Katey Rich: Hello, and welcome to _Little Gold Men_ the award season podcast from _Vanity Fair_. 

Intro: "It's such an honor to present this next award." "And here are the nominees." "And the Oscar goes to..." "And the Oscar goes to..." "And I can't deny the fact that you like me. Right now, you like me." "I'm the king of the world!" "There's a mistake, _Moonlight_, you guys won best picture."

Katey Rich: I am Katey Rich, and I'm here for this interview episode with Rebecca Ford. 

Rebecca Ford: Hi. 

Katey Rich: Rebecca, you and I got to do the interviews on this week's episode. We're going to hear from Kaitlyn Dever and Jared Leto. Let's start with your conversation with Kaitlyn who has been a rising star for such a long time, and I don't know if, uh, the Hulu limited series _Dopesick_ is necessarily is a huge step up from her cause we've been seeing her do so much great work, but I do feel like she's getting attention that many of us feel like she's deserved for many years now. 

Rebecca Ford: Yeah, I think what's interesting is, uh, you know, she did _Unbelievable_ in 2019 and then paired with _Dopesick,_ I think she's kind of carving out a really interesting specialty almost for her. And we do talk about that, that she's really interested in projects that have something to say and, and sort of give a voice to people who have maybe been ignored before. And so she's just done a lot of good work and can do a lot of different things. You know, she was in _Booksmart_ and _Dear Evan Hansen_, but I think her work in this sort of dramatic vein is especially noteworthy.

Katey Rich: Yeah, and this show is so complex and there's so many different storylines in it, but hers, I think, has stood out to anyone who watched it is really the most heartbreaking of them. She's playing this character who is really a stand in for so many people who have been victims of the opioid epidemic. 

Rebecca Ford: Yeah, it's it's um, so her character is, is fictional and, and sort of a composite of a lot of stories that they heard. Um, but it's sort of the face of people who get addicted to opioids and it's a very tragic storyline and, and she talked a lot about how she had to have basically like a Google spreadsheet to sort of keep track of the characters journey because they obviously shoot out of order. And, and I think she really delivers on that emotion that this story needed.

Katey Rich: Yeah. Uh, anything else that you guys talk about in your interview that we should know about? 

Rebecca Ford: Um, we talk about her interest in possibly directing someday. You know, she got to watch Olivia Wilde do that in _Booksmart_ and apparently her sister is a very good writer. So she does have interest in maybe doing that along, um, with an action film. But what also was really fun to talk about is her parents who were professional ice skaters. So she had a really interesting upbringing. 

Katey Rich: I did not know that. That is fascinating.

Rebecca Ford: I know. I mean, this girl's got to get a, an ice skating movie cause she can skate, so we put that out there in the world. 

Katey Rich: Uh, well that sounds like we're making news right here on this podcast. So let's hear what else is in store with your interview with Kaitlyn Dever?

Rebecca Ford: I'm so excited to be joined by Kaitlyn Dever today who stars in Hulu's _Dopesick_. Um, it's such a powerful performance, so I'm really excited. We get to talk about it. Thanks for joining me. 

Kaitlyn Dever: Oh, well, thank you so much for having me. It's really nice to talk to you today. 

Rebecca Ford: I guess let's go back and tell me how this role first came to you, and if you had any concerns about taking it on or what was sort of your first impression with it? 

Kaitlyn Dever: This was actually my very first audition that I got right at the beginning of the pandemic. Everything was sort of up in the air and we were just figuring everything out. So this was one of the first things I had. So it was extra exciting for that reason alone, but then reading it, it was just immediately something that I knew I wanted to be a part of. I fell in love with Betsy as a character. I thought her role was just so deep and honest, and I just truly fell in love with her and the show. It was actually like the most interesting sort of audition processes because I, I sent in a tape, but I had a meeting with Danny Strong, writer and showrunner first. And he was so immediately so nice and such a good presence too. And he was just so lovely to talk to and he was so excited about the show too. And his passion really was what got me even more excited about it. And you could just tell that he just loved the show so much and, and had a real desire to tell the story and bring it to life. And he really believed that it was a story that really deserved to be told most directors don't ever do this, or give you any insight before you send your tape on, but he was like, send it to me first. Um, just in case and, and I'll pass along my notes and then you can send it onto your agents. I was like, that's so cool. He was just immediately like a friend and a pal and I just loved him. So then I just wanted to be a part of it so bad. I ended up booking it and then yeah, we shot it pretty quickly after that. And I had an incredible time making it in Virginia. And, uh, in terms of like coming onto a project like that, I think, you know, ever since I did _Unbelievable,_ being a part of that project really showed me like what you can really do with the work that you attach yourself to. And you can really make a difference with the projects that you bring to life. And, um, I really, that became really apparent when that show came out and it touched so many lives and allowed a lot of people to feel really seen by that show. And I knew immediately that _Dopesick_ was a story like that. It was a story that really deserves to be told. And I was nothing but excited to take on that role and dive into it. 

