Katey Rich: Hello, and welcome to _Little Gold Men_ the award season podcast from _Vanity Fair_. Intro: "It's such an honor to present this next award." "And here are the nominees." "And the Oscar goes to..." "And the Oscar goes to..." "And I can't deny the fact that you like me. Right now, you like me." "I'm the king of the world!" "There's a mistake, _Moonlight_, you guys won best picture." Katey Rich: I am Katey Rich and I'm here on Emmy nominations day with my usual crew of David Canfield. David Canfield: Hello. Katey Rich: Rebecca Ford. Rebecca Ford: Hi. Katey Rich: And Richard Lawson. Richard Lawson: Hello. Katey Rich: I changed up the order. I don't know, Emmy's have really thrown me off. Richard Lawson: Well, this is their award.... this is awards. I mean, this is David and Rebecca's time to get primacy, I think for sure. Katey Rich: Well, uh, this is where we all just start number crunching and trying to figure out how anything has happened the way that it did. Um, we have a lot of Emmy nominations to discuss and a lot of snubs to discuss, which was inevitable in some way. Um, to start with the top line, _Succession_ led the nomination total with 25 followed by _Ted Lasso_ and _White Lotus_, which tied at 20. Um, all of which I think were expected heavy hitters going into this. Though I think the extent to which _Succession _and _Ted Lasso_ and _Hacks _kind of held onto their supremacy, um, surprised me a little bit. Oh, where do I even start? That's my surprise. Who wants to go with their next surprise from what was on here? Either a snub or something that succeeded more than you expected. Rebecca Ford: I'm really excited for _Abbott Elementary_. Katey Rich: Yeah, I knew you'd say that. Rebecca Ford: This is something I talked about in our, you know, last episode where we were pushing for the shows we, and the performances we wanted to highlight. And, and, you know, obviously I think we felt pretty secure that it was gonna get in for comedy series, but to see, you know, so many of the actors get nominated, I just think is really exciting. They, they do such great work and I feel like sometimes, uh, you know, on a sort of ensemble sitcom like that, they wouldn't get that kind of attention. So, you know, to see Quinta, but, but also Sheryl Lee Ralph and Janelle James get nominated is just really, really cool. Katey Rich: Or even Tyler James Williams, who I think, you know, as a, as far as I can tell like the only major male role on the show, and I think it's in the supporting acting nominations like that, or like _Ted Lasso_ showing up for Toheeb Jimoh. Like that's when, you know, a show is really beloved when it gets surprising nominations like that. Rebecca Ford: And he's been working in sitcom since he was like four, so congratulations. Katey Rich: I'm gonna pull up his IMDB right now. Um, alright David pleasant surprise from you then. David Canfield: Uh, pleasant surprise.... it wasn't nominated for limited series, uh, which is a really messy category, but _Station Eleven_ got seven nominations and I was expecting far fewer. Uh, if I had my way would probably win that category. Um, and seeing Himesh Patel get in for best actor over many Oscar winners, um, was a really delightful surprise for me. You know, it's not the showiest performance, but it's just such a lovely, subtle, really affecting anchor for that show. It also got in for both writing and directing, uh, so there was definitely a lot of support for it and you have to think it came up close against the likes of _Pam & Tommy_ and _Inventing Anna_, which were the, the populous choices let's say. Um, I was also really thrilled for _Abbott Elementary_. I, I think the _White Lotus_ is definitely overkill. But, seeing actors like Natasha Rothwell... Katey Rich: Yeah. David Canfield: Cited alongside Jennifer Coolidge and Connie Britton. And Alexandra Daddario, who I think is really underrated in that show too. Um, nominations for everybody in _White Lotus_, why not? They're all great. Katey Rich: Yeah. David Canfield: And, um, you know, it is nice to see several actors who had really great years beyond the _White Lotus_, Sydney Sweeney, also nominated for that and _Euphoria_, uh, get those mentions because they did have a great year and they were great in that show, so I have no complaints. Katey Rich: Eight actors from the _White Lotus_ were nominated. Eight. Uh, including five actresses, which is you would be worried about them if Jennifer Coolidge wasn't such a runaway favorite in there. Like they're all going to lose to her, which is fine. Um, but man, that is spreading the wealth. David Canfield: Well, the other two are both from _Dopesick_, so they're gonna split too. It's, it's literally two shows in that category. Katey Rich: Um, Richard, I wanna get into the limited series mess, but why don't you throw in a, a pleasant surprise first. Richard Lawson: Oh, um, I like to see, _I Think You Should Leave with Tim Robinson_ getting in, in the short form categories, um, for his performance and for the show overall, that's exciting. Um, fun to see _RuPaul's Drag Race: Untucked!_ in a reality category. _Selling Sunset_ is now an Emmy nominee. I don't know if that ha happened with past seasons, but um... Katey Rich: As, as what was predicted in the, uh, the prophecy, right? Richard Lawson: Yeah. I don't watch that show, but I just think it's interesting to see the Emmys, in at least some cases, turning toward populism and saying, yeah, sure come on to the party. Whereas they kind of rejected that elsewhere. I mean, it's interesting that _Selling Sunset_ is nominated at these Emmys, but, uh, I believe _This Is Us_ is not? David Canfield: _This Is Us_ is not. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Katey Rich: For nothing. No, no categories for _This Is Us. _ David Canfield: I think it has one nomination um, on the list. Katey Rich: It does. I have outstanding original music and lyrics. I'm just looking it up. David Canfield: There you go. Katey Rich: Uh, same with _Yellowstone,_ which, um, we were talking about a little bit before we started recording, but, um, you know, much discussed most popular show in America to, I, I didn't necessarily expect it to like clean up, although I think we discussed it, but for it to get nothing at all, that surprised me. David Canfield: Yeah, it has that, that really does have zero. I think it was a bit of misplaced confidence in a show that just isn't reaching the television academy demographic voting body. Um, it, it never has. It was extremely popular two years ago. It's extremely popular, popular now. And I do think it's had some crossover appeal in this past season, but overall, yeah, it's, it's not, it's, it's not landing with these, uh, voters and it probably never will because it was a really big campaign this season. Katey Rich: Yeah. Um, I mean, we, David, you're doing some kind of psychoanalysis of the voters and what they had time to watch and didn't, um, while talking about the limited series race. So let's, let's jump back to that, because in some ways it's like the most visible Emmy race. At least when, you know, it's us and every week there's some new show to discuss and we knew it was gonna be a blood bath with all of these huge shows that premiered in the spring, which you've also discussed. But like, how did that all shake out? How does _WeCrashed_ get nothing, David, how did this happen? David Canfield: Uh, it was definitely a case of too much. I mean, all of those April / May premieres underperformed best. _Under the Banner of Heaven_ has one nomination for Andrew Garfield. _The Staircase_ has two nominations for Toni Collette and Colin Firth. Uh, _The First Lady_, which was another April premiere underperformed. _Gaslit_ underperformed, um, _WeCrashed_ underperformed. Whereas shows that premiered earlier like _Pam & Tommy_ and _Inventing Anna,_ both were more broad appealing to begin with, if not, as well reviewed, um, but also premiered earlier and had more time to find their audience and premiered before there were 10 limited series streaming at the same time, which shocker, is not the best strategy for finding an audience. Um, and I think that was clearer this year than I've ever seen it before. It felt that way for us watching, like as regular viewers, and so it makes sense that that would be the same case for the television academy. Um, I mean, even Sarah Paulson getting nominated for _Impeachment_. You know, that was a fall show that had a lot of time. It wasn't very, you know, widely watched at the time, but there are all these little indications that shows that aired earlier had more time to stick with Emmy voters. Um, so I think that the spring glut did not pay off. Katey Rich: Yeah. Or even, uh, _Candy_, which we discussed on this show and on _Still Watching,_ which got, uh, one nomination for main title design, which were very good I would say. David Canfield: They were very good. Katey Rich: Um, Rebecca, what do you think about how the limited series, uh, category shook out? Rebecca Ford: I mean, I feel like we always knew this was gonna be... there were gonna be a lot of losers just because it- there's just so much this year. It feels like more than ever. And, and I think we've been saying that for the last few years. Um, but I, I, I like a lot of what David is saying when it comes to, to the theory and I, I will also read his piece when it's up, but, um, to me, the _Inventing Anna_ of it all is, is the most curious thing to me, but I don't have the answer as to why. Richard Lawson: I, I think most galling about the _Inventing Anna_ thing is that it was nominated for outstanding depiction of how a magazine works. Katey Rich: And we lobbied against that category entirely. Richard Lawson: Yeah. I mean, and it's the only nominee, so, it's probably gonna win. Katey Rich: Okay. So Richard talk- like _Inventing Anna_ feels like a real, uh, feather in the cap for Netflix in some ways, which it did pretty well I think. It gets _Stranger Things_ in there in, uh, drama series, and _Squid Game_, obviously and _Ozark_ are still huge. Do you think that there's like a single network or streamer or anyone who really has the most bragging rights today? Richard Lawson: HBO. David Canfield: Yeah. Katey Rich: Yeah. As usual. Richard Lawson: I mean, 14 acting nominations for _Succession_. Katey Rich: Fourteen?! Richard Lawson: Yeah. Yeah. because that's guest actors and supporting and lead, and I mean, imagine being the 15th. I don't know who that would be. Katey Rich: Uh, Dasha from Red Scare, right? Richard Lawson: Yeah. Well, I don't... not so... I'm not upset for her. But, but yeah, I, I think HBO, you know, that they're, they're doing comedy successfully, they're doing drama success- I mean, they have _Hacks_ and _Barry_ on, on two different, you know, one is HBO normal and the other's max. Uh, _Station Eleven,_ uh, I mean _The