Katey Rich: Hello, and welcome to _Little Gold Men_ the award season podcast from _Vanity Fair_. 

Intro: "It's such an honor to present this next award." "And here are the nominees." "And the Oscar goes to..." "And the Oscar goes to..." "And I can't deny the fact that you like me. Right now, you like me." "I'm the king of the world!" "There's a mistake, _Moonlight_, you guys won best picture."

Katey Rich: I am Katey Rich, and I'm here through the magic of time zones, uh, with all of our regular hosts. Actually joining me here on the east coast for a rare appearance is David Canfield.

David Canfield: Hello, hello. 

Katey Rich: And then all the way across the ocean in France, I literally don't know what time it is there... Richard Lawson. 

Richard Lawson: Bonjour. I'm not saying that cause it's not, uh, not evening. I would say bonsoir if it was evening. 

Katey Rich: Ooh, look at your French. And Rebecca Ford, how's your French?

Rebecca Ford: Terrible, hello. 

Katey Rich: Um, we are catching up with you guys pretty much a full week into the Cannes Film Festival and sort of nearing the end. Even though it will be a while longer before we know the winners of the Palme d'Or, et cetera, but you guys have seen a lot, a lot of the titles that you previewed for us in last week's episode. So we're going to get a full Cannes dispatch and then David and I will regroup and talk a little bit about television because Emmy season does continue onward. But first, uh, just a temperature check, Richard and Rebecca, how has it been? Is it a good Cannes? 

Richard Lawson: I mean, I don't know if listeners really care about this, but it's been a logistic headache. 

Katey Rich: I mean we're an inside baseball podcast, so I think we need to know.

Richard Lawson: It's true. And I actually did meet a very nice Dutch man in line for something, and he was like, "Is it possible I recognize your voice from a film podcast?" 

Katey Rich: Wow, hello. 

Richard Lawson: He said he likes the, uh, the inside stuff. So anyway, it's just been, um, it's the second year that they've done a sort of digital ticketing system where you have to wake up early every morning to request tickets four days out, and that had its expected bugs the first few days. And then that kind of got ironed out, but it still, it just, it makes everything a little bit more rigid and set and you kind of can't improvise. And that's been kind of hard for my usual festival strategy, which is to listen to what people have seen and what they like and see if I can go to a second screening and, and this year, everything, I have to be a bit more forward thinking. So I think I unfortunately have missed some stuff because I didn't know to book it, uh, four days before it premiered. 

Katey Rich: Are there any examples of something that you've missed out on because of that? 

Richard Lawson: There's an Iranian film that I believe was filmed in Jordan called _Holy Spider_ that is a kind of serial killer, procedural based on a true horrible case from Iran. And I just, and I heard really good things about it, but by the time I did, it was kind of too late for me to, um, to book another screening. So I'll have to catch up maybe in Toronto or something. 

Rebecca Ford: I think it's interesting because this festival is the most difficult for me to book things. Like the interviews I've been trying to do on the ground here, like everything gets confirmed 12 hours before it's supposed to happen. But at the same time, as Richard saying, we're dealing with having to plan out our screening schedule four days in advance. So I've had to do a little bit of shuffling, and I've gotten lucky to add a couple of screenings that I didn't think I was going to get to. But yeah, logistically it's been tough, but I I'd say film-wise, I've been pleasantly surprised with almost everything I've seen, which is a nice feeling. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. Let's hear about that. What's your standout?

Richard Lawson: My standout at this point, I mean, I still have the Claire Denis to go, I have the, I mean, _Elvis_. I have Greta's film, yet those are toward the very end of the week. Kelly Reichardt's film. So I'm curious about all those, but so far, the Mia Hansen-Løve film, uh, _One Fine Morning_, which premiered early in the festival and is very small and sort of light and gentle, as her films tend to be. She had _Bergman Island_ here last year. Um, but it's just a great movie about a woman whose father is sort of fading away from degenerative illness, which we see a lot of those stories at Cannes, but this one is not as excruciating as _Amour_ or _Vortex_ or something like that. And then she's also entering into a perhaps ill-advised affair with a married man, but it's just got a very sweet, kind of summery comportment and, um, yeah, that's the thing that's lingered with me most. Lea Seydoux is great in it, and, um, yeah, so, I mean, I expected to love Mia Hansen-Løve film. 

Katey Rich: I was jut going to say, you are in the tank for Mia Hansen-Løve for a long time. 

Richard Lawson: Very much so, but her, again, her movies are small enough that I was kind of expecting something bigger and louder and more declarative to kind of bowl me over and that has not happened yet. 

Katey Rich: What about you, Rebecca? Can you name one big standout? 

Rebecca Ford: Yeah, I saw it as sort of a last minute addition to my schedule, I saw a _Decision to Leave_ the Park Chan-wook this morning at 8:30 AM and after sort of hearing people talk about it last night and I really, really loved it. I just thought it was obviously so beautifully shot, but I was just totally engrossed in the story. Um, you know, it follows a detective who is put on this case of this man who falls off a mountain, and he's very suspicious that, that man's wife had something to do with it and then starts to fall for her. And I just thought it was so well done and I just was all in. So it was, uh, my last film that I'm going to see before I leave, and, and definitely my favorite. 

Katey Rich: I didn't realize we were cashing you and just like the exact closing moment. Like all of your freshest thoughts, nothing that, that, that you're going to miss until you catch one of them at Telluride in six months or something. 

Rebecca Ford: Yeah, I'm, I'm definitely bummed to miss quite a few films. Like they- Cannes really wants you to stay till the end. They do, uh, put a lot of promising stuff on the last couple of days. So if I could, I... there's quite a few more I would have liked to see, but I feel lucky I got to see as much as I did. 

Katey Rich: David how are you coping with Cannes FOMO? Is it like- for me I just want to ask these guys about everything. Is there anything, any burning questions you've been having from watching this all from afar? 

