Amanda Shapiro: Hey, it's Amanda, and welcome back to _Food People_. So way back when I started at BA, I distinctly remember someone in a pitch meeting suggesting, very tentatively, that we developed some instant pot recipes. And bear with me, this is not an episode about the instant pot, but that pitch was met with a polite, but I would say damning silence. And the conversation quickly moved on, but the message was clear, we here at BA are _Food People _who care about cooking, not trendy gadgets. Well, you all know the end of the story. The instant pot won. Since then it's become a staple in millions of homes, and we have in fact developed recipes for it. Like our instant pot carnitas recipe I have to plug, they are incredible. And so when another countertop gadget started appearing everywhere, yes, I'm talking about the air fryer. I wondered if my colleagues at BA would take it seriously, or just write it off as another gimmick. Well, I'm here to tell you that it only took us a year, or so, but we did just publish a whole guide to air frying in our October issue with additional recipes online. And in today's episode, senior staff writer and intrepid air fryer tester, Alex Beggs is here to talk about what exactly the air fryer is, why people are so obsessed with it, and whether you, our dear listeners, need this thing on our countertops or not. Hey Beggs, welcome back to the show. Alex Beggs: Thanks for having me. Amanda Shapiro: What exactly is an air fryer? I look at it and I'm like, "Is this an Easy Bake Oven?" Alex Beggs: And as an early adopter of the Easy Bake Oven of circa 1991, it reminded me of that too. And I think that's why I was especially excited to get one and wanted one. Amanda Shapiro: Did the Easy Bake Oven actually work with a light? Was it the light that was cooking your food? Alex Beggs: Yeah. And I tried to make a comparison in my piece and I believe our fact checking department was like, "No, no, no, no, no, no. No too inaccurate." So in spirit, it's an Easy Bake Oven in, in... Amanda Shapiro: Okay, so what is it? Alex Beggs: Practicality, it ain't. Uh, so what is it? It is a counter top convection oven. So convection heat is just heat that's being circulated by fans. It's just hot air. Amanda Shapiro: Yeah. So my oven has a setting that says "bake" with a little fan next to it. And then there's another button that's normal bake. So, is my oven also a convection oven? Alex Beggs: Well, I'm not there. I don't know. But yeah, it sounds like it's it sure sounds like it. So this is an incredibly ingenious rebrand of convection. But the other huge difference is that its size is so convenient. That scientifically speaking, it's smaller so that heats up faster and it cooks faster because there's just smaller space for that heat to circulate. Amanda Shapiro: All right. So it's a little oven with a fan. Why has it become this like cultural phenomenon? Alex Beggs: Well, I, I think that comes down to the promise, and the dream, and the fantasy that it, that it's healthy. Amanda Shapiro: Oh my God. Alex Beggs: So, so I think that's why it's a phenomenon. People don't want to admit it, but that's an underlying draw towards it that you're going to be frying with air instead of oil when in fact- Amanda Shapiro: Ah, the dream. Alex Beggs: The myth. But in fact, it is very crucial to cook with oil. You need that so that your food can brown and cook. Amanda Shapiro: There's no way to actually fry something, to get something crispy, without some amount of oil. Alex Beggs: Fat... yeah. Amanda Shapiro: We can not actually fry it with air. Alex Beggs: No. I mean, you can dehydrate. You can get like extremely wrinkly green bean. Um, but whether the fat is, you know, coming from inside the food itself or your adding it, like yeah. You need that fat, but the numbers are there that instead of, you know, dunking something in a pot of oil, and just spraying it with oil, you consume fewer calories just that most people aren't using it in a deep fried way. They're using it for cooking everything. Like I just made a quesadilla in it for lunch, and I made fish in it this week and I made green beans last night. So you're just using it like you would your oven, but you're using it instead because it's smaller and faster than your oven. And maybe you're not cooking, you know, a whole Thanksgiving dinner every night, so you don't need all that space. Amanda Shapiro: Okay. Wait, I have a question though about this, about this faster thing. So my big issue with the instant pot was that like, it was kind of a misnomer because it often took a really long time to heat up... Alex Beggs: Ugh, yes. Amanda Shapiro: Things that I actually could have cooked just as quickly on the stove, I was now supposed to use this gadget for. So is the air fryer actually faster? Alex