Prince Charles [Archival Audio]: My Lords and members of the House of Commons, Her Majesty's government's priority is to grow and strengthen the economy and help ease the cost of living for families. Her Majesty's government will level up opportunity in all parts of the country and supporting more people into work. 

Katie Nicholl: This is Prince Charles opening Parliament in May. He wasn't wearing the Imperial Crown because he's not yet King. But he was carrying out one of the most important constitutional roles of monarchy because the Queen was unable to attend. 

Erin Vanderhoof: I know the optics of this moment were particularly confusing for Americans. Charles actually went viral because of the incongruity of a man on a gilded throne lamenting the high cost of living. But understanding the importance of the state opening of parliament and the fact that it was Prince Charles giving the central speech instead of the Queen might help explain what was going on.

Katie Nicholl: So, Erin, as we've discussed previously, the monarch is not political, but as Head of State, it is their duty to open parliament and outline the legislation of the government of the day. So Queen Elizabeth has carried out this duty, which spans centuries for the past 70 years and she's only ever missed it twice before; when she was pregnant with Prince Andrew and Prince Edward. Now, it is a pretty long and taxing ceremony that requires the monarch to be dressed in heavy ceremonial robes in addition to the very heavy Imperial State Crown. So the ceremony has been adapted in recent years to accommodate our aging monarch. For example, she hasn't worn the robes or the crown, but this year, because of these mobility issues, she was actually unable to attend and that was really significant. 

Erin Vanderhoof: About five years ago, the Queen said that wearing the crown was really hard on the neck. And now she's 96 years old. The duty she was able to carry up before with ease are just getting more and more difficult for her. So Charles, with Camilla and William by his side, stepped up to fill her place. The speech is actually written by members of parliament. 

Prince Charles [Archival Audio]: In these challenging times, Her Majesty's government will play a leading role in defending democracy and freedom across the world. Including continuing to support the people of Ukraine. Her Majesty's government will continue to seize the opportunities of the United Kingdom's to departure from the European Union to support economic growth. 

Katie Nicholl: I think the reality is we are seeing a handover of power. The Queen is now in the twilight years of her reign and Charles, who is the longest serving Prince of Wales in history, is getting ever closer to the throne. That image of him sitting side by side to the Imperial Crown at the state opening was a reminder that he really is very close to becoming King. In the not too distant future, he will finally be put to the test. 

Erin Vanderhoof: Anyone who is familiar with the story of the Windsor's knows the Charles is perhaps the most misunderstood member of the clan and he just hasn't been able to shake his past. So it's easy to base your opinion of him on what we see in _The Crown,_ but I think he's a far more complex man. 

Katie Nicholl: I do too, Erin, and I think in order to better understand him and how he stands to lead in the future, we're going to have to dig deeper into his story. In our final episode of _Dynasty:_ _The_ _Windsors,_ we'll explore Charles as a son, a father, a husband, and a King in waiting. 

Erin Vanderhoof: Once he ascends to the throne, will he be able to inspire the level of devotion his mother has maintained for her entire reign? And as the second Elizabethan age comes to a close, what can we anticipate for the Windsors as an institution? As countries exit the Commonwealth, and anti-monarchist movement grows and the family itself remains deeply divided. 

Katie Nicholl: In this episode, we'll be joined by former _Vanity Fair_ Editor in Chief, Tina Brown, Royal's writer, Omid Scobie, financial expert, Euan Rellie, _Vanity Fair_ contributor, James Reginato, and writer and cultural critic, Shon Faye. From _Vanity Fair_, this is _Dynasty: the Windsors. _

Erin Vanderhoof: Episode 10, "Heavy Is the Head: Prince Charles’s Rocky Ascent."

Prince Charles has been a very unique character from the beginning, growing up in a context that wasn't quite right for him. And at every single turn, the monarchy's timing was inconvenient to say the least. 

Katie Nicholl: Charles's grandfather George VI died at the age of 56, which meant that Elizabeth ascended to the throne when he was just three. She had to lead a country and the Commonwealth, learning on the job whilst also being a young mother.

Tina Brown: He was very Edwardian in a sense in his background. There's a sad scene when he knocks on the Queen's door when he's about five and asks her to play. You know, and she says to him, 'oh, I do so wish I could.' 

Katie Nicholl: This is Tina Brown author of _The Palace Papers_. 

