Madeleine Baran: It's been more than three years since I got an email from a woman telling me about a man named Curtis Flowers. In the time since, I'd moved to Mississippi, interviewed hundreds of people, examined every piece of evidence in the case against him. And yet, in all that time, there was one person I was never able to really talk to until now. So we are in the car on our way to talk to Curtis Flowers. Believe it or not. After all this time. Kind of crazy. I'm Madeleine Baran, and this is the final episode of season two of In The Dark: Curtis Flowers. All right. The other day I took a drive. I can't tell you exactly where I was, but I got out and set up in a backyard with the rest of the In The Dark crew, and I waited and then... Hello. Speaker 2: Hi. Curtis Flowers: How are you doing? Madeleine Baran: Nice to you. Speaker 2: Good morning. Madeleine Baran: Good morning, Curtis. Curtis Flowers: Doing all right? Madeleine Baran: I wish I could shake your hand, but I can't because of COVID. Curtis Flowers: I understand. Madeleine Baran: Yeah. Thanks for coming over. How was the drive? Curtis Flowers: It was nice. It was nice. Madeleine Baran: We sat down in the backyard at a safe social distance. All right. Wow. We're finally talking. Curtis Flowers: Yes. Madeleine Baran: How does it feel? Curtis Flowers: Feels good. Madeleine Baran: Yeah? Curtis Flowers: Feels good. Mm-hmm. Madeleine Baran: Are you at all nervous or? Curtis Flowers: Yeah, I'm kind of nervous. Madeleine Baran: Okay, okay. Well, we're just having a conversation. If you want to take a break at any point, take a break. Curtis Flowers: Okay. Madeleine Baran: If you need water, if you need snacks, if you just want water or want snacks, whatever- Curtis Flowers: Yes. Madeleine Baran: ... we'll just take it slow and- Curtis Flowers: Okay. Madeleine Baran: Yeah, so all right. And we're outside by the way, as we know, but I should just say it. The reason we're outside is because of COVID. Curtis Flowers: Okay. Madeleine Baran: So we're in a strange setup, but this has been a strange case, so- Curtis Flowers: Yes, it has. Madeleine Baran: ... maybe it makes sense. Yeah. What has it been like being out? Curtis Flowers: Oh, man. Kind of overwhelming. Madeleine Baran: Yeah. Curtis Flowers: Yeah. It's a good feeling. Happy to be home. Madeleine Baran: I bet. Curtis Flowers: Yes. Kicking it with family. Madeleine Baran: I'm not going to tell you where exactly Curtis is living now because of concerns about his safety, but I can tell you confidently that Curtis is with people who love him and care about him. He's been spending a lot of time just hanging out, playing dominoes, exercising. He's lost weight since the last time I saw him. A friend had even bought him a treadmill. He's also been back to Winona and he was finally able to meet his four-year-old nephew for the first time. Curtis Flowers: My nephew, Trill, he and I talked on the phone all the time. And I had this thing where every time he answered the phone I said, "What's up, Trill?" So he had never saw my face. And I remember walking into the house, he came over and I hid from him. And I just yelled out, "What's up, Trill?" And I was peeping around the corner, his eyes got so big because he recognized the voice, but he had never seen my face. So when I walked into view, he just stood there and stared at me for a long time. Madeleine Baran: Like shocked? Curtis Flowers: Yes. Finally, he moved and came gave me a hug. Madeleine Baran: Okay. Was he sort of freaked out? Curtis Flowers: Yes. Madeleine Baran: That is crazy then. I'm sure he was like, just couldn't know what to make of it. So much has changed since Curtis was locked up 24 years ago, and Curtis is still figuring it out. Like this one day when Curtis used the bathroom somewhere and he couldn't figure out how to flush the toilet. "Just walk away," someone told him. He's thinking, really? That's kind of rude. But then he did walk away and to his great surprise, the toilet flushed on its own. Or take coffee, for example. Curtis Flowers: I remember the first time they introduced me to cold coffee. I was like, "Who drinks cold coffee?" He said, "Oh, you just got to try it." So I got cold coffee, cream, little sugar, and fell in love with it. The next time we went back, he said, "You got to try the Frappuccino next." I said, "Hold on, hold on. That's a lot of sugar." He said, "You going to love it." And I tried it and loved it. And it has really been exciting though, coming home, being able to get up when you get ready, eat when you get ready, lay down when you get ready. Yeah, those things really been awesome. Madeleine Baran: I wanted to talk with Curtis about what his life was like before the murders, before he was arrested, back when he was just a kid growing up in Winona. Curtis Flowers: It was real nice. I hung out with family all the time, friends. Madeleine Baran: Yeah. What were your parents like growing up? Curtis Flowers: Oh, they were awesome. They took us somewhere every summer. We did everything together. Cookouts, family reunions. Yeah, it was fun. Madeleine Baran: Yeah. Did you play any sports or do- Curtis Flowers: Basketball. Madeleine Baran: Basketball? Curtis Flowers: Mm-hmm. A little football. Mom didn't let me play long, she didn't want me to get hurt. Madeleine Baran: Okay. Curtis Flowers: But she didn't like that. Madeleine Baran: She was worried about you getting injured? Curtis Flowers: Exactly. Madeleine Baran: And so when you were growing up, did you have any sense of what you wanted to do with the rest of your life? Curtis Flowers: Time, I remember my friends and I used to get together and talk about what we wanted to do after high school. And at the time I wanted to be a fireman. Madeleine Baran: Why did you want to be a fireman? Curtis Flowers: I don't know. I thought it was so cool to see them rushing through town on a firetruck, going to put out a fire. As I got older, that changed and I just didn't know what I wanted to do then. Madeleine Baran: One thing Curtis told me he started doing very early on, was singing. Curtis Flowers: Yes. Well, I started singing about at the age of 10. I used to sing my room a lot and my dad heard me one night, and I didn't know he was outside the door, but he come in and he said, "When are you going to start singing gospel?" He said, "You have a beautiful voice." And he said, "I'm not going to force you the way my dad and my uncle did me." He said, "Because if I make you sing, you're not going to give me your all." He said, "But if I let you come to me when you're ready, then you'll sing." And it was about a week later, and I started singing with him, going to rehearsals. And my mom, she was my big supporter. She just encouraged me on, "Sing, baby." Yeah, she would. MUSIC: There he is. Speaker 5: Take your time now. MUSIC: Jesus, Jesus. Speaker 5: Yeah! Madeleine Baran: For years while