Katey Rich: Hello, and welcome to _Little Gold Men_ the award season podcast from _Vanity Fair_. 

Intro: "It's such an honor to present this next award." "And here are the nominees." "And the Oscar goes to..." "And the Oscar goes to..." "And I can't deny the fact that you like me. Right now, you like me." "I'm the king of the world!" "There's a mistake, _Moonlight_, you guys won best picture."

Katey Rich: I am Katey rich. And I'm here for this interview episode with David Canfield. Hello, David.

David Canfield: Hello. 

Katey Rich: Uh, you and I got to do this week's interviews. Um, and first we'll hear you in conversation with Danielle Deadwyler who had a really strong breakout role on a show full of strong breakout roles, I will say, uh, on _Station Eleven,_ so what'd you guys talk about. 

David Canfield: Um, well, Danielle and I have a bit have a bit of history. Uh, before for this job, in my previous life, I was an _Entertainment Weekly_ Reporter, and I think the last thing I did before COVID 19 hit was visited the set of _Station Eleven._ 

Katey Rich: That is bananas. 

David Canfield: And interviewed Danielle Deadwyler because it was her, it's her big episode. That's what they were shooting, uh, at the Sinatra House in Chatsworth, California. And then the world shut down and of course the parallels between the show in real life were sort of unbearably intense. So there was a bit of catch-up for starters. Um, and I do think that out of that I had a unique insight into to where she was at that point. And I was particularly fascinated by the parallel between her coming back to film after taking a really long break and coming back to film a much more devastating pandemic story than what we experienced. And, um, her characters arc, um, because she plays Miranda in the show whose graphic novel sort of guides a lot of the characters through, um, tragedy and hope. And, uh, it's, it's this beautiful metaphor for the power of art. And, um, she's in a way and a lot of ways, a light through the pandemic for the characters that we follow. And she really taps into that in her performance. And we talked a lot about the intimacy of that kind of character connection and, and how she really brought that forward in her performance, which I am, uh, really taken with. As you know, Katey, I, I pitched her for this because I really think she's an extraordinary talent who I'm excited to see more of. 

Katey Rich: So David let's hear your conversation with Danielle Deadwyler. Uh, but first let's hear a word from our sponsor.

David Canfield: Here with Danielle Deadwyler, star of _Station Eleven_. Uh, one of my favorite shows of this past season and one of my favorite parts of my favorite shows of this past season. Hi, Danielle. 

Danielle Deadwyler: Hello. 

David Canfield: Before we started, we were just talking about the fact that, uh, we met years ago on the set of _Station Eleven_ in late February 2020 in Los Angeles.

Danielle Deadwyler: Isn't crazy that we can say we met years ago. 

David Canfield: Yeah, we met in the before times. 

Danielle Deadwyler: BP.

David Canfield: I, I've been thinking about it because you were filming, um, Miranda, your characters big episode in the show, and, uh, it's a big moment in the story. I remember back then you told me this vibe on set was very sweet and very serene. More serene than it had been. And then you had added there was a little, there is a little hint of rumble happening, which turned out to be pretty prophetic, I think. 

Danielle Deadwyler: Um, no profit. I just listened to _NPR_. 

David Canfield: That served, that served those who listened to NPR well. 

Danielle Deadwyler: _NPR, Democracy Now_. The, the articles that are on the margins and you go, 'oh, okay. This prominent doctor died. Oh, okay. This is happening. Oh.' So I was there in Chicago when the first people were coming over and quarantining them. So I was very, very aware, hyper-aware and other people on the set, not so much. We're making a show, right? 

David Canfield: Yeah. We sat six feet apart. I don't think we shook hands. So it goes. Um, but more seriously, Miranda is a survivalist. She's an artist. You're playing this incredibly rich and it turned out very timely material just as the world was starting to shut down. Looking back on it, what do you remember about being in that space filming before the set was postponed? 

Danielle Deadwyler: You know, I remember being a hermit the whole time anyway. Um, it was like I was being prepared for the rest of the year and 2021 and some of 2022. like I was, I was, I was in training. I remember the way it felt making the show. Not knowing sometimes what things were and things changing and, and that being the pandemic experience truly. I remember glimmers of, of, of, of, of joy being in Chicago and glimmers of being like, 'wow, weird this is not your house.' Like beyond it being Sinatra, it was more like this glorious nature based space where I could just like group architecture, and then this glorious greenery. The thing, the two things that were like these contrary things are, are, are next to each other. And then that became life. Still kind of life. It's always kind of life, right? Like- 

David Canfield: Yeah. 

Danielle Deadwyler: These come complexities butting heads and how do you make sense of them? Not so much, but try to move with some grace. And I think that's where Miranda was. She had, had a lot of chaos, a lot of difficulty in coming to grips with what she needed and who she was and couldn't do that bumping heads with Arthur, her husband. And so solitude is the manner in which one goes to reclaim the self. And, and then you come out on the other end trying to make amends, trying to something. And it's like, shit is, it's too, it's it's too late or it's right on time because you weren't supposed to. You know, if those kind of it's, it's beautiful and terrible to have that be the experience. I gather a lot of people are having beautiful, terrible experience continuously, right. Because people are still in it and people can't go out in the world and, and be outside, right. As folks like to say, I'm outside. No, everybody's not outside yet. Everybody can't be outside. And, um, Miranda learned to consider people in considering herself, and I don't know if we've, if America, at least has, has considered themselves in the way that they should so that they can consider others, but we should always still be considering others because our community is deeply, deeply interdependent, interconnected, interwoven. And we gotta, we have to, we have to keep looking at this weaving in order to come out with some real love. 

