Dorothy Wickenden: I'm Dorothy Wickenden. On today's Politics and More podcast, New Yorker staff writer, Casey Cep looks at a Confederate monument near her hometown on the eastern shore of Maryland. The monument was erected in 1916, and this summer, the county council voted on whether to remove it. David Remnick: During the Trump administration, the culture war as we know it has gone from a war of words to an openly violent clash, with attacks taking place at protests in Portland, New York, and many other places. It seemed to start in Charlottesville three years ago, where a woman was murdered in a car attack by a right-wing protester. That Charlottesville rally, attended by neo-Nazis as well as pro-Confederates, was held in support of a statue of General Robert E. Lee. So, a war that ended 150 years ago, remembered by monuments that went up 100 years ago, is now a flash point in a bitter partisan divide. Our staff writer, Casey Cep grew up in the shadow of one of those Confederate monuments, and she has this story about its fate. Here's Casey Cep. Casey Cep: I grew up in a tiny town in Talbot County on the eastern shore of Maryland. It was like a lot of the towns around here, little farming, little fishing communities, places that have a post office and a few churches and not really much else. So, for me, growing up, the big city was actually Easton, the county seat. There was a movie theater, grocery stores, a bookstore, there was even a pet shop. I really liked to go and see the parrot there. Easton, if you were to look at it, it was really a picture postcard of a colonial town. It's got brick sidewalks, old timey street lamps, and right in the center of town is a courthouse. If you came up Dover Street or you walk down Washington Street, you'd arrive right at the courthouse, and you'd be standing on this little patch of green grass, looking at this cozy red brick building that has a clock tower, beautiful [kubla 00:02:03] on top that chimes the time. And if you look to your left, you would see a statue of a boy holding a flag. Speaker 4: So, we're looking at a statue of a young boy. It looks like maybe, could be, 14 years old, and you see him staring off at the distant horizon. He's got a very proud posture, and he's holding a flag that the wind has got wrapped around him like a cape. Casey Cep: You'd probably assume it was the American flag. Speaker 5: I walked all the way around it trying to get a better look, and it looks actually like that might be a Confederate flag. Casey Cep: Down below on a giant granite pedestal, bright as day on the front of it, it says, "To the Talbot boys." Speaker 4: "To the Talbot boys, 1861 to 1865, CSA." Speaker 6: And the date is 1861 to 1865, Confederate States of America. And there's a bunch of names in the side here. Speaker 4: And on the side of the monument, there is a lot of names inscribed. It looks like soldiers, probably, at least at the top. We've got admirals and Brigadier generals. Speaker 5: I guess, did Maryland have soldiers siding on both sides of the Civil War? Is that why? Casey Cep: It actually never seemed odd to me to have a Confederate statue in town, kids wear Confederate flag T-shirts to school. You would see Confederate flags on people's bumper stickers and on their baseball caps. Maryland might be right square in the mid-Atlantic, but the Eastern shore has always seen itself as Southern. But now, our statue is the last one in the state of Maryland, outside of a battlefield or a graveyard. Mississippi has gotten rid of his Confederate flag. Even Richmond is getting rid of his Confederate monuments. And I sometimes worry we might end up the last town in America that still has a monument to the Confederacy. For five years now, a lot of people in Talbot County have been trying to get the statue removed. To be clear, I'm among them. And this summer, the question about what to do with Talbot Boys was finally back on the official agenda. Corey Pack: Resolution 290. Madam Secretary, would you please read the title of the resolution? Madam Secretary: Resolution number 290, a resolution prohibiting statues depicting persons, signs, or symbols associated with military action on Talbot County property and providing for the removal of the Talbot Boys statue while retaining the base of the monument. Casey Cep: The Talbot County government is run by a council of five members. There are three local business people, there's a former parole agent, and a local historian. Pete Lesher: I am looking to historical sources to inform some of the discussion around this, because as a historian, if I'm going to speak credibly about how this monument came to be the way it is, I've got to do my homework. Casey Cep: That's Pete Lesher. Along with serving on the council, he's also a curator at the Chesapeake Bay Maritime