Katey Rich: Hello, and welcome to _Little Gold Men_ the award season podcast from _Vanity Fair_. 

Intro: "It's such an honor to present this next award." "And here are the nominees." "And the Oscar goes to..." "And the Oscar goes to..." "And I can't deny the fact that you like me. Right now, you like me." "I'm the king of the world!" "There's a mistake, _Moonlight_, you guys won best picture." 

Katey Rich: I am Katie Rich, and I'm here for this interview episode joined by two of my colleagues. I have Rebecca Ford. 

Rebecca Ford: Hi. 

Katey Rich: And returning to join us again, Yohana Desta. 

Yohana Desta: Hello. 

Katey Rich: You guys are the lucky conductors of the this weeks two interviews. Uh, first we'll hear Yohana talking to Maude Apatow about her role in _Euphoria_ and then Rebecca will talk to Andrew Garfield about _Under the Banner of Heaven_. So let's start, Yohana, with you and Maude. You have been my kind of _Euphoria_ guide, uh, someone who is, uh, has the, I think the stomach to watch this show, which I still feel very anxious about. And when I was talking to you about who really had a standout role on the season, I think Maude was a really obvious one for you. What made this such a good season for her? 

Yohana Desta: Yeah, well, you know, it's kind of a slow burn for her character, but she really owns the finale. The spoiler alert, the show ends on a play that she has secretly been writing the entire time. And it's this weird kind of meta play about her sister and all her friends and it kind of torches the school down. Uh, so it's high, high drama, and she's really, really great as a maniacal theater kid. 

Katey Rich: Is that something that, uh, we saw the potential for her in previous seasons? Or was this really her coming out as a powerful character in an actress? 

Yohana Desta: Yeah. You know, last season she was really on the back burner and something that Maude told me is that when she signed on for the show, Sam told her, look- Sam Levinson the creator. Uh, he told her that season one is just going to be kind of slow going, but season two is really where her character is going to shine. So she's kind of been lying in wait. 

Katey Rich: Oh, that's interesting. That's that takes such patience I think as a young actor wanting to prove yourself to go through it a whole season knowing you have to wait.

Yohana Desta: Yeah. But you know, something that I didn't know before is that she had also starred in his film _Assassination Nation_. So she had worked with him before, so she kind of had that implicit trust in him that he was going to keep his word and really let her character shine in the second season. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. What else did you guys talk about in the interview?

Yohana Desta: Oh, we talked about all kinds of things. She had just gone to the Met Gala, so we talked about that. Um, we also talked about, I was so interested in the meta quality of her character this season, and the fact that her father, Judd, has also written things about his life and she's played meta versions of herself in his work. Um, and she talked a little bit about being inspired by that and how she's also writing something about her own life that she hopes to make someday. Um, yeah, which I think is really interesting. 

Katey Rich: Uh, well, I'm excited to hear your interview with Maude Apatow,. Uh, but first let's hear a word from our sponsors.

Yohana Desta: Hello. 

Maude Apatow: Hi! 

Yohana Desta: But yeah, I guess one quick question that I had, how are you, how was the Met Gala? You've been very busy and very glamorous. How were things? 

Maude Apatow: Oh, my gosh. Uh, the Met Gala was so scary, but so fun. It's so many weeks of buildup and anxiety about your outfit, your look, and then it sort of happened really quickly. It was very fun. Once I got there, I was, I could relax and have a good time. But yeah it's scary, it's so scary. 

Yohana Desta: It seems it's like a lot of stairs. It seems like a very intimidating atmosphere and space, but you looked so great. I loved the look that you were wearing. 

Maude Apatow: Thanks. 

Yohana Desta: Um, yeah. Well obviously I have so many questions about Euphoria, which was so huge in its second season. And you are incredible in it. I mean the first season did really, really well. It was an enormous success. And then the second season just has built upon that. And for viewers who watch, they know that Lexi's second season, it's kind of where your storyline and your arc really jumps out. Um, I was curious, can you talk to me a little bit about when Sam let you know that season two was really going to be, you know, Lexi's time to shine? 

Maude Apatow: So I met Sam, uh, we made a movie together called _Assassination Nation_ when I was a freshman in college. I first met him on zoom in my dorm room and we really hit it off. And I thought the meeting went terribly, but I guess it went well. So I flew to audition for him in person. And we did that movie together and I just, I think Sam is so smart. And he's always been so supportive of me and it really means a lot. Like I was so nervous in this meeting and, and auditioned too, but he really pushed me out of my comfort zone. That _Assassination Nation_ audition lasted like 35 minutes, which is insanely long for an audition. He just let me go and go and improv it until we got it right. And yeah, he's just always, I don't know. He's always been very supportive of me and I feel like he knows what I'm capable of and so sort of pushes me more than anyone I've worked with before. So then we did that movie together and I heard he was working on _Euphoria_, but I didn't really know any details about it. And then I auditioned, whatever. I got the part and he told me straight up right away, like season one is not where your arc is. It's going to be season two. So I knew that going into it.

