Katey Rich: Hello, and welcome to _Little Gold Men_ the award season podcast from _Vanity Fair_. 

Intro: "It's such an honor to present this next award." "And here are the nominees." "And the Oscar goes to..." "And the Oscar goes to..." "And I can't deny the fact that you like me. Right now, you like me." "I'm the king of the world!" "There's a mistake, _Moonlight_, you guys won best picture."

Katey Rich: I am Katey Rich, it's Emmy voting season, and I'm here with Richard Lawson. 

Richard Lawson: Hello. 

Katey Rich: With David Canfield. 

David Canfield: Hello. 

Katey Rich: And Rebecca Ford. 

Rebecca Ford: Hi. 

Katey Rich: So, yes, Emmy voters have their ballots now. Um, and we have, we have dived deep into the ballots themselves, which you can talk about later. So we're gonna talk about a lot of our Emmy stuff that we are running right now, including some of the most fascinating conversations I think any of us get to have all year where we really get to dive deep on a lot of these shows. Um, we'll talk about some news, including, uh, _Lightyear_ at the box office and the _Father of the Bride_ remake that's out now. And we'll continue our pride flashback series with a look back at 2011's _Pariah_. But before we get to any of that, we've got some breaking news this week. The Academy has announced this year's Governor's Awards honorees, and has been the tradition for years past, they will be celebrated at a separate ceremony in November. Which we can talk about how much we support that. Um, but the lineup is pretty fascinating. We've got Michael J. Fox getting the Hersholt award, the humanitarian award for his work on behalf of Parkinson's, and you know, General Hollywood stature. Um, Peter Weir, the director of _The Truman Show_ and _Master_ _Commander_ among others. Diane Warren, our really, we talk about her every year. Nominated so many times as a songwriter getting an honorary award. And then Euzhan Palcy who directed _A_ _Dry White Season_ and was the first black woman to direct a studio film period, um, back in the eighties, will all be the honorary winners. Uh, Rebecca, you wrote up the news for us, so how do you feel about this list?

Rebecca Ford: I feel really excited about it. I think Diane Warren was the first name that really popped out to me because obviously we talk about her literally every season, because she gets nominated every single season and, and has not won. She has 13 nominations at this point and, and I root for her to win every year. And there's just like, you know, because of the way the seasons go, there's, there's a hot song that, that beats her out for original song every year. So I'm excited to get to see her take that stage and give an exception speech. But I do feel like the entire group is, is a lot of good choices. 

Katey Rich: Richard, who's speech are you excited to see? 

Richard Lawson: Well, I mean, Diane Warren. You know, she did an interview with _Variety,_ like about this news, and you know, when those honorary things are announced, especially to someone who's like never won competitively, but has had many chances to, you start to- you worry that like oh, this is just some sort of sad little consolation prize. But she seems genuinely excited like partly because she's the first songwriter to ever get an honorary Oscar, which so that like adds an extra distinction to it. She's like I'm gonna put it somewhere pro- on my piano so I can see it every day. Like she seems really excited and I think that's the right mood to go into it with. Who cares if you didn't win competitively. Maybe it's even better that they said, regardless of anything you've made this year, we're gonna give you an Oscar anyway. Um, I think that's cool. And, you know, look, I, I think further down the line of, of world renowned, I think that Euzhan Palcy getting this is great because I am not really aware of her work. I, I certainly knew... I'd heard of _A Dry White_ _Season,_ I've never seen it, but, um, I guess this gives me a really good reason to finally watch it. Not only, Katey, you mentioned the studio film thing, she's also the first, um, black woman to win a César Award or director. She has a, a long list of kind of firsts and accomplishments and I think it's really cool that in addition to the more PR buzzworthy Diane Warren inclusion, that they also are giving it to someone who really could benefit from that recognition. 

Katey Rich: Yeah, it feels like a nice balance of the Academy's recent impulse to really expand their horizons, pay more attention to international film, to marginalized voices, and then recognize the Diane Warrens of the world. Or the Peter Weirs who has made so many fantastic films. Like going all the way back to _Witness, Picnic at Hanging Rock_, uh, and doesn't have an Oscar either. Um, and I would remind everyone that Spike Lee got an honorary Oscar and then won a competitive one, like two years later, so no one's giving up here. 

Rebecca Ford: Yeah, I, I do I always think this is a way for the Academy to highlight someone that should have probably, you know, been much more in the conversation years ago, but obviously with the makeup, the, uh, makeup of the Academy and, and the opportunities for, you know, people from wide backgrounds has not always been there. So I, I love the Governor's Award. I think it's, it's a great way to, you know, bring people back into the conversation and, and like Richard said, I think we should probably all watch her film and, and talk about it on this podcast maybe. Yeah, because it's definitely gonna give people a chance to appreciate her work again.

Katey Rich: Well, we'll all watch _A Dry White Season _and_ Picnic at Hanging Rock_ and listen to, uh, _Nothing's Gonna Stop Us Now_ and _Don't Wanna Miss a Thing _and_ Doc Hollywood_, and be fully prepared for the Governor's Awards. 