Staircase_ getting a couple that's great. Uh, obviously _White Lotus_ with 20 nominations. Like HBO is just doing this better than everyone else at this moment. David Canfield: Hmm. Katey Rich: I mean, if there, if I had to pick a second place, I think it has to be Hulu. Like looking at just, you know, I'm looking at this document where it has it by network and seeing that huge list for _Pam & Tommy_, and then also _Dopesick_, and then also _Only Murders in the Building_ and _The Great_, which did pretty well. Like that's a, that's a big hall for, you know, a company that is owned by Disney and you don't, you don't know what's on Hulu and what's on FX. Like they're, they're doing pretty well. David Canfield: Yeah. And those are all their own programs. _Abbott Elementary_ was watched by a lot of people on Hulu, so was _What We Do in the Shadows._ I would say most of its audience is probably Hulu. Uh, _Banner of Heaven_, which was nominated for Andrew Garfield, um, is, I think, technically also Hulu show. It's only airs on Hulu. Katey Rich: It's listed under FX, but as usual with FX and Hulu, the line between them is very fuzzy for the rest of us. David Canfield: Yes. It's hard for me to keep track. Richard Lawson: _The Great_ is interesting because one of the stories from 2020 was that, that show, which got a lot of good reviews and stuff, only got a, a, you know, two nominations for writing and directing. Nothing for the performers. And now for season two, they have them and so clearly something about Hulu's campaigning insisted it into the sort of toward the top of the viewing pile for enough voters. You know, and maybe the same is true... I mean, _Pam & Tommy,_ I think that to me is, is weird because I don't think that's a very good show. I think the performances are, are good, but I, I think that in addition to Hulu campaign, uh, success I think it's also that, that story, obviously for a certain age of a voter probably feels recent enough to feel very relevant. And like, oh yeah, let's revisit that weird thing that was adjacent to our industry or overlapping some with our industry, um, that really, as the show, I think struggles to kind of argue in a compelling way, uh, helped change the game of everything surrounding everyone who's voting for this thing. You know, who, you know, everyone in the industry, what fame is, how fame it manifests. Like, um, I can see _Pam & Tommy_ having that relevance. And I'm sure that Hulu did a good job of communicating that somehow. Even just beyond the text of the show, uh, to the voters. Katey Rich: Yeah. That's a really good point. It, it makes me wonder about the, our true crime boom that we talked about so much with all those spring shows like is, is that over before it began? Like it, it's not as relevant to voters as this other stuff. David Canfield: It clearly didn't land. Right? I mean, I, I think it's interesting that even _The Dropout_, you know, it did get into limited series and Amanda Seyfried will almost surely win that best actress category. But you know, they nominated Seth Rogan for _Pam & Tommy_ over in Navine Andrews for _The Dropout._ Katey Rich: Yeah. Yeah. David Canfield: Which to me says a lot about the standing of those two shows. _Pam & Tommy_ has more nominations overall and it, it got in a lot of key areas where I thought _The Dropout_ would. Um, but it didn't. So yeah, the, the tech shows us mostly underperformed, as did the true crime shows. Katey Rich: What if, uh, Julia Garner is now this like dark horse contender for actress in a limited series or movie, because how much they love _Inventing Anna_? You never know what's gonna happen. David Canfield: Fair question. Katey Rich: Um, Rebecca, you talked about _Abbott Elementary_ as kind of this bright shining light in the comedy thing. I mean, I think we could see how competitive the comedy categories are, like in the best actors, actress category, where Selena Gomez was this surprising snub. Like, do you think it's just gonna be _Ted Lasso_ and _Hacks_ all over again? Or has the, the landscape changed now that we know the nominees? Rebecca Ford: It does feel like _Ted Lasso _is unbeatable, doesn't it at a certain point? And you know, it comes in with 20 nominations. It just feels like totally unbeatable. I mean, I would love to see a surprise. There's so many good shows in this category, but I, I, I feel like I would back _Ted Lasso_ if I was a betting woman right now. Katey Rich: David, what happened with Julia? How did that just strike out in comedy? We were so high on it. David Canfield: Maybe just one too many HBO contenders? I, I also think it's a really nice gentle show. Uh, it doesn't do a lot to stand out or make itself known. You need to be flashy, I think, to get Emmy nominations increasingly. I am pretty shocked that _Hacks_ managed 17 nominations for season two. It just, yeah. You know, it was well reviewed, but it just felt a lot quieter coming in. I think that's definitely affirms that Jean Smart is unbeatable. Hopefully we don't have a complete repeat in the comedy categories. I mean, _Only Murders_ did get 17 nominations, which is a pretty huge hall for a first year show. So, it's also really well positioned because it's airing a very well received second season right now that's quite popular. So, um, that would be the one I would look to spoil. I just can't see _Hacks_ doing even as well as it did last year. It won both writing and directing. I don't