Giovanna Fletcher [Archival Audio]: Do you struggle with mum guilt? For having to juggle- 

Kate Middleton [Archival Audio]: Yes, absolutely. I think anyone who doesn't as a mother is actually lying. Yeah, all the time. Yeah, and you know, even this morning, I went to the nursery visit here, and George and Charlotte were like, 'Mummy, how could you possibly not drop me off, or us off at school this morning?' But no it's a constant challenge.

Katie Nicholl: That's the Duchess of Cambridge, Kate Middleton, on her first podcast back in February 2020. It was for a show called _Happy Mum, Happy Baby_ hosted by Giovanna Fletcher: a blogger, vlogger, and podcast host. And even though it was Kate's first experience recording a podcast interview, she spoke really honestly about a topic that's obviously very personal, but also universal- parenting. And some of us UK Royal Correspondents were invited to Kensington Palace to listen to the first airing of the show before it went out. And it was really enlightening, and actually very refreshing, to hear Kate, the Duchess of Cambridge, speak about motherhood in a really normal way. And she even admitted to finding some elements of it quite challenging.

Kate Middleton [Archival Audio]: You hear it time and time again, from, from mums. Even mums who aren't necessarily working and aren't pulled in, in the direction of sort of having to juggle quiet life and family life. They too feel that-

Giovanna Fletcher [Archival Audio]: There's always something to feel guilty about. 

Kate Middleton [Archival Audio]: There's always something, exactly. And actually sort of questioning your own decisions and your own judgements and things like that.

Erin Vanderhoof: Of course, some of Kate's challenges are pretty unique because when it comes down to it, she's parenting in a very specific context. 

Katie Nicholl: Yeah, a really difficult context with the entire world watching and judging. Motherhood has always been a cornerstone of the monarchy from producing heirs to raising future Kings and Queens. The survival of the crown has quite literally depended on it, but beyond the scope of succession, parenting within the Royal Institution is really rather complex. 

Erin Vanderhoof: In this episode, we're going to take a look at the ways that royal mothers often have to balance being a mom with living under centuries of traditions, and the tensions that arise between duty and taking care of your family. Ultimately, we're talking about how, like the monarchy itself, royal parenting has had to adapt to the 21st century. 

Katie Nicholl: And we'll be hearing from author, Carolyn Harris, as she walks us through some of the historical hallmarks of royal motherhood. 

Erin Vanderhoof: We'll also talk to Tina Brown, former Editor-in-Chief of _Vanity Fair_ and author of _The Palace Papers_, a book full of royal revelations. She'll tell us how Princess Diana's style of parenting raised some eyebrows in the royal family.

Katie Nicholl: And we'll hear from Tiffany Norris, renowned 'Mummy Concierge' who shares some of the more acute parental pressures royals face, particularly in the digital age. I'm Katie Nicholl. 

Erin Vanderhoof: And I'm Erin Vanderhoof. From _Vanity Fair_ this is _Dynasty: the Windsors. _

Katie Nicholl: Episode five, "'The Only job Which Matters': Motherhood Inside the Monarchy." 

Erin Vanderhoof: Katie, uh, what is a 'mummy concierge?' 

Katie Nicholl: I love the way you think I'm going to know the answers to that, Erin. My understanding is it's a cross between a midwife and a personal shopper, which sounds like a curious combination.

Erin Vanderhoof: I mean, hey, it sounds like it could come in handy. 

Katie Nicholl: I know, I wish I'd had one. I could have done with one.

Reporter [Archival Audio]: May we see your son, your Royal Highness? 

Erin Vanderhoof: So, that animated scene is 1982. Diana and Charles are leaving St. Mary's Hospital with their new baby, Prince William. Once again, not a concert, just people wanting to see the heir to the throne. They pose for photos on the steps of the Lindo Wing, often the maternity ward of choice for the royals, but the crowd outside the hospital is massive. There are cameras everywhere. People are cheering. It's wild. 

Katie Nicholl: Well it's like a big street party because this wasn't just any baby, this was a royal baby and an heir. So it was always going to generate a lot of anticipation and excitement. And when it came to posing for photos, I think there was an expectation that Diana was going to do it, because don't forget, Princess Anne had done the very same thing with the births of her children, Peter Phillips and Zara Phillips, and in doing so, she kind of started something of a new royal tradition.