Museum. Pete comes from a very old Talbot County family, old enough that some of them show up on a certain local monument. Pete Lesher: There are Goldsboros and Tillmans, cousins of mine, probably others if I really do some digging, who are named on that monument. Casey Cep: One of his ancestors, Oswald Tillman, was part of the group that erected the monument on the courthouse lawn. Pete Lesher: Oswald Tillman goes off and fights for the South, comes back to Easton after the war, and he is one of those who helped to raise funds, probably contributes to the Talbot Boys monument. Was on the committee with Joseph Seth, who I think was the chairman of that whole effort. Casey Cep: Joseph Seth was a very big guy in Easton around the turn of the 20th century. He was actually behind a lot of things in Easton. He brought the railroad lines to town. He ran the Bar Association. He even raised money to build the hospital that I was born in. And in 1912, he dreamed up the idea of this local monument to the Confederacy. Why just the Confederacy? Well, Joseph Seth came from a slave owning family, and it's clear from his memoirs that he took a pretty rosy view of slavery. Speaker 10: Slaves were held here from the early days of the colony until the Emancipation Act, but they lived under a paternal kindly rule. The bulk of the slaves were devoted to their masters of their families, taking great interest in everything concerning them. They considered themselves a part of the family, and their devotion was so great that they would run any risk to protect them. Pete Lesher: When you look at the county as a whole, Talbot County was not a pro-secessionist. Nevertheless, nevertheless, there were certainly some strong sentiments on both sides, and we saw some people go over the lines and fight in Maryland units that got organized into the Confederate army. Casey Cep: It was actually originally some talk about a separate Union monument, but it never happened, so Seth and some other Confederate sympathizers just put theirs up. The early 20th century was when this romantic lost cause narrative of the Confederacy became popular all over the country. A cottage industry sprung up to provide these kinds of statues. The Talbot Boys actually came from a company in Ohio, which had a whole catalog of statues. Actually, the exact same statue stood in Lake Charles, Louisiana until it was knocked over last month by Hurricane Laura. So, in 1916, the Talbot Boys monument was dedicated on the courthouse lawn. For more than 100 years now, it's had pride of place. You literally have to look up to it. It leaves you feeling like the whole county identifies with the Confederacy, which was never true. I don't think it's a coincidence that three years after the statue went up in 1919, a mob of some 2,000 people tried to Lynch a black man on the courthouse grounds. Pete Lesher: I get how this pains some people, how you get that knot in your stomach as you walk by this symbol, and how this is a racist symbol, this is a painful reminder of both Talbot County's past and Talbot County's presence. And so, I've come around really slowly to this, and frankly, I did not fully embrace complete removal of this until pretty recently. Casey Cep: Pete Lesher co-sponsored the bill to take the statue down. It's not exactly a comfortable position for him out on the front lines of something so controversial. Pete Lesher: I'm not one generally to upset the apple cart, and so being the outspoken advocate for the complete removal of the Talbot Boys, I will tell you, it's not a terribly comfortable role for me that I find myself in. And certainly, there are others who are more verbose and more articulate and more strident than I am on this issue. Casey Cep: The statue's most prominent defender on the council is Laura Price. Laura Price: Removing the Talbot Boys statue might be a real issue in our community, or it might simply be an abrupt reaction to the chaos that is being fanned around the country. Casey Cep: She's protected the statue for years now. But then, there are council members, Chuck Callahan, and Frank Divilio. It was hard to know what they thought about the Talbot Boys. Chuck Callahan: Talbot County is so unique. We're going to be coming together just like everybody's saying, and that's our whole goal. I think everybody's goal here tonight to talk through this is starting the conversation. Frank Divilio: You may fight with one another, as we have, we will always disagree on many different things, but at the end of the day, we've come back and we're still making huge leaps and bounds in diversity and working together with race relations. Casey Cep: That brings us to County Council president, Corey Pack. Corey Pack: So, my early years in Talbot County, I knew nothing about the Talbot Boys statue. Casey Cep: Corey Pack