think that that will happen again. Katey Rich: Yeah. David Canfield: The other, uh, network we should probably talk about is Apple. I mean, they did get _Ted Lasso_, but _Severance_ also got 14 nominations, which is the same as _Squid Game_. God, I don't think any of us would've expected that before today. Katey Rich: Yeah. I mean, getting those two supporting nominations for John Turturro and Christopher Walken, like that's a really a nice surprise and also indication of how, how much that show succeeded. David Canfield: Yep. Rebecca Ford: And I do think when we're talking about Apple for phase two now they, they have one comedy series and one drama series they have to push. Whereas, you know, HBO is juggling _Hacks_ and _Barry_ and _Curb_ in comedy and, uh, _Euphoria_ and_ Succession_ in drama. So I think- Katey Rich: And _White Lotus. _ Rebecca Ford: And _White Lotus_, like, so I think Apple- you know, I'm, I'm bummed that _Pachinko_ did not, uh, get in, but when we're looking at what's gonna happen in the next, uh, you know, month or two, I think Apple being able to sort of focus its efforts will, will probably benefit it. Katey Rich: But Rebecca, _The Morning Show_ has three major acting nominations. Rebecca Ford: Oh, excuse me. I somehow forgot _The Morning Show_. Katey Rich: The, the longevity of the, I mean, the, the stereotype of the Emmys for so long was just like, they keep nominating the same things over and over again. And I think they have proven that wrong plenty of times and there's lots of new stuff in here, but then you see stuff like _The Morning Show_ like saying relatively strong. You're like maybe there is a point where if you're in the club, you never get out. David Canfield: They also made weird choices on _The Morning Show_ though, like they dropped Jennifer Aniston and nominated Reese Witherspoon instead. I felt like Julianna Margulies was probably the buzziest supporting performance. They didn't nominate that, but they kept Billy Crudup in. It's... I don't understand how _The Morning Show _performs at the Emmy's at all, ever. Katey Rich: Yeah. They nominated Marcia Gay Harden, right? David Canfield: Yeah. And that one I get. I mean, she's an Oscar, Tony winner who gets a fun kind of villainous role in a show that they clearly watch. So that, that makes sense to me. I, I expected her to be nominated. Katey Rich: Yeah. I had to do our guest actress on drama series predictions and it was so freaking hard. Like I picked three people from_ Succession, _which was the right thing to do and then beyond that, there's just no telling. Rebecca Ford: I think with _The Morning Show_, it's like a messy show is reflected in messy nominations. It's just like chaos, here you go. David Canfield: That's it. Katey Rich: God, speaking of messy, how did Jodie Comer and Sandra Oh get nominated again for like one of the most reviled season finales I can remember. David Canfield: And over Mandy Moore for a very well received final season. Katey Rich: Yeah. Like, is that, is that a box checking kind of thing where you remember that you like them and you just go for it? David Canfield: I think so. I mean, the Emmy's nominating process is- they have an unlimited ballot. You can check off as many people as you want. And that to me is the only explanation for how both of those actresses could make it in here. Um, Katey Rich: Wait, what does that mean? Like when you have your ballot, you don't have to pick like a certain number. You just check off everyone you like? David Canfield: Correct. Katey Rich: Why? David Canfield: Um... Rebecca Ford: TV is friendlier than film. That's what it is. Katey Rich: They're like, we like everyone. Everyone gets invited. David Canfield: That's why you have five White Lotus and two _Dopesick_ actresses making up the entirety of the sporting actress category for limited. Katey Rich: That's wild. Yeah. I mean, then you can like, you run into someone you're like, I voted for you. You don't have to lie about it. David Canfield: Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, it's, it's a bizarre system, but I do think that you probably have, you probably have a situation where if you're voting for one, you're voting for the other. And there were evidently enough people who did that. I mean, I think it's kind of a shame too, that _Severance_ could get so many actors nominated, but Britt Lower couldn't break in over them. Katey Rich: Yeah. David Canfield: Uh, for lead actress, um, you know, the Emmys have those weird balances between inspired nominations and really tired overdone ones. Um, but you know, I do feel like, you know, looking at the drama category, you have 35 nominations between _Yellow Jackets, Severance_ and _Squid_ _Game, _which are all new shows. That's pretty significant. That feels like a larger hall for dramatic, for drama freshmen than what they usually do. So, you know, there are indications that they definitely, on mass watched some of the new stuff and really embraced that. Katey Rich: Yeah. I was struck that _Yellow Jackets_ has got two writing nominations. I think it's the only show that did. Um, that's a, that's an impressive, uh, show of how strong it is. And we can all pause to celebrate Melanie Lynskey, who we've, you know, praised endlessly on this show, but getting that- her nomination was expected, but was a real thrill to see in that lineup. David Canfield: Yeah, absolutely. Katey Rich: I don't watch _Better Call Saul_, but