Reporter [Archival Audio]: "The crowd had seen little more than a crop of fair hair poking out of the top of a blanket. But for some, it was the experience of a lifetime." "What do you think of him then? ""Oh, wonderful. Absolutely wonderful." 

Katie Nicholl: The public were partying in the streets and popping champagne corks. William's arrival was a real occasion for a proper celebration.

Erin Vanderhoof: Even crazier is the fact that William was actually the first heir to be born in a hospital. His father, Charles, for example, was reportedly born by C-section in a makeshift maternity ward in Buckingham Palace. But here, we have Diana choosing a hospital, and I feel like it says a lot about some of the changes that were going on both inside and outside of the monarchy. You know, it's 1980s and women are more empowered to make decisions and challenge the status quo. 

Carolyn Harris: So royal women were often raised with the expectation that they would be in this marital and diplomatic role, and that they were expected to produce children. Those royal marriages that took place with very young brides were not always immediately consummated. Um, sometimes the consummation took place later when they were a little older, but there was always the expectation of children. 

Erin Vanderhoof: That's Carolyn Harris, historian and author of _Raising Royalty: 1000 Years of Royal Parenting_. And going off her point, you can really see how, at least historically, the function of royal motherhood, and really like the diplomatic role of a royal wife is to produce an heir and to participate in childbearing. 

Katie Nicholl: I know it sounds very antiquated, doesn't it? But, when you go a step further, there were several customs, many of which would be considered completely archaic today, that accompanied royal births. So as strange as this sounds, it was the case. Even when the queen was born, that the home secretary, a senior government official, was present at the royal birth to make sure the new baby was actually a royal and not some imposter smuggled in to seize the throne.

Erin Vanderhoof: It's even more odd when you consider the fact that royal fathers weren't allowed in the delivery room. Home secretaries, yes, fathers, no. So as the story goes, when Queen Elizabeth was in labor with Prince Charles, Prince Phillip was said to be playing squash and swimming laps in another part of the palace.

Katie Nicholl: Well to Phillip's credit, he did later become the first royal father in modern history to actually be in the room when the Queen gave birth. And that was back in 1964, when Elizabeth delivered her youngest son, Prince Edward. 

Erin Vanderhoof: And that's the tradition we've come to know and expect: having royal dads in the delivery room. But another aspect of royal birth that was slower to evolve was the rule of primogeniture. 

Katie Nicholl: Yes, I mean essentially this is the rule that dictates that the first born son gets everything. All of the land, all of the money, and of course gets to be king too. 

Erin Vanderhoof: So, throughout history there have been a bunch of different ways to organize and arrange royal succession. But in Britain, since The Act of Settlement in 1701, sons have taken precedence over their female siblings even if the sons are younger. So we saw this with Princess Anne, for example. She was pushed back two places in the succession order by her younger brothers, Prince Andrew and Prince Edward. 

Katie Nicholl: And amazingly, it wasn't until 2013 that the law was amended so that the eldest child regardless of sex would be next in line to the throne.

Reporter [Archival Audio]: First, we will end the male primogenital rule so that in future the order of succession should be determined simply by the order of birth. And we've agreed to introduce this for all descendants from the Prince of Wales. 

Katie Nicholl: This was just ahead of the birth of Prince George, but in fact, had it been Princess Charlotte who had been born first why on earth shouldn't she do the top job. I mean, the Queen has done it successfully for 70 years and good for her for being the one to help bring about that change to what was essentially a very outdated custom after all these years. Frankly, it should have been done decades ago. 

Erin Vanderhoof: It's another sign of how the Queen is always looking at these decisions from the perspective of following the traditions that her parents really cared about. That all of the monarchs that came before her really cared about, but also ensuring that she's setting up the monarchy and she's setting up her family for their own success in the future.

Katie Nicholl: Yeah, that success both as a monarch and as a mother. And over the years the queen has had to navigate balancing the needs of being a parent and giving her family what they needed of her, together with being Head of State. 

Erin Vanderhoof: She actually became a mother before she became monarch. Charles was born in 1948 and Anne was born in 1950. And Elizabeth actually spent those couple of years right after their births going back and forth between England and Malta where Prince Phillip was stationed with the Royal Navy. She was gone for weeks and even months at the time, occasionally leaving the kids behind with the Queen Mother and with the staff nannies.

