Madeleine Baran: I'm Madeleine Baran. Last time on In the Dark... Speaker 2: The State has failed to convince this court that the proof of Mr. Flowers' guilt is evident or the presumption great so as to deny bail. I just will have this caution for the State of Mississippi, if it continues in its dilatory conduct and if it continues to ignore orders issued by the court, the State of Mississippi will reap the whirlwind. Speaker 3: We're very pleased with the judge's decision on bail, for the first time in 23 years, Curtis Flowers will be out of prison. He's very much looking forward to spending time with his family. Natalie: God is good. Curtis Flowers: Hey, baby. I'm so here. Good to see you too. Sherita: Okay, here they come. Mary Catherine Briscoe: Look alive. Sherita: Curtis is walking out of jail right now. Madeleine Baran: A few hours after Curtis Flowers was released from jail, our producer Natalie and I drove over to Curtis's sister, Priscilla's house. The family was gathering to welcome Curtis home, and Priscilla had invited us to come over. Priscilla: Hey, how you doing? Natalie: Hey. Good, how are you? Madeleine Baran: A few people were gathered in the living room and kitchen. Natalie: Hey, girls. Priscilla: Hey. How's it going? Madeleine Baran: Priscilla's husband, James, was out back frying fish, like he often does when the family holds parties. Sherita: Better go eat. Madeleine Baran: Priscilla stood in the kitchen and leaned back on the counter. You look so tired. Are you looking forward to getting some sleep? Priscilla: Oh yeah. Madeleine Baran: Curtis's father, Archie Flowers, was sitting at a table in the kitchen. Madeleine Baran: What are you up to, Mr. Flowers? Archie Flowers: Huh? Madeleine Baran: You're eating some fish? Archie Flowers: Yeah. I love fish. You see me sweating trying to eat it, it's hot. Madeleine Baran: James kept coming in with big metal trays full of fish and hush puppies. Archie Flowers: Have something to eat. Madeleine Baran: I'm good. We actually just ate. Curtis's friend, Terrell James, walked in. So what's going on here tonight? Can you describe what's happening? Terrell James: It is a joyous occasion. Nothing but love and family. That's all I can say. Nothing but love and family. That's all we want to do. See the family and show the love. Madeleine Baran: All right. Terrell James: Yes, yes, yes. Madeleine Baran: So how are you feeling? Terrell James: Oh, wonderful, wonderful. Just left work. I've been up there all day just praising the Lord. I couldn't work all day. God is good, ain't he? God is good. I feel good, y'all. Madeleine Baran: Did you know Curtis before he went? Terrell James: Yes, yes, yes, long time friend. This man here raised me. Madeleine Baran: Mr. Flowers raised you? Archie Flowers: This is a bad boy here. Terrell James: Yes, sir. Archie Flowers: Hey look, been around ever since I was like this right here. Little bitty kid, been around Curtis and him, his wife, whole family ever since I was a little bitty boy. Madeleine Baran: So how did you hear the news today? Terrell James: I've been following it ever since... look, we've been sitting there at work like that right here, watching it. We watched the whole thing at work. We didn't do nothing all day until the verdict was made. And Lord have mercy. Madeleine Baran: Wow. Terrell James: I told them, I said at least I can go to work now, finish my job and then I can go home. I just want to see him and hug him and go home. As long I see him, I'm good. Madeleine Baran: There was a small room just off the kitchen and in that room sitting in a chair smiling and talking with his family and friends was Curtis Flowers. He noticed me and Natalie standing in the kitchen next to his father and he got up and came over. Curtis Flowers: [inaudible 00:03:49] Yes. Madeleine Baran: Hi, Mr. Flowers. Curtis Flowers: How are you doing? Madeleine Baran: I'm doing well. How are you? Curtis Flowers: I'm doing okay. Madeleine Baran: I didn't know if we were ever going to have this conversation. Curtis Flowers: Yes, I've been looking forward to talking to you guys and I was looking for you in the crowd when I come out the jail. And Priscilla said, "There she is right there." Madeleine Baran: Yeah, probably the shortest one in any scenario. Curtis Flowers: I'm like this here, so I'm looking over you. Madeleine Baran: Yeah, it's really good to actually meet you. Curtis Flowers: You too. You too. Rob asked me to hold on and not talk to anyone right now. Madeleine Baran: Rob is Rob McDuff, Curtis's lawyer. McDuff has told Curtis that he doesn't want him doing any actual interviews with reporters yet. Madeleine Baran: And we can wait. Curtis Flowers: He said we can call him