Yohana Desta: I love that he, he was just upfront with you and he had that plan for your character all along, which has gotta be kind of exciting. Like that's a guarantee that you're definitely going to be in season two 

Maude Apatow: Yeah that was nice. 

Yohana Desta: Yeah. 

Maude Apatow: Unless I really screwed up season one. 

Yohana Desta: He's like scratch that. I don't know about Lexi anymore. But just like diving back into the Lexi of it all, the season two of it all, her arc is really tremendous and it kind of starts with, you know, this, her and Fezco, will they, won't they. And it's really surprising, but really heartwarming. And I've read that it was something that you suggested to Sam because you and Angus are friends in real life. But tell me all about, you know, suggesting that to him and how that storyline came into play. 

Maude Apatow: Yeah. I mean, I just called Sam one day and we ended up talking on the phone for like three hours about different things that could happen in the season two arc, but we kind of like played around and named a bunch of different characters and then when we started talking about Angus, it was clear that was, that was, that was the one. And then we were just cracking up talking about how different conversations they could have. I don't know, and we just thought the idea was so funny. 

Yohana Desta: It's so, it's so good. It's one of those things.... 

Maude Apatow: And sweet kind of. 

Yohana Desta: Extremely sweet. It's just one of those things, like when it started happening in the episode, I was watching it like, huh? And then I was immediately into it, like two thumbs up, yes. I'm so glad these two are talking and I'm so glad that it was carried over the course of the season. But so, so you and Angus are friends in real life. Talk to me a bit about how like your friendship began and how it inspired that storyline.

Maude Apatow: I mean, we're all very close friends in the cast. I think we got so lucky that we're all, I don't know, we're all the same age and going through a very similar experience together. And we're so lucky that we all love and support each other as much as we do, because it all can be very overwhelming sometimes. And so we just all got really close. I mean, we have a lot of time, you know, downtime in our trailers and we'll all sit around and talk. And so that's kind of how Angus and I became friends. Because we didn't have a lot of scenes together last season, but we, or season one, but we, we always were just hanging out outside. Like when we were shooting the carnival scenes, I remember we just pulled a bunch of all-nighters on set and we're just sitting together and cracking up and like going on the rides and so we just became friends really quickly. All of us. 

Yohana Desta: Um, I mean, you said the word overwhelming, which I kind of want to circle back to, because I imagine in so many senses it's like the material of the show is a lot, you know, the fact that it's so huge is a lot. Like the work that you have to do as an actor is a lot. Talk to me a bit about, you know, what is overwhelming about the world of _Euphoria_. 

Maude Apatow: Yeah. I mean, season one we didn't really know if anyone was going to watch the show. We just kind of hoped it was going to turn out well and we didn't get to see much of it as we were shooting. So none of us had any idea what to expect. And then obviously when the show came out and so many people watched it, I guess like, yeah, there is some pressure coming back for a second season. And, you know, people have high expectations of what should be and it's a lot of pressure sometimes. But I mean, the shots are so beautiful, but they're so beautiful because we have these cranes and crazy dolly tracks. Like hundreds of feet of dolly tracks, and the shots are very complicated and take a while to set up. And so we ended up shooting for eight and a half months, which is a pretty long shoot for eight episodes. So, I think the amount of time sometimes you're, I don't know when you're doing anything for that long, you're sort of... you're in the thick of it. And it feels like that's the only thing in the world and you want to do a good job so badly. And so, but overwhelming, like it's never a super negative overwhelm. It's always positive. Like we're just running around and it just feels like fast paced. And we've got to go, but it's eight months of that, so after a while we were like, 'oh shoot, we're tired, but we're going to keep going.' 

Yohana Desta: Yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot. But I mean, the end result is really incredible. I mean, you're talking about some of these shots it's like unbelievable looking. 

Maude Apatow: Oh, always. And it's so- like sometimes, rarely I'll be sitting there, like, does is really need to have this crane, like this really necessary? And then I see it. I'm like, oh yeah, a hundred percent. This is the most gorgeous thing I've ever seen in my life. It's all worth it in the end. 

Yohana Desta: Yeah. What is, what's one of the more, like, technically difficult scenes that you've had to do where it was the most, like gotta hit your mark because the cranes coming here and dolly here, like... 

Maude Apatow: There were a lot. So during the place scenes, there were like a couple just oners backstage. So I'd run down the stairs and circle around and you just had to hit every single mark or the, the scene was destroyed. So we, we ended up having to do it a bunch of times, but yeah, it's tricky. It's that one scene, uh, backstage at the end, I put a wig on and say, I love the theater, but I remember we did the scene like so many times. But we got it at the end and it was so worth it. So yeah, you know how it is. 

Yohana Desta: I love that scene. I knew exactly what scene you were talking about. And I have so many questions about like the big theater finale that I want to circle back to because it's just, many many, many questions. Um, before I ask about the theater, um, of it all like the, the two episodes over the end, I loved there's that meta moment in the third episode when we're kind of getting into Lexi's story a bit more and she starts talking about herself as the observer. And we see Lexi observing everything as like the movie of her life and all her friends are actors. Her parents are actors, and there's this really fun meta quality to it because you're also an actor and you're on a set and there's just so many layers to it. And I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about that scene in particular and how you connected to it or related to it?