Katie Nicholl: Yes, that's right. And when she did become Queen in 1952, I suppose she was quite used to having those extended periods of time away from her children. 

Tina Brown: I do feel sorry for Charles. I think he had a pretty rough childhood. There's a sad scene when he knocks on the Queen's door when he's about five and asked her to play. You know, and she says to him, "Oh, I do so wish I could."

Katie Nicholl: That's Tina Brown, former Editor-in-Chief of _Vanity Fair_ and author of the new book, _The Palace Papers_, painting a rather lonely picture of Charles' childhood. 

Tina Brown: It's a poignant scene that any working mother can identify with as the truth. Work-life balance wasn't on the- in the script in the fifties for the Queen, not at all. 

Erin Vanderhoof: Not even a year after she was crowned Queen, Elizabeth and Phillip set off on a tour of the Commonwealth for six months leaving the children behind in the care of nannies, which to be fair, was not that unusual for upper-class women at the time. But still six months.

Reporter [Archival Audio]: The Stratocruiser comes into Bermuda, starting point of Her Majesty's tour of the Commonwealth. Only 17 hours after the Queen left London, the colony's highest dignitaries wait to welcome her.

Katie Nicholl: I think even if she had wanted to be a more hands on mother, she wasn't in a position to do that. So you've got a young mother coming to terms with motherhood, and all of that entails, whilst also learning to be Queen. And it was a case of duty before family. It always has been, and it always will be. And when you look at the Queen, I think it was actually a calculated decision on, on her and Phillip's part, a decade later to have a second family with Andrew and Edward. And I think once she'd gotten being Queen under her belt and knew what she was doing, she was able to go into motherhood from a different perspective, with more confidence and more experience. And I think she was probably able to enjoy it more the second time round.

Erin Vanderhoof: I think you're right, and it definitely had impacts on the way that all of her children were able to relate to each other as they grew up. Andrew is 12 years younger than Charles. Charles had already gone away to boarding school by the time Andrew was born and Charles was never really that close with his younger siblings who, for all intents and purposes, had a different mom. She just was going through totally different things in her life. Partially because by the sixties she was really just like in her stride as the Queen. That is when you really see her become the figure who's really confident that we know, and it took her time to figure that out. 

Katie Nicholl: It did, it took her time to figure out how to be Queen, how to be mother, and crucially, how to marry the two together. It was also the preface to the next chapter in royal motherhood, which would be, I think even more radically different. And that would be Diana's chapter.

Erin Vanderhoof: Here's Prince Harry speaking about his mother in the 2017 HBO documentary, _Diana, Our Mother: Her Life and Legacy._ 

Prince Harry [Archival Audio]: My mother cherished those moments of, of, of privacy and being able to be that mother rather than the Princess of Wales. She made the decision that, no matter what, despite all of the difficulties of growing up in that limelight and on that stage, she was going to ensure that both of us had as normal life as possible.

Erin Vanderhoof: Whether sneaking her boys into the movies or bringing them with her to visit a homelessness charity in London, Princess Diana changed so much about motherhood inside and outside the palace walls. Here's Tina Brown again. 

Tina Brown: Her desire was to have them understand their duty, and understand that was ahead of them, but also feel that they could be part of the human race, frankly, which was an enormous contribution she made to their lives.

Katie Nicholl: While the sentiment ruffled some feathers in the royal family, which it absolutely did, in many ways it became Diana's legacy. Operating with a kind of boldness that wasn't there in the beginning, but which she cultivated over time. 

Erin Vanderhoof: So Diana was brought into the family essentially to be a mother, but she interpreted that mandate in a very unique way. 

Do you remember when you first heard of Lady Diana Spencer? 

Tina Brown: Um, very much so. I mean, I was editor of _Tatler _and, uh, the magazine unit in London, which is obviously the social magazine, from the moment that she was first photographed by James Whitaker on the banks of the river Dee. She became immediately a girl of great enormous fascination, because of course Charles was the most eligible bachelor in the world. And the great question of who he's going to marry sort of ran through the tabloids on a daily basis. 

