Intro: "Let's get right to the issue at hand, oxycontin is becoming the largest cause of overdose in the country." "Make your doctors feel special. Whatever it takes to win their trust." "These are your new magic words." "Less than 1%," "less than 1%," "less than 1% of people get addicted to Oxycontin." "That's not possible." "Pharma's been marketing the drug, as not addictive when it clearly is." "You're gonna need more evidence that you can find this entire building. Go find me something big." "I have never worked for a pharma company where the FDA did almost everything they wanted." "Crime is on the rise across the country." "People's lives are at stake and a pharma company is lying about their medicine." "I don't understand what's happening to me." "These are good, hardworking people." "Can't believe how many of them are dead now." "Don't worry, it's an excellent drug."

Tara Ariano: Hello and welcome to a special episode of _Little Gold Men_ brought to you by _Vanity Fair_ in partnership with Hulu. I'm Tara Ariano. 

Latoya Ferguson: And I'm Latoya Ferguson. We're going to be discussing all eight episodes of the limited series, _Dopesick,_ and how creator Danny Strong and his team created a compelling narrative out of the non-fiction book by Beth Macy and juggled so many story threads in the process. 

Tara Ariano: And after our discussion, you'll also hear my interview with Danny Strong about how he made this all happen. _Dopesick_, which premiered on Hulu on October 2021 is a decade spanning examination of America's opioid epidemic through several different groups of people. The Sackler family who owned Purdue Pharmaceuticals, the makers of Oxycontin. Purdue reps, who aggressively sold the drug to doctors, a small town, Virginia doctor, and the patients to whom he ends up prescribing the drug, and law enforcement, Virginia prosecutors from the US attorney's office, and a high ranking agent in the DEA. And as we said up top, it was partially inspired by the bestselling nonfiction book, _Dopesick_ by Beth Macy, who was formerly a journalist at the _Roanoke Times,_ is also a producer on the project. Um, and appears in one episode very briefly. Cameo, not as herself. It was developed in mostly written by Danny Strong, a veteran of fact-based material, like the HBO movies, _Recount_ and _Game Change_. And as we said, we'll talk to him later on. Latoya, let's start with something Strong said in another interview. He was inspired by _Traffic_. Uh, was that an analog that you had in mind as you watched it? 

Latoya Ferguson: Yeah, definitely like a contemporary _Traffic_. And it was interesting cause I know that Danny strong also talked about why he decided to make this a limited series instead of doing a movie like _Traffic_. It was brought up to him as a movie, and I recall watching it even still being like, did they even promote this as, you know, how every other show promotes them at an eight hour movie or so, because I'm watching this and I'm like, this is 100% a TV show. I think you would lose a lot of the emotion and kind of just the hard hitting nature of it if it was a condensed movie. 

Tara Ariano: Yeah, and the crazy thing about the _Traffic_ analogy is that _Traffic_ was, it was a TV show first before it was Steven Soderbergh's movie and was later remade again into a USA miniseries. So even that I think was maybe ahead of the curve of like, not everything has to be a movie, some things need to be bigger. You need the space to tell the story in its fullness. 

Latoya Ferguson: But with that in mind, maybe we'll see a _Dopesick_ movie now after this. 

Tara Ariano: Right, that's true. So the show jumps around in its timeline a lot. Did this feel to you like an effective way to tell the story? 

Latoya Ferguson: I think it did. I think, uh, it could be hard to watch if you weren't paying attention and I think luckily it was very captivating. The show was an hour long and I both felt the length of that every time, but I'm like strangely I wanted to stay in this world. And I'll explain more of that later cause that seems strange to say considering how heartbreaking it can be, but, but I think there was some times where if you really weren't paying attention, you could, you could lose it. But I think that's also a testament to using it in the TV genre. Um, there's a way to cross those paths that I'm not going to, I'm not going to throw movies under the bus, obviously, but I think that specifically the way that Danny Strong shows us all the story from it being TV to the different years and the back and forth, I think it was very specifically something you had to do this way, to tell the story this way.

Tara Ariano: Yeah. I felt like, um, sometimes it was even showing off a little bit in a way I admired where it's like, there's, there's a scene where Bridget, the Rosario Dawson character, is the DEA agent is talking to the prosecutors about her divorce. And then the very next scene is her setting up her date with her future husband, who she's in the process of getting divorced from when we initially meet her. It's like, this is what, this is what TV can do that it's harder to do in a movie is just really compress the timeline and, and, and sorta cuisinart all of these storylines in interesting ways. 

Latoya Ferguson: One thing I appreciate about Danny Strong as a writer and creator is that he clearly appreciates and understands television. So again, while I'm watching this, I'm not thinking, 'wow, it's like an eight hour long movie.' I'm thinking this is a well-crafted television show and everyone is acting accordingly. They know where they are making television. 