David Canfield: Mm, yeah, absolutely. I remember you described Miranda to me as a, a guide or a kind of signpost for people in the post pandemic world, which again was pre COVID. Um, but you know, COVID aside even there's a lot of weight to that. How did you initially find your way into her? I'm curious? 

Danielle Deadwyler: Blind!

David Canfield: Blind, blind. 

Danielle Deadwyler: I'm blind, David, I'm blind. This is a rapid I lose. It's like, my mind is blank, but it's that, you know what I mean? It's waving the hand in the face and occasionally having some sense of clarity, but like, it really was, it's intuition. I think that's what that, what that was intuitively like. Yeah. You set some shit on fire and you have to go through the ashes and like start a new. That's what weaving, uh, Miranda was with Patrick and Hiro, right? Like we were all just like skating. And yet I had a certain understanding, a poetic understanding, an artistic understanding. Patrick had a certain understanding. Hiro had a visual understanding and you weave, and then pops out. 

David Canfield: Yeah. Did you read the book before or after? 

Danielle Deadwyler: Yeah, I read that book. I didn't know nothing about that book. I was like, 'Oh the Obama's was fucking with it? Cool.' 

David Canfield: They were. 

Danielle Deadwyler: I was like alright, alright let me see what this is about. And, and I was enraptured, right? Like it's, it's, it's one of those, it's the way life is. It's the way the brain works, memory works, the way you, you are never just linear, you are, you are incessantly moving along multiple tangents, multiple lines. Um, you're considering that you're considering history, you're considering the potential of the future. You're considering now. That's, that's, that's what that was. Like that dynamism always pop in and happen in these fragments in and out. So, yeah. I love Emily in that. Emily's structuring in that regard. 

David Canfield: Yeah. So between the, those first, that first episode that you made, and I believe you got to finish it in LA, what was it like coming back after, I don't know how long of a break you took, but that year changed all of us I feel like. And I imagine you as well, to some extent.

Danielle Deadwyler: It did, it did. My, my, my. It's funny I went to Santa Fe to do _The Harder They Fall,_ so that was my fall of 2020. And then next year, so 2021 March, almost a full year. It was a full year. We've come to shoot in Toronto. And so, you know, you've had a full, what does a full, uh, an, uh, an experience, a total experience dealing with the pandemic and, and Canada's still not playing. They're not playing at this point. You're coming, you're doing two weeks. You're you're, um, you're testing every day. You're you're in the space alone. And, and, and I, it was, it was like, it was, it was deja vu to a certain degree, except it's a hotel. And it's yeah, you're, it's almost like, 'oh shit, I didn't didn't mean to be method, but here we go.' You know, but everybody been in the thick of, of all the other episodes by then in the, in the after pandemic experience of _Station Eleven_. And so I think, yeah, it was, there's a different kind of hope at that point, especially with, you know, in dealing with our producers and dealing with folks who know the totality of the story. I, I dealt with nobody else. It was just, it was me and Gael, and, and, and David like that those are my peoples that I would see it. Like I saw Himesh a couple of times and like, 'I was like, man, what are we doing? I don't know. All right.' And then he goes off and has a totally different experience. And, and I'm in this little, little bubble and I was back in a bubble again. So it's, it's this, um, Groundhog Day kind of thing happening and yet like being okay with it, like, oh, what is the, what is the intimate thing that you're going to create today to make it, you know, to give it its uniqueness. And so that's what I was trying to do in those first two weeks of, of solitude. And then coming out, it's like... 

David Canfield: Yeah. 

Danielle Deadwyler: Cause it was all of the hotel stuff, all of her episode ten, and... The ending, the ending, so. 

David Canfield: Where, where Miranda gets to be a kind of a hero in a lot of ways. She does something very heroic. 

Danielle Deadwyler: Selfless. 

David Canfield: Selfless. Yeah. Yeah. That's what, that's the best word for it I think. 

Danielle Deadwyler: Effort to, to the last of one's self. Yeah. Give it, give it up. Like, it's like give it up like that... would have, do people give it up to the end of themselves? Like throughout this, like it was so, so it's so tragic because people were, we were so weird, you know. Would you do that for somebody, you know? So I think like that, I think I've been listening to a lot of people talk about the, talk about watching the show of some folks being like, 'I can't, I couldn't do it quite yet.' Som folks being, 'I loved it' and my ass is sitting there and watching every episode crying. And I just, I just loved experiencing this and having the ability to look at it again and, and come away with a kind of hope after having. The pre-experience, the post experience, the watching it with the audience and having, you know, looking a bit to see how people are engaging with it. Uh, we still, I mean, you still struggle. We still struggle. We still try. Yeah. So I feel good about that. Yeah. The creative nature of us all. 

David Canfield: Yeah. There's the, the creativity of it. And then there's the, like you were saying the experience of being able to share it with people. I mean, I do want to rewind the clock a little bit. I know you'd done, you know, recurred and guest starred in a number of shows, um, not to mention your work in theater, but in terms of Hollywood, for lack of a better way of putting it, this did feel like a significant moment for you especially in getting them to share your work and experience it with a large audience. Did it feel that way to you? 

