Chris Morocco: Hello, cake lovers, and Dinner SOS listeners. I'm Chris Morocco, food director of Bon Appetit and Epicurious, and this is Dinner SOS, the show where we help you save dinner, or whatever else you happen to be making. Today, we're talking baking, and baking cakes, specifically. My colleague, Shilpa Uskokovic, has been up in the test kitchen for months and months, developing delicious, new cake recipes. Shilpa Uskokovic: That's right, many months. I made five cakes, and you can read all about them at bonappetit.com. Chris Morocco: We'll link to the article in the show notes. But, Shilpa, what have you come here to tell us today? Shilpa Uskokovic: Well, I'm going to tell you my top five tips for successful cake baking, and give you some guidance on how to stock your pantry, for any baking project. Chris Morocco: Then, we'll answer your cake questions. Shilpa, you've been baking a lot of cakes. Shilpa Uskokovic: So many cakes. Chris Morocco: Can you give me, like, your top five actionable tips and takeaways, for the folks back home? Shilpa Uskokovic: The most important one, is using a scale. I don't think that's a surprise- Chris Morocco: No- Shilpa Uskokovic: ... especially coming- Chris Morocco: ... no disagreement. Shilpa Uskokovic: ... from me. Especially coming from me. But, um, that is my number one tip, when you're baking. I mean, regardless, whatever you're baking. Um, if you ever thought you can bake, or if you have baked and it's turned out weird, or if it's turned out really well once, and then it's been terrible the next time, basically if it's inconsistent, you're probably not using a scale. A digital scale is great because it's accurate, first of all. Second, for people who hate doing dishes, like me, it just makes cleanup so much easier. You're not going through- Chris Morocco: You can literally assemble ig- ingredients- Shilpa Uskokovic: You could. Chris Morocco: ... in the same bowl, because- Shilpa Uskokovic: Yeah. Chris Morocco: ... you can basically, like, negate each addition in- Shilpa Uskokovic: Mm-hmm. Chris Morocco: ... like a way, that sort of next ingredient- Shilpa Uskokovic: Exactly. Chris Morocco: ... that comes into the bowl. Shilpa Uskokovic: Exactly. Chris Morocco: Just to be clear. Shilpa Uskokovic: Yes. You tare the scale out, and then you add ingredients. Chris Morocco: Tare, T-A-R-E, means like reset to zero. Shilpa Uskokovic: Mm-hmm. Chris Morocco: Negating the way to the bowl, whatever ingredients are there. Shilpa Uskokovic: Yes. And it's consistent. You using chocolate chips in a recipe, for instance, okay, many chocolate chips occupy a different volume, than say, bigger chocolate chips, like chocolate febs or rounds. So, then one cup of mini chocolate chips isn't equal to one cup of other shaped chips. Chris Morocco: Yes. Shilpa Uskokovic: Um, which, you know, in the context of chocolate chips, maybe more chocolate chips is not a bad thing, but sometimes it could make or break a recipe. And in that case, using a scale gives you that consistent amount, no matter what. So it also loves you to be flexible, to a certain extent, um, with the new recipes. So a number one tip, use a scale. You can never go wrong. Second tip, I feel like I'm going to get some flak for, but it's a very obvious one, [laughs] which is, use the ingredients that the recipe calls for. Chris Morocco: [laughs] Shilpa Uskokovic: I, I just- Chris Morocco: You ask the impossible- Shilpa Uskokovic: [laughs] Chris Morocco: ... it can't be done. Shilpa Uskokovic: Truly. Listen, there's a reason why recipe developers, you know, we go through a lot of effort, to come up with a recipe that works for everyone and every home kitchen, as much as possible. So, my point is, making it something extra, it's a luxury, it's a desire, it's, you know, you don't have to bake, but you just want to bake because it's something fun. So, for something that is not extremely essential, I think, go the distance, you know, do what you have to, to get the end result. Why would I bake a cake that's just half as good as it could be? Chris Morocco: Yeah. Shilpa Uskokovic: Because I don't want to go to the store. Chris Morocco: Yeah- Shilpa Uskokovic: So. Chris Morocco: No, I, I hear that. Shilpa Uskokovic: Ingredients are big for me. Okay. The next one is, there is such a thing as over mixing, when it comes to a cake. Which I think is a point that not a lot of us focus on. Um, and it can happen in two aspects. One, the obvious one wh- y- after you add the dry ingredients, you mix, and if you over mix, then of course, I think most of us know it becomes too tough because there's too much gluten developed, et cetera. But to me, what's most interesting is, you know, when most cakes, like, cream ingredients, when they beat the butter and sugar together, and then you add the eggs one by one, and then you beat it till it's creamy, fluffy, et