Tara Ariano: Yeah, so I feel like this project would not work without its strong sense of place in a post in NPR Beth Macy's quoted explaining how important that was to her and that Strong had hired a Kentucky graphic novelist named Robert Gipe, not sure I'm pronouncing that right, G I P E, to consult on that aspect of the series. And we can drill down more on this when we talk about the Kaitlyn Dever and Michael Keaton characters, but there's one moment in particular toward the end. Logan Parker, who's played by William Flaman, is in a doctor's waiting room that's decorated with these framed black and white photos from various points in the history of mining in the area. And he talks about them a little with a younger person in the room and the pride that he had of being in that workforce. And it's a very short scene, but it was so well observed and understated. I found it really moving, particularly since so much of the rest of the story is about shame. Were there any moments that struck you that way? 

Latoya Ferguson: Well, in terms of the show being about shame, one thing I also really appreciated about it, I think it's a show that's not misery porn and that's something that it easily could have been. So, so easily. That's why I also say that I could, I feel like living within this world and continuing to watch it, you know, which is not what you expect with a show about the opioid crisis. But then there's the fact that they got Robert Gipe to consult on the Kentucky aspects of the show. It really feels, I acutely feel the rural Virginia aspects of the show. Those feel so honest and true. And just early on when nurse Leah is helping, uh, Dr. Finnix attend to this man who is just, you know, going about his day and he has his rebel flag tattoo just shown proud. And you just, you see that moment and she's like, this is what she has to deal with every day. They care about these people. They care about these patients, even though they obviously don't all agree with each other and their worldviews. It's just, these are the people you're seeing in this town. And it's not even that, you know, there is ill content or anything coming that way, it's just a fact this life, and it felt so real, not even like the show was like, look at this, look at what these people are like. I think that's another thing, while shame is a part of the show, they are, the show is intentionally never shaming these, uh, small towns people. Especially as they become victims, it doesn't, it never looks down on them. 

Tara Ariano: Yes, absolutely. I agree with that a hundred percent. There's another, another moment like that, where we see Rick and Randy out decompressing after a tough conversation with a witness and it's been established earlier that neither of them drinks. So they're out at like 8:30 at night having ice cream sundaes together, which is so wholesome, but it's like such a specific detail. You just, you really get you, you know, those characters in that moment with something just as, as light and silly as that.

Latoya Ferguson: In general it's those moments are just as important as the moment showing just how debilitating this opioid addiction is. And again, not only is this show not misery porn, there's, it's not about shock value either. It's, it's being honest, it's shining a light, but it doesn't seem exploitative. 

Tara Ariano: Yeah, a hundred percent. So let's talk about the different storylines starting with the Sacklers. And I think it's one thing to say money doesn't make rich people happy often, but even before things start collapsing on them, they seem miserable. They all seem to hate themselves and each other. And Richard Sackler, who's played by Michael Stuhlbarg, appears to be the closest to his father, but even when his dad comes by the house one evening, instead of hello, Richard says something about him showing up to ruin his night. Which he does, but it's like, what are you people all getting out of these relationships cause it seems like you should break up. 

Latoya Ferguson: It's interesting because especially the beginning watching the Sacklers things, I'm like, wow, this is like dumb _Succession_. And I mean that in the best way possible, but at the same time, the characters in _Succession_ are also a bunch of dummies, but they're so wealthy behind, beyond what we can even imagine. And that's exactly what the Sacklers are too. Stuhlbarg's performance, it is... disconcerting, doesn't even begin to describe this. He, I don't know how a person can be what he is and at the same time, I believe as is how a person was. 

Tara Ariano: Yeah. 

Latoya Ferguson: It's interesting to hear him keep saying, 'we're going to cure the world of its pain' and in a way you're like, does he mean this? Because he's, he seems, it's not that anything seems like it's coming from a good place with him. At the same time it's like in his mind, does he actually believe that that's what he's doing? 

Tara Ariano: And is that possible? Is that a reasonable, is that a reasonable goal? Because Dr. Finnix, especially at the end, seems like he does not think so.

Latoya Ferguson: Yeah. It never seems like he's coming from a place of altruism at all, but trying to understand the way this man's mind works, I feel like Stuhlbarg might be the only person who understands how this man's mind worked from, you know, trying to perform as him. 

Tara Ariano: Yeah, it's especially weird revisiting it this week when he's also on _The Staircase_ currently, as we're recording this playing David Rudolf, uh, the defense attorney for my Michael Peterson in a very different role. 

Latoya Ferguson: Stuhlbarg's always just going to show up somewhere. He's always there. 