Richard Lawson: We could go really deep and watch, uh, _For Love or Money_ the much reviled Michael J. Fox movie from the early nineties.

Katey Rich: I'm sure that's a, a major part of what this award's being given for. Um, real quick, before we move on, Rebecca, you attend the Governor's Awards for us. You went this past year where it was a little bit of a muted ceremony because of COVID. Um, but what, what should Diane Warren and Peter Weir be bracing for when they accept these awards?

Rebecca Ford: Well, it sounds like this one will be back, hopefully, you know, in the form it was before COVID. Last year's was, um, pushed because of the COVID surge, so it happened outside of voting and right before, um, the Oscars, which meant that the people vying for Oscars did not come. So it was very small. It was really a wonderful event and it felt really special, but it wasn't- usually this event is very big because all of the people hoping to win an Oscar come to sort of kiss the ring and work the room and talk to voters and things like that. So it sounds like this, if it stays in November as planned, will be back to that sort of big spectacle. Still un-televised, but that's, it's really cool to be in a, you know, it's a very star studied room when it is in that form and it's a lot of their obviously colleagues and collaborators there to support them and, and it feels, I think being in front of a room that big will feel special for them to accept the, the Oscars on stage like that. So I hope it, it remains as planned to be sort of that big, wonderful event and, and, you know, last year this clip of Samuel L. Jackson and, and Denzel Washington, who presented to him sort of went viral and everyone was like, why isn't this televised? Like, it looks so special. So I, I do wonder if they there's a, a solution for that because they just show little clips right now during the main Oscars, I believe. 

Katey Rich: Yeah, or if that. You know, I feel like they they've been trying to shove it off the broadcast as much as possible. So we'll, we'll continue beating the drum for them to give it it's proper spotlight, because these people are all worthy.

So let's start by just, uh, congratulating ourselves, or I guess I'll congratulate you, Rebecca, because you heroically wrangled yet another reunited series, um, which is so fun. I like seriously, some of the best interviews you get to see with people because they're talking to each other. Um, and I don't know if you wanna start with the behind the scenes of how incredibly hard it was to get people to reunite because everyone's working so much right now.

Rebecca Ford: Yeah, it did feel, you know, we started this a year ago during Emmy season, and then we did Oscar season and this time around did feel harder because I think it just seems like everyone is back in production. You know, we had a major slowdown during the pandemic and, and now everyone is sort of playing catch up. So trying to get people to spend a little bit of time between shooting to do these conversations, even over zoom, turned out to be really hard. Obviously we wanted to do a couple in person, but that turned out to be nearly impossible. I think we got some really great pairings, uh, but like, I remember trying to get Jennifer Coolidge it was like she was shooting season two of _White Lotus_ in Italy, and you had to like find her in her Villa. And, and so there was just a lot of like tracking down people on set. Which is not a bad problem to have, you know, I'm glad everything is up and moving again. But I thought, um, the pairings, we did like the, the original projects that they met on I felt like were some really important films that, you know, a lot of people still care about today. So that I think was the most exciting thing about this group that we, we got paired this time around. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. As an old millennial I was so excited that, uh, Hillary Buses talked to Gaby Hoffmann and Christina Ricci. Um, Christina Ricci from her like hotel room in Mexico on vacation with her family like put her baby on camera. Um, like that, that one meant a lot to me. Um, but in terms of the ones you did, Rebecca, what, um, which reunion did you maybe enjoy the most? 

Rebecca Ford: Um, I, well, as a fan of _Gilmore Girls_, I thought it was really fun to get Danny Strong and Amy Sherman-Palladino back together. Um, you know, obviously Danny was an actor back then, but now he's the creator and showrunner of _Dopesick_, and he's become sort of this, uh, very prolific writer and TV creator. So they, they are still very good friends and it, and Danny calls, uh, Amy sort of his, uh, adopted aunt. So they have such a good banter with each other and had a lot to say about sort of how streaming has changed everything and, and how they sort of view having their projects released on streaming and the, the pluses and minuses of that.

Katey Rich: And David, you got to moderate, uh, Dustin Lance Black and Josh Brolin, who really like in the, in your write up like your voice isn't in it at all, cause they were just so excited to talk to each other. 

David Canfield: It truly began with Josh, like arriving a couple minutes late. Dustin, very Dustin Lance Black very excitedly greeting him and then they just started asking each other questions. And like, I think 45 minutes in because it was, it was a long one, Dustin Lance Black looks at me and, oh, David, did you need to ask us anything? And I was like, no, you guys, you guys keep going. No, but they were, they were great. I mean, that movie was pretty seminal for me.

Katey Rich: Uh, _Milk_ you mean? 

David Canfield: Probably- yes. _Milk,_ one we easily could have talked about, uh, on this series, in fact. 

Katey Rich: Yes. 

