Katey Rich: Hello, and welcome to _Little Gold Men_ the award season podcast from _Vanity Fair_. 

Intro: "It's such an honor to present this next award." "And here are the nominees." "And the Oscar goes to..." "And the Oscar goes to..." "And I can't deny the fact that you like me. Right now, you like me." "I'm the king of the world!" "There's a mistake, _Moonlight_, you guys won best picture."

Katey Rich: Hi, I am Katey Rich, and I'm here for this interview episode with David Canfield. 

David Canfield: Hi Katey. 

Katey Rich: Uh, David, it's the thick of any season that we've been talking to TV people for so long, so it's a real pleasure to get to talk about a movie and get to talk about Dale Dickey, who inevitably has been in something that somebody loves and seems to be getting a real showcase in the movie you're talking about today.

David Canfield: Yes, a leading role for an actor who most know from second long parts in a lot of TV shows and movies, uh, sometimes minutes or minutes long. Um, but yeah, it's a, it's a beautiful movie. Uh, _A Love Song _that premiered, uh, at Sundance, uh, she's the lead along with Wes Studi, it's a middle aged romance. It's got some shades of _Nomadland,_ uh, she plays a widow who, um, really finds a new sense of meaning over the course of the movie. Uh, but it's got beautiful shots of the American west. They shot it near Telluride and Dale Dickey is, uh, pretty extraordinary in it I would say. 

Katey Rich: When I think of her I think of her being intimidating, usually. I think a lot of that comes from _Winter's Bone_, which is one of the first things I remember seeing her in, uh, but also _Palm Springs_, which she's really funny in, um, and, but it sounds like this is a, a real new shade of what she can do. 

David Canfield: Yeah. I mean, we definitely talked a lot about the intimidating nature of her, most of her past roles, she said that people will run away from her on the street sometimes. I mean, I remember one of my first, like moments of awareness of her was when she crushed the man in _Breaking Bad_ with an ATM machine as a kind of iconic visual for a, again, like a second long performance for Dale Dickey. Um, but yeah, this is a completely different key for her. And, uh, she was very aware of that. We, we also did talk about _Winter's Bone_ a lot because she won the Independent Spirit award for that. Uh, it was a real break for her in her career. Um-

Katey Rich: I mean, she is terrifying in _Winter's Bone_. Like, I don't know if people, if, if you remember that movie at all, I think you remember her.

David Canfield: Yes, there is a, there's a bashing scene that is quite vivid. Um, but yeah, she she's proven she doesn't just play terrifying characters with this movie, safely saying. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. Um, yeah and she's also on _A _League of Their Own, which I'm hoping you talk about as well. I've seen a little bit of that and it's, uh, she's, she's an authority figure, but maybe not as scary and it's a really charming performance in that too. 

David Canfield: We, we absolutely did. And it is nice that this year she's, you know, she's in pretty much every episode of _League of Their Own_ and she is the lead of this movie. And that is by far the most exposure she's ever experienced as an actor, despite being in this business for many decades and it is something she's getting used to. Um, it was definitely one of the more off the cuff interviews I've done for this podcast. I say it in the best way. Um, and just a really delightful human who is, I think, learning to appreciate a moment that, uh, took a long time to come. 

Katey Rich: And I think what we learn over and over is there's, you know, it seems like every year there's someone who has this similar thing. They've been working for decades and all of a sudden they have one thing that really makes them pop. So, you know, knowing... we know her and we know to look forward to her, but it seems like, uh, her big breakthrough moment really could be now or anytime soon. 

David Canfield: Yes. Let's hope that this is the first of many leaders for Dale Dickey.

Katey Rich: Yes. Uh, so let's hear your conversation with Dale Dickey.

David Canfield: Dale Dickey, you're here, uh, to talk about _A Love Song_, which gives you a, a well deserved and perhaps rare leading role. Um, you're nodding. 

Dale Dickey: Thank you for saying well deserved, but yes, rare is true. 

David Canfield: Um, what is the feeling being the face of, of a film, especially one that was so well received out of Sundance, um, and, and continues to find a lot of love.