Tina Brown: Work life balance wasn't on the, in the script, in the fifties for the Queen. Not at all. So she had a pretty difficult, challenging job. Her husband who was very much a kind of old fashioned alpha man and the children in a way were raised in that way, and it's been a struggle for Charles. And I do feel sorry for Charles. I think he had a pretty rough childhood, very lonely. 

Erin Vanderhoof: Charles was the first heir to be formally educated outside of the palace. Previously, monarchs in waiting learned at home. He went to Gordonstoun, a remote independent school in Northeast Scotland. In videos, it looks like a cross between a summer camp and _Game of Thrones_. It was founded by Kurt Hahn, a famous progressive educator on the principal that sportsmanship, solitude, and struggle in the outdoors will develop a child's character. So it's like taking privileged kids and putting them in an artificially difficult environment. 

Katie Nicholl: But Charles was miserable. He was a very sensitive little boy and didn't wanna be starting his own fires and testing himself against the Scottish Highlands. Tina Brown again. 

Tina Brown: It was at the time anyway, a very Spartan environment miles from home, cold, uh, where he was very bullied, very teased, and he had a miserable childhood. He had a miserable school days, you know, and he still talks about that with sort of, it was very scarring I think that's- those school days for Charles.

Katie Nicholl: It was his father's idea to send him to Gordonstoun. Prince Philip had attended and loved it, and Princess Anne sent her children there and they also loved it. But it wasn't for Charles and when term ended home life, wasn't always easy. 

Tina Brown: Well, his relationship with his mother had a low emotional temperature. You know, they were not each other's confidants. I mean, he wasn't gonna take marital advice from his mother. Uh, the Queen Mother was his confidant. 

Katie Nicholl: Like many children from wealthy families, Charles was raised by a nanny, his beloved Mabel Anderson. But the Queen Mother was also hugely influential in the shaping of his childhood. Charles adored his grandmother. When she doted on him, spoiling him in a way that his parents couldn't. He once described her as the most magical grandmother you could possibly have. She indulged his whims, educating him about art, music, history, and theater, which he took a great interest in. He took up acting while he was a student at Cambridge. 

Erin Vanderhoof: But duty called, and his grandmother was also crucial in guiding and educating him about his role and what that would entail. This guidance was critical because soon it would be time for him to turn over his day to day work to the needs and the desires of the monarchy.

Reporter [Archival Audio]: Just over two hours to go now to the investiture of the Prince of Wales. A ceremony first foreshadowed by the Queen when she created her eldest son, Prince of Wales, 11 years ago and which has been in preparation ever since. A rare and notable occasion for Britain and the Commonwealth and shared today through television with much of the rest of the world. This afternoon...

Erin Vanderhoof: This was July 1st, 1969, the day of Prince Charles's investiture, which is the ceremony where he was formally named Prince of Wales in Earl of Chester. It was his introduction to the world and the assumption of his royal duties. He was 20 years.

Katie Nicholl: In a ceremony that was broadcast around the world, Charles was crowned in an ornate service we're unlikely to see again. I'm told William's investiture when he's made Prince of Wales is likely to be more scaled back and less antiquated. But for Charles, there was plenty of pomp and pageantry. In this ceremony, Charles's proceeded by a long procession, including members of the local community in North Wales, the Prime Minister, Harold Wilson, and the lifeguards, the most senior regiment in the British Army. Charles appeared in ceremonial robes and a horse-drawn carriage and he was met with cheers as he passed through the town. He honored the people of Wales by speaking in Welsh and laid out what he planned to do in his new role. 

Erin Vanderhoof: He took a summer course in the Welsh language to do this and the crowd was reportedly kind of unimpressed with his pronunciation. Fortunately for him, he made his main points in the speech in English. 

Prince Charles [Archival Audio]: It is indeed my firm intention to associate myself in word and deed with as much of the life of the principality as possible. And what a principality. I know that social conditions have changed since 50 years ago, and of course are still changing. The demands on a Prince of Wales have altered. But I am determined to serve and to try as best I can to live up to those demands, whatever they might be in the rather uncertain future.

Katie Nicholl: So just like his mother who promised to serve the people of the Commonwealth as a 21 year old Princess, here was Charles pledging his life to the service of his future subjects. And while it has been a long wait, he's turned the waiting to his advantage. Charles will come to the throne with more experience than any other heir in recent history.