David Canfield: And so hearing the two of them talk about the project that got both of them are first and only Oscar nominations and Dustin Lance Black won for Best Original Screenplay was, was really moving. You know, they've got, they went in really different directions with their careers. Brolin, um, was kind of in the midst of a, of a comeback and is now pretty much a bonafide A Lister and, and Dustin Lance Black actually left Hollywood for a while to work on, um, marriage equality and that campaign, and has suddenly come back with, with a with force, uh, with _Under the Banner_ _of Heaven_, his new show. Um, so they had a lot to talk about. 

Katey Rich: Yeah, these are all really wonderful reads. Um, and like, there's just something about getting people talking to each other. I mean, we, you know, David and Rebecca, you and Richard too, you guys all like moderate, you know, onstage panels and Q&A's, like, not that we are not good at our jobs interviewing, but how would you describe the energy of people who have worked together kind of getting to bounce off of each other because I think that's so much of the power of these interviews. 

Rebecca Ford: Yeah. I think they, they have an ability to ask questions we maybe wouldn't think of, you know, because they are collaborators and they know this industry better than we do. And, and I think they can also be more playful with each other, obviously because they have these relationships and history and I, it does result in something really special. Um, I had, you know, Michael Che and Sam Richardson wrote together on _Detroiters_, which was a show, um, that Sam Richardson starred on and, and that was a long time ago and I just felt like they were able to sort tell stories about Charles Barkley and just all these sort of random stories that I would never think to ask about that, you know, and, and they can sort of dig into their history like that. And it just creates a really, like you said, unique discussion. 

Katey Rich: I wanted to hear more about, uh, Sam Richardson working at Disney World. He kind of just dropped that and moved on and I was like, wait a second, what was that? 

Rebecca Ford: I know I looked up, he was like in a sort of _Lion King_ sort of thing? I don't know. He had some interesting, uh, work stories that he was able to share. And Michael Che who did like door to door marketing it just... yeah they have tons of great stories and, yeah, it's cool to see those come up. 

Katey Rich: Uh, well, David, you are in the middle of shepherding another series of people talking to each other, um, which is a shot list franchise, which I've gotten to do as well. Um, which is a lot more nitty gritty. You know, you're talking to directors and cinematographers mostly, but man, the stuff that you get out of people from these conversations. Uh, and that I, you know, I talk to Ben Stiller and Jessica Lee Gagné of _Severance_ and same for me. Um, these are so fun to do how's it been for you this time around?

David Canfield: A lot of transcribing, a lot of sifting through. Um, but this is one of my favorite things that we do every year, because just getting the director and the cinematographer on zoom together, they, in every case this time, and almost always, you know, they haven't seen each other in a while. They are incredibly close collaborators and so there's a really positive energy that immediately kickstarts the interview and then, uh, they just have a lot of stories. Um, one that I'm most excited about is the _Better Call Saul_ one. It's Vince Gilligan talking with his DP, and it's a lot of Vince Gilligan talking about really how he has worked as a director since the very beginning of _Breaking Bad,_ which was such a transformative show for TV, visually and aesthetically. There's a lot of homage in the episode we talk about. A lot of foreshadowing because this is a prequel getting closer and closer to the events of _Breaking Bad_ and, and you just see how much care and thought and also just skill goes into every frame. And, and it's one show where it's really worth scrutinizing the details.

Katey Rich: I love it when you get into the care and thought from a show, but also the, the hurdles that they just have to overcome in the moment. Yeah. Um, like Derek Lawrence talked to Hiro Murai and his cinematographer about _Atlanta_, which has this really surreal moment in an episode, that's mostly about this young black boy where he sees a dog dressed up as his grandfather and they had built this like human mannequin basically that the dog could like sit on a platform inside, but it, then the dog turned out to be like a Chihuahua, so the head was just comically small for the body and they were like, oh, well, okay, this is what we're gonna go with. And it's so much funnier that way, but they never planned for it. Um, I love just even like the most genius, like high level operating people in their fields like they gotta roll with the punches sometimes. 

David Canfield: Yeah. On the _Better Call Saul_ one, actually we have a, we have a long story about the journey of the Statue of Liberty giant inflatable, which was in _Breaking Bad_ and makes its first appearance in _Better Call Saul_ this season in this episode and the, the sourcing of it and the need for the wind not to kill it after surviving, because it's the same one surviving for, you know, over a decade. Um, it's quite a story. 

Katey Rich: Um, well, yeah, the shot list series will be rolling out, uh, all week and Reunited is available to watch. We have a ton of other stuff that, you know, all kinds of freelancers and we are writing, making a scene and character building and digging into, you know, basically every show that we're passionate about, which is, again, what's really fun about Emmy season. Um, so Richard, I'm gonna make you talk about TV real quick before we move off of Emmy's. Um, because we do have Emmy voters listening to the show, I believe. Um, and I just wanna give us all one less chance to kind of grab people by the collars and say, pay attention to this. Um, so Richard, is there anything that you are pulling for in these last moments of Emmy voting?