Dale Dickey: It's a really new thing for me. Little overwhelming. Um, it's lovely to have this opportunity. Uh, Max really, you know, he wrote a, a middle-aged love story and the fact that Wes and I are both- Wes Studi and I are both sort of highly weathered scarred faces, it's... we were the perfect people for these, these two outdoors roamers and, um, I, I, I hit the lotto. I lucked out. It's a wonderful script and incredibly gifted director. 

David Canfield: Yeah, it's beautifully made. For me, you are an actor who makes an impression in every project no matter the size of the part, which at times can be quite small. And I saw that this film's director, Max Walker-Silverman, he mentioned, um, wrote you a letter, right? Uh, asking you to play the lead and, and describing what your work has meant to him. Is that right?

Dale Dickey: Yeah. I mean, there's, there's just nothing more heartfelt to get a letter from a young filmmaker. And I, I watched his two short films before this, and I knew he had a real gift and just his script alone was so poetic and simple and, and beautiful. The letter was enough to just say, I'll do it. I don't even even read the script. It was so flattering, but, um, I lucked out. 

David Canfield: As someone who's been in this business as a working actor for a long time, I'm curious just like what it meant to, to have the letter, to see maybe the kind of impact you can have on a filmmaker and that your work has resonated in that way, yeah, what did that feel like? 

Dale Dickey: It really is a it's, it's a, it's a beautiful, heartfelt gift that I take to heart if someone takes the time to write you, uh, a letter saying how, how much they admire your work and why you're so perfect for this script. It's, you know, I've, I worked with more and more young filmmakers and I, I, my agents over the years, you know, if I'm not missing a big money job, because I have to take money jobs, you know, when they come around, but, uh, young filmmakers have reached out and student films and, and I'm like, if I have the time, I, I wanna do it. I like working with young, young filmmakers. So, um, you know, it makes me feel a little old, like I've been around a while, but it's nice that I've made some kind of impression on, on, you know, these are our filmmakers of tomorrow and, uh, we need new writers and new voices. So, um, yeah, it warms me heart. It makes me feel really good, um, to, to be wanted and then to have somebody put this faith in me, um, that I could carry the film. Uh, I was terribly insecure about it and very nervous if I could handle it. And I was up, I wanted the challenge. You know, when you're scared of something, you gotta do it, but Max was so wonderful and a terrific crew.

David Canfield: Yeah. So, so how did you find that experience of carrying a movie with Wes and, and finding the rhythms of the, of the story and the tone with Max and Wes? What was the experience of making the movie like for you? 

Dale Dickey: It, it, it was really glorious. It was hot. We were outdoors the whole time. 

David Canfield: It look, it looks hot.

Dale Dickey: Yeah, it was very hot. We, we filmed on a Miramonte reservoir, which is like an hour southwest of Telluride. It's a place where Max grew up and, um, I was on, we all had to quarantine in Telluride. Oh, it was so hard. Um, then- I mean, it's a beautiful place if you're gonna quarantine. 

David Canfield: It's a beautiful place. 

Dale Dickey: And then, then we moved to this little tiny town of Norwood where the crew was in two different ranch houses. We, we were in big bubbles and then when Wes joined us a week later, Wes and I shared a ranch house, but they brought everything to us. We did not go out. You know, we each had individual cars to drive the half hour to set. Um, and we were masked entirely the whole time. And particularly difficult for the crew in the heat, but, you know, Max Max came out of NYU film school and he brought a lot of those kids with him. A cinematographer and some that were in different disciplines or came after him. But all those kids had worked together. So it's a really well-oiled machine. And I, I just knew we could trust everybody and everybody- you're so passionate, you know, there's a, they're not jaded yet. There's a passion, a beautifulness about young people making art. And, um, so it's good for me to be around and, uh, work on my craft and learn, learn new things. Um, but Wes was a- Wes and I got along just brilliantly right away. We both have same politics. We watch _Jeopardy_ and, um, uh, you know, we just hung out and it was... but, you know, I don't wanna ruin the movie, but, uh, there is one scene of, of hiking the mountain, which was, um, our, our wrap night. It was the most glorious wrap night of my life.

