Amanda Shapiro: Hey, _Food People_. I'm Amanda Shapiro, and welcome back to the show. So it used to be that you heard about a new and up-and-coming chef when they opened their first restaurant. The critics would come, they'd eat, they'd review, and if the chef was lucky, then they would be on the culinary map. But in recent years, I've seen that storyline change. More and more chefs are growing their reputation years before they have their own restaurant, if ever, and they're doing it in a lot of ways. And one way that has really stood out is the pop-up. Pop-ups have leveled the playing field by removing the expense of having a permanent brick and mortar restaurant. But as today's guests will also tell us, pop-ups come with their own set of challenges. Our first guest today, Rashida Holmes was born in New York to Barbadian immigrants. Inspired by her mother, she decided to become a cook and she moved to LA in 2013, where she became the chef de cuisine at a restaurant called Botanica. In 2019 she left Botanica and started the west Indian food pop-up, Bridgetown Roti, which has since been reviewed in The LA times, The New York Times and mentioned just about everywhere else. Also joining us from LA is Brandon Gray, owner and chef of Brandoni Pepperoni, a, you guessed it, pizza pop-up. Brandon was born and raised in LA and actually started cooking in the Navy before going to cooking school and working in some of LA's best-known restaurants before setting out on his own with his new pop-up. Brandon and Rashida, I'm so excited to welcome you to_ Food People_. Rashida Holmes: Glad to be here. Brandon Gray: Hello. Hello, world. Amanda Shapiro: Welcome. So you're both speaking to us today LA, which I want to hear about whether LA really is the particularly great city for pop-ups because there are just tons and tons that are on our radar from out there. But let's get a little bit more personal first. Why did you both decide to go the pop-up route? Rashida, why don't you kick us off. Rashida Holmes: For me, it was a combination of factors. One being that I had an idea of what kind of food I wanted to make, but I didn't have any resources to turn that into a restaurant. It was just an idea. Amanda Shapiro: And what was that idea? Rashida Holmes: Well, the idea was that I spent a lot of time working a lot of other people's restaurants, cooking a lot of other culture's food, and I was finding it to be unfulfilling. So I thought, I gotta kind of find my own way and I kind of want to be doing something different culinary wise. So that's when I thought about Bridgetown Roti and how I couldn't really get the kind of Caribbean food that I grew up eating anywhere in Los Angeles. I realized that there was a gap in the market and it was something that was super personal to me. Amanda Shapiro: Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. How about you, Brandon? Brandon Gray: I actually started my business from a joke in January of 2020. I was actually thinking about getting out of the restaurant industry as a whole. I think I was just tired of the long treacherous work hours, low pay and just not getting the respect that I think I had deserved. And a chef colleague of mine had asked me if I wanted to help facilitate his pop-up. Amanda Shapiro: Yeah. Brandon Gray: And I didn't have anything really going on at the time. I was doing some catering gigs, but nothing that was really sticking. I ran his kitchen for about a week and a half. And I think having worked in the culinary industry for about 17 years at that point, I thought that I can do it. And why not better during the pandemic to, you know, try. I took Brandoni Pepperoni as a concept that was ultimately supposed to change every single month and jokes on me because I've been doing pizza for the last year and a half. Amanda Shapiro: Were you going to change the name from Brandoni Pepperoni to something else every month? Brandon Gray: That was definitely a thought. Because you can't have Brandoni Pepperoni and rice bowls at the same time. Amanda Shapiro: I really want to hear about how you two produce all this food that you make when you don't have a brick and mortar. Are you using commercial space or working with some other type of limited space? Brandon Gray: Yeah, I think my prep situation's a little bit different. You know, I have about 950 square feet and I'd say maybe 400, 500 square feet is predominantly the living room slash kitchen slash dining room areas. So the dining room area, there's like a fridge. I have a low boy. I have a dough machine, like... Amanda Shapiro: The live work space though. That sounds, that sounds real. Brandon Gray: It's intense. I have every kitchen gadget that a fine dining restaurant has. There's sou vide machines, there's a smoker. Like I actually have a smoker inside of this apartment. Amanda Shapiro: Are you kidding me? Brandon Gray: I'm not, I wish I was. Rashida Holmes: I got one in my house. I got one in my backyard. I get you, man. Amanda Shapiro: I mean backyard, yeah. I hope that thing vents out Brandon. Rashida Holmes: For real though. Brandon Gray: I gotta, I gotta figured out. I got figured out. Amanda Shapiro: Rashida, your wife would never go for Brandon's situation. Rashida Holmes: No, no. Nope, nope, nope, nope. Nope. I