Rebecca Ford: And so Betsy is sort of like the, the face of how a person could become addicted to opiates. Like her journey is really showing how that happens to someone. She gets injured at a coal mine during her job and gets on the medication that way and then becomes addicted. And from what I understand is she's not based on one real person, she's sort of a composite of, of that story. So how did you all decide- cause she's really fleshed out. You know, I think there's a lot to this character, and, and how did you work with Danny to make sure, you know, she really felt like a real person? 

Kaitlyn Dever: I had a lot of conversation with, with Danny ahead of time before shooting. I had also done a lot of research on addiction a couple of years ago when I did _Beautiful Boy,_ and so I had already kind of had this like headstart in the research department, but this was, I wanted to better understand. Like there's a lot of like clinical facts on addiction and on how specifically oxy will affect somebody. But I really wanted to, um, have more knowledge on how it really like affected someone on emotional, on an emotional level. And so it was really about, it was really a day-to-day conversation with Danny. I also ended up meeting someone actually that was, uh, shared a similar story to Betsy's and this person was a huge part in my preparation process. But I think, you know, Betsy is a, is an example of someone who is literally not prepared for what's to come in her life and she didn't ask for any of it. You know, she was a, she's a hardworking coal miner that got a back injury and got prescribed medicine from her doctor. And, um, the way Danny wrote her as a character, he is such a brilliant writer. You know, and when I talk about our like day to day conversation, it was, it was really like day to day figuring it out. And, um, you know, I also- there was so much- because it's TV, we didn't have the chance to... we didn't really get the opportunity to shoot it in order. Because you know, I, I had such an attachment to her and I felt such a big responsibility playing this character, I felt like I had to give my 100% energy. And I ended up creating a spreadsheet with my sister's help because I wanted to really keep track of the level of withdrawals that she's going through throughout her journey. And when the show is all put together, you know, we really do see her in so many different states. And that's another thing that I learned about addiction is that it really isn't black and white. And, um, so in order to keep track of the different emotion and different levels of withdrawals that she was going through, I kept, I literally kept a spreadsheet that I would keep on me at all times that I could refer back to it. You know, when we were shooting day-to-day on set so that I could keep track of where she was at emotionally.

Rebecca Ford: Oh, that's interesting. Which another part of this character that I thought was especially powerful is, is about Betsy being queer. And there's a really powerful conversation she has with her father at one point. And I'm curious how that aspect of the character came together. Was it something Danny had written and it just felt like part of her story as well?

Kaitlyn Dever: Yeah, it was, it was just a part of who she was, which I thought was really beautiful. And I, again like this is a story that deserved to be told in so many different reasons, for so many different reasons. But I think that being a part of queer representation is, is always incredible. And I think we need more of it in TV and film. And, uh, I was really honored to bring that to life here. 

Rebecca Ford: Yeah, and I think this show aired long enough ago that we can probably talk about how Betsy's story ends on the show. And I'm curious what that was like for you to shoot sort of knowing that her story was gonna end in such a tragic way? 

Kaitlyn Dever: I think that, um, again, I wanted to be as realistic as I possibly could with this role and, uh, really trying to put myself in this person's shoes. And part of that was again, just like really easy because of Danny's writing and how brilliant he is again. But then I was surrounded by such incredible actors. People that I like really, really admire and look up to. And you know, it, again, it was such an honor playing this character and being a part of the show. And I think what's really wonderful about this show is that they're really reframing the narrative of addiction by not really sugar coating anything. It's just very, very honest. And I think that there are so many cases, like there are so many people out there like Betsy. Throughout the show and, and throughout the release of the show and, and slowly seeing people react and see the show and, and reach out to me about it, you realize that this is not some small issue. This is a really, really, really big problem in America. And, um, there are people that have children they have lost because of oxy and overdose and the rates are just continuing to grow. And again, it was just, I think her story is really, really heartbreaking, but it, it just was another part of the show that made it, made it very real. And I was just really, really grateful to be a part of it. 