Maude Apatow: Yeah, definitely. Um, well in that scene, when I walk off stage, a ton of the crew members are in it. So the first woman that I meet when I'm walking out is Sam's assistant Marlise. And then our actual AD Sally was who I was talking to in all those scenes and I sat next to our, um, script supervisor, Gerkey. So we all had a lot of fun that day cause we all got to act in it. It was really, it was really special, but yeah, I think, I mean, I think that was a really important, I mean, it sort of introduces us to the whole play in the end. Um, I'm glad they sort of explained it cause I always felt like that's how Lexi felt watching everyone else, like she always was watching and never really spoke up for herself. And so, I don't know, it's, it's like sort of a quietness, but there is so much going on in her head. And I think that's sort of the first time that we see that. That she's not just sitting there quietly like she's, she's thinking about it all so much, but it sort of manifests in this quiet way. Like her exterior is so different than what's going on inside. But I thought the sequence turned out really cool. That's another one of those big oners that I was talking about. 

Yohana Desta: Yeah. Yeah, totally. It's very complicated to watch and think about like how it's just going the entire time. Well, now I want to ask about Lexi's play, which is really, really extraordinary. And I read, and you've talked about the fact that it was inspired by you in high school. For those who don't know can you talk a little bit about like the play that inspired this scene? 

Maude Apatow: Yes. So in high school, I mean, I did theater all through high school and middle school and my whole life. And so when I was a senior in high school, we had a production that we, as a senior class, wrote and directed and produced, and I was the producer. So I was kind of in charge with two other girls. And for some reason, I think it was just a mix of how scared I was about graduating and leaving home and to sing goodbye to all my friends that I channeled all of that energy into making the show perfect. But it was just crazy. Like I don't know what happened, but I took it so, so seriously. And I think it was for the best because apparently it was the best show in years and still is. But I, uh, no, I definitely channeled all of that weird energy into the show and became sort of this tyrant. And I talked to Sam about that when we were kicking around the ideas for the play and that sort of makes sense because I, I think, I mean, Lexi and I are very similar in that way. I think I'm pretty shy too, and, but I really care. And so when I'm stressed, I think that's sometimes manifests in strange ways, but then it's the same thing as Lexi. Like she just wants everything to work out perfectly and everything in her life is falling apart around her. Like into way more of an extreme than mine was. Like you... like Rue and her sister and it's just, what do you do with all of that? And she just puts it into the show and it manifests as this sort of aggression, but also I think it's like a healthy way of processing all of that. 

Yohana Desta: I mean, it turns out to be like a weirdly cathartic night for a lot of people in the show. What was your favorite part about the play that Lexi puts on?

Maude Apatow: So Austin Abrams, who plays Ethan in the show, and I worked a lot together. And he's, he's an amazing actor. And he did all the, like he played Suz, and the photographer and each part that he played he put a hundred percent into it and was so funny and it was so amazing getting to work with him. I, I really think he's so, so talented. And we just had a lot of fun because both of us grew up doing theater and hadn't done it in years. And so we were blocking all these scenes, like we were doing a play and then we'd get on stage and perform to a real audience of like 250 people. So we were just having the best time ever and cracking up. And like, I'm trying to think of my favorite part. I mean the dance number, obviously I'm not in that part. 

Yohana Desta: It's so good. 

Maude Apatow: That's Austin. He's just such a bad-ass and he worked so hard and it all paid off and looked amazing. He's just great. So we had a lot of fun together and obviously all of the girls. But we had the best time, it was a blast. 

Yohana Desta: Yeah. He's so great. That dance number is unbelievable. But I will say what really makes it sing is all the reaction shots of Lexi like watching it so intensely mouthing along just to the beats. And like the lyrics and stuff. I loved all those parts, but that is totally in the centerpiece of the show. 

Maude Apatow: We shot like a reaction for 30 minutes. So they did the dance and I have to just react to it. I knew the camera was on me. That was a rough one because- 

Yohana Desta: 30 minutes. The gesture that you are doing can not be shown, but for anyone who's seen it, it's the gesture that Lexi does. 

Maude Apatow: And should not be described.

Yohana Desta: Wow. Yeah, 30 minutes. That's that's a long time, but kudos to you for acting through it. Well, something I'm curious about as well, obviously the show is shot on film like does that add a different layer of pressure or does it feel the same? Talk to me a bit about that. 

Maude Apatow: I kind of thought maybe beforehand that it would, but it didn't at all. I think it felt very similar. Except for the fact that we didn't know what it was going to look like, but we could see on the monitor sort of an idea of it. And yeah, I don't, I mean, you only have, I think it's 10 or 12 minutes per roll, but it sort of makes you want to focus a little bit more and get it done. And yeah, I think if anything it was kind of more helpful, just lit a fire under your ass a little bit. 