mean, I still store, like I bring home goat to smoke in a smoker in the back. I store stuff in our shed that she's not really that happy about that either, but you know, you gotta make it work when you're working in limited space. Amanda Shapiro: We're not talking live goat? We're talking the, the meat. Rashida Holmes: The meat, the meat, the meat. Brandon Gray: Goat in the bathroom. Amanda Shapiro: I keep my little goat family. I thought I heard something. Let's switch gears again. I want to hear more about your thoughts on the pop-up route to go. To me, it seems like a lower barrier to entry. Do you see it as a viable path for people who may not be able to run restaurants otherwise? Brandon Gray: I think perfect timing is the best thing that I could possibly say what happened during the pandemic. And it sucks that something so devastating to the world had to happen in order for the business to succeed, but you just had to take it with a grain of salt. And I think once the George Floyd's situation sort of happened, there were a lot of publications sort of reaching out and publicizing black owned businesses. And I'll speak for myself, I didn't know how to feel about it to be honest. It was like, where was this support before? Amanda Shapiro: Yeah. Brandon Gray: And I think I was a little down and out to be completely honest, because I was like are people only supporting this business because it was a black owned business and they felt that that was their time to support. It's a double-edged sword, I think. Amanda Shapiro: Yeah. Wondering whether it's about performative support or whether it's really a endorsement of your food and what you're doing. Brandon Gray: Right. I don't know what a pop-up looks like longevity wise, because I think at a certain point, Rashida is going to outgrow her space. I'm going to outgrow my apartment selling pizzas. Is the next route and the actual brick and mortar? And then I think the biggest scare that I have is, was my business only beneficial for the pandemic? Are people going to still want to have fine dining pizza six months from now? So there's a lot of things that like I'm recalibrating and thinking, is this a long-term thing? So there's a ton of emotions for me I think. Amanda Shapiro: That kind of relates back to what we were saying at the top about Los Angeles, which in my opinion, if there's any big city where people like to eat nice food at home instead of go out, it's probably LA right? Like people love to be in their homes. They constantly want something new and they want to see you reinvent again and again. Rashida Holmes: I mean, I think that Brandon and I are kind of in the same boat where we've reached a point in which deciding what the next vision is, is kind of what needs to happen sooner rather than later. Because I'm getting calls from people who are like, I, "we have this, are you interested? We have this, are you interested?" And having been in the restaurant industry for a long time, I don't want to go back to a place where I'm beating up my body and working long hours. And I do it now, but it's on my own terms. Amanda Shapiro: Yeah. That makes all the difference, huh? Rashida Holmes: So. Finding what the next step is, and I'm lucky I have a lot of people around me who support me businessly and professionally that they're giving me a lot of grace to figure that out. But at the same time, time is of the essence. Pop-ups are valuable for people like Brandon and myself. It gave us an opportunity to find ourselves on this podcast in the first place. You know, 18 months later here, we are talking about what we've been through. But at the same time, it is limiting. You know, growth happens. That's, that's the nature of business and it's about figuring out how you want that growth to look that's challenging. Amanda Shapiro: Okay. We're going to take a quick break, and when we get back, we will jump back into our conversation with Rashida and Brandon to talk about two iconic dishes from their menus and the advice you need to hear if you're thinking about starting your own pop-up. Okay, let's get into some of the food that both of you are cooking in your small apartments and in your commissary kitchens. Rashida, let's start with you. Tell us a bit more about the origins of your menu. Rashida Holmes: So it kind of comes from both sides of my family. My mom was born in Barbados. She came over here when she was in her eighth or ninth grade, like 14, 15 to live with my grandparents who were already here. On my grandfather's side, he was born in Panama. And then all that family is in Barbados and Trinidad as well. I remember when I was 10 years old, we went to visit Barbados with my uncle on my dad's side. But growing up, both my parents are they're New Yorkers, really true and true. We moved from New York when I was a young age, but we always visited New York. And for me, that was really where I got outside of the home, you know, Caribbean food influence. Going to places like Golden Cross and getting beef patties every time I was in New York. And going to this roti shop on Flatbush and getting roti's there. And then over the holidays, my mom would always pull out her Caribbean favorites. Christmas dinners and New Year's Eve was all peas