Tara Ariano: It's true. Uh, yeah. In terms of how weird Richard is, apparently according to my research, him showing no sign of any positive human emotion except when he's loving his gigantic dog was a real detail corroborated by people who interacted with him based on what we see his wife, who has since divorced him in real life might have been jealous of the affection that he shows this animal.

Latoya Ferguson: Which is understandable, dogs are the best. I was like in those things, I'm like, I relate to you now. 

Tara Ariano: Yeah, especially that dog. That was a big boy. He was like a bear size dog. That had was bigger than Richard's head. Uh, I appreciate that the first we see of them too is, is when they're getting served dinner in their own museum wing cause the show circles back around to the question of plutocrats using philanthropy to launder their reputations, which is a conversation which should be having more. Like if these Jags would pay their taxes, we would not need these endowments that they are granting.

Latoya Ferguson: It is amazing especially to watch the Richard Sackler scenes because to watch someone who seems to have, the way he is shown, seems to have no real skills delegating and being in charge of so many lives and eventually misfortunes and just wanting to continue to go full steam ahead. It's like, oh, none of this matters to you. This all just rolls off your back and unfortunately we know how this ends, so it all continues to just roll off his back. It's the juxtaposition between the exorbitant amount of wealth that these people have and everyone else just down in the dirt throughout it's, again, it's impressive, but it's also just, it's so disturbing because it's still happening. There was no real saving the day in general with this show. It does kind of grind my gears to say.

Tara Ariano: I think that's a fair opinion to hold. The other thing is that the donations are pretty much the only time we see the Sacklers, like balling out with the billions that they've made killing all these people. Like we hear one of the younger cousins wants to invest in a ski resort company, but Richard will not even take a ski vacation because he needs to work and make even more money.

Latoya Ferguson: It just seems so boring. To be so rich and so boring. It's like, if you have money, be fun, please. I beg of you. Not too much fun because that could go bad too.

Tara Ariano: Let's move on because some of the work that Richard does is make psych up phone calls to the relatively low level reps who are flogging Oxycontin to doctors and our POV character in this storyline is Billy, played by Will Poulter. I'm generally opposed to British people playing Americans, but other than his, his extremely English looking face, I was convinced. What did you think of his performance?

Latoya Ferguson: I thought he was great. And, uh, I thought it was accent was really good too. And I was hoping he would say psychopath because that's usually the tell for British actors. Like Pattinson in, in the _Batman_, he said, psychopath. I'm like, you're, you're not American. The other, tell us anything. And he says anything pretty early and he does it well, so very good job.

Tara Ariano: Well observed. 

Latoya Ferguson: Two thumbs up on the accent, Poulter. 

Tara Ariano: So way more than the Sacklers we see Billy and Amelia, who's played by Phillipa Soo, outwardly displaying signs of their financial status. Her suits and shoes and car, his nice apartment. But as he starts to lose faith in the mission, she tells a bit of her backstory, which is that she grew up poor and is determined not to go back. Should we have gotten more of her in the storyline? Or how did you feel about her character? 

Latoya Ferguson: I, I really kind of wished we could have gotten more of, I do think the show was like at the eight episodes and the length that is it's, it's pretty stuffed well too. I do think partially that is intentional that she such a detached character and she keeps, uh, Billy at arms length and the show is also keeping her at arms length with us. I would love to know more. I think in general, that her story with Billy is one of those stories that it could be its own thing honestly. A show about Billy and Amelia, or any kind of show in general, like said in the world of pharma sales reps, that's uh, fascinating and it's obviously seedy world, which I'm surprised that there hasn't been a show about that. You have shows where characters are pharma reps, and you could into that, but like a full tilt show on that would be very interesting. And I think it proved it with, as they're just cogs in the machine of the story, but their story is just as fascinating because of the lies they are pushing. The lies they're telling themselves to continue to push the these lies. Going into this show, especially, I didn't think that I would feel for, uh, for Billy, for Poulter's character. I'm like, why would I, why would I care about the smarmy guy who was pushing these pills, but it is a testament to the writing and the acting that you feel for that kid. Yeah. I'm going to call him a kid. Uh, cause I'm at that age where I call everyone, a kid. 

Tara Ariano: He's younger than us, that's fine. 

Latoya Ferguson: Yeah. You don't want to feel for him. Even though early on when he's asking questions, it's like, you know, maybe this isn't the right line of work for you cause you're asking questions. And they're good questions, questions to ask, but he still pushes through and pushes it along. It takes a bit for him to, you know, not do that. 