Katie Nicholl: Whoever Charles chose was not only going to be the next Princess of Wales, but also the mother to the next King of England. There really was an enormous pressure on both of them from the beginning.

Erin Vanderhoof: Absolutely, Katie. Diana was just 16 years old when she first met Charles. By the time they start dating, she's 19 and he's 31. That is a huge age gap. I think it would be hard for any couple to make that work. 

Katie Nicholl: Here's Diana speaking with the BBC in 1981 at her and Charles' first joint interview shortly after they announced their engagement.

Reporter [Archival Audio]: Do you find it a daunting experience that yesterday you were a nanny looking after children, now you're about to marry the Prince of Wales? And one day you would, in all likely would be queen. It's a tremendous change for someone, I may say of 19, to make all of a sudden. 

Princess Diana [Archival Audio]: It is, but I've had a small run up to it all in the last six months. And next to Prince Charles, I know I can't go wrong. He's there with me.

Katie Nicholl: From their first date in 1980 to their Royal Wedding in 1981, Diana and Charles had only seen each other 13 times. Can you believe that?

Erin Vanderhoof: So in just under two years, Diana goes from being an 18 year old girl who'd just moved out on her own to being the Princess of Wales. 

Katie Nicholl: Yeah, it's quite a remarkable metamorphosis, isn't it? And I think no wonder Diana struggled so much, particularly during her pregnancy when she was very much under the spotlight and under huge scrutiny. All while trying to get her head around being a mother. Trying to get her head around being the Princess of Wales. And you know, whether or not her husband was still with his former lover. I mean, there was a lot for Diana to contend with at that period in her life. 

Erin Vanderhoof: That said, one of the things that really grounded her during a really tumultuous time in her life was clearly being a mother. 

Katie Nicholl: Oh, I think a hundred percent. She absolutely loved being a mum, and she was a brilliant mum. And I think whatever any member of the royal family might say against Diana, no one could accuse her of being a bad mother because she was a complete natural. And I wonder if some of that is down to her own childhood? I think it's fair to say she had a somewhat lonely childhood. Don't forget her parents divorced when she was just seven years old, after her father took custody of the Spencer children. So, I think it was absolutely the case that when she had her own family, she was determined to give William and Harry a childhood that was quite different to her own. And she made sure that she was there for them. 

Prince Harry [Archival Audio]: She smothered us with the love that's for sure. To myself and William she was just the best mother ever. She would just engulf you and squeeze you as tight as possible. 

Prince William [Archival Audio]: She was extremely good at showing her love. She was extremely good at showing, you know, what you meant to her and you know, what feelings meant and, and how possible that was to feel.

Erin Vanderhoof: Whenever William and Harry talk about their mother, they praise her for how open she was with her affection. That openness definitely went against the grain of the more reserved behavior that's more characteristic of the monarchy. Here's Tina brown again. 

Tina Brown: One of her biggest contributions, I think, uh, to the royal family was to take that whole aloof mothering, essentially, which had been the royal way before, off the table, and show what it was to be in flesh and blood: warm, caring, super-involved mother. 

Katie Nicholl: Perhaps that's why it came as a genuine surprise when Diana and Charles took the then nine month old Prince William to Australia and New Zealand for a really epic tour back in 1983. This idea that royals took their children overseas, particularly on official visits, was very unusual. But, to take such a young baby to the other side of the world. It was something the Queen would never even have considered. But for Charles and Diana, it was absolutely fundamental that where they went, William went too. 

Tina Brown: She really was determined not to be separated from William. I mean, if you remember, the Queen went off on a six months, uh, Commonwealth tour leaving Charles behind when he was, I think, you know, five or six. So Diana would never have done that in a million years. Now, obviously attitudes to parenting had also changed around her, let's face it, but it just will never have occurred to her to leave her children that long. And everything was always planned around children's schedule. Diana used to take the boys to school, you know, and she would attend like any parent, and drop the children off and, you know, pick them up and so on. And she wanted to do those things, which had never really happened before. 

Erin Vanderhoof: What did the royal family think of her, you know, very hands-on parenting style? 