and rice and curry chicken, and oxtails. All those foods kind of meant home when I didn't really have a home city. My home city was the food that we ate. And that's kinda the basis of what Bridgetown is. Amanda Shapiro: Is there a dish that you would say is representative of the menu at Bridgetown roadie, or that has become sort of an iconic dish there? Rashida Holmes: Yeah, I would say the oxtail patty is probably the thing that people come back for the most. One of my dads go to, you know, dad dinners was stewed oxtails. Amanda Shapiro: So good. Rashida Holmes: That he learned from his Aunt Vi. I eat it all the time, I haven't gotten sick of it yet. So that's how I know it's still good. Amanda Shapiro: So, how does it come together? You braise the oxtail. Tell me how the dish gets made. Rashida Holmes: Sure. We make all our curry powders in house. So this is a fenugreek based curry powder that we seasoned the oxtails with, with salt overnight. We then deep fry them to sear them instead of searing in a pan. Amanda Shapiro: Wow. So how did you come up with the idea of deep frying oxtails? I was watching, um, there's this really great Chinese Jamaican chef in Toronto, whose name is escaping me right now. Brandon Gray: I know where you're talking about. Amanda Shapiro: You're talking about Craig Wong? Rashida Holmes: Yes. I was watching a special on him and he was talking about his oxtails and he, he deep fried them and I was like, genius. Amanda Shapiro: What does your family think of that non traditional method? Rashida Holmes: They don't need to know everything. Brandon Gray: Something tells me they're going to find out now. Rashida Holmes: Yeah. And then we braise them in a curry paste, chicken stock, and blue mountain molasses, which is like a- Amanda Shapiro: Wow. Rashida Holmes: ...brown sugar. That's the key ingredient. If you don't have that, you don't get the like sticky oxtail texture on there. And then we reduce the braising liquid and pour that in and then use the panko to kind of soak it up so it stays nice and juicy. Amanda Shapiro: Mmm sounds so good. This sounds like something best eaten, hot and fresh and right away. Rashida Holmes: Absolutely. Absolutely. For sure. Amanda Shapiro: Yes, ship em... I guess you can't really ship him out here, but maybe someday. Deep freeze and... Rashida Holmes: We were working on it. I think it's definitely one of our future plans is to be able to ship some frozen patties, like nice high quality stuff. Amanda Shapiro: I live around the corner from a Golden Cross, but I will be first on your wait list for that too. Rashida Holmes: You got it. Amanda Shapiro: Okay, Brandon, I want to talk to you about some of the dishes on your menu. Obviously it's a pizza menu. How do you come up with them? Do they just spring into your head? What inspires you? Brandon Gray: What inspires me is the Santa Monica farmer's market. I think the fact that California has an abundance of produce year round makes a business like mine just a little bit easier just because I like to think to myself that I don't do the hard work. I think the farmers do the hard work by growing everything. And I just pay respect to them by caressing their ingredients. Amanda Shapiro: It's very intimate. It's a trend that has now swept a lot of restaurants of naming the farms where your ingredients come from. And I know some people roll their eyes at that, but I think it's more rare to see that on a pizza place's menu. And so I really appreciate that, that you really do seem to give credit to all of the farms that you source your ingredients from. Brandon Gray: I mean, honestly, without them Brandoni's is potentially just like another pizza place. Amanda Shapiro: Yeah. What's a pizza on the menu right now that you're really excited about? Brandon Gray: There's one called Function. So I spent a little bit of time in Zymen, China and they have a big Uyghur culinary scene up there. And if you're not familiar with a Uyghur food it's halals, and Chinese food. So they use a lot of lamb and spices and stuff like that. So, I did my ode to my time spent in China with making like a chili crisp using lamb that I get from a purveyor here in Los Angeles. When I say Brandoni's is California cuisine, it truly is. Like the flowers from California, the ingredients are from California. I love a pizza called Californication. It's essentially my time spent a Wahaca where it's barbacoa on a pizza canvas. Amanda Shapiro: Steamed lamb shoulder... Brandon Gray: Chickpeas, flowering, cilantro, and make like a salsa borracha from the cooking liquid that the juices that come out from the lamb. Amanda Shapiro: Yeah, you've described your dough as sort of a cross between Neapolitan style and a Pizza Hut style, which I love. What does that mean exactly? Brandon Gray: Traditionally Neapolitan pizza, you'll get a very fluffy pillowy, cornichon, which is the little crust. When you press down on it, it'll have just a little small texture, but then it's just like a pillow. So I wanted to match that up with Pizza Hut, who doesn't love Pizza Hut. You know, I grew up on Pizza Hut. Amanda Shapiro: Yeah. I love that oil slick on the bottom of the crust that you always get on the Pizza Hut pizza. Brandon Gray: Yes. That's love language