David Canfield: I wouldn't say burning questions. It's mostly doom scrolling through gorgeous photos. FOMO at reaction tweets that are typed out instantaneously as the credits start rolling. 

Katey Rich: I feel FOMO about all the bread everybody's eating. Like so many boulangeries. 

David Canfield: Absolutely the bread.

Katey Rich: I'm very jealous. 

David Canfield: No, I mean, it seems like, yeah, the Mia Hansen-Løve is definitely the one I personally was most excited for. I've loved pretty much all of her films and it sounds like it really delivered. It seems like Paul Mescal had a nice, um, has had a nice breakout moment this season and, uh, the film... I'm forgetting the name of it, but the more indie film that he has there sounds really good. 

Katey Rich: Rebecca you know, you just interviewed him. 

Rebecca Ford: Yeah. Probably _Aftersun,_ the more pleasant watch of the two. 

David Canfield: Yeah. Yeah. It's _Aftersun._ Um, and I I'm a huge fan of his, so yeah, both he and Lea Seydoux have a couple of films there, so it's nice to see them getting a breakout moment.

Richard Lawson: Well, David, I think by breakout moment you mean the sweater tennis vest with no shirt that Paul Mescal wore to the A24 party that just too matches his mullet and mustache. 

David Canfield: Wait. Uh, multiple words there that I wasn't expecting: a mullet and mustache. 

Richard Lawson: He was sporting quite a look. I mean, it looked good, but he was, I talked to him for a little bit with a colleague and he seemed a little insecure. And so we tried to kind of reassure him. I think it was his first Cannes, and we were like, "no, no, no, it's working. It's working we promise." 

Katey Rich: If Paul Mescal is insecure, I'm worried about the rest of us. 

Richard Lawson: Well, I was thinking about it and he got famous during COVID, like at the height of like quarantine, and so, like, I don't think he's had an opportunity before this to really do like big, pressy events like Cannes. And because he had two films here, here he was kind of thrown way into the deep end. But the good news is that _Aftersun_ especially has been really rapturously received here. I have yet to see it, cause again, schedule problems, but I'm glad that Rebecca was able to see it on our behalf.

Rebecca Ford: Yeah. I re- I really enjoyed that film and I think he's just a phenomenal actor and, and we sat down for a little interview here. I talked about how dedicated he is to indie films. You know, there were big offers that came his way, but he chose these two films to be his follow-ups and he's, I don't know, self deprecating and like, doesn't seem to take himself too seriously, but is very serious about the work. And I, I really think we'll be watching him for, for quite a while now and he seems to be enjoying himself. So it was, it was nice. It's nice to see him get that attention. 

Richard Lawson: And his other film, _God's Creatures_ is, was a really interesting choice for him to kind of follow up _Normal People_ with because it is not a hero role. That's all I'll say. I don't want to spoil anything, but, uh, he plays the son of Emily Watson and it's so great to see Emily Watson like holding the camera's attention for a whole movie again. I feel like it's been a long time since she's gotten this kind of lead role. So I didn't love all of _God's Creatures,_ it's from the people who made _The Fitz_, which was a kind of Sundance breakout a few years ago, but it's definitely got great performances, Mescal included. 

Katey Rich: Yeah, Rebecca, you've been on the kind of star-studded beat for us cause you've done a lot of, uh, sit downs and like they all include a description of the beautiful location where you're talking to these famous people, which is nice work if you can get it. I'm not trying to contain my jealousy. Um, but who else seems me having a, a good Cannes of the people you've talked to? 

Rebecca Ford: George Miller's film seemed to go over pretty well for being kind of a, a riskier film. Um, most people liked it at least, if not loved it. And, you know, he took a big swing with this magical realism, big, ambitious story. So I think that went over pretty well. 

Katey Rich: Um, well, _Three Thousand Years of Longing_ is the one that I just had the hardest time kind of reading on the reactions, because I think everyone admired the swing, but it was really hard for me to tell if it's going to debut over here. People are going to be like, 'what in God's name is this?' Like, how weird should we be bracing for? 

Richard Lawson: It's not in itself weird. It's just weird that it's like a 2022 movie, because it feels like something that would have come out 20 years ago, if not more. Because it's so earnest, it's genuinely just about a genie and the person who frees him and about like the genie's past. And it's very... it's about love and time, and it's, you know, it's not, it's reminiscent of _Mad Max_ and in terms of its visuals, you know. Although it was mostly a COVID project, so a lot of it is digital and stuff. He wasn't able to amass, you know, a ton of people for any given scene. But yeah, it's context in the here and now is strange, but I think really at root it's like bedtime story for grownups in kind of a sweet and endearing way. And I think that, I worry about that film's chances once it comes stateside, because I don't want to speak for other critics here, but I went in with kind of basement level expectations. Because it sounded like it was kind of a fraught thing. It had been, he'd been working on it for a long time and then it finally came together and then COVID happened. You know, the subject matter seemed out there in some ways. And, um, so I was, those expectations were very happily surpassed and then some. I, I really enjoyed the film, but now that people have seen it, and those reviews have been filed and hopefully read, maybe people might be expecting more. And I don't know if the film will live up to that. But I hope it does because it is a sweet film and Idris Elba is incredible in it. What could seem like a kind of thankless, maybe somewhat problematic casting with him as this, you know, magical genie. He really seizes the opportunity with relish. And in fact, during the standing ovation for that film, he got very - or the intro when they walked in, he got very teary. And it was his first Cannes ever, and I think he really delivered on all of that expectation.

Katey Rich: David, what are you expecting from that? From watching from afar, from George Miller? 

David Canfield: Yeah. It was really hard to read for me too. I read quite a few less than enthusiastic reviews let's say, but to me it's, it's really exciting. And I think Richard spoke to a lot of that in his review, such a change of pace and two really exciting actors for him to work with specifically. I'm not expecting like a best picture candidate or anything like that, which doesn't even speak to quality necessarily. I'm, I'm purely expecting a very, very different movie from George Miller, a director whom I have a lot of trust and faith in. And just curious about seeing a working in this kind of form. 