Beggs: Oh, definitely. And I gave my instant pot away for the same reason, that it would take 15 minutes to come to pressure. So for example, how long does it take your oven to preheat? Amanda Shapiro: Oh God... the amount of time it takes for me to, like, chop all my vegetables and like get everything ready to go, maybe like 10 or 15 minutes? Alex Beggs: Yeah. So mine got to 425 for my green beans in five minutes, and then it cooked the green beans in 10 minutes, and they got like nice and brown and cooked. So like that was super fast. But again, it depends on the food because like fake scientists, I'm putting on my fake scientist goggles right now. Amanda Shapiro: Yeah, put on our white lab coat. Alex Beggs: I mean, meatballs, and the meatballs took as long as they would have cooked in the oven. So I wonder if it has to do with the density of the food? You know, there was just like that meat versus the green beans have a lot of water that's getting cooked out. If actually this was the stuff that they covered in science class, I would have probably paid more attention than I did. Amanda Shapiro: Right, "how to make your food most delicious." Alex Beggs: A different kind of podcast would have these answers. But I'm just here to tell you I've had the fastest green beans of my life. Amanda Shapiro: Okay. I mean, I have to say like you're selling it pretty hard and I'm kind of on board so far. You clearly did a lot of testing with the air fryer before you wrote this article. I remember talking to you about it when you were first, when you were first getting one. How did you decide which air Fryer to get? Alex Beggs: Well, you know, I am the biggest fan of the magazine, Cook's Illustrated. Amanda Shapiro: Oh yeah. Alex Beggs: Because they're the ones who actually know science better than myself. Amanda Shapiro: We love you guys. Alex Beggs: Um, so shout out to Cook's Illustrated. This, I like legally have to save second best food magazine, but I'll leave that to the judge and jury. Anyway, uh, so Cook's Illustrated's top rated one was the Breville Oven Air. And there's two of them, there's like a big one called like the pro and then there's a smaller size. And they're just toaster ovens that have air fry capabilities. So... Amanda Shapiro: I've seen these. Alex Beggs: It's big. Amanda Shapiro: Yes, they look like spaceship, toaster ovens. Alex Beggs: And I was like, "Oh, I need a toaster." So that was in a special draw. And now I have a whole like, toast aside about toast in the air fryer. But, that's how I decided on that one. I love all Breville products. I just felt like trust in the brand, whereas if you start searching air fryers, there are brands you've never heard of, ever, and they look like dinosaur eggs. So mine is a toaster oven style. And then Rachel, our coworker, got Cosori's, which is a basket style air fryer. And it has this drawer that pulls out and that has the air frying basket in it. So they're different. Amanda Shapiro: That's what I see on the internet. I feel like I'm always seeing people like pulling out the basket and seeing the magical crispy things inside. Alex Beggs: Yeah, and the design is different. So I think the basket air fryer is better at some things than the one I have. It's just kind of depends on how much you're going to cook in it because the toaster ovens just have bigger capacity. Like I can get two layers of stuff in mine. Amanda Shapiro: Wow. Alex Beggs: The baskets are only going to be able to fit so much food, but they also have a, like a grease trapping tray. And it, that makes it easier to cook drippy things. I have to put parchment in mine almost every time I cook something because like an oven, or toaster oven, like you don't want stuff dripping on the floor of it. One of my biggest disaster was when I just put a ton of mushrooms in it, and they're so high in water and it like smoke and steam was just billowing from the machine and I was panicking. Amanda Shapiro: Oh God. So wait, what about with the nachos or the quesadilla, are you putting them on a surface, or they're just going right onto the trey? Alex Beggs: I put parchment inside of the basket. You might flip the food, you're still getting air on all angles, but that's just necessary for that machine. So today when I made my quesadilla, I sprayed both sides of the tortillas with oil and I put it right in the basket without parchment, just to like, see what would happen. And the cheese oozed out and when the cheese started dripping, um, then there was some smoke... Amanda Shapiro: You did it just to see what would happen. Beggs! Alex Beggs: And now I've got like a mess to clean, but it wasn't incredible quesadilla. Like the tortilla puffed up and it was very, you know, like elephant ears at a food festival. It was kind of like had that quality