Katey Rich: Hello, and welcome to _Little Gold Men_ the award season podcast from _Vanity Fair_. Intro: "It's such an honor to present this next award." "And here are the nominees." "And the Oscar goes to..." "And the Oscar goes to..." "And I can't deny the fact that you like me. Right now, you like me." "I'm the king of the world!" "There's a mistake, _Moonlight_, you guys won best picture." Katey Rich: I'm Katey Rich, and I'm here for today's interview episode with David Canfield. Hello, David. David Canfield: Hey, Katey. Katey Rich: Uh, David, thank you for joining me to introduce my own interview with Jenny Slate, who is the voice of _Marcel the Shell with Shoes On_, which was an internet sensation way back in 2010. Uh, so long ago that when I went back and watched the original short, uh, Marcel's using a flip phone to, uh, make phone calls. Um, and then they went and made a feature length, uh, movie version of it. And as, uh, Richard Lawson, our co-host wrote in his review, it is not this kind of like blast from the tween nostalgic pass, which you might expect. It's this really lovely, sad, thoughtful movie, uh, with Isabella Rossellini as a wise grandmother and Jenny Slate's really wonderful voice performance as this like little cute shell who makes fun jokes, but has a lot of depth to him too. Um, David, you were just saying you saw this film at the Telluride Film Festival and I, it sounds like it really fit in with the high brow selections of that festival more than you would expect from a movie based on a viral, short film. David Canfield: Yeah. I mean, I remember the talk of that festival was obviously all the incoming Oscar contenders and then _Marcel the Shell_ was sort of curiously on the, on the program list. And I don't think anyone knew what to expect from it. Even those who were really familiar with the short. I certainly had no idea what to expect and I was just so taken with it. It's so lovely. And Richard's review as you, you mentioned really perfectly points out everything that it avoided, that I was so scared of it succumbing to in terms of being too cutey or just fluffy it's, it's really got a lot of texture and, um, sweetness to it, uh, that feels really earned. And it is a great reminder that Jenny Slate is a phenomenal voice actor. Katey Rich: She really, I mean, her, her voice acting career is as robust as her screen acting career. I mean, she shows up absolutely everywhere. And as we talk about in this interview, you know, it took a long time to make this movie because stop motion just takes a long time. So it is not a pandemic movie at all, but when you watch it, and it's the story of the shell, who's like in his house, and he's kinda scared how the world has changed around him because the rest of his community has been kind of forcibly taken away from him, it just feels so resonant. And not in like a time capsule way, like a, it just kind of hits at this elemental fear we've all been having in a way that no one could have anticipated, but I think makes a movie even more powerful. David Canfield: Yeah, totally. Katey Rich: Um, so yeah, so you'll hear my conversation with Jenny Slate, who just, she tells me that she likes doing interviews, which like I kind of believe her, even though I don't know that anyone does because she's really just great to talk to and insightful and kind of thinks about the questions and about what she wants to do with her work and expresses it in a really interesting way. So let's hear that conversation with Jenny Slate. Uh, but first let's hear a word from our sponsor. The making of _Marcel the Shell with Shoes On_ has been seven year process I think you've said before? Jenny Slate: Yes, that's correct. Katey Rich: My question is how you stick with something that long and how it changes for you, and if you get to a point where you don't wanna do it anymore when something takes that long to make? Jenny Slate: I certainly don't get to a point where, where I don't wanna do something anymore. I, I guess, or I haven't, I haven't had that happen yet. I'm sure it could happen. But I haven't had that happen yet. It's so hard to answer that question because I'm not a person who's sort of like obsessed with follow through. There, there are ideas that I've had that just never made it past, you know, that weird paragraph that I wrote where I was like, the movie is about a guy that owns a piano factory, you know, and then it's just, I never did it. Katey Rich: I'd watch that. Jenny Slate: Um, I actually recently did find a treatment that I wrote for a movie about a man that owns the piano factory and I- Katey Rich: So it could still happen. Jenny Slate: I think it might be really good, you know, um, yeah, I, I actually like it. Um, but for this one, we stuck with it because it always felt good to do so. I think the reason why you might bail is when something feels wrong, it feels like you're really contorting your, yourself or like you're making some sort of strange emotional or artistic contortion just to kind of push it through. I am really a fan of saying like if this, if something doesn't work or if it doesn't feel right that you, you, you really shouldn't continue to go forward. It's really not that important to me to have a finished product. Katey Rich: Yeah. Jenny Slate: Um, just to have a bad