Richard Lawson: I think the movie will have its many detractors because they were rolling their eyes at how earnest it is or they think other things don't come together, but I think maybe a smaller contingent, but still a vocal one is going to have real diehard fans. You know, in the way that people stumped for like _Alita: Battle Angel_ or something. 

Katey Rich: Or _Cloud Atlas_ is like, is that a comparison here? 

Richard Lawson: That's a perfect, that's a perfect comparison. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was also about love echoing through time and you know, was a big ambitious earnest kind of swing and yeah, there, those films actually do kind of almost seem in dialogue with one another in some ways. So, yeah. I mean, I think that like, no matter what happens financially for the film, I think as a filmmaker, you know, if as his work is being assessed on, its are assessed on his artistic merits, I think he will definitely have his supporters.

Katey Rich: Um, well, David, you mentioned the best picture campaign, which you, you cracked the seal and we, as our duty on this podcast get to talk about Oscar buzz. Although once again, just like last year when we were, um, David and you and I were watching people writing about _Annette's _Oscar chances from Cannes and we were like what's happening? This can't, we're not doing this. It does feel like there's been a lot of like, 'well, you know, like if it goes right.' But Richard and Rebecca you guys are there. Like, is there real quote, unquote, Oscar buzz or even reason to suggest it for anything that you've seen. 

Rebecca Ford: We all went into this looking for the _Parasite_ that _Drive My Car_, and I don't know if, if there is going to be something like that? To me, I don't, there hasn't been anything that I'm like, 'this is a best picture contender. Thank you. I will tweet that to the world' sort of situation. I really liked _Triangle of Sadness_, and there's been some conversation here about screenplay or something like that for it, because it is a really strong script. But, you know, we haven't seen Ruben sort of crack into best picture or anything like that. So that's the one film I think I've seen that I feel like maybe could be a part of that conversation, but I don't have a film that I would say we're definitely going to be talking about it for best picture in a few months. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah, Rubin Östlund is a funny name to bring up in these conversations, because, you know, _Triangle of Sadness_ I liked. Maybe not as much as I hope to. I've heard rumor that they're going to cut 20 minutes from the movie, which I think the movie could be better. That would benefit from it if they make the right cuts. But it's two and a half hours long and at a certain point we're like, 'okay, we get the joke.' Like, um, but he, I interviewed him years ago for _Force Majeure_, a movie that both Rebecca and I adore. And he, this was maybe a week before the Oscar nominations came out, and he, all everyone was saying, you're going to get a foreign language nomination. That's what it was called then. And, um, Maybe he could win because the movie, you know, had a lot of supporters, and then he didn't get the nomination in the end. And he had said to me that he really wanted it. Like he spoke very openly and plainly about that fact. And apparently he had filmed... someone filming him when the Oscar nominations were announced and he didn't get, but he turned it into a short film. 

Katey Rich: What? 

Richard Lawson: And yeah, I didn't know about this. Someone told me this like in line for something the other day. And so he has this weird little history with the Oscars and apparently he's been talking about that again at this festival. So yeah, I mean, if, even if the Academy doesn't count him out, he's not counting them out. Like he's still, he's still invested in that. And maybe Rebecca did an interview with one of the film's stars, Woody Harrelson, well, more- he's a supporting kind of almost glorified cameo, but I dunno, maybe Rebecca's interview with him where he said some wild things about masks and other COVID protocols that might scotch his campaign. If there ever was going to be one. 

Katey Rich: Yeah Rebecca, how 

Richard Lawson: was that? 

Rebecca Ford: Uh, surprising. I mean, I just sort of asked a very basic question of like, cause it was his first project to shoot, Woody's first project back on set once COVID took over, and it was supposed to shoot in like March 2020, and it got pushed to June. And I just was like, "So what was that like?" And then, you know, the interviews online now. Feel free to read it, but, uh, he basically doesn't believe in germ theory and thinks masks are ridiculous and told me that he hasn't been sick in seven years because he's, uh, you know, eats clean. He's a vegan and he lives in Maui. So I didn't know that anyone was going in that direction, but, um, that's where it went. So, yeah. I, I feel like if he wanted to do a campaign, they'd have to get that a little bit under control in his messaging, but... 

Katey Rich: He's, he doesn't seem ashamed of it. So I, I don't know how that controlling approve would work. 

Rebecca Ford: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, his part in the movie is, is short. He actually told me they had thought about having his character gone to the, the end of the film, but it's a brief appearance. But the leads of that film are very good. I think Harris Dickinson is a really strong actor and we'll see much more of him if there's a campaign and he can talk for it. I think that'd be interesting. 

Richard Lawson: There's also an actress in _Triangle of Sadness_ named Dolly De Leon who is Filipina and she works a lot in Filipino TV, but not in huge roles from, I mean, I was just kind of pers really looking at her IMDB because I don't know if I'd seen her in anything before and she emerges kind of in the third act of the film and just walks off with it. I mean, she's so good. And, you know, I think Guy Lodge who the _Variety_ Critic was saying maybe she could get best actress here. I mean, that might be a long shot, but like if the movie gets the right US distributor and they decide to really give it a campaign, she would be one to look out for it because she makes such an impression in the movie. And she really does arrive out of nowhere and you're like, whoa. Now the movie is about her? And I thought that was really exciting to watch and she and Harris Dickinson have very great, funny chemistry. 

Rebecca Ford: Yeah. I think what we can say for this movie is like, it's really fun to talk about. I've been talking to a lot of people about it on the ground here who've seen it and, and I've really enjoyed that part of the experience. So I am excited for more people to see it because it's definitely something that's fun to sort of debate and laugh about and talk about the performances. So even if it doesn't make the full run to Oscar, I hope it's at least something we can all continue to talk about. 