cetera. You can over cream, and you can over beat, at that stage. And when you do, your cake can be very crumbly and dry. Chris Morocco: Hm. Shilpa Uskokovic: Uh, so over mixing is a thing, and you have to pay attention to that. Okay, with that. Number four, is Christopher's favorite trick, which is using a thermometer, to temp your cakes, and to know when they're done baking. Or, you can touch the- Chris Morocco: [laughs] Shilpa Uskokovic: ... the cake, [laughs] to know that it's done, uh, baking. Essentially, what I'm trying to tell you is, quit using the toothpick or skewer, to test your cake, okay, don't. Um, because general wisdom is, "Oh, put the toothpick or skewer in, and then if it comes out clean," or some people are nice enough to say, "If it comes out with a few moist crumbs attached, it's done." A few moist crumbs, that's a good one, you know, that's, that's fine. But when you say it can come out clean, it could be 20 minutes past the time that it's done, and it could still come out clean. It could be just done and it can come out clean. It's inconsistent, it's terrible, it's setting you up for failure. All right. Touch your cake, you touch the top of the cake, yes, when it's in the oven, Chris, do not glare. Chris Morocco: No, no, no- Shilpa Uskokovic: Um. [laughs] Chris Morocco: ... I, I, I don't disagree with you. Shilpa Uskokovic: Mm-hmm. Chris Morocco: Keep going. Keep going, ta- talk about the touch test. Shilpa Uskokovic: [laughs] You touch the, you know, you use your index finger, or whatever to, um, touch the center top surface of the cake, just gently press it down. And if it springs back, it's done. Or you can- Chris Morocco: As opposed to, you know, creating a divet that holds- Shilpa Uskokovic: That's correct. Yes. Chris Morocco: Yeah. Shilpa Uskokovic: Uh, you can feel it gently bouncing, uh, against your fingertip, and then, you know, it's done. Or you can do what I prefer to do, which is, um, check it with a thermometer. And usually for cakes, that's around 200 Fahrenheit. Chris Morocco: Number five. Shilpa Uskokovic: Number five is, um, preparing your pan properly. Chris Morocco: Like a lot of people use, like, non-stick sprays- Shilpa Uskokovic: Yes. Chris Morocco: ... for greasing. Shilpa Uskokovic: Yeah. Okay. Chris Morocco: E- wow. Oh- Shilpa Uskokovic: Okay, I'll tell you- Chris Morocco: ... wow. Shilpa Uskokovic: ... I'll tell you why. Chris Morocco: Your face just did something horrible. Shilpa Uskokovic: It did. It did, it did, because here's the thing. Use the spr- I love a spray, but don't use the- Chris Morocco: The regular spray. Shilpa Uskokovic: Yeah, use th- Chris Morocco: You want the baker's- Shilpa Uskokovic: ... Baker's- Chris Morocco: ... spray. Shilpa Uskokovic: ... Joy. Yes. Uh, use the baking spray that has the flower mixed in, because that does two things. A, obviously, you know, it'll always make sure it turns out. And two, there's something about that coating, that will give you like a really shiny finish as well, which for most cakes it doesn't matter because you're flipping, and you might be frosting, but in the case of a bundt cake, for instance, it makes a big difference. Um, and I love a Baker's, I love a non-stick spray with the flower in it- Chris Morocco: Yeah. Shilpa Uskokovic: ... for baking- Chris Morocco: That is- Shilpa Uskokovic: ... specifically. Chris Morocco: ... that is a really nice product. Shilpa Uskokovic: Mm-hmm. Chris Morocco: Adding a little bit of grease to the bottom of a cake pan, means the parchment just sticks down really nicely in there. Shilpa Uskokovic: You're not wrong. Chris Morocco: You know. Shilpa Uskokovic: ... but you're not right. But, [laughs] anyway- Chris Morocco: A- Shilpa Uskokovic: ... let's conclude- Chris Morocco: That's, that's like a victory, in a conversation with Shilpa. Shilpa Uskokovic: [laughing] Chris Morocco: So- Shilpa Uskokovic: Let's g- g- Chris Morocco: ... I can, I can dine out on that one. Shilpa Uskokovic: [laughing] Chris Morocco: Drinks are on me. Shilpa Uskokovic: Oh, yeah. But the point is, yes, prepare your pan properly. Chris Morocco: Yeah. Shilpa Uskokovic: Always use, always use parchment- Chris Morocco: Have the can ready. I mean, my God, again, like, Shilpa, there's like an, a order of magnitude to the importance of, like, certain thing, you know what I mean? Shilpa Uskokovic: Yeah. Chris Morocco: Like it just, for everybody out there, just like before you start mixing things, prepare the pan- Shilpa Uskokovic: Yes. Chris Morocco: ... and turn your oven on. Shilpa Uskokovic: Yes. Chris Morocco: And that's, like, 85%- Shilpa Uskokovic: Oh, yes. Chris Morocco: ... of the game. Shilpa Uskokovic: Yes. Those were my five tips. Chris Morocco: Thank you. All right. We are going to take a short break, and then we'll be back with all the tools you need on hand for baking, and then we'll answer