Richard Lawson: Well, first of all, hello, Emmy voters. Uh, if you're in line to vote, stay in line. Um, yeah, I mean, there's prob there's so much. I mean, I hope people remember the _White Lotus_, which was 14 years ago, but is somehow eligible for this year. Um, not just Jennifer Coolidge, but maybe some of the other performances, Murray Bartlett, perhaps. And also _Station Eleven_, which came at this weird just pre-Christmas time I feel like, and there were some fans of it, but like, I feel like it, it otherwise went very quietly. So I hope that that show and its many good performances get recognized. Um, basically just rewatch what HBO put out this season and find your favorite thing within that.

Katey Rich: Well, David, you just dove deep on the Emmy ballot for a piece that people can read now. Um, anything that you learned from that, that, uh, you want to make sure people are aware of or want to root for? 

David Canfield: One thing I always like looking at with the ballots is just the sheer level of strategy that goes into, um, how many things you submit, where you submit, and I think you see front runners really sort of establishing, hopefully in their, in their minds or dominance. _Ted Lasso_ going for like a lot of writing and directing nominations, and meanwhile, a show like _Hacks_, continuing to play it safe as it did last year, which is what ultimately led to it winning, writing and directing because they didn't submit too much, so they didn't split votes. Um, so yeah, it's it's, to me, it's, it's always an interesting time because voters aren't really privy to that, but every single campaign is putting things on the ballot in such a way where they want to try to manipulate voters into voting for their stuff as much as possible. And with the Emmy ballot, there's more of that kind of strategizing that you can do. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. But you never know how much of it is gonna work. Like voters are gonna vote for who they vote for in the end, right?

David Canfield: Famously _Marvelous Mrs. Maisel_, after it won, basically swept for its first season, submitted a lot of episodes for its writing for its second season, and it was not nominated for writing at all. And so you could wonder if something similar will happen to _Ted Lasso_ this year. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. Um, well, in terms of personal FYC, I wanted to throw in for what feels like on some level of lost cause, but _Impeachment_, the FX series that was almost impossible to watch. Um, thanks to all kinds of weird streaming deals, uh, is eligible for this year's Emmy's. And I do think has at least a fantastic from Sarah Paulson to pay attention to if not the entire cast, as it goes down. And then maybe less of a lost cause, and you've heard me talk about this already, but I really worry people are gonna forget all about Anne Hathaway in _WeCrashed _and how great she was. I think Jared Letta was more attention stealing, um, and her work on that show I think was equally good and transformative. And who doesn't wanna see her nominated in the same category as her _Les Mis_ daughter, Amanda Seyfried for _The Dropout?_ So make my dreams come true, please. Rebecca, who do you wanna promote?

Rebecca Ford: Um, I think we talked a little bit about John Bernthal and _We Own the City_ last week, so I'm not gonna use that as my pick, but I just am gonna bring it up again one more time. Um, you know, I would love to see_ Abbott Elementary_ get a lot of nominations, not just for comedy series, but ideally like writing and maybe even, you know, some performances like Quinta Brunson, and Sheryl Lee Ralph are so good on that show. So it would be nice to see, um, some individual attention as well. 

Katey Rich: And it would be good to see networks make a strong showing, right. Just in terms of like the health and variety of what gets nominated for awards. I think the more sources you can draw from the better. 

Rebecca Ford: Yeah. A showing, any showing for network, I think it would be... 

David Canfield: A presence. Yeah. A nomination. 

Rebecca Ford: Yeah. And I do think _Abbott_ is deserving. So, uh, you know, here's hoping. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. Actually to that point, I would love to see Mandy Moore breakthrough for _This is Us_ one last time. Another one we talked about on this podcast, but, um, she is quite brilliant in the final season of the show and really reintroduced herself as an actor over the course of it.

Katey Rich: Yeah. I mean, at this point we can tell people who we are rooting for, uh, but they can also just like read vf.com and see who we've written about , which kind of gives it away.

Richard Lawson: Or listen to our interviews. 

Katey Rich: Or yeah, our interviews or previous episodes of the show. Um, it, you know, it does get to the point where you feel like you've been talking about Emmy's forever. Um, and we get to do it more after nominations come out on July 12th, so everyone can look forward to that.

Let's pivot to movies, uh, for a little bit, because it is the height of summer movie season. There's a lot of stuff coming out right now. I think as usual, like the actual Oscar buzz elements are pretty small, but it was hard not to notice, uh, at the box office, the way that _Lightyear_ performed, um, more or less like way under expectations, especially given that, uh, _Top Gun: Maverick_ is just like continuing to kill it at the box office. Um, Richard, I think you had a theory on maybe what happened there. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. I mean the soso reviews could be part of that because obviously critics guide the industry and we, we lead it, we change it. Um, no, I think it's because, uh, for the past couple years, uh, you know, I think pretty much the whole pandemic, the Disney strategy has been to release some things in theaters, but Pixar stuff goes to streaming right, to Disney Plus. And so then they have this kind of disruption of that, uh, new system for _Lightyear_, which is theatrical only for the time being. Uh, and I, my guess is that parents who facing down $60 plus spent on tickets were like, well, it'll be on the thing eventually, so let's just wait, you know, and, um, how much urgency was there to see this thing that is not a _Toy Story_ prequel. I guess it sort of is, it's the movie that Andy liked that made him wanna buy the toy. 