Erin Vanderhoof: That experience started early. After receiving training in the Royal Air Force, Charles followed in the tradition of his father, grandfather, and two of his great grandfathers by joining the Navy in September of 1971. His time as an enlistee wasn't entirely successful. A self-described general inability to cope well with numbers meant that he struggled as a navigator to the point that the Naval secretary even joked about it. In a 1971 memo, Sir Iwan Rakes wrote, "the thought of court marshaling the heir to the throne for a navigational error is good nightmare material."

Katie Nicholl: Well, after he finished his military service in 1976, Charles used his Navy severance of 7,400 pounds, which is roughly 40,000 pounds today to fund a number of community initiatives. Now this wasn't the traditional ribbon cutting work of the royals, but these early initiatives were important to Charles and the founding projects of the Prince's Trust, which is now his legacy. And the core issues that he focused on all those years ago like education, environmental sustainability, and historical architecture, still form the focus of his work today. 

Erin Vanderhoof: Charles was a sensitive person who loved art literature and spirituality, yet he spent his twenties sort of glumly going through the military because that's what he was told to do. I always wonder what kind of person he would be now if he had gotten to explore his real interests. Maybe get a PhD in anthropology. Starting his charity though meant he was finally doing the work that really mattered to him. But by this point he was nearing 30 and the clock was ticking. Of course, there was another duty on the checklist for him. Perhaps the most important one of his life so far; marrying and producing an heir to the throne. 

Katie Nicholl: But this wasn't so simple. Charles couldn't just go out and date any regular girl he liked. The person he married would end up with the title of Queen, and that person had to meet several requirements. She had to come from an aristocratic background and not to be previously married. 

Erin Vanderhoof: There is one other suggestion that is pretty outdated now. And I will put it in the terms that his great uncle Lord Mountbatten used when he described it to Charles in a letter. 'I think it is disturbing for women to have experiences if they have to remain on a pedestal after marriage.' So, Katie, is he essentially suggesting that it would be easier for a woman to put up with being adored by the British public and a devoted supporter of a royal spouse if she's a virgin before her wedding night? 

Katie Nicholl: I think that is what he's suggesting, but of course those ridiculous standards made finding a match really quite difficult for Charles. Here's Tina Brown again. 

Tina Brown: His girls in his set in the thirties were not girls who were obviously gonna be girls who were virgins at that point. It was a bit like it was as hard as finding, you know, the loch ness monster, frankly. To find a virgin of 30, you know, who was of marriageable status. So there was a, there was a, a problem, you know, how to find somebody that fit the bill.

Katie Nicholl: In the same letter from his uncle, Lord Mountbatten had very different advice for men before marriage, which included a lot of experience. He apparently encouraged Charles to sew his wild oats and date as much as he could before settling down, which it appears he did. He's reported to have dated several high society girls, including Camilla Parker Bowles, of course his now wife, who is the daughter of an army major. And there were other girls too, often from aristocratic roots. The press, even dubbed these girls 'Charlie's Angels.' but despite developing real feelings for the women he dated, like Camilla, if they didn't meet the bar, their relationship could never be allowed to develop. 

Erin Vanderhoof: His dilemma becomes clearer when you think of the people who were giving Charles' advice on romance, like his grandmother to the Queen Mother and his great uncle Lord Mountbatten. They were both born in the year 1900 and were of a completely different era. And they were not convinced that love was necessary for a successful royal marriage. It was more important for the monarchs consort to be supportive, committed, and morally righteous. And most importantly, to be able to perform their royal duties without complaint. Maybe that's what Charles saw in Diana? Here is a couple in their engagement interview for the BBC at Buckingham Palace.

BBC [Archival Audio]: And what did you, what did you think then? What was your instant impression both of you? What did you think about Lady Diana when you met her? 

Prince Charles [Archival Audio]: Well, I remember thinking what a very jolly and amusing and, and attractive 16 year old she was. And I mean great fun and bouncy and full of life and everything. And, um, um, I didn't know what you thought of me? 

Princess Diana [Archival Audio]: Pretty amazing.

BBC [Archival Audio]: Did it cross either of your minds that, um, in three years time you would be announcing your engagement? Thinking of getting married? 

Princess Diana [Archival Audio]: No. 

Prince Charles [Archival Audio]: No, not at all. 

Katie Nicholl: But an engagement happened despite their age gap, she was 20 and he was 32 when they were married. And Charles was said to have been completely charmed by Diana. He found her beautiful, and in her, he saw a partner who could be entirely devoted to him. And Diana saw security in Charles. Here's Tina Brown again. 