Rebecca Ford: That was actually, my next question was about the reaction that you've gotten now that the show is out, or have you heard a lot of people's sort of personal stories? Has there been anything surprising about what you've heard or how people have reacted to this character? 

Kaitlyn Dever: Yeah. I mean, I was so grateful that we were actually able to shoot in Virginia. In the heart of where this epidemic started, really began. And, um, even when we were shooting the show, I had people that were a part of our crew coming up to me and sharing their stories and being so grateful that they get to be a part of telling that story too and that was really a big moment for me. And just again, made me so, made me feel so lucky to be able to, not only do what I love, which is obviously acting and, and, and work with such incredible people, but then also to be a part of allowing just at least one person to feel seen by something is just really, it's just really, really cool. And I feel just incredibly lucky. But even since the show's release I've had so many people reach out and there's just been an outpour of, of love for the show. And it's just been really cool to see. Because again, there were so many people that were a part of our, our cast and crew that really did care so much about this story and had, and, and shared a similar passion for the characters. And, um, it's been really, really special and I'm, I'm, I'm really, really proud of every body. 

Rebecca Ford: I'm curious for you, you know, you mentioned _Unbelievable_, which I thought was another really wonderful performance of yours, but when you look at roles like that where the material is heavy and there is this level of responsibility with the stories you're telling, do these sort of performances or these roles stick with you after you're done? I mean, how do you sort of move on once something like this is done and you're, you're onto your next project or back to your normal life? 

Kaitlyn Dever: I think with, especially with roles like Marie in_ Unbelievable _and Betsy in_ Dopesick_, and yeah, there's a huge responsibility that comes with taking on that kind of role. And, but I feel like, you know, on, on working on a show like that, that especially like just on the daily feeling exhausted or tired or feeling just emotionally drained by a certain scene or- especially on both _Unbelievable_ and _Dopesick_ I really kept myself in check with, with the idea that whatever hard day I'm having today, how, no matter how exhausted I feel it doesn't compare to the people that actually are going through addiction have to go through. Or doesn't even compare to the people who had have dealt with sexual assault. It doesn't even compare to, to people that have actually gone through it. And, um, when I take on, you know, a role like Betsy, I, I just feel like I have to give everything I have to these characters because the story means so much more than me. And so because of that, I think it is, I think it is hard to let it go at the end of the day. And definitely when I finish a project it still has me thinking for a long time, but I think I'm just, you know, I'm just ultimately proud of, again, everybody that was involved and I just, I just leave, like, especially on, on _Dopesick_ and _Unbelievable,_ I just left feeling really, really proud of the work that everybody did and I couldn't wait for them to come out.

Rebecca Ford: I wanted to touch on the things you have coming up. I guess what are you shooting right now? You said you're in New Orleans. 

Kaitlyn Dever: I am, yes, I am in New Orleans shooting a movie called _No One Will Save You_. And it is a very exciting movie. I don't know how, how much I'm allowed to talk about it, but Brian Duffield is, um, our writer and director, and he's amazing. And, um, I've had a really incredible time making it so far. 

Rebecca Ford: All I know is you're the lead and it's some sort of very unique action thriller, I think is all that the, the world knows of this project right now. 

Kaitlyn Dever: Yes. That's a good way to describe it. 

Rebecca Ford: Um, so I know you have that and you also have _Rosaline_, which you're also the lead in, which is a comedy. Sort of unique take on _Romeo and Juliet_. And then I know you also have the romcom, Ticket to Paradise with George Clooney and Julia Roberts coming out. So that's, that's quite a sort of amazing trifecta there. Um, I mean, what are you most excited about those three projects? 

Kaitlyn Dever: Well, I think _Rosaline_ and _Ticket to Paradise_ are coming out like almost around the same time. Um, so I'm excited for... _rosaline_ has been a project I've been excited about for a very long time. It has existed in the world for quite some time, and I've always been aware of it and I've always been in love with it. And then it fell into my hands again, um, very recently, and I love our director, I love the writers and the whole team is great. And I'm, it's a very, it's a very funny movie and I'm, I'm really excited for that to come out. But I'm also really excited about _Ticket to Paradise_ to come out. They're both like really fun, comedic films that I think the world is really going to enjoy seeing right now. 

Rebecca Ford: I stumbled on this fact, which I feel like people probably know about you, but maybe not everyone, that your dad was the voice of Barney for a time and that your parents were ice skaters. Is this, is this right? 