experience, I'm, I'm really not into that. Maybe at the start of my career I, I probably would've been more and I certainly did do some things that felt like really painful, emotional fits for me, but I think we stuck with it because there were also so many different parts of the process. It was like taking a tour through this like interesting terrain of the imagination and through, you know, like different areas of how to do your work. And also a lot of that was stuff that I, you know, I'm, I can't take any credit for the animation. I like how it is. Um, I'm glad it's there. I think it's absolutely perfect, but that's Kirsten Lepore and Dean Fleischer-Camp and all of the artists that work with them. Katey Rich: Yeah. Wait, you men- you mentioned Kirsten Lepore and I wanted to get into this later, but I didn't realize she's married to Daniel Kwan. Jenny Slate: Yes. Katey Rich: And that's how, that's how the _Everything Everywhere All At Once_ connection happened, which I was just so like what a, like, family feeling there is between those two movies. Jenny Slate: Yeah, it is. It is a nice family feeling and we're, we're both A24 movies. Katey Rich: Yeah. Jenny Slate: Yeah. I met Daniel Kwan and Daniel Scheinert, actually I first met them because I made a campaign for them with, for the GAP. Katey Rich: Oh. Jenny Slate: Um, with Paul Dano. Yeah and that's when I met them. And then- Katey Rich: Oh, because of him, because of _Swiss Army Man_, like that he was connected to them, okay. Jenny Slate: Yeah, that was quite a while ago. And then, it felt like these relationships were all separate. Like Dean knew Kirsten, and we knew that we wanted her to be the one we, we had watched her, um, short films and they're just so beautiful and funny. And, and they really, really are just so unique. And we were like, well, gosh, we should ask Kirsten. I hope she would. I hope she would. And then we found, I think, I didn't know that they were partners. Yeah. Katey Rich: Yeah. Yeah. I guess that happens in Hollywood a lot where like you meet someone in one place and you're like, wait, you're here. And then you're with this, this person. And it's not that big an industry in the end. Jenny Slate: Yeah. I mean, now we're all friends. I brought my baby over to play with their baby, which was very fun. Katey Rich: Fun. Um, well, so, so the, I mean, we were talking before we started recording about making independent film where you're like kind of deep- thrown in the deep end on every single part of the process. So what kind of education was it for you on this one in particular? You've made animated movies. You haven't made animated movies quite like this one. Like what, what did you learn in this seven year process about making a movie like this? Jenny Slate: I don't know that there's ever been a movie made with this particular process before. I, I think that Dean really invented a lot. Like an invent, an invention of a type of filmmaking I think occurred here. I think that I, I learned that I like being in the process probably more than I like showing everybody what it is. Although I weirdly do en- like I enjoy being interviewed. I really like it. Katey Rich: I'm so glad, what a relief. Jenny Slate: And yeah, I'm chatty. I, I also find that, like, I, I solve things for myself. I, you know, I solve, um, I solve things about my own current development or I'm like, I look back and actually have to like focus up on like, what did happen here? Um, but I think that I learned that I am interested in adding depth wherever I can. And I know that Dean really cares about that too, but I just don't think I had ever really fully gotten that chance. But I think because Marcel, you know, is a seven year process, I can see how learning that right at the start, at the start of the seven years when we were really starting to do our first recording, that I was like, I like this the most. This thing that is a character that does, does so much, does want to be entertaining. But that is all about sort of like in an, in a non grandiose way, showing the heart of a truth of a thing. And I can see how that affected my standup. I can see how it really affected my writing, you know, in my book, _Little Weirds,_ like I, I can see the, the performer who plays Marcel and who adds to the improv there in my... in the writing that came after. And it just so happens that those pieces of work for me came out before this movie just because it took so long. Katey Rich: Yeah. Jenny Slate: For us to finish this. Katey Rich: Is that what you mean by adding depth where you can about like tapping into, I guess the character of Marcel or what does that mean when you say you learn that you like to add depth where you can? Jenny Slate: Yeah. I guess not add depth, but show that it exists. Because a character like Marcel could just be really cute, you know? And he could just sort of be a just kind of like a laugh riot of one liners, you know, and of course those are really important. And in fact they're really, really important because otherwise it would be too heavy, you know? It's like you think of it like a, like a dish, like there's just so many different things in there that make it like the perfect taste. And I think that I just used to feel a lot more like, well, it's either drama or it's comedy or it's