David Canfield: Mm. Yeah, it's a, I, yeah, it's a beautiful scene. Yeah, we won't ruin it. 

Dale Dickey: It was difficult. I was like you, which 12,000 feet you might wanna take a can of oxygen for the old lady. I didn't need it. They took kid care of me, and up on that mountain, we, we could finally relax. It was our last night. We all tore off our masks and laid down and looked at the beautiful stars and embraced this wonderful family that we... this journey we'd taken together. So I'm so happy the film was well received. I was really nervous about the review. I mean, not nervous. I, I will- I like to know where the review's good, hopefully favorable, but I don't like to read them solidly because you paid too much attention, but I was most relieved that I didn't mess his movie up.

David Canfield: Did you, have you found the exposure, to that point, new at all, or perhaps intimidating? 

Dale Dickey: Little bit. 

David Canfield: Little bit? 

Dale Dickey: Um, you know, I think the only other time I went through this kind of media or large scale film that has gotten this kind of best was when I did _Winter's Bone_. 

David Canfield: Yes. 

Dale Dickey: And I had that wonderful supporting role as Merab. And you know, in the beginning, Jennifer Lawrence and John Hawks and I would go and do Q and A's for the film. We try to get the word out and, uh, we knew it was embraced at Sundance, but so I had a little bit of a taste of this going to some of the awards things. They would always try to include me, which was lovely. Um, and you know, watching Jennifer spiral away... well deserved. What a, what a wonderful actress and woman. I, I tend to be a little shy. Doesn't seem that way, I'm very gregarious. I love people, but, um, in terms of intimacy and talking about me, I always it's, it's difficult, but you know, I'm not talking about me, we're talking about the film, right? I may talk about me a little bit, but, um, the more I, the more I do interviews, the, the easier it is and I, um, I, I'm so happy this film is going to be seen whether, whether they like me or not. I think it's a beautiful film. So that's, that's where I'm staying right now. Staying in the present and whatever comes my way with, you know, more screenings and stuff, I'm there to promote it. 

David Canfield: Uh, you mentioned learning new things in a making a movie like this. I was struck by how gentle the role was and how gentle the story was in comparison, perhaps, to some of your, let's say harsher roles and work. 

Dale Dickey: Let me count the number of harsh roles. Most people that see me on the street, or they, they run from me. They think I have an ATM machine or a chainsaw or something. I'm, I'm going to kill them. Don't let them near your children. Um, so, yeah, this was a, a real gift to play someone so vulnerable and, and so quiet, and, and so gentle. The same with Wes as, as well. Max was talking about that we, the two of us are very weathered and always have played sort of violent, tough people. And to show us in a gentler light was really kind of lovely to play. I, I haven't gotten to do that that much and so it was new and it felt different, but Max was so good about... I think he had studied acting years ago before he went to film school. Studied theater and history and so he, he knows how to talk to actors quietly and gently and, um, keep you centered. Keep me centered, so that I don't fall into Dale's- see, I'm very animated, as you can tell. And, and Fay is very concise and very- routine is very important, so I, I wanted to really, I wanted to make sure I could find that stillness and that quiet. It's not hard in that environment. You know, that's the start of the film is this is the beautiful place we shot in.

David Canfield: Yeah. It really just, it, it, it's, you're a part of the landscape in a really beautiful way. 

Dale Dickey: Exactly. Exactly. 

David Canfield: Yeah. I'm curious, you've done many independent films, being top of the call sheet for this one, had you, over your career, witnessed how actors have handled being in that spot and how to sort of be the focal point of the cast and things like that.