I got enough wind of it that I knew that Rhea Seehorn was really the cause celeb, uh, David, I think from you largely. Uh, so seeing her, uh, get nominated and, and supporting actress in a drama series was great. But then I could, I was stunned that Sarah Goldberg over in comedy did not make it in. And that, that just has to be some weird, like quirk of the ballot thing. Like she was such a standout in this season of _Barry_ and _Barry_ got so many nominations. That's such like what a painful, weird accident. David Canfield: Yeah. I, I remember thinking at the beginning of the season, she probably wouldn't come back, but it, it felt like by the end she had such incredible material. She was so good. And the show was clearly such a hit that I didn't see how she could miss, but it, it does seem like, you know, they, they wanted to make room for Sarah Niles for _Ted Lasso_, evidently. She's the third _Ted Lasso_ actress in that category, which I'm happy about. I thought she, she was one of my favorite parts of the new season. _Abbott Elementary,_ they went for both Janelle James and Sheryl Lee Ralph, which was a bit of a surprise. Again, thrilled to see that. Um, and then you have Alex Borstein, Hannah Einbinder, Kate McKinnon, Hannah Waddingham, and Juno Temple, who you knew would be nominated. And so, yeah, I think it was just, it was a really competitive category. And unfortunately, for whatever reason, there just wasn't the passion there that evidently there was for those other performances or, or maybe just for shows. I, I, you know, I think clearly _Ted_ _Lasso _and_ Abbott Elementary_ were favorites for this acting branch overall. Richard Lawson: Is it possible given Sarah Goldberg's arc on this season of _Barry_ where her character gets the dream opportunities she's always wanted and then they fall apart, partly because of a shift in her temperament? Mostly because of other outside things. But like the, the way that, that character and so brilliantly, played is a study in like genuine earnest ambition and pure intent commingling pretty badly with vanity. Maybe people in the academy were like, I don't like to see me. That's not good. Uh, you know, I, I don't think that's probably what happened, but like you, you never know. Katey Rich: It's pretty raw. Like even if you're not in the industry, I think you can watch her and, and like see enough of the worst parts of yourself, which is such a, a testament to how great that performance is. But you might have a point, Richard. Richard Lawson: Oh, I mean, I, you know, I will defend the importance of criticism up to the point that I'm reading Good Reads reviews of my book. You know, then these people are just, you know, don't they don't know anything, and why would they say anything if it was negative? You know, so, like, I think that like confronting the contradictions of being a creative person in a highly charged industry, like television, which is where Sarah Goldberg's character heads in, in _Barry._ Yeah. I don't know. Maybe something was a little too close to, to the bone. David Canfield: Yeah, I think so. And she, she could also be a victim of the fact that _Barry_ often doesn't feel like a comedy. Richard Lawson: Right. David Canfield: In this race especially, you have a lot of broadly comic performances. And clearly that was favored. Katey Rich: Looking at- as I look at the comedy category in general, and look, the guest actor in a comedy series category is so confusing, cause you read Jerrod Carmichael for _Saturday Night Live_, not for _Rothaniel_, which maybe we can talk about more David, where it was nominated. Bill Hader for _Curb Your Enthusiasm_, and then it's just all _Ted Lasso_, _Only Murders in the Building,_ and _Hacks._ Um, I had to look up James Lance for _Ted Lasso_, because that name wasn't familiar. He plays Trent Crimm. Like that's how much _Ted Lasso_ was beloved this year. That, and then Sam Richardson for, uh, I think a pretty funny role, but like very small appearance at the end of it. Very, um, yeah, just that's that is the _Ted Lasso_ power that all of these people are on there. And then Harriet Walter getting nominated for _Ted Lasso_ and also _Succession_ because, you know, she's Harriet Walter. She can do it. Richard Lawson: Double nominee like Sydney Sweeney. Katey Rich: I saw your tweet, Richard. Richard Lawson: Oh, that, that, that Harriet Walter and Sydney Sweeney are counterparts. Katey Rich: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. The British and American versions. Richard Lawson: Yeah. They're I mean, they've- I've always thought of them that way. Katey Rich: Is Sydney Sweeney, who we thought from the _Success- _or from the, uh,_ Euphoria_ supporting cast would get the nomination this year. Cause I, I didn't feel like she was the breakthrough I heard as much about. Richard Lawson: Uh, that bathroom scene was so- David Canfield: Yeah, I think she was. I think she was. Richard Lawson: Yeah, that bathroom scene was so meme'd and passed around. And, uh, I, I think that what was written for her character in, in this season of _Euphoria_ it was kind of appalling. Like I just, I don't, she just lost all humanity kind of, I think in the show's view of her. But, um, the, it was a good performance and it was a, a, a big standout performance, you know? So. Katey Rich: So David, what happened with _Rothaniel_? Jerrod Carmichael is an Emmy nominee several times over, so we can celebrate