Danielle Deadwyler: Oh, my, my, my, I _Watchmen_ felt that way. And, and, and, and _Station Eleven_ just felt cosmic. _Station Eleven,_ like, I dunno I just love Patrick. I just love Hiro. Like, like, like when you... I've said this before, I've desired to live in a kind of buoyancy in my experience of where as a human, just, just, you know, it's, it's a bit of like taking the reins off and just allowing yourself to flow and, and that's what that was. I have no idea, you know, like I don't care about what else is going on. I'm fully entrenched. We're rolling, we're doing what we're doing. And that's what _Station Eleven_ felt like. And it was the beginning, right? It was the beginning. So you're feeling your way through the dark, but it, it, it felt like it felt like a moment in that I did not know what it was.

David Canfield: Right. 

Danielle Deadwyler: I mean, those are always... You can't put anything on it. The minute you put something on it. Oh man. That's ketchup that's nasty, you know? Oh, I'm making a sauce, it's going to have butter and it's going to have salt and it's going to have lemon juice it. And I might throw some other stuff in there and we'll see what happens. That's that's the marvelous part. 

David Canfield: Yeah. Some good came out of this one, whatever you guys put in it.

Danielle Deadwyler: That makes me happy. 

David Canfield: So, so how did it feel coming off of it when you, when you finished making the show, did, did it feel like it was something special, you know, that you can't know going in, as you say, but especially given how much it was evidently resonating for you, what was it like to come off of that? 

Danielle Deadwyler: I mean, I always want to do something special. I don't know what that is. Is that, what is that? I value everything like that. But I know when something is able to cook a long time, then you are able to put the, you know, put it together really well. Like it's able to come together beautifully. It's more tender, like I'm not gonna do food analogies all day, but if you smoke it, if you barbecue, if you, if you allow it to slow, slow roast or whatever, it's going to be good. You know, you don't rush a gumbo, you.. You got to do this part of the process, do this part. And as weird as the pandemic and challenging and tragic as pandemic was it enabled us to know, have a certain knowledge. And pre was made pre and post was made post. Uh, you, you can't plan it. You don't want to play in there. So you come out better on the other side, hopefully more loving, hopefully more connected, hopefully interested in doing something that can, can marinate that long. Everything doesn't get to, but I liked that. I like, I liked the long, the long game. 

David Canfield: And you went from that to filming _Till_ correct?

Danielle Deadwyler: No, no. I went from that to... _From Scratch_. Yeah._ From Scratch._ 

David Canfield: _From Scratch_, which is a limited series coming up on Netflix. Um, I did want to ask you about _Till_ a little bit just because _Station Eleven_ is so heavy and I'm playing the lead role in this film, Mamie Till-Mobley, Emmett Till's mother, right after that, must've felt like a pretty intense next thing to take on after _From Scratch_.

Danielle Deadwyler: I didn't want to do it. 

David Canfield: You didn't want to do it? It's a lot. 

Danielle Deadwyler: I mean it's one of those, like, I I've been a, a load carrier for a long time. I'm on sabbatical now. I'm on Greek sabbatical because it is a weight. We deserve a bit of rest. I know I am the, the literature, the conversations, the people that I admire and read and speak to and listen to are all having conversations about what bodies, what people rather, black women, the kind of weights that they carry and Mamie Till-Mobley is a pure, like example of, of a black woman carrying the invisible load that we, we always have. That labor is, uh, I don't know how she did that, right? I am an imagining, but I don't know. We're in the face of true, true terror. Right. And our film explorers when Till- uh, when Emmett left to go visit with family and up to the end of the trial. So that's what, where you're experiencing. This very concentrated moment of what it means to, to, to be a mother in such a, in such a, in such a state. In such a, in such a moment. To become a figure in, in the most tragic moment. And, and, and to if stood as, as strong willed in and erect as she did. And with such grace in the face of real fucking terror, there's no other word for it. Real fucking terror is, um, is amazing. Pure, pure, amazing. And so, it was a very spiritual experience to say the least. It was just a discipline. I am not the most, you know, high femme presenting all the time, but you know, that is the way of, of 55, right? 1955 when she is living and thriving in, in Chicago and doing, uh, doing things that most black women weren't necessarily doing at the time. Living a kind of privileged life and then revealing onto her that privilege does not afford by people any kind of protection and living in isolated life where I'm holding and hoarding my protection. And then this tragedy still occurs and then having the wherewithal to come out of that and to know that community is still... community becomes your effort. Community becomes your mission. Mothering is still a part of who you are, even though you have lost your flesh as a result of that. That's our people, not like ya'll understand that, like this is women, the old, the, the woman who experienced, who was pressuring enough to say, I need media to understand what's happening to me before media was media. Whoa, right. And how amazing for her to be pressuring in that moment and for the longevity of it, because here we are, and we're dealing with a project that she desired. Even at the time she wanted to film made. She wanted a film made because she knew telling her story was imperative, not just for her, but community. National community, local community, global community. And we can't thank her enough, until the day she died, until the day she died. So wait, right. Yeah. I hope she is it right now. 

David Canfield: Hmm. It sounds like in the end, you are glad you did it.

Danielle Deadwyler: Yes. You know, it's the tension. I want to feel the tension for a minute. Like it's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's a part of the attraction, right? It's the tension in, in doing the thing that scares the shit out of you. And yet you dive anyway. So I know that I have to serve. I know that these are, that, that, that I don't always do things that are just fun. I do things to serve and surely that was, this is, this is me serving my progenitors. The folks who have created a space for me to be. For us all to be, right. 