some listener questions. So, Shilpa, top tools to have on hand. Like, we talked a lot about ingredients, and we touched on tools to an extent. Shilpa Uskokovic: Mm-hmm. Chris Morocco: Like, what are your top things, you've just gotta have if you wanna bake? Shilpa Uskokovic: Well, number one is obviously a digital scale, that goes without saying, considering that I think that's, you know, one of the biggest takeaways for baking in general. So a digital scale. Um, two sets of measuring spoons, I'm going to go with. One- Chris Morocco: And take the measuring spoons off the damn ring. Have them separated from each o- oh, you're, like, shaking your head. Shilpa Uskokovic: No, I'm not sh- Chris Morocco: I think you should separate them. Shilpa Uskokovic: [laughs] Okay, that's fair. Chris Morocco: You can get- Shilpa Uskokovic: Yeah. Chris Morocco: ... behind that? Shilpa Uskokovic: Yeah, I can get behind that. Chris Morocco: Okay. Shilpa Uskokovic: I actually, because I was- Chris Morocco: Approved- Shilpa Uskokovic: ... trying think- Chris Morocco: ... under duress. Shilpa Uskokovic: [laughing] No, I was trying to think, because at work they're on a ring, here, but at home I do have them off the ring. Chris Morocco: Yeah. Shilpa Uskokovic: [laughs] Chris Morocco: Why, why is th- the tablespoon going along for the ride with the, like the 1/8th teaspoon measure? Shilpa Uskokovic: Yes, Chris is right. You're right. Chris Morocco: Okay. T- take, take, take them off the ring. Shilpa Uskokovic: Take them off the ring. But you have to have two. Chris Morocco: Parchment paper. Shilpa Uskokovic: Yes. Chris Morocco: Parchment paper is not wax paper. Shilpa Uskokovic: No. Chris Morocco: Parchment paper- Shilpa Uskokovic: Absolutely not. Oh, my God. Chris Morocco: ... is its only thing. Shilpa Uskokovic: Oh. Okay. Chris Morocco: You need parchment paper. Shilpa Uskokovic: You need parchment paper. And you need to look for the one that says, silicone parchment sheets. There is something else called, I think it's pronounced, Quilon. Chris Morocco: I cannot confirm or deny this information. Shilpa Uskokovic: Oh, I know the information is correct, I just don't know how- Chris Morocco: [laughs] Shilpa Uskokovic: ... to pronounce the [laughs] word. Chris Morocco: Cool. Shilpa Uskokovic: [laughing] Chris Morocco: I was thinking any parchment paper was better than no parchment paper. Shilpa Uskokovic: Oh, undoubtedly. Chris Morocco: Okay. Shilpa Uskokovic: Undoubtedly. The thing about using a silicone parchment sheet, is that you can reuse it multiple times. Chris Morocco: Like, you mean, literally like a sil pad? Shilpa Uskokovic: No. No. No, Christoper. Chris Morocco: I don't know what you're even talking about right now. Shilpa Uskokovic: Okay, parchment paper is parchment paper, because it's coated with something already, it's not just some magic paper. So, the coating has to be silicone, not the other one that I can't pronounce, which is Quilon, or whatever the hell it is. Okay. Anyway, let's continue. Uh, a basic set of cake pans. To me, that's two 8-inch round pans. Chris Morocco: Non-stick? Shilpa Uskokovic: Not... No, I, I don't prefer non-stick pans, uh, because they're generally darker, and that can affect how cakes bake. I do like a non-stick bundt pan, but for other cakes, no, I prefer regular heavy-duty aluminum pans. Chris Morocco: Okay. Shilpa Uskokovic: Uh, so 8-inch round, not 9-inch. 8-inch rounds. Uh, two inches high. And then, I think everybody needs- Chris Morocco: Spring form? Shilpa Uskokovic: We stand divided on that. I, I have a spring form, but I have never really- Chris Morocco: You don't use- Shilpa Uskokovic: ... used it. Chris Morocco: ... spring form pans? Shilpa Uskokovic: I don't, really. You do. Chris Morocco: Okay. Yeah- Shilpa Uskokovic: Don't you? Chris Morocco: ... I grew up with them. Shilpa Uskokovic: Hmm. Chris Morocco: I find, like, they have a nice, tall side, and- Shilpa Uskokovic: Yeah. Chris Morocco: ... you know, the, the supermarket, regular degular 8-inch ones, are usually pretty short, you know. Um, so it's like, it becomes like a little bit of like more of like a specialty bakers item, to have a straight sided, round, tall, 8-inch- Shilpa Uskokovic: Oh. Chris Morocco: ... pan. But, a lot of this is subjective, right? Shilpa Uskokovic: Yeah. I mean, I- Chris Morocco: To what we think people have, right? Shilpa Uskokovic: Yeah. I don't think I've ever bought my cake pans at a supermarket, so, um, [laughs] I'm just saying, I didn't know that... Yeah, I mean. Okay. Nevermind. Chris Morocco: Welcome to the gutter. Shilpa Uskokovic: [laughs] Chris Morocco: [laughs] Shilpa Uskokovic: You need a 9 x 13, a metal one with straight sides, that's always a plus. Chris Morocco: Again, that's like a specialty bakers item in some- Shilpa Uskokovic: Yes- Chris Morocco: ... worlds. Shilpa Uskokovic: ... I