David Canfield: In terms of the other movies that might have found some wards buzz premiering there, I thought it was interesting that the Mia Hansen-Løve got picked up by Sony Classics. Sort of specialty, super campaigner, who is not to be underestimated for best actress campaigns. I feel like Lea Seydoux, you know, she did a cover for this Cannes cycle. She's done a lot of interviews. She's fairly well known and it sounds like her performances kind of quote unquote, that good that I could see it getting some kind of run, especially on the critic side. Um, so that's possibly one to look out for. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah, I think that would be more critics groups kind of thing. Cause it's, you know, it's a very naturalistic muted kind of performances for sure. I reviewed that movie in tandem with a Vicky Krieps movie called _Corsage_ from Marie Kreutzer who's a director whose last film, _The Ground Beneath Her Feet,_ I really liked, um, a few years ago. And Vicky Krieps has two movies here. The other is a sort of three-hanky weepy about a dying woman and her co-stars Gaspard Ulliel, who of course died himself tragically a few months ago. But anyway, Vicky Krieps in _Corsage_, she plays Elisabeth of Austria. Um, it's a very Marie Antoinette kind of vibe, you know, like corseted and kind of wasting away in this castle. There's an acronystic music in it and Krieps just charges through this thing. She's so good. And that's a more like vibrant performance than Lea Seydoux's, which is more mellow. So I don't know maybe Krieps is someone to keep in mind as well as Lea Seydoux. 

Katey Rich: She does feel like someone who's Oscar moment is just like coming. Like she's not gonna stay on the sidelines for too much longer.

David Canfield: I think, I think that goes for both of them to an extent. Also just seeing that _Aftersun_, the Paul Mescal movie was picked up by A24.

Katey Rich: Oh, cool. 

David Canfield: Breaking news. 

Rebecca Ford: Oh that's interesting. They have both of his films then because _God's Creatures_ are also with the A24. 

Richard Lawson: Well, I was talking with someone from A24 at the party. They actually just bought Paul Mescal, so he's going to be part of the company now. 

Katey Rich: It's important to get it on the ground floor. 

David Canfield: I think they just bought the mullet, Richard, I don't think... 

Richard Lawson: Oh right, yeah. But as long as the mullets attached to him. 

Katey Rich: Um, I wanted to ask about _Armageddon Time,_ which is just a huge personal interest me cause I, I don't think James Gray has ever made a movie I didn't like. Um, and he is eternally ignored by the Oscars. It's unclear if that's going to change with _Armageddon Time_, but it does, you know, this is a starry movie. Not starrier than Brad Pitt in _Ad Astra_, but it seems fascinating and divisive and like something people maybe will be eager to yell about when it comes state side, which, um, you know, for getting attention for a small movie might not be the worst thing.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. Yeah. That's an interesting one. That was really interesting to write about after I saw it, because it is a very much an ideas movie. And I think my review ultimately was actually kind of wishy-washy cause it's like, I don't know if I'm the right perspective to write about this. I mean, it's a bit of semi memoir piece about, um, a kid in early eighties, Queens and his friendship with a black classmate and things turned to tragedy as the movie unfolds. And it's really James Gray kind of processing a lot of guilt and maybe trying to do some atonement without, I think, courting forgiveness. I don't think he's being like, 'give me a pat on the back for being like aware of my privilege or whatever.' I think it, it does, it stops before it gets to the point where we're supposed to embrace him for his bravery. You know, which I think is crucial. Other people did not see it that way. They, they did think it was self-serving and whatnot. And as ever, there is a real dearth of black critics here and I would be, so I'm very curious to hear what people think about the racial politics in the film once more people's stateside get to see it, but I think it's really interesting. Is it Oscar-y? Mm, maybe Anthony Hopkins who plays the kindly grandfather to the lead kid? Maybe the screenplay, because it is very dense with ideas and, and whatnot, but it's going to be a tough sell. I will say I'm really glad to see... so this is a Focus Feature's movie and they had _Stillwater_ here last year, a movie that was kind of maligned, but I thought it was also great because it was tangling with sort of American identity and American guilt and complicity and terrible things. And to see, you know, the big Universal logo play before a Cannes movie, and then you sit down for this, these long naughty kind of morally complex films. Like I wish more American studios were doing that, you know, it's exciting to see. 

Katey Rich: And this is a tangent, but the Universal logo played before _The Bros_ trailers came up this week. The Billy Eichner movie coming out last year, which is a Red Band and like far more explicit than I was expecting in a trailer. So, uh, the Universal logo really doing a lot of work this week. That's all. 

Rebecca Ford: I do think it's not a great sign that I was like making my little list of the films I saw this week and I forgot to put _Armageddon Time _on it because well, also the days have very long here. So that was like, what, the second or third day, Richard, that we saw that movie? But I found myself a little disappointed with it. I just didn't think it was, I mean, I know it's true to his life, but I felt like it just wasn't heightened enough? And I know that's not what he was going for, but the characters, there's no arc to any of them. Not nobody seems to change. It just, and maybe what you're saying, Richard, that he's actually still working through... he's still in the character arc in his own life about how you grow from that sort of experience. But it, it didn't quite work for me. I, I definitely think Hopkins is really great and they could give that a go campaign wise, but I'm not sure that's going to make a full run. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, _Roma_ in some ways, I don't think that maybe Koran saw that as _Atonement_, but it was him trying to understand the life of his childhood made a nanny. You know, and, and this is similarly an adult man with the context of the present day looking back at mistakes made and the ways that his family slighted other people who were of a different race or class, certainly. The big difference there is that _Roma_ is also this incredible riot of visual marvel. I mean, in this movie, true to dreams, James Gray is, I mean, it's very handsomely mounted, but it's not, it's not showy. And it's quiet and it ends on a note of sort of disquiet and confusion that, um, yeah, I think you're right Rebecca, that it definitely feels like it drifts off to an ending instead of saying something declarative at the end.