David Canfield: Between this and, and _Station Eleven_, two projects have a lot of heaviness and a lot of significance to you in very different ways. How do you move between on-camera and off? What does that process look like for you of playing these characters, but also having to take it off for a little bit, at least at a time?

Danielle Deadwyler: Ooh. Uh, I'm playing. I'm playful. I think I have to like, even right now, like we like hehe right? Like my body needs it. Um, grief and all of that stuff that sits inside of us. I, um, I've, I've in the last several months have employed acupuncture, physical therapy, therapy, chiropractors. I'm looking for all the comedy I can, you know, muster and I'm particular about my comedy, but I like, like the humor of life. Like I need it, you know, but that's, that's, that's in between right. Taking the time to recover, to restore, which is very important for all of us. But on set it's, uh, it's, it varies. It varies. It varies day to day. Some stuff is... sometimes you gotta, you gotta, you got a day and you can't talk to nobody. And sometimes you got a day where you, you might have some levity, uh, and, and you, you dig into it. I love the community that is built in hair and makeup and costumes and production assistants and gaffers and grips and camera ops, and AC's. Everybody is with me. I'm looking at everybody in the eyes like it's it's, um, it's to let them know that they, you know, we all, we all together, we're all in this together, uh, on _Till._ Saved my life. Heavy scenes some days, like some really, really pivotal stuff. And Bobby, our DP, and the camera crew, they blessed me. And they went, they had on suits. Not suits, but like they had a tie and it was so it's such a warming connected moment to know that you're not alone. You're not, cause you're not the only one having that experience, you're having a specific experience, but they, they into grief with you. And so we touch, we hug, you know, we, we find joy and laughter. I think the film is trying to do that too. The film wants you to know that there, there was a life, uh, before it, there was a life through it, and there is a life that that was after. And I'm looking for, I'm looking for teeth and hilarity at any moment. I possibly can. 

David Canfield: Understandably.

Danielle Deadwyler: I am crass and all that good stuff. 

David Canfield: You got a little on _Harder They Fall_, that's another one you were talking about the crew. That's another movie that I think of where just like the amount into that production, I imagine was pretty fun for you to be around. 

Danielle Deadwyler: Yeah, no, James is a light. Like James, literally like the life that feels like beam it down. Like I'm going to catch you. I'm a catch you and you're going to be, you're going to be in this moment with me. In fact, okay, we putting on music today day, we dancing. Me and James dance, like several times, like just grooving on set. Like he, he, he, he wants you to, he wants this, the experience of making the movie to be one thing. And then the movie as presented as shared with the audience is another thing. So I really love learning that from him and to, you know, taking up a different manner in which to, to be in the making of something. Yeah. 

David Canfield: Well, as you talk to more people like me and do more of these for public facing projects, suddenly you are everywhere. How do you- 

Danielle Deadwyler: I am not ubiquitous. I don't know what you're talking about. I'm very concentrated. 

David Canfield: Um, how do you feel about the exposure though? It's gotta be somewhat new. 

Danielle Deadwyler: I'm a quiet person. I'm a private person. I don't, I don't mind talking, but I mean, it's, it's different. It's different. I have a, I have a son who I want to have a life, uh, a regular life as much as he wants to. And I want people to treat me as a, as a human. Like I think that's just all I can do as much as I possibly can, so people can know that whatever you see in me, whatever you're experiencing in me is very much a part of you in however you are presenting yourself in the world is seeking to make yourself in the world. Uh, I hope that I'm hoping I'm giving that off and I'm sharing that. And, um, and I want to do that as much in an intimate manner, as opposed to in digital spaces. I have a social media presence, but that's, that's, that's a professional dynamic, right? Yeah. I'd much rather like, just be cool and engage in person and be like, 'Hey, what's up.' It's not. All of the performative picture and all that stuff, I'm really just want to be human with folks. So I'm going to make it as, as, as, uh, unbothered, as I possibly can. Let's just be humans together y'all. Yeah. Let's just be humans. 

David Canfield: Well, I'll wrap with that with a human question, which is in all these very different roles, really basic and really complicated question, what do you love about acting? What do you get out of acting and particularly these roles? Um, yeah. What do they leave you with? That's an easy question. 

Danielle Deadwyler: Wow, I really have no words now. Acting, being, it's just been a part of my life since I was a kid. Since I was literally like four or five years old. And I get a vitality in the experience of it. I get community. I get to recall aspects of myself that I may have forgotten. And to do that with people on a set, in a theater, in a theater on stage or in a theater, in a, in a cinema edifice, I get it's it's, it's a, it's a constant reconnection to, to, to being. Because not just being a humanist, being a lot of things. It's just a, I don't know, I think it's also getting to a stillness in the quiet too. You know, everybody wants to feel a surge, the pulse of a moment. And when everybody's energy is concentrated into a moment together, whether you're saying something or not, folk know that. And that's, that's hypnotic and it's transformative for us all. And so I like to be a part of that, whether I am an audience member or a cast member or anything, it's to be there and to, to serve the moment is, is a holy experience. So, hallelujah. 

David Canfield: I can't think of a better note to end on. Danielle Deadwyler, thank you so much for joining us. 