Tina Brown: One of the stories that always sticks in my mind is how on the eve of their engagement announcement, when she was staying with the night with the Queen Mother, there was a bicycle in the hall and the Queen's steward told me that she rode around the foyer of the, uh, of the Queen Mother's house, ringing her bicycle bell and saying, 'I'm going to marry the Prince of Wales. I'm going to marry the Prince of Wales.' And it was like a child. I mean, this is the sort of thing that a 12 year old would do. And it was very poignant, uh, to me that she really was a lamb to the slaughter. She didn't know what was awaiting her obviously. And she saw herself as marrying the Prince of her dreams. And a lot of Charles' appeal to her was that she thought, you know, it would be forever and ever. 

Katie Nicholl: But as we know, they would not remain together. Diana didn't turn out to be the simple differential partner Charles had expected. And not only that, I don't think Charles was capable of predicting how charmed the rest of the world would be by his dazzling wife. She became a global superstar, one of the most famous women in the world. And we have to remember that wasn't the plan. Charles' partner was intended to be a reflection of him, not to eclipse him entirely. And of course, the circumstances of their split. His admission of adultery and the subsequent battle of the Wales's the press, soured Charles to the public. And Diana's tragic death in 1997, solidified her legacy, freezing her in time. 

Tina Brown: Charles really has had like 30 years of nearly PTSD about Diana. I mean, for him, he feels- has felt, that he'll never get out from under the opprobrium of being the husband who failed her. Of being blamed essentially, in a way, for her death. Because for years, he felt so tormented by it that he just couldn't deal with it and used to have to talk endlessly about how unfair it was that he was always the one who was blamed when actually she'd been very difficult to be married to. But people didn't write that. He felt that he was always cast, uh, as the person who'd been unfaithful, et cetera, but you know, Diana also had lovers. And Diana, you know, had her own really unsettling difficulties herself. 

Erin Vanderhoof: Charles has been struggling to get out from under Diana's shadows ever since her passing. And I don't envy him. But there is something I think he learned from his experience. In the past 20 years, Charles has started to do things a little differently, and it's really allowed us to see a different side of him. For one, he has made his relationship with Camilla a priority in his life, which we have to acknowledge was really risky for him to do.

Tina Brown: She's funny, you know, she makes him laugh. That's a huge thing for Charles. I mean, she really makes him laugh. I mean, when they go on their, their tours together, you can see the two of them just screaming with laughter, having the kind of fun that Philip and Elizabeth had actually. And one of the things that I learned writing _The Palace Papers_ was just how, uh, really marital love is, is been so critical to the success of of the monarchy and the failure of the monarchy. 

Erin Vanderhoof: As much as duty is important, I think Charles realized that he can't be miserable and do his job well. So we figured out how to fulfill his role while including the woman that he loves. And now we're gonna have a divorced and remarried Head of the Church of England. Who could have anticipated that 70 years ago? He's turned decades worth of challenges into an example of the change he wants to bring to the monarchy. 

Katie Nicholl: He is going to be his own King and he will do things differently to the Queen. I think he's very aware that the monarchy has to modernize in order to survive. 

James Reginato: I think Charles has actually been very misunderstood. Part of it is, you know, he has a certain formality that I think people mistake for being sort of old fashioned, but I think he's actually been a really progressive person. Maybe he was kind of too far ahead of his time and so people didn't understand him. 

Erin Vanderhoof: More coming up on_ Dynasty_.

Omid Scobie: I think despite her reputation for being perhaps somewhat distant and aloof at times, you know, the Queen has brought this incredible personal touch to the British monarchy. You know, introducing more formal engagements, increasing visibility. 

Katie Nicholl: This is Omid Scobie, co-author of _Finding Freedom_. 

Omid Scobie: And I think that that is an almost impossible feat. It sets the mark so high. 

Erin Vanderhoof: This is a major challenge that Charles is gonna have to face during his reign. So much of the love that people have for the monarchy is, right now, love and admiration for the Queen. Not only does he have to step into her shoes, Charles is going to have to prove that the institution still has a place in the modern world.

Omid Scobie: I think that's what makes the challenge so difficult for him. He's coming in at a very late stage in his life when people have already, uh, formed very strong opinions about him that I don't think can be swayed at this point. 

Erin Vanderhoof: There has never been anybody more ready for a job ever. But I think the question still remains, what will his reign be like?