Kaitlyn Dever: Yes. 

Rebecca Ford: What was your upbringing like? It sounds like a unique, I don't know, profession for, for your parents. 

Kaitlyn Dever: Yeah. My upbringing was awesome. My parents were, yes, they were both figure skaters and then when I was a baby, I, they put me on skates like immediately. And then I also did some figure skating comp- I was a figure skater. And, but then I got sick of it. Like the, uh, screenwriting classes. I kind of jumped around a lot. It's a certain activ- but I, I stuck with acting. That is something that I have stuck with for quite some time. So I think it's going okay. Um, but, uh, Yeah, my, my parents were, it was very- it's honestly, like when I tell people that my parents were figure skaters, it's always such a random fact, but I love it so much. And it's, it's how they, they met each other and they've been together for many, many years. And, um, but yeah, right around... my, my dad was a coach. Both of them were figure skating, they went on to teach. And yeah, he randomly got the job for the voice of Barney. And then that's how I, um, grew up, uh, in Texas because the Barney production is out of Dallas, Texas. So that's what moved us over there. And then I, my childhood was spent in Dallas. We lived in a suburban town outside of Dallas called The Colony and I, I am so grateful that I grew up there. Cause I just, I just loved the neighborhood. I love my school. I loved... my sisters loved it so much. And yeah, my upbringing was very, very, very great. 

Rebecca Ford: Where is your ice skating drama film? Or comedy? Is it coming? 

Kaitlyn Dever: I mean, you know, it's, I mean, that can happen. That can, that can happen and I can skate, so that's, that's a plus.

Katey Rich: And now we're going to go to my interview with Jared Leto who played Adam Neumann on the Apple Series, _WeCrashed,_ in a role that I think in some ways was kind of tailor made to him. He's a movie star, he's used to having, you know, a lot of influence. He's used to being on a stage in his rock band. Um, and he is known for diving really deep into his characters. Um, and that's something I think he's really aware of, of, of his reputation for maybe staying in character on set and maybe, you know, taking his investment in the character really far. And I thought it was really interesting in our conversation that he wanted to emphasize, like he wants to do the best work he can, he wants to show up prepared. Um, and I think the results really show in _WeCrashed_ and this performance he's giving as a guy who convinced a whole lot of people to put a whole lot of money into a company that was really just a leasing company for offices and convinced them it was tech and he pulled off not, not quite a scam, but a real ambitious effort that collapsed in front of his eyes. Rebecca, you watched WeCrashed right? 

Rebecca Ford: Oh, yeah. I think it's some of his best work and, you know, he got a lot of criticism from _House of Gucci_, so it's really cool to see him follow that up with this. And I'm curious, what else he had to sort of say about becoming Adam Neumann. 

Katey Rich: Well and he talked about _House of Gucci_ too, and how he was kind of playing this larger than life character in a movie that was larger than life. But I think that his character in _House of Gucci_ was maybe in a slightly different movie than everybody else, and I think in _WeCrashed_ his Adam Neumann is really creating the world that surrounds him. And he's so perfectly in sync with the show, as well as Anne Hathaway, who's playing his wife Rebekah. Um, I loved _WeCrashed_ a lot and I was so happy to get the chance to talk to him about it, so let's listen to my conversation with Jared Leto.

Well, thank you for coming to talk to me about _WeCrashed._ We did a whole podcast series on our other podcasts _Still Watching,_ so I watched every episode twice, I think, and had so many thoughts about it. And I am really grateful to get to talk to you about it again. Um, but I'm curious for you, you know, I just watched the show, you wrapped it about a year ago, how, how did it feel for you watching it rollout? How much did you pay attention and does it now feel like it's fully over for you? 

Jared Leto: It doesn't feel like it's fully over because we're still talking about it. I mean, I'm still working out what my thoughts are on the project and the experience, but this one was really special. It was really different because of the amount of time it took to make it. And I absolutely loved every single second of it. 

Katey Rich: Did you pay attention to how people were responding when the show aired? I mean even reading reviews, but social media reactions, what people thought of your performance? Do you, how much of that do you track?