agree. Chris Morocco: You know, like a 9 x 13 metal, not glass- Shilpa Uskokovic: Yes. Chris Morocco: ... is, is the difference here. And things really do bake differently between metal and glass. Shilpa Uskokovic: Oh, yes. Worlds differently. Chris Morocco: Yeah. Shilpa Uskokovic: Um, uh, yes, a glass pan conducts heat differently, and then you have to change the temperature, et cetera, et cetera. Um, and then you need a square pan, 8 or 9-inch. Chris Morocco: Square metal. Shilpa Uskokovic: Yes, metal. Always metal. Uh, you need half shaped pans. Come on, should a half sheet pan, like heavy-duty aluminum one. I would say a minimum of two. Um, something that you don't agree with or have, is wire racks. [laughs] Chris Morocco: No, I agree- Shilpa Uskokovic: Hmm. Chris Morocco: ... that I should have it. Shilpa Uskokovic: Hmm. Chris Morocco: I just don't. Shilpa Uskokovic: You know what? It, your birthday just passed. Perhaps- Chris Morocco: You know what, Shilpa- Shilpa Uskokovic: .... perhaps- Chris Morocco: ... I have a half sheet rack up in the top of my cabinet- Shilpa Uskokovic: Oh! Chris Morocco: ... a- at home. Which is really exciting. Shilpa Uskokovic: Okay. Your past self was better prepared. Chris Morocco: Yeah. Shilpa Uskokovic: Um- Chris Morocco: They're really ha- I mean for, like, hot stuff on countertops, like mini pans. Shilpa Uskokovic: Yeah. Chris Morocco: As well as baked goods. Shilpa Uskokovic: Yeah. Chris Morocco: They're dynamite. Shilpa Uskokovic: Fried food. Chris Morocco: Yeah. Shilpa Uskokovic: Yeah. A, a wire rack is great. Yeah, again, have at least two, I think. Um, what else? Oh, uh, offset spatulas. Small offset spatulas, indispensable. I have them in metal and plastic, because those are good- Chris Morocco: Right. Shilpa Uskokovic: It's a plastic- Chris Morocco: Plastic- Shilpa Uskokovic: ... offset- Chris Morocco: ... offset spatula. Shilpa Uskokovic: And not just plastic handle, even the blade part is plastic. Because when you want to, like, um, unmold cakes, from let's say, bundt pans or whatever, which might have a non-stick coating, you don't want to put a metal spatula- Chris Morocco: Hmm- Shilpa Uskokovic: ... in there, so. Chris Morocco: ... tasty. Shilpa Uskokovic: Um- Chris Morocco: That's new to me- Shilpa Uskokovic: [laughs] Chris Morocco: ... it's great. Shilpa Uskokovic: Yes. Um, a small offset spatula, which is great for all kinds of things, you know, picking up cookies, unmolding cakes, smoothing batters, frosting cakes. Yeah, really indispensable, couldn't do without them. For bonus points, I would say, have a cake turntable, um, if you can frost cakes, which I really can't. Uh, it really goes a long way towards helping you get a better product, um, because it spins as you're frosting the cake, so you can get much more even frosting. Hm, a thermometer, we already spoke about this. And I think the last one that I have is, having [inaudible 00:13:46], which are, I guess, hm- Chris Morocco: A Cambro is like a very heavy-duty- Shilpa Uskokovic: Hmm, yeah. Chris Morocco: ... food storage container, made out of, um, probably something like around, like polycarbonate, you know, some, like, incredibly hard and tough- Shilpa Uskokovic: Sturdy- Chris Morocco: ... plastic. But they're nice because they're square, generally, they're not always. But they're square, which means they fit better into- Shilpa Uskokovic: Mm-hmm. Chris Morocco: ... rectangular cabinets- Shilpa Uskokovic: Shelves, yes. Chris Morocco: ... and drawers and things, and yeah. Anyway, we're gonna get into our listener questions now. Let's hear from our first caller. Harley: Hello, my name is Harley. And I would love some help on learning how to make a caramel cake. I try to make one every Christmas Eve, and have for many years. I've used all kinds of recipes, and even though the cake always turns out pretty good, the icing is just a abject disaster. It hardens or tears up the cake, and I can't spread it, and I cannot figure out what I'm doing wrong, um, because I tried it so many times. So I would love a good recipe that would help me with this, and some tips, more importantly. And, thank you. Bye. Shilpa Uskokovic: Caramel cake is an interesting one, it's very complex. Um, and it's usually, like, yellow cake layers, multiple. Chris Morocco: I didn't even know it's a thing. Shilpa Uskokovic: Oh, okay. It's a very southern thing. Chris Morocco: Yeah- Shilpa Uskokovic: Um- Chris Morocco: ... okay. Shilpa Uskokovic: ... and it's- Chris Morocco: Yeah. Shilpa Uskokovic: ... with multiple layers, sandwiched with the caramel frosting, which is unique, because it's almost like a soft caramel, you know, like- Chris Morocco: Yeah. Shilpa Uskokovic: ... how you make soft caramel, you cook, like, butter and sugar, et cetera, together in a pan, and then you pour it over, while it's still warm. So, I can see where that part