Katie Nicholl: Well, Erin, I think we can point to his very long tenure as the Prince of Wales as a pretty major clue. One of the biggest ways Charles and his mother differ is that we barely know what the Queen thinks or how she feels about anything. But with Charles, we have a long list of political and ethical causes that he's extremely outspoken about.

Erin Vanderhoof: He's been called the 'Medling Prince,' but these are issues that he cares passionately about and he wants to do something about them. So that means using his unique spotlight. For example, Charles has been ringing the alarm about pollution and the environment since 1970. That year, he gave a speech in which he warned against the horrific effects of pollution in all its cancerous forms. Here's the Prince revisiting that speech 50 years later in 2020. 

Prince Charles [Archival Audio]: There is the growing menace of oil pollution at sea, which almost destroys beaches, and certainly destroys tens of thousands of sea birds. There is chemical pollution discharged into rivers from factories and chemical plants, which clogs up the rivers with toxic substances that adds to the filth in the seas. There is air pollution from smoke and fumes discharged by the factories... 

Katie Nicholl: He's also been a huge proponent of interfaith dialogue, taking a particular interest in Islam. He's reported to be very studied in its teaching, and he's advocated for Britain to be a patchwork of many different faiths. As the future monarch, he will be named the Supreme Governor of the Church of England. The defender of the faith. But he's already pushed back and said he wants to be the defender of all faiths.

Erin Vanderhoof: This is another belief of his that goes all the way back to the very beginning. There's a funny story about him trying to scheme his way into a mass with the Pope during his 1985 trip to the Vatican. Reportedly the Queen's Private Secretary caught wind of the plan and it didn't work out. I spent a long time reading everything I can about Charles and the sense I get of him is that he is headstrong and humorous. Maybe a bit of a dilatant, but very committed. More Larry David than Henry VIII, you know? Here's _Vanity Fair_ writer, James Reginato.

James Reginato: I think Charles has actually been very misunderstood. Part of it is he has a certain formality that I think people mistake for sort of, like seem as being sort of old fashioned. In fact, he's actually been a really progressive person and he was out way ahead of his time. Um, you know, advocating on behalf of the environment, alternative medicine, architecture, things like that. Maybe he was too far ahead of this time and so people didn't understand him at the time. 

Erin Vanderhoof: Charles has said that Gordonstoun taught him about his own abilities. So his long standing advocacy for the environment may very well have its roots in a school largely dedicated to the outdoor. Here is Euan Rellie. 

Euan Rellie: I think Charles is an environmentalist and he cares very, very deeply about that. That's not just a gimmick. He really has, you know, his whole life he's wanted to, uh, you know, he, he talked about sustainability before it was fashionable and he deserves some credit for that and he's given credit for that. So I think, um, that informs the way that he behaves.

Katie Nicholl: It's interesting hearing Euan say this because when I interviewed Dame Martina Milburn, who's the CEO of the Prince's Trust for my latest book, _The New Royals,_ she said that she doesn't think Charles gets the credit he deserves. And I agree. Look at what he's done in terms of putting the spotlight on the environment and the need to do something about climate change. He was talking about organic farming and the danger of GM crops years before many of us. And at the time, he was written off as medling and interfering. Some people even called him bonkers, but he wasn't. 

Erin Vanderhoof: I think some of that foresight has put him ahead of some of the biggest issues of the time. While his focus on traditional architecture and the preservation of British history may have seemed out of touch at some times, it was a sign of how invested he is in the retention of the traditions and cultural heritage. And that feeling has been at the center of some of the biggest political debates of the day like Brexit. 

Tina Brown: Some of his more, uh, sort of fogeyish concerns, if you like, where he was lot mocked for writing letters constantly to the Prime Minister for, you know, raising concerns of the rural folk of England in a way that seemed like, you know, oh God, you know, he's always on about, you know, some rare bird that had been, you know, sort of stamped out or whatever. 

Erin Vanderhoof: Tina Brown again.

Tina Brown: But the fact is, is that he had a sense of the discontents of rural England that actually played out during Brexit in a way that was quite ahead of his time, actually. I mean, he has always had that, uh, connection to rural England and knows what people think there. And, you know, he's right to raise those issues as it turned out and they became major issues.