Katey Rich: What's not clear about this Richard? 

Richard Lawson: Except like you watch _Lightyear_ and you're like, why did a seven, eight year old boy, like this movie? Like it's about like regret and like grief and, it's like, and also there is a, a bigger character played by Keke Palmer who is like much closer to Andy in age and it's like, that's the action figure probably all the kids would want. Like buzz is kind of a jerk in the movie and like-

Rebecca Ford: Or the cat, I think everyone- 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. Or the cat, exactly. So the whole thing is confusing. It felt, it feels way out there on the capitalist, corporatist spectrum of Pixar's output. You know, _Cars 2_ is over there playing around with it. But I think that there are a lot of conspiring factors, but I really do think it was a simple thing of distribution where people were, have gotten now weaned on the Disney Plus model and were hesitant to go out to theaters, uh, to see a movie that they know they can watch at home. And they, you know, it's probably not that hard to not tell your six year old that the movies in theaters, right? Like, I don't know. You people on here have kids like are they watching a lot of TV that has ads for the movies and, you know, are they paying attention to release dates? Because I feel like if I were a parent, I would just be like, 'Lightyear? Oh no, no, that's not out yet.' I would just wait till it was on streaming.

Katey Rich: Uh, I'm gonna out myself as in, everyone's welcome to judge me, but happy meal toys gave the game away for us. Uh, there have _Lightyear_ happy meal toys, which were, um, very exciting. But I actually like happily took my kids to see _Lightyear_. I was pretty excited to like, take them both out as this big outing. Um, and we went to the Alamo Drafthouse, which is like a, a schlep and expensive as you were saying. Um, and it was fine. It was completely fine. I think they might have been just as happy, uh, seeing something that was at home and yeah, I think the quality of it, and it is funny because I think people think of kid movies is being kind of critic proof. Like people will just go see the thing because it's a thing to do. Um, but knowing that there is actually really good stuff at home too. Like I think the calculus gets a little bit different after the last two years of Pixar release strategies. 

Richard Lawson: Now, did your kids... was, was _Lightyear_, the character, a selling point for them or was it just like space movie that seems fun. 

Katey Rich: Um, I think, yeah, I think they both know who Buzz Lightyear is. Like the _Toy Story_ brand recognition is certainly there. Um, but I also think like they wanna go eat popcorn. Like, I think going to a place is what's exciting. Um, and because I like going to the movies, you know, I think I've passed that on to them. I went and saw _Top Gun: Maverick_ by myself and then saw _Lightyear_ again 12 hours later, which was a weird, like, they're kind of about the same character. Maverick and Buzz Lightyear are very similar. Um, so that was weird. Um, so yeah, I mean, I, I was glad that I went, but it does not surprise me at all that people are not feeling strongly compelled by this. And I hope that like, I mean, is the answer that they just start making Pixar movies exclusively theatrical again? They, they reverse that strategy? 

Richard Lawson: I guess? I mean, they spend so much money making these things. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. 

Richard Lawson: And they're not like, I think that the kind of outlook for streaming revenue has been very shaky of late. You know, with like Netflix stock dropping and all this stuff. And like, I think there is, maybe a quiet, or the, the beginnings of a quiet reassessment of that model. And _Lightyear,_ well, by no means of bomb. I mean, it made $50 million, you know, over the weekend. It, it just was estimated to make over 70. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. 

Richard Lawson: Um, it, it it's doing okay, but like, I would have to think that Disney Corporate would look at this and be like, you know, we used to make a lot of money in ticket sales, and so maybe we shouldn't really confuse where our movies are available. It's so strange coming from a company that is so jealously guarded it's vault, you know, all these years. ' We're only gonna release this movie for sale for this many weeks' or whatever. Like, like they used to have it on lock and now it's so blurred and I think they really just need to figure that out again. 

David Canfield: Yeah. And it was interesting to see, you know, part of the reason it didn't do well or, or part of the reason maybe the, that box office report wasn't so bleak was because _Jurassic World_ and especially _Top Gun_ are just doing so incredibly well and holding on so incredibly well. And so the story of theatrical right now is, and it feels nice post COVID that you can have a movie that disappointed and you can still have a report that's mostly optimistic about people going to the movies, even if one didn't fully click. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. As someone who's been playing that box office game, uh, every day, and there was a 2021 one a while ago and it was so grim, like unbelievably grim. I had already forgotten how bad it was, so that's a lot to put it into perspective for you. 