Katey Rich: Um, that was kind of like _The Immigrant_ movie that critics loved and no awards paid attention to. So here we go again. Um, what else? _Top Gun_ made a splash. Everyone saw those planes flying overhead. I mean, it's not really our like awards, uh, bailiwick, but it does seem like at that went exactly as planned. 

Richard Lawson: It was funny they had beach fireworks that evening that it premiered here, and we were all at the A24, they had a lovely beach party with a lot of, you know, American journalists and stuff. And so it was kind of like a little reunion sort of situation. And then the fireworks started going off and I heard more than, you know, a few people point to the fireworks and say, "Oh Tom Cruise." Because the fireworks were as much for him as they were for _Top Gun_.

Katey Rich: He was physically exploding all of them hovering in the sky.

Richard Lawson: Although Rebecca, you went to the sort of- he did this hour long rendezvous with Tom Cruise onstage chat thing and that was less than fireworks. Is that correct? 

Rebecca Ford: Yeah, it was Tom Cruise day that day and he did this chat and a lot of the press was there and it was in the big theater, which not all those sort of moderated talks are. And, um, unfortunately he was very on message. He just kind of... what we know about him. You know, he cares about the movie going experience and he does, you know, his own stunts and he, it, it, it, it just was a little disappointing. Um, I don't know, maybe he's just been on message for so long that he's forgotten how to tell a story, or that feels more personal. And there was a really nice, like montage of all his work that, again, played at the premiere. Weirdly did not have Nicole Kidman in it, which was pointed out by some people. 

Katey Rich: It takes some work to cut Nicole Kidman out of that montage. 

Rebecca Ford: To cut her out of everything. Yes. He got a surprise, uh, Palme at, at the premiere that night, which is a very, very rare thing to happen here. It's kind of like a lifetime achievement award and the whole experience was really all about Tom Cruise. That's that Gaga song is so fabulous in that film, so I'm excited for her to make an Oscar run for that. But I think that's probably all we'll be talking about for that one. 

Katey Rich: But you also have that great interview with Glen Powell, um, who I know you've interviewed a lot and then completely separately we did this preview of his, um, movie _Devotion_ that he's got coming out later this year with Jonathan Majors. So even if like the Cannes experience wasn't about anyone but Tom Cruise, it does seem like Glen Powell, if you, even if you've been rooting for him, that he's poised for a moment. 

Rebecca Ford: It does feel like he is definitely having a moment and I am curious to see, when _Devotion_ comes out in the fall, if, if that's able to be a part of the con- so there's at least one fighter jet movie Oscar conversation this season. Um, but yeah, he, he, you know, he bought that book and, and produced it before he got his _Top Gun_ role. That could be interesting that we could be seeing him in the fall.

Richard Lawson: Well, and it hasn't premiered yet, but I'm hearing that the Kelly Reichardt, there are a lot of fighter jets in that. So that should be interesting, 

Katey Rich: I guess, before we let you guys back off to your French activities, any like predictions for either what's left to come or like what award winners we might be talking about next week? 

Richard Lawson: The awards are always hard because it's a different jury every year. Obviously there's stuff that seems to more resoundingly have played well, versus not. There are a lot of filmmakers here who have already won either a Palme d'Or or another major prize at Cannes, so the question is, are they going to repeat, like, could Cristian Mungiu, that Romanian director, win again for R.M.N is very ... you know, typically bleak look at contemporary Romania. I don't know, there's a movie here called _Tchaikovsky's Wife_, which is a big Russian epic about, um, that closeted gay composers a much beleaguered wife, hence the title. And apparently the actress in that, I haven't seen it is quite good. Sort of a Russian Cate Blanchett. But the question is, will they give a Russian actress, even though she has nothing to do with her country's politics necessarily, a big acting prize here? I don't know. So that'll be interesting to see, but I think my hunch would be that they're going to give the major prize to something that even after Rebecca and I have seen stuff, isn't really on our radar, because I think a lot of the bigger splashier more anticipated titles have played well, but not like been home runs exactly. So maybe there's something lurking that will just happen to catch the fancy of this particular jury. 

Rebecca Ford: Yeah, I'm excited for you to go to _Elvis,_ Richard, I'm unfortunately missing it. I it's not for Cannes Awards, but you know, everyone I think is curious to see if Austin Butler makes a go for it, so.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, that's been the word on the ground from everyone, is that at the very least he's incredible in it. And so I will be very eager to see that and attend some kind of fancy party where we'll see some more fireworks and we'll point and say, "oh Tom Hanks."

Katey Rich: We want to pivot away from Cannes and all these promising, uh, international films coming our way eventually. Back to Emmy season, we are nearing the end of May. So all almost all of the shows that will be in the running this year are, um, are premiering. They're still way too much television to watch. Um, but David, you had the idea to check in on comedy specifically, which I think is in some, sometimes flys more under the radar than drama because often like the really heavy duty, like big deal, serious dramas that get attention. But the comedy race is really interesting this year. Um, Rebecca has written about _Abbott Elementary_ and kind of the surprising resilience of the network comedy, but then you've got far more like untraditional stuff like, uh, _Barry_ and _Atlanta_ back in there. Um, do you feel like we should be paying more attention to the comedy race? 

David Canfield: Yeah, I think that one of the more interesting broad shifts with the Emmy's has been in the comedy races. I wrote about this a lot last year, was this shift toward nice that we've seen with _Ted Lasso_ and before that _Schitt's Creek_, and maybe those two aren't the best examples, but I know our colleague friend, Tara Ariano wrote a great piece about excellent half-hour shows that don't necessarily make you laugh too much, but make you feel good. Or at least that was a big part of that piece. And, um, that is one ongoing trend with Emmy comedies is shows that are fundamentally feel good, or sometimes feel bad, there's also the sad-com genre as well that finds love here. Um, that don't necessarily hit the funny bone as much, but still really find that awards momentum in a category that used to honor really broad, laughed traps- laugh track sitcoms.