Tina Brown: Well, eyebrows were definitely raised in the palace. Particularly because Diana also demanded that Charles was much more hands-on. And his advisors didn't like that at all. I mean, she would say to his advisors, don't let Charles start his work until after the children have gone to school, because I want him to spend time with them in the morning. They resented that very much, but she, you know, put her foot down and said, Charles must. And Charles became much more of a hands-on father than his own father ever was, or any royal father had really been until that time. And that was Diana's insistence, which was something I think that Charles is glad she did. 

Katie Nicholl: I think it's also important to remember that as much as Diana shook up that sort of traditional model of royal parenting, Charles absolutely played a part too. He loved spending time with the boys at Highgrove where he built them a special tree house, and taking them fishing, and stalking on the Balmoral Estate. So Charles also played an important part in redefining the role of the royal patriarch. 

Erin Vanderhoof: Yeah, I mean, first fraught as their marriage was, and it was fraught, both Diana and Charles really threw themselves into being parents and were really passionate about it. And that paved the way for the kind of royal parenting that we see today.

Tiffany Norris: When you're a member of the royal family, everything that you do is going to be judged. 

Katie Nicholl: After the break, the next generation takes on motherhood.

Prince William [Archival Audio]: Well, he's got a good pair of lungs on him, that's for sure. Uh, he's a, he's a big boy. He's quite heavy, but, uh, we're still working on a name. So we'll have that soon as we can, but it's the first time we've seen him ready, so having a proper chance to catch up...

Erin Vanderhoof: July 2013, a familiar scene unfolds in London. Press and fans have been camped outside of St. Mary's hospital for days anxiously awaiting the arrival of a new heir. This time it's William and Kate, the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge introducing their son, Prince George, to the world. 

Katie Nicholl: Yes, this is what the media christened, "The Great Kate Wait," because we didn't have a due date for Prince George, and so when we had an inkling that his arrival might be imminent, cameras and news crews from around the world set up camp outside St. Mary's Hospital. And when you look at that footage, it's a bit like stepping into a time machine and going back to Diana and Charles and the birth of Prince William. It's the same hospital. Those are the very same steps that they posed on. Kate's blue polka dot dress was even similar to the one that Diana wore when she came out for that famous photo opportunity. There really was a sense of history repeating itself, and it felt like William and Kate were adhering to a tradition that the British people had come to love, and yes, expect of a royal couple.

Erin Vanderhoof: There are so many similarities between the two scenes, even down to that dress, that it makes you wonder how much they plan for that or talk about it behind the scenes. You know, how do you present that idea to somebody who's just joined the family two years prior? And even though doing a full-on photo shoot with your newborn is kind of the trend, you know, with a hairstylist and makeup and everything, it's still hard to imagine walking out into this type of media circus directly after giving birth. 

Katie Nicholl: Yeah, I think really very, very daunting prospects. I mean, no one looks their best after having given birth. Unless of course you're Kate Middleton, who looked incredible when she stepped out with George, but I felt quite sorry for some of the other couples who had paid a lot of money for this private birth package at the Lindo Wing, who came out the main hospital doors and were confronted with this awe - inspiring site of hundreds of media and taking their pictures. 

Erin Vanderhoof: So you mean just regular people? 

Katie Nicholl: Yes. Regular couples who happen to have given birth at the same hospital as William and Kate came out and faced the very same scene. So for those cameramen, I guess it was a bit of a dress rehearsal. For those couples, either a great shock or the best moment of their lives. I don't know, depending on where you see it. 

Erin Vanderhoof: Maybe that's gotta be part of just the Lindo Wing package from now on. You'll get your own press along with your, uh, high level maternity care. 

Katie Nicholl: Yeah, absolutely, but joking aside, there is a real flip side to all of this.

Tiffany Norris: You obviously have to announce the fact that, you know, your baby has been born, um, at a time usually that will suit the palace. You know, it all has to be discussed and gone through that way. 

Erin Vanderhoof: That's Tiffany Norris, the creative force behind "The Mummy Concierge." A service that helps prepare women for motherhood. Over the years, Tiffany has worked with royals and non royals alike, noting a few key differences along the way. 

Tiffany Norris: Quite often, some of the hospitals that I've worked with, they do have secret lifts where the royal family can go around the back of the hospital, can be taken up in a private lift that will then take them directly into a private suite. So they obviously don't have to walk through, you know, the public areas of the hospital. A lot of the hospitals do have suites as well. So these will be a lot bigger than the normal private rooms. You'll have your own living room. Um, you'll have an en-suite bathroom. Quite often they'll have a big comfortable double bed where your partner can stay. 