first. Madeleine Baran: Yeah, and let's do that. Curtis Flowers: All right. Madeleine Baran: And also, I can't even imagine, like you have to be exhausted right now. Curtis Flowers: Yes, I am. Yes, I am. Yes. But you taking Madeleine and what's your name? Natalie: I'm Natalie. Curtis Flowers: Natalie, okay. Natalie: Nice to meet you. Curtis Flowers: Yeah, nice to meet you guys and I'm looking forward to talking to you. I really am. You guys just don't know how thankful I am for all the time. I really am. I am looking forward to it. Madeleine Baran: Yeah, same. I see you've got one of the shirts on too. Curtis Flowers: Yeah, they was passing them out to all the lawyers and I said hold on, I want one too. Natalie: What does your shirt say? False evidence appearing real. Hashtag free Curtis Flowers. So you're wearing your own shirt? Curtis Flowers: Yes. Natalie: Okay. Curtis Flowers: Yeah, I changed in the truck on the way back. Natalie: Oh, you did? Curtis Flowers: I told Cherie probably want to turn your head I to get out of the suit. Natalie: Are you more comfortable now? Curtis Flowers: Yes, I'm more comfortable now. Natalie: All right. And what are you eating for dinner? Curtis Flowers: Jane fried some fish and some hush puppies enjoying this. I ain't enjoying it. Trying to get my fill in before daddy eat it up. Natalie: Oh really? What was it like to see your father today? Curtis Flowers: Oh, it was awesome. It was awesome. Then I'm talking about he hadn't been five minutes and he already talking about out singing me out. Natalie: Out singing you? Curtis Flowers: Yes. Natalie: Well I should tell you that's basically what he talks about all the time when we go over to his house. Curtis Flowers: And I tell him all the time, long as I'm around, he'll always be second best. James Flowers: Like he did when he was small. I beat him saying he'd go by church because- Curtis Flowers: I knew I couldn't get an allowance if I out sung you. Natalie: So you were holding back? Curtis Flowers: I was holding back. Natalie: To get your allowance. James Flowers: Too scared to sing. Natalie: You think he's too scared to sing? James Flowers: Yeah, he get too scared to sing. We were rehearsing one night. He said, God. Sherita: What time you going to get up tomorrow, Curtis? You need to get some rest. Curtis Flowers: I don't know what time I'm getting up. Sherita: So can come over and talk. Curtis Flowers: I'm not on a schedule now. See, being in jail, you have to get up when they say get up. I don't know. Sherita: Let me speak for Curtis. Madeleine Baran: Curtis's sister Sherita Baskin started to talk. She was looking right at me and Natalie, Sherita: You all have really made a tremendous mark because it hadn't been for you wouldn't tell him where we'll be and I understand by him not wanting to talk right now I'm on the way. Jones Natalie: Is only following with Rob. Sherita: I know that's understandable. But speaking for other family, if it had not been for you, my God, where would we be? It ain't enough words to express our gratitude for what you all done because it's been time before you all came into our lives, we was unsure what was going to happen, but we never lost the faith. when y'all stepped in on In The Dark, that changed the whole, it changed the whole ball game and we thank you for all that y'all have done, all the research, all the talking, all the interviews because if had not been for you, ain't telling where he would've been right now. Thank you both. Natalie: Well, with reporting you just sort of never know what's going to happen. All you can do is report the truth and the facts as best you can figure them out and what happens from then, you never know. And so it's like to have it end like this, you just never know. But here we are. Sherita: Go get y'all some. Curtis Flowers: Guys. I'll grab some of this fish one more time. Thank you so much, Mrs. Natalie. Natalie: Thank you. Nice meeting you. Curtis Flowers: You too. Natalie: All right. Curtis Flowers: Yes, but I'm looking forward to talking to you all. I really am. You tell you guys going to be real easy to talk to. Natalie: Okay, well, we look forward to it. Take some time. Okay. Curtis Flowers: Somebody done took a piece of fish. Oh, come on. Sherita: We fixing to say a prayer. Come on Dad. Ma, come on. Terrell James: Come on home. Put their plate down already. Madeleine Baran: Everyone gathered in a circle in the kitchen and Curtis's cousin Kitery Jones said a prayer. K Jones: Heavenly Father, we come before you this evening. We just thank you and we give you all the praise and all the glory. We thank you for what has transpired this day. What a lovely Christmas present you have given us. And we thank you for it. We