Yohana Desta: Right. Cause you know, that that clock is ticking. So, oh yeah, so you're acting for 30 minutes, but with a role change. Maybe two roll changes. Well, I tip my hat to you. Well, something that I was curious about as you were talking about your, your past theater life and playing Lexington theater, are you interested in theater in the future? Are you interested in Broadway and going back into that world? 

Maude Apatow: Yeah. I would love to do that more than anything. I mean, the first play that I did in, I think I was in second grade. I don't know if it was _Charlie and the Chocolate Factory_ or _Chitty, Chitty, Bang_, _Bang_. I don't know which order it was, but I just knew that was what I was meant to do, always. People ask me 'because of your family, did you feel pressure to be in this industry?' and I just knew immediately, like that's where I felt the most happy and free. And I don't know, I just, I love doing theater more than anything. So hopefully one day I get to do that again. Um, I would love to. 

Yohana Desta: If you could select anything. I mean, barring, I don't know if you're superstitious, but you're putting it out to the universe, like what, what are some of your favorite plays or what's something that you would like love to be in? 

Maude Apatow: My senior year of high school I was in _Cabaret_ and I was Sally Bowles in _Cabaret_, and it was the best. I just had the best time doing that and I got to see Emma Stone do it in New York before I did it. And I really look up to her. I think she's so amazing. And I think her career has been so perfect, and so I really look up to her and I saw her and she blew my mind. She was so, so great and it was so powerful. And since then I was like, I want to do that. And then I did get to do it in high school, so maybe one day I'll get to do it again.

Yohana Desta: Oh I love that. Fingers crossed. Well, you mentioned your family very briefly. Who would you say is the biggest _Euphoria_ fan in the Apatow family? 

Maude Apatow: I think my dad. My dad loves it, which is kind of weird. I didn't expect him to like it as much as he does, but he really was moved by it. And my sister obviously loves it and her friends love it, which is really cute. 

Yohana Desta: Yeah. Well, it's gotta be cool to be, cause she's your younger sister, so if you're doing something cool, it's like nice for the younger siblings to enjoy it and like validate it. 

Maude Apatow: I know, I feel cool because her friends are, uh, her friends are intimidating. My sister is, she's younger than me, but she's definitely cooler than me. So all of her friends come around and they're like, "Hey, Maude. Want to tell us secrets?" I'm like, no, I can't. 

Yohana Desta: Gotta zip my lips, but thank you for watching. I love that. Well, that's so that's, that's really fun. I guess, Lexi is also, for a parent, that's like a character that you can watch. Whereas some of the other characters are really gone through some things so much harder for a parent to watch. But yeah, I, I, I love that your dad is the biggest fan of it. 

Maude Apatow: He definitely is. I always think though, if I, I mean, I should've said this earlier, but Lexi comes off like the nice one, but I think she actually is similar to the rest of the girls. Like you see this anger and I don't know, she's definitely got issues too. And I feel like we got to see that this season that she seems like the sweet one, but I'm like, is she even that sweet? 

Yohana Desta: And what she did was... I love the hushed tone for, um, but I mean, what she does with the play is, it's a pretty vicious move. So yeah, that's, that's true. You're just like nodding. 

Maude Apatow: I'm nodding. I'm like, oh, I forgot we're in the podcast format. 

Yohana Desta: But people feel it. They can feel the nod. Well that's actually, on the flip side of that, something I am curious about that I just thought of is, you know, she's writing something that's very meta and autobiographical and then you mentioned your family. Like your father has done stuff that's out of biographical and you've acted in it. So you've, you've experienced playing characters that have this meta layer to them. Are you ever interested in writing something autobiographical or doing something meta? Some other project? 

Maude Apatow: Of course. Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm a writer too. And I think there's definitely a line. So Lexi didn't realize that maybe you don't make it that obvious, but obviously it's, it's so hard not to write from your life and about people, you know, and experiences you've had. So hopefully one day I'll be able to do that in a way that doesn't hurt people too much. 

Yohana Desta: I think, I think you've earned the right to write something autobiographical, but I'm, I'm dying to see it, whatever it is. Would it be like a film? Would it be a series? Do you, do you know yet? Is it too soon to say. 

Maude Apatow: I think it's too soon to say, but I've got something in the works.

Yohana Desta: Oh, my gosh. Okay. Well, I'm dying to know more. Please tell me first. Before you know, your friends and the other people in your life, because I am dying to know. But that's, that's very exciting. That's cool. 

Maude Apatow: Thank you. 

Yohana Desta: Yeah. Oh, actually I did want to ask, because I love the heart to heart scene between you and Zendaya in the final episode. Talk to me a bit about prepping that and doing that scene with her, because it's really, really special with the both of you do. 

Maude Apatow: Yeah. That last scene with Zendaya, I mean, we didn't get the last script. It was sort of like, that was the very top secret script, I think, because at that point they didn't know who was going to die, what we were talking about earlier. And I don't know, it was very secretive. And so I got that scene pretty close to when we shot it, but I definitely realized that... I don't know from season one, like it, the entire arc made sense. That scene it's this friendship that's falling apart, coming back together. And it was so well-written by Sam. I remember doing it the first time with Zendaya and it just like instantly felt like we both understood it so much. And you know, we've been shooting for years and we've had all these really tough scenes together and it was so nice to have this heart to heart and have a sweet scene together. And at this point too, like Zendaya and I know, are really close and we just, because it was so well-written it just sort of happens really well. It was like the dream scene. I don't know. I think Sam did such a good job and we just got it right away, but it felt really good. 