isn't from Talbot County. He came here in 2002 to run a local parole office. Corey Pack: I walked past the statue numerous times, but never stopped to read the names that are inscribed on the base, never asked questions of the locals about the statue, and did not become aware of its history, of his beginnings until after coming on to the council. Casey Cep: It's probably worth mentioning, Corey is the only black member of the Talbot County Council. I don't mean the only one currently serving. I mean, he's the only black member ever. So, do you remember the first time someone brought it up either you personally or in public at one of the meetings, brought up, "Well, let's get rid of the Confederate monument?" Corey Pack: It had to be in around 2015. I'm trying to think when the incident in South Carolina- Casey Cep: He means the shooting in Charleston, South Carolina, when a white supremacist killed nine black church goers. After Charleston, a lot of cities took down their Confederate monuments. New Orleans, Baltimore, even Birmingham got rid of theirs, so the Talbot County branch of the NAACP asked the County Council to get rid of the Talbot Boys. Richard Potter is the president of that branch. Richard Potter: Our case was that the courthouse is a place where any constituent, regardless of race, color, gender should be able to go and get a fair and just trial, and how can people of color think that they're going to get a fair and just trial when you have a monument that adorns the grounds of the courthouse that says to one group of people, "You should have remained enslaved." And the council thanked us for the presentation and said that they would get back to us. Corey Pack: And I will say, Casey, if we had taken a poll in 2015, when the council first considered this, I would dare say that the vote probably would have been by Talbot Countians to keep the statue in place. Casey Cep: Lynn Mielke, a retired attorney who practiced law in Easton, was one of the people defending the statue. What's your first memory of the statue at the courthouse? Do you remember the first time you saw it or anyone mentioned it to you? Lynn Mielke: No. Because when this whole thing came about is 40 plus years, or 35 years, of practicing in that courthouse, and for a long time, it was hidden behind just overgrown trees, shrubs or whatever, so no. Casey Cep: Since 2015, Lynn has written a half dozen editorials and letters to the editor opposing removal. She's also given public comments at council meetings. Lynn Mielke: We have better and more important tasks to devote your time to and our time to and money and energy in order to achieve racial justice than to obsess over erasing our history taking down the statute. The wave of hysteria has got to end, not by erasing one side of history, but rather context. Casey Cep: I'm sure you're aware of the assumptions a lot of listeners to this will bring to the question of, "Okay, well who's for these monuments?" And I wonder, if you had a direct line to those people, what you would say about why you have become so active in the fight to preserve this one. Lynn Mielke: I'm just an advocate for preserving history and not tearing it down as a pulse of the moment, like ISIS tore down statues in the Middle East. Casey Cep: Gotcha. Lynn Mielke: Even tearing down Abraham Lincoln's statue that Frederick Douglas commented on. It's [inaudible 00:00:14:42] of history, for better or for worse, that I'm an advocate for. History can be represented better, and the constituency of Talbot County determines that, then that's how it should be. Casey Cep: I guess my question is, is it just about not wanting to succumb to the mob and feeling like this is Talbot Countians and deciding, or do you think the statue is objectively good and it should be there? Lynn Mielke: Oh, no, I haven't thought that through, and I'm not going to answer [inaudible 00:15:17] off the top of my head. Corey Pack: This is a monument that commemorates those deceased Talbot Countians is who fought and died in battle. Whether you agree or disagree with the cause that these young men fought for, doesn't change the historical facts of the war. Casey Cep: In November 2015, the County Council announced that the Talbot Boys statue would be staying right where it was. They read out their unanimous decision at one of their public meetings. The statement and had been drafted by Corey Pack. Corey Pack: ... war veteran, it would be a sign dishonor to those 90 decease soldiers, as well as disrespectful to the family members should this council or any other council remove, deface, or alter this monument in any way. Therefore, this council does not support the recommendation to have the Talbot Boys monument moved to another location. David Remnick: That's Corey Pack, the president of the Talbot County