and I was so happy. Amanda Shapiro: So if you have the basket version, you don't have to worry about that. You just pop, you just throw your nachos in and what happens? Like where does all the guck go? Alex Beggs: I mean, it has to be cleaned. And everyone complains about their noise and the smoking. I feel like that happens a bit with these. The noise is from the fan, so you can't avoid that. Amanda Shapiro: Yeah. So what's the price difference between the two air fryers we recommended? We've got the Cosori basket air fryer and then the Breville Toaster Oven fryer that you used. Alex Beggs: It's all over the place. I mean, I think the one we recommended is a hundred books. Of course that goes up and down. The Breville one is way more. It's like 350 depending on what size is that. Amanda Shapiro: Is that cause you're supposedly getting like a multi cooker? Like it's also... Alex Beggs: Yeah, they say you're getting like 57 things. And of course I was like, "Yes, I want the one that has a dehydrator and I'm never going to use it." but yeah, I mean, it is like if you don't have an oven, which my sister once moved into a tiny apartment in DC that didn't, it would be a legit replacement for a full size oven, I think. For one or two people. Amanda Shapiro: Oh yeah. If you're in a college dorm situation, I could see that being a game changer. Alex Beggs: But, it's so much bigger. You really have to have the counter space and a lot of people do, so air fryers are popular. Amanda Shapiro: So let's talk about what makes a good air fryer recipe. What do you like to cook in this little thing? Alex Beggs: I make Bon Appétit's sesame tofu and broccoli. Amanda Shapiro: Oh yes, so good. Alex Beggs: I commented on the recipe, or reviewed it, and gave my like inner fryer alts because that recipe is so awesome in the air fryer. Uh, and so you coat the tofu in cornstarch and then spray it with olive oil. Amanda Shapiro: Yes, that recipe is great. That's great to know that it is air fryer friendly. And also, so kind of you to write that in the comments of the recipe. Anonymous in Michigan. Alex Beggs: No, I write Alex Beggs. I want to be, I want to be transparent, but then I realize maybe I, I, I'm leaving like five-star reviews cause I love everything. Um, and I work here, but yeah, I leave reviews. I... Amanda Shapiro: Oh, I know you do. Alex Beggs: I'm trying to be helpful. Amanda Shapiro: I have stumbled on enough recipes and seen an Alex Beggs review to know that it's not a one off. Alex Beggs: I'm like, "Whoever developed this most events so handsome, so smart." Amanda Shapiro: Yeah, and it's an Andy Baraghani recipe. Alex Beggs: Okay, so speaking of Andy Baraghani. I was talking to Andy about how he makes toast. And Andy has developed like 47 recipes for toast. So like there's no one else you ask. Amanda Shapiro: Of course he has. Let me guess flaky salt and lemon and a sprinkle of... Alex Beggs: Well that's at the end. Like before, he slices bread really thick. And then, it gets cooked in a pan and like a cast iron with oil till it's shallow fried, and... Amanda Shapiro: He shallow fries his toast, of course. Alex Beggs: And it gets almost burnt golden brown, like shattering crust, amazing. And then of course he like puts a lot of toppings on it, but just that method of cooking it in oil. So I'm like, "Oh, that's really nice. But, when I want toast in the morning, I want it right now." So I preheat the air fryer, which takes, like I said, five minutes, sometimes less. Depending, maybe how hot my kitchen is. And I spray a thick piece of toast on both sides with oil and put it in there. And in seven minutes, it's that restaurant quality. Like crazy shattering, so brown looking, and I am obsessed with that. Which is the most boring sounding thing, but I don't know. I can never settle for dry toast again. You can put that on my tombstone. After I die of too much toast. Amanda Shapiro: "She never settled for dry toast. RIP." Alex Beggs: Like they're going to find inside my body like that my blood is 80% aerosol olive oil. "Oh, that's what did it." Amanda Shapiro: Those are some of the sounds that a basket air fryer gives you and sounds that associate food editor, Rachel Gurjar knows all too well. Rachel, I know that you developed three different recipes all to be made in the air fryer, and I want to talk about them today. First of all, welcome to the show. Thanks for coming on again. Rachel Gurjar: Excited to be here. Amanda Shapiro: So let's start with the one that ran in our October print package, the sesame coconut chicken tenders. Sounds really delicious, talk me through the recipe. Like what makes it, what makes it different from any other chicken tender recipe? Rachel Gurjar: Well, for starters, I used a combination of shredded coconut with Japanese