thank you for In The Dark podcast, you giving them all the wisdom and the knowledge to uncover things that they tried to hide. We thank you in advance for all the other things that you are going to do, and we give you all the praise and all the glory for taking care of these women. In Jesus' name. Amen. Sherita: Amen. Yes. Y'all have a good night. Natalie: Thank you. That was very nice. Thank you. K Jones: Definitely have been a blessing to us. Natalie: Okay, we'll see you later. All right. Get some rest. See you soon. Curtis Flowers: All right, y'all take it easy, drive safe. Natalie: Thank you. All right. I got to say it's a little bit crazy that we're just talking. I see you later. It's going to take me a little while to get used to. Curtis Flowers: Oh, okay. But you going to get used to me fast then. I'm fun to talk to. Natalie: I believe you. All right, we'll talk soon. Madeleine Baran: Over the next few days, we went to talk with some of the family members of the people who were killed at Tardy Furniture. Our reporter Parker stopped by the house of Willie Golden, the brother of Robert Golden, the only black person who was killed at the store. Golden was standing in his kitchen in an undershirt. The TV was on in the background. Willie Golden: 23 years we've been hacking and going on about this thing. Now he's been relieved. So maybe the peoples will be happy one way or the other. I'm done with it. I'm done with it. That's not going to bring my brother back and just bring the memories back of what happened. I'm done with it. Parker: So it's fair to say you don't really want to see another tragedy. Willie Golden: Oh, I'm just done with it. Madeleine Baran: We also talked with a woman named Mary Catherine Briscoe. She's the mother of Carmen Rigby, another person who was killed at the store. Parker talked to her on her porch. Mary Catherine Briscoe: Well, we don't feel like it's fair because I've lost my daughter and another one of the girls lost her son. 16-year-old son, one lost her mother. Parker: What do you hope happens next? Do you want to see another trial? Mary Catherine Briscoe: I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if I'll be here to go through another one. Girl, I'm 90 years old, so I just can't get upset about it. My son told me not to even go up there yesterday. Parker: Why'd you go anyway? Mary Catherine Briscoe: No, I just had to see what's going on. I've sat through all the others. Parker: What were you hoping for yesterday? Mary Catherine Briscoe: Just hoping he'd just stay put so everybody could settle down. I just don't want nobody else to get in trouble. Parker: What's that mean? What do you mean by that? Mary Catherine Briscoe: I don't want trouble for anyone. I just don't want nobody to get in trouble. Parker: You mean somebody who's angry about this? Mary Catherine Briscoe: Yes. Well, we're really just upset. They just keep bringing it up. Bringing it up. My husband always said we wouldn't live to see the end of it. Of course, he didn't. Then it looks like I won't either. I just want it to be over and not bring it up anymore. That's the main thing. But I hope you never have to go through nothing like this. Parker: Thank you. I hope so too. And I'm really sorry. Mary Catherine Briscoe: Yeah. Madeleine Baran: One person I'd spent a lot of time talking to back when we were first reporting this story was Benny Rigby. He was married to Carmen Rigby when she was killed at the store after the bail hearing, benny Rigby told the local paper, the Winona Times, that he felt that Doug Evans let the victims down by not appearing in court. He said, "I know he's under a lot of stress at the time, but this was his job, what he was elected to do. It wouldn't have taken much time out of his day." The day after Curtis got bail, Parker went to check in with Benny Rigby to see how he was feeling. She found him at his office where we've talked to him before. Benny Rigby: What do you need? Parker: I just wanted to check in with you, see how you're doing today. Benny Rigby: I'm doing good. Doing good. I know you slept good last night. Parker: Why do you say that? Benny Rigby: You got what you wanted? Parker: I'm really hopeful that you'll share your feelings and reactions. Benny Rigby: I'm not, let me tell you something. I'm not sharing anything with you. Parker: We think a lot about what's happened to you and your family. I'm really sorry that you've been through all of this. Benny Rigby: I'm sure. I have nothing to say. Except I'd feel like a disgusting person if I were you. Parker: Why is that? Benny Rigby: You just are. Parker: I mean, I am truly curious why you say that. Benny Rigby: You're, you're not only a liar, you're disgusting. Parker: Why is that, Mr. Rigby? Benny Rigby: I don't know. I guess that's the way you were raised. No raising. Parker: What do you feel like we lied about? Benny Rigby: Let me open this door for you. Don't ever come back. Parker: What was that? Benny Rigby: I said don't ever come back to my office. You want me to say it louder? Madeleine Baran: We weren't surprised by Benny Rigby's anger. At the bail hearing, our podcast was mentioned a lot and it was clear that it upset some of the white people in the audience who believe Curtis is guilty. In the days after the hearing, Parker drove around Winona talking with white people about what had happened at the hearing. Pretty much everyone had heard the news. Two guys eating plate lunches of meatloaf and lima beans at the Quick Way gas station. Man 1 at Quickway: Boy, I was just shocked that they were going to let him out on bail. I was shocked that they were going to even consider it. Man 2 at Quickway: I think he was guilty and I think he's going to go free. Madeleine Baran: A woman in the parking lot of the public library. Woman at library: Think they should just leave the man alone. That's my opinion, honey. That's just my opinion. I mean, he's suffered. His family has suffered, six of anything should be enough. Madeleine Baran: At the post office around the corner from Tardy Furniture. Woman at Tardy Furniture: Utterly, absolutely ridiculous. Four people were murdered. We know who did it. This whole town knows who did it. This whole town knows who did it, but he's going to get by with it because of liberal people, idiot people. That's what, and it makes me sick because these were friends of ours. He damn sure did it. Parker: What did you think of what the judge said yesterday? Woman at Tardy Furniture: A judge. Are you kidding me? A liberal judge. Parker: Judge Loper? Woman at Tardy Furniture: Yes, ma'am. Man at Tardy Furniture: Very liberal. Parker: Do you think Curtis Flowers is guilty? Speaker 16: I don't think so. If he was, they would've had a straight trial. Nothing wrong, but all this stuff they did makes the state look worse than him. Parker: So what do you think of the way the DA handled the case? Speaker 16: This is Mississippi. What you expect? Parker: At the Dollar Tree. Man at Dollar Tree: With what Evan's done? I don't see anything wrong with what he did. I'm remember just be honest about the blacks of raising cane because it was a black man on trial. It's just a racist innuendo to cause it to try to get away with it. And if he does, get away with it, get out. I think that he better not come back to this town if he wants to live. Because there are some people that said if he ever hit this town, that would be the end of it. Parker: You think he'd be in danger? Man at Dollar Tree: Oh yeah. So I mean, if he gets out, I can't stop him, but I think he's stupid if he comes back here, if he wants to live early. Madeleine Baran: So we're in Grenada. We're here to try to interview the district attorney Doug Evans at his office. We're not sure if he's there or not, but hopefully he is. And we're just trying to figure out what is going on with this case right now. Two days after Curtis's bail hearing, Natalie and I headed out to find Doug Evans. Evans hadn't shown up for the hearing. He'd sent an assistant prosecutor named Adam Hopper to argue the state's side instead. And Evans' office hadn't submitted anything in writing before the hearing in response to the defense's written motion asking for bail to be granted. And Evan's office still hasn't responded to other motions filed by the defense in the past months, including a motion to remove Evans as the prosecutor of the case and a motion asking for the charges to be dismissed entirely. When we tried to call Evans on the day Curtis was granted bail, the secretary answered and took a message. Evans never called us back and we couldn't leave a voicemail message because the office doesn't have voicemail. Because of all of this, it wasn't at all clear what Doug Evans was thinking, and yet Evans was still the lead prosecutor in the case. Still the person who would decide whether to try to go forward with another trial, a seventh one, or offer a plea or agree to having the charges dismissed. Natalie: I really hope he's here. I really want to know what he's thinking. Yes. What's going through his head right now? Madeleine Baran: We parked outside the district attorney's office and went in. Madeleine Baran: Morning. We are stopping by to see if Mr. Evans was here. Receptionist at Evans' office: He's not in. Natalie: Oh, okay. Do you expect him later? Receptionist at Evans' office: Don't really know. Natalie: Okay. Is he in court today? Receptionist at Evans' office: No, we