that. But did, how, how, how did Dave, how does Dave Chappelle's like Netflix walk out inspiring special, get nominated instead? David Canfield: I have, I have no answer for that. I'm taking it slightly personally. I mean, it, it is bizarre to me that it wasn't just because of comedy specials, particularly in 2022, it was the far and away breakout. And usually those do get nominated here. He was nominated for writing, Bo Burnham was nominated for directing, so it got, you know, everything but the main category. And Jerrod was also nominated for SNL. He's the only SNL host nominated for guest acting, which feels like- Katey Rich: Usually you get like three or four. David Canfield: Yeah. And I mean, I thought he was great, but I also wouldn't have said he was the best host of the season. So it it's quite curious and it almost feels deliberate because he shows up everywhere, but the main category. Yeah. I, I think that there should be a lot of scrutiny over that Dave Chappelle nomination given that he was not nominated in that category because you know, both were pretty widely watched I think it's safe to say and it's curious why one would be nominated over the other. Katey Rich: When you look at the variety special prerecorded category, it makes me wonder if this category should exist because it's such a strange- it's Adele concert movie, Dave Chappelle, the Harry Potter reunion, Norm Macdonald special, and then, uh, evening with Tony Bennett and Lady Gaga. Like I, I- David Canfield: Like what, like what? Katey Rich: Yeah. What is, what is this category? Because, you know, then you get to the live version of it where it's like the Grammy's and the Oscars. Actually did the Oscars get nominated. Oh no, they, yeah, they did. David Canfield: They did. Katey Rich: Um, oh yeah there's our opportunity to relive that night. Um, so anyway, I wonder if like best comedy special is what should happen and make some more sense outta this category. David Canfield: I think they need to rework the entirety of the variety categories at this point. They're having a lot of problems with sketch series, as we've talked about, it's the same two nominees once again. _Black Lady Sketch Show _and_ Saturday Night Live._ Katey Rich: You wanna do a quick explainer on why that is it's it's something about the amount of eligible shows, right? David Canfield: Yeah. There are only eight shows submitted for consideration. And they have, you know, kind of a sliding scale on how many nominees there will be based on the amount of submissions. It's not a fixed number. And so as long as there's less than 10. Last year, it was nine, this year was eight. Um, there will only be two nominees. Yeah. And they nixed the variety performer category, which is why you now have all the _SNL_ actors mixed in with the, um, series actors. You have, like you said, Katey, a variety special prerecorded category that mixes concerts and comedy specials and all kinds of things. Um, and then even the Late Night category, uh, they were only gonna nominate four shows and the showrunners had to petition the television academy to add a fifth slot again, because there were less submissions, which is how Seth Meyers got nominated. Katey Rich: Which is great because people have been lobbying for that for years. David Canfield: Um, but it just feels like each of these categories is either shapeless or kind of barren. And there's a way to recognize more of the work because there's a lot of good work in sketch area that just literally cannot be nominated because there aren't enough. There isn't enough competition. Um, it feels like should be reworked in some way, but I don't really know how. Katey Rich: Well, the continuing problem of television is that there's just too much of it. And trying like, you know, expecting people to be stumped from the Emmys is one thing, but there are creative ways to not like invent new categories to hand people awards, but like change the rules so that more stuff can get in there. It, it doesn't hurt anybody. Rebecca Ford: It's interesting. When you're you bring up _SNL_ because a few years ago, I feel, like the supporting actor and actress categories were just packed with _SNL_ performers. And, and this year we only have, uh, Bowen and Kate McKinnon that got nominated. So that feels like a real shift. And, and maybe that's because there are so many hit comedies right now. And also _Ted Lasso_ takes up like half of each of these categories this year. So, um, but that's definitely an interesting switch. Katey Rich: Uh, I'm driving into two of my favorite recurring categories, which is outstanding narrator in a voiceover performance. And- David Canfield: Oh, I didn't see narrator. Katey Rich: Uh, oh, well, let me, let me give you the list of narrator, now, hang on. Uh, it's got Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, David Attenborough, W. Kamau Bell, Lupita Nyong'o, and Barack Obama all in the mix against you. I don't know how you pick among those. David Canfield: I don't, I don't think Barack Obama's losing that category. Katey Rich: All right. We're gonna, we're gonna take that prediction to the bank. Um, and then in the character voiceover performance, where you get, you know, everything from _Bridgerton _to_ Big Mouth_, um, both Chadwick Boseman, and Jessica Walter got postmus nominations, uh, which is kind of lovely. And then F. Murray Abraham, Stanley Tucci, Jeffrey Wright, Julie Andrews, and Mya Rudolph