reporting on this case, the only time I'd actually heard Curtis Flowers' voice was on an old recording of him as a young man singing with a gospel group. MUSIC: I lock the door. Speaker 5: Yes. Speaker 6: Yes, sir. MUSIC: Every time, every time, every time. Madeleine Baran: So you're growing up, you're hanging out, playing basketball, hanging out with friends, family. Curtis Flowers: Yes. Madeleine Baran: Then you're in your twenties, you're staying in town, working a bunch of jobs. And then your life suddenly changes. Curtis Flowers: Suddenly changed. Yeah. Madeleine Baran: Curtis' life changed on July 16th, 1996, the day of the murders of four people at Tardy Furniture. On that day, shortly after the murders, police showed up at Curtis' door. Do you remember that? Curtis Flowers: Yeah. Madeleine Baran: And what did they say? Curtis Flowers: Just they said they wanted to talk to me downtown. Madeleine Baran: Did they say why? Curtis Flowers: They didn't say until I got down there. Madeleine Baran: Curtis was taken to the police station and sat down with the DA's investigator, John Johnson. And John Johnson started asking Curtis questions. Curtis Flowers: I said, "So you guys are suspecting me?" "No, no. We just want to make sure you are clear of all this. We knew you used to work there. It was for a short period of time. Nobody's accusing you of anything. We just want to talk to you briefly. Maybe you could help us." I said, "Well, any way I can." So I didn't think nothing of it at the time, I talked with them. Madeleine Baran: You didn't think to get a lawyer? Curtis Flowers: No. I mean, John Johnson made it sound sweet. Madeleine Baran: So all this is happening. John Johnson sort of describing it like- Curtis Flowers: Yeah. Madeleine Baran: ... "Don't worry, this is just sort of clear things up. See if you can help me"? Curtis Flowers: Yes. That's it. Madeleine Baran: Nothing to be concerned about? Curtis Flowers: Nothing to be concerned about. And then I remember leaving there. Talking about they didn't even take them back home, I had to walk. I gets home and there's a guy up the street. He comes down, he said, "Man, John Johnson and a couple other guys coming all through the neighborhood asking about you." Madeleine Baran: Oh, really? Curtis Flowers: Yeah. "They said you a suspect. And want to know did I know you or have I seen you moving about here and there?" And I said, "Damn, they just told me I was not a suspect." And I was, oh, to find out I was a suspect in a murder, it was just heartbreaking because I felt everybody knew me. I said, "Me?" Madeleine Baran: Curtis wasn't arrested for the murders right away. In fact, months past, while John Johnson and others continued to investigate the case. I wanted to ask Curtis about that time and about one person in particular, a man named Doyle Simpson. Doyle's dead now, I never got the chance to talk to him. But he's the guy who claimed that his gun was stolen from his car on the morning of the murders. At a certain point, Doyle had gone from being a suspect himself to being a witness for the prosecution testifying against Curtis. It looked as though Doyle got out of being a suspect by becoming a state's witness. Curtis told me something I'd never heard before. He said that same deal that seemed to have been offered to Doyle, according to Curtis, it had been offered to him too. Curtis Flowers: And I remember talking with Robert Tompkins, used to be the sheriff. He said, "Let me tell you something. Doug is looking for someone to put this on." He said, "There's no doubt in my mind, I do not believe you did this." He said, "But they got Doyle where they want him because he owned the gun. He really don't have no concrete alibi about where he was." But he said, "But they got Doyle scared, and I think Doyle is willing to say he believe you did it. And they will use him any way they can." He said, "Now, if you will speak and testify against Doyle Simpson, you'll be all right." I said, "I cannot say that man did this. I don't know." Madeleine Baran: That's really interesting. Curtis Flowers: He said, "Well, he's willing to say you did it." I told him, "Two wrongs don't make a right." I said, "I was raised better than that." Madeleine Baran: Over the years did you ever look back and think, maybe I should have said something about Doyle even if it wasn't true? Curtis Flowers: Well, no, because I just don't think that way. I never thought of just, oh, I'm just going to say Doyle did it just so they'll leave me alone. No. One of the things Daddy always say, "If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything." I can't say he did this. I just couldn't do it. To be sitting in a courtroom, look at someone in their face and say, "Yeah, I believe he did it," and I don't know. I couldn't do it. Madeleine Baran: Months passed. Curtis moved to Texas with his girlfriend at the time. He got a job at a grocery store and life was pretty normal. And then one day in January 1997, about six months after the murders, law enforcement showed up at his house. Curtis Flowers: I remember police showing up at the door. Matter of fact, I was hooking up some popcorn shrimp to take the work with me for lunch. And I answered the door and he said, "Sorry to bother you. I'm looking for Curtis Flowers." I said, "That's me." And next thing I know I was against the wall. And he told me, he said, "We have no beef with you or anything like that. We just have a warrant for your arrest back in Mississippi." And I said, "For what?" And he told me, and I said, "Oh, that can't be me." He said, "Well, your name's Curtis, right?" I said, "That's me." And they took me on down to the station. And matter of fact, they were dressing me out when John Johnson, Matthew, and I think the last name Miller? Madeleine Baran: Oh, Wayne Miller? Curtis Flowers: Yeah. When the three of them walked in. Madeleine Baran: John Johnson, the DA's investigator was there and Curtis said so were two state investigators, Wayne Miller and Jack Matthews. And you get in the car with them and they drive back with you to Winona? Curtis Flowers: Yes. Madeleine Baran: And that's a long drive, like seven hours. Curtis Flowers: A long drive. Madeleine Baran: What was that drive like? Curtis Flowers: It was very quiet on my part. Then they're trying to strike conversation or ask you certain things and stuff like that. He said, "You don't have anything to say?" I said, "No, I don't." Madeleine Baran: But they tried to, were they trying to talk to you? Curtis Flowers: Yeah. John Johnson sat in the backseat with me. Madeleine Baran: Oh, really? Curtis Flowers: Mm-hmm. Madeleine Baran: The whole time? Curtis Flowers: The whole time. Madeleine Baran: Wow. Curtis Flowers: Yeah. Madeleine Baran: Trying to get you to- Curtis Flowers: Yes. Madeleine Baran: ... basically say, "I did this"? Curtis Flowers: Yes. And all I did was just stare out the window