweat. Andy Baraghani: Yes. And I feel like if you're carving a big piece of meat, tell the listeners, "go to your corner, tell everybody to just like, oh, I'll meet you there in 10 minutes," and then do your thing. And that's it. And then you just, you just, uh, arrange it on a platter and then call it a day. They don't need to see you kind of break a sweat. That's fine. Amanda Shaprio: So, okay, no chicken recipe, reigns supreme. It just seems like, you know, different strokes for different folks. Do what makes you happy. Any concluding grilled poultry thoughts? Andy Baraghani: Don't drink while you're grilling. Just- Amanda Shaprio: I don't know about that, Andy. I don't know about that. Andy Baraghani: I don't know. Maybe I'm just getting more- Amanda Shaprio: I'm getting some real dad vibes. You're like, "carve it in the kitchen, alone." Well, thank you both for coming. You both are just incredibly kind and good colleagues to each other and to me, and also just a testament to how great these recipes are and all of the recipes in the grilled chicken package. Get it in the August issue on news stands. Thank you again and talk to you both soon. Thank you to our guests, Andy Baraghani and Jessie YuChen for joining me today, and our favorite, Alex Beggs for popping in. And I just want to say, if you're not all about the chicken, the August issue also has a whole feature on vegetarian grilling and tons more. You can follow Andy on Instagram by just typing in his name Andy Baraghani and watch all of his _Bon Appétit_ videos on our YouTube channel. And you can follow Jessie on Instagram as well @thelesscook. You can also read all of Alex Beggs Trader Joe's reviews, tons of other funny essays, and all of her writing on bonappétit.com. If you love the show, be sure to rate, review and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. It helps keep us _Food People_ employed. And you can follow _Bon Appétit_ on Instagram @bonappetitmag, and on Twitter @bonappetit. _Food People is produced_ by Bon Appétit in partnership with Pod People. Vishnu Vallabhaneni is our senior producer, Ginny Bloom is our show runner, Madison Lusby is our production manager, and Morgan Foose and Jessica Jones are our associate producers. This episode was engineered by Trae Budde and the music is by DJ Nu-Mark. June Kim and I provide editorial direction for this series. Special thanks to Matt Sav, Nico Steele, and Julie Shen. I'm your host, Amanda Shapiro, and I'll see you next week.