is difficult. Use a thermometer, that could be one. Chris Morocco: For the caramel? Shilpa Uskokovic: For the caramel. Chris Morocco: Meaning it's, you think it's too tight, so it's like kinda pulling at the sides of the cake- Shilpa Uskokovic: Yes. Chris Morocco: ... when you're spreading it? Shilpa Uskokovic: Yeah. It's probably cooking a hair more than it needs to. Um, and it's seizing up, you know, not knowing too many of the other facts, I would say, uh, temperature is a big one when it comes to caramel cake. Maybe cook it a little bit, um, less, so that it remains a bit more fluid, and, um, spread it on the cake. Chris Morocco: And the cake's gotta be, like, cool, right? I mean, like, warm cake, very tender, you know- Shilpa Uskokovic: Yes. Chris Morocco: ... just spreadable texture. Shilpa Uskokovic: Excellent. Wow, someone's really hit the dictionary today. Um, [laughs] yes, it has to be a cool cake. Anyway, I think the biggest factor in play here, is temperature. And if you have a reliable thermometer, like a thermopen, um, it would go a long way towards your cake's- Chris Morocco: Yeah- Shilpa Uskokovic: ... success. Chris Morocco: ... and just, like thin it out, you know, and just, like, gotta, gotta cool the cake down. I don't know also- Shilpa Uskokovic: Hm. Chris Morocco: ... like, the notion of a crumb coat- Shilpa Uskokovic: Hm. Chris Morocco: ... like, does that apply in a caramel cake? Shilpa Uskokovic: Not for this, no. Chris Morocco: Not for this. Shilpa Uskokovic: Yeah, it just sits. Chris Morocco: I got to get it on there. Shilpa Uskokovic: Yeah. Spackle it, as best as you can. Chris Morocco: Spackle. Shilpa Uskokovic: Yeah. [laughs] Chris Morocco: Pour and spackle oh my God, it sounds intense. Shilpa Uskokovic: Caramel cake, coming to Bon Appetit. Chris Morocco: Yeah. No, we're gonna, we're gonna get on this. We're gonna figure it out, and stay tuned. Okay, Shilpa, this is a question from Suzie Taylor, of Harper Grace in New Finland. "I do not like deserts with fruit. Do you have any suggestions for fruit cakes, that don't involve wet fruit globs in the cake? Like, who wants gross lumps of old apple in a cake? I don't understand. My partner of 25-plus years, occasionally produces these oddities, and fruit pie. What is with fruit pie? If it isn't lemon meringue, I don't get it." [laughs] Shilpa Uskokovic: [laughs] Chris Morocco: [laughing] Shilpa Uskokovic: I feel like you have a thing or two to say about fruit pies. Chris Morocco: Oh, my God. Well, okay. Shilpa Uskokovic: You love a fruit pie. Chris Morocco: I love a fruit pie. Shilpa Uskokovic: Hmm. Chris Morocco: I absolutely adore a fruit pie, 'cause I like deserts on the savory end of the spectrum, and anything in a pie crust, really does it for me. Shilpa Uskokovic: Hm. Chris Morocco: It can't be too sweet. So, like, the whole, like, lemon meringue, clouds of meringue on everything, I, I hate that shit. Shilpa Uskokovic: Okay. [laughs] Chris Morocco: I cannot stand it. Shilpa Uskokovic: Nevermind. Chris Morocco: No- Shilpa Uskokovic: Mm-hmm. Chris Morocco: ... just like, it's too much. I just want the lemon. Shilpa Uskokovic: Hmm. Chris Morocco: I want custard, I want, like, chocolate pu- I need savory. Shilpa Uskokovic: Mm-hmm. Chris Morocco: But- Shilpa Uskokovic: I get that. Chris Morocco: ... to the extent that, like, I, I remember my pitch for Summer Oven- Shilpa Uskokovic: Yes. Chris Morocco: ... like the case for baking [inaudible 00:18:09]- Shilpa Uskokovic: Yes, what happened? Chris Morocco: Oh, they hated it. Shilpa Uskokovic: [laughs] Chris Morocco: They hated it. I was like, "Crank up the AC- Shilpa Uskokovic: [laughing] Chris Morocco: ... what is it matter?" Shilpa Uskokovic: A 20000 BTU AC, that's the trick. But yes. [laughs] Chris Morocco: It's just like, it got, I mean, whatever. It's like, we're never allowed to bake in the months when the fruit's good. Shilpa Uskokovic: But, a- Chris Morocco: We have to bake in months where the fruit is not- Shilpa Uskokovic: Like an apple. Chris Morocco: ... [inaudible 00:18:28] bad. And AKA, why apples are in everything, 'cause you can always get a decent apple, more or less. So, fruit cakes that don't involve wet fruit, what are you thinking? Shilpa Uskokovic: My mind went actually to the one that I developed, the raspberry cream cake. Chris Morocco: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Shilpa Uskokovic: Because it's a fruit cake, you know, it's fruity, but it doesn't have bits of fruit in the cake. It's like a vanilla chiffon cake layers, and then it's coded, with this raspberry, whipped cream. Chris Morocco: Yeah. Shilpa Uskokovic: And I think it might just answer Suzie's question- Chris Morocco: 'Cause it's got- Shilpa Uskokovic: ... 