the whole time. Madeleine Baran: Wow. Curtis Flowers: I was so happy to see Mississippi because my neck was hurting, it had been turned one way the whole time. Madeleine Baran: Wow. Curtis Flowers: And all he did was just ask questions, but I never said anything. Madeleine Baran: Curtis was taken to jail to await trial. What are you thinking is going to happen at the trial? Curtis Flowers: They would prove my innocence. Madeleine Baran: They'd prove your innocence? Curtis Flowers: Yes. Madeleine Baran: At the end of this, they're going to say, "Not guilty"? Curtis Flowers: Yeah. I was thinking, surely they will see through this. You know? Madeleine Baran: Yeah. Curtis Flowers: As you can see, that didn't work out. Madeleine Baran: The trial began. And Curtis told me he watched as witness after another, got up and testified to things he said he knew weren't true. Like that they'd spotted him near the furniture store that morning, walking the route the DA Doug Evans said he took. One day at trial, in walked a guy Curtis had actually shared a cell with, a fellow inmate in the jail. A guy named Frederick Veal. Curtis Flowers: Veal couldn't even look at me. He said, "Yeah, he admitted to the crimes." And I was like, "Oh, Lord." I remember looking around at my mom and she said, "Just be cool." It was nerve-racking. Madeleine Baran: And what about someone like Clemmie Fleming or any of the people who testify on the route? These are people you grew up with. Curtis Flowers: Yeah. Madeleine Baran: You would've known them sort of, or see them around? Curtis Flowers: Yeah. And I used to see Clemmie in passing. As a matter of fact, they family used to live right up on the next street from my mom and dad, yeah. Madeleine Baran: Right. Like around the corner. Curtis Flowers: Yes. And to see her get out there, I kind of felt sorry for her because there were other people saying that she was pressured to do what she did. Madeleine Baran: Clemmie Fleming recanted years later in an interview with us. She said her testimony that she saw Curtis running away from the furniture store on the morning of the murders wasn't true. Frederick Veal and the other so-called jailhouse informants also later admitted they'd lied. Curtis Flowers: But I just don't understand why people would just go and just lie like that. To hear people take that witness stand and just flat foot tell a lie, and there's nothing you could do about it. You can't say anything. If you do, people going to think weird of you now. "Oh, maybe, look how he lashing out." But it was hard to sit there and just hear things and not be able to say anything. Madeleine Baran: Right. Because you know people are up there lying. Curtis Flowers: Yeah, yeah. And you got a jury you already on thin rope with it. So you have to just keep your composure and just listen. Madeleine Baran: And the person calling all those lying witnesses to the stand was the prosecutor, District Attorney Doug Evans. Curtis Flowers: I sit in that courtroom, and it's like Doug always looked over my way and he always had a smile on his face. Yes. And- Madeleine Baran: And Doug Evans would look, you'd look over- Curtis Flowers: Yes. Madeleine Baran: ... and he'd be smiling at you? Curtis Flowers: Every time down. When he sat down, he would always have this thing where he lean, and he looked my way and he'd just smile. Madeleine Baran: What do you make of that? Curtis Flowers: Well, I wanted to say something. Madeleine Baran: How you're talking about it, it feels like he started saying, "I own the place." Curtis Flowers: Yes, and- Madeleine Baran: "This is my place." Curtis Flowers: At some point, I believed it. I'm serious. He gets everything he wanted. Madeleine Baran: In that first trial, the all-white jury deliberated for one hour and six minutes before coming back with its verdict, guilty. Curtis Flowers: Oh, it just took all the air out of me. It really did. I'm talking about I was so hurt that I was numb with it. You know? Madeleine Baran: Like you didn't see it coming? Curtis Flowers: I didn't see it coming at all. Madeleine Baran: So the jury comes back, they say, "Guilty." Then we have sentencing. And then they come back and they say, "Death penalty." Curtis Flowers: Yes. Madeleine Baran: And I wonder if you can talk to me about that moment. Curtis Flowers: Oh, I can't even describe the feeling to you. It was like having the air sucked out of you. You can't breathe. I think I felt relieved to get out of the courtroom back to a holding cell where I could just sit for a minute. I just couldn't believe it. And I remember one of the deputies said, "Your mom want to speak with you," and he let her back there. Yes. And we talked for a minute and she told me, "Keep your head up. Don't give up. I know it's a lie. You know it's a lie." She said, "Everybody know you know it's one, but don't give up." I don't think it really sunk in until I got to Parchman. Madeleine Baran: Yeah, I was thinking about what that would've been like for you. You're in your mid-twenties, you've had this life really close with your family. Curtis Flowers: Yes. Madeleine Baran: And all of a sudden you're in prison. Curtis Flowers: In prison. Madeleine Baran: And so when you got there, what do you remember that... Do you remember that first day or that first night? Curtis Flowers: Yes. I remember going through a strip search. And I said... And I thought that was one of the weirdest things. Man, we had someone, "Well, I'm going to need you to take off all your clothing." Last time I heard that was a pretty woman. But you have to bend, cough. They want to check you, see any, all the tattoos you got got to be recorded. And I later find out it just in case a inmate runs off, they could put out there what type of tattoos and everything he has. Yes. But it was rough to hear those bars slammed behind you, and placed in a small cell, and every day looked like it was getting smaller and smaller. Madeleine Baran: Really? Curtis Flowers: Yes. It was rough, it really was. To hear other inmates crying out at night and, "So-and-so, so-and-so, officer, I need a officer here, I think so-and-so, so-and-so in cell so-and-so done hung himself." And it was just heartbreaking. Madeleine Baran: Because you can hear all of this in your cell? Curtis Flowers: I can hear all of this. You can't see them, but you can hear him. Madeleine Baran: What did your cell look like? Curtis Flowers: Oh, like a shed. Madeleine Baran: Like a shed? Curtis Flowers: Yeah. There was a concrete bunk, there was a toilet, there was a sink, and there was a little stand for a little small TV, and that was it. Then as time went on, it just got worse and worse. Then the sewer system started backing up. The plumbing, water wouldn't go straight down. And- Madeleine Baran: So your toilet would be backing up? Curtis Flowers: Yes. Madeleine Baran: Into your cell? Curtis Flowers: Yes. Madeleine Baran: No air conditioning, of course? Curtis Flowers: No air conditioning for death row. Madeleine Baran: Yeah. Curtis Flowers: No, nothing but heat. Oh, it got pretty hot in there. I'm talking about when you just sit and constantly sweat. Yes. And you were just praying for rain because that made things a lot cooler. And then it was short-lived because the mosquitoes got even better after that. And it was rough. Madeleine Baran: Yeah, your mother told me that sometimes there were even rats in the prison. Curtis Flowers: Oh, yes. Ohm yes. You could hear them all night just running up and down the hallway. I think I had caught so many rats on a sticky trap. I had took and put a Ritz cracker on it and set it at the door. And I'm telling you, I got up one morning, I know I had at least six rats on that one trap trying to get to that cracker. Yeah, yeah. Parchman, Mississippi. Yes. Just terrible over there. Madeleine Baran: So how did it feel to be there and to be like, "I'm innocent. I don't belong here"? Curtis Flowers: Yes. I used to say that a lot too. And it became where I thought I was sounding like a broken record. I said, "Well, you know the inmates probably say this all the time." Madeleine Baran: Oh, that they're innocent? Curtis Flowers: Yes. And not, you know? And- Madeleine Baran: And be obviously guilty? Curtis Flowers: Yes. And I think as time went on, I learned that I couldn't help myself if I was down and out all the time. And I talk with my mom a lot, and I started reading a lot, and got into Word, and it gave me some sort of peace. But I just don't think I could have got through it without family and support. Always checking in on me and everything. Having a family that loved me and supported me. Madeleine Baran: So many people lose all of that when they're in prison for so long. Their friends stop being interested in them or they just get busy. Curtis Flowers: Yes. Madeleine Baran: Parents stop showing up. But that doesn't sound like was the case for you. Curtis Flowers: No, it wasn't. Like I said, my mom, dad, they were always there. Speaker 2: Every two weeks we'd go. We don't miss a visit. Curtis Flowers: Even when the prison was on institutional lockdown, they were out there trying to get in. Madeleine Baran: So what happened? Lola Flowers: Oh, they on lockdown. The whole thing on lockdown. Curtis Flowers: They never missed a visit. Madeleine Baran: So you came all this way for nothing? Lola Flowers: Mm-hmm. Sure did. Madeleine Baran: So you'll come back in two weeks? Lola Flowers: Mm-hmm. Curtis Flowers: There was one time we had a little ice storm and my mom, she slipped and slid on in there. Yes. And I told her, "You could have stayed at home." She said, "No, I have to see you." Madeleine Baran: How did that feel? Curtis Flowers: It felt great. It felt great to have, because I was around a lot of death row inmates who didn't have that. And I watched guys self-destruct, and some get psych meds and can't even tell you what day it is. Yeah. They just that strung out on it. And it was saddening. Yeah. I never took a psych drug or anything. Madeleine Baran: I wanted to talk to you a little bit about what it was like when your parents came to visit you in Parchman. Curtis Flowers: Oh, it was a bunch of laughter. Madeleine Baran: Laughter? Curtis Flowers: Yeah. We shed tears sometime talking about different things, but it was mostly laughter. I never wanted to see my mom and dad unhappy or sad. So a lot of times when I go in, I'm already joking, and I get her to laughing and the whole visit just go from there. We talk about old times and things like that, and that was very uplifting. Madeleine Baran: Yeah, your father talked to us a lot about how you would sing together when he went to visit you. Curtis Flowers: Mm-hmm. MUSIC: Say you love Jesus. Say you love Jesus. If you love Jesus- Curtis Flowers: Gave me peace. MUSIC: ... you ought to show some sign. Madeleine Baran: We'll be back after the break. When Curtis first went to prison, he actually didn't think he'd be there very long. He assumed that if he won his appeal, he'd be going home. Curtis Flowers: And you know, that first year went by, I was like, wow. I remember there were times when I talked with my mom, but I've shed tears. And she said, "Baby, it's going to be all right." And I remember sitting there and sitting there, and just waiting, and hoping, and praying. Madeleine Baran: Curtis eventually did win his first appeal, and his second, and his third. But every time the DA Doug Evans just tried the case again. And Curtis told me that what this looked like for him was that when his conviction was overturned, he'd leave death row. He'd say goodbye to the inmates and the guards basically hoping that he'd never see them again. And then he'd get taken to a local jail where he'd wait for his next trial, where he could see his family and friends a lot more, where he had a little more freedom, a little more space, a little more hope. But then Curtis would be convicted again, and sentenced to death again, and he'd be sent right back to death row. Curtis Flowers: They would snatch me out, try me, sent me right back. Then they tried me again. That was hurtful there. Madeleine Baran: Prison to jail, jail to prison. On death row, off death row. Back and forth. It went on like this for so long. Curtis Flowers: And it's so sad and heartbreaking when you sit there and there's nothing you can do about it. Days go by, it's been years. And I just want that relief. I get close to home so many times and it was like Doug Evans would just find out another way to put me back. Madeleine Baran: When you would come back then to Parchman, did Parchman seem even worse every time you came back? Curtis Flowers: Yes, it did. Yes it did. And it was worse every time I came back. I think being able to talk to certain officers who were just real nice, they hate to see me come back. Madeleine Baran: Really? That you'd come back and what would they say? Curtis Flowers: "Oh, man, I can't believe they sent you back, man. You have got to get your trial out of there or something, man, because that DA is something else." Madeleine Baran: Another trial meant another time Curtis would watch as DA Doug Evans and his assistant prosecutors struck one Black juror after another, always ending up with a jury that was either all white or mostly white. Curtis told me it was obvious to him what Doug Evans was trying to do. Curtis Flowers: Well, I chalked that up to Doug being good at dirty work because he was using those strikes to get rid of them. Madeleine Baran: When you look over at the jury box and you see it is all white people, what do you think? Curtis Flowers: We should have not even had this trial. I've thought that many times. Yes. But I remember when having a conversation with Attorney Ray Charles Carter. And he picked the jury once, and he looked over at me, he leaned over me, he