breadcrumbs, Panco. So usually, you know, either people will use just Panco but here I wanted to add some coconut just because when you toast coconut, A., the aroma is amazing. And it kind of like takes coconut to another level. There's just this like slight sweetness to it, it's toasty, it's very warm and inviting. Amanda Shapiro: Yes. I've been thinking about this so much, because I think Sarah Jampel developed the coconut tofu stir fry recipe. Have you made that yet? I've made it twice. And you throw on coconut at the end of the stir fry onto the tofu and it gets that exact quality that you're describing. It's so delicious. Rachel Gurjar: Yeah, it's been on my list. It is a very, very popular recipe for a reason. So next time I have tofu I'm going to be making that. Amanda Shapiro: Yeah. Okay, so you added coconut. What else? Rachel Gurjar: I wanted to keep it fairly simple, but I flavor the dry coating with some onion powder, garlic powder, and cayenne to add just a little bit of kick. You know, usually you will add flavor by way of sauteing, or adding them fresh. But I think... Amanda Shapiro: Aromatics like garlic, ginger, onion, things like that. Rachel Gurjar: Yes, from the allium family. But I think like dry ground up spices are just kind of such an easy, quick way to add the same effect. Amanda Shapiro: Right into the coating. Rachel Gurjar: Right into the coating. And then make like a standard breading station with some egg. And you coat the chicken tenders with that. So when you're frying, you know, the entire piece of meat or whatever you're frying gets coated in fat because we're using an air fryer. You know, I did not want to drizzle oil on this because when you're drizzling, I think you don't have control over where exactly the fat is falling on, you know, the chicken tenders or whatever you want to fry. Amanda Shapiro: You don't get a hundred percent surface area. I love that you used oil spray. I feel like I can't think of another _Bon Appétit _recipe that has ever called for oil from a spray can. Maybe like a baking recipe where you're coating the dish or whatever, but I have it on hand all the time. So this seems like a case where it's really useful to have that spray oil. Okay, so you're spraying the whole chicken with the coating on it, and then you're putting it in the air fryer? Rachel Gurjar: Yes, so you might have to do this in two batches, but you lay the chicken tenders out in a single layer and that's it. And then you cook for about seven minutes on each side at 400 degrees fahrenheit. Amanda Shapiro: Got it. And did you have the one that, that we recommended in the issue, the Cosori Air Fryer Max XL? Rachel Gurjar: Yes. Amanda Shapiro: They make it sound extremely roomy. I have to say. Rachel Gurjar: I have that one. I really like it. Amanda Shapiro: Okay, cool. All right. So chicken tenders, anything else part of this recipe? I see, I see a sauce. Rachel Gurjar: Yes. So there is a kind of like peanut butter, creamy, spicy sauce, which has made with smooth peanut butter. But if you like chunky, feel free to use that as well. Amanda Shapiro: I'm team smooth. Rachel Gurjar: Team smooth, me too. Then a little bit of garlic, some lemon, and a little bit of Sriracha. You could certainly use any other hot sauce that you like, and some maple syrup, and salt. So it's kind of like the perfect combination of a little bit sweet, little salty, lemony. Amanda Shapiro: It's like a dipping sauce. Rachel Gurjar: It is a dipping sauce. Amanda Shapiro: Dipping, dunking... Rachel Gurjar: Drizzle. Amanda Shapiro: Drinking. Rachel Gurjar: It's so delicious. I feel like this recipe and my subconscious mind was inspired by chicken satay. Amanda Shapiro: Yeah. Getting those vibes for sure. Rachel Gurjar: Yes. Amanda Shapiro: Let's move on to another recipe. Which one do you want to talk about next? Rachel Gurjar: Let's talk about the brussel sprouts. Amanda Shapiro: Oh my God. Favorite winter vegetable. Rachel Gurjar: Yes. Amanda Shapiro: Crispy turmeric lemon, butter, ginger brussel sprouts? This can't be the real name. Rachel Gurjar: We shortened it for the website. Amanda Shapiro: Okay good. Rachel Gurjar: Crispy brussel sprouts with turmeric honey butter. Amanda Shapiro: Okay. Crispy brussel sprouts with turmeric honey butter. Wow. That means there's still a lot going on in that recipe. Why don't you break it down for us. Rachel Gurjar: Okay. So I love brussel sprouts. Whenever the holidays roll around, and I'm making my menu, it's like, "Oh, do we need to fry brussel sprouts?" And everyone's like, "yes." And I'm like, "but it's so much work. It's so messy." And I've done it in the past. Amanda Shapiro: Deep fried? Rachel Gurjar: Deep fried Brussels sprouts are so delicious. Amanda Shapiro: They're so good. Rachel Gurjar: They're so good. And