Katie Nicholl: Strawberries and cream, pimm's, champagne; I love tennis. What about you, Erin? Are you much of a fan?

Erin Vanderhoof: Tennis is my favorite sport because it is all about drama, rivalry, and internal conflict. 

Katie Nicholl: Everything about it. It's such a great combination, but whether you love it or hate it, there was plenty of drama in this match.

Erin Vanderhoof: Oh yeah. The women's finals at Wimbledon in 2018, it intense. Serena Williams was back after giving birth to her daughter and she was playing in top form, but still she was bested by Angelique Kerber. 

Katie Nicholl: Yeah, it was a bad day for Serena, but an absolutely gripping match where the action wasn't just on center court because up in the royal box, there was a very different kind of power struggle going on. One involving one of Serena's good friends, Meghan Markle, of course now the Duchess of Sussex, and her new sister-in-law, the Duchess of Cambridge, Kate Middleton. 

Erin Vanderhoof: So we know that there was chatter in the press at this time about discord between the two of them, but none of it was happening in the open. And in fact, they actually kind of looked like they were having a good time up there in the box. This was their first solo outing together ever though, and to everyone at home, it looked like a move to squash the rumors of a cat fight that the tabloids were running with. What was happening behind the scenes?

Katie Nicholl: Well, the reality was, behind the sunny smiles and the sunglasses at Wimbledon, it was more than a catfight going on. The run-up to Meghan and Harry's wedding had been fraught with tensions, rouse behind the scenes, and really none of this had gotten any better after the Royal Wedding. In fact, I think it just got worse. This idea of the fab four that the media constructed really couldn't have been further from the truth. And along with these tensions and this sense of rivalry, I think was a sense that Harry and Meghan were keen to explore the idea of capitalizing on their own star power. It was very clear that the Sussex's and the Cambridge's had quite different visions for The Royal Foundation. And I think we were beginning to see Harry and Meghan not only explore their own star quality, but begin to think about how they might do things differently.

Erin Vanderhoof: We also know that the key to this was that Harry and William's relationship had reportedly been on the rocks for a while at this point. And Meghan was at the center of that. But back to the match, what was happening that day?

Katie Nicholl: Well, as you mentioned, Erin, this was Meghan and Kate's first solo outing together, but it wasn't a case of game set and match because behind the scenes there'd been quite a bit of a fallout before this joint appearance at Wimbledon. An argument at Kensington palace between Harry, Meghan, William, and Kate, I understand, and an attempt by Kate to go and make the peace and try and smooth things over. So she went over to Nottingham Cottage where Harry and Meghan were living at the time with a bouquet of flowers and a suggestion to Meghan that perhaps they attended Wimbledon together. The flowers didn't go down so well and nor did the invitation to go to Wimbledon. And Meghan told her that she didn't need her flowers or her invitation. She could get that by herself, thank you very much. 

Erin Vanderhoof: Behaving that way seems so uncharacteristic for the totally put together Meghan that we see, but I think now that we know that she was really struggling from the minute that she joined the family, it makes a little bit more sense. It was not smooth sailing adjusting to life as a royal and she was an outsider in every way. She's a biracial black woman, she's American, she's not from the world of the British elite. By 2018 she'd had the press pick a part her family and her personal life with some of the coverage like being overtly racist. Waves of harassment on social media, discord within the family, and, you know, maybe it's just my empathetic side coming out, but I can understand that a bouquet and a ticket to a tennis match just didn't quite feel like the right fix.

This moment at Wimbledon in 2018 highlights the uncomfortable reality of being a part of this family. It's hard enough to marry into any family and fit in. These people have their relationships that go back decades and you have to navigate all of these existing dynamics, but the added pressure of performing these relationships for the world and contending with public opinion is a recipe for disaster. At this point, Meghan had been through the wringer. 

Katie Nicholl: Well, she had, Erin, and I think even for an actress who was very confident and capable and very used to being in the spotlight, this was a real challenge. In this episode, we'll look at power through the eyes of the first truly independent woman to join the Windsor flock and after relinquishing that independence to the system, how she wrestled it back. 

Erin Vanderhoof: We'll hear from Vanity Fair Contributor, Michelle Ruiz on what some believed Meghan's racial background could do for the monarchy. And American Viscountess, Julie Montagu offers insight on assimilating into Britain's elite.

Katie Nicholl: Journalists, Afua Hagan sheds light on just how toxic the online environment can get around royal news coverage. And Royal Writer Omid Scobie lets us in on Harry and Meghan's decision to leave it all behind. 

Erin Vanderhoof: I'm Erin Vanderhoff.

Katie Nicholl: And I'm Katie Nicholl. This is _Dynasty: the Windsor's. _

Erin Vanderhoof: Episode four, "Racism in the Royals: Meghan Markle Exposes an Ugly Truth." 