Danielle Deadwyler: Thank you, David.

Katey Rich: And now we're going to go to my interview with Cooper Raiff, who was a huge breakout success at this year sentence film festival with his film, _Cha Cha Real Smooth_, which won the grand jury prize, uh, which is pretty much the top Sundance prize. You might remember it went to _Coda, _uh, the year before, and this movie was also picked up by Apple TV Plus. Um, he had a previous breakout hit with _Shithouse_, uh, which was a big South by Southwest winter a few years ago, um, kind of right at the start of the pandemic. So he's had this like breakout moment entirely in COVID times, which I think has been very strange. Um, he's kind of famously young. He is 25 years old and has made two feature films. So you can- 

David Canfield: 25?! 

Katey Rich: I know, I know. We're all allowed to grapple with that on our own time. Um, and he also stars in this movie alongside Dakota Johnson. He plays, uh, a bar mitzvah party starter. He's more or less a guy who's graduated from college, doesn't know what to do with himself and kind of gets entangled with the single mom, played by Dakota Johnson, um, and, and grows up a little bit in the process. And I think we've all kind of learned to be skeptical maybe of the like young English, white guy learns about himself, uh, dramas, but he's making them better. And in a way that fits with 2022, I think. You also saw _Cha Cha Real Smooth_ right, David? 

David Canfield: Yeah. No, and I completely agree. I was also a big fan of, of _Shithouse_ and I think generally the writing in his movies is so natural and when that can come through in the performances and he and Dakota Johnson of such this have this easy, natural, really funny rapport that I think comes through in a, in a really authentic way. And, and it's, it's a pleasure to spend some time with them. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. And it was so lovely talking to him too. And he's been mentored by Jay Duplass for a long time and I can, I can kind of see him really aiming for that path where it's not just making his own films, but helping other people and producing and like kind of creating the 2020s version of what the Duplass brothers and Joe Swanberg and that kind of crew did, uh, in the 2000s, like being able to actually make a path forward. Um, and I, you know, I think he's got pretty much all the tools he needs to do it. Um, so let's hear my conversation with Cooper Raiff.

Well, Cooper Raiff, thank you for joining us on_ Little Gold Men_. It's been a long time since Sundance, so I hope you're ready to talk about this movie again. 

Cooper Raiff: Yeah, I hope I remember everything about it. 

Katey Rich: I feel like the odds of you remembering the details of something you created yourself and we're in, like I'm counting on it. I, I'm imagining is pretty burned into your DNA at this point. 

Cooper Raiff: I think so, yes. And I've done, I've done quite a few interviews. 

Katey Rich: Are you getting used to it at all? And I feel like doing press can be a really unnatural thing to adjust to when you're, when you're starting out.

Cooper Raiff: It's intense to repeat the same things over and over again. That it's not, it's not natural. Yeah. But I, but I, I feel grateful and like yeah. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. Yeah. I was doing an interview with someone else this week who was talking about how weird it is to be like summarized by somebody else who's trying to like, describe like who you are and what your deal is, which is an inevitable thing about being profiled. But I had never thought about how weird that must be, cause it must be really weird to be like "X, X, X, Y, and Z thing is what Cooper Raiff is." It's uh, it's weird.

Cooper Raiff: It's even weirder when they're all very similar and they're all the same. Then you start to realize, okay, that is how people see me. 

Katey Rich: That is the vibe. For now, at least. Um, well, I want to start by just going back to the _Shithouse_ premiere at South By, um, which was virtual and weird, but also, you know, launched your career in all these specific ways, how soon after that was the birth of _Cha Cha Real Smooth?_ 

Cooper Raiff: Oh, it was, I started writing a character named Domino, she was basically just a mother of a disabled kid who's life stages are defined by her kid's life stages and will always be. And that was just a character that I had written in college, and then I made _Shithouse_ and people started asking what I wanted to make next. I really wanted to make this TV show next, and so every, every time I could, I would just pitch this TV show. But then some people were like, 'we don't do TV, can you tell me about a movie?' And so I would, I would, I, there was a couple things that I was, 'well, I have these things in mind' and _Cha Cha_ was one of them, but it was really just about this mom. And so for the first like 10 pitches of that. I was just like, 'I think moms are cool' and people were like 'that's not a movie idea.' And then at some point I thought of, uh, I had this other character that I was thinking about, which was just the person that I know best, which is a 22 year old dumb ass. And so I kind of put them together and was trying to figure out a way for them to keep coming into contact. And when I had the bar mitzvah circuit idea, then I got really excited to pitch that. And I pitched the first person I pitched that bar mitzvah idea to was Ro Donnelley, who ended up producing _Cha Cha Real Smooth_. So yeah, it was born, really the idea was born in college within the real, like hook of it was born of the day before I pitched it to Ro and I hadn't written the script. So I wrote it, I wrote it the week, the week after I met Ro. 

Katey Rich: And I feel like that period after you've had a film break, the way that _Shithouse_ did, can be really overwhelming where you've got a lot of people, like you said, saying what do you want to do next, and I imagine a lot of people being like, 'here's what I think you should do next. This is the career path you have in place.' How do you keep your bearings and, and stick with something like an idea you'd had for years and not just kind of like go running after whatever the shiny thing someone's dangling at you is? 

Cooper Raiff: Just knowing what you're going to be really bad at. I think I, there are certain things that people thought I should do and thought would be in my wheelhouse, and I had just a very... I think I know myself pretty well, and I know what I'm not going to be able to offer much too. So that's how. 