Katey Rich: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I feel like _Barry_ is the huge example of the other element of this. That not makes you make you feel good, makes you feel like really bad. I do think I, I tend to laugh like once an episode in _Barry._ Like sometimes you just astonishment that that's what they're doing, but I also think _Barry_ is like, maybe the best show on TV? And I don't mind it kind of taking over the comedy category as a result. You can tell me if you feel otherwise. 

David Canfield: No, I, I mean, _Barry's_ probably my personal favorite in the category too. But you wonder if some of the momentum, some of the feelings around what this category should honor have moved away from something like _Barry_. At least as a winner. I mean, Bill Hader's pretty undeniable for best actor, and I do hope that he, even though he's won before, now that he's up against Jason Sudeikis I still hope he pulls it off because he's pretty extraordinary in that part. But yeah, it's, it's interesting. I think this year shows like _Abbott Elementary_ are almost more likely to have that big Emmy breakout because they fit neatly into what voters have gravitated towards of late. And it's not to say they don't make you laugh at all right. I just think of something like Tina Fey's stable of _30 Rock_ and now her what she executive produces _Girls5eva_, which is like punchline a minute. I laugh harder at that show than I do at most shows. Um, but it just doesn't feel like they, that matters as much when it comes to cracking this category. And obviously that show faces other challenges being, being on Peacock, I suppose. The other challenge singular. Big challenges because it is so critically adored, but it does, it does feel like it doesn't necessarily hit that sweet spot like _Ted Lasso_ did when it was on a streamer that not a lot of people had. And suddenly became this word of mouth phenomenon. It seems like that's the path right now for comedies and I'm wondering if this year is going to keep that trend up with something like _Abbott Elementary_. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. I mean, you think about like _Ted Lasso,_ and was it the year before _Ted Lasso_ that it was Fleabag? Like the pendulum keeps swinging back and forth. It's hard to know what... I guess _Schitt's Creek_ was a year before, so that's two nices in a row and then _Fleabag_. It's hard to identify a longterm trend. Maybe that, maybe there never will be a long-term trend. 

David Canfield: Maybe not. And _Only Murders_ is another one. You know, this kind of delightful, cozy mystery nestled inside of a, a buddy comedy. It's another one that, that feels like it, of that vein that you could see really taking off because it, it kind of leaves you with the nice fuzzies. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. I would say they show does make me laugh though. And I, I think I'm really a sucker for Martin Short and Steve Martin and like, they make me laugh a lot. So that feels like it strikes a nice balance there where it's not just like, 'oh, everyone's being kind to each other.' Like there's like silly well-executed comedy in every episode of that show. 

David Canfield: Yeah, agreed. I mean, I think with any of those shows I wouldn't be upset if they completely ran with, ran away with it, because know, it's also a matter of taste. I know people who laugh hysterically at _Abbott Elementary,_ every episode that is not my experience with it, even though I really loved the show. Um, so it's, yeah, it's also just a matter of what's landing for who. 

Katey Rich: Well, also the question is, is anyone gonna run away with it? Like we're, we're so fresh off of like the _Schitt's Creek_ sweep, the _Ted Lasso_ sweep, and to some extent the _Fleabag_ sweep, it feels like a much more divided field now. 

David Canfield: Which I hope voters follow through with. I, you know, sweeps have gotten really tiresome the last few years with the television academy. And I think you can be a fan of _Ted Lasso_ or _Schitt's Creek_ and wonder whether another show can win more than one award or in _Schitt's Creek_ case it literally won every single award. You know, Ted Lasso did ultimately lose writing and directing in something of an upset to _Hacks_, so I think it's a bit more vulnerable here than people think. And you have a lot of really strong new contenders coming in to say nothing of once multi winners, like _Atlanta _coming back or _Barry_. Um, so it's a really dynamic field and I, I hope the- to say nothing of the nominations, which I'm sure will reflect that, uh, that the winners list will actually reflect that and not just find the favorite show, whatever it may be getting checked out the line. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. I wanted to ask you about _Atlanta_ because it's been a really interesting case in] its new season, like it's a really different season. It's been gone for a long time, much like _Barry_ and some of the other stuff that has been back. I mean, I've not caught up on the new season, so I'm not a great gauge of it. It doesn't seem like it's occupying kind of the same place that it was where like, for, I think, I guess I've only seen season two, like every episode the next day people would be like, can you believe that they did that? What do you think _Atlanta's_ fate is going to be this time around?

David Canfield: I think it's a huge question mark. I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't even crack the topic for comedy series to be honest with you because it's been a fascinating season. I wouldn't say it's been an entirely successful one. I think that's the general consensus. It's not an especially funny season. Um, and I think about half of it, if you can include the finale, which focuses on Zazie Beetz's van, our anthology episodes do not include the rest of the cast. The main cast, um, take the action predominantly back to the US even though the seasons main scenes with Donald Glover, Brian Tyree Henry, and LaKeith Stanfield were filmed in Europe. It's a case where it came back after so long and it came back, entered a very drastically different television landscape. I mean, I don't even know if AppleTV Plus existed when... last year. 

Katey Rich: Probably not. 

David Canfield: Yeah. I mean, I'll have to fact check that, but I think the point is if it did, it was not an Emmy player in any way shape or form. And I honestly don't think it did exist. So it's facing all this new competition. It does stream on Hulu, but it also felt like part of that FX golden age that has inevitably faded even as they still continue to produce great content. It seems like not a primary network for Emmy voters, at least, anymore. Um, and yeah, I think in this show's case, the laugh factor is a big question because I think Brian Tyree Henry revelatory, hilarious, dramatically brilliant on this show. I think it's sad that at this point, given where the buzz is for the show, he'll probably never win an Emmy for it. But I think he carries that mantle often very singularly along with LaKeith Stanfield. Beyond them it's, it's not a show designed to make you laugh always as much as, as it is to make you think. And I think it's been a really provocative season, but yeah, I'm not sure how it's going to translate in a really competitive field. 