Jared Leto: I try not to get involved with much of that, but you get a sense of how things are, whether you want to or not. You know, you, you kind of get a sense if something kind of hits a nerve or if a performance works. So, um, that's enough for me. I'm too sensitive, uh, to, to dive into reviews and, and, and, and, and that stuff. I think that I, I have a pretty good sense of if I'm achieving what, I'm, what I set out to do. And, you know, I give myself plenty of opportunity to fail both for day in, day out and with a project. I mean, I'm interested in taking really big swings and, you know, when you do that, you're, you're going to miss and sometimes you win and you have things work and that's wonderful, but I think it's important to give yourself the freedom to fail.

Katey Rich: I wanted to ask you about that failure, cause you talked to my colleague, Julie Miller a few months ago and talked about being Adam Neumann when you weren't on camera to kind of figure out the character and how a lot of that was failure. And I'm curious about when it's, you know, you're not on screen, you're not working for a director you're on your own. How do you know when something's a failure when you're trying to tap into who the character is on your own time when the camera's not rolling? 

Jared Leto: I like to do a lot of research and I like to be really prepared. Over prepared. You know, when you walk onto a film set and there's a couple hundred people there, it's your job to deliver no matter what. If it's five in the morning and you've got very little sleep and you're supposed to step on your mark and, you know, have an emotional breakdown and you haven't even had a cup of coffee, that's your job and you have to deliver, so I like to do my, my practice beforehand. And I, and, and in that practice, you know, when you're sitting with dialogue, when you're sitting with character, when you're experimenting, when you're doing research and pulling things that you may have found, um, in that rehearsal, in that practice is, is, is a great place to look for things that you think might work. And of course, when you get up on the day, that can all change. But I always try to come in with some ammunition so that I'm not left empty handed.

Katey Rich: And so when you've done the, when you've done that work on your own, um, how do you communicate that when you're coming onto the set? Do you have, do you come and do you discuss the work that you've done ahead of time with the directors, with the writers or is it really just something you bring internally? 

Jared Leto: All of the above. I mean, if there are things that I'm excited about trying that requires some preparation, of course you want to let people know so that you don't make people's lives more complicated. And I have to say, you know, right up there with being prepared and working as hard as I can, I do believe it's also my job to show up and be as kind as possible. To be as collaborative as possible. To be supportive and to be service of the other actors, of the writer, of the director, because it's, it, it takes a team. You know, and, and, and on this one, especially, I mean the grips and the PAs and the people that worked, I was just struck so often by how hard people were working and the contributions that they made so that we can all do our jobs. You know, not to get too like altruistic or something, but it, it, it was quite a beautiful thing to be a part of a really, really special. 

Katey Rich: And making it during COVID too. Like the stakes are so high in terms of everyone doing exactly the job they have to do.

Jared Leto: Yeah. It, it, it, it was wild because we were in New York City and you know, basically a ghost town at that time too. But anyway, you know, sometimes there are things that you want to keep to yourself and try out whether it's an improvisation or an ad-lib or something like that. And sometimes you want people to be in cahoots. So it really depends, but I'm big on being prepared. There's no worse feeling... we've all had those dreams before that, you know, we have to give a speech or to stand on stage. I actually had one the other night, uh, that I was going on tour with 30 Seconds to Mars and I had to get up and do the first show and I haven't sung in so... in a couple of years, and I was, was hoping my voice would be there. And you know, those kinds of dreams can be a reality when you're an actor. It's good to be prepared. And especially in this case with Adam Neumann, because he was so verbose. He gave a lot of speeches. Words were his superpower, as they may have said in this show and, you know, and in this project, um, the dialogue is the action in a sense. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. The, um, so my colleague, Gabe Sherman reported on the end of, WeWork back in 2019 and the headline of it said something like, 'you don't bring bad news to the cult leader.' And I wondered if that term for Adam Neumann, "cult leader" felt right to you in terms of his power, with words and his charisma and how he stood on the stage. Does, does that feel right for Adam? 

Jared Leto: I mean, it's a term that gets thrown around a lot, you know, but it's, uh, I think he had cult personality. Um, he had an enormous, enormous amount of power within his company. And I think people were in awe of this immigrant who came to America and built a company from nothing into a $47 billion empire. And he was really charismatic. And in a world of, of, you know, startups where you have a lot of engineers become CEOs, you know, charisma, isn't always easy for people that are introverted. Oftentimes people that have spent a lot of time alone, coding and working and not every CEO has that charisma. And he certainly... I mean, I talked to CEOs of some of the biggest companies in the world that knew that met Adam or had meetings with them or knew him and still said, after all that was said and done still said he was one of the most compelling and charismatic and confident people they had ever been. 