right there. That's my love language. Rashida Holmes: I can't relate, but I feel you. Amanda Shapiro: So it sounds like both of you are actually making food that you want to eat yourself and that you want to share with the world, which is kind of the dream. But that kind of creative freedom is so hard to find in the traditional restaurant industry. Has running a pop-up really satisfied you and allowed you to experiment in the ways that you wanted to. Rashida Holmes: Yes, absolutely. You know, when you hold the reins of power, as you do in your own business, all the creativity kind of falls on you. Which is awesome and also a burden at the same time. It's both. Amanda Shapiro: What do you mean? How is it a burden? Rashida Holmes: Because I have a small team. I have a business partner. I have three ladies in the kitchen that helped me out. So they all looked to you for the creative vision, which I'm perfectly happy to do, but sometimes there's just some weeks where I'm like, "I don't have any, I got nothing." Amanda Shapiro: I feel that. Rashida Holmes: Sometimes you just got nothing and then sometimes it just flows. Like last week I had nothing, this week I can't stop writing. So... Amanda Shapiro: Writing menus? Rashida Holmes: Menus, working on my vision for what I'd want the business to be in the future. All these things are kind of flowing this week for me. So... Amanda Shapiro: That's awesome. Rashida Holmes: Where last week I think I cried in the kitchen. So, you know, it's, it's both. You have to understand that there are ups and downs to both of it, but I much prefer being in charge of my own destiny in this way, then kind of helping other people fulfill their visions, which there is value in that, but there's definitely a lot more value in fulfilling your own. Amanda Shapiro: That must be such an emotional roller coaster, kind of going through the ups and downs of that and the risk of the business sort of being fully on your shoulders as opposed to working for someone else. Where if you have a bad week or a bad day, you can kind of just like go home and be done with work. Rashida Holmes: I would say I have my mom as my financial advisor. And so she's always looking at the books. I know Brandon, your mom is also a big part of what you guys do. It's nice cause she helps me not stare at it every day, but I stare at it every day any way. I can't help it. Each week is a different thing, and because our business is so unstructured and unpredictable, it's also the joys of being an entrepreneur. Amanda Shapiro: How about you, Brandon? What's been the biggest difference for you going from traditional restaurants to running a pop-up? Brandon Gray: It's a little bit harder on me because it's just a one man operation. So Wednesdays, my mother comes to the farmer's market with me to help pick herbs. Amanda Shapiro: Y'all have great moms. Brandon Gray: Yeah, for sure. Rashida Holmes: Shout out to the moms. Brandon Gray: Yeah. Besides those few hours that she helps me with, it's essentially me doing everything. So, you know, I remember eating at a restaurant in Japan and there was only one chef. He pretty much did everything. And I was like, "that'd be a cool concept if there's just one person, essentially just runs an entire business." So I think it's great that I have the creative freedom that I do to put whatever I want on the menu. I started something very recently where I'll do Test Kitchen Thursdays. Whatever's available at the farmer's market, I'll just sort of pick and choose, and those may not be pizzas that land on the concrete menu, but it's at least keeping me stimulated culinary wise. Amanda Shapiro: Yeah. It sounds like having to play every part in the kitchen is a real flip side of the pop-up life, but tons of added responsibility and obligation. It sounds like... Brandon Gray: I think for me with it being just a one person entity, I think I burned myself out and I don't want that to be the trajectory for me. You know, I've been in the hospitality industry for 18 years and I've worked so hard to get to this moment that I had to essentially say yes to any and everything because I didn't want this opportunity to slip away from me. And I think by doing that, I let a lot of things fall to the wayside, relationships, friendships, and just like my own personal sanity. Amanda Shapiro: I mean, Rashida, what advice do you have for Brandon? Rashida Holmes: Get help, hire help. Brandon Gray: Commitment, woof. Rashida Holmes: Get a partner, commit to someone. Amanda Shapiro: Yeah. Rashida Holmes: I mean, if I hadn't done that in the beginning, in June, right when I first started getting press and had someone kind of take over the marketing for me, I wouldn't be anywhere where I am now. Like at all. I'm honestly amazed that you've been doing this by yourself. Amanda Shapiro: I know. Rashida Holmes: This business is a team sport. It really is a team sport. It's one of the things I love about it. Amanda Shapiro: I just want to kind of build off of that. Besides Brandon, who we all agreed needs an assistant at the very least. Rashida Holmes: At least. Amanda Shapiro: What other advice or words of wisdom do you have for other people who might want to get into pop-ups? Rashida Holmes: A couple of