'cause it's got [inaudible 00:19:05]. Chris Morocco: ... dehydrated raspberries, blitzed to a powder that- Shilpa Uskokovic: Yes. Chris Morocco: ... go into a stabilized whipped cream? Shilpa Uskokovic: Uh, th- the freezedried raspberries that get blended, because it's hygroscopic, it really stabilized the cream so well, um- Chris Morocco: That you don't need, like, gelatin or- Shilpa Uskokovic: Nothing. Chris Morocco: ... anything else. Shilpa Uskokovic: Nothing. And it stays firm and beautiful for a few days. Um, and yes, there are fresh raspberries, like, between the layers, but, you know, Suzie doesn't want that, Suzie can get rid of them. Chris Morocco: I think it's interesting 'cause it's a fruity cake- Shilpa Uskokovic: Mm-hmm. Chris Morocco: ... right? More than it's a fruit cake. Shilpa Uskokovic: Correct. Chris Morocco: And speaking of the, the caramel apple snacking cake- Shilpa Uskokovic: Hm. Chris Morocco: ... from Zena- Shilpa Uskokovic: Yeah. Chris Morocco: Um, that was great, because the apple is shredded. Shilpa Uskokovic: Yes. Chris Morocco: So it kind of hits at the flavor of a caramel apple- Shilpa Uskokovic: Mm-hmm. Chris Morocco: ... like the most, like hyped [beep] desert of all time. Shilpa Uskokovic: I don't think I've ever had one. Chris Morocco: There's no reason to. Shilpa Uskokovic: Oh. Okay. Chris Morocco: They're terrible. Shilpa Uskokovic: Hm. Chris Morocco: They're, like, good for maybe one bit. Shilpa Uskokovic: Mm-hmm. Chris Morocco: And then it gets in somebody's hair, and then you have to go home, 'cause you gotta, like, put peanut butter in the hair and, like, try to- Shilpa Uskokovic: Oh! Is that it? Chris Morocco: ... get the caramel out. I think so. Shilpa Uskokovic: Okay. [laughs] Chris Morocco: I don't know. Shilpa Uskokovic: I feel like peanut butter is first. Okay. Yeah. Chris Morocco: Yeah, that is like what we did in the era before the internet. I wonder- Shilpa Uskokovic: [laughing] Chris Morocco: ... if, like, [laughs] you know, I wonder if- Shilpa Uskokovic: Times have changed. Chris Morocco: ... its held up. Shilpa Uskokovic: Hmm. [laughs] Chris Morocco: Um, so, yeah, that's another great one, since the fruit disappears, but fruit- Shilpa Uskokovic: Yeah. Chris Morocco: ... in things, I mean, in, come on, like, what are we doing here? Shilpa Uskokovic: I mean, I kinda get where Suzie is coming from. I, I do understa- wh- listen to me. When the- Chris Morocco: Where she's coming from is New Finland. Shilpa Uskokovic: [laughs] Chris Morocco: Okay? Shilpa Uskokovic: No, but- Chris Morocco: She doesn't like fruit pies, so. Shilpa Uskokovic: Fine, we'll dock a point off for that. However, I do understand the wet blobs of fruit in it, you know. There's nothing worse that when- Chris Morocco: Like a whole strawberry baked into a thing, and it's like- Shilpa Uskokovic: And then like a gooey- Chris Morocco: ... juice, and it's just- Shilpa Uskokovic: ... layer around. Chris Morocco: ... exuded moisture, to no clear benefit- Shilpa Uskokovic: No. Chris Morocco: ... it's just. Yeah, I mean, listen, like- Shilpa Uskokovic: Yeah. Chris Morocco: ... not every fruit can take the treatment. Shilpa Uskokovic: No. Chris Morocco: You know. There's a reason why it's like a blueberry muffin, not a strawberry muffin- Shilpa Uskokovic: Correct- Chris Morocco: ... right? Shilpa Uskokovic: ... yeah. Yes. Yeah. So, there is something to be said for, at least of like, uh, wet fruit blobs. [laughs] Chris Morocco: We hear you, Suzie. We're gonna take one more short break, and we'll be back to finish answering all those listener questions. Two more. Finish strong. This is from Jamie. "I won't bury the lead. My wife, Laura, has Coeliac's disease, and also cannot eggs or dairy, without significant discomfort. She has a single tried and true chocolate cake recipe, that uses unsweetened apple sauce, as an egg replacer, cashew milk, and Bob's red milk GF baking mix. It works decently well, and creates a moist, fudgy cake, that might be closer to brownie, without the creaming step, or melted chocolate. This was great, until we wanted something other than chocolate cake. We tried a few off recipes, like the minimalist bakers Funfetti, for example, and are never quite satisfied. I tried to make the BA Blueberry buckle, in a GF vegan fashion, with an underwhelming results. We'd love some tips, tricks, or advice, and recommendations for what we can make or modify, to get us at least one more non-chocolate cake recipe, in our repertoire. Baking for her, vexes me." Shilpa Uskokovic: I can imagine, that's a, that's a lot of things. Chris Morocco: Eggs. Shilpa Uskokovic: Yeah, because they do so much, because they're adding structure, they're providing aeration. Yeah, it's interesting that Jamie specifically requests a non-chocolate cake, and it's interesting that he has success with the chocolate cake, because- Chris Morocco: That makes sense. Shilpa Uskokovic: It makes a lot of sense, yes- Chris Morocco: Yeah. Shilpa Uskokovic: ... cocoa power