this recipe is simple as well. Just, you know, have brussel sprouts tossed in some olive oil and salt. And then you air fry them, again at 400 for, you know, about eight minutes, and you kind of shake halfway through. So with the air fryer, this is a technique that is mentioned in the guide book that they give. It's like when you are making fries, or making something like brussel sprouts, or any other vegetables. Like halfway through the cooking process, you need to kind of take the basket out and give it a good shake. So, that way the crunchy bottom, it kind of like moves everything around and ensures that all the surface area of the vegetables are being covered. Amanda Shapiro: Okay. And they cook through. Rachel Gurjar: They cook through. They're perfectly crispy on the outside and cooked through in the center and the leaves, you know, the leaves that fall out of the brussel sprouts... Amanda Shapiro: Yes, the best part. Rachel Gurjar: The best part. Amanda Shapiro: All right. Rachel Gurjar: They're so crunchy. Amanda Shapiro: Okay, I'm sold. But talk to me about this hot turmeric honey, everything in it glaze. Rachel Gurjar: I think you'll see that a lot in my recipes, like balance of flavors, like that's what I chase and texture. Then this recipe is like, perfect, because you get all of the crunch and charring, charredness from the brussel sprouts. And then I made this turmeric lemon butter sauce. It's basically you bloom some ginger and turmeric in, um, a little bit of olive oil, and then you hit it with a little bit of honey, some cold butter, and some lemon juice. And you kind of emulsify this to make this like sweet, sticky, tangy, kind of glazy sauce. And then when... you can make this in advance, that's the great part. So you can make this two, three days in advance and then once you're ready to use just heat it up a little bit. Hit it with a couple of tablespoons of water to kind of emulsify it again. And then once the breast sprouts put ready, you just drizzle it on. Amanda Shapiro: Oh my God. See, these are air fryer recipes, but secretly you just developed some amazing sauce recipes. Rachel, thank you for breaking down these two recipes. The third recipe you developed is a spiced potato wedges with yogurt tahini sauce. And we will link to that as well in the show notes, they all sound so good and a great way to use the air fryer. Thanks so much for coming on Rachel, and for talking about that. Rachel Gurjar: Of course, it's been a pleasure. Amanda Shapiro: We're going to take a quick break, and when we get back, we will hop back in with Beggs to get into the deep psychology of why we're so obsessed with these little gadgets that are supposed to make cooking so much easier. So Rachel passed along a few great recipes that really excel in the air fry. And it made me think, can you just take any recipe and stick it in an air fryer or do I have to adjust it at all? Alex Beggs: Yeah, I think what I realized, and this doesn't apply to every food, but if it's a food you would normally have cooked in the oven, try air frying it. Just cut your cook time in half or cut it 10 minutes short. If it's something that you would have normally cooked on the stove top. So I'm thinking crispy skinned fish, like when you really want that crispy skin, or a sear on a pork chop or browned mushrooms, I still do those on the stove top. Amanda Shapiro: This is very confusing to me because this thing is called an air fryer, and yet you're telling me it's... Alex Beggs: Air roaster, yeah. Amanda Shapiro: It should be used in place of my oven. It should be it, yes. It's an air oven and I should continue shallow frying certain things that I want crispy on the stove. But, but also for those people, I guess there's people who deep fry at home, it's a good substitute for that. Alex Beggs: Yeah, I think back to your question about adapting recipes, it's so specific to the machine and the recipe and the makeup of those foods and how saucy they are, or how watery they are, and what you're going for. But I think it's easy to adapt stuff because you just change your cooking time a little bit. Like assume it's going to cook faster and then keep an eye on it. Amanda Shapiro: So going back to our Easy Bake Oven, say you're a child. Baby child Beggs, and your parents get an air fryer. What are you so excited to make as a ten-year-old? Someone who can responsibly handle an air fryer. Alex Beggs: I would have absolutely not been allowed to at ten cause I like crashed our Barbie convertible. Um, so, uh, but okay, so the most inspiring thing I saw on TikTok was someone who air fried an Uncrustable, which is... Amanda Shapiro: Yes, I saw that. Alex Beggs: The crustless peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. And so they took a cookie cutter, cut out the donut