Katie Nicholl: And of course, being a royal parent is never that similar to anything else. There are the Norland nannies, for example, who are the Mary Poppins of childcare. Tiffany Norris again.

Tiffany Norris: A Norland nanny is basically the creme de la creme of nannies, certainly in the UK. They have to go to a college and they basically train to become the best nanny out there. Um, they, as well as obviously all the childcare qualifications, can become a maternity nurse, get maternity nurse qualifications. So it, it really is for people who want to be the best nanny they can possibly be. Because quite a lot of Norland nannies end up working for celebrities and members of the royal family. They can do extra modules on their course, which might be, um, learning to drive in order to escape paparazzis. They sort of do safe driving courses, and they're quite often taught how to cook on an auger because, um, lots of families maybe live in country houses, will have a second home in the countryside, and you'll have augers and dogs and things like that. 

Erin Vanderhoof: So, if you don't have a country house in Britain, it's helpful to know that the auger is a British stove that has no controls or knobs on the front. It is always on. Always burning gas and it costs about $20,000. 

Tiffany Norris: You know, when you work for these very wealthy families, what you're getting in employing a Norland nanny is you're not just getting someone who's going to ferry the child around and play a bit of Lego. You know you are getting a really knowledgeable childcare specialist who can advise the parents on all of the developmental stages of your little one, and we'll know which toys they should be playing with when as they get older, can help them with their schooling. Quite often, um, Norland nannies can then go into tutoring and governess positions. So really is the highest standard of nanny that you can get. 

Katie Nicholl: It's childcare on another level and not surprising that William and Kate use a Norland nanny, but ultimately when it comes to royal births, the lines between public and private are often blurred. And where Kate and William were often able to tow that line, participating in certain traditions like posing for photos outside the Lindo Wing, which of course they did again when Charlotte and Louis were born, Harry and Meghan made a point of doing things their own way.

Erin Vanderhoof: So when their son Archie was born on May 6th, 2019 there were no flashing cameras, no press photos outside the hospital. Instead, we got an announcement from Harry and an Instagram post. 

Prince Harry [Archival Audio]: I'm very excited to announce that Meghan and myself had a baby boy early this morning. A very healthy boy. Mother and baby are doing incredibly well. It's been the most amazing experience I can ever have possibly imagined. 

Katie Nicholl: I think it was evident from the beginning that they wanted to do things differently. Meghan apparently wanted a home birth, but for whatever reasons that didn't happen. And it was interesting that they chose to go to the Portland Hospital rather than the Lindo Wing. They didn't want to pose outside the hospital, but in fact, what they did was a different kind of protocal along with a brief interview two days after Archie's birth in St. George's Hall at Windsor Castle. That's how they chose to officially introduce their son to the world, and it said a lot. When it came to royal parenting, they were going to do things their way.

Tiffany Norris: You know, we are all used to, particularly the royal family, um, things being done in a certain way. And as British people, we like that tradition. We like that, that respect. You know, this is how it's always been done, and, and so when someone sort of tries to shake it up a little bit, it can be a little bit disconcerting. I know that the press over here have been negative about Harry and Meghan and how that they've, they've done everything and I think it's because some people have the opinion that they're very happy to be in the spotlight when it suits them, but then to sort of criticize the media when it doesn't work for them. But as I say, you know, the press is the press. They, they need to fill pages, so if ever they can create any controversy or any sort of debate, they're going to do that.

Erin Vanderhoof: It's funny, when you think back to George's birth, William and Kate actually did make a kind of radical decision as well. It just, you know, didn't get quite as much attention.

Katie Nicholl: Yeah, they really did, Erin, that decision to move in with the Middletons after George's birth was pretty radical. I mean, they spent the first few months of George's life living in Kate's family home. Now, admittedly, they're home at Kensington Palace, which at that time was Nottingham Cottage, was pretty small, but this was much more than just about space. I think they wanted to be in that tight knit family environment, and totally understandably, Kate wanted her mum by her side. 

Erin Vanderhoof: And in contrast, you know, Meghan's mom did come over from LA right before Archie's birth, but Meghan didn't have a lot of extended family in England. It was really just the small core unit and they chose to keep things a bit more private. Why do you think those two decisions were received so differently? 