Katie Nicholl: It's hard to argue that Charles' work hasn't had a real impact. The Prince's Trust has helped over 1 million young people in the UK alone. One of the most high profile examples is the actor Idris Elba, who came out a few years ago and revealed that he'd auditioned for a grant for the Prince's Trust when he was just 18 years old. With the money he received, he was able to enroll in the National Youth Music Theater. He's since gone on to become a Goodwill Ambassador for the trust, even recording a short film about his experiences in 2010, with another beneficiary of the trust from London, Dante Lauder-Hawkins.

Idris Elba [Archival Audio]: Yeah. It's a great, um, you know, I'm working with Dante cuz he, you know, I, I, I came up in the Prince's Trust too. Not as in the program, I actually auditioned for a grant and they gave me a grant, but I know that they've kept in touch with my progression. You know what I'm saying? And so now I'm giving back basically. I've had a great career, but it's just great to come back and be able to, you know, help the trust come back in. So, no, that's good stuff. I love youth centers too, man. You know what I mean? 

Erin Vanderhoof: In some ways Charles takes a more unconventional approach to his role than we might have expected. Here's James Reginato again, who traveled with Prince Charles on the eve of his 70th birthday for a _Vanity Fair_ profile.

James Reginato: And in fact, what I realized, um, Prince Charles is very open to spontaneity and a lot of other royals, most other royals I'm told kind of stick to the script as it were, but Charles loves when he sees a person in a crowd that he wants to talk to. He's pretty fearless about starting out and trying to talk to them and he's good at it. It's something, I think it produces some, um, palpitations, like, as I said, in some security people, but, um, It's what I think makes him a very personal- personable person. 

Katie Nicholl: And that spirit of spontaneity that James is talking about comes through in his approach to royal engagements, and into the causes that he's taken interest in. When you look at the things he's advocated for, it starts to paint the picture of someone quite eclectic and absolutely committed to their beliefs. 

Erin Vanderhoof: I think one specific incident helps explain both the positives and the negatives of this approach. In 1982, Charles delivered a speech to the British medical association, explaining his longtime interest in homeopathy and alternative medicine.

Katie Nicholl: It would be one thing if he left it there, but the speech actually got a little heated. He criticized doctors for what he saw as a dependence on drugs and a failure to see patients as human. While plenty of doctors were not impressed, and one even dismissed the holistic methods of a cancer center Charles supported as being full of bogus notions. But according to his biographer, Jonathan Dimbleby, Charles continued to push for alternative medicine even after he got negative reviews. 

Erin Vanderhoof: Decades later, plenty of mainstream practitioners believe in the potential of acupuncture, yoga, and holistic medicine. In 2012, Charles returned to the issue in a similar address, acknowledged the prior controversy, and repeated his points with a bit more hedging and self deprecation. He learned, but he stuck to his guns. 

Katie Nicholl: And I think we will see more of that hedging when he's King, but he's always had very strong beliefs that didn't always align with the status quo. And I do think that there is a sense now that he's finally being recognized as a voice of wisdom, and perhaps that's what will define his reign.

Erin Vanderhoof: He has a vision, but just because he's prepared doesn't mean that things will be easy.

Katie Nicholl: I think it's important to recognize the real challenges for Charles. A recent poll from May found that just 9% of gen Z said they think the monarchy is one of the best aspects of Britain today. That's got to be a worrying statistic for Charles and the royal family. 

Erin Vanderhoof: It seems like the British public and those across the Commonwealth still need convincing that he can be a figure for the future and not just a representative of the past.

Katie Nicholl: I think that's true, Erin, and I think one of the greatest challenges is that there is a generational divide and we saw that particularly after Megxit. The older generation thought Meghan and Harry leaving was a betrayal, but the younger generation had no problem with it. In some ways, it's the young generation that needs to be convinced that there can be a place for a hereditary monarchy in a modern society. The age of deference is long gone, and the final chapter of that book will likely die out when the Queen goes. 

Erin Vanderhoof: So what will Charles do? His vision for a slimmed down royal family is well known, but what does that mean for his nieces and nephews who are already in the public eye? Is he willing to scale back the family's participation in public events for the sake of keeping a firewall between them and the monarchy? When I talked to Sally Bedell Smith, she said that Charles had wanted to marginalize his siblings a bit more than he already has, but he still needs Edward and Anne to carry the load. We know that he is not going to have the long reign that his mother has had, so he has to be thinking about these things already. And he's going to have to hit the ground running as soon as he reaches the throne. 