hole from the center of the Uncrustable and oiled it, maybe cinnamon sugared it. If they didn't, they should have. Air fried it and basically had a peanut butter and jelly donut complete with a donut hole sidecar. And if you're 10 or emotionally 10, as I am, uh, then that's irresistible. Amanda Shapiro: All right. So we're going to shift gears a little bit and talk a little bit about people looking for gadgets to make their cooking lives easier. So, as I mentioned at the top, everyone at BA had to take on the instant pot when it came out. I would say like the digital editors at the time were obviously way more excited about it. And we wrote like five recipes to adapt for the instant pot. But when it came to actually getting us to develop original recipes for it, it was just a no-go conversation. So, now, fast forward 2021, this air fryer comes out. How long were you pitching this story before we actually did it? Alex Beggs: Well, it was funny when you were doing your intro I was like, Amanda, the air fryer was like big in 2018 and we're, we're like still a few years behind this. But no, no, no. I mean, it really took off last year. I think I read in 2020 sales of air fryers increased 24%. It's surpassed instant pot in Google trends. So last year was definitely the biggest year yet. This thing is undeniably popular and valid of our coverage. And I think it's exciting and fun. So I was so happy. Amanda Shapiro: And I think the point is it doesn't have to last forever in our kitchens to be worth providing people with recipes to use it because of something a lot of people have now, and we should be meeting people where they are. So here we are. It just is funny to me that this craze around new kitchen products seems to get so much more buzz when the promise is faster, but also healthier, but also more delicious food. Like can it ever actually check all of those boxes? Alex Beggs: I dunno, this is like a question for God. Amanda Shapiro: That's what we do at _Food People_. We ask the hard questions. Alex Beggs: We're trying to eat healthier. We really are. Well we still want French fries. Like that is just humanity. We try to look to outside sources, to devices and salad dressings rather than ourselves when we're trying to save ourselves. That is also a constant. I mean, it's just a little oven. It's like what you put inside of it and how you cook and how you eat... like a lot of this is up to you. So that's where I think some people are like, I'm going to get an air fryer and I will default be healthier. It's like, well, it's up to you what you put inside it. You can roast broccoli or you can make Trader Joe's fried ravioli. Amanda Shapiro: Or you can fry an Uncrustable. Alex Beggs: Or you can fry an Uncrustable, which is cool. I was also thinking that philosophically, because this is _Food People_, the philosophy, the food philosophy podcast, I learned that like, we never stop, and you can put this on a movie poster, we never stopped believing in miracles. And I liked that about humanity. Like I want to believe in a healthier, faster french fry. I want to, um but... Amanda Shapiro: We're just strivers at heart. Alex Beggs: Let us hold onto that hope. That's what the air fryer is. So the million dollar answer to the question, are air fryers just a bunch of hot air is yes, but also they're great. And if you want one, you should get one. Yup. Amanda Shapiro: Beggs, thank you so much for coming on today. It was incredibly enlightening actually, and so fun as always. And we will have you back on very soon. Alex Beggs: Well thanks for having me, Amanda. Amanda Shapiro: Thank you to our guests, Alex Beggs and Rachel Gurjar for lending their voices to the podcast. If you want to read more on Beggs' air fryer experimentation and get the air fryer she loves, check out the links in our show notes. We'll add Rachel's recipes and her air fryer favorite in there as well. And if you haven't already give Rachel a follow on Instagram @rachelgurjar and get all of Rachel's delicious recipes and more of Beggs' hilarious writing on bonappétit.com. If you love the show, be sure to rate, review and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. It helps keep us _Food People_ employed. And you can follow_ Bon Appétit_ on Instagram @bonappétitmag and on Twitter @bonappétit. _Food People_ is produced by _Bon Appétit_ in partnership with Pod People. Vishnu Vallabhaneni is our senior producer, Ginny Bloom is our showrunner, Madison Lusby is our production manager, and Morgane Fouse and Jessica Jones are our associate producers. This episode was engineered by Trae Budde and the music is by DJ Nu-Mark. June Kim and I provide editorial direction for the series. Special thanks to Matt Sav, Nico Steele, and Julie Shen. I'm your host, Amanda Shapiro. And I'll see you next week.