Katey Rich: Hello, and welcome to _Little Gold Men_ the award season podcast from _Vanity Fair_. Intro: "It's such an honor to present this next award." "And here are the nominees." "And the Oscar goes to..." "And the Oscar goes to..." "And I can't deny the fact that you like me. Right now, you like me." "I'm the king of the world!" "There's a mistake, _Moonlight_, you guys won best picture." Katey Rich: I'm Katey Rich, and I'm here for this interview episode with David Canfield. David Canfield: Hey Katey. Katey Rich: David, you had the pleasure of talking to Lesley Manville, who's not just a beloved, uh, celebrity around our parts, but is starring in kind of the ideal summer counter programming. Uh, please tell me about Lesley Manville and _Mrs. Harris goes to Paris._ David Canfield: As she calls it the perfect movie to get us back into theaters and I could not agree more. She is so delightful in this movie. It is a far cry from what I think a lot of us are used to with her, which is playing very intense, sometimes cold characters. Uh, here she is just a bundle of joy and energy and light and, um, gets to wear some stunning Jenny Beavan costumes, gets to smile. Isabelle Huppert face, which makes Isabelle Huppert crazy. It's just, it's everything you could want from a July theatrical movie. Katey Rich: Um, not to be all like I was on board with Lesley Manville a long time ago, cause I certainly am no expert, but I did see her in Mike Leigh's _Another Year._ She's worked with Mike Leigh a lot. And um, his, his films can often be very dark, but she's such a bright breath of fresh air character in that movie, which is often very sad. And this feels like it's really in line with that tradition. David Canfield: Yeah. And we talked a lot about _Another Year_ and we talked a lot about Mike Leigh. Yeah. Her work in all of his movies is among my favorites of hers. I've been a fan of hers for a really long time. And it's funny that you say that because I think she's very aware of the narrative that post phantom thread, uh, her career has, you know, had a bit of a shift. Um, she's getting a lot more Hollywood offers specifically, but she says, you know, I've, I've had a really great career for a really long time and it's amazing that the opportunities keep coming, but she doesn't look back on like the early two thousands as a dark period or anything like that. Katey Rich: Well, she's in, she's in this great place where if you need someone to be like imposing and scary and smarter than you, you, you can bring in Lesley Manville and that's, that's a niche I would love to fill personally. David Canfield: Yeah. And then she can do this too. And I think that's a real credit to her range, which we also talk about. Katey Rich: Yeah. Well, uh, I can't wait to hear it. Let's hear your conversation with Lesley Manville. David Canfield: Lesley, I wanted to start by asking you just about the nature of playing this role. Um, I consider you a bit of a chameleon in, in my encounters with your work over the years, but I feel like a lot of your best known roles stuff like _Another Year_, which I love, _Phantom Thread,_ there's a, there's a certain intensity, let's say to the characters. And Mrs. Harris is just delightful and gives all of herself to others. And that felt like a nice change of pace. I'm not sure if it was like that for you. Lesley Manville: Oh, it was definitely like that for me. And thank you for calling me chameleon because that's all I aim for. And that is absolutely what keeps me interested in my work. I'd absolutely hate it if I only was a one trick pony. And thankfully I get offered the variety as well. So, um, I'm allowed to put my wishes into practice. But yeah, it was a lovely thought to play Ada because she is so wholesome and good. Yes, she's got her pain and her grief and all of that, but it's certainly the whole film is done with a different brushstroke to the desperateness of Mary in _Another Year._ And, um, the pent up angst of Cyril in _Phantom Thread_. I mean, this is, this is a different type of character, but, but a different type of film as well, you know? Obviously we are creating a film that people are gonna come out feeling nice about themselves, and nice about her and feeling a little bit better about the fact they can go to the cinema after the two years that we've had and all of those things. David Canfield: Yeah, absolutely. I think this is a perfect summer back, you know, back to the movies kind of experience. Lesley Manville: Isn't it? Yeah. It really, yeah, it really is. Yeah. Good. I'm glad you feel that. David Canfield: When you make a project, like this is the energy on set different? Is the energy for you playing that kind of character different or no? Lesley Manville: No, mean, it's an interesting question cause I can see where, where you are coming from, but you know, just because a character is a, is a bit more lightweight, shall we say, it, it doesn't mean that you it's any easier to get them right. There are differences, obviously, but doing somebody like Ada doesn't mean that the day is just easier and you're just hopping and skipping around and it doesn't bear... you don't have to really think about it all too much. It, it, it requires the same kind of commitment and work to get that level right. And I think one of