don't have court today. Natalie: Okay. Any guesses as to where would be a good place to find him today or? Receptionist at Evans' office: I have no idea. He does. I mean really. I have no idea. Natalie: Idea. Okay. Well maybe we'll try back in a little bit and see if it comes in. Receptionist at Evans' office: All right, do that. Natalie: All right, well thank you. Thanks. Have a good rest of your day. Madeleine Baran: We drove around town looking for Doug Evans truck. Natalie: So far, no sign of him. Madeleine Baran: Want to try the courthouse? Natalie: Might as well. Let's go upstairs. Yeah. Janitor, Lee's Bathroom, Election Commission. Madeleine Baran: We knocked on a door labeled DA's office. Natalie: DA's office. Natalie: Sorry to bug you, I was just wondering. You are over, we're trying to find someone from the DA's office and no one's at their office. Have you seen anyone today? Woman 1 at DA's office: Not today. Bridget, have you seen anybody from the DA office? Woman 2 at DA's office: Not today. Natalie: All right. Woman 2 at DA's office: They don't have an answering machine? Natalie: No. Woman 2 at DA's office: Really? Natalie: They do not. They have no voicemail. Woman 2 at DA's office: Wow. Natalie: I know this doesn't. It is a little odd. Woman 2 at DA's office: Yeah, it is. I'm sorry. Natalie: All right. Okay. Thank you. Woman 2 at DA's office: You're welcome. Yeah, have a good day. Natalie: You too. Yeah, you too. Thanks. Natalie: Where is Doug Evans? Yes, exactly. That is the question of the week. Where is this guy? Madeleine Baran: We headed back to his office, but- Natalie: The office is closed. No way. Yeah, it's all dark in there. What? No lights on the back door to the back. Hallway is completely closed. It is 3:24 PM on a Wednesday. The office of the prosecutor in the Fifth Circuit Court of Mississippi is closed at 3:24 on a Wednesday. Completely closed, shut down entirely. Madeleine Baran: Doug Evans, it seemed was nowhere to be found. The next day, Thursday around noon, Parker went looking for Doug Evans again. His truck wasn't parked at his office or in front of his house, so she decided to drive by some of his rental properties. Parker: Okay. I'm driving around the corner to this house that Doug Evans owns in town in Grenada. There's a couple cats. I see his truck in the driveway. The house is definitely under construction. I. Madeleine Baran: N the carport. There was some lumber set up on sawhorses. There was sawdust all over the ground and there was Doug Evans wearing a plaid shirt and jeans vacuuming up the sawdust. Parker: How are you doing, sir? Looks like you're doing some housework. Doug Evans: I'm sorry. You disturbed me too. Parker: I just was hoping to check in with you after Monday and I went to the office. It seemed like you weren't there. Doug Evans: No, I wasn't. Parker: You're working on doing some housework, huh? Doug Evans: Yep. Taking a couple days off. Parker: Gotcha. Doug Evans: You. Monday, I wasn't though. Monday I was being sworn in. Parker: I saw that. I saw a photo of you. It's your eighth term. Doug Evans: Yeah. Even though your group has done their best to keep me from getting sworn in, by lying and spreading crap that's not true. Parker: What sort of stuff isn't true? Doug Evans: You know what sort of stuff isn't true? The whole thing about the statistics was nothing but a lie. Parker: About the analysis we did on your jury selection. Doug Evans: Yes. Madeleine Baran: Doug Evans has claimed several times that our reporting on his office's history of striking black people from juries at nearly four and a half times the rate it struck white people isn't correct. But he's declined to sit down with us and go over the numbers so we can show us exactly what he means. Our findings have been reviewed and verified by five academics and statisticians, including two who published an article based on our findings in a peer reviewed journal. Parker: What do you have planned next for the case? Doug Evans: None of your business. We don't try cases in the news. We try them in the courtroom. Even though y'all are trying to help the defense, trying it outside the courtroom and present stuff that is not true and is not evidence. Parker: What did you think about Loper's ruling on Monday? Doug Evans: That's his ruling. He's the judge. I do my part. He does his. Parker: Did you expect him to rule in that way? Doug Evans: I don't ever expect anything. I just do my part and what the court rules is what the court rules. Madeleine Baran: Parker asked Doug Evans about his decision to skip the bail hearing and send an assistant Adam Hopper instead. On the day of the hearing, Evans was at a swearing in ceremony for local officials. Judge