Katie Nicholl: To understand Meghan and the royals, you have to go back to find out who she was and who she wanted to become. 

Erin Vanderhoof: Meghan was one of those kids who was always meant to be on the public stage. And she really wanted to make a difference. She grew up in Los Angeles and her mother still lives there in a neighborhood called View Park, which is often described as the black Beverly Hills.

Katie Nicholl: Her father, Thomas Markle, was a Hollywood lighting director for a number of well-known TV shows. He had met her mother Doria Ragland on set, so she was also working in the industry. She later went on to become a yoga instructor and social worker. 

Erin Vanderhoof: Thomas had been married before and had two children already, Yvonne, now called Samantha and Thomas Jr. Apparently Meghan didn't see much of them when she was growing up. She has described herself as growing up as an only child. Her parents split when she was still really small, but they did co-parent. They weren't poor, but they weren't super well off either. Still they work to send Meghan to an elite private Catholic high school. She's also famous for fighting Procter and Gamble when she was only 11. She saw an ad about women doing the dishes and she wrote the company a letter. _Nickelodeon News_ covered it at the time. 

Meghan Markle [Archival Audio]: When we first saw the commercial, I knew something had to be done because I was furious.

Commercial Audio: Women are fighting greasy pots and pans... 

Meghan Markle [Archival Audio]: And I said, 'wait a minute, how could somebody say that? I think I'll write a letter.' 

Erin Vanderhoof: She wrote that letter and made her first media appearance. Here's Michelle Ruiz, Royals Writer and Vanity Fair Contributor.

Michelle Ruiz: I love the idea of, and I see myself in a little 11 year old, who's like compulsively raising her hand and writing letters to the first lady and to _Nick News_ and, and to Procter and Gamble to complain about a sexist soap commercial. And using her voice and feeling empowered to do that from a young age. I think a lot of little type A, Tracy Flick sort of girls, we see ourselves in Meghan.

Katie Nicholl: Tracy Flick, a character played by Reese Witherspoon in the 1999 film, _Election,_ about high school politics, as a driven high school student who becomes the villain for trying way too hard. The movie trailer tagline, "never underestimate an overachiever."

Erin Vanderhoof: And many people like Michelle, and like me, can relate to somebody like Meghan. But a strong personality, unwavering drive, and a lot of confidence will always be difficult for some people to stomach. 

Michelle Ruiz: I think Meghan can be a kind of like, love her or hate her kind of person, because she's a strong personality. And I think that's what draws me to her. 

Katie Nicholl: Meghan has a strong personality and has always known where she wants to go in life and what she wants to achieve. And the confidence her parents instilled in her, coupled with the fact that she was very bright and well-educated, and had a whole ton of tenacity meant that she actually did go on to become a great success. Originally she toyed with a career in politics, but she'd always been drawn to the movie industry and her father's world, so when she decided to become an actress both her parents supported her and it wasn't easy. Meghan has written openly about the many knock-backs that she's had to overcome. But of course it was all worth it when she landed that dream role in the TV series, _Suits. _

Erin Vanderhoof: Right, _Suits_, a fascinating show about lawyers yelling at each other. 

Scene from "Suits": "Mike Ross? Hi. I'm Rachel Zane, I'll be giving you your orientation." "Wow, you're pretty." "Good. You've hit on me. We can get it out of the way that I'm not interested." "No, I'm sorry, I wasn't hitting on you." "Trust me..." 

Katie Nicholl: In 2015, Meghan was in a great place. She had a lead role in _Suits_ playing paralegal, Rachel Zane. She also had a successful blog called _The Tig_, which covered lifestyle, fashion, and beauty. She wasn't A-list by any means, but she was a very credible actress with an impressive Instagram following. 

Erin Vanderhoof: I think she represented a new kind of celebrity that really came up in this social media era. What she posted on Instagram seem equally important to her brand and her notoriety as her acting itself and her social media presence was quite key to her rise.

Katie Nicholl: Well, her social media platform gave her a global outreach, which was really important for her other passion in life: philanthropy. We know that charity work has always been a major part of her vision and she leveraged her name and her fame to make a real impact. 

Erin Vanderhoof: In fact, this probably led to her first big moment on this sort of political stage, well, as an adult. March 10th, 2015, Midtown Manhattan: a major event for UN Women. 

Reporter: Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome American TV and film actress and UN Women's advocate for political participation and leadership, Meghan Markle. 

Erin Vanderhoof: It's a few days after International Women's Day and Meghan Markle is about to make one of the most important public appearances of her career so far. Naturally, she's excited and nervous. Addressing world leaders would cause anybody to break into a sweat. 

Meghan Markle [Archival Audio]: Well, good evening. That doesn't feel like enough does it? It's just... great evening? Maybe that's better. UN secretary general, executive... 

Erin Vanderhoof: She was actually nervous. I mean almost blushing. 