Kaitlyn Dever: Um, watching, _WeCrashed _as it goes on and watching Adam and Rebekah both kind of become more powerful and also more famous, I couldn't not think about how this works in Hollywood as well. Like how fame kind of puts you in a different world, in a different sphere, and people talk to you differently and you get away with more, did those parallels track for you? Do you see, not even necessarily what's happened to you, but you know, this industry that you know well, do you think what happened to them as a similar thing that happens to people who get famous and maybe aren't ready for the power it holds?

Jared Leto: Uh, it's certainly a wild world we're living in with, um, social and the speed at which people achieve fame. If that's an achievement. I've always thought of famous by-product of the work that you do that you happen to love. But I, I try to focus on the, on the creative work and that's where I find my reward in life. And you know, I'm, I'm grateful that I've gotten to, uh, spend my life doing this. And in recent times the gratitude keeps going up and all the other things, you know, some of the, um, discontent and or the frustration with my abilities gets a little quieter. And, um, I just have more gratitude to be able to work and, and to do what I've been doing. It's a, it's a beautiful thing, you know. 

Katey Rich: What's made that gratitude go up? Is it pandemic? Is it other things that made that change? 

Jared Leto: I think probably old age. 

Katey Rich: Hmm. 

Jared Leto: I think I'm getting older, you know, looking at my mother as well. And sharing that, that this journey with her and my brother probably. And, and seeing how, you know, I think COVID, and probably is a great opportunity to see how fragile life can be. And, and the life that we love can be. 

Katey Rich: I'm always interested in people who've been working for a long time like you have and in so many different phases of your life about how getting older affects the way that you approach the work that you can do and, you know, you're in a position where you can make choices. And I wonder if you choose roles differently as you get older, or if you look at what you're able to do with them differently, or if it's more general, you know, life perspective? 

Jared Leto: I think so. I think when you're young, you're out to, you know, prove to yourself that you're capable and that you have something to offer. You have, you have a desire to contribute in a meaningful way. I've felt those things. And I think as I've gotten older, you know, I don't need to do, you know, I'm quite content. Like I would love to do a comedy, you know, it never had that thought when I was younger, um, I was always interested in drama. I grew up watching those films of like, you know, the late sixties and seventies and eighties that the auteurs and the, the films that changed my life. Um, you know, people like Al Pachino who had just had the opportunity to work with. Denzel Washington, of course, DeNiro and Christopher Walken and all these incredible actors of that era. Um, but I, I think like, as far as like the choices that we make, yeah, I, I would love to do something that's, you know, uh, it'd be fun to do something romantic at some point. 

Katey Rich: So we were saying romantic comedy, putting the two together? 

Jared Leto: I mean, I would do it from- and everybody always jokes about that. But, uh- 

Katey Rich: You just said romance and comedy. It's perfect. 

Jared Leto: Yeah, but a romcom would be hilarious. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. 

Jared Leto: You know, what would be the funniest part is actually going out to promote it and talking about it, which would be the funniest part.

Katey Rich: Why because you have to talk about like romance for yourself? 

Jared Leto: Just, just the opposite, because so much of my career has been, you know, people would be so like, "So what's going on here?" The opposite, like opposite McConaissance or whatever they called that. 

Katey Rich: Oh, come on you were right in the middle of the McConaissance. 

Jared Leto: I was peak McConnaissance, I was. 

Katey Rich: First-hand seats to that whole thing.

Jared Leto: I think actually the opposite McConaissance is the best route because as you get older you just like- somebody told me the other day he called it, 'making those wrong comms was like every day was a Sunday.' 

Katey Rich: Sounds great, right? 

Jared Leto: Isn't it the best thing? I mean, my God, every day is a Sunday. I would love to sit on a beach in Hawaii and just like, you know, be silly and have, have a nice, uh, time. 

Katey Rich: But it's also not easy being light on screen I think. I think being effortlessly charismatic is really effortful. I think a lot of actors will say that. 

Jared Leto: Look, if I could do it, I probably would have done it by now. I'm certainly not effortlessly charismatic. Never have been. Like, there are people out there that are just so good at being subtle and being themselves and really, um, we're all happy for them just to keep doing that. You know, because there's so like there's so compelling. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. 

Jared Leto: I have to like beg and grovel and, you know, work myself to the bone just to squeeze out something halfway, uh, deserving. Uh, but maybe you get to a certain point where you just have some- you've cobbled together some charm and you get yourself fixed. So you, and then you go out and you're just like, you got a billion dollar smile and you know, you can kill it. But yeah, I do think that that's probably under appreciated. The, the, the subtleties in and delivering some of the, you know, the best of what that stuff is. 