Yohana Desta: That all comes through. 

Maude Apatow: No, it's just, I mean, I feel like it's a dream for an actor to have a scene that's written that way. And obviously a partner like Zendaya, who's such an amazing actress. It just sort of was really special. That was, that was my favorite scene to shoot the whole season.

Katey Rich: Okay. So now Rebecca, we're going to hear your conversation with Andrew Garfield. He has been so incredibly busy. We were talking about him all through Oscar season for his role in _Tick,_ _Tick, Boom_ and now he's right back at it on _Under the Banner of Heaven_. And as soon as you were done doing this interview, you basically said to me like, 'oh my God, I love Andrew Garfield so much.'

Rebecca Ford: I really feel like I've gotten to spend a lot of quality time with Andrew Garfield because he's been in award season for like an entire year now so... but it was interesting to, um, you know, do this interview. We did it over zoom because he's, he's actually not working right now. He's like hiding out in Malibu and he seems so much calmer than I sort of started the interview being like, are you okay? He's like 'I'm just relaxed. You haven't seen me relaxed.' So it's kind of nice to see him finally getting a break after this like crazy year and a half he's had. 

Katey Rich: I'm so happy for... I'm genuinely happy for him. Like, not that I, you know, feeling sorry for movie star is a funny thing, but like he must be exhausted.

Rebecca Ford: Yeah, I think he is, but he really seemed to love this role and this project. So he was excited to talk about it, even though he seemed totally burned out. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. We've talked about _Under the Banner of Heaven_ on this show before and how really intense it is and his role as this Mormon detective investigating this really horrifying murder and the personal revelations it brings about for him. So I assume you guys got into some detail about that in the interview? 

Rebecca Ford: Yeah. He talked a lot about how he felt a responsibility to learn as much as he could about the Mormon community and, and sort of understanding why someone, particularly a white man would be, uh, which he pointed out I did not, but would be attracted to this community in the and sort of the support, uh, you get within it. So I think he felt a lot of responsibility to represent the community right. And especially, um, talk to ex-Mormons about, you know, how they sort of, uh, lost their faith in it, because that's sort of what the detective goes through as he investigates this case. 

Katey Rich: And that's a group of people that includes the shows writer, Dustin Lance Black, which I assume is a major resource for him.

Rebecca Ford: Yeah. It sounds like, um, Dustin Lance Black connected him to a lot of his friends who had sort of gone through similar experiences. 

Katey Rich: Uh, well, let's listen to your conversation with _Under the Banner of Heaven's_ Andrew Garfield.

Rebecca Ford: Um, how are you doing? 

Andrew Garfield: Well, what kind of answer would you like? Would you, would you like a- 

Rebecca Ford: No, you seem a little, are you tired? What's going on? 

Andrew Garfield: Oh, wow. Thanks a lot. I'm very, very relaxed. 

Rebecca Ford: Oh, that's good. 

Andrew Garfield: Maybe you're just not used to seeing a relaxed person. No, I I'm just very relaxed. I think we, yeah, we lost each other in the middle of all the, the pressy campaigning stuff, which just takes on a different... I don't know, the energy is just very different. And then here... yeah. I don't know, it's nice. I've I've just been in life, so you'll just kind of catching me midlife. 

Rebecca Ford: Well, I hope you're enjoying life. Uh, but I did want to talk about _Under the Banner of Heaven_, because I think your performance is so wonderful in the show. I just found so engrossing. So maybe we can start with, how did this project first come into your orbit and, and what was sort of your first impression of it? 

Andrew Garfield: So, yeah, so I read Krakauer's book when it first came out and I found it just very, very interesting how he so elegantly and fascinatingly connected the founding of a kind of newish religion of Mormonism, the inception of this new religion with, um, this terribly gruesome, ego-driven murder that occurred in the Mormon community in the '80s. The, the writing is just kind of so marvelous and his way of connecting the, these unseen threads, these previously unseen threads, was just astounding to me. And so of course, like everyone else who makes movies and theater and TV, I thought, well, who's going to get the rights and who's going to try to adapt this impossible book. And I was excited to see that Imagine had the rights and the Dustin Lance Black was looking to, to do it. Him being an ex-Mormon himself and having such a personal connection to the material. And then I just didn't think about it for awhile until, um, Lance called me and said, I think I've cracked it. This book and I would love you to, um, I've created a fictional character that has been the, kind of the, the breakthrough for me in terms of making the story thrilling and narratively, I dunno, exciting and also emotional. To give a kind of emotional focal point, a kind of solid center in the middle of this very multi-dimensional, multi- narrative story. And I would love you to have a read and I just found, you know, his writing, so riveting and so honoring of Krakauer's book, but also honoring of his own personal experiences in this faith. And I don't know, it, it made it, he made a great TV show out of it. And I thought, well, like, oh gosh, this is a heavy, this is a heavy duty material and a heavy duty subject. And we'll be in Calgary for six months, but I couldn't say no. It was one of those annoying projects where I, I kind of said, well, this is a subject matter that interests me so much. And I think it has so much potential healing and enlightenment for an audience in terms of, uh, religion, in terms of spirituality, in terms of, or lack thereof with, you know, spiritual, you know, uh, kind of, uh, our worst impulses masquerading as, um, somehow being godly. And, you know, it's a, it's a show and story about being susceptible to extremism and fundamentalism. And obviously we're in a moment right now where we're all incredibly susceptible to our own echo chambers and to a kind of a narrow view, kind of shallow view of the world and of ourselves and of what life is about. Uh, kind of, um, weirdly materialistic view of the world. And I think in times of such uncertainty and collapse, it is tempting for us to kind of fall prey to simple answers. Which is obviously a big part of what this show is about. And so it, it all just was ringing the right bells for the time we're in, and, and what I wanted to express as a, as an actor and the people I wanted to work with, it was just a very, very... it was a no brainer as it were. 