Loper wasn't pleased. Parker: And the reason you weren't there was because you had to go to the swearing in? Doug Evans: Reason I wasn't there is I sent somebody else. I have court in seven counties. I sent somebody to everything that's going on. Parker: So did Mr. Hopper relay back all that the judge said? Doug Evans: He did. Parker: The judge had a specific message for you? He sounded sort of unhappy. Doug Evans: That's his message. I had somebody there and it's not up to the court who I send to court. It's up to me. I can't be everywhere at the same time. If we have something in court, I will have somebody there. It'll either be me or one of my assistants. Madeleine Baran: Doug Evans told Parker his office hadn't been ready for the bail hearing. Doug Evans: The court and the defense counsel knew that we were asking for more time so that we could make a decision on this because of the pressure the defense was putting. I think that's one reason the court went forward with the motion. We weren't ready to go forward with the motion, but he called for the motion. So I sent somebody down there to argue. Parker: What'd you think when you heard Loper reacting the way he did? Doug Evans: He's the judge, he can react any way he wants to. Madeleine Baran: It's worth noting that attorneys on both sides can ask the court to reschedule if they can't make it to a hearing. We checked with Judge Loper's clerk and he said Doug Evans hadn't filed anything asking for a different date. And then Parker asked Doug Evans about something we've been hearing for the past few months that Evans might ask the state Attorney General's office to take over the case. The Mississippi Attorney General's office is the same office that handled the most recent appeal in Curtis's case. And the AG's office does sometimes take over cases from local DAs, usually in cases where the local DA has some kind of conflict of interest. During oral arguments. Before the Supreme Court earlier this year, Justice Alito asked the state's attorney why his office hadn't said enough already and taken over the case. But in Mississippi, the AGs office can't just come in. They have to be invited to take on a case by the local DA. Parker: It sounds like you're trying to maybe have someone from the Attorney General's office take over the case? Doug Evans: I've discussed it with them. Priscilla: Do you think they're willing to take it? Doug Evans: I can't, won't answer that. There's fixing to be a new Attorney General, so at this point, it's kind of up in there. Madeleine Baran: Right now, the Attorney General of Mississippi is a conservative Democrat named Jim Hood, but in January, a new attorney General will take over - a Republican named Lynn Fitch. She won election last November. Parker: So you've asked basically, and the request is in for them to take it over? Doug Evans: No, I hadn't asked anything. I've made discussions with different people. Parker: What do you think you'll base that decision on? Doug Evans: Just, I don't know at this point. When I decide, the court will know. Parker: Does it seem like the AG's office is willing to take the case? Doug Evans: Oh, they would be willing to. Sure. Parker: Will you give this case to the AG's office? If they don't look like they're going to try it a seventh time? Doug Evans: That'll be up to them. If they get in it or somebody else gets in it, it will be up to them. And if I keep it'll be up to me. I just want to make sure that if it's done, there's somebody that's confident handling it. Parker: Any idea when you'll make the decision? Doug Evans: When I make it. I just hadn't decided which way to go yet. And until I make that decision, it's still up in the air. I'm ready to go forward or I'm ready to step aside either one. Madeleine Baran: What Doug Evans just said is a big deal because having the case taken over by the AG's office would most likely be a good thing for Curtis Flowers. AT a news conference after the bail hearing, Curtis's lawyer Rob McDuff said he'd be fine with the AG taking over. He said, "they don't have Doug Evans' history of involvement in this case and can probably have a little more of an objective analysis of the weaknesses of the case." We asked the current AG, Jim Hood, for comment. His representative told us that the case wasn't currently theirs and therefore they couldn't comment. Lynn Fitch, the incoming AG also didn't comment. Parker: Have you talked to the victim's families at all about whether you should stay on or whether they'd like to see the AG's office come on? Doug Evans: No, I haven't. That's my decision. Parker: That's your decision. You'll decide without their input. Doug Evans: Yes. Parker: Do you think that you can stay