Tara Ariano: Yeah, and she has to be the one to say, stop asking those questions because you're going to get yourself fired if you get curious about any of this. I will add before we move on, if that, if people are curious about seeing a show about a pill mill, which is a reference or a term that gets thrown around a lot in this plotline, Early Clause. They cover that very different vibe on Claws, but that's a storyline there as well. 

Latoya Ferguson: It's great. 

Tara Ariano: So central to Billy's arc is his relationship with Samuel Finnix, the Michael Keaton character. And he runs a medical practice in Finch Creek, Virginia, fictional town. And we're told that the reps are going to be given psych profiles on all of their doctors, but it doesn't seem like Sam is that hard to sell. He's a gentle man treating gentle people, not naive, but not assuming that people he meets are hiding nefarious ulterior motives either, which is what makes his arc so heartbreaking. He was like the soul of the show and I was very glad he's already gotten awards buzz for it. 

Latoya Ferguson: Yeah, there's just a moment. Yeah. There's a moment early on. And where you know where this is going, but you just kind of say, oh no. Where he's telling one of his patients to like lay off of like the Advil PM or something like that, and like you, you sweet man, no. And I just somehow did not turn the show off right there. I'm like, Nope, it ends there and nothing bad happens to anyone. Um, Michael Keaton, amazing and brilliant here. I was talking about this with a friend and I'm saying, you know, people will forget, of course, that Michael Keaton got his start in comedy. And I, I, as much as I wished he would, you know, go back and do some comedies too, the work he is putting out, especially the past few years, it's been interesting and it's just... even when he gets his awards, it seems like people forget about Michael Keaton. And then he, he does something amazing again. And you're like, oh yeah, Michael Keaton. 

Tara Ariano: Yeah, he's incredible. And I think too, the show does a good job making a credible, that Sam would be enticed by the weekend seminar with the, the Russell Portenoy connection. This is a pain expert that he's, Sam has read his book and really respects him. And looking into that guy, uh, that's how I learned the real Russell Portenoy still practices, more recently started helping plaintiffs to sue Purdue Pharma, so that they would not sue him for his part in helping guide to spread, uh, opioids around the country. Um, so I, I feel like the, the key scene for the two of them is, um, after Sam has himself become addicted to Oxycontin, ends up in rehab. Billy goes to see him, racked with guilt, and they have a nice brief conversation before Sam asks him if he can get him some pills. And this feels like a turning point for Billy where he's like, oh geez, this is, this is quite bad cause he likes Sam it's clear. 

Latoya Ferguson: Um, he sees Sam as a father figure, as you know. He's, he's talking about his family where he's kind of the black sheep basically. And he, he, he, he fostered a connection with him only to send him down this path. 

Tara Ariano: Well, moving on. Sam is also key in the plot lines of the Finch Creek residents who end up addicted to Oxycontin like Betsy Mallum who's played by Kaitlyn Dever. And we already talked about this shame is a fundamental element of any addiction narrative, and Betsy is already in that mindset even before she suffers the back injury for which Sam prescribes her the Oxycontin, because she's a closeted lesbian who knows her Christian parents would not accept her coming out and when she tries to come out, is proven, right, tragically. 

Latoya Ferguson: Yeah. Uh, the type of parents who will pray for any gay person who they come across in their town. 

Tara Ariano: Yeah. 

Latoya Ferguson: Yeah. Which especially early on, it's one of those things where it's that Southern hospitality that's also just completely fake. The, bless your heart from Mayor Winningham was like one of the first things she says. Bless her heart. And it really is one of the things we were like, we're good people. We, we love everyone because we're Christians. But as soon as, um, it's on their doorstep, that love quickly disappears, unfortunately. Because if the story wasn't tragic enough, it has that aspect as well.

Tara Ariano: Betsy gets a great scene with her pastor in one of her later attempts to get sober and she admits, she's never believed in God and only attended church for her parents, but she may have also been doing it for herself without knowing it. He says, which I, you know, I agree with you, a lot of times Christianity is portrayed and is not in actuality sincere, but this felt like a more thoughtful take on the complexity of faith than you usually see in a project like this. So I appreciated that. There was an, there was an attempt, not just necessarily show both sides, but too meet the character where they, where she is.

Latoya Ferguson: It's interesting the way they portrayed Betsy's parents, because obviously, you know, they were very anti-gay, but it's one of those things where, when Betsy is like about to leave and her mom's like, you know what? I don't care. I'm sorry. I don't care basically. Whereas, you know, her father is like, oh, well, goodbye. It's one of those things where it is possible, you know, when it comes down to it, is your, is your family going to just cast you off or are they going to prove how much they love you? And that moment her mother does try, but we're already going down a path that there's no turning back unfortunately. And you knew with a show like this, there had to be a tragic ending in that kind of way for at least one of the characters and Kaitlyn Dever is so winning. She's always been winning. So of course they use that against all of us and they break our hearts. 