Rebecca Ford: And so your character, who's the detective that's sort of investigating this case, which is a real case, but your character is obviously fictionalized, as you mentioned. How much did you feel like you needed to learn about Mormon, religion and this community? And did you find anything that really surprised you as you were preparing? 

Andrew Garfield: Yeah, I mean, I had to, I had to feel like I was Mormon. That's what that was, what the main part of the job was because then once we were filming the main journey that my character Jeb Pyre goes on is that his foundations get slowly taken apart. And his foundations are based in his church. Are based in the container that he was born into and brought up in, which is the Mormon church. So of course my responsibility to playing the part was to, uh, I don't know, kind of simulate that for myself. Create a cellular body relationship to a set of beliefs and rules and ideas that I was so fully invested in and find where that is in my life. Find where that is in my imagination. And so that I could show up on a day-to-day basis and allow my foundations to get rocked and cracked in a way that was subtle and internal and truthful. So I got to study what it was to be a Mormon and I got to try to fall in love with that religion. And there was a lot to fall in love with like with any organized religion. There's, there's such this such beauty. And in Mormonism, what I found quite beautiful was, and I think you could, you probably would find this in most religions is a true sense of community. You know, a kind of, uh, an access to a wider family that feels inclusive to white people and, um, uh, and, uh, supportive to white people, and men particularly. And, uh, all of the, the things that I am and, um, you know, uh, empowering to white men and, um, uh, you know, so I think if I could, I had to figure out a way of, but, but, but, but Jeb is a modern Mormon in this. And this is another thing that I found really kind of beautiful and interesting and a lot of the Mormons that I, that I met while I was doing my research around the subject, I visited Salt Lake City in Utah, and I spoke to a lot of Dustin Lance Black's friends and lots of incredible people. Ex-Mormons, police officer Mormons, cop Mormons who used to be Mormons who had a crisis of faith. You know, I got a whole kind of array of experiences from this community. And I think where Jeb lives is in a very modern state. And he has an equal in his wife. And that, that was thankfully like a part of the character that I, I think it was probably, it would probably be much harder for Sam Worthington and Wyatt Russell and, the rest of the Lafferty brothers. Um, the actors who play the Lafferty's to get into a kind of misogynistic, female subjugating mindset cause they're all just decent guys. But for me, I got to play a more modern version of what it is to be a Mormon. And, um, and someone who's obviously sensitive enough to have an openness to his faith and his belief system being questioned. I think that is a rare quality for someone who's so rooted and enmeshed with their faith to be curious enough, I suppose, imaginative enough and honest enough to be able to face questioning something that is so, um, brutalizing to their own lives. That, so that is so going to be so violent in terms of the upheaval that's going to do to, to his own life. That is a quality that I admire in anyone. Someone who's willing to have their minds changed and have their hearts changed if it means an illusion is lifted and you start to see more reality. And that's what, that's the journey that Jeb Pyre goes on. And I find it... and having spoken to a bunch of people who have been through that very experience, those were the people that I felt like I had to represent the, um, the ex-Mormons or, or ex anything. You know, people who were raised in a certain way who realized that, that this way was fundamentally, um, dangerous. So, so I met a lot of, a lot of people who had been through this experience and it enhanced my sense of responsibility and the kind of it put the flesh on the bone, I suppose, for, for Jeb and from my passion in wanting to honor Jeb and all the people that Jeb represents.

Rebecca Ford: As you say, this character really goes on this journey, and I'm curious if it was challenging to shoot that in a television show. I know most shows sort of shoot out of order and you know, you have to go back and forth in his emotional state. Um, what was that like for you? 