Meghan Markle [Archival Audio]: Distinguished ladies and gentlemen, I am tremendously honored to be UN Women's Advocate for Political Participation and Leadership. I am proud to be a woman and a feminist. And this evening, I am extremely proud to stand before you on this significant day, which serves as a reminder to all of us of how far we've come, but also a mid celebration, a reminder of the road ahead. I want to tell you a story that will sort of give context...

Katie Nicholl: I think this moment is the most revealing about how Meghan views herself when she tells the story of her own life, it's that of an advocate. An activist even, and when you recognize that's how she would like to be regarded, I think you can understand her a whole lot better. 

Erin Vanderhoof: Michelle Ruiz interviewed Elizabeth Tuke, Meghan's former publicist. 

Michelle Ruiz: And once she did that, I think, you know, for a _Vanity Fair_ story that I reported, her former publicist sort of told me that wasn't really enough for her. That wasn't really fulfilling or feeding her to simply, you know, show up on set and act. 

Erin Vanderhoof: Michelle told us that Meghan would go on trips to Rwanda or India in her off time. And she worked with organizations like UN Women. Now you can kind of see how meeting somebody like Harry would be a perfect fit for Meghan's new vision of herself. 

Michelle Ruiz: So I think, at that point, her goal might've shifted to, you know, using her voice or using whatever status she had acquired to be in service of other people. Um, at this point, you know, I think marrying Prince Harry obviously gave her an opportunity to kind of flex that muscle. To flex that humanitarian muscle. 

Erin Vanderhoof: And Meghan was really great at it. Warm, engaging, passionate. The UN role was something she found meaning in. 

Katie Nicholl: And because she's always been a brilliant networker, Meghan had connections in high places; Justin Trudeau, for example, Canada's Prime Minister. One of her biggest moments was being photographed alongside Trudeau for a _Vanity Fair_ shoot featuring future world leaders and Meghan was there in her capacity as an ambassador for the charity, One Young World. Now this was back in 2016, but you get a real taste of who Meghan is. And even back then, she had a great little black book of contacts. 

Michelle Ruiz: Meghan went to one charity event with Serena Williams and kind of became good friends with her after that. I think you can look at it as that she's making a concerted effort to make connections and perhaps she is, which there'd be nothing wrong with that. Or it's that she's a magnanimous person and a connector who, when she is in these situations and meeting all sorts of people, she forges connections with them. 

Katie Nicholl: As Omid Scobie wrote in his definitive book on Harry and Meghan's royal journey, _Finding Freedom,_ along with coauthor Carolyn Durand, it was these connections that led Meghan to meet Prince Harry in London. She was on a promotional trip making appearances on behalf of Ralph Lauren and friends hooked her up with a stay at Soho House and a date with Harry at the exclusive hotel. 

Erin Vanderhoof: Her first marriage had ended a couple of years earlier and she was embracing new experiences. She went on a date with a guy that seemed to be just as hopeful, optimistic, and kind as she is. And she had all the experience to be the type of partner, wife, and mother that Harry was looking for. And she could still be an advocate. She might not have thought about what it would be like to become one of the most written about women in the world, but she had to assume that she'd have the power to make a real difference. And that's exactly what she wanted to do. 

Katie Nicholl: Let's just rewind a bit because Harry wasn't just a guy, and this wasn't just a regular date. He was the most eligible bachelor in the world. One of the most famous people on the planet, but there absolutely was a genuine connection. And apparently after just a couple of dates, Harry took Meghan to Botswana where I'm told according to a source that knows them well, they have this moment together where Meghan said to Harry, "Together we can change the world." And I think she absolutely believed that they could, and I think Harry believed that too. I mean, he had been looking for that person for a long time. But, power and influence doesn't come without a price. And I'm not sure Meghan had any idea just how steep that price would be because royalty isn't intended to serve radical change like that. Like changing the world overnight. It's about stability and continuity. 

Omid Scobie: We can see from her life story that she's given a damn about the wider world for a very long time.

Katie Nicholl: As Royal Editor for _Harper's Bazaar_ and part of the Royal Press Pack, Omid witnessed Meghan in action firsthand right from the beginning. 

Omid Scobie: That authenticity that she brought to the role was really what made her special in what she did, because, you know, as we've seen with other royal family members, it doesn't always come so naturally. It's what's expected from you, but whether it comes from the heart or not is something that very rarely happens. But I think with Meghan was this, I guess ability to put herself out there regardless of what she was going to receive in return. So even when the press would criticize her for something, she wasn't going to change that for anyone because that's done her very well in life up until this point. And so I think as a modern royal she embraced all of the things that we care about in the modern world.

Erin Vanderhoof: Meghan truly is a modern public figure. This self-made multitalented biracial woman. And when you square this with the institution of a hereditary monarchy, what you have is a sort of public influence from the old world clashing with the new one. 