Council, speaking in 2015. Now, the vote that year to keep the Confederate monument on the courthouse lawn was unanimous, but this summer, in the midst of a national reckoning on race and racial justice, the town of Easton is again considering what to do about the Talbot Boys statue. We'll find out just what happened in a moment. This is the New Yorker radio hour. Jim O'Grady: The September 11th terrorist attacks changed the world. There's a sense that they came out of nowhere. They didn't. I'm Jim O'Grady, and in my new podcast, I'm going to revisit the evidence and question the people at the center of this story. Speaker 17: I don't want to use the word panic. Let's penetrate [inaudible 00:00:17:10]. Speaker 18: And I promised him revenge Jim O'Grady: Blind Spot: The Road to 9/11, a new podcast series from History and WNYC studios. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. David Remnick: This is the New Yorker radio hour. I'm David Remnick. Staff writer, Casey Cep has been reporting on the effort to remove a Confederate statue in Easton, Maryland. She grew up near Easton and spoke with many of those involved in the decision, including the County Council president Corey Pack, who opposed removing the statue in 2015. Casey Cep: It was obviously, it seemed at the time strategic to have you be the council member, the black council member is the one who decided to preserve the monument, but did you think at the time the symbolism of this is, "Here I am, the only black elected official, and I will be the one defending the Confederacy," as it were, or did it just not feel that charged? Corey Pack: No, no, no, no. No, I did. II can't say that I was completely divorced of that thought could because I wasn't. And I was trying to be as deliberate in my response as I possibly could without factoring in race, without factoring in, "Well, am I supporting the Confederacy or am I supporting slavery by saying that the statue should stay?" And again, those conversations that I had with local citizens fed into that decision making, and if I had heard from those Baby Boomers saying, "Hey, Corey, it's horrible. Take it down. We need to get rid of it," it probably would have colored my decision a great deal. But that was not what I was hearing. Tori Paxon: I feel like there was already some talks about the Talbot Boys statue in our community after the death of George Floyd and after the protests were happening all over the world. Casey Cep: This is Tori Paxon. She's an activist in Talbot County. Paxon and a group of her friends helped organize a protest in Easton in June. I was there. I think it was probably the largest protest in the history of Talbot County. For a place that's the size of Easton and for a town that's like the town of Easton, it's actually a pretty incredible for that many people to gather for anything. I ran into some teachers of mine from high school, from elementary school. My sisters ran into people they work with. It was a pretty moving day and brought together a lot of people from the community. Tori Paxon: I can't remember exactly how many people came. I think it was close to 1,000, and it was just amazing to see all of that come together, especially in a town that needs it so much. Because race wasn't talked about for such a long time, and if it was talked about, it was disregarded Casey Cep: See, for Tori Paxon, the statue isn't just a symbol of the past, the way Lynn Mielke and others describe it. For her, it's a symbol of the white supremacy she feels right now in her community. Tori Paxon: I personally was racially profiled every time I was pulled over by the police. It was this constant aspect of, "Do you have drugs on you? And if you do have drugs on you, where are the drugs at?" Don't get me wrong, I understand from some degree, being a white person in Talbot County and only going into white spaces in Talbot County, you probably wouldn't know about these things because you you've never encountered them, but they do exist and they happen a lot in Talbot County. Casey Cep: That was the realization the council president Corey Pack was just coming to. Corey Pack: I have come to a point where there have been a change in me regarding signs and symbols and what they mean. They do carry an immense weight. I think the voice of the Millennials have been the, the carrying wave of a lot of these changes of opinion of middle-aged men like myself who are sitting in seats of local power. I really do. I mean, the Baby Boomers that I spoke with back in 2015, quite honestly, Casey, they could care less about the statue, but for the voice of the Millennial, I don't think you would have this movement that you're having today. Casey Cep: I mean, are we to gather there's a Millennial in your life who's changed your mind? Corey Pack: I do have a Millennial