Richard Lawson: All the top five was just Russell Crow's _Unhinged._ 

Katey Rich: I think there was actually a Liam Neeson one out there that I I've already forgotten what it's called. Yeah, I'm sure someone will remember this. Well, Richard, uh, in, I guess in terms of family movies that maybe are a little bit more to look forward to, you inform me right before we started recording that, I guess I knew that there was a _Father of the Bride_ remake, but it was not super on my radar and apparently it's really good.

Richard Lawson: Well, let's temper expectation some. It's pretty good. I mean, it's way better than I thought it would be. 

Katey Rich: Okay. 

Richard Lawson: Um, this is a remake of, you know, well, there was a, it's a movie, a novel from the forties, and then they made a version in 1950 and then obviously '91 was the Steve Martin thing directed by Charles Shyer, co-written by Nancy Meyers. It was the start, one of the beginning phases of Nancy Meyers domination of a certain kind of cinema. Um, And we probably could have been good enough to leave the _Father of the Bride_ legacy there, but you know, nothing is.... everything can be rebooted these days. So _Father of the Bride_ has been. Um, the director is this, uh, guy Gary Alazraki, who is kind of a big deal in Mexico. Um, and I believe this is his first English language film, although there's a lot of Spanish in it. Uh, it takes place in Miami. It is about the wedding between the daughter of a prominent Cuban family in Miami and the son of a prominent Mexican family, um, And so there are cultural tensions there. There are some other tensions because the father of the titular _Father of the Bride_ played by Andy Garcia is, uh, not feeling too great about the wedding. It's really lively. Andy Garcia is terrific. The kids are appropriately shiny and sweet and all that, you know. And Gloria Stephan plays the Diane Keaton role. Uh, and it's, she's, I think it's her first acting on like movie thing since, um, _Music of the_ _Heart_ with Meryl Streep 20 something years ago. 

Katey Rich: Oh, wow.

Richard Lawson: And, um, The cast works really well. And, and the, but the, the most important thing is Gary Alazraki, the director, he, he makes it look fancy. And Nancy Myers-y and there's like a jazzy score that feels very classy, and the homes are beautiful, and the spreads of food are gorgeous. There's one scene that's a yacht party where they clearly use green screen and that kind of took me back to like the cheapo romcoms that are being put out these days. But otherwise, this new _Father of the Bride_ felt anything, but new, it felt like a movie from the early nineties that a studio spent a lot of money on and shot on location. And, and that alone, it was such a thrill to see unexpectedly on HBO Max one night, uh, this weekend that I just thought I had to mention it because, um, I was very skeptical about it because I just didn't think that this thing needed to be remade for a third time, but it really works. 

Katey Rich: Well, it's like what we were talking about with _In & Out_ last week, right? About a movie that just feels special because it looks good. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. And that goes a long way when you're dealing with like a comedy like this. Like half the battle in some ways is aesthetic and, and they really accomplish, uh, they win that part of it, uh, in this movie. 

David Canfield: I've uh I've I haven't seen the whole thing, um, but I was very struck by how familiar a lot of it was to me. And that's a compliment to the movie because I was expecting a, um, cliche ridden, not actually shot on location like you were saying, Richard, remake and instead, um, you know, I grew up in Miami, my husband is Cuban and he has a big Cuban family and there's a lot that you can look at, we could look at and say, oh yeah, this is, this is lining up. 

Katey Rich: What a great feeling. 

David Canfield: Yeah. And it was surprising. 

Richard Lawson: And, and the script, you know, it, it gets into some prickly tensions between Cuban Americans or Cuban exiles, immigrants, and other central American, Latin American people in a way that feels very specific and textured and will probably, uh, resonate that much more with people who have lived that experience, you know? But I like that the film doesn't shy away from some of the politics of that and, and Andy Garcia's character is this stubborn kind of, conservative in some ways, jerk, but also, you know, lovable dad and like they, they balance that really well. I mean, Garcia really, really is very good in the film. It's a great big star turn for him. He hasn't had something like this in a long time and yeah, I was just very pleasantly surprised. It's witty it, again, it looks great. So if you're looking for something to just pass a couple hours with, um, this is definitely something I would recommend. 

Katey Rich: It sounds like it kind of answers a question you said, like, why couldn't we leave _Father of the_ _Bride_ alone? Like if you make it about different people in a different culture and from a different angle, like it's kind of an eternal story if you keep finding fresh ways into it. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. And, and do it thoughtfully, you know? Yeah. Like, like actually, if you're gonna have it be about an, a different culture, go into that culture to some extent. You know, like really investigate it and tailor the story to fit that. Um, and I think they've done a good job of that. The dad, um, of, of the groom, you know, is this Mexican zillionaire who I think is maybe kind of supposed to be a Carlos Slim kind of figure. And, and, and, and they have, there's some funny stuff with that and it all just works really well. And I, I, I hope that other streamers/ studios, whatever, will see this and say, 'oh, so we can, we haven't lost the ability to do that.' Like we, we know we there, the, the template is still out there. Um, and I do think that had _Father of the Bride_ been released theatrically, I think it would've made money.