Katie Nicholl: Yes, and Erin, I think a lot of people saw this as a really good thing. So when Harry and Meghan's relationship went public, most people felt this was an opportunity for the monarchy to become more reflective of what Britain was in the 21st Century. The queen has always supported diversity throughout the commonwealth, and the fact that the UK is a melting pot of so many races and cultures is something she's enormously proud of and has publicly spoken about many times. But, this was a senior member of the royal family. Her grandson marrying a woman of dual heritage and so it was a big deal. 

Erin Vanderhoof: Right. The royal family as an institution is so connected to the UK's history of colonialism, and so many moments of imperial history are a part of the family's personal story. But, Meghan joining was a sign that it could be capable of really fundamental change. It offered hope to a lot of people, but I think it was personal for the estimated 14% of the country that comes from a non-white background. Here's Michelle Ruiz again. 

Michelle Ruiz: I think Meghan marrying into the family and their royal wedding held so much promise that the monarchy could evolve with the presence of this woman. But I think, you know, in hindsight, when we go back to that moment, I think a lot of people, particularly black women, have told me that they really didn't ever have that much hope at all that she was going to be able- that one individual was going to be able to shift centuries and centuries of entrenched racism and colonialism. 

Erin Vanderhoof: It's a pessimistic thing to say, but I feel like I understand it. I remember the optimism and the joy that was everywhere when Barack Obama was elected back in 2008. But I think at the same time, it already seemed obvious to African-Americans that it wasn't going to fix, say the racial wealth gap or secure all voting rights. The symbol was important, but it by itself would never be enough. 

Katie Nicholl: I think you're right, Erin, and I think that perhaps the idea that this mixed race marriage, the first in the house of Windsor's history was going to change everything overnight of a history of colonialism and empire was overly optimistic and perhaps a little bit unrealistic. What I think the British people saw in this union was the start of a new chapter. We were finally seeing Britain reflected in the royal family. In Harry and Meghan, and that felt really optimistic and exciting. 

Erin Vanderhoof: Exactly, but at the same time, if we were judging based on the initial media reactions to their relationship, maybe we would have been more prepared for what happened next.

Katie Nicholl: Well, amidst the excitement over their relationship, there was a concerning narrative being spun in some of the media, which focused on Meghan's race. And Harry was so incensed by some of the things being written and said about his girlfriend that in November 2016, he released an unprecedented statement saying that a line had been crossed. 

Reporter: His girlfriend, Meghan Markle, has been subject to a wave of abuse and harassment. Some of this has been very public. The smear on the front page of a national newspaper, the racial undertones of comment pieces, and the outright sexism and racism of social media trolls, and web article comments.

Michelle Ruiz: I think the press coverage of Meghan in the UK out the gate sent a very unsubtle message that she was not of this world. She was not of the British white upper-crust elite royal world. There were headlines that maligned Meghan's mom, Doria, who is black, as being quote "straight out of Compton." Automatically portraying her as living in a quote "gang scarred neighborhood," and sort of asking in this very cloying way if Harry would be dropping by for tea. You know, that's a crystal clear diminishing of Meghan's family as unworthy based on her and her mom's race. 

Erin Vanderhoof: Michelle Ruiz noted just a few examples of what was being published. It didn't really matter that there was a lot of support and love for Meghan in other areas or that some of it was just bad reporting. It was nothing like Meghan had experienced before and nothing the palace had ever experienced before, and they didn't know how to deal with it. It was out of control, and race was now the elephant in the room.

Katie Nicholl: And as Prince Harry's Communication Secretary himself said, it wasn't just about what newspapers and magazines and commentators in those publications were saying, it was the trolling that it inspired online. 

Erin Vanderhoof: I think the magnitude of the trolling was still so new to so many of us around this time and I think it's helpful to put Meghan's arrival on the world's scene in context. They went public just a few months after the 2016 Brexit vote, which was accompanied by a rising sense of nationalism and an increased tension in Britain. Harry made his statement about his relationship with Meghan in the same month that Donald Trump won the presidency in the US. These were complicated moments in both countries politics, and, you know, we're really dealing with the country's foundational issues here. But looking back, we know for sure that social media made it so much worse and so much more contentious. In Meghan's case, the critical press coverage could set off a wave of harassment on social media platforms, starting a cycle that just continued. It's a dynamic that also affected people outside of the family. 

Afua Hagan: As a black woman living in Britain, I don't feel great about Britain at the moment. 

Erin Vanderhoof: Afua Hagan is a Scottish-Ghanaian journalist and broadcast presenter who regularly covers the royals. 

Afua Hagan: We have not progressed to a point where, I mean, we're still discussing if things are racist. That doesn't make me feel good about living in this country, about contributing to the discourse, that people still don't quite, quite seem to understand the concept of racism being really, really bad. 