the things, it's always difficult in a film is getting everybody on the same page. You know, that you, you, you can't have an actor who comes in and has misjudged the kind of level of performances or the level of reality, or unreality or heightenedness or non-heightenedness. You, you know, every actor's got to be on the same page as it were, so that's a credit to the cast because they, they, they do come in and everybody gets it right. But yeah, it's, doesn't make any difference to the intensity of the day as it were. David Canfield: Yeah. Yeah, no, I can see that. Also for you having played so many scenes stealing, let's call them supporting parts over the years, obviously you've played lead roles before. Um, but this is a, to your point, it seems pretty intensive in that respect. Really carrying the movie, the face of it from all angles and, and really the energy of the movie comes from what you bring to it. Uh, how do you find that experience? Lesley Manville: Well, it, uh, uh, I think you're right in terms of movies, I have done a lot of roles that have been... with the exception of some of the Mike Leigh work. David Canfield: Yes. Lesley Manville: Um, it is a change, but I'm used to being a leading lady in television, you know, a lot of the projects I'm doing now or have done and plays as well. So that kind of, uh, responsibility is not alien to me at all. It's it's just that now I've got Focus Features behind me. David Canfield: No small thing, no small thing. Lesley Manville: No small thing indeed. And in fact, Focus Features have been behind, you know, quite a few of the films I've done, including _Phantom Thread_ and _Let Him go_, which was a film I did with Kevin Costner and Diane Lane. So yeah, they've been, they've been there quite a bit along the way. So, but yeah, of course, it's great. Isn't it very nice to do a movie and be the, be the central character and have that responsibility and yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's very good. David Canfield: _Let Him Go_, another not so nice character let's say. In the best way. Lesley Manville: No, good though. I like all of that. David Canfield: Well, let's zoom back a little bit with Mrs. Harris. Um, what was your familiarity with the novel, the character and, and how did the script come your way? Lesley Manville: Well, no, I wasn't familiar with it at all. It came my way because my, my dear late friend, Alan Rickman, and his wife, Rima Horton had known about the script quite some time ago. David Canfield: Oh wow. Lesley Manville: And we're very, very taken with it. So Alan, as you know, is no longer with us, but Rima is my friend and she called me up one day and she said, look, there is this script called _Mrs. Harris Goes to Paris,_ and I thought, well, that's a good title for a start. And she said that, you know, her and Alan have been involved with the film and been very interested in it. And Alan had always liked the script. And I thought, well, knowing Alan, as I did and knowing how kind of meticulous he was and, and what, what brilliant taste they both have, I thought, well, this obviously's got to be good. So, so Rima said, look, you know, it's been a, it's been a slow one to get off the ground with all the funding and everything, but, you know, she said it, I, I, I, it looks like it's gonna happen. And, um, that Rima was gonna be exec producing it in some capacity. And she said, I think it's gonna come your way. So, and then it did. So that, that, that was it. And I did- and then I read the book and read the script obviously and asked if I could be an executive producer on it as well, because I wanted to have some creative input because I am upfront in it. And you know, you don't wanna be feeling that you haven't got quite the people involved. I mean, obviously I'm not, there are different capacities to being exec producers. David Canfield: Sure. Lesley Manville: And I, I just wanted to be very involved with the creative side of it in terms of actors. And in fact, you know, the, the director of photography was a, was my suggestion, because I'd worked with him before. David Canfield: Oh wow. Lesley Manville: Uh, Felix Wiedemann. So I wanted that kind of in cause uh, Anthony Fabian has not directed as many films as I've been in, so, you know, you just wanted to, I just wanted to collaborate with him on, on casting choices and things like that. David Canfield: I would imagine, especially in a movie like this where clothes tell a lot of the story, the arc of your character is sort of in line with the dress, and I should say dresses. Lesley Manville: Well, indeed. And it, and it's not just the Dior dresses that Ada wears it's it was getting the clothes that are right for Ada. You know, you might think, oh, well that's easy isn't it? It's just a skirt and a top and a pinafore and a coat and a hat. It's, it's important because she hasn't got a lot of money. You know, we we've made her be someone who's quite good with a needle and cotton herself. And so we've had her clothes, you know, embellished and livened up by her, which was also very much a post-war thing. If you could do a bit of sewing, you did because the fabric was in short supply well, into the fifties. So women, generally women were, were taking an old blouse and doing something with it to make it, give