Katie Nicholl: Because he's already in his seventies, Charles will be a transitional King. He may never celebrate a Jubilee. Nonetheless, he'll want to make a difference and have an impact. And I think we will see him harness his convening powers. For example, uniting world leaders to tackle climate change and if he's pushing causes like celebrating multi-faith Britain, and giving vulnerable young people a first step up the ladder, then I don't see that he will meet resistance. In fact, I think he'll have the support of his subjects. 

Erin Vanderhoof: We pondered the potential impact of Charles' reign with Tina Brown. 

Tina Brown: In many ways that... I'm a bit of optimist really for Charles' reign. I, I think that he's going to be a perfect sort of transitional monarch between the Queen and William. I think that Charles, as it happens, how he waited so long for the throne and been in the waiting room of his destiny, you know, for 45, 50 years, actually, when he walks through the door, he's really coming in at the perfect time. This happens to be the man meeting the moment. He's also frankly, been learning and learning and learning. And he does have, you know, he's met every foreign leader at this point, three generations deep. Um, he's very accomplished as a statesman now. A very accomplished diplomat for his own country. I think that he's going to be very good, really. 

Katie Nicholl: Charles will be a soft power diplomat in a way that politicians can't and he will be trusted in a way that politicians aren't. He has the experience and he knows how to use his unique platform to have an impact. And he'll be a familiar face providing us with continuity after the great Second Elizabethan reign. 

Erin Vanderhoof: We don't know when Charles will take the throne, but we do know a fair amount about how the transition might look. The Queen has already expressed her wishes that Camilla be named Queen consort. Tina Brown again. 

Tina Brown: I think that the Queen Camilla is gonna become as beloved as the Queen Mother. You know, she's very gracious, very charming, very reassuring. And there's a warmth to her that I think is going to communicate well. So it's not going to be the extraordinary, uh, monarchy of the, of, of Elizabeth II because Elizabeth II, the rings of history around her, you know, are so deep. Um, you know, this is a Queen whose first Prime Minister was, was Winston Churchill. You know, um, and, uh, you know, has lived through unbelievable circles of history, essentially.

Katie Nicholl: And history won't exactly repeat itself. Charles' coronation ceremony will be more streamlined, reportedly shorter and cheaper than the Queens. And Charles and Camilla will be crowned on the same day under plans being drawn up with the code name, Operation Golden Orb. The coronation will happen well within a year of Charles's accession and its acknowledgement of the religious and cultural diversity of modern Britain will mark a significant departure from the Queen's coronation, which reflected the nation and empire of the time. 

Erin Vanderhoof: We've expressed a lot of our thoughts about our optimism for Charles' reign, but I know that he's gonna face some challenges. Katie, do you have any insight into what those real challenges are? 

Katie Nicholl: Well, Erin, I think apathy is probably the biggest threat to the monarchy because if the British people don't care, then they're in trouble. And the monarchy needs to be accessible, metaphorically and literally. And we've already seen that with the royals on Instagram, their popularity soars, so one of Charles's long term plans is to open more of the palaces to the public, and I think that will be a good thing.

Erin Vanderhoof: We saw exactly how popular the monarchy could be when the Queen celebrated her Platinum Jubilee. It was incredibly fun. Full of appreciation for the Queen, her record breaking reign of 70 years, and the vibrant culture that she helped Britain develop in her time on the throne. But it also felt like something of a last hurrah. Now, I was watching the live stream from New York, but Katie, you were right in the middle of the action covering the ceremony. What did the ceremony feel like? 

Katie Nicholl: Well, Erin, the Jubilee felt epic from start to finish. I think that after two difficult years of the pandemic, the lockdowns, this dire economic forecast, this moment felt like an opportunity to celebrate. And there was a sense of wanting to witness a moment we are unlikely to ever see again. But there was very much a sense that as much as we were celebrating her remarkable reign, this wasn't just a thank you, it felt like a farewell too. 

Erin Vanderhoof: That feeling was hanging in the air for every event that she missed and had to watch at home on TV. It prompted many of us to consider her legacy and the incredible sacrifice that her commitment to duty has required. 

Katie Nicholl: It did. And I think it's a testament to her service that despite all the different ways that people feel about the monarchy, most can recognize just how remarkable Queen Elizabeth II's reign has been.