Katey Rich: I mean, I know that in... when people make their first movies, a lot of times they make something really small or set in one room because of budget or, you know, uh, talent, not talent, but like skill constraints, and _Shithouse_ really is that kind of movie. But it sounds like that's the kind of movie that you would have made if you had $20 million. Like something intimate and character-driven like that. 

Cooper Raiff: Definitely. It's this tricky thing where... I was just talking to someone, I was talking to Jay Duplass and he was like, 'dude, less money is better.' And I was like, 'what are you talking about?' um, but there's the, there's a certain point where you want everyone on set to be taken care of and supported in the right ways and to be happy working. And so you want as many days as possible, but like there are a certain, there's a certain sweet spot that I think I've found and, um, I really want to... I stay in that sweet spot, which is making a movie where people are really just like, it's just two people talking for most of it. And maybe there's a little hook that can trick people into thinking it's going to be a big party movie, but at the end of the day, it's going to be two characters talking about depression. 

Katey Rich: I mean, the Duplass brothers really emblemize that exact kind of movie when they started breaking out about 15 years ago. And it's almost something like I'm so happy to see that people still want to make movies like that, that it wasn't seen as like a passing fad. Is it hard to convince people that like movies about talking about two people, talking in a room, and movies and not TV, which I think is where a lot of these stories tend to go these days, is that an uphill battle for you to get people to get behind it? 

Cooper Raiff: Sometimes, definitely. I mean, with _Cha Cha _it was definitely a battle. But I think what, what I've luckily learned and what I can luckily point to now is that there's a sweet spot that makes it very lucrative. And people don't re- people don't think about a movie with two people talking as something that's going to make you a lot of money, but when you make it for the right amount of money, then you have a, maybe a person like Dakota Johnson in it, uh, that, that, like _Cha Cha_ did really well. And so like it now, like the two companies that made that movie like, I know that they're going to give the next talky filmmaker less grief. 

Katey Rich: Do you, are you okay knowing and being involved with those financial details? I feel like there are some directors who just want to make the art and have the producers deal with it, but it sounds like you're kind of comfortable with the commerce side of things.

Cooper Raiff: I am. I have to be. Like, there's really no choice. Like, especially when you don't have... I've only had the experience with _Cha Cha_. Like with _Shithouse_, we had no money, so I didn't really have to deal with anything cause it was like, 'here's your penny.' And I'm like, all right, I'm not going to be able to use this in any way. Um, but, but so with _Cha Cha_, my experience was, 'Hey, figure out how to save your movie like every single week.' Like there was this like constant, 'how are we going to cut six days?' And like, I'm just like, 'what?' So there's, I mean, making _Cha Cha_ so massively difficult. And I'm hoping that this next movie I'm making won't be as difficult because I'll be able to say 'no, I think we can... I think it would be smart if you guys threw in an extra, however, blank amount of money.'

Katey Rich: Or like we can use this location or like there's so many nitty gritty decisions like that in making a small movie like this work. 

Cooper Raiff: Yeah, but for _Cha Cha_ there was one person, a couple people, who just decided that actually, 'we're going to have to shave... we're going to have to shave a million off of this.' And you're like, 'what are you talking- what?' And it's just like, well, we just don't, like it's not smart for this to be this. It needs to be a million less. And then they tell you if it's not a million less, your movie is going to go away. And they're really smart because they know that you're a young filmmaker who has poured their heart and soul on this, and you're going to figure it out. And so that's, that's the thing, that's the dangerous thing. And that's why it's really important to... I've told like other filmmakers it's just important to, to like have a backup plan and like to know your know your worth. And like, know that movies can go away and, and people will use that- people have that leverage of like you being a passionate filmmaker and it's slimy and awful, but it's just the way things work sometimes.

Katey Rich: Yeah. I mean, when, when Sundance happens and the movie has the success that it does, did you feel that weight lift? Like knowing that, that kind of thing wasn't as likely to happen anymore? 

Cooper Raiff: Oh, man. I mean, not just, I, I'm not, I'm not like an angry person, but it wasn't just a weight, it was like I wanted to, like, I was like gritting my teeth like hoping to like be in certain people's faces. Like, can you like, look at this. 

Katey Rich: Like look at me now, like, yeah- 

Cooper Raiff: Yes, or no. Look me in the eyes, and like, let's just have a moment where we look at each other and say how wrong you were. And like like that, that, that stuff like really... cause I mean, yeah, it was hard. It was hard. And so many people worked so hard and, and, and helped in so many ways, but there was, there were these like these parameters that everyone just said yes to working inside where, and I was constantly like, why are we saying yes? This is, this is, this is not right. Um, but, and, and now I. I've had some conversations where I'm just like, man, I really want you to tell me how, how, how wrong you were. And, and I, and the biggest part of that is don't treat anybody else like that. Like that that's not the way... you shouldn't be just spending every second of making a movie trying to prove something. And cause it, it felt like that sometimes. And I'm, and I've been very clear with like my producers of this next movie that I'm doing that I do not want to do that. Like you're, you're either in with me or you're, you're not. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. Is that something that someone like Jay Duplass can warn you is going to happen? Did he, did he experience the same thing and, and, and warn you? 

Cooper Raiff: Yes, but he's a much nicer guy. 

Katey Rich: He does seem very sweet. 