comedy, but it's dark comedy. You know, it's like a little bit tough. Like we're being a little dangerous and I would feel like that's the only place for emotions that are in the, the color palette of sorrow or loneliness. Um, and it, I'm just such a, I think I'm such a bouncy person, but I feel of course, because I'm alive. But I feel my shadow, I live with it. Of course I do. I have a psyche, but when I suffer the most is when I can't integrate it into my daily life. And when I say like, I'll just deal with this at the end of my day when I have a glass of wine. That is not the way for me and what I'm trying to show in the things that I create are not my deepest, darkest secrets or whatever, but the fact that rather than having some strange nightmare, like cave, that generally, I actually just have these, these points that are studded throughout my day where I feel my feelings hurt or where I feel doubt or where I feel like a stunning loneliness like out of nowhere. You know, like, uh, it it's all there and I, I just wanna show that. And I think, I think we did show that in Marcel. That you can keep living and be trying to have a good life and also be really aware that, um, a large portion of what made you, you and what was your security fell away. Katey Rich: Yeah. I mean, I know you guys worked on this long pre pandemic, but the, the parallels of the movie to the, you know, experience in being locked down, like feel really strong now. And I'm sure that's something you thought of in that point when we were all, uh, like little Marcel's in our house. Did, did the, did the pandemic change the way that you think about that specifically about, you know, letting your happiness and your sadness exists alongside each other? I think it, it kind of changed the way a lot of us think about that specifically. Jenny Slate: I think so too. I mean, you know, the fact is for this film that the audio play was locked probably four years ago. I, I might be a little bit off, but- Katey Rich: Pre pandemic. Jenny Slate: Way pre pandemic. Katey Rich: Yeah. Jenny Slate: Um, and so, yeah, well the pandemic really rearranged my thinking in a lot of ways. For example, a lot of people once we were isolated from each other, it was all about well, I can still put all my stuff on social media and I can connect that way. And I very quickly found that to be not the way for me to like most usefully represent myself. Um, and all that also was like, when I was newly pregnant. Katey Rich: Yeah. Jenny Slate: And I had to go into like a much more sort of Marcellian isolation of like, I mean, luckily I, you know, I was with my husband, um, I wasn't without my, my, you know, he's for me like the center of my familial life and now, now my daughter, but I had to do that thing where like, you don't have a microphone. You can't go up on stage and tell 200 people how you feel about exactly what happened today. Like that's... I've been joking about it on stage now, but like, that's how I used to live. You know? Katey Rich: That's how you processed what was going on in your brain? Jenny Slate: Yeah. I would process my whole emotional life through a microphone to 200 strangers and then I'd be like, it's interesting that I said that on stage because I really mean it and then I would go to therapy, you know. And instead I just, like, I had to lock all of that down and like, it's not fun for the people you live with to be your audience. Katey Rich: Yeah. Jenny Slate: They don't like that. You know, like after a while, like they, they, they want, you know, an honest interaction. I don't think anybody likes something that's like super one sided except for a therapist, but you pay them. Katey Rich: Yeah. It's important. Jenny Slate: Yeah. So I don't know, whatever. It- all, I mean to say, is it, it changed a lot for me, but I think, I think that the, the separateness that we're trying to show in Marcel is one that we, that Dean and I both in different ways we're dealing with before, uh, the pandemic began, and in general is something that is always there. Like I was saying last night, there's, there's always the hope for connection for most of us. You know, unless you're really, really a hermit. Like most of us hope to be a part of something with other people. But because that exists, it also brings about its opposite, which is isolation. And so you live with that and it feels really, really scary when you were kind of like maybe slightly aware, like, what if I were alone? You're aware of that. That what if. And for Marcel, like that happens to him and it's not in his control and yeah. That could happen at any time to anyone. I think that's what we were interested in, or one of the things. Katey Rich: Well, the way that social media becomes part of that too, where it's this like, you know, life raft thrown out for connection and it doesn't turn into that. It, it made me think a lot about how social media has changed since 2010 with the first Marcel where he's like sitting on a flip phone, which I I've forgotten until I went back and watched it. Jenny Slate: Yeah, he's on a flip phone. Katey Rich: I could not believe it was that long ago. Yeah. Um, but did, did you guys update. It's in terms of how it dealt with social media as years went on, or was that sentiment really the same back in 2010, about how