Erin Vanderhoof: We've asked this before, but I believe that when the Queen is no longer the Head of State, a really important question will emerge, what place is there for a hereditary monarchy in the modern world? And it's up to Charles to make that justification. Now, I don't think the monarchy is going anywhere anytime soon. For that to happen, there will need to be a sea change in public opinion and a new political will that just doesn't exist right now. Just think about how impossible it was to get Brexit done. But I think questions that were never truly asked of the Queen will be asked of Charles. 

Katie Nicholl: The affection towards the house of Windsor is principally down to people's respect for the Queen, her steadfast commitment and devotion to her people, and her ability to reinvent the monarchy over the decades, which has been crucial for its survival. So the big question is, can Charles do the same? Here's writer and commentator, Shon Faye. 

Shon Faye: I think there will be an attempt to, yeah, rebrand um, because once Charles is King a lot of the old guard at the palaces will be, you know, he'll bring in his own people and he was a bit of a modernizer. Um, and so I think they will, they will continue to try and push for their own survival. The monarchy, particularly the, the Windsors are- they'll do anything to survive. I mean, that's, that's ultimately what they'll do. They'll change if it means survival. And I think they will try and adapt themselves to fit in as best they can with the modern world. And I think the media will allow them to do that. So I see them, the Windsors, continuing on albeit and probably a bit of a paired back, less grandiose, um, form for several generations to come. Unless there's some kind of revolution. 

Erin Vanderhoof: Going back to the Jubilee, Katie. I was so surprised and honestly overjoyed to see the Queen on the balcony at the end of the parade, wearing a broach that belonged to her great, great grandmother standing next to her three heirs. How did you feel about the future of the monarchy at that moment? 

Katie Nicholl: Well, I think that image of the four generations of the House of Windsor on the balcony was a very powerful one, and quite deliberate, because it represented the image of the future and that the succession is secure; here's the Queen and her three generations of heirs. 

Erin Vanderhoof: I think that moment showed exactly why it's so emotionally important to have a family on the throne. As the descendant of a revolutionary war veterans, I am certainly not an ardent monarchist, but I fell into this job because I'm obsessed with the Windsor's history and because I'm such a sap for those family moments. 

Katie Nicholl: It's funny Erin, because I wasn't a monarchist when I started out in the job about 17 years ago. But, I do believe that the royal family does a very important and unique job. And I'm not sure I'd want the alternative, which is of course, a Republic. No politician has the same convening power and soft diplomacy we see the royals execute so brilliantly. And as for Charles, well, Erin, I've always liked him ever since he tickled my little daughter's toes when we were at the palace many years ago. I also think that he has the potential to be a really great king. Recently, we've seen him carry out many important state roles on behalf of the Queen, very capably. And while another aging monarch might not inspire much enthusiasm among Gen Z, there is the promise of a young dynasty to come. In William and Catherine, and of course, the young Prince George. The coming months and years will be fascinating. I've never experienced a coronation, but we will see one in our lifetime, possibly two. What we have is a ringside seat to history and we will continue to analyze, scrutinize, and bring you the unrivaled royal coverage for which_ Vanity Fair _is renowned. 

Erin Vanderhoof: One thing is for certain, while _Dynasty: the Windsors_ has come to an end, the Windsor story is sure to continue along into the future. And the two of us will be right here helping you along every step of the way. You can follow all of our reporting at vanityfair.com. Thank you so much for listening to the show. _Dynasty_ is hosted by Katie Nicholl and me, Erin Vanderhoof and is produced by _Vanity Fair_ in partnership with Somethin' Else. Lizzie Jacobs is our executive producer. Darby Dorras and Brian Urstadt are our editors. Rob Dozier, Zoe Edwards, Cheeka Eyers, and Sylvie Lubow are are producers. 

Katie Nicholl: Ginny Bloom is our showrunner. Basak Erten and Jessica Jones are our associate producers, and Ike Egbetola, Lily Hambly, and Peyton Hayes are our production coordinators. 

Erin Vanderhoof: This episode was engineered by Josh Gibbs and the theme song was composed by Woolly Music. Fact checking was done by Sara Krolewski. _Dynasty _was conceived by _Vanity Fair_ Executive Editor, Claire Howorth. Claire and Katey Rich are our staff editorial consultants. 

Katie Nicholl: Thank you to our guests, Tina Brown, James Reginato, Omid Scobie, Euan Rellie, and Shon Faye, as well as all of our guests from across the series. If you love the show, be sure to rate, review and follow on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. For more Dynasty visit vf.com/Dynasty. And you can follow _Vanity Fair_ on Instagram and Twitter @vanityfair.