Cooper Raiff: He's so sweet, and, but no, he, and you know what? He's got his brother Mark, who I think is a bit... they've figured it out where like they protect themselves very well. 

Katey Rich: Or they have each other to kind of balance off and you just have yourself. I mean, you work with other people, but protecting your vision. It's just you. 

Cooper Raiff: Yeah, no, um, well, I have... I, honestly, Ro Donnelley was like my fierce protector and she was always, and, and, and she was always the person that I, she's also very nice. So I was - I would vent to her and say, 'I think you're being too nice right now,' but she was always fiercely protecting the, the vision and, and her, her, the crew. And, but, but yeah, with Jay and Mark, one guy gets to be like, they can go back and forth between I'm going to play a nice guy and you can play like guy. 

Katey Rich: Good cop, bad cop, classic format. 

Cooper Raiff: Exactly. So I don't have that necessarily. Yeah. 

Katey Rich: And so when you, when you start working with Ro, she works with Dakota Johnson, so you kind of have Dakota there all along. And I think you said you wrote the part, like with her in mind, but was that part of the initial discussion having her in it? Was that always a possibility for _Cha Cha_? 

Cooper Raiff: Yeah. Cause I, I really, I pitched it to Ro when I didn't really have any of the actual script. And then next day I met with Dakota. She was like in Greece and it was late at night and she's about to film _The Lost Daughter. _

Katey Rich: Oh, nice. Speaking of moms, my God. 

Cooper Raiff: Yeah, exactly and so I told her about the part and she was like, 'I'm in.' And so then the next day I started writing it just for her. And I remember I was watching so many, so many Dakota clips on YouTube while writing it. So it was very much written for her. 

Katey Rich: Yeah, because she, the character of Domino and Dakota, I think both have this ability to sit in silence and say something that doesn't totally make perfect sense, but not elaborate on it. Which is not a power I have, so maybe that's why I notice it so much. And that feels like something you really have to know that you're writing for someone who can pull that off. 

Cooper Raiff: You should- you don't need- I always say it about her, you don't need to explain things. And like the, you don't have to have that, that exposition with her. You can really tell the story through the lens of this 22 year old dumb ass, because she is going to tell you so much, tell the audience so much. Even when Andrew necessarily isn't comprehending all of it because he's a 22 year old dumb ass.

Katey Rich: Well, why, why were moms, I mean, not just Domino, but also Andrew's mom played by Leslie Mann, like those are two really interesting parallel characters. And you said you even wrote this character in college, why did, uh, uh, moms specifically interest you? 

Cooper Raiff: Well, Freud would have a lot to say about the movie. The whole movie to me was about Andrew's like 'make happy' complex. Like he spent a lot of time in his childhood protecting and taking care of his mom. And, and I think he always is gravitating towards the person in the room that he thinks has the most open, vulnerable heart and is trying to help those people get, get strong or, yeah. And there are two scenes that are back to back and it's Domino and Andrew in the kitchen and then right after that, it's mom and Andrew in the kitchen. And with the mom, it's that scene ends with her talking about how he, he grew up too, too fast, or he grew up fast as a kid and then it ends with her saying like, sorry. And that was just my way of trying to say I think Domino represents his mom in a lot of ways. And I think Andrew doesn't have that relationship with his mom anymore cause his stepdad Greg is in the mix and Andrew is so mean to him. So mean. 

Katey Rich: And he's so nice. 

Cooper Raiff: I know he's so nice. I think it's just that Andrew comes home and he's like, 'wait, I'm her husband. Why are you here? What are you, what is this house?' But, um, but yeah, no, I think that's what I love about the movie is that Domino is representing something, um, bigger. I think at the end, when Andrew's crying pretty hard I think it's not just cause he's gonna miss, he is gonna miss Domino and Lola, but I think he's been relieved of something bigger and, and only Domino could do that. I think as much as mom wants to say, 'I'm happy.' I think hearing about Domino's happiness and Domino telling him to go figure out who he is, is really a big, big, massive thing for him as a person. 

Katey Rich: Did you say that she was always named Domino? Cause it's not like the most common of names. Was it that from the beginning? 

Cooper Raiff: She, I did probably say that, but I, I actually was gonna say, cause her name was Kate. The original name was Kate in college. And then when Dakota came along, I was like, that girl is not named Kate. 

Katey Rich: Although didn't she... wasn't she on a show called like _Ben and Kate._ Wasn't that what that show was called?

Cooper Raiff: Oh, I don't I haven't seen that. 

Katey Rich: I'm going to look this up while I talk to you because I think she has played a Kate, but anyway, I agree with you. 

Cooper Raiff: Yes. Yeah, they got that wrong. 

Katey Rich: She totally played Kate on a, on a sitcom. 

Cooper Raiff: Oh my gosh, wow. 

Katey Rich: Um, but no- 

Cooper Raiff: Maybe a Katie? 

Katey Rich: Well, as a Katey, it'd be proud to be shared with Dakota Johnson. But, so, so then how to Domino become the name?

Cooper Raiff: I don't know. I, I don't, I don't know. 

Katey Rich: I mean, that is- because I thought about, um, cause Domino and Lola Kirke are Jemima Kirke's sisters and having a Domino and a Lola I wondered if that was in there somewhere. 