Erin Vanderhoof: Afua thinks Meghan's experience illuminates how far Britain needs to go in learning how to address racism and racial inequities. It also reflects a conversation about the nature of racism that has roiled American society for decades. 

Afua Hagan: There's a real hangover from what happens with Meghan and Harry, and what happens with the Sewell report and racism after the Euro's that leaves such a bad taste in my mouth. And in the mouths of loads of black people in the UK. And I think to myself, you know, are we ever going to get to a point where Britain will ever see black people as British, British enough for them? 

Erin Vanderhoof: Here Afua's talking about two really painful recent upsets over race that happened in the UK. After last July's Euro Cup Final, black players on England's national team received a torrent of racist abuse online. It was really bad. However, just a few months earlier, a team led by consultant Dr. Tony Sewell released this major report looking into the education system that made headlines for the conclusions that Britain is no longer, and I quote, "deliberately rigged against ethnic minorities." It makes for a really uneasy juxtaposition. For a lot of people of color, the effects of race hatred still feel real. It's especially apparent on social media where people can behave in a way that they would not act in person just because they're anonymous. 

Katie Nicholl: What you say is really interesting, Erin, and, uh, you talk about the effects of race hatred still being felt as very real, and that awful moment after the Euro Cup Final, which just felt so horrible. And actually one of the first people to come out and condemn that behavior was Prince William. There's been some very distasteful, and as you point out, often anonymous commentary online. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and I'm all for having conversations, even difficult ones, but let's do it respectfully. 

Erin Vanderhoof: It takes us back to a question that feels so important for understanding what really happened to Meghan. There's so much affection for her in the public and also behind the palace walls, so why did everything get so sour? It happened for a few reasons, but the onslaught of hatred was key. It's ironic because Meghan, as a mixed race American was really adept at navigating the US's specific context. She has been able to talk about race in an inclusive and comforting way without sacrificing the truth. But once the story got out of control, her skill wasn't enough and the regular palace rules for shaping your public image just didn't apply any more. I hope we're all going to look back on that period of time as a real low point in public discourse, because the same frustrating conversations were happening on every channel, but we weren't getting anywhere. Here's Piers Morgan fighting with Alex Beresford on_ Good Morning Britain_. 

Alex Beresford [Archival Audio]: Look, Piers, it's their lived experience. And again, this is, this is where the confusion comes in, because, you know, how do you sometimes identify covert racism? It's actually quite hard because it's not there for you- 

Piers Morgan [Archival Audio]: But Alex, on that one is not true. It's not covert racism.

Reporter: But Piers what you're saying is they're are facts- 

Piers Morgan [Archival Audio]: Right. 

Reporter: And what Alex is saying is there is an experience and a perception of those... 

Afua Hagan: When you go on and you do these debates, and often it's a lot of setting the record straight. It's a lot of, no that didn't happen, no they didn't say that, this is the reality, and then afterwards the discourse will go on for days about what you said.

Erin Vanderhoof: Afua Hagan again. 

Afua Hagan: And 50% of it will be people like Sussex squad and supporters of Meghan and Harry going, 'Yay, thank you for putting this record straight.' And 50% of it will be like, you know, 'you only like Meghan because you're black and she's black and we don't need black people in the royal family.' Can you imagine? You know, I'm just a commentator, journalist, reporter who talks about the royals. Imagine being them and like the, the amount of trolls that I have to deal with, it must, she must have that times a million. 

Erin Vanderhoof: Michelle Ruiz thinks we were asking the wrong questions. 

Michelle Ruiz: I think the question was out there, like, could this institution, the same institution that's responsible for the transatlantic slave trade, colonizing large swaths of the world, truly embrace a black woman among its ranks. But I think the question is equally, you know, could that black woman stand to accept that institution. This was never going to work. And one woman, one biracial woman, really did not stand a chance, nor could she single-handedly shoulder the responsibility of modernizing the British Monarchy. 

Katie Nicholl: I think some might question whether it was Meghan's place to single handedly modernize the monarchy. I mean, I would say that the Queen's done a pretty good job of that over the past seven decades. The institution has modernized and evolved, but admittedly not at lightning speed. Meghan did have the potential to bring about real change, and I think that's the saddest thing in this whole story. I was with her and Harry in South Africa when they visited the township in Nyanga and Meghan addressed the people as a woman of color. That was a first and it was wonderful. There was no one else in the royal family today who could say that except for Meghan. It wasn't political. It wasn't controversial. It was powerful and it was brilliant. 

Erin Vanderhoof: One of the highest priorities for the Windsors, as an institution, is to remain apolitical. Staying above the fray of politics and civil discourse. But just by being a black woman, and by virtue of her advocacy work, Meghan was inherently a political figure and she was going to be seen that way whether she intended it or not. So, in order for this delicate balance to remain, something was going to have to change. Meghan or the institution. Was changing something Meghan was willing to do?