Katie Nicholl: Well, I think it was a case of Harry and Meghan wanting to control the narrative. Obviously the birth of their baby was incredibly important to them. They wanted it to be on their terms. We actually didn't know it, but when the palace announced Meghan was in labor, she had in actual fact, had the baby and they were all back at Frogmore Cottage. And that rattled the press. This was very different to what the media had been accustomed to when it came to royal births. I remember there were journalists wanting to do live reporting, and literally not knowing what to say. But I think when everyone calmed down a bit and stepped back and looked at the situation, we did get more than we bargained for. We got a pretty decent interview from Harry and Meghan, a really lovely look at Archie. Um, and as if that wasn't enough, we then got that amazing and really historic picture of Harry, Meghan, and Archie with the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh and Meghan's mom. So actually, we got much more than we thought we were going to get. It was just a case of having to be a little bit patient with them. Them wanting to do things their way and in their own time. 

Erin Vanderhoof: Omid Scobie talks about this in the book he co-wrote with Carolyn Durand, _Finding Freedom_. Apparently, Meghan and Harry really wanted to be home from the hospital with the baby before the press knew, because they thought that that was going to be the safest way to handle things. And it wasn't until the Oprah interview that I think we figured out how much tension there was and that those months right before the birth had been so difficult for Meghan. 

Meghan Markle [Archival Audio]: Look, I was really ashamed to say it at the time, and ashamed to have to admit it to Harry especially, um, because I know how much loss he's suffered. But I knew that if I didn't say it, that I would do it. And I, I just didn't... I just didn't want to be alive anymore.

Katie Nicholl: It's such a vulnerable and heartbreaking moment in this interview where we're given a lot more context into the Sussex's mindset. Clearly they weren't going to go and pose outside the steps and do everything that Kate and Diana had done before them. Meghan just needed to get through that birth and get herself sorted out. And I think there was a part of Harry that was keen on outfoxing the media, but above that, prioritizing their health and wellbeing. Making sure their little boy was safe was the most important thing for them. 

Erin Vanderhoof: 100 percent. It was clearly the right choice for them. And again, I think this entire situation really relates back to that tension that we were talking about earlier. There is a trade off between duty and family and, you know, it's almost unavoidable. Meghan and Harry are trying to strike a different balance than the rest of the royal family, but fundamentally they're still playing the same game. 

Tiffany Norris: My personal opinion, and I would say this to any parent, is that you do what you want to do when it comes to your baby. You know, they shouldn't necessarily be dictated to, and if they didn't want to reveal photos of the baby straight away, then that's absolutely fine. You know, in the end they might be members of the royal family, but their number one role is being a parent. And that is what is important. So they have to make those choices that's right for them and their family.

Katie Nicholl: And when it comes to family, I think we're seeing William and Kate relax a lot more when it comes to access to their children. We're seeing more of their children at official engagements like the service of Thanksgiving for the Duke of Edinburgh, and the Easter Sunday service. That said there are still very clear boundaries in place. Paparazzi pictures will absolutely not be tolerated and you're not going to see a whole load of new images of the children. That's still reserved for birthdays and milestone moments, but we are definitely seeing more of the Cambridge children in public life. And I think that's for a number of reasons. Charlotte and George are older now. And Charlotte particularly seems very confident taking on that role on the public stage. You know, she'll play up for the cameras. George is a bit shyer, but William and Kate are clearly more comfortable and feel more confident having their children out in public, albeit on their terms. And I think they also recognize that to a degree, the children are also part of their currency. They are part of their dynasty. This image of them is the image of the future of the House of Windsor. 

Erin Vanderhoof: As for the future of the Sussex's, they're obviously going in a different direction. 

Reporter [Archival Audio]: Buckingham Palace has confirmed that the Duke and Duchess of Sussex will not be returning as working members of the royal family. Prince Harry and Meghan stepped down from royal duties last year and moved to the United States. The couple who are expecting their second child have been stripped of their patronages and honorary titles, which will be returned to the Queen and distributed elsewhere in the royal family. 