social media seems like it's gonna connect you, but doesn't. Jenny Slate: I think it was the same back then, and I think part of that comes from our own curiosity with how people, um, felt really connected to Marcel and like behaved towards the character. Um, there's some of that in, in the film. Um, but I also think that our purpose isn't to like shame anyone or be like, 'everyone's been misbehaving,' you know? Katey Rich: Sure. Jenny Slate: Um, and I like that it's that I like where we place it in terms of commenting on what can potentially happen online and how it's such a mixture of feelings when it happens. Like we wouldn't be able to make this movie if the internet didn't exist, but you know, it's also the same internet where Donald Trump spread misinformation. And, um, it is, you know, it's all one big space with a lot of different types of stuff going on in it. And also there's a lot of repetitive, but unconscious behavior happening. And, um, and the people who are at their computers are, are real people. And they, you know, it's, it's just interesting to, to take a look at. But I, I like where we laid it down. I don't think we were really interested in like scalding anyone. Katey Rich: Yeah. Well like the main figure you have from the outside world pay attention becomes Lesley Stahl who's like this unteachable person. You can't be mad at Lesley Stahl at all. Jenny Slate: No, mm-hmm. Katey Rich: I mean, you've been back on social media. I think you had been away for a while, coming back to promote this movie. How's it feel? Do you, are you glad to be back? Are you ready to run away? Jenny Slate: Um, I think it's really fun. I mean, you know, for the most part I'm not online. I'm I live in Massachusetts. I am there in a non fancy outfit with my husband and daughter. And so of course it's fun to like borrow fancy clothes and just be like I exist. You know, like, I wasn't sure if that happened when I, you know, exploded my vagina 18 months ago. I was like, I think I'll, uh, wear sweatpants for the rest of my life, which is also very fun. And I like that as well. Um, but yeah, I, I think it's fun. I understand why it's important. Um, I think I'm rather lucky that it, it feels like the people I encounter on the internet are, are fairly kind to me. And I think it's really fun, but I engage with it in a different way than I did like four years ago, because it's just not where my needs lie. Like other than needing people to see the film, I'm like, I feel like it was different for me when, uh, you know, before I met my husband and I was like single. I think I noticed, I just, I didn't really like it. I didn't really like what I, um, without paying attention to was rather, as they say thirsty for, and I think anybody can be that way. But there's no need for me anymore to, to like send a signal. Katey Rich: Yeah. Jenny Slate: And more, I just wanna say, like, I exist out here as a creative person. I am making this work and I so dearly, dearly want people to receive it because I actually believe in its worth and yeah. So that's how I feel better. Katey Rich: It's, it's sending a signal on behalf of something different than it used to be. Jenny Slate: Yeah. It's like, you know, flying a flag. Katey Rich: Yeah. Jenny Slate: It's, you know, it's just like, this is here. This is here. This is here. If you want it, if you want it, _Marcel the Shell_ is there or my book is there. And, um... Katey Rich: But you yourself are something separate and at home in sweatpants. Jenny Slate: For, for the most part. I mean, I'm, and also like, I try really hard actually to put on an outfit every day. Um, just because I think it's, I think it's a nice exercise and I've, um, I joke a lot about being constantly in sweatpants, but really I try to wait till the end of the day. Katey Rich: Yeah, it's a treat at the end of the day. Jenny Slate: Yeah. Yeah. I, I try hard and, and my husband's really good at like getting dressed every day. So I, I just wanna match that. Um, I think it's a nice way to be and, um, but I, I just as someone who so deeply needs encouragement and validation, and I don't, I just don't think I'll change. I, I don't think I'll ever be someone who doesn't need a response. I think that's why I do stand up. I think it's why I so joyfully and so eagerly perform, but there are questions to ask. You know, within that inclination or that need. I'm very much over being ashamed of it, but just because I don't feel ashamed of it anymore doesn't mean that I'm also entitled to just like demand it and like, just like eek it out from wherever I can get it. I would really rather get healthy encouragement and validation from people that I'm in daily relationships with. And I think that's how I'm able to hold onto it because the other thing that I found is like, you know, I just felt like there was like a colander in my own image of myself. Like everything was just draining out. I, I couldn't really hold it. Katey Rich: Yeah. Jenny Slate: So I just want like something that I can keep. Katey Rich: I was thinking about that aspect of, you know, returning out in the world and being seen, because um, you brought Marcel to Telluride, which for so many people who I knew who went were just like, we're here and it's a party and we can be inside and everyone tests- like it was