Andrew Garfield: Yeah, it's tricky because it's subtle. You know, it's not, he doesn't have the big speech and the big, you know, there's not... he's a very ordinary dude. You know, and I, and I think that was one of the things that was appealing to me about playing the characters that he, how do I express a lot with not a lot. You know, that, that, that felt very interesting to me. Having, of course, just come from playing a very expressive musical theater writer who is all pure expression all the time, wearing his heart on his sleeve constantly. I felt excited to be challenged by a kind of more internal process and trusting that things would be expressed if I thought and felt them without having to show them and without, um, having to, you know, Jonathan Larson kind of, you know, thrust it down everyone's throats all the time. Um, so it was really interesting to jump back and forth because it's so incremental, you know? And, and that's the, obviously the beauty of long form storytelling, which I haven't ever done. I've never done a mini series in this way and been able to plot and kind of deliver, uh, an experiential journey, a slow burn for a character in that way, over the course of seven hour long episodes, it was incredibly privileged that I got to do that. But yeah, it was, it was tricky because it was so it's just, it's mostly just little, little pieces of dust crumbling from his foundations every moment. 

Rebecca Ford: How much time did you have after _tick, tick... BOOM!_ before this started up? 

Andrew Garfield: I finished _tick, tick... BOOM!_ end of 2020 I want to say? Where are we, 2022? Yeah, end of 2020. And then I went in the beginning of 2021 and visited a friend in Atlanta and had to make a movie there that I'm now allowed to talk about, but I'm still kind of like weirdly like PTSD about like, not talking about a thing that people know I'm now in. Um, so I went and did the _Spider-Man._

Rebecca Ford: Is visiting a friend, just the code word you used for shooting _Spider-Man_ for like two years? 

Andrew Garfield: That was what Lin Manuel Miranda would always reference when he would be like, so what, where are you? What, what are you doing off to this buddy? I'm like, oh, I've got to go and visit a friend in Atlanta. And he was like, uh huh. I was like, no, I'm living literally visiting a friend. And I was visiting a friend, but that wasn't the primary reason. 

Rebecca Ford: Oh, that friend wasn't Tobey Maguire. 

Andrew Garfield: No, but he, you know, but he's a friend that was also happened be there. 

Rebecca Ford: So now that the show has been out, do you pay attention to reactions and reviews when something like this comes out and really becomes a point of conversation?

Andrew Garfield: I, I have, uh, you know, like every creative person that has to deal with that, I have a very complex relationship with it and I always have, and I probably always will. I hope I don't, but I, I think the, my intention always is to first and foremost, I keep my own counsel with how I feel the thing has turned out, a project. And when I say keep my own counsel, I also mean me and a few of my closest kind of creative people. And, um, and I, I try and make that the primary kind of relationship, but then of course it's hard not to look. And, and also with this, I was very curious because it's such a big show and, and, and Dustin Lance Black has created something so sprawling and ambitious and multi narrative, and, and I was incredibly curious and excited to see the other parts of the story that I wasn't involved in. Like the, the Brenda Lafferty strand and the Joseph Smith Brigham Young strand. And I was just excited. So, and then in terms of people's response to it, because obviously, you know, I love the book. A lot of people have a relationship with that book. And then there, of course, there's, uh, know there's the Mormon community, and then there's the ex-Mormon community. And then there's just a general true crime watching TV public. So is that, you know, there's going to be a lot of, we're going to have a smorgasbord of, of responses and that everyone's coming from their own realities. So to me, if I can be objective and, and distance, anything, like take my own personal need for people to like my work out of the equation, then it just becomes interesting to see how people respond to the same piece of art, the same story and how their own experience has shaped that response. So, yeah, I, I ha I have in the short answer is, yeah, I've been curious. So I looked. 

Rebecca Ford: But you're not on social media. You're just- 

Andrew Garfield: Not officially. I I'm a, I'm a creep, I'm a creep. I creep around. I kind of just skulk in the background, just watching other people engage in... in a, in a, in this dangerous wild west of virtual zero consequence reality. I find that interesting too, but yeah, I'm, I'm not strong enough to engage.

Rebecca Ford: You're much better off. I would say than those of us...

Andrew Garfield: I know that's a privilege position as well. You know, I think a lot of people rely on it for work and for life and I fully respect that. I can't. Yeah. I'm lucky that I don't, right now, never say never needs to participate. 

Rebecca Ford: So you were in Oscar season, as I was, you know, and that is quite a circus and a long few months with your films. And now, you know, you've had the show come out and, and now we're in the conversations of Emmy season and, and I'm... not a lot of people have to do those back to back. So I'm curious for you, what's sort of your perspective on that long journey that you have to participate in if your show or film is a part of that conversation?