on the case given what the US Supreme Court ruled and then even given Loper's ruling? Doug Evans: Rule? I do. And I don't think the US Supreme Court would've ruled that if it hadn't been for the lies in the podcast. Because the defense put a lot of the podcast stuff into their motion without me being up there to explain that to them. They lied on a lot of misinformation. Loper's ruling has nothing to do with the case. He just thought that I should have been there, which I felt like I needed to be somewhere else and I had someone to be there. His ruling has nothing to do with the case as far as what I heard. He was advised that some of the witnesses may recant. He doesn't know whether they will or not until they're under oath. Parker: Sure. But his ruling, have you watched the whole thing or heard the whole thing? Doug Evans: I have. Parker: So I mean, it was mostly predicated upon what I think he was calling weaknesses in the case in the state's case. Doug Evans: That's his opinion based on what the defense is telling him what's going on now, not based on what goes on in the courtroom and not based on evidence. So he is basing his opinion on things that he should not at this point. Parker: Do you think this case should be tried a seventh time? Doug Evans: Certainly. Because I have no doubt that he's guilty. There's a lot of evidence that we have never been able to introduce. For instance, the court has said on several occasions, when we had 15 people ready to go forward on him wearing Fila Grant Hill tennis shoes after we put the first one on, the judge said, "you've already proven that to the jury, it's no sense in putting the others on." Madeleine Baran: We spoke with many of the people who were identified in the investigative file as having seen Curtis wearing Fila Grant Hills, and almost all of them told us that they never said that. Evans also told Parker he had other route witnesses, people who could testify to seeing Curtis walking around town that day. Doug Evans: So there's plenty of evidence. There's no doubt that he's guilty of four counts of murder. Parker: So you want to see this case tried again. You want to see him sent back to death row. Doug Evans: He is guilty and he deserves to be convicted. Madeleine Baran: And then Doug Evans seemed to lose his patience. Doug Evans: All you want to do is try to stir up something for the defense and try to help them get a convicted murderer out of jail. And that's why the news has no respect anywhere anymore. Y'all's podcast is worse than the news in Washington because y'all's is a motive to intentionally attack the truth, try to make out lies and try to help the defendants get out of jail. And I am sick of it and I'm through. I've told you before, I really don't want to talk to you at all, but I'd went ahead and talked to you today. Maybe you'll leave me alone. Like the witnesses have asked you to leave them alone. I've had witnesses call me crying saying "Please do something to make these people quit harassing, because they are harassing me and my family now my family's even harassing me." Madeleine Baran: We'd never heard any of this before and Doug Evans didn't elaborate. Doug Evans: Every one of you that's done, that should be locked up and charged with intimidating witnesses because it's improper. So I'm going to ask you like I did at my house to leave. Parker: Okay. Just a final question on the topic of justice for the victim, sir. Okay, thank you. Thank you, Mr. Evans. Appreciate it. So he just turned away from me and started vacuuming up some sawdust on the ground, turned the vacuum on and went back to work. Madeleine Baran: Before the bail hearing last week, a lot of people following Curtis's case thought it was up to Doug Evans to decide what happens next. That if Evans opposed bail, bail wouldn't happen. That if Evans opposed having the charges dismissed, the judge wouldn't drop them. But at the bail hearing, something remarkable happened. Something that changed the dynamics of the case. The judge. Judge Loper, the same judge who'd presided over the past two trials and it often sided with the prosecution, seemed to change his mind. He questioned the evidence in the case. He implied that there was no more evidence against Curtis Flowers than there was against Willie James Hemphill. He even used the Old Testament to scold the state. Judge Loper: I just have this caution for the state of Mississippi. If it continues in its dilatory conduct and if it continues to ignore orders issued by the court, the state of Mississippi will reap the whirlwind, and Mr. Hopper- Madeleine Baran: And when Judge Lopper made his ruling that day, he sided with Curtis Flowers, not with the state. And for the first time, it