in my life. I do have a 25 year old daughter who has been very active as of late. Casey Cep: Corey Pack's daughter is Tori Paxon the activist. Tori Paxon: I feel like when it comes to my father, and I feel like we've always battled sometimes, but I think once I talked to him more about my own experiences and also about the experiences of my friends, kids that he watched me grow up with, and I think that's what really resonated with him and made this change happen. Corey Pack: And let me say this, I've gone back and talked with some of those people I talked with five years ago. They said, "Hey, look, it's not going to add an extra day to my life, an extra inch to my height, but Corey, now, it's the time. We got to do this now. It's time. It's time." Casey Cep: In June, a resolution was presented to the County Council to remove the Talbot Boys from the courthouse lawn. It had two sponsors, Pete Lesher and Corey Pack. Madam Secretary: Resolution prohibiting statues depicting persons, signs, or symbols associated with military action on Talbot County property and providing for the removal of the Talbot Boys statute while retaining the base of the monument. Casey Cep: The council got a lot of public comment, at their meetings, over the phone, by email, even in the pages of the local newspaper. There was a huge surge in support for getting rid of the Talbot Boys. According to the county's official record, they heard from almost 900 people about the Talbot Boys, and by my account, more than 700 of them were calling for removal. Speaker 20: Recognized by no government on earth, the insurgency that fought our country does not deserve to be memorialized on public grounds. Speaker 21: [inaudible 00:24:14] express strong support for the removal of the entire structure, the entire statue [inaudible 00:00:24:22]. Let's not [inaudible 00:24:24] let's get it done [inaudible 00:24:27]. Casey Cep: Richard Potter of the NAACP has always been optimistic about getting rid of the statue. Richard Potter: Right will always prevail, and if you don't do what's right, right has a way of continuing to resurface. And will you take the opportunity to do what's right this time around? Corey Pack: Resolution 290, Madam Secretary, would you please read the title of the resolution? Madam Secretary: Resolution number 290, a resolution prohibiting statues depicting persons, signs- Casey Cep: Which brings us to the night of the big vote, Tuesday, August 11th. Laura Price: Because we had had no public input on amendments two or three, I believe that that is inappropriate for us to take any votes on the amendment this evening. Casey Cep: That's Laura Price. She and Chuck Callahan made the kind of unbelievable argument that more public comment was needed before they could do anything. Chuck Callahan: There's a lot of people out there that really would love to... [inaudible 00:25:28] just hearing these for the first time, and we don't know that so we need to give them the right to think it through to see if that's right for them. Casey Cep: It's honestly impossible to believe that the council has ever heard from more people about anything. Councilman pack at least seemed as mystified by this line of objection as I was watching the meeting at home. Corey Pack: I'm just saying, if that's the way you feel, Mr. Callahan, than that's nothing wrong, that's the way you feel. All I was alluding to is that in the past, you have said that- Chuck Callahan: I have [inaudible 00:26:00]. I've said that many times. I've said that many times. Corey Pack: Well, what's the argument? That's all I said. Chuck Callahan: But that the argument is, this is something that's 155 years old. Okay? Corey Pack: A, it's not 155 years old. It was erected in 1916. It's not 150 years old. Chuck Callahan: We're talking history. We're talking history here. That's what we're talking. Corey Pack: Yes, but the statute is not 150 years old. It was erected in 1916. Chuck Callahan: Okay, it's 106. It's 106. It's older than us, that's for sure. And nobody's here that's on that statute, there's 84 names on that statue, and they can't stand in front of us and tell us what their thoughts are, so that's something you need to think about, too. Casey Cep: Here was a council member saying that it was more important to him to consider the opinions of Confederate ghosts than it was to consider the opinions of his living, breathing constituents. Chuck Callahan: I'd like to push it down the road a little bit so that people can put their thoughts together [inaudible 00:26:59]. Casey Cep: That made Frank Divilio the swing vote. Finally, he said what he was thinking. Frank Divilio: My problems with the amendment is the timing of right now with COVID-19. I'm absolutely committed to this goal, and I'm committed to being fair and transparent. This piece of