Katey Rich: Yes, you're making me think about the last season of _Master of None_, which is a pretty different show, but I think Aziz Ansari and Donald Glover as like comedians who broke out on sit-coms and it kind of became these auteurs of their own shows- 

David Canfield: I think it's a great example.

Katey Rich: Yeah. They've had like set- relatively similar paths. And with _Master of None_, like he just, Aziz Ansari just completely transformed the season. Like he's barely, even in it, it's a completely different format. It's like a more like an art film than anything else. And the Emmys were just like, nope. Not, not any- I wouldn't say that like the cultural attention was really there either. And I think _Atlanta _does have more attention on it than that. But if an auteur like these, like Donald Glover, Aziz Ansari wants to take a big swing and someone wants to fund it, and like, if it doesn't pan out, like I think that's okay. I think it's okay for them to take those big swings and try it. Like in the era of the Netflix algorithm and them trying to recreate _New Girl,_ risks on TV feel like they're threatened and I feel grateful that they still exist at all. 

David Canfield: A hundred percent and you know, Donald Glover has very rightly earned multiple Emmys for this show. I think it should have won best comedy series one of those first two seasons. And I think it came really close. Um, but yeah, I think _Master of None_ is a great example of possible Emmy fate of this show this season, and last year was a really comparatively barren field for comedy. You know, you had almost no returning nominees. Netflix's top contenders were along with _The Kominsky Method_, which was returning, the only returning nominee. You had _Cobra Kai,_ which did somehow make it through.

Katey Rich: It was a real Cinderella story. 

David Canfield: Yeah and you had _Master of None, _which they were, I spoken to sources close to Netflix and they really believed _Master of None_ was going to make it through. 

Katey Rich: Yeah, oh yeah it was getting a hard push.

David Canfield: Um, because that show was so beloved by Emmy voters and Aziz had won like Donald Glover in the past. Not for, not for acting, but for writing. And yeah, I wonder the same thing about _Atlanta _is. You know, it got the Emmy friendly release. It's certainly ambitious and interesting, but I don't know if it would pass the comedy series 2022 test for this for most voters. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. I mean, and this is the question is like, after this period where the Emmy is like really opened up to different, interesting stuff. Like I think _Fleabag_ being a real, like ultimate example of that, where like, oh, it's going to be also a random beat that just runs the table. Like does the reversion to feel good comedy, mark a reversion in the ambition of the Emmy's themselves? 

David Canfield: And if I could open it up a little bit, one of the broader questions with this category is... so you have the likes of _Hacks_ and _Ted Lasso_ coming back for season two and _Only Murders_ and _Abbott Elementary_ are freshmen. But along with _Atlanta_ you have shows, uh, that had been around for quite a bit. _Marvelous Mrs. Maisel's_ a former category winner that was also off the air for quite a long time that it feels to me like also returned with a little bit less buzz. It regained it in the end. Um, I think with a, with a strong well-received finale and centering Luke Kirby, which is all we all want. 

Katey Rich: Listen, former _Little Gold Men_ guest, Luke Kirby, who then went on to win his Emmy, so I'm, I'm taking credit for that bomb. 

David Canfield: We knew him when. But yeah, I think that how the balance between these vets coming back in a very different world versus these newbies who are really where all the excitement and energy is, how voters split the difference between the two will be interesting because this is a group who's known for, you know, lazy name checking, nominating the same stuff over and over. Um, but that reputation is a little out of date and this is a really, this category is an interesting test of that. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. I think if we, as long as there's not a massive, like if we get a _Ted Lasso_ sweep again, I think that would be a real despairing moment given all of the competition and like the worthy stuff out there. But I think, I think they have the potential to, to spread the wealth and make some interesting choices here.

Well, let's pivot to one more Emmys category before we wrap up, because we had a question from Amy who is a frequent sub text texter, you can also text us too. We'll tell you at the end of the show, but she said, "I'm seeing lots of articles and reviews praising Mandy Moore on _This Is Us_, is it possible we're going to get a serious push for a nomination or maybe even a win for her?" And the timing of this could not be better, David, because once you listen to this, you'll be able to read david's a huge profile on Mandy Moore, basically asking this exact question. Um, and as someone who has not really kept up with _This Is Us_, your piece really persuaded me of the caliber of the work that she's doing on the show. And it seems like the, her collaborators on the show really believe in her too. 

David Canfield: They really do. And that's a big theme with this show is a cast that greatly supports each other. And at the, at the beginning of this_ This Is Us's_ run, it was definitely the Sterling K. Brown show. He won the best actor Emmy for that first season. The ensemble was totally behind him. This is an incredibly tightly knit cast. You talked to anyone off the record, on the record, on background, they will tell you the same thing. Uh, they really love each other. And right now it feels like all efforts are behind Mandy Moore. Sterling K. Brown is literally launched an Emmy campaign for her on his Instagram. I spoke to Milo Ventimiglia for the profile who spoke, not just glowingly of her, but really admiringly and really with a lot of pride. Uh, they were kind of the anchor of the show at the beginning before any of them knew what it would become. Both in terms of popularity, in terms of the tasks that particularly Mandy Moore was given, uh, over the course of the show. I think he, they, he ended it just kind of in awe of her and that was a word that came up in a couple of conversations about her performance. 

Katey Rich: Yeah, had Sterling K. Brown won the Emmy for _People vs. OJ_ when the show started? I'm trying to remember if he was a- 

David Canfield: He won it just before. 

Katey Rich: Okay. So it was like, so when they were hired, Milo Ventimiglia and Mandy Moore were like the names who were going to anchor the series.

David Canfield: Yes, exactly. 

Katey Rich: Um, yeah, I mean the, the task before everyone on the show, I guess, like there's so much time hopping and there's so much character work to do, but you realize that like a tear-jerker like this, it's not just that you like write sad things happening to people. And then like, therefore the audiences will flock to it. Like you've got to sell it and it's not selling old age makeup in to, to that extent and for that long is really, really hard. Like what either from her co- colleagues or just from watching it, what do you talk up her success with that to? 