Afua Hagan: I think what we saw was her power completely taken away from her. And now, like the way that Meghan has taken her power back is bloody inspirational to be honest. For her to step out and just say, you know what actually I'm not doing this. 

Katie Nicholl: After the break we talked to an American who understands the challenges of assimilating into Britain's elite as an outsider.

Erin Vanderhoof: In order to be able to play her part and play it well, there is a lot for Meghan to learn. Unlike Kate who was British and at least had the cultural background and understanding of the monarchy and what it means to people in Britain, Meghan claims she didn't do any research about Harry before they were introduced.

Katie Nicholl: Yeah, I'm just going to say, Erin, I find that a little hard to believe because I think we all just google everything now. It's par for the course. I mean, if she genuinely didn't, then I think that's real restraint. Maybe she just wants to give him the benefit of the doubt. I mean, you'd have to have your head in the sand, wouldn't you, not to have seen the headlines about Vegas and everything else. And maybe she didn't want to color her opinions about Harry before she met him by googling him. Let's also not forget this is a woman who definitely knew who the royal family was. As a young girl, she'd gone to see Buckingham Palace, um, according to her biographer, Andrew Morton, she was fascinated in the life of Diana, so I'm just going to take that comment with a pinch of salt. If I'm allowed to. 

Erin Vanderhoof: I think she probably knew the rough outlines, but like me, I bet the longer she was around the royals, she was constantly stunned by how much she didn't actually know. And besides, I know I've had very limited experience actually being in a hierarchy, and I imagine she didn't know how bad it would actually make her feel to be in one. And let's face it, although we share a language, they're enduring cultural ideas that don't translate on both sides of the pond and stereotypes that still color opinions. Brits don't always have the warmest feelings about Americans and vice versa.

Katie Nicholl: I think it's fair to say there were cultural barriers. By her own admission, Meghan has said that she didn't really understand what royal life would demand of her and the full implications of her role and her title. She didn't have a huge amount of time to adjust. You know, Kate had almost a decade to learn the nuances of royal life and to understand what it was going to entail. And Meghan didn't have that and the reality is royal life is very different. 

Julie Montagu: So I came over to the UK right at the start of, of basically the turn of the century, 2000, and I came over for my job. 

Erin Vanderhoof: Julie Montagu is one of the few people that can truly understand the cross cultural chasm that Meghan had to traverse when she was stepping into her role.

Julie, better known to some as the "American Viscountess" on social media, is from a small town in Illinois. She was dating her now husband, Luke Montagu, for months before she even learned that he had a title: Viscount Hinchingbrooke, and would one day become the Earl of Sandwich. And it took even longer for her to fully grasp what that would mean for her relationship.

Julie Montagu: He paid for something on his credit card, and I looked on it and I said, "Why does your credit card say Viscount Hinchingbrooke?" I mean, that is a mouthful right there. And he looked at me in somewhat horror and said, "It's Viscount Hinchingbrooke." I remember him sitting me down saying, "well, I'm a part of the aristocracy," and I'm going to be honest with you, I did not know that the aristocracy still existed. I actually said to him, "What, what do you mean? It still exists over here?" He was like, "Uh, yeah, Julie, there's, you know, Dukes and Duchesses, and Earls and Countesses, and marquess and marchionesses." And I was like, "Wait, what? This is a whole new world."

Katie Nicholl: The British aristocracy, the peerage is different from royalty. They're part of a historic hierarchy with titles and property bestowed by past monarchs and not necessarily part of the royal family bloodline, but the world they live in today is still one of upper-class expectation, wealth, and tradition. And Julie had to learn to fit into that world very quickly. Especially when it came to complex manners and protocol.

Julie Montagu: I wish there was an instruction manual. In fact, maybe I'll write one one day. I wanted to learn. So I asked a lot of questions. It was me listening out to see how my husband was addressed and how he would address people. It was me looking around to see how people passed the salts. Like you would never pass the salt directly across the table if the person across the table asked for the salt. It needed to go all the way around the table. One person, one person, one person, one person, until it gets, you know, you could have a table of 18 people, and by the time the salt gets you, you would have eaten your meal. There's an assumption that everything we read, that's what it's like in royal or aristocratic life. That's totally not true, and it's not, it's like anything, you can't become an expert on anything until you learn on the job. 

Erin Vanderhoof: We know that Meghan told Oprah that Harry had told her about curtsying first, but Julie can understand why the Duchess of York would be roped in for that lesson. 

Julie Montagu: I totally a hundred percent believe her when she said that the Duchess of York took her aside to teach her how to curtsy to the queen. Oh, for sure. That's absolutely what happened. What do you think, Harry is going to sit there on the side and be like, "Hey yeah, so granny's coming today. I'm going to teach you how to curtsy." Harry doesn't curtsy, so how would he even know how to curtsy? Do you know what I mean? I think if you look at Meghan's story, it's a story of a girl working really hard. You know, that is the American dream. That can do attitude, so that's the America that I grew up in. 