round out the category. David Canfield: Wow. Katey Rich: Uh, also the picture- David Canfield: Oh, a rare _Bridgerton_ nomination_._ Katey Rich: I know. Well, I mean, Do feel like Julie Andrews' voiceover in _Bridgerton _is a pretty essential element of it. And she's Julie Andrews. David Canfield: Very worthy nomination. Katey Rich: Also the picture of her on the Emmy site is from like Mary Poppin's era, which is really lovely to like see her. Richard Lawson: And you'd never know any differently, because it's just your voice. Katey Rich: I know. Richard Lawson: Um, the Laurie Metcalf picture looks on the Emmy's website, looks like it's like a promo still from _Roseanne_, like, you know, 25 years ago or something. Katey Rich: Wait, Laurie Metcalf, she didn't get nominated for _The Dropout,_ right? Richard Lawson: For _Hacks_ for guest- Katey Rich: For _Hacks_. That's right. Richard Lawson: Along with Harriet Sansom Harris, who was so good. David Canfield: It's a thrilling nomination, truly. Katey Rich: Yeah. I mean, _Hacks_ got four of the six guest actress category nominations. David Canfield: I could honestly defend each of them. That's, that's a, they had a stacked guest actress lineup on that ballot. Yeah. And, um, I'm not shocked that they all made it in. Richard Lawson: The Kaitlin Olson thing seems like a little bit of a fudge in a way, because like I think of her as a cast member, but I know that those they're like- David Canfield: I think she's only in one or two this season. Richard Lawson: Well, is that right? Yeah. Okay. I, I guess she was a bigger part in the first season. Yeah. Yeah. Katey Rich: Isn't that one of the few things that they like actually attach numbers to in terms of like who's a guest and who's a, uh, who's a actual supporting player? David Canfield: Cause Joan Cusack kept getting nominated for _Shameless_ and she was in every single episode for guest actress. Katey Rich: Well, Kaitlin Olson's only previous Emmy nomination was for outstanding actress in a short form comedy or drama series for something called _Flipped_. Richard Lawson: Um, that was a Quibi show. Katey Rich: Oh, wow. Uh, so good for her. I feel like this is a long overdue Emmy nomination for her then. I take it back, _Hack's_ can have as many nominations as it was. David Canfield: 17, maybe a lot, but... Katey Rich: 17. Uh, talking about snubs, I'm just looking at the networks. Uh, Peacock only got nominations for _Angeline,_ which honestly, you know, good for them. Uh, but _Girls5eva _once again, cruelly, snubbed, and even for songs, which is nuts. Um, any last snubs before we, I don't know, wrap up the Emmys for now, before we start talking about it again next week? David Canfield: I think it's worth noting that _The First Lady,_ which was designed to get Emmy nominations, did it did get three below the line. Um, but you put out in April. You had three movie stars, uh, Emmy favorites slash Oscar favorites at the helm and didn't get anything. And it's yeah, that was expected, I think, given the reviews and ratings, but still quite a fall from the hope for that show. Richard Lawson: Say what you will, but sometimes at least in these awards voting bodies, the thing does actually have to be good. Katey Rich: Um, well, I think we mentioned _Gaslit_ briefly at the beginning, but the fact that it got, you know, four technical nominations and it's a fricking Julia Roberts TV show. Um, I mean, I realized she made that Amazon series a couple years ago that also didn't really make a splash, but, and I liked _Gaslit_, um, but it just, you know, even, or Anne Hathaway in _WeCrashed_ like even massive, massive stars couldn't stand out. Rebecca Ford: Those type of performances are like the Oscar formula, right? The famous person playing a real person in the makeup and hair and, and like that still works in Oscar season, but does feel like with Emmy season that's, that's not enough. Katey Rich: That's an interesting theory. Richard Lawson: Yeah. I mean, I wrote in my review by somewhat negative review of _Gaslit_ that like, had that been a really interesting two and a half hour film, we would be having a very different conversation about it. And I, I think that my, I mean, I think that David is right primarily that it was just, those shows were in that crazy blitz of April-ish and things were gonna get lost. But I think also like, and to Rebecca's point, like TV's a different medium. I mean, I know that there's been a lot of talk about those lines blurring over the, in recent years, but like, and obviously there are some performances here that were very, you know, Lily James, big transformation, all that kind of stuff. But something about _WeCrashed_ or Gas_lit_ or whatever might have felt a little bit too much like homework or like vegetables. And they were like, you know, I can do that for a couple hours, but why am I gonna sit with this for 6, 7, 8 hours? You know? Um, and obviously _Super Pumped_ was one of those shows too. And I, I think in a weird way, as much as there was stuff to like about, you know, plenty of the things that got pretty much blanked, I find it a little heartening that somewhere, maybe some lines are being kind of reiterated, um, in terms of that TV vs movie thing. David Canfield: I think you're dead on. I mean, you had the following Oscar winners competing for best actress, Renée Zellweger, Viola Davis, Julia Roberts, Jessica Chastain, who was also not nominated. Katey Rich: Oh yeah. David Canfield: Who was a more recent nominee. And instead they nominated Sarah Paulson for a show we didn't think anybody watched. Um, I think that's actually, I think you're dead on Richard. I think that's really telling about what kind of choices they made in those categor. Richard Lawson: As Julia Roberts said when she came out to the Tony's to present something, having had terrible reviews in her one Broadway performance in _Three Days of Rain,_ well, I mean, she did more than one performance, but her one Broadway role. uh, she looked at the audience, flashed that, you know, million dollar smile, and said you are all so talented. And it was her basically saying, sorry, I like carpet bagged in here and tried to do what you guys do. And I don't know, maybe some of that sentiment, people are like, there are TV actors still who need this recognition. You movie stars go back to, you know, your thing. David Canfield: Yeah. And you were, you mentioned to me, Katey, the Toni Collette nomination, which actually is, is kind of interesting and curious. Um, because _The Staircase_ truly got nothing else, and Colin Firth was the face of that show. He was more of a lead than she was. Um, I, I found that really interesting that they nominated her, given the competition in the category. And given that I, I think she is the, you know, increasingly more known for her TV work. Like _Unbelievable,_ she won for _United States of Tara. _It also feels in line with that a little bit to me. Richard Lawson: I think there's other bias at work there too in that like, you know, famously a lot of Academy members have been attacked by owls. And so they saw themselves in that. Katey Rich: Uh, speaking of Jessica Chastain, I did wanna flag that, uh, her, uh, _Eyes of Tammy Fay_ director, Michael Showalter, now an Emmy nominated director. I, that is not the career turn I expected for, uh, the star of _Wet Hot American Summer_, but good for him. David Canfield: Good for him. Deserved. Katey Rich: Yeah. Oh yeah. I mean _The Dropout_ got two directing nominations in limited series, which is, um, just crazy, crazy deserved. And David, you were explaining to me how Mike White gets nominated for both writing and directing _White Lotus_ with no episodes attached because he wrote and directed all of them, which is bananas. David Canfield: This is back when Barry Levinson would direct an HBO movie and get nominated for it, but it's not an episode, it's a movie. And so they used to make it that mini series before they were limited series, which always had one writer, one director. They would submit as movies essentially, so it would not be for an episode, it would be for the whole thing. And so now that you don't have TV movies really competing at a serious level, um, by the way, Ben Foster is so great in _The Survivor_ and yeah, that just never really had a shot because they don't, they won't nominate them anymore. And it's such a weird gray area. Katey Rich: Um, _The Survivor_ did get nominated in the TV movie category. Uh, would you guys like the rest of the nominees in that category? Richard Lawson: It's a funny lineup. Katey Rich: Uh, _Chip 'n' Dale: Rescue Rangers_, which is a really good movie that I liked a lot. Uh, _Ray Donovan: The Movie_, which I didn't know happened. _Reno 911! The Hunt for QAnon_, I also didn't know happened. And then _Zoey's Extraordinary Christmas_, a Roku original movie adaptation of an NBC show that has been canceled. Right? David Canfield: So and no _Fresh_ by the way, which- Katey Rich: Right. Oh my God. Yeah. David Canfield: Was a, you know, a, you know, a well made movie that God, you got a lot of buzz outta Sundance and missed out to _Ray Donovan: The Movie_. I mean... Katey Rich: It doesn't bode well for _Good Luck to You, Leo Grande_ grand next year I'll tell you that. Richard Lawson: If, uh, if people have not, were not aware of the _Reno 911!_ Movie, it is pretty funny. So I would recommend watching it. Katey Rich: Well, then that, and _Rescue Rangers_ can make some endorsement out of the, uh, movie category. David Canfield: But how's _Ray Donovan: The Movie?_ We don't know. Richard Lawson: No one knows. Katey Rich: Uh, no, isn't there- no one will ever know. David Canfield: Um, everyone's dad just checked off. Katey Rich: Yeah. Well, they're all gonna go watch that and then, uh, complain about the Emmy's not nominating _Yellowstone_. David Canfield: Yes. Katey Rich: Um, well I guess that does it for the nominations conversation. We'll have lots more Emmy conversations, conversation with nominees. There's a lot to get into in the coming weeks. The Emmys will be on September 12th, which if you're keeping score is during the Toronto film festival. So please pray for us and our sleep and our, uh, attention spans. Um, but in the meantime, we got a lot of Emmy coverage on vanityfair.com. Uh, you can follow us on Twitter @littlegoldmen and on our own. I am @kateyrich. And Richard? Richard Lawson: @rilaws. Katey Rich: And David? David Canfield: @davidcanfield97. Katey Rich: And Rebecca? Rebecca Ford: @rebeccamford. Katey Rich: Also, please text us at joinsubtext.com/littlegoldmen or text 718-550-2059. Maybe we'll get into some of your burning Emmy questions next week. Our editor and producer is Brett Fuchs and this week's award for what Brett swears he says to us at the end of every episode goes to Richard Lawson, and Julia Roberts. Richard Lawson: You are all so talented.