Cooper Raiff: Oh my God, I know. It was not on purpose, but Ro, Ro one time, like really late in the game was like, 'wait, Lola and Domino Kirke are two people.' and I was like, 'oh God, let's hope they never see it.' I'm actually friends with Lola and I have not talked to her about it. I'm very scared for her to see it. 

Katey Rich: I feel like it's an honor. I would, uh, I would go with it. 

Cooper Raiff: Well, it's funny because like, it's, Domino's her older sister, not her mother. Um, but, but yeah, it's, I just, I know the conversation I'm gonna have with her is like, 'did you name me after' or did you name that character after me?' Um, yeah, but yes. 

Katey Rich: It was interesting what you're saying about the realizations that Andrew comes to in terms of like what he doesn't know and kind of realizing what he doesn't know and not having his life defined my things, because you are defining your life in a way that most 20 somethings don't. And I'm sure that you have thought about this in creating these more aimless characters that you are then playing, but do you get jealous of your characters that they get to figure shit out and you're kind of on a path that, you know, is the one that you have chosen, but it is you, you are defining yourself in a way that Andrew certainly does not have to yet.

Cooper Raiff: Yeah, I, but I think I really relate to, because it was funny, someone was saying, people have pointed out the difference, like, oh, you as a person, you're doing all of these things and you're working so hard and Andrew's not. He's just working at Meat Sticks. But Andrew, I relate so hard to Andrew because the dude has given 120% in his relationship with Domino and Lola and I, and I'm doing the same thing with... I'm making movies, but after I made _Cha Cha_, especially after it sold, I really took a step back. Like I actually like I'm doing therapy for the first time. And I'm like, I'm really, I very much relate to not having the slightest clue who I am and like who I am like in a room without my laptop and without my writing, without diving into something 120%. So, so I, I do really actually relate. And yeah, I guess I envy that he has that time to figure out who you are, who he is, but like, I, but I also really have a moment right now, I'm so lucky in that i, I can have that. And I can, I don't need to dive into the next project. I can take some time and do some, some of my twenties.

Katey Rich: I think you said previously that you think of yourself as a writer primarily like, do you think there's ever a point where you would not be a filmmaker and write other things or write for other people? Like, does that path still seem open to you? 

Cooper Raiff: I, I, so I've done a lot of thinking recently and I know that I'm making a movie this year in September, and then I have this show that I really want to do after, but I got, I'm saying it now, I think after that, I'm going to... I'm in the middle of trying to start a production company. And my big goal and my big dream and how I really see my life is not being a writer, director, or actor, but rather just producing other people's work and trying to champion other people because I, I think I've always wanted to be a part of making movies. And I just kind of happened into doing all things because, because no one was... I didn't have a single connection. And when I made _Shithouse_, I asked like 20 people to direct it, but then at some point I realized no one wanted to direct my small college love story for no money. And so I, so I did it. And then with _Cha Cha,_ that was like what I had sold with _Shithouse,_ that's why I ended up doing it. And I think I'm in this path where really the past two months I've been thinking about it a lot and what do I actually want to do? And I think what I want to do is just like, be a part of making movies and, and, and help young people like, and I want, I want to be that like fierce protector that I think everyone probably needs in this filth filthy business. I think that's what I want to do. 

Katey Rich: Well, that's a Duplass model too, right? Like they, they pivoted to making other people's movies pretty quickly after they had some, um, cachet there.

Cooper Raiff: Yes.

Katey Rich: And you're not acting in the next one right? 

Cooper Raiff: I'm not acting the next one. 

Katey Rich: Does that feel like a, um, like a weight off your shoulders? 

Cooper Raiff: Oh yeah. It feels like... I feel so selfish, so much more self-assured. Yeah. I'm like just trusting myself as a director, and I know that I like to be close to my actors, but I don't need to be so close that I'm literally in the scene with them.

Katey Rich: Well, and I think it gives you a shared language, even if you're not actually on camera together. Like that they, that you know the vulnerability that actors can have in a way that you might not, if you hadn't been on camera. 

Cooper Raiff: And I'll be vulnerable too. I think it's really important as a director to be emotionally available when you're behind the monitor. Like, I don't want to, I don't want to be this cold and distant puppeteer. Like I want be in and get bloody with the characters. And- 

Katey Rich: Are there directors other than Jay Duplass maybe who you look at as a, either a style of how they do the directing or how the movies turn out that, that you want to follow in the footsteps of in some way?

Cooper Raiff: I love when I think about specifically as a director and I think about on set and probably how they, I've never obviously been on this person set, but David O. Russell is someone who, the way his movies have this kinetic energy about them. But my favorite filmmakers are like all across the board. Like love, love Sofia Coppola. I love like Greta Gerwig and the Duplass brothers and... 

Katey Rich: Yeah, I love what you said in another interview about Greta Gerwig's like affection for her characters, which I think is just the thing that makes all of those movies work so well and I don't think enough directors do that somehow.

Cooper Raiff: Oh yeah totally. Yeah I don't know why everybody doesn't do that. Yeah. 

Katey Rich: That does it for today's interview episode, we'll be back on Thursday with our usual roundtable conversation. You can find this in the meantime at vanityfair.com, on Twitter at @littlegoldmen and on our own. I am @kateyrich and David? 

David Canfield: @davidcanfield97. 

Katey Rich: Please text with us also at subtext, joinedsubutex.com/littlegoldmen, or text 917-809-7096. Our editor and producer, as always, is Brett Fuchs.