Erin Vanderhoof: I think that definitely speaks to why, I think, so many Americans have taken it really personally that Meghan was received this way in the British press. I have a lot of critiques that I can make about, you know, the idea of the American dream, and I don't think it's a perfect thing. I don't even really think it's that real sometimes. But in meaningful ways, Meghan reflects a lot of our society's profess values and it felt really jarring to see that be disregarded so off-hand. The American dream is built on an idea of self invention. That you can be anything you want to be if you work hard enough. A land of opportunity. And whether Meghan fully ascribed to this or not, she seems to embody it. The conviction in your own potential. It's not that Meghan couldn't do those things in the UK, and wasn't generally praised for them, because she was. But the parameters of success and access are different when it comes to the upper classes.

Katie Nicholl: I think the idea of new money versus old money gets at this cultural difference. In some circles in Britain, it's not enough to have the money to get into the room. Your background and your class and pedigree really determine if you're taken seriously. We're talking about a hierarchy of historic dynasties. Nearly 1000 years in the case of the British Royal family. But held to a totally different standard and change, social mobility, someone from the outside world coming into that world is a rare and difficult pill to swallow for some. We saw this when Kate Middleton joined the family. And again, differently with Meghan. Here's Michelle Ruiz again. 

Michelle Ruiz: The phrase social climber with respect to her is, has always been very bothersome to me because I think, you know, that is really ladden with both sexism and racism. I think we, you know, we talk about white men who elevate their station in life as pulling themselves up by their bootstraps or being upstarts. But for a biracial woman who is ambitious and goes to college and make something of herself on a variety of levels, she's a social climber. You know, it sends a very unsubtle message that you are not supposed to, a woman like her is not supposed to break out of her preordained station in life.

Erin Vanderhoof: Meghan is someone who seems like she prefers being in the driver's seat in her life. Staying in one's place just doesn't seem like it's in her nature. So let's fast forward to March 2021. 

Katie Nicholl: Viewers around the world watched as, Meghan, Duchess of Sussex, sits opposite Oprah. It's a year since she and Harry stepped down from their royal roles and left the UK and Meghan is pregnant with their second child. 

Meghan Markle [Archival Audio]: I've always valued independence. I've always been outspoken, especially about women's rights. I mean, that's the sad irony of the last four years is I've advocated for so long for women to use their voice, and then I was silent. Um-

Oprah [Archival Audio]: Were you silent or were you silenced? 

Meghan Markle [Archival Audio]: The latter.

Reporter: Here's another word to add to the list of how you described last night, and we'll begin there, explosive. The explosive interview touched on so many issues, including race, mental health, and what appears to be a deep rift in the royal family. 

Katie Nicholl: The internet goes into meltdown. This is the scoop of the decade drawing in 17.1 million viewers for CBS alone. And what the couple said in the interview was explosive. There were two standout moments, which were catastrophic for the royal family. The big bombshells we all know. Meghan claimed that she was so miserable within the institution that she felt suicidal when she was pregnant with Archie, and she and Harry claimed that a member of the royal family had raised concerns about the color of their unborn babies skin. But there were other claims leveled against the royals too. Harry said that they'd been cut off financially by his family. He claimed his brother and his father were trapped by the institution and that he and Meghan had no choice but to leave the royal family because they didn't feel heard, supported, or protected. It was worse than anything the palace had anticipated, but the response when it came a few days later, was deliberately measured. The queen released a succinct statement. Just 60 words long with three brilliant words that made her opinion on it all crystal clear. "Recollections may vary." The interview marked a turning point for Harry and his relationship with his family. 

Erin Vanderhoof: Many of the claims that they made were disputed, but what's undeniable is Meghan's conviction and performance made it a pop culture moment. Here's Afua Hagan again.

Afua Hagan: I think what we saw was her power completely taken away from her. You know, like Oprah is so, so famously said, and I love it. You know, were you silent or were you silenced? And that, and that was it. And now, like the way that Meghan has taken her power back is bloody inspirational to be honest. You know, for her to step out and just say, you know what, actually, I'm not doing this. I'm not doing this. I'm not going to be in this family where I feel like my life is threatened, or my child's life is threatened, or I'm telling you I'm suicidal. She said, no, I'm not having it. And her husband said, you know what? No, I'm not having it either.

Katie Nicholl: To be part of the Windsor dynasty is to submit to a complex institution. It's not just joining a family, it's becoming part of a tightly managed organization beholden to a nation, a government, and to a degree, a PR image and a press strategy. You're instructed to stay within the boundaries of what is believed to ensure the survival of the dynasty. And for most family members, this is a done deal. The expectation is that you go with it. 

Erin Vanderhoof: For Meghan and Harry, they had to weigh this duty versus the safety and wellbeing of themselves and their children. Omid Scobie documented this journey in _Finding Freedom_. 