said, "What do you think?" I said, "It's over with before it even get started." And I said, "Look how they're looking at me. Man," I said, "and they done already expressed how they feel about it before..." And then Doug was doing this thing where he said, "Do you think you could set your feelings aside and base your decision on what you hear from the witness stand?" And it's just the way they look at him and say, "Yes, I can." And you know it wasn't true. But the more it went on, the worse I felt. Madeleine Baran: Curtis told me that he started to feel a little more hope in trials four and five. In those trials, the juries were a little more diverse, and in both of them, the jury hung. They couldn't agree on a verdict. Curtis Flowers: And I said, "Well, maybe we're getting somewhere now. They starting to see Doug Evan's lies." Madeleine Baran: But then trial six came around, and once again, Curtis was convicted, this time by a jury of 11 white people and one Black person. And Curtis was sent back to death row. When you were back in prison and you kept coming back, did you ever feel like, "You know what? I'm just done. I'm done trying to fight this"? Curtis Flowers: It crossed my mind a couple of times, but I always thought about family, friends, and how hard my mom fought for me and stuff like that. These things kept me motivated. Madeleine Baran: So if you hadn't had family like that, you might've just- Curtis Flowers: I may have. Yes. Because it was a thought a time or two. So I think if it wasn't for them, I may have. Yeah, because you see it all the time. And some people just give up. You see guys, like I said, getting drugged by psych doctors and they encourage them to take something. And I just don't understand it because they just sleep all the time. You have some lash out and act up, they go in and give them a shot. You might not hear from that inmate about two days, just sleeping. I don't know what it was they were giving them in them syringes, but hey, yeah, it was tough. Madeleine Baran: So all around you people are, in no surprise, not dealing with this well at all. I mean, everybody's panicking. Curtis Flowers: Yes. Madeleine Baran: People are getting sedated basically- Curtis Flowers: Exactly. Madeleine Baran: ... just to get them through it. Because you also would see people leave to be executed, right? Curtis Flowers: Exactly. Madeleine Baran: And can you talk a little bit about that? Curtis Flowers: Well, I was there during three or four of them. I think the hardest part was hearing that they had set a date for a inmate, and then you have to be on the same zone with them. And this is a person you usually hear talk a lot, but they don't. And guards and nurses come around every day leading up to that. They would give a inmate whatever he needed to calm him. I heard, my next door neighbor said that they had just gave someone Valium. I said, "I didn't even think they had those anymore." And to hear them, they're so calm and quiet. You had some try to take their own lives because they didn't want to be executed in front of people. So they have to be taken, put in suicide cell and strapped down in a straightjacket until that time. But it was... It just takes your breath away to be that close to someone getting ready to be executed. Then there was some who went and the governor gave him whatever you call that- Madeleine Baran: Where you commute the sentence? Curtis Flowers: Mm-hmm. Where they come back and they stay so many days- Madeleine Baran: For the last minute? Curtis Flowers: Yes. Madeleine Baran: Last minute? Curtis Flowers: And to see a inmate come back and be so happy. And yet, a few days later they take them anyway. And I thought that was the worst part. You bring them back and they have all this hope that things are going to change, and then still get taken up there and executed, oh. And I thought that was the worst feeling. I remember hearing a inmate not too far from me, his last request, he wanted a cheeseburger, he wanted shrimp, he wanted fried catfish, a milkshake. And they give him all this. And they took him over and they brought him back the next day. And when they come back to get him again, he said, "Well, just look at the bright side, you get to have what you want to eat again." Madeleine Baran: Did it make you think about what it would be like if this happened to you? Curtis Flowers: Yes. Yes. I'm talking about it stirs all kinds of emotions. Here I am in here on a crime I did not commit. What if that me next? You know? Madeleine Baran: So maybe we could talk a little bit, jump to the moment when we first found out about your case. And so the way that I found out about it was a woman emailed me. She was just a random woman. Curtis Flowers: Oh. Madeleine Baran: Yeah. Who said, "There's this guy in Mississippi named Curtis Flowers who's been tried six times for the same crime." She said, "The evidence against him is iffy, but he didn't have a chance." And that was pretty much it. And at first I was like, "This isn't possible. Six trials? No. There's no way that someone's been tried six times." Curtis Flowers: Oh, yeah. Madeleine Baran: And then we found out, no, it's true. And then I think a pretty short time after that, I wrote you a letter. And I don't know, do you remember getting the letter? Curtis Flowers: Yes, yes, I still have that letter. Yes. And I remember talking with one of the attorneys at the time, "Is it okay to write back?" "Well, I don't think you should at this time because you don't want them to get where if you write Madeleine, she could get subpoenaed, or a judge try to have the letter taken and flip it into something that it's not." So I was encouraged not to do it at the time, but I always got your letters and I kept them. Madeleine Baran: You kept them? Curtis Flowers: Yes. I used to talk to my mom about you. I used to tell her tell you, "Hello." Yes. "And tell her I thank her for everything she's doing." Madeleine Baran: Had people gotten your hopes up in some ways before? Like had a reporter written to you before? Curtis Flowers: No. Madeleine Baran: No? Curtis Flowers: No. Madeleine Baran: Okay. And so did you have a sense of what we were doing while we were doing it? Because I wrote to you a couple times- Curtis Flowers: Yes. Madeleine Baran: ... but I never wrote to you and said, "These are the people I've talked to," or, "This is what I'm finding out." Curtis Flowers: No, I did not. I just knew at some point you guys were going around and talking to people. Madeleine Baran: We sent you transcripts when the podcast came out. Did you get those in prison? Curtis Flowers: Yes, I did. Still have them. Madeleine Baran: And what was it like reading those? Curtis Flowers: Oh, it was a great feeling inside to see all this unfolding and everything. The people you guys have talked to and people who were just willing to talk and tell everything. And I said, "Because we