things. The thing I say the most is don't measure your success by anyone else. So much of my success had to do with timing. The other thing I would say is create a clear brand. That was something that I got advised on very early on, about figuring out what the brand was, figuring out what a mission statement was, being very clear about what story you want to tell to people with your concept. Because the pop-ups are all about the story, right? If you can't have people sit down in your restaurant, you kind of have to like tell it via social media, then you got to know what you're wanting to say. So have a clear vision and a story to tell, and if it's personal and it resonates, then you do well. And if the food's good. Check in with your friends, make sure your food's good because... Amanda Shapiro: The people who will tell it to you straight. Rashida Holmes: Yeah. My parents were my first critics and they were like, "Eh, I don't know about this, I don't know about that, I know about that." So... Amanda Shapiro: Will they tell you that now? Rashida Holmes: God will they. Um, my mom's always like, "Oh, the Curry chicken didn't taste quite right this week." Brandon Gray: Wait you don't have recipes? Rashida Holmes: I have recipes, bro. It's just my mom. Amanda Shapiro: I know you're really in the thick of it right now. But do you have anything that you'd tell anyone who's aspiring to do what you're doing? Brandon Gray: Practice your craft before opening. Like, I think what a lot of restaurants don't do before they even open up, which is insane to me is... Rashida Holmes: Mind blowing. I know exactly you're going to say. Brandon Gray: Food costs, recipes. If you are not doing just those two simple things, then just stop right now. Shut the business down. Write everything down, have some Excel sheets. Writing recipes, without those, any and every business will fail. And patience. I've been at this for 18 years and finally now have a platform to have conversations with people. It's not going to happen overnight. I wish it would, but it's just not. I think dedication to your craft is probably another thing. It's interesting like _Jiro Dreams of Sushi_ was one of my favorite movies. Rashida Holmes: The best. Brandon Gray: Within the first five minutes of the movie, he's essentially saying like, "You have to dedicate yourself to your craft." And I totally believe in 10,000 hours. If you don't put in the time, how are you going to expect someone else to enjoy your product? Amanda Shapiro: Yeah, the dedication to the craft part must be so hard because you've done this for 18 years and then your pop-up gets tons of press and people think of you as a hot new chef. And you're like, "I'm literally on my second decade here," but nobody really gets that when you finally hit gold on your own thing. Rashida Holmes: So true. So true. Amanda Shapiro: Rashida, do you feel similarly about that? Like this is sort of when you're getting your due? Rashida Holmes: Yeah, absolutely. You know, I've been there 13 years now and yeah, it's weird to be called a new chef when you've been doing it for so long already, but I'll take it. If you want to give me a new chef awards, I'll take new chef awards. Don't matter to me. Amanda Shapiro: You are both such wonderful, thoughtful, insightful, and talented guests. And I'm so grateful that we got to talk today. You're both going to do so well with whatever you end up doing. I know it's a lot of uncertainty, but I'm excited to see what comes next. Rashida Holmes: Me too. The saddest part of this. I haven't had Brandon's pizza yet. Amanda Shapiro: Yeah. And you live in LA there's no excuse. Rashida Holmes: It's messed up. It's messed up. Brandon Gray: Well, what's crazy is I just saw Rashida last week at the commissary kitchen. And you did not offer me any food. Amanda Shapiro: Oh! Rashida Holmes: I was in the middle of putting the catering out. I was in the weeds. I was like... Amanda Shapiro: Brandon you should have just snuck in there and nabbed an oxtail patty. Rashida Holmes: I mean, you could have. Brandon Gray: We'll coordinate this. Amanda Shapiro: Thank you to our guests Rashida Holmes and Brandon Gray for giving us a real peek into their pop-ups. If you're in LA, make sure to order, and we'll put a link to their websites in our show notes. While you're there, give their businesses a follow as well on Instagram to see the next steps of their pop-up journey. Brandoni Pepperoni is @la_brandoni_pepperoni and Rashida's Bridgetown Roti is simply @bridgetownroti. If you love the show, be sure to rate, review and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. It helps keep us _Food People_ employed. And you can follow _Bon Appétit_ on Instagram @bonappétitmag and on Twitter @bonappétit. _Food People_ is produced by Bon Appétit in partnership with Pod People. Vishnu Vallabhaneni is our senior producer, Ginny Bloom is our showrunner, Madison Lusby is our production manager, and Morgane Fouse and Jessica Jones are our associate producers. This episode was engineered by Trae Budde and the music is by DJ Nu-Mark. June Kim and I provide editorial direction for the series. Special thanks to Matt Sav, Nico Steele, and Julie Shen. I'm your host, Amanda Shapiro, and I'll see you next week.