Tara Ariano: Yeah. Apparently Danny Strong has said that that's one of the big notes he got, which was don't don't kill Betsy, let Betsy live. And I feel like the show, as much as we love Betsy, it's a, it's a weaker show if, if we don't have this key character pay the ultimate price for this addiction that has been thrust upon her basically. 

Latoya Ferguson: Because that, that that's the thing. It is a tragedy what's happening to her, to people in real life. It's not based on if you're a good person or a bad person. It's just, unfortunately the, the lack of luck in this situation. If you're able to get out, uh, and at the last minute she just, she couldn't get out of it. 

Tara Ariano: But Sam survives, he starts taking Suboxone to deal with his addiction and seeing him drive his little bus of patients to the clinic that's out of town as he shows what it means to find redemption through service. I mean, that was one of the moments in the show that made me cry. I thought it was really important to give him this moment. 

Latoya Ferguson: And now I'm tearing up with you just reciting it. Uh, because again, that's part of why I say this show isn't just misery porn, it ultimately is hopeful, especially knowing that there is no quote, unquote happy ending. The good guys didn't actually beat the bad guys. It's an issue that's continuing on even with knowledge and things being slightly better, but there has to be some hope. The show was never out to say, and here's the tragic thing, and it's always tragic and it's always bad. That is not what the show's intent was at any point.

Tara Ariano: Right. 

Latoya Ferguson: It showed the reality, but it's not saying that all hope is lost. 

Tara Ariano: Right. And, and it proves, or it makes a strong case for how to help one another out of this is to create strong community with people around you, whatever that may mean and changes from person to person. But we certainly say it was Sam.

Latoya Ferguson: Yeah. 

Tara Ariano: So we also get the law enforcement people. Rick, Peter Sarsgaard, Randy, John Hoogenakker, and both of them are from the us attorney's office. There's also John Brownlee, Jake McDorman, who's their boss and Bridget Meyer, we already mentioned Rosario Dawson from the DEA. Can we talk about the promotional video that Randy and Rick focused on at the start of the investigation, because in a whole series about dystopic modern life, the multiple testimonials, touting Oxycontin for making sure patients never missed work is so dark and I feel like that could have been focused on even more. 

Latoya Ferguson: Yeah. That's the world in which we live. Woo hoo. It's even more pressure now of course, in pandemic life. Anything to not miss work, okay, yay. 

Tara Ariano: Yeah, I kind of love that. After 1 million years of the nagging wife of a cop trope here we get Raúl Esparza as Paul Bridget's husband. Taking his turn playing at opposite Bridget, um, and I appreciated how the show portrayed how she kind of undermined herself with her total lack of diplomacy, as well as once showing what bullshit it is that she turned people off by not being softer, but that this is a real critique women hear at work all the time and it does derail efforts like hers.

Latoya Ferguson: Yeah. Especially when you're dealing, in this case, you know, with very high profile, big wig people, you have to quote unquote act a certain way. But that wouldn't have gotten anything done. People acting a certain way is what got them into this mess really. 

Tara Ariano: Yeah, exactly. She gets a crazy scene. There's a moment where Rudy Giuliani is opening an exhibit at the DEA museum and afterwards seeks her out to find her. And she's really excited to meet him because at this point in history it was okay to respect Rudy Giuliani and she does. Or rather she does until he keeps talking and says he has this great new client and it's Purdue Pharmaceuticals and her face just goes dead. This is just another way that she's being undermined.

Latoya Ferguson: Yep. Everyone's corrupt, girl. 

Tara Ariano: Yeah. Tough way to find it out, but she does. 

Latoya Ferguson: She finally learned.

Tara Ariano: This feels like a good time to throw to my interview with Danny Strong, and let's hear that now.

You've talked about how this project came to be in past interviews. You were pitched an opioid story, but then it turned out that another division of Fox had also optioned Beth Macy's book _Dopesick,_ so the two projects merged, she came on as a producer. How did it change your process to collaborate with someone whose background is in journalism?

Danny Strong: Oh, well, it didn't really change the process at all. It just added to it. So Beth really wanted to be in the writer's room. Uh, she hadn't done that before and I thought, well, having an expert on the subject matter in the writer's room sounds pretty great to me. So she was just part of the team in a very, very significant way. Uh, we continued the interview process and the investigative fact findings. Uh, not just through the writers room process, but through prep and even production. So for me, I'd never had a journalist out finding information and then someone, I, and then I was finding information. We would have him, uh, you know, documents leaked to us and people reaching out. And then we would conduct interviews sometimes together, sometimes apart. So it was really terrific having this, not just an expert on the subject matter, but a terrific reporter and she's the greatest person ever. I just loved her. So it was just wonderful on a number of levels having her a major part of the process.