could not get that done." I don't know what it is, or you guys were just so charming or whatever, but we couldn't get it done at first. Madeleine Baran: Because you're reading pretty big things that are happening. Curtis Flowers: Yes. Madeleine Baran: I wonder about when you were reading and the witnesses who said they saw you walking around town that morning are now telling us that, some of them, that that story is not true. Curtis Flowers: Yes. Madeleine Baran: You're sitting in your cell reading that and what do you... Curtis Flowers: A lot of times I say to myself, "Ooh, it's about time. What took so long?" But I was happy they did it. Madeleine Baran: Oh, so you would see someone finally admit- Curtis Flowers: Exactly. Madeleine Baran: ... "Yeah, that testimony was false. Yes, I gave it six times-" Curtis Flowers: Yes. Madeleine Baran: ... "in six different trials." And you'd think like, come on, why couldn't you- Curtis Flowers: Exactly. And I remember reading about something, some guy, I can't remember his name, said that, "I was only saying what they wanted me to say so they'd leave me alone." It was depressing sometimes to read things like that. But then I was happy that they did come through. And I think the more things I heard about you guys, and the episodes that they come out, it really brightened my day. And I'm telling you, to hear all the stuff that was going on and people recanting their stories and stuff like that, and I, "Oh, what took so long?" But it really made me feel good to have you guys investigating this. Madeleine Baran: And so when you're reading these transcripts, do you remember, are there like a couple moments that stood out to you in particular? Things we found out or? Curtis Flowers: I think the biggest thing that really stood out to me right away is when I saw that Odell had done turn against Doug Evans and told the truth. Odell: Far as him telling me he killed some people, hell nah, he ain't never told me that. That was a lie. Curtis Flowers: And I was like, "How did Madeleine and them even get in touch with him?" This was going through my head. Madeleine Baran: That was Samara, but yeah. Curtis Flowers: Yes. Madeleine Baran: Because he'd stuck by that. Curtis Flowers: Yes. Madeleine Baran: And you knew it wasn't true, but- Curtis Flowers: Yes. Madeleine Baran: ... there's a big difference between knowing it's not true- Curtis Flowers: Exactly. Madeleine Baran: ... and getting him to say it. Curtis Flowers: And I think I was always frustrated about Odell because I felt that Doug would take somebody like Odell and just get whatever he wanted from him. And to hear that he recanted his story, I just couldn't believe it. I just couldn't believe it. Madeleine Baran: So when you're sitting in there, in your cell and you're reading this, do you call someone or what do you do? Curtis Flowers: Yes, I even talked with Angela. Madeleine Baran: Angela is one of Curtis' sisters. Curtis Flowers: No, she said, in her word, "Boy, just know things are going good out here. They uncovering stuff." She said, at the time she said, "I don't know where Madeleine and them come from, but I'm glad they're here." I said, "Nah." But yeah, things really started to pick up for me and I could breathe a lot easier. So I just kept talking with family and just waited. And my mom used to always say, "You done come this far, you cannot give up now." She said, "Don't roll over and take whatever they throwing at you. Don't settle." And I just kept fighting, kept fighting. Madeleine Baran: Yeah. At a certain point you probably started getting a lot of mail, right? Curtis Flowers: Oh, yes. Especially after you guys got started and started putting the episodes out there, the mail just started ringing in. Madeleine Baran: Like how much mail are we talking? Curtis Flowers: Oh, I'm talking 10, 14 letters a day, sometime more. And sometimes I would go through them. There was some, I said, "Well, I'm going to hold off to tomorrow and read these." But it was just so much mail, it could get overwhelming sometimes. Madeleine Baran: Yeah. Your mom actually talked to me about this and said that she gave you some advice because you were a little stressed almost about the amount of mail. Curtis Flowers: Yes. Madeleine Baran: And she said, she told you like, "Curtis, you don't have to write everyone back." Curtis Flowers: Yes. And I told her, I said, "I'm doing nothing, so I may as well." Madeleine Baran: What were people saying in the letters? Curtis Flowers: Oh, they had heard about the case through In The Dark, and they can't believe I was still locked up, and they're praying for me. "If you just need someone to talk to, I'm always here. Please write me. Or if you want to call, put my number on your list." And I got so many of those that I couldn't put them on there. I can only have 10 numbers at a time. And so I just write them down in my address book and I just held onto them. Madeleine Baran: So you went from a lot of isolation, you're still in prison at this point- Curtis Flowers: Yes. Madeleine Baran: ... but all of a sudden people all around the country, and I think also all around the world in some cases, are- Curtis Flowers: Yes. Madeleine Baran: ... aware of your case, are writing to you. Curtis Flowers: Exactly. Madeleine Baran: What did that feel like? Curtis Flowers: It felt great. I was getting postcards and letters from all the way over in the Netherlands and everything. Madeleine Baran: Then people started sending photos, hundreds of photos. Curtis Flowers: I remember one time they did a shakedown and officer told me, he said, "You have too many photos in this room." He said, "Don't you know you are only allowed 35 at a time?" And he said, "When every time you get pictures, you have to pick out the 35 you want and get rid of the rest or put them in storage." A lieutenant walked in behind him, he said, "Well, they keep it so well organized, just let him have them." Madeleine Baran: So these are all- Speaker 2: Sent to him. Madeleine Baran: ... photos that people sent you? Curtis Flowers: A bunch of photos, yeah. Yes. Madeleine Baran: Curtis saved all those photos... This person wrote the back, the revolution will be mailed... ... and showed them to me. ... #BlackLettersMatter. There are pictures of families, pictures of smiling babies, pictures of peoples' vacations. Curtis Flowers: This one female sent me a picture from Hawaii. She just wrote in the sand, Aloha, Curtis. Madeleine Baran: Someone sent you a photo from Harry Potter World? Curtis Flowers: Yes. I just look at all these bright pictures and I find myself just drifting off into them. Madeleine Baran: What's this about? Curtis Flowers: Good eating. Madeleine Baran: People even sent pictures of their dinners. Curtis Flowers: Cheeseburger, corn on the cob with some type of cheese or something on it. Madeleine Baran: When you're in prison, is that the sort of photo