is very starchy, and then when you cook it, even when you don't have any g- like, flour and- Chris Morocco: Yeah. Shilpa Uskokovic: ... gluten, when you cook cocoa power, which is so starchy, it kinda sets and becomes this thermo irreversible gel, so to speak, and then it has structure. Chris Morocco: Thermal irreversible- Shilpa Uskokovic: [laughs] Chris Morocco: ... gel, so to speak. Shilpa Uskokovic: [laughing] Well, it is what it is, though. Chris Morocco: I love that. Shilpa Uskokovic: Um, so chocolate cakes, in particular, work really well for its application. Anyway, at first I thought this was an impossible ask, but I recently remembered, we cross tested in the test kitchen. Chrissie Tracy's vegan banana bread, which really might hit everything- Chris Morocco: Everything? Shilpa Uskokovic: ... Jamie asks for. It is dairy-free, obviously, because it's vegan. It does have all-purpose flour, so it's not gluten-free, but I feel like that can be very easily rectified. Chris Morocco: I would say, use the Bob's Red Mill, one to one- Shilpa Uskokovic: Yeah. Chris Morocco: ... baking mix. Do not use the Bob's Red Mil; gluten-free flour blend. Shilpa Uskokovic: Yes. Because- Chris Morocco: The one-to-one is gonna have, um, you know, like a stabilizer, like a xanthan gum, or something in it, and it's gonna have some starches in it. Shilpa Uskokovic: Yes. Chris Morocco: Um, it's gonna work much more similar to an all-purpose flour. Shilpa Uskokovic: Mm-hmm. Yes. When y- yeah, that's a great tip, actually. When you're looking for a gluten-free blend, definitely look for one that includes xanthan gum, because that's going to give structure and hold your cake together. And also make sure that the first ingredient is not chickpea flour. It should be something neutral, like a rice flour, um, rather than chickpea flour, it's going to taste too grassy and weird. Chris Morocco: Gritty. Shilpa Uskokovic: Mm-hmm. Chris Morocco: You know, it's, it's, it's a problem, I mean chickpea flour, don't, don't get us wrong, in other applications- Shilpa Uskokovic: Oh. Chris Morocco: ... it's, like, totally dynamite. Shilpa Uskokovic: 100 percent. Chris Morocco: You know. But in just standard baking recipes, like- Shilpa Uskokovic: Yeah. Chris Morocco: ... it just shows up, like a fart in a car. Shilpa Uskokovic: [laughs] After you have egg salad sandwiches. Chris Morocco: Yes. Thank you, Shilpa. Shilpa Uskokovic: [laughing] Chris Morocco: ... for finishing that thought. Shilpa Uskokovic: Yes, [laughing] so, let's finish on a more pleasant note. Chris's banana bread. Chris Morocco: I just, why not just put it out there, we could dance around it all afternoon. Shilpa Uskokovic: [laughing] Chris Morocco: Right? Shilpa Uskokovic: Chrissy's banana bread. Chris Morocco: It's good. Shilpa Uskokovic: It's great. Chris Morocco: Okay. Last one. Big finish. Andres. "Hello, I'm a big fan of the show, and had a question, or concern about cake. I love cake, it's the best, but I find the average American cake eating scenario to be very uncomfortable. Usually, it's hot outside, like a birthday picnic or barbecue, or a wedding, and you're already boozed up, or wearing nice clothes, or some other environment, where I'm socializing and don't wanna stand and hold a piece of cake, while talking to people." I hear you there. "It always feels ridiculous. So here is your challenge. I love cake, and wanna eat it too, but I don't want to eat in any of the above scenarios. For someone like me, what are some other scenarios, and are recipes to enjoy and share cake. No cupcakes or cake pops allowed." Wait, so is the challenge, wants to eat cake, but doesn't wanna have to eat it with a fork and a plate, but still wants cake? Or does he want not cake? Shilpa Uskokovic: I- Chris Morocco: How'd you interpret that question? Shilpa Uskokovic: I, I interpret it. Chris Morocco: Yeah, what do you got? Shilpa Uskokovic: As someone who is not making cakes for themselves, and I'm like, why are you waiting for a wedding or summer, to eat cake? Chris Morocco: Yeah- Shilpa Uskokovic: Why are you just- Chris Morocco: ... you're right. Shilpa Uskokovic: ... not making cake, every week? And there's your problem solved. Chris Morocco: The cake you can make yourself- Shilpa Uskokovic: Yeah. Chris Morocco: ... chances are, is better than most of what you can buy. Shilpa Uskokovic: Yes. Chris Morocco: Most places. Shilpa Uskokovic: Most places. Chris Morocco: Or that you'll be eating out, most places. Shilpa Uskokovic: I agree. Chris Morocco: A lot of those cakes are coming out a production kitchens that, like, let's just say, like, quality is not job number one. And even if it's like, "Oh, it's like real buttercream." You know what? Real buttercream kinda sucks. Shilpa Uskokovic: Thank you. Chris Morocco: Thank you. Shilpa Uskokovic: I hate buttercream. [laughs] [inaudible 00:27:00] thing. Chris