Dale Dickey: Yeah. I mean, I I've worked, I I've been so grateful and lucky to work as much as I have on a lot of different sets with a lot of different people. And I'm not sure I'd been number one before. Maybe on a couple of student films, but it still, the number thing never really meant much to me. It just meant that you had a, so supposedly a lot of lines to say, but in this it's just more quiet. Um, but yeah, it's, it was important to me, it's important to me on a set to, you know, we all have our moments and, and I was struggling to quit smoking. And so, you know, my head can turn quickly, but I, I, uh, I try to always work well with others and respect- you know, coming from theater, you respect all the other disciplines and I'm as only as good as the people I'm working with and they're the ones making me look good. And, um, I just, I trusted our crew and, um, you know, it was mostly my big old face on screen the whole time gonna work? 

David Canfield: Um, I did wanna go back to _Winter's Bone_ for one moment. We are an awards podcast, and I do remember the moment you won the Indie Spirit award, uh, which felt like, uh, a very deserved honor. What do you remember about- what do you remember about that? Really that whole flurry and, and yeah, that being the, the culmination, perhaps for you on that, on that tour? 

Dale Dickey: That, that, that, that was nerve wracking for me, and I, I remember very little about that entire evening and, uh, I, I wasn't drinking, so, you know, I wasn't- I just, I knew... I was so excited just to be there. And I knew the film had been embraced by Film Independent and, and, and I knew that they liked _Winter's Bone,_ I never expected to win. I was really thrilled and honored to be nominated, but I did know that that award was coming first and that made me terribly nervous. Um, plus, you know, it was like, keep it to 30 seconds and then all the producers are saying don't thank us, you don't need to thank us. We know you're thankful. And so I get up there and I completely forget to thank Jennifer Lawrence, number one. Um, excuse me, but I for some reason I was there. And I tell you what I learned a lot from that young lady. She's, she's raw talent at its best and, and, and a good human being. Um, but yeah, I was, I was so nervous. I don't really remember what happened. I remember getting up on stage and looking out into the audience and seeing so many big stars and, and I landed on Jesse Eisenberg, sweet little Jesse with those curly hair, and he was just sitting like right in the center, just smiling at me. So I thought Dale just keep looking at Jesse. You don't know him. He doesn't know you, but he's giving you good energy and you're nervous. Maybe he's supporting you. But I know when, whenever I finished, I turned to exit the stage and I'm pretty sure it was Mark Ruffalo that he'd been there to give the award. I kind of collapsed into Mark's arms crying and laughing and in shock. And I know he was like, what the hell? Get her off of me and get her into the press. So I, and then I'd never done that whirlwind thing. I thought I just got to go back out and sit at the table. I wanted to see John and Jennifer get their awards, and then they take you through all the, the stuff, and I kept looking. I stop and watch TV. I wanna see my friends. It was, it was overwhelming and exciting, and it was just such a, a new thing for me. It was like being the Belle of the ball and, and I'd never experienced that before. And, uh, you just gotta take a deep breath and relax and enjoy, enjoy being there and why you're there and celebrating everyone's work, that's really what it's about.

David Canfield: Did it change the direction of, of your career at all? I, I, I know that you'd before, _Winter's Bone, _particularly you'd done a lot of bit parts. Particularly in television shows. 

Dale Dickey: Of course it, it did. I think, you know, everybody always talks about a big break. I'm like little breaks over the years, you know, starting in theater in New York. Um, and then with _Winter's Bone_ I knew when I got that audition, I knew this was a casting director I'd never met before. And I knew they did really good films. Um, I knew I fit into that world. I had no idea Deborah would cast me as Merab, but we had a great audition. Um, but certainly the exposure of that film, the fact that it did so well, and I think it's such a wonderful film, very proud to have been a part of it. That certainly put me at a different level in terms of my agents being able to get me into the room to meet new casting directors. So, uh, yeah, it, it, it was a turning point. You know, one thing just leads to the other and I mean, _Breaking Bad,_ believe me when _Breaking Bad_ came out that's when people, I don't know what it is. I was like really, I spent three hours in the makeup chair getting lesions put on my face, but if you recognize me, that's fine. It's the chin and the hair, you know? 

David Canfield: It's unforgettable. I have to say that is probably, it had to have been 2009 right? Around then. 