that you want or not want? Curtis Flowers: Oh, it sure look good looking at it at the time. If you are in a place like that for so long, you love seeing different food, good food. Madeleine Baran: So this is the stuff that you had to kind of take your mind off things? Curtis Flowers: Exactly. But it was nice to receive them though. Madeleine Baran: Things were starting to look up for Curtis. But then his mother, the person Curtis was closest to, started not feeling so well. Curtis Flowers: She was in pain and everything, and she came to see me. Madeleine Baran: She came to see you right before? Curtis Flowers: Yes, and she kept getting up, going to the bathroom. And I said, "What's wrong with you?" And she told me she was in a lot of pain. And I said, "Well, why did you come over here?" She said, "I just had to see you again." And hang on. And the following week she passed. And I just couldn't believe she came over there feeling like that. Madeleine Baran: She was feeling really sick? Curtis Flowers: Yes. And I remember she told me when she got ready to leave, she said, "When I leave here, I'm going to the hospital." And the following week she passed away. Madeleine Baran: Did you get to say goodbye? Curtis Flowers: No, I didn't. I talked to her the night before and I told her, I said, "Well I'll call you in the morning, see how you doing." But when I called, Angela answered her phone and she told me she had passed away. Madeleine Baran: So your sister told you? Curtis Flowers: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that was a sad moment. So I pretended that it was my turn to go to the shower because I didn't want her to hear me. You know? Madeleine Baran: You told your sister, "I've got to go"? Curtis Flowers: Yeah. "The officer at my door, he ready to take me to the shower." And I just didn't want her hearing me crying or nothing. Madeleine Baran: Why? Curtis Flowers: Because they were going through enough as it is. And to know that I was there upset, crying, then they're just worrying about me now. So yeah, I got off the phone with her and got it out. And she and I eventually started talking again and she said, "Where you been all day?" I just couldn't talk to them right then. I couldn't, because everybody was so sad. And it was rough. It was rough. Yeah. All right, let me get through this. Because I get emotional. Madeleine Baran: Well, it's normal though, right? Curtis Flowers: Yes. Madeleine Baran: And I imagine a lot of what you were thinking about being out- Curtis Flowers: Yes. Madeleine Baran: ... was about being with your mom. Curtis Flowers: Yes. And I miss her. Sitting around in the kitchen talking, teaching me all these good things, all these good recipes and- Madeleine Baran: Yeah, she told us she was collecting. You would send her recipes and she would collect them for you? Curtis Flowers: Yeah, these were things I want to try and if I see it, I would cut it out and just mail it to her and tell her to put it up for me. Yes. All the good cooking. Yes. And just talking. Because I could talk to my mom about anything. Yes. Madeleine Baran: Yeah. There were so many times when we would be over at your parents' house, and she would get a call from you and go in the other room. So it seemed like you were having conversations all the time. Curtis Flowers: Oh, yes. I talked with my mom just about every day. She would get upset if I didn't call. Madeleine Baran: Yeah? Curtis Flowers: Yeah. I told her, "There's phone bills, so I try not to call every day." She said, "You let me worry about that." Yes. So we talked all the time, sometime twice a day. And her passing, oh, it took a lot out of me. It really did. Yeah, my mom, she was my rock. Madeleine Baran: Lola Flowers told me again and again that she was certain that one day her son Curtis would be free. Lola Flowers: God going to work this thing out, I do believe. Might not be when we want to, but he going to do. Curtis coming out. Madeleine Baran: But she didn't live to see it happen. She'd been gone four months when Curtis' story made headlines around the country because the U.S. Supreme Court had agreed to take the case. A few months later, they reversed his conviction. Curtis packed up his cell and got ready to leave death row. Curtis Flowers: And one of the officers told me, said, "You not coming back this time. I can just feel it. And if you do, I'm putting you in the hole." And I said, "Well, I hope I don't come back this time." And they walked me out and everything, I'm talking about would carry my bags. Yes. It was a lot of them happy to see me go. Madeleine Baran: On his way out Curtis stopped by the hospital wing to pick up his insulin medication. They handed it to him in a plastic bag. Curtis Flowers: One of the nurses, she had wrote on it with a black Magic Marker, put on there, this is our last time seeing you here. Yeah. She said, "I know you going home." Madeleine Baran: But Curtis still wasn't free. He was still under indictment for the murders. Still locked up in a local jail waiting for his next hearing, the hearing that would decide whether he'd be granted bail. Curtis Flowers: I think the closer the bail hearing got, the more nervous I got. I said, "I've been this close many times and then have to go right back. Hopefully they get it right this time." And I remember getting to the county jail and there were officers, lieutenants, chief of security, and we talked. And he said, "Man, let me tell you something..." I know a lot of them. And I got a chance to know Loper. Loper has done a 360 since probably the last time you saw him in a courtroom. He said, "And I really don't believe they're going to try you again." Madeleine Baran: So the guards told you that- Curtis Flowers: Yes. Madeleine Baran: ... the judge had changed his mind? Curtis Flowers: He said, "I really believe Lopez was going to change his mind." Madeleine Baran: So when you went to the bail hearing, which is the first time we were in the same room together, you you knew that already? Curtis Flowers: No, I didn't know-know. I wasn't for sure. Madeleine Baran: Well, yeah. Curtis Flowers: But I thought- Madeleine Baran: You've been through it so many times- Curtis Flowers: Exactly. Madeleine Baran: ... that how could you possibly be for sure until it's, until you see it in writing- Curtis Flowers: Yes. Madeleine Baran: ... or hear it from the judge. Curtis Flowers: Exactly. Madeleine Baran: Yeah. But you kind of were thinking maybe? Curtis Flowers: I believed it. I hoped it. And it wasn't until we would come back out the recess and Loper just started talking, and as he went on and on and on. Judge Loper: Caution for the State of Mississippi that- Curtis Flowers: And when he started to say- Judge Loper: ... continues to- Curtis Flowers: ... some bad things about Doug- Judge Loper: ... [inaudible 00:50:26] by the court, the State of Mississippi will reap the whirlwind. Curtis