Tara Ariano: Let's talk about those leaked documents. Were you able to use them and are they now in the public record or are they only in the record because of the show? 

Danny Strong: Uh, absolutely we were able to use them. It was, it was pretty fascinating. So there was one in particular that was from the Justice Department and it was a memo from the fraud unit in the Justice Department that basically said, yes, the case, the Brownlee case should move forward. And then there were details in that memo that had never been reported before. Um, meetings that, that Curtis Wright, the former FDA official that joined Purdue Pharma and it granted them the label, uh, that he had had meetings secretly with Purdue before he had left the FDA. And before the label had even been granted. So I took those documents and I created this really, I, I wouldn't say it's a great scene, but it's a very interesting scene in which we see Curtis Wright of the FDA meeting secretly with Purdue Pharma executives and coming up with the wording of the famous wording on the label together and the lawyers for Hulu, they weren't comfortable with the scene because it was only sourced from this document that was leaked to us. And there wasn't a secondary source and I was very frustrated because I thought, yeah, but it's a Justice Department document. Why can't we use it? And so what I did was I kept the scene on the schedule. I just thought I'm just going to shoot the scene because it's better to have it in post and maybe I can fight that fight another day and still get the scene into the show. But I won't be able to get the scene in the show if I don't shoot it while we're in production. So then two days before I go to shoot the scene, Patrick Radden Keefe's book _Empire of Pain,_ Beth Macy gets an early galley copy and he goes into heavy detail about that exact scene and the memo. And that was all the confirmation that Hulu needed for us to be able to not only shoot the scene, but, but use it. So it was this sort of great moment of we had this week document, uh, it wasn't strong enough for, for Hulu to let us to roll with it. And then a second source came up just in the nick of time. Um, however, like I said, I would have shot it anyways and I could have used the second source after the fact, but things like that were quite exciting because, because of the, the, how it was described in the book, I was able then to even go further in my portrayal, then in my original rewrite. I mean my original writing of the scene. So I rewrote the scene that night made it even more explosive and then we went and shot it. 

Tara Ariano: Wow. That's a crazy story. 

Danny Strong: Very unusual for me over my career as a screenwriter to have things like that. Uh, but there were people that would come out of the woodwork and give us information. And then I had another source that was privy to a lot of the, the documents in the bankruptcy. And so what I would do was when I would get this new information, I would then go to him or her and confirm it. And then we were good to go because we would have, we would have multiple, uh, it would be multiple sourced and Disney, uh, slash Hulu lawyers would feel confident that, that we could move forward with it.

Tara Ariano: Wow. So you had leakers from the Justice Department, but also from Purdue and just sort of around? 

Danny Strong: Yeah, we had an amazing source from Purdue from that era that gave us a lot of great material and a lot of good, just kind of personal color to help construct these characters in a, in a realistic, uh, well-rounded way. It's, Richard Sackler is a very challenging person to dramatize. Uh he's, he's so villainized publicly, but then when you talk to people that know him personally they hate him even more, right. He's, he's clearly a difficult person to be around. There's clearly a very unusual personality disorder. Um, there's a famous email in which his son, David Sackler emailed their mother Beth Sackler, and the things he says about his dad are pretty brutal. Right? So people, people around him, um, have a hard time have a hard time dealing with him and so I needed to just find, you know, it was like a scavenger hunt of, okay, so let me find some other sides to this. Cause clearly there's gotta be other sides to this person than just the sort of first blush response to them. 

Tara Ariano: Yeah, well, to that point, I have to ask, how many performers did you see for the role of Richard's dog, Unch? 

Danny Strong: Unch, ugh, I love Unch. That on, so, so funny story about Unch, and by the way, Unch I don't know, but the, the performer that played Unch, Tank, that's who I love. Tank is the sweetest dog ever. Uh, so Unch, so here's, here's, I'm going to come clean about something that is historically inaccurate in our show. Unch was a French Mastiff, but because where we were in Virginia, we couldn't get a French Mastiff, so we had to hire an English Mastiff. Ah, it's all lies. The show was all lies. So literally Tank was our one and only option if I wanted a Mastiff. Something in the Mastiff family. Uh, so yes, it was a, and then when Unch, when Tank showed up, he didn't have a... he wasn't a very mobile dog. And so we couldn't, we couldn't do much with him, but literally just have them a lie there. Uh, but I, I thought, uh, it added a great layer and dimension to humanize Richard Sackler. And that came from my source in Purdue Pharma that said he was most human around his dog, and that was kind of... the quote was, "it was the only time you ever saw he had a heart," um, was a, when he was with Unch. And, um, and, uh, Michael Stuhlbarg who brilliantly played Richard Sackler, he loved having Unch in scenes. So I just kept writing Unch into scene after scene. Uh, and got, it got him into more episodes. So more dog bones for Tank. 