Katey Rich: What kind of comedy would you want to make? Like what, what's a comedy you've seen where you're like that. That's the thing that I would want to do. 

Jared Leto: I think I'd love to do something like _Being There._ You know, uh, some like P Peter Sellers, um, you know, that, that would be really fun to send up a character. To do the character work, but really just be and Paolo really touches on some of that Paolo Gucci for me, where it's, it's obviously a very big performance purposefully. So, and that's at times almost like representational. It's not, you know, always a naturalistic and, and I'm kind of interested in that. You know, in a world we have, you know, back in the day, when you have a Marlon Brando doing something so different. If you showed Marlon Brando to a kid kid, now they'd be like, well, what's the big deal? In some ways, in, in those first few films, they would be like, you know, it's hard to understand the context of which he started doing what he- 

Katey Rich: Well, because he was the first one and now everyone does what he did. 

Jared Leto: So in some ways it's interesting to kind of go back to something else and, uh, you know, to explore something presentational, you know, uh, uh, and I, and Paolo was kind of a play into some of that for me. Um, but I think it would be really fun to do, uh, a flat-out comedy and I dunno, maybe a comedy romantic is in my future. 

Katey Rich: I wanted to ask about the transformational power of, of Adam Neumann, cause Paolo, like you're saying is, is big in a really different look for you and Adam is less so, but the context, I think have a huge impact. I think there were other prosthetics involved too. And I'm curious about transforming yourself less obviously dramatically, but how much that still does for you in terms of becoming somebody else. 

Jared Leto: It's hard to be subtle with a lot of things, you know? Um, and with Adam Neumann, the work that we did to help support that transformation was subtle. And, uh, it took a lot of work. It took a great team and we had a phenomenal team as usual. I've been very lucky with, with the teams, the hair and makeup. Um, and, you know, actors, we spend more time with hair and makeup than almost anybody. You know, it's a very intimate experience. And this one, especially when you're doing this kind of work hours and hours every day, and I've heard, uh, uh, Daniel Day Lewis, um, he referred to it as mask work, which is interesting. 

Katey Rich: Yeah, like theater school.

Jared Leto: Yeah, like theater. And, you know, someone was telling me, um, the, the earliest actors would, would wear masks. Um, and the mask was interesting because it not only concealed the actors, so it provided the audience with some belief or disbelief, but, uh, not only concealed the actors, but it also revealed something. Um, and, and we see that in culture. Not just with acting, you see it in Halloween, you see it in, in, at Burning Man. You know, you put on a costume all of a sudden you get in touch with this primal side of your self and, and you maybe are a little free. Maybe funnier, maybe the person at the office who's a little bit straight laced gets dressed up for Halloween and all of a sudden he's a little bit, he's the life of the party. But, uh, yeah, the mask work is interesting. And, and the case of Adam, it had its challenges too, because I found it was fairly close to me. And when you're working close, even if you just change the eyes where you see so much that you're used to of me, that it it's harder to kind of forgive or forget the, you know, that a small change sometime, sometimes. So that took some work and some, um, and also we, we started of course with much more in, in the preparation and then had to kind of whittle it down and make some tough decisions about what we were going to be able to pull off in the amount of time we had for the length of shooting. So it was really like prep time, day in, day out in the, and then, uh, and then the amount of time we're shooting that that helped make the decision. And, and the, and then of course the creative result.

Katey Rich: Is there something that feels more vulnerable about it when you're looking, when you're transforming yourself, that still looks more like you, do you almost wish you had more of the, the mask work like you were saying? 

Jared Leto: Well, again, I'm so used to it. It's, it's such a part of what I do, but the biggest transformation is really on the inside. You can put a bunch of all the prosthetics on, but if you don't have the heart, the soul, the spirit, it's just a bunch of plastic. 

Katey Rich: Sure. 

Jared Leto: You know, if I just put it on and I was like, I showed up and said, 'Hey guys, how you doing? Um, wait, what's my line?' You know, it, you're not gonna get anything from that, except it's probably would look unreal. You know, you wouldn't even buy it because you have to have the other stuff- you have to have as well. The voice, the different way of moving and talking or walking sometimes breathing, you know? 

Katey Rich: Yeah. 