legislation has been brought in front of the public at a time when we've not been able to open up to the public as we have in the past. Now it's time for us to put it back to the community. If they've asked three different councils to change their opinion, and we've tried, we're putting it back to the community to put it on a ballot question would be my plan so that everybody has that opportunity to voice their opinion. Casey Cep: Look, there's a lot to say about that. First of all, it's not clear that the State Board of Elections would even allow a public opinion poll like that on a ballot ever, but even if they did, the earliest that that question could appear on a ballot is 2022, which would mean that the council members would get to run for reelection without ever dealing with the monument. Corey Pack: I don't want to belabor this point. I don't want to belabor the public and the media any further with this, and I think at this point, let's go ahead and call it a roll and move on. Madam Secretary, please file your roll on resolution 290 as drafted. Madam Secretary: Mr. Pack? Corey Pack: Aye. Madam Secretary: Mr. Divilio? Frank Divilio: No. Madam Secretary: Mr. Callahan? Chuck Callahan: No. Madam Secretary: Mr. Lesher? Pete Lesher: Aye. Madam Secretary: Ms. Price? Laura Price: No. Corey Pack: Resolution 290 fails. Casey Cep: I called Richard Potter right after the vote. Richard Potter: Was it fair in the beginning when we first started out and we went through this process? And then now at the end you want to say that it's not fair because it did not give your constituents, which are the racist white people of Talbot County an opportunity to speak out? Casey Cep: Richard was in his car on his way to a protest outside the courthouse. I was on my way there, too. By the time I got there, there were already about 100 people at the courthouse. They'd come from Easton, of course, but also from Unionville and Trappe and Saint Michaels and Oxford, all these little towns like the one that I grew up in. There were people who came with signs saying, "Vote them out," and, "No hate in our state," things they just thrown together really quickly and gone because they didn't know what else to do. Speaker 22: Black Live Matter! Black Live Matter! Black Live Matter! Black Live Matter! Black Live Matter! Casey Cep: Those protesters were loud enough that you could hear them inside the council chamber. Corey Pack: We understand that citizens are quite upset over the earlier vote taken today, so council's going to go ahead and suspend the balance of this meeting. Basically, we're at the end of the meeting. I know there has been a number of people on- Casey Cep: Council members Laura Price and Chuck Callahan never responded to requests to be interviewed for this piece. Councilman Divilio commented by email. He wrote, "I have been treated horribly by people I've known my entire life after that vote. I've decided to move forward with my own plan and not allow any of them to help." On the night of August 11th, he exited the courthouse to a wall of protesters chanting shame. But when Corey and Pete left the courthouse, they were greeted like heroes. Pete Lesher: [inaudible 00:30:42] I truly was hopeful, and I'm so sorry that I disappointed you. [inaudible 00:30:57] I'm so sorry. [inaudible 00:31:00] we will not give up. Casey Cep: It's hard to look at the statute today and not think that something went wrong. It might be tempting to say something like, "Well, that's local government. Bureaucratic, slow to act," but I really don't think that's what happened here. The Talbot Boys statue remains for the exact same reason it was put up. Not because it's historically accurate or because it reflects the shared values of the community, but because powerful people wanted it there, and it was in their power to ignore the people who don't. Casey Cep: Fewer and fewer people in Talbot County will come right out and say that they support honoring the Confederacy or that the Civil War wasn't really about slavery. Mostly what you'll hear them say now is, "We can't give into mob rule," or, "That statue's our history, and we can't destroy it." Above all, what they like to say is, "We can't take any action right now." But leaving the monument is an action. It's a vote to honor those who fought to maintain slavery in America. Five years ago, all five council members cast that kind of vote. Last month, only three did. Someday, none will. Time is finally catching up with the Talbot Boys, and I know, soon, there will be no more Confederate monuments in the public squares of Maryland or anywhere else in America. David Remnick: Casey Cep. You can find her reporting on the Talbot Boys statue at newyorker.com. She's also the author of Furious Hours, a book about a murder trial and the late work of Harper Lee.