seems possible that Judge Loper could side with Curtis again on a much bigger question. The defense has filed a motion asking the judge to dismiss the charges against Curtis entirely, but the judge hasn't ruled on it yet. Doug Evans is also facing pressure from the public. People from Evans' District and from all over the country have been calling Evans' office complaining about the way he's handled the flowers case. Doug Evans is also fighting at least one bar complaint related to his conduct in the Flowers case. And Evans is facing a class action lawsuit. In November, the NAACP legal Defense and educational fund and the MacArthur Justice Center filed suit against Doug Evans office on behalf of four black plaintiffs. Evans was served papers at his house a few weeks back. The suit relies on data developed by In The Dark. The plaintiffs allege that Evans is violating their constitutional rights by systematically preventing African-Americans from serving on juries. The suit asked the federal judge to issue an injunction to make the DA's office stop. This is Jim Craig from the MacArthur Justice Center. Jim Craig: We've known about Mr. Evans and his conduct for a long time, and it's time to say enough is enough. It's time for him to stop. Madeleine Baran: This fall, an influential local paper, the Greenwood Commonwealth, called on Doug Evans to step aside from the Flowers case. In an editorial, the paper wrote, quote, "Evans's role in prosecuting this horrible crime over the past two decades is beyond repair." It said, "A fresh set of prosecutorial eyes needs to be asked to examine the evidence and decide whether there is really enough to proceed. Evans has too much pride invested in this case to make that determination objectively." Despite all of this, it's still not clear exactly what will happen in Curtis's case in a case that's been tried six times with four convictions and two mistrials and a reversal by the US Supreme Court. No one knows for sure what will happen next. The party that Curtis' sister Priscilla hosted at her house the day Curtis got out of jail, went on until late in the night. Sherita: We probably was up to what, almost two or three o'clock that morning, chilled around talk. That's it. Madeleine Baran: Curtis went to sleep that night at Priscilla's house instead of in a prison cell. Sherita: Put him in his own room. King side bed. I rolled over the whole bed, he said I slept good. I said, I'm glad you did. Madeleine Baran: The next morning, Curtis woke up before the sun rose. Sherita: Walking around here singing, with his boxers on, enjoying himself. Madeleine Baran: He got dressed in clothes that Priscilla had bought him. He got into a pickup truck with Priscilla and they headed south. They stopped at a Sonic for breakfast. Sherita: He got the sausage toaster with a hash brown and a juice. Madeleine Baran: Priscilla drove to the Jackson Airport. She parked and walked in with Curtis and gave him a hug at security. Sherita: We both said, I love you. We gave some sugar and he went on. Yep. We gave each other a kiss and he went on. Madeleine Baran: And then Curtis boarded a plane and flew out of the state of Mississippi. We're not going to say exactly where he went because of concerns about his safety. We checked with Judge Loper's clerk and he told us, the judge is aware of Curtis's new location. Sherita: If it was your family member and the things that's going on in this world today, wouldn't you think it'll be best for him to go somewhere safer out of the negativity. Wouldn't you feel that way? Madeleine Baran: This is Curtis's sister, Sherita. Sherita: We're not worried because we believe in God. That showed y'all the 23 years we believe in God because as we know in our heart, is Curtis innocent. Some people believe otherwise, everybody got their own opinion. So right now, our family felt that was best for Curtis to leave Winona for now. Come back on things, not necessarily to die down. Hopefully when the truth go ahead and come out, prayer about and take it day by day. Wake up, praying, go to bed, praying. Ask God to bring him home safe, and maybe we all have a big Christmas together right here in Winona. We'll see. Madeleine Baran: In the Dark is reported and produced by me, Madeleine Baran, senior producer Samara Freemark, producer Natalie Jablonsky, associate producer Raymond Tongacar, and reporters, Parker Yesko and Will Craft with help from John Hernandez and Saby Robinson. Thanks also to Shelley Langford. In the Dark is edited by Catherine Winter. Web editors are Dave Mann and Andy Cruz. The editor in chief of APM Reports is Chris Worthington. Original music by Gary Meister and Johny Vansevenant. This episode was mixed by Eric Romani.