Omid Scobie: I think the Oprah interview helps many people understand why the couple needed to step away from their roles. I think there was perhaps a feeling, and I would imagine that prior coverage has sort of fed into that a bit, that this was just a spoiled pair that wanted to do everything their way and that's why it just was no longer working for them within the institution. But of course we heard from the couple that there were far bigger issues to deal with, and issues that still to this day have never quite been cleared up, particularly when it comes to racism. And I think for that, or for many people around the world, hearing that brought a sort of new level of respect for the couple actually breaking away from their royal roles and making such a dramatic change in order to improve their lives. 

Katie Nicholl: So, Erin, I guess the million dollar question is, was it all worth it?

Erin Vanderhoof: What Meghan and Harry were looking for is a little bit of freedom and the money to make that freedom worth it. And when you look at their lives now and what they have, they have these careers that they're getting into that allow them to have a voice, make themselves be heard. They have a beautiful house. They have a family that they can keep together. They have friends around and they have all of the things that I think young people are looking for. And for me, I think that stability, security, and love is so much more important than titles. 

Katie Nicholl: What they did took a lot of guts. Standing down as working members of the royal family, and let's face it, their royal currency is still their biggest ticket. And they have those titles. No one's taken them away from them. They remain members of the royal family. But standing down, giving it all up, getting their freedom, it's certainly came at a cost. It's come at a cost of Prince Harry whose relationship with his family really now is in tatters. Now in 2022, Meghan is playing a new role, or rather a re-imagining of an old one. Advocate, celebrity, wife, and now mother. The Sussex's are a family of four and have settled in California where Meghan grew up and made her name.

Omid Scobie: It's always nice to be asked what Meghan is really like, because that was really one of the reasons why we wrote _Finding Freedom_ in the first place. 

Katie Nicholl: Omid Scobie again. 

Omid Scobie: Who we see today working in California as the Duchess of Sussex, sort of steps away from her royal role, someone who's incredibly determined, family orientated that cares about what they do. And as a result of that, we're seeing the work that she's doing have an incredible impact on the world stage, and so to not have that within the royal family seems like such a loss. 

Erin Vanderhoof: Meghan is the CEO of her own family firm now. Forging her own path like she's always done. Using her voice to advocate for issues like paid parental leave in the US, meeting with organizers, and lobbying politicians. Along with her husband, she's nabbed development deals with Netflix and Spotify, and even a voiceover gig for a Disney movie. She's making the rules. Meghan seems much more at home sitting in an armchair across from Ellen DeGeneres then she was really ever able to be at those royal engagements. She's capitalizing on the most powerful tool in her disposal again, her own image. And she's doing it in a way that the monarchy and royal life just would not have allowed. In many ways, she's following the model set by her late mother-in-law.

Princess Diana [Archival Audio]: My first priority will continue to be our children, william and Harry, who deserve as much love and care and attention as I am able to give. As well as an appreciation of the tradition into which they were born. 

Katie Nicholl: That was of course, Princess Diana, one, if not the most beloved royal mother ever to grace the house of Windsor. Leaving pretty big shoes for Meghan and Kate to fill. In the next episode we will consider the influence and power of royal mothers.

Tina Brown: Her desire was to have them understand their duty, and understand that was ahead of them, but also feel that they could be part of the human race, frankly, which was an enormous contribution she made to their lives.

Tiffany Norris: You know, we are all used to, particularly the royal family, um, things being done in a certain way. And as British people, we like that tradition. We like that, that respect, you know, this is how it's always been done, and, and so when someone sort of tries to shake it up a little bit, it can be a little bit disconcerting. 

Katie Nicholl: Next time on _Dynasty: the Windsors._ 

Erin Vanderhoof: _Dynasty_ is hosted by Katie Nicholl and me, Erin Vanderhoff, and is produced by _Vanity Fair_ in partnership with Somethin' Else. Lizzie Jacobs is our executive producer, Darby Dorras, and Bryant Urstadt are our editors. Rob Dozier, Zoe Edwards, Cheeka Eyers, and Sylvie Lubow are our producers. Ginny Bloom is our showrunner. Basak Erten and Jessica Jones are our associate producers. And Ike Egbetola, Liz Hambley, and Peyton Hayes are our production coordinators. This episode was engineered by Josh Gibbs and the theme song was composed by Woolly Music. Fact-checking was done by Sara Krolewski. _Dynasty_ was conceived by _Vanity Fair_ Executive Editor, Claire Howorth. Claire and Katey Rich are our staff editorial consultants. Thank you to our guests Michelle Ruiz, Julie Montagu, Omid Scobie, and Afua Hagan. If you love the show, be sure to rate, review, and follow on Apple Podcasts. For more _Dynasty _visit vf.com/dynasty, and you can follow _Vanity Fair_ on Instagram and Twitter @vanityfair.