it a new bit of life. David Canfield: Hmm, not to go too deep into the film or spoilers, but the scene where we have this dress reveal of you putting it on and wearing it for the first time is so grand and heartwarming. I'm just curious about the experience of playing a moment like that for the character and also just, yeah, being able to wear those clothes? Lesley Manville: I know. Well, it was, yeah, I loved that. You mean the scene in the attelier when she's trying on the dress and being... David Canfield: Yeah. Yes. Lesley Manville: I loved all of that. It was just, it's just joyous. Give me a frock and I'm happy. I mean, I do love a frock, so it was just gorgeous and that frock in particular was my personal favorite. Yeah. It, it, it, uh, their lovely scenes to play and, and, and I, I just had a freedom. There's a lot of, there's a lot of made up stuff and invented moments that came effortlessly because, you know, I had these great actors around me being all the, you know, the fitter and the measurer and all these women fluttering around and, and you just, you just riff off of it really. So it was, it was great. It was really enjoyable doing those scenes. David Canfield: Yeah. Um, I wanted to ask you about playing opposite, Isabelle Huppert, who, um, I imagine that- it looks like a lot of fun. It looks like a, kind of a, a dream pairing from, from my vantage point. Lesley Manville: Yes. Well, I think it probably is a dream pairing. I mean, we, I think what we'd quite like to do now is go and do a play together. Um, yeah, I mean, we, I think we've crossed over in a lot of the plays that we've done actually. I think she's done Ibsen's _Ghosts_, which I did in London and New York. Um, she, I mean, she's like me, she's a big theater actress, you know. And of course we, you, you, you get us two together, it's, it's, it's really, it's really good. Um, and, and, but obviously, you know, Ada is, there's this kind of, you know, Ada's feeling in terms of status, she's definitely way below this woman, but Ada doesn't really think like that. You know? David Canfield: She doesn't see it. Yeah. Lesley Manville: She's just going well, I'm here. I've got some cash. Why don't you want it? Why can't I just go home with the frock now? You know, um, because it's just a world that she doesn't understand. You know, she just doesn't understand that couture world at all. And why should she? But let's not be snobby about it. I'm here with my money and my money's as good as the horrible, the nasty woman I'm sitting next to at the couture show. Um, money is money is money, and of course that's what Lucas Bravo's character ends up, yeah acknowledges, seeing, and then of course they, she goes to Mr. Dior and explains it all. And it's all a bit of a revelation for the house of Dior, which I do believe actually did happen as well. That's what started them into doing ready to wear clothes. Going into lipsticks and things like that. Something that the woman who didn't have the money to have a bespoke gown made for them, could nevertheless enjoy something about Dior. David Canfield: Yeah. Um, there is a nice bit of connection between this project and _The Crown_ when Ada, Ada says, I love Princess Margaret. Lesley Manville: I, but that was in the script already. David Canfield: I'm sure. Lesley Manville: It wasn't, it wasn't put in. It wasn't put in for me because obviously Princess Margaret did go and get clothes made by Dior and um, and obviously also, you know, the fifties, Margaret was at the absolute height of her fame as it were. She was, she was the most photographed woman and remains I think the most photographed woman, because, you know, she just, yeah, that was, she was there on, she was, she was the woman in the UK who was- you wanted on the front cover of your magazine or your newspaper. David Canfield: Yeah. Have you, have you had an experience like that with characters who are in conversation with each other as it were? It's it's interesting to me because you know, you're, you're playing Mrs. Harris, this woman who is so looking up to this character who you are then coming to embody who has all of this historical and cultural significance. There's a, there's an interesting link there, I think. Lesley Manville: Oh, well there, well, there is, of course, not least of all cause they're kind of poles apart aren't they as, as, as, as women. But, um, no, it's been wonderful. It is wonderful playing Margaret. I've still got to do a bit, bit more of her, you know? David Canfield: Yeah. Lesley Manville: There's so much, there was so much, uh, wonderful stuff to read, but in a way you have to read all that, let it, let it sink in and then forget about it. Because finally, what you're doing is a drama. It is Princess Margaret, but it does, as everyone knows, who's watched the series. It does play around with chronology and it has to make, it has to make a program that's interesting and watchable, and it isn't a documentary. So, you know, I love, I love the places the series has taken Margaret and the way it's, the way, it's the way it's captured her in all these different stages of her life, you know, and I'm obviously playing her in the last, um- David Canfield: The final act. At least in terms of the series. Lesley Manville: The, the last kind of 15 years of her life, you