Rebecca Ford: So I got to pick the film for this week's pride Oscar flashback. And I was thinking about what to pick. I wanted to pick something, uh, focused on a woman and ideally a woman of color and immediately, um, _Pariah_ came to mind for me. You know, it's 2011 film. It was Dee Rees's feature directorial debut, and you know, we'll talk a little bit about what happened with it in Oscar and the Oscar situation. But this film, when I saw it, was just such a beautifully told story about a black lesbian woman sort of coming out and her experience just seemed, felt so authentic and full of empathy. And it obviously it's a semi autobiographical, um, story based on Dee Rees's own life and it was such a wonderful debut for her. So I thought that would be something that we could all re-watch and dig into. 

Katey Rich: Rebecca, were you, um, where were you in terms of your career in terms of movies covering, did you see _Pariah_ at Sundance? What do you remember about its release? 

Rebecca Ford: I didn't see it at Sundance. I don't, I don't get to see a lot of movies at Sundance back when I was going back then, unfortunately, because I was doing a lot of interviews. So I think I saw it after. And it was just one of those things where I hadn't heard that much about it other than some buzz from Sundance, but, and it just blew me away. You know, it just felt like I was stepping into this person's story in this world so easily for being, you know, a journey I haven't walked myself and, and just the way I thought it was told and shot was so beautiful.

Katey Rich: Yeah. It's like, you know, when you think of a Sundance movie, kind of the classic formats that re- occur at that festival a lot, like a coming of age story is a really familiar format for it. And we've talked about plenty of them before. But it's almost like what we were saying with _Father of_ the _Bride_, when you take a story from a different perspective, and there's certainly, uh, at this point, and even now, were not very many movies about a black lesbian coming of age story. It feels completely new and so fascinating to kind of, to go into the, the world of our main character Lee. David, what do you remember about when this movie came out?

David Canfield: I did not see this movie for quite some time. I, I saw it around _Mudbound_ actually, I missed it. Um, and I really, really loved _Mudbound_, um, which is why I watched it. And I I've ever feeling kind of bummed that I had missed out on like, the discovery moment of a really exciting filmmaker. Um, because it is such a great, beautiful first movie. Um, and what, what really struck me about it, um, maybe particularly in contrast to _Mudbound,_ which is a pretty dark movie, um, is it's, it's a really optimistic and sweet movie a lot of the time. Um, it doesn't shy away from, uh, the harsh reality and the pain of that experience, but it also really brims with a certain level of joy kind of like how we were talking about _BPM_ actually. And, and that really, that, that was just a really nice surprise because I think sometimes when you associate, um, a certain level of acclaim, breakout Sundance coming of age movie, it tends to take on that grimmer sheen, maybe and this one did not have that at all.

Katey Rich: Yeah. I mean, it's certainly a, a story about someone struggling about how she can't like be herself around her family. Um, but even though you've got her parents who are kinda these roadblocks to her happiness, they have this really lovely dinner table scene early on in the movie where they're kind of like joking and kidding each other around. And her relationship with her little sister is complicated, but there's a lot of love in there too. I love how it feels confident to hold those two things in one place. Um, and I think a weaker movie wouldn't have been able to do that both at the same time. 

David Canfield: Yeah, totally. 

Richard Lawson: There are so many things to recommend this film, you know, you think about it. Oh, it's this tiny, independent film that debuted at Sundance. It, it could have been very spare kind of a shaky cam realist kind of thing. And yet it looks gorgeous. 

Katey Rich: Oh my God. 

Richard Lawson: And, and, and like just has a real sense of visual, uh, and oral intent behind it, which is so exciting and the performances are so good. Adepero Oduye is incredible. Kim Wayans is amazing, uh, as, as the mom. But something I really like about it kind of in the text is that it starts after our lead has made first discoveries. She's already full in the process of exploring this part of herself. And, you know, having her friend get a strap on for her and all this kind of stuff. And I, I love that we meet someone, not in the very middle of their experience. It's still early days, but like, that it's a movie about someone who has figured this out about themselves and is just trying to reconcile with the world. Because so many movies we see about LGBTQ, uh, young people is about that kind of coming out in discovery. And this is a coming out film to some extent, but, but I, she's not coming out to herself. And I think that's a really interesting, um, way to, to frame this film and, and, and distinguishes it from a lot of its, you know, kin. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. Yeah. The way that this movie looks, it, it won the excellence in cinematography award at Sundance that year and it's Brad for young. And I didn't realize like how early in his career he was, because it really felt like after this movie he was just everywhere. Like his cinematography was kinda of instantly recognizable. And I feel like I haven't seen him on a feature in a long time and I'm wondering, uh, where he's been, because man, it is incredible to watch how his camera works.