Tara Ariano: Good boy. 

Danny Strong: Good boy. Good Tank. 

Tara Ariano: What struck me about the Sackler scenes generally is not just that their, their money doesn't make them happy, but nothing makes them happy. And the show doesn't have a ton of levity, but did part of you enjoy making those Sackler scenes as vicious as they are?

Danny Strong: Well, it was, once again, that stuff is based on reporting. So. Uh, there was a scene that we shot and we shot it as reported and it was too unbelievable. So what happened was, was that, um, so Mortimer Sackler, uh, was so outraged at Richard Sackler taking over the company that he went and he tried to punch his brother, Raymond Sackler, but he missed him and punched his lawyer in the face. Okay. So that happened. We shot it and it was, it was... it felt too ridiculous. Uh, and it was one of the, one of the only times Hulu came back and said, 'Hey, You went too far.' And I said, 'no, no, no, that's actually what happens.' And they said, oh wow. It's just, it just feels like we're in a different TV show. It's just, it's just too, too, over the top. And so I actually cut the punch out because it was too absurd, but the, the fighting and the screaming. So nonetheless, that's the point is, is that that's how those, uh, those meetings are reported to have been quote kinda crazy frolic while the affairs of the two factions of the family, uh, yelling, screaming at each other. Uh, and there was a lot of animosity between the Mortimer and, um, and Raymond wings. Uh, and I think, uh, the Raymond wing, which was Jonathan and Richard, they were really doing the work. They were really at the company and it was just the two of them, those two brothers. So the money that was coming in was more than plenty and Richard Sackler was, I think, like frugal with his money. Where the other wing them, the Mortimer wing, not only did they not really do the work, uh, but there was a ton of them because he had so many children. So that created this sort of, you know, spoiled, entitled dysfunction of all these mouths to feed that aren't lifting a finger, but are demanding their cash. And so that created just a ton of, of tension between between the two factions. 

Tara Ariano: Yeah to go back one more generation, you've said in other interviews that you wanted to give Arthur Sackler his own plot line. And we do see a little of him testifying to Congress and just based on that, it seems like there could be enough there for a spinoff movie. What don't people know about Arthur that they should? 

Danny Strong: Well, I have to say that the, the book, _Empire of_ _Pain_ goes into Arthur Sackler in the most fascinating, brilliant way. It's it's, it's an unbelievable story. Patrick Radden Keefe tells it beautifully and it's it's, uh, I refer to it as Charles Dickenson hell. It is just the most Dickensian story of his journey and what he achieved and, and, uh, he, he redefined modern medical advertising. He basically, I think in some ways you could say Arthur Sackler created the essential corruption that is big pharma now. In the dishonesty and manipulation, And by the way, I don't think all of big pharma is, is dishonest and corrupt. Uh, but there are elements of it in which people absolutely put profits above safety, create false studies, create false articles, create false diagnosises, uh, in order to sell a drug that that people may not need. And then under estimating or underselling the effects of what that drug does. And that's certainly what he did with Valium, which was highly addictive, uh, created basically, you know, the malady psychic tension for, uh, for what was needed, uh, so that, so that they could then market this drug for that. So you could, um, say that, wow, this person's an absolute genius. You could say that they're an absolute evil genius, or you could just say they're evil. It's, it's, it's really up to you. Um, but it's certainly, I think in many ways, uh, would go on to define, not just medical advertising, but, but the, the very nature of American pharmaceutical industry in general. And that's why you see other countries don't have some of the issues we have because they don't, they don't allow this. They don't allow these things to happen because the government controls prescription medication, et cetera.

Tara Ariano: So let's move on to the sales rep from pharma, Billy, and to Sam, the doctor that we see Billy selling to. The audience needs to believe both that Billy is, as he puts it, addicted to the money that he's making from selling Oxycontin, but also that he genuinely cares about Sam who ends up becoming addicted to Oxycontin himself. What moments did you feel were most instrumental in defining both Billy and his drive and, and the character's relationship to each other? 