Morocco: It's like, we're like, like, kinda like, sort of like deep cover subsersives, who like, have to like, kind of like, do like a special sign, to like- Shilpa Uskokovic: Hmm. Chris Morocco: 'Cause I feel you say you hate buttercream, real buttercream in the wrong company. Shilpa Uskokovic: Oh, yeah. Chris Morocco: I look at you with quite a bit of side eye. Shilpa Uskokovic: Like a peasant. Uh, no, buttercream sucks. Chris Morocco: It's horrible. Shilpa Uskokovic: Um- Chris Morocco: It's like, your body can't process that much butter. Shilpa Uskokovic: It's like a cold stick of butter, but sweet. Chris Morocco: But sweet. Shilpa Uskokovic: Ugh, no. Chris Morocco: No. Shilpa Uskokovic: There's a reason why I didn't... Well, do I? No, I don't. I don't think I have any actual, like, buttercream, buttercream recipes, in my cake story. Chris Morocco: No. Shilpa Uskokovic: I d- Chris Morocco: I don't know if I would have let you. Shilpa Uskokovic: M- okay. [laughs] Chris Morocco: Not even if you wanted to. Shilpa Uskokovic: Great, I'm glad we- Chris Morocco: [inaudible 00:27:41] do anyway- Shilpa Uskokovic: ... this quality control. Chris Morocco: And then we could have fought about it. Shilpa Uskokovic: [laughs] Chris Morocco: Would have been great. Shilpa Uskokovic: Which is not unusual. Chris Morocco: Yeah. Shilpa Uskokovic: Um- Chris Morocco: This, yeah, I feel like, you need to be making cake for yourself. And I hear, but that's like, that speaks to like, how are you supposed to eat in public- Shilpa Uskokovic: Oh, God. Chris Morocco: ... anyway. Shilpa Uskokovic: Yeah. Chris Morocco: How are you supposed to hold a drink and a plate of food, anyway. Shilpa Uskokovic: Okay, I need to know how people manage that, because that's really hard. Chris Morocco: You, you gotta have a stemware, right? Shilpa Uskokovic: Okay, yeah. Chris Morocco: You need stemware, through the fingers- Shilpa Uskokovic: Mm-hmm. Chris Morocco: ... same hand, holding the plate. Shilpa Uskokovic: That's asking one thing too many- Chris Morocco: And- Shilpa Uskokovic: ... of me. Chris Morocco: ... is holding the fork- Shilpa Uskokovic: Yeah. Chris Morocco: ... and gesticulating wildly. Shilpa Uskokovic: [laughs] Chris Morocco: Right? That's how the Italians do it. Shilpa Uskokovic: Okay. [laughing] Chris Morocco: [laughing] Shilpa Uskokovic: All right. Chris Morocco: Yeah. No, it's not about, like, don't, like, bring a cupcake to a barbecue, don't like try to out think the scenario- Shilpa Uskokovic: Yeah. Chris Morocco: ... in the game of situational cake. Shilpa Uskokovic: Yes. Chris Morocco: Right? Shilpa Uskokovic: Which is, yeah. Chris Morocco: Which is kind of the premise of your entire cake story. Shilpa Uskokovic: Yeah. Chris Morocco: Which is like, what is the right cake for you, if you are, dot, dot, dot- Shilpa Uskokovic: Mm-hmm. Chris Morocco: ... entertaining. Shilpa Uskokovic: Yep. Chris Morocco: Doing a birthday party. Shilpa Uskokovic: Yeah. Chris Morocco: Looking for a project in the kitchen. Shilpa Uskokovic: Yeah. Here's the thing, Andrew, bake yourself a cake, you know- Chris Morocco: Bake yourself a cake. Shilpa Uskokovic: ... sit on the couch, in your underwear, and eat your cake. Chris Morocco: He deserves it. Anyway- Shilpa Uskokovic: [laughs] Chris Morocco: ... um- Shilpa Uskokovic: Okay, well, Andrew, here's permission from us- Chris Morocco: Let us know what- Shilpa Uskokovic: ... to eat cake. Chris Morocco: ... you bake. Call in. Yeah, let us know how it goes. If you have a dinner emergency, or just a quick question, write to us at Dinner SOS, at bonappetit.com. Or leave us a voice message, at 212-286-SOS1. That's 212-286-7071. You can find the recipes featured on today's episode, plus the rest of the Bon Appetit recipe archives, on the new Epicurious app, brought to you by Conde Nast. Just search Epicurious in the app store, and download today. They're also linked in the show notes. If you enjoyed this episode, please, give us a rating and review on your podcast app of choice, and hit that follow button, so you never miss an episode. Dinner SOS, is a Conde Nast entertainment original podcast. I'm your host, Chris Morocco. My co-host this week, is Shilpa Uskokovic. This episode was produced by Jordan Bell, with production support from Michelle O'Brien, and Leah Kashar. Peyton Hayes is our associate producer. Jake Lumus is our engineer. We'll be back next week, with an ode to the appliance, that you're probably under using. Speaker 4: Maybe once every other month, I'll spend a few hours on the weekend and cook, you know, 15 or 20 meals, and stick them in the freezer. And I'm getting stuck in a rut, and don't really know how to turn many recipes into freezer meals. Chris Morocco: And when he saw what he had done, Alexander wept, for there were not more worlds to conquer, Shilpa. That's what I'm talking about.