just this real like return. And there's this picture of viewing Kenneth Branagh chatting on the street in Telluride, but I was just so happy to find the two of you together. What was that- what did you guys talk about? Or what, what was Telluride like in general? Jenny Slate: Oh, I mean, Telluride is like such a nice festival to go to because it, it is a festival that genuinely cares about the films and where the prestige lies is like actually in the art. And I absolutely, it was the perfect way for me to kind of just enter back into a public space. Because yeah, also, you know, my, my still my daughter hasn't been able to be vaccinated and I, you know, I've been- Katey Rich: Soon though. Jenny Slate: Really, really soon though. Very soon. Katey Rich: I got my three year olds appointment next week. I'm psyched. Jenny Slate: Yeah. It's super exciting. but then it was like, okay. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, it was really, I don't know, I felt really proud in terms of meeting Kenneth Branagh, I am a huge fan and, um, happened to just, I just don't like to be late, so I, they take kind of what they call a class photo of all of the people at- Katey Rich: Oh yeah. I love that picture ride every year. Jenny Slate: And, um, I just was like, I don't wanna be late. And I was one of the first people that arrived and Kenneth Branagh was like the other person there, and I was like, oh, oh. I mean, I think I look normal in the picture as normal- Katey Rich: You look amazing. Your hair looks fantastic in that picture. Jenny Slate: I think so, too. And in fact, I saw that picture and I was like, oh man, why did I just cut my hair? It was fine. Um, but, um, yeah, I, I wish I hadn't now I'm I, that picture just- other than being like, I can't believe Kenneth Branagh like took a picture with me, I can't believe he knows I exist, I also was like, oh man, I gotta remember when I have really long hair that I should not always cut it because I get impatient. Cause then I just, now I just kinda have to grow it for the next two years. But, um, he was incredibly kind to me and I was just, you know, I, I was just trying to be normal. Um, I was just trying to be normal and- Katey Rich: He's very handsome. It seems hard. Jenny Slate: He's just everything about him. Looks good. Sounds good. He's chic. He's intelligent. He's an incredible actor. He's incredible director. Truly I was just trying to be normal and then we sat down... they were like, it's time to sit down. And I was like, oh no, no, I, I don't, I can't be in the center of the picture sitting next to Kenneth Branagh. People will think I like tried to be here, but I swear I was just trying to not be late. Katey Rich: Are you in? I need to go look at the photo now. Are you in the center? Jenny Slate: Well, here's what happened. I'm there and I was sitting next to him, but then someone was trying to sit down. I was so focused on Kenneth Branagh that I didn't see who was trying to sit down. But I, I was like, whoever wants to sit in between us, they certainly can. I'm not trying to hog this wonderful legend. I, I, in fact, I should probably get away from him before he tells me to get away from him. Like, I was like, you know, you got to know when to leave. So I, I was like, oh, and I said something like, let me just move my big butt, and I said, let me just move my big buuuuu and I looked up and it was Helen Mirren, and I was like, this could not get worse. Like in terms of just my own image of myself just being this, you know, whatever. And so I moved over and I believe I'm kind of, I'm sort of like a little bit behind Helen Mirren, because I was kind of like sort of falling off the bench and and next to maybe Hailey Bennett. I, I, I, I really generally was like someone take a picture of this because no one will ever believe that it happened. Katey Rich: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So now we all the evidence is there forever. Jenny Slate: Yeah. But you what now I've kinda like... I don't know, I never give it to myself. I never like really say, you know, you deserve to be here and maybe that's just not a conversation that means much to me because what I'm always trying to get to is the next moment to be able to do my work, you know? And so maybe that's like when I have an audition, you know, for like a movie with a really good director or something like that, I do tell myself I deserve to be there and I, I, I like prefer to audition. Not that I won't accept an offer. Katey Rich: Audition only. Jenny Slate: I can like, see my, my agents just, um, getting so upset over there at CAA right now. They're like, did Jenny just say to _Vanity Fair_ that she's auditioned only. Um, but I, no, I'm I'm but I just like earning it. I think there's a part of me that always feels like I need to know that I, that I earned it. Katey Rich: That does it for today's interview episode. Uh, we'll have our Thursday episode, including a book club installment, uh, and the rest of the news brought to you by David and Richard. Uh, in the meantime, find us at vanityfair.com or on Twitter @littlegoldmen. And on our own, I'm @kateyrich and David? David Canfield: @davidcanfield97. Katey Rich: You also text us at joinsubtext.com/littlegoldmen, or text 213-513-7215. Our editor and producer is Brett Fuchs.