Jared Leto: So, uh, yeah, it, it has to, there has to be some unity, some synergy. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. I mean, I think we've all seen examples of the, like the, the makeup being the mask, and it doesn't make any sense with what's going on in the inside. You can spot it, even if you're not an actor. You kind of feel it watching something like that. Um, I saw when you were talking again to my colleague, Julie, a few months ago, you were talking about how your, you've kind of started keeping more of your process to yourself. Because I think the way that people talked about it, you felt had gotten kind of... taking on a life of its own. Is that still something you want to do? You've been very generous talking to me about it, but I wonder if you're still trying to put up a boundary there to keep things to yourself if it's not being understood the way you want it to. 

Jared Leto: Well, it's also simple to me. You know, like in the, and then the way we're talking about it, it's all kind of practical. There's no, I think there's a certain assumption that if you work in a certain way, you're like a weirdo and you're running around doing crazy things all the time. And I just don't work like that. You know, if people were to talk to any director, first of all, I wouldn't be- people wouldn't hire me. People wouldn't be excited to work with me. You know, my fellow actors wouldn't be, uh, so supportive and lovely about the experience. You know, certainly not in this day and age, but there, there is a certain difficulty in talking about certain things because they become so titillating. Uh, which to me is always really silly. Um, especially at my age, it's like, you know, it's, it's just all kind of corny to me, to be honest. Like I, I don't walk around ever in my life really believing I'm someone else. Uh, that would be amazing if you did, but you can fall into the habits. You can fall into character, you can fall into behavior, you can practice an accent. And for me, I make choices and decisions really based on the practicality of it. You know, and you know, if I want to practice and accent, like if you're working on a set, you know, most of your day, you're not in front of the camera with a camera rolling.

Katey Rich: Oh yeah. 

Jared Leto: That's only a small percentage of your day. So you have a choice on how you're going to use the rest of your day. I like to use the time, I'm at work, like a lot of other people in the world I'm working. Uh, you know, you, you can check your phone if you want. You can listen to music if you want. That's great. Okay. Do whatever you want. But I like to try to use the time to practice. Uh, so my whole thing is really just about practicing. And, um, you know, I kind of reject the term method acting because it's just been so perverted, misunderstood, and it's just this thing that people like, 'Ooh,' you know, uh, get so weird about. But, uh, I just like to be as focused and prepared as possible. And, and like I said before, I really take it, it's, it's an important thing to me to be the best partner that I can. To be kind and considerate, collaborative and to be of service of others and I enjoy that. You know, I enjoy when there's a day player that come, that comes in, you know, that has a line. I love to take that line and turn it into five. Take the five and turn it into ten. By the end of the day, that person that, you know, as a whole part, that's a much richer than maybe the day they expected. Um, I love that kind of stuff. And, and, you know, to be able to get to a place where you can do that and not ask permission to include someone or to play around, uh, and to be creative with another artist, especially one that might be coming up or one that's, you know, contributing, uh, you know, on a, uh, for a day like that. That's a, that's a beautiful thing. I love that. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. I mean, _WeCrashed,_ God, the ensemble, like when you start going down the bench. The people in the office, and then the finance guys, like you guys got to play off of so many great people on the show. 

Jared Leto: Insane. And I got to tell you, it touches me deeply. And, uh, again, fills me with gratitude that we, we had the opportunity to have so many incredible actors. I mean, people would come in and it's a testament, it's just that culture in New York of, of like... and I mean. Maybe I would find it in LA, but I just never had this experience where there was so many people that came in and it's hard to come in with a line or two. Especially like, you know, I'm sure world- word travels in, like people were going for it here. You know, Annie Hathaway's, she's a pro. You know, you, you don't show up on set with her not prepared because you know, you're going to miss an opportunity to do something special that you hopefully will be proud of. But so many actors came in and were just hilarious and so unexpectedly, you know, unique. And it, for me, it was beautiful. And I was, you know, we did so much improvisation on this, this show. And now, so thankful to Lee and Drew for keeping that creative door open so that we could all play and, um, and experiment. 

Katey Rich: That does it for today's interview episode. We'll be back on Thursday with our regular episode. In the meantime, you can find us vanityfair.com. You can find us on Twitter @littlegoldmen and on our own. I'm @kateyrich, how about you, Rebecca?

Rebecca Ford: @beccamford. 

Katey Rich: You can also sign up to text with us subutex joinssubutex.com/littlegoldmen or text 2135137035. Our editor and producer as always is Brett Fuchs.