Erin Vanderhoof: While the move in January 2020, which was famously dubbed 'Megxit,' shocked plenty of people, apparently, including the Queen herself, it made a lot of sense when you consider their attitudes towards privacy and their previous experiences with the press. Their main motivation was, once again, their family.

Katie Nicholl: And i think this also comes down to Harry being the spare all over again. He's had more latitude, he's had more freedom, and he's been able to do things that William could never do. And so while William has made his children more accessible, almost because he has to, Harry was absolutely adamant that he wasn't going to do the same with Archie and Lilibet.

Erin Vanderhoof: Yeah, I think it was about six months after Lilibet was born that Harry and Meghan actually shared a photo that showed her image for the first time. And it was just a side view of her face in a holiday card. That- so it was really more of a glimpse. So the Sussex's continued to be extremely private when it comes to their children.

Katie Nicholl: And the problem, Erin, with getting just a glimpse of their little girl, is that the press, the media, are always going to want a little bit more. And I think the problem for the Sussex's is that in many ways, their obsession with privacy has become problematic. I mean, if you look at the action they've had to take they've, they've had to sue a number of paparazzi. William and Kate recognized that there is an appetite for images of their children. They may not like it, but they know it's a game they have to play. And so that is why we get these gorgeous images of their children, often usually taken by Kate. For the Sussex's, because we so rarely see their children, their every move, I mean, whether that's Meghan taking Archie to nursery, becomes news. 

Erin Vanderhoof: I think because the Sussex's are living in this weird rarefied world of celebrity wealth in California., The kids might actually wind up having a less normal childhood than the one that the Cambridge's are having an England. 

Katie Nicholl: Erin, that's a really interesting point. Who's going to have more freedom? I mean on the one hand, William and Kate are raising a future king, which of course comes with constraints, restrictions. All of the boundaries that, you know, Harry hates so much about the royal family. But when you think about it, I think George and Charlotte and Louis have a remarkably free and ordinary, and dare I say, normal life. I mean, I think their life is as normal as it gets for members of the royal family. 

Erin Vanderhoof: Completely. And Meghan and Harry have made all of their decisions seeking freedom for their children in some way. And for the time being at least, there are just so many more variables in terms of their future. You know, what their parents' jobs are going to look like, what kind of schools they go to, what kind of things that they pursue in their future. But, whatever the future holds, one thing is clear, both couples have enormous love for their children and they are well aware that a royal childhood is not easy. So in response, they've all made the choice to follow in Charles and Diana's footsteps and prioritize parenting every step of the way as much as they can.

Katie Nicholl: Next time on _Dynasty: the Windsors_, more talk on Harry and Meghan. What did the monarchy gain and what was lost when they decided to step back? What could their star power do to connect an out of touch institution to the hundreds of millions of people all around the world who still call themselves part of the Commonwealth? And how will the family proceed in their absence? 

Patrick Jephson: The contract between royal people and the public is that the royal people can expect to live in palaces, ride in coaches, and be called, Your Royal Highness if they fulfill public expectations of service and sacrifice. Where there is a mismatch between the privilege and the sacrifice, then the royal people are in trouble. 

Erin Vanderhoof: That's next on _Dynasty. Dynasty_ is hosted by Katie Nicholl and me, Erin Vanderhoof and is produced by _Vanity Fair_ in partnership with Somethin' Else. Lizzie Jacobs is our executive producer. Darby Dorras and Bryant Urstadt are our editors. Rob Dozier, Zoe Edwards, Cheeka Eyers, and Sylvie Lubow are our producers. 

Katie Nicholl: Ginny Bloom is our showrunner. Basak Erten and Jessica Jones are our associate producers, and Ike Egbetola, Lily Hambly and Peyton Hayes are our production coordinators. 

Erin Vanderhoof: This episode was engineered by Josh Gibbs and the theme song was composed by Woolly Music. Fact-checking was done by Sara Krolewski. _Dynasty_ was conceived by _Vanity Fair_ Executive Editor, Claire Howorth. Claire and Katey Rich are our staff editorial consultants. Thank you to our guests Carolyn Harris, Tina Brown, and Tiffany Norris. 

Katie Nicholl: If you love the show, be sure to rate, review, and follow on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. For more_ Dynasty_ visit vf.com/dynasty and you can follow _Vanity Fair_ on Instagram and Twitter @vanityfair.