Flowers: ... I said, "Oh, this might work. He may just give it to me." Judge Loper: Consequently, it is the finding of this court that Mr. Flowers is entitled to bail. Curtis Flowers: They granted me bail. And oh, I didn't even know how to act. Yes. And I got back to that county jail and I just pranced back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And eventually they told me, "All right, Flowers, get all your stuff, come out." And I was so happy. That was a good moment right there. Madeleine Baran: And what was that like when you walked out of jail? Curtis Flowers: Oh, it was real fun and exciting until I turned the bend and I saw all the cameras and stuff. I said, "Oh, they didn't even warn me about this." Speaker 10: Hello, Curtis. Curtis Flowers: Hey, how y'all doing? And Rob was behind me, he said, "You're going to do good." I said, "I don't know now." Then my sisters, they were on each arm and that really helped. Speaker 10: How are you feeling? Speaker 11: How are you feeling right now? Curtis Flowers: I feel good right now. I'm happy I'm out. Speaker 11: What are you looking forward to now that you're out? Curtis Flowers: Spending time with family. Yeah, and talking with Ms. Madeleine soon. Madeleine Baran: Yeah, yeah. Curtis Flowers: A real fun moment. And I think the funniest part of that is when we pulled out of the parking lot at the jail, I was changing clothes in the back of the truck. And my baby sister, she was like this, "I can't believe you changing clothes right now." I said, "Yeah, I got to put on something comfortable." Yes. But it was real fun. Got to the house and they had the fish fry. And we just had fun half the night. And I said, "I'll be ready in the morning." Madeleine Baran: Ready to leave? Curtis Flowers: Mm-hmm. Madeleine Baran: Yeah. Curtis Flowers: I left Winona because I saw a lot of people in Winona who supported me and everything, but everybody don't feel that way. I just can't help but assume that. And so I just feel it's, I shouldn't have to worry about anything. So I left and decided to just move away. I told my dad I would pop back in from time to time and visit. But Winona is not somewhere I would just want to go and hang out. Madeleine Baran: And how come? Curtis Flowers: Well, just to be safe and I don't want to have my family worry, stuff like that. So I just decided to move away. Madeleine Baran: Curtis left Winona and then he waited until... Speaker 12: After nearly 23 years in prison, Curtis Flowers tonight is a free man. All charges have been dropped. Mississippi Attorney General Lynn Fitch's office made that announcement less than... Madeleine Baran: ... it was finally over. And from that point on, for the first time in decades, Curtis' life was truly his own. He could do what he wanted, go where he wanted. He went back to Winona for a few weeks, visited his father. Curtis Flowers: We sat on the porch every day and just talk all day long, and just watch the traffic go up and down the highway. We sing a few songs together, and we just laugh and talk, hang out in the yard. Hanging out with family. Madeleine Baran: Then Curtis left again, went back to the safe place he's staying now. The place where he is figuring out what his new life will look like. So when you look back at all of this, 23 years, six trials, why do you think all this happened? Curtis Flowers: To this day I still wonder about that. I often think about all that I've been through and it's sad. Still a lot of people that I'm disappointed in, but I find that if I sit around and stress over this and that, it only just makes it worse. So I just try to let it go. Madeleine Baran: The prosecutor, Doug Evans, he's still the district attorney. Curtis Flowers: Yes. Madeleine Baran: Is there anything that you would want to say to Doug Evans? Curtis Flowers: No. No. Just be honest about that, no, I wouldn't. Madeleine Baran: How come? Curtis Flowers: Some things just don't need to be said. What's understood is understood. I feel that Doug was wrong and he knew he was wrong. But as far as a conversation, no. Madeleine Baran: When you picture your life like five, 10 years from now, what do you see? Curtis Flowers: I hope to see Curtis up and doing a lot better. Moving on in life, and maybe this nice house, and getting married and nice family. Probably be doing a lot of this. Madeleine Baran: A lot of this interviewing business? Curtis Flowers: Yes. Madeleine Baran: Okay. Curtis Flowers: But yeah, just want to do better. Getting on up there in age, so I need to find out where Curtis want to be and just try to live life. So I'm looking forward to that. Madeleine Baran: Well, I wish you the best. Curtis Flowers: And I thank you. I thank you. Madeleine Baran: All right. Thank you so much for taking so much time to talk with us about a lot of really hard things. Curtis Flowers: Yeah. Madeleine Baran: Really appreciate it. Curtis Flowers: You are so welcome. Been looking forward to it. Madeleine Baran: Me too. All right. Take it easy, Curtis. Curtis Flowers: All right, you all do the same. Madeleine Baran: Okay. Thank you so much. Curtis Flowers: I look forward to seeing you all again. Madeleine Baran: Yeah, same. Curtis Flowers: Yes. Madeleine Baran: Bye. Thank you. Curtis Flowers: It worked out. Here I am. Madeleine Baran: 24 years later. Curtis Flowers: 24 years later, here I am. I don't even know if I could do this. It's been a minute. MUSIC: I've had some good days. I've had some hills to climb. I've had some weary days and some lonely nights. But when I look around and I think things over. All of my good days outweigh my bad days and I, I won't complain. I've had some good days. I've had some hills to climb. I've had some weary days and some sleepless nights. But when I look around and I think things over. All of my good days outweigh my bad days and I, I won't complain. Curtis Flowers: How was that? That was all right? It's been a minute, yes, but I try. Madeleine Baran: We have a lot more on our website inthedarkpodcast.org. That's also where you can find all kinds of information about the case, about the power of prosecutors, about how jury selection works. So if you haven't checked it out yet, please do. In The Dark is reported and produced by me, Madeleine Baran, managing producer, Samara Freemark, producer, Natalie Jablonski, associate producer, Rehman Tungekar, and reporter, Parker Yesko. Our data reporter is Will Craft. This series was edited by Catherine Winter. The editor in chief of APM Reports is Chris Worthington. This episode was mixed by Corey Schreppel. Original music for this series by Gary Meister and Johnny Vince Evans. Photography for this series by Ben Depp. Videography for this episode by Robie Flores. Transcription for this episode by Alondra Sierra. And a special thank you to Lauren Humpert. And to all of you who've listened and supported our work over so many years, thank you.