David Canfield: So this is, this has been my journey because I think a lot of people don't know. Um, it's confounded people really. I mean, partly because Mandy Moore was a teen idol who broke out in commercially successful movies that weren't exactly critical darlings or indies that showcased every facet of a performers talent. And she came onto this show in a role that felt very familiar. Uh, she's got this sense of magic to her. It's very much about her smile and her appeal and there's a lot you don't know about her character. But I think over time, as I thought about it more, I thought about her performances in the past that really stuck out to me. Um, and those were her, that was her work in the comedies, _Princess Diaries_ and especially _Saved!_ 

Katey Rich: _Saved!_ That's a, that's it that's true old millennial classic. 

David Canfield: Personal favorite of mine because those movies were, you know, early 2000s, right when she was trying to break out as an actor, and her reputation at that time, her persona was very girl next door. Very, just very appealing. And so you get to these roles where in both of them she plays terrible, awful bullies, and she's incredibly believable in those parts and she's fully committed and there's a lot of humor and nuance, uh, that you might not have expected from Mandy Moore at the time. And there's a, a real intuition that I picked up on it. And I've, I kept thinking about those performances. I was working on this story, and then the other thing I'll say is my particular investment in narrative came about very organically because I used to recap _This Is Us_ for _Entertainment Weekly. _

Katey Rich: Oh wow. 

David Canfield: So for better or worse- 

Katey Rich: Recaps really build Stockholm syndrome, like you become a fan. 

David Canfield: Absolutely do for better or worse I was incredibly invested in every storyline in this show and every theory. And I remember, I vividly remember writing about the show, end of season two beginning of season three, and I would just keep highlighting her. And you know, when you're doing these recaps, you go a little bit on autopilot sometimes and just, you know, getting everything on paper, trying to index some analysis and criticism. But her performance stuck out more and more as she was given really thorny, difficult material. And I, in a manner, I would say that the rest of her cast was not. You know, she gets, uh, in her, I would say slightly older timeline., She's playing, she plays her character in her mid sixties, and older than that, but in the sixties version of Rebecca, she, her relationship with her daughter, Kate gets really messy and interesting. And it's just fascinating to watch her kind of live in the ambiguity of that. Um, and I thought that was really powerful work that forecast what we've seen in these past few seasons, especially. 

Katey Rich: Well, you also just kind of handicapped her competition. You were writing about Laura Linney in _Ozark,_ who I think is a strong competitor in there as is Zendaya, so what's her path to really making a run for it in the drama actress category?

David Canfield: First, she has to get a nomination, which she has, she has not been nominated since 2019. Co-stars like Sterling K. Brown and Chris Sullivan have been nominated more recently. So she has been a bit underrated, uh, among her ensemble on the show. Milo Ventimiglia has also been nominated more than her. Um, and in addition to Laura Linney, you have Zendaya who feels like a lock, who won this category in her last year of eligibility. Jennifer Anniston, Melanie Lynskey is coming in for _Yellow Jackets_, and I think that show will carry her to her first nomination. And if _Killing Eve_, you've got former nominees, Jodie Comer and Sandra Oh. You know, there's a lot of tough competition and there aren't a ton of spaces in this category, at least typically.

Katey Rich: Yeah.

David Canfield: So her first task is to break through. Um, and I think she's right on the bubble there. It does feel like this wave that's coming for her is really perfectly timed. 

Katey Rich: Well yeah, the finale's airing this week, right? 

David Canfield: Yep. The finale will have aired when this is, this is live. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. 

David Canfield: As will the profile. So vanityfair.com, guys. Um, but beyond that, I think she would be in it for the win. If she would've, you know, this was kind of the Zendaya test._ Euphoria _was not an Emmy contender for its first season and her nomination was something of a question mark, and she was able to break through. And I think because of how good and, and just how visibly like intense and impressive, uh, what she's done in the show is, I think she'll be right in there and it's because it's a popular vote system. You know, you check off one name.

Katey Rich: Yeah.

David Canfield: I think there's going to be a lot of splitting between Laura Linney and Zendaya alone, so I do think there's a path there if she, she were to crack the category.

Katey Rich: I love a vote splitting theory. It's just always ramps up the excitement. 

David Canfield: It's, it's always my favorite. 

Katey Rich: And like, I feel like we imagine it far off and then it really happens. But you never know.

David Canfield: I will definitely say that is how _Hacks_ won. I forget if it was directing or writing, but _Ted Lasso_ had submitted like four episodes and like all of them got nominated and yeah, in the end that did not help it, so it does depend.

Katey Rich: Yeah. You know, there are awards strategists looking at that being like, okay, that's why we're not doing that this year. We're picking one and running with it. 

David Canfield: Sorry, writers. You can't all be nominated because then none of you will win. 

Katey Rich: That does it for this week's show, we'll be back next week. Richard and Rebecca will back from Cannes, if all travel goes well and we'll have the whole summer ahead of us. We'll also be doing something of a pride month themed set of episodes. We're going to be doing some Oscar flashbacks. We're going to be talking about some topics, just about queer representation in Hollywood and movies. We've got _Fire Island_ coming out next week. So a lot to look forward to there. In the meantime, you can find us at vanityfair.com including so much of Richard and Rebecca's great Cannes coverage and David's profile Mandy Moore, which you should read all about. You can find us on Twitter @littlegoldmen and on our own. I am @kateyrich and David? 

David Canfield: @davidcanfield97. 

Katey Rich: And Richard and Rebecca have run off to a boulangerie, but, uh, you can find them on Twitter. You probably know where to find them. You can text us at join subtexts.com/littlegoldmen or text 213-513-7035. Our producer and editor is Brett Fuchs and this week's award for the best description of our summer wardrobe goes to Richard Lawson. 

Richard Lawson: Sweater tennis vest with no shirt.