Andrew Garfield: You know, it's, it's a very, very lovely thing to make things that people like. And it's something that I just feel incredibly lucky that when I'm invited to those parties, that I'm, and if I'm proud of the work, and if I feel like the work represents me and my longings here to, I want to express while I'm alive. Like _tick, tick...BOOM!_ does, like_ Under the Banner of Heaven_ does, and you know, even like my small participation in the _Spider-Man_ film does. I look at those, those pieces of work and I go, yeah, I'm, that's that's this is, this is a lot of, uh, sincere expression of what I want to express. Um, and it's never going to be complete and it's never going to be perfect. I'm never going to, it's never going to be the kind of flawless thing that I want it to be, but to have that be received in the way that that you're talking about is, is quite humbling really. And I, I don't take it for granted and I, I appreciate it deeply, because I don't know. It's encouraging, it's encouragement and, and it's, it's acceptance from our community. It's acceptance from our peers. It's also a responsibility I think. I think when, I think about this a lot, and I've been thinking about it since, cause I've had some time off and it's been great to just be able to reflect on this very question in this whole period of time is, well, what are you going to do with it? You know, what are you going to do with the attention that you're given? And that's a very liberating question for me, because I want to make it about something bigger. I always want to take that, whatever that attention or whatever that energy is and ... it towards something that is bigger than myself and something that is about what we're all doing here. Like illuminating what we're all doing here on this, on this floating rock in the cosmos. I think that if we can keep our attention trained on that kind of meta perspective, then I think we're, we will be in better shape and in good shape. And I think as storytellers and as artists, that's what our job is, is to throw up a frame and, and direct attention or give opportunity for our attention to be directed towards spiritual matters, matters of life and death. Matters of meaning and meaninglessness methods of love and relationship and existential questions. So I, that for me is my ultimate desire. And I think being a part of these conversations in terms of what you, the question you're asking only, only helps bring more attention to S to, to, to stuff which may be more important.

Rebecca Ford: And you mentioned having some time off, and I know there was a story about how you plan to just take a little time after being so busy for the last couple of years. And I'm curious, how does that time let you sort of decide what's next? Do you have an idea about where you go from here? 

Andrew Garfield: I think that's the beauty of it is... and what we forget I think maybe what I forget, I'll speak for myself is, I don't know. I think we're all somewhat addicted to work and there's a kind of non- never enoughness that we feel. A kind of, I don't know, this post industrialist psyche of, well, you're only as value as however many units you produce. This kind of modern times notion that I think is a real missing of the mark in terms of our collective psyche. I have nothing wrong with working hard. Like I love working hard, but I, I think in order to do that in a way that is soulful and effective, we, we have to be coming from a full cup. I speak to my, me and my brother speak about this all the time cause we have the same, dis-ease in the sense that we both are just, just so identified with our work. And he's a doctor, and he's the kind of doctor you want and looking after you, because he will stay for three hours longer than he's supposed to. But then we, we both talk about this and we were like, well, how do we, how do we come from an authentic place? How do we come from a place of abundance rather than a place of scarcity so that we can be actually incredibly effective at what we do and it's not just a kind of series of burnouts because that's no way to live a life. I think there's a whole other kind of more receptive aspect of living that I need to be able to do in order to come back and create, you know? And so, so, so right now I think it's a real allot, a challenging, allowing of wanting myself to, to not know. And that's feels like a very vulnerable place to be, because I think we're taught that we always have to have some kind of knowing about where we're supposed to be walking and how we're supposed to be living. But then once I think you fall into the not knowing and you allow yourself to be in the not knowing, that's when deeper images come. That's when deeper ideas come and something more sincere might emerge. I've been reading, um, Theroux and, and Walden pond, you know, you know, just kind of like his, his year just sitting in that one and walking that one patch of land. You know, and I've been reading John O'Donohue and some David White and you know, these kind of nature philosophers, kind of spiritualists. And that's been kind of enhancing my, my rest time and kind of reminding me that there's no, there's no where to be like that, that, that we all belong. We all belong here, whether or not we're making good TV. You know what I mean? Like we're all worthy of the air we breathe. We're all we all belong on this planet. We all belong to each other and belong to ourselves and we don't have to be constantly proving our worth. And I think maybe in our twenties, that is a kind of an energy and a kind of archetypal initiatory phase of, we have to plot off, we feel a need to plant our flag and to let the world know that we are here and this is what we're about. And, um, to like, say our name loud and say, this is who we are. And maybe, I dunno, maybe as the metabolism slows down and you know, I definitely feel it in my thirties where I'm like, oh, no, I, I, and also... you know, with the experience, when, when you start to experience more loss and, and realizing that this is all finite, I think it can do one of two things. It can either like create a kind of stress induced, panic, and rush a-la Jonathan Larson, or it can make everything, it can make you slow down and create more presence. And I oscillate between those two things. Like I can get into both of those kinds of states, of being where I'm like, I've got to get it all done quicker and quicker and more and bigger, and it's never enough. And, but then if I, if I, yeah, this period of time has been a really wonderful kind of slowing down. And I kind of, um, a reconnection with the ordinary and the kind of simple rhythm of just being here. 

Katey Rich: That does it for today's interview episode, we'll be back on Thursday with a regular round table conversation. In the meantime, find us at vanityfair.com where you can find more coverage of _Euphoria_ and _Under the Banner of Heaven._ You can follow us on Twitter @littlegoldmen and on our own. I am @kateyrich. Rebecca? 

Rebecca Ford: @beccamford. 

Katey Rich: And Yohana? 

Yohana Desta: @yohanadesta. 

Katey Rich: Also, please sign up to text with us at join subtext.com/littlegoldmen or text 213-513-7180. Our editor and producer, as always, is Brett Fuchs.