Dale Dickey: It was, it was, I think I filmed it 2008, 2009. It was right... you know what? I had just finished filming _Breaking Bad_ and my agents called and said, you have a meeting with Debra Granik as soon as you get off the plane. That was that day, I had come back from _Breaking Bad_ and my husband picked me up at the airport and took me and I went straight in. So maybe I was just on a high and that helped me.

David Canfield: Oh, wow. 

Dale Dickey: A skank high. 

David Canfield: Skank high. The sound of the crashing ATM machine echoing, right? 

Dale Dickey: 'You're the skank you're the hooker.' And I'm like, could you please clarify it was on _My Name Is Earl_ or _Breaking Bad_? 

David Canfield: Yes. That's, that does a lot that we need to get specifics beyond that. You did mention people running from you in terror, which I do think is a, a testament to, first of all, you watch a movie like _A Love Song_, and there is such vulnerability to your work. And it's, it's really, um, affecting and sweet and, and there is also a real ability on your part to play very intense, harsh characters. And that did seem like, especially in the smaller parts that you took on earlier in your career, um, I don't necessarily wanna call it typecasting, but I'm curious how it felt for you and how you came to start playing a lot of those kinds of parts? 

Dale Dickey: I've told this story before, but years ago when I started off in New York, because I came from theater and I, I just wasn't auditioning well, and I took a casting director workshop and uh, you know, I was like, 'I wanna do my Ophelia.' I was classically trained and blah, blah, blah. And they're like, 'No, you don't get it. You need to do your Southern, you need to do Beth Henley monologues.' I was like, no, I'll only be typecast to Southern, but he was basically saying, that is what you want. That's what you do better than anyone else. You... that's what is in your soul, in your heart. You may not have a thick Southern accent, but you grew up there, your rhythm, so I started embracing some of the, the Southern roles that I'd been shy away from because I did need to be typecast. Hollywood, particularly when I moved to LA, it's like they have a very specific look that they want, and I knew I was not the normal kind of look. The, the beautiful leading girl. Um, I mean, and one of my first auditions in when I was in LA was for the police shows was would've been like in '96. And I walked in to read for the, um, the, the next door neighbor that baked pies. And I literally walked in the room and the director looked at me and he went, 'can you come back tomorrow and read for the heroin addict?' Because this face, I learned early on, it's a strong face. It reads hard. It reads Appalachian. I could have a little mean mouth. There's just something that reads rural and tough. And I, I accepted that. You know, I, um, I grew more and more comfortable with my face as I went along. And, um, I don't know what it is about those, those tough gritty roles, but I sure do love playing them. It might be that I have trouble with anger in real life, and perhaps that I'm drawn to those roles?

David Canfield: It's a great outlet. 

Dale Dickey: But I, I can't use it for that, but, um, yeah, I love, I love trying to find the humanity in, in anyone who's on the margin or down and out. There's always some sort of hope and heart in there somewhere and I to try to bring that to every role I'd play, but, uh... yeah, _Love Song_, you know, I don't think Faye has too many skeletons in her closet, so yeah. 

David Canfield: Does it almost changed the way perhaps you see yourself as an actor? You've, you've mentioned your face a few times now, and I think the movie really has this, um, it's beautifully shot, um, but it, it does really embrace your face in Wes' face in all of it. Right? And, and it does take on a different connotation to say, it's, it's place in an episode of _Breaking Bad_ as you were saying. 