Rebecca Ford: Yeah, I think, you know, this is like _BPM_. We're talking about a film who that didn't end up getting Oscar nominations, and, uh, you know, I was looking back at sort of headlines at the time about mentioning the snub of this film. And, and this was the same year, you know, _The Help_ got nominated and, and I think that's been a narrative of Oscar films overall that, you know, historical films that feature black stories that often have sort of a white savior narrative are usually more welcomed in by the Academy than sort of modern, uh, black stories. Uh, you know, there are of course exceptions. We'll talk about _Moonlight _in the future, but I think this, you know, back in 2012 was still dealing with a, a voting body that wasn't as diverse as it is now. And, um, I do think it is a shame, you know, that it didn't get more attention, any attention in the end from the Oscars. 

Katey Rich: Although Adepero Oduye did get a famous shoutout from Meryl Streep, uh, I think at the Golden Globes, uh, do, does this speech live in everyone's brains the way that does in mine? 

David Canfield: Yes. 

Katey Rich: Okay. Thank you. She, she pronounces Mia Vaco's name in a truly, uh, deranged fashion. Um, so yeah, I mean, because it really was that movie that season, I think people are like, why are we not talking about _Pariah_ more? And that still happens certainly, but I think you're right, Rebecca, that the diversity of the Academy now would make a really big difference.

David Canfield: Yeah, this was before even 12 years a slave won, so you did not have a film with a black cast that won Best Picture at this point. So the, the landscape was not friendly to, um, black filmmakers, especially on their first film. 

Richard Lawson: It's just such a bold and exciting statement of intent from a filmmaker. And it did seem to make some impact that year, like in the whatever circles we, we may travel in, you know, it, it had a life like, it, it, it, the movie definitely loomed somewhat large in a certain sector of the film loving world. And it, you know, it pushed Dee Rees onto to bigger, exciting things and she did _Bessie _for HBO, with Queen Latifa. A movie that I think deserves a revisit if people have seen it and kind of shut it off or, or haven't seen it because Queen Latifa is so good in that movie. You know, and then obviously _Mudbound_ was a huge deal for her. And then obviously she did go onto _The Last_ _Thing He Wanted_, which was a kind of debacle for Netflix. And I hope it hasn't really hobbled her career because rewatching _Pariah_ to talk about it with you guys like I just was reminded of, of just what an assured filmmaker she is and, and has such a, a granular gaze on things in a way that, you know, it would be easy to make this movie in a very, in a much more general way that seems to appeal to as many people as possible. But I, I think in keeping it specific, that's what makes it oddly universal. I wish that we would see more stuff like this that was really textured and, and intimate, um, and I hope we see that from Dee Rees in the future. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. This movie with, you know, both Dee Rees's direction and Adepero Oduye's performance and Bradford Young's cinematography, it just reminds you of these really basic things about movies. Like if a camera lingers on someone's face and lets you see them change and think through things like the, you know, a shot early on, um, of Lee on her way, home on the bus kind of changing clothes to return back to her home, like it just gives you such a glimpse into someone's world. And for so much of movie history, that camera has not lingered on a wide variety of people. Um, and the, the way that _Pariah_ just engages with all of its characters and really cares about them and what's going on in their heads, even the characters, like, um, like her mom who is sort of the, the villain in the end. Um, it's, it's such an empathetic movie for everybody. 

Richard Lawson: The scene on the bus is such good shorthand. It's, it's just a wordless scene where you're like, oh, so she doesn't live this life everywhere. You know, and it's not so subtle that you can't, you know, but it, but it, it just, it communicates so much with so little. And I think that's a hallmark of someone who really knows what they're doing behind the camera. 

Katey Rich: Can I share something-

David Canfield: Also a great, also a great dildos scene, sorry. 

Katey Rich: Again, the little sister, like I think an under really underrated part of the movie is how she's such a brat, but like, so, but sweet and caring. Uh, that's a, that's a lot of little sister energy there. 

David Canfield: I love, um, me saying also the dildo scene. And then for those who haven't seen the movie, we go to the sister. 

Richard Lawson: The dildo had nothing to do with the sister. 

Katey Rich: Well, no, the, the sisters I think appropriately squeaked out by the dildo. 

David Canfield: Yes, exactly. 

Katey Rich: That does it for this week's show, as we mentioned, uh, next week will be our final pride flashback. Uh, what a thrill these have been. We'll be talking about _Moonlight_. So please join us for that. In the meantime, you can find us at vanityfair.com and a ton of Emmy coverage as mentioned. Please catch up on all of it. Uh, you can find us on Twitter @littlegoldmen and on our own. I am @kateyrich and Richard? 

Richard Lawson: @rilaws. 

Katey Rich: And David? 

David Canfield: @davidcanfield97

Katey Rich: and Rebecca?

Rebecca Ford: @beccamford

Katey Rich: You can also sign up to text with us at join subtext.com/littlegoldmen or text 213-513-7180. I've enjoyed hearing from some of you about the _Leo Grande_ mask that we discussed last week. Our editor and producer is Brett Fuchs and this week's award for the best description of every streaming service in the month of April, goes to Richard Lawson.

Richard Lawson: Hello, Emmy voters.