know, which was very different kind of woman to the one you've you've seen in the previous seasons. David Canfield: Hmm. Uh, I wanted to ask you about, uh, an open letter you'd signed on to the Acting Your Age petition. Lesley Manville: Oh yeah. David Canfield: And just both how you got involved in that and, and how, what that said about where your careers been, what kind of struggles you faced being a woman who's gotten older in this industry is any woman in the industry has, um, and what you hope comes of something like that? Lesley Manville: Well, I mean, I was just asked to sign the petition. I can't remember who by now, but, um, clearly it was one I wanted to put my name to and part, I mean, not least of all, because you know, that is no denying. I'm doing very well. And that I've worked constantly through my fifties and I'm now working constantly through my sixties. And I'm not just playing the wife, the mother to somebody who's the more interesting character, I am playing the interesting characters. But there's not enough of it around. So that's why I'm wanting to write, put my name to those, um, causes because it needs to get, it needs to get better so that more of my peers have more work, but I think there is a shift. I, I think it's very clear that there's an appetite for women of my age, my generation to watch interesting drama that where they are represented. Um, and like, you know, Emma Thompson's got this film out now where we are dealing very much with a woman's sense of her own sexuality and indeed her own sexual activity. And it's there, it's out there. It's not a kind of... a woman over 50 having sex and being interested in sex? I mean, you know, come on. David Canfield: Yeah. Lesley Manville: And just trying, trying to say, well, yes, it's funny that isn't it women over 50 and 60 don't think of themselves as being unsexy, un sexual or not needing or wanting sex and romance, you know, it's, let's just get that one out of the way. But, so there is a, there is a shift happening, but there needs to be... there needs to be more, more parts still and yeah, the attitude needs to just carry on widening and being more inclusive. David Canfield: Yeah, I think in your experience, I would guess it's somewhat twofold where you have those broader cultural, slower cultural shifts you're talking about, and also, I, I know you've talked about _Phantom Thread_ and how that maybe marked a new shift is particularly in Hollywood for you. Lesley Manville: Yes. People that have come to me through, basically _Phantom Thread_ and maybe a few of the later Mike Leigh films, you know, they kind of think you've just suddenly been, you did something else for 20, 30 years. But, you know, I feel where I am now is an absolute development of working from when I was 16 and doing so many plays and working on with so many fantastic playwrights and directors. Um, and I do see my work A, in the theater and B with Mike Leigh as being the work that was so formative, you know? I think theater's incredibly important for an actor. Um, and, and I think that it's not, it's not as attractive to younger actors these days. The smart ones are doing it. Jodi Comer is doing it. You know, she knows that that's, that's where, that's where you're gonna learn stuff and that's where you are gonna get better. And, you know, she, I haven't seen her play yet, but I, I know that it's, um... but people I respect who have seen you have said, you know, it's an extraordinary bit of acting and... but, you know, theater is, is a very, has been a very important part of my life. But, and I, you know, and I, I don't mind that it's all been a lot of people say, oh, it's a late flowering career. Well, I thought it was pretty flowering in the, in my twenties when I was getting to work with Carol Churchill at the Royal Court Theater and the National Theater and the Royal Shakespeare company. It was pretty flowering for me then, but of course, people are measuring it in terms of fame I suppose, and success and, you know, Oscar nominations and BAFTA nominations. And that's, that's the measure that a lot of people want to use. And that's, that's fine because they're right. It is, if you look at it in that way, it's definitely got, uh, a momentum and it's continuing to have a momentum. And which is great because I am in my sixties and a lot of people expect it to be getting quieter, but it's it's, I couldn't be more busy if I tried. David Canfield: Uh, there's a, a Twitter account that posts Oscar clips, clips per of the performances played at the Oscars. Lesley Manville: Oh, I'm not on Twitter as you probably know. David Canfield: I, so I'm gonna explain. Um, but yours, uh, played, I think right when the account started last year and it, it went far and wide viral. Um- Lesley Manville: Did it? David Canfield: Yes, it did. And there's that, I also noticed listening to it that there is just enormous audience applause when the clip ends in the, in the Oscar's theater. I don't know if you remember that. Lesley Manville: There was, I know, I do. I do. Listen, I do remember the Oscars. Yes, I do remember that. And they played the, the bit, you know, when the breakfast table with Daniel Day Lewis and I don't pick a fight with me, you certainly won't come out alive. It it's a, it's a great clip. David