Dale Dickey: Right. And well, one of the things I, I can't remember, but I, what I really loved about some of the reviews from Sundance were that they embraced the fact that Wes and I are older character actors and like unapologetic closeups of my face. And then, and, and I, I, I got tickled because I think all that, they were all trying to find a, a nice way to say she's wrinkled as shit and insane. Like someone said, gloriously grooved or wonderfully weathered, and so that's going to be my new t-shirt. You know, um, it's Botox is not for me. And, um, I, I love it that I can use my weathered face and still feel beautiful. My, you know, it's hard too, but I'm being in the outdoors I feel, I feel beautiful no matter. You know, years ago, I, I- starting out, like even in college, I, I always played everyone under 12 or over 50. And my professors in school were like, you're gonna fall between the cracks. And then sure enough, when I started in the business, it was like, they, they want you to fit a certain mold and it's, you're, you're not pretty enough this way, and you're not quirky enough this way. So you sort of keep falling between the cracks and then, you know, I came into my own the older I got and I, I tell young students when I talk to them, it's like, don't- doesn't happen overnight. I didn't expect it to, I just was gonna keep going, but I, you know, I was 45 when I finally could quit my day job and started working, so, you know, Time Daily told me years ago embrace your face because you're gonna work more and more as you get older, and so thank you Time. Um, maybe- I hope that I hope this has got the end of it now. 

David Canfield: Well, um- 

Dale Dickey: I don't mind doing supporting roles. Look, baby I'm- I just love to work.

David Canfield: You've got the _Love Song_ and you also are in, uh, the _League of Their Own_ reboot coming out. And you're a regular in that, correct? 

Dale Dickey: Well, kinda sorta not. When we did the pilot I was recurring. I play the girls' chaperone. The chaperone is pretty much always there. And unless they're sneaking out at night in the privacy of their rooms. They were there everything. And I loved playing that role. Um, the girls were terrific. But when, when they went into series, it's like, because the chaperone is there... so I'm in the background every time we're on the field, you know? 

David Canfield: Right. 

Dale Dickey: I have to be there. So I'm written into every episode, but I'm not considered a regular. Um, I was a recurring, but it was a wonderful job. And I, I, I've learned a lot. I love doing period pieces and, uh, the girls were terrific. We had a great time, and I think it's gonna be a really good series. I'm really, really looking forward to seeing how people react to this new, more expanded version, because it covers a lot of different things. 

David Canfield: Yeah. So between that and _A Love Song,_ it's two pretty substantial projects for you coming out in the same year. 

Dale Dickey: They were actually originally gonna be released on the same day. On July 20. Then this was weird, I go to Tribecca for _A Love Song,_ we, our big screening was on like Monday night, the, I don't know, the 15th, 16th of something of June. It was the same night they premiered _League of Their Own_ at Tribecca.

David Canfield: Wow. 

Dale Dickey: Except it was two hours earlier. So I - I like, well, this is fun. I'm completely playing, you know, opposite characters and wow. This won't ever happen again. So, um, yeah, it's exciting. And I've been so lucky. I've been so lucky to work as much as I have, but particularly during COVID. I, I've been shocked. I mean, it's hard. You, you gotta follow all the rules and, but, you know, we wanna keep it going. We gotta keep it going.

David Canfield: Yeah, well, maybe it will happen again. 

Dale Dickey: Never know. 

David Canfield: Never know. Certainly I would call it overdue and, uh, it's, it's wonderful to see. 

Dale Dickey: Well, bless you, thank you. That's that's really, really, really lovely. It's it's, it's very kind. I mean, I, I love what I do. I've been in this business really long time and I- you know, if I didn't still love it, I, I, I wouldn't do it. Um, so of course it's nice to, to, to get recognition for something particularly something I was so scared about doing, doing lead role. 

David Canfield: Yeah. Well, here's to hoping more new challenges and opportunities are on the way. Dale Dickey, thank you so much for joining us. 

Dale Dickey: Thank you. Thank you. And here's for hoping I have interviewers as nice as you.

David Canfield: I'll take that. 

Katey Rich: That does it for today's interview episode. We'll be back on Thursday with our regular round table conversation. In the meantime, find us at vanityfair.com. Find us on Twitter @littlegoldmen and, uh, on our own. I'm @kateyrich and David? 

David Canfield: @davidcanfield97.

Katey Rich: And you can sign up to text with us at joinsubtext.com/littlegoldmen or text 213-513-4203, and a reminder that our book club series is kicking off in August. The first title up will be _Women Talking_ by Miriam Toews, so read along and join us. Our editor and producer is Brett Fuchs.