Canfield: It's a, it's a great scene. Lesley Manville: And it did, it got a big whoop in the audience, so I thought, yay good. That's pretty good. That was, yeah, that was a good day. I, I met Steven Spielberg and I, he came up to say hello to Daniel, who I was sitting next to at the Oscars and, and I thought, well, I hope, I hope Daniel introduces me to Steven, and Steven turned to me and said, " hello, Lesley." Well, my life was made. Steven Spielberg knows who I am. What else can a girl want? David Canfield: Yeah, there's one thing I guess the movie can do . Lesley Manville: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. David Canfield: I've been a huge fan of your work, particularly with Mike Leigh and _Another Year_ is one of my favorite movies period. Lesley Manville: It's one of my favorites as, as well. I mean, if anyone asks me what my standout Mike Leigh would be, I mean, they've all been amazing and it's because of the range of parts he's given me that I don't think anyone pigeonholes me, but I, I, Mary has kind of got a special place really. But anyway, sorry, what were you saying? David Canfield: So I'm just curious, given how formative Mike Leigh was for you as an actor, particularly in films, what you learned about being on films, working with him and, and how sets work and, and how the craft works, because it is distinct from theater as you were mentioning. Lesley Manville: Yeah. Well, I've learned, I've learned masses through Mike and his cinematographer, Dick Pope, and I always tune in to their conversations about how the scene's gonna be shot. And, and Dick is so brilliant at obviously understanding the scene and the nature of the scene and the heartbeat behind the scene and knowing how the camera work will serve the emotion of the scene. I mean, that's what he's genius at. So I, I love it. I'm not one of those actors that just sort of doesn't care about what all the other departments are doing. I absolutely love listening to those conversations and yeah, it's one of the joys of it really, for me. David Canfield: Yeah, one other thing I thought of with _Phantom Thread_ is it is such an incredible craft movie. I mean, you had those costumes in that movie are unbelievable. Um, but it's also, it's Paul Thomas Anderson, so it's gonna look amazing and yes, imagine that was unique too, right? Lesley Manville: Oh my God. Well, I just love Paul. I just love him. We had such a great time. I mean, 14 of the best weeks of my life, my working life. Just wonderful because he kind of left me to it in the beginning. You know, he very unprescriptive. Let me come to set and start to do my thing. But once you start doing your thing, he's, he sees all these things that you're doing, and then he gets all fired up and then he's, and then you're just the pair of you. The pair of us were just cooking with gas on a daily basis. It was, it was absolutely joyous and such good fun. I mean, there were times when he'd have to leave the room because he was laughing so much. He just had to get up and walk out because he could, he couldn't watch the take without laughing. David Canfield: Did you expect it to be that funny? You know, it's, he's not always known for comedy and you, you see the logline for the movie and you maybe don't expect what both you and Daniel bring to it in that respect. Lesley Manville: Well, because there's a kind of ridiculousness to those characters isn't there. David Canfield: Yeah. Lesley Manville: And you know, the, if you analyze the situation or there has these, this brother and sister, and they've kind of always been together, they run this company together. She knows him better than anybody in the world. She's getting rid of his girlfriends for him. I mean, it's this weird setup. Very, very strange. And of course Daniel's character is, would- Reynolds is this is this man child really. And she's trying her best not to enable it, but you know, there's only so much she can do, but yeah. So, so there there's humor, there's dry, dry humor in that setup, because it's not as you'll of spotted. It's not kind of out and out comic- comedic. It's, you know, you, you can watch Cyril take off her glasses and tidy her hair. And, and that's funny in itself because you just think how more anal is this woman going to be, you know. David Canfield: Yeah. Uh, well, I think you go from that to Mrs. Harris and you do see, uh, a chameleon to go back to where we started it is- Lesley Manville: Oh, well- David Canfield: that's quite different. Lesley Manville: Honestly, that is what it's not just having that label that pleases me, but I'd get bored otherwise. I would get bored if I only ever played the Ada's of this world or only ever played the Cyril's, it would be, wouldn't be so much fun. So yeah. David Canfield: Well, I think we're having a lot of fun watching you. Uh, Lesley, thank you so much. This was great. Lesley Manville: Thank you, David. It was nice talking to you. Thank you. Katey Rich: That does it for today's episode. We'll be back next week. Thank you for bearing with our shifted release schedule with the Emmy nominations. Uh, in the meantime, find us at vanityfair.com or on Twitter @littlegoldmen or on our own. I'm @kateyrich and David. And please text us at subtext 213-513-7215. Our editor and producer as always is Brett Fuchs.