Danny Strong: Well, I, again, a lot of it comes from true stories and comes from interviews and people that I actually interviewed. And I remember interviewing a former Purdue sales rep from this era, uh, and him talking about how much they believed everything Purdue was, was selling them and, and, and I've interviewed a few pharma reps from this year, and they all said the same thing, which is they were conned as well. However, at a certain point, they start to realize what's happening. And I, I remember one particular person I asked, I said, what was the point for you? When did you realize, oh, this drug that you're selling as non addictive actually is addictive? And he said, he pulled up to a pain clinic and it looked like a tailgate party. And there were people out front barbecuing meat, listening to music, drinking beers, and it was just like a giant party. And that was the moment he realized, oh, this is not true what we're selling. And, and I said, oh, well then did you quit? And he said, no. And he didn't quit for several years. And it was because he was addicted to the money. He was addicted to the lifestyle. He was addicted of how, uh, how easy the job was at a certain point. Now he, he did quit, but it was, it, it took several years and it was, it was fear for, for his own, you know, safety at the end of the day. And then, and then after that went on a very serious soul-searching and does quite a bit of altruistic stuff in the addiction community now. But it was, it was, it was just so real and fascinating and that's where that portrayal came from. 

Tara Ariano: So in terms of Sam, it, it only takes a few scenes in the first episode to establish he's a good doctor, the patients that he treats really love and respect him, but because of the way the show's chronology kind of loops back on itself, we in the audience have already seen him high testifying to the grand jury. Showing Sam during his addiction before anything else feels like it's part of your overall mission to de-stigmatize substance use disorder talk about that if I'm right. 

Danny Strong: Yeah, no, that's absolutely correct. So, so one of the reasons why I wanted to have a character who was a doctor that got addicted and who was a good man and a good person, right? I mean, there were many pill mills. We show the pill mills. There were absolutely corrupt doctors that were taking advantage of this and were essentially drug dealers. And we do cover that. But the point of having the Finnix character, which is inspired by three different doctors, but I would not be surprised if there's not thousands of Finnix's, of doctors that got addicted to Oxycontin and other opioids, is to show how truly addictive this drug was. That a doctor who had a very high level, a very elite medical education, he himself got hooked and he did not want to get hooked. This was not a pleasure seeker. This was someone who started taking it for an injury, uh, like so many people. Uh, and so to have that character and then to have another character, which was the Betsy character, which was a person who got injured on a job and, and then became addicted, it was to show two different addiction journeys. Two different paths that people would go on. And they were... two of those, they were basic archetypes of anecdotes I had read over and over and over again. And there are obviously several more archetypes than just the two of them, but, but that seemed to cover quite a bit and by showing a loving, talented, really smart doctor get addicted, the point was to show how truly overwhelming an all encompassing an opioid addiction can be. 

Tara Ariano: Yeah. Also that with the video, the, the promotional video and how much the patients that are in it keeps stressing, I did not have to miss work because of Oxycontin, that's part of it too, for, for Betsy, for sure. That we're just locked, we're locked in as hell. 

Danny Strong: Yeah. Yeah. And it was, um, and that was a huge, I mean, that video was really significant. It was just to sent a thousands and thousands of doctors and, and, uh, when I was investigating the US attorney investigation, uh, into how they put their case together, just as the show portrays it, that video was sort of a big kind of opening moment when no one in the video is mentioning Oxycontin by name in a video designed to sell Oxycontin. It just tipped them off that, huh, I think there's something going on here. Uh, and then the case went on from there. 

Tara Ariano: So the last plot thread is you've already touched on involves the law enforcement officials and Bridget, the Rosario Dawson character, has a lot of surreal moments as a DEA agent, but meeting Rudy Giuliani and very quickly losing all the respect that she had had for him is, I would say, one of the wildest, particularly to 2022 eyes.

Danny Strong: Yeah. Yeah. So that character is a composite character; however, the actions that character takes when she is transferred to the diversion division are based upon things that an actual diversion agent did. And, and several of those scenes are actual scenes that happened. Some of them verbatim as reported in different books and that Rudy Giuliani scene, that actually happened. Um, and, uh, and, and not dissimilar from, from how we portrayed it. And, and Giuliani was, I think, as the show portrays, as one of the defining figures in the opioid crisis and that his ability to lobby the highest levels of the justice department, uh, his position as the front runner to get the Republican nomination, uh, so that, uh, the officials in the justice department that, uh, were seeking to curry favor for him. We're very aware that there could be a fantastic job if he were to become the next President of the United States. And therefore they put pressure on Brownlee to not pursue felony charges against the individuals. And I think that that is one of those historical turning points. Had those individuals been charged, had they had flipped. One of them flipped on the Sacklers. Rick Mountcastle firmly believes one of them would have. He actually told me the name of the person he thinks would have flipped and, uh, and had that it happened, the opioid crisis very well could have ended in 2007. Um, uh, Purdue Pharma, everything would have been different for them. Instead they pled guilty to these misdemeanors, the company pled guilty to a felony, and instead of they're, they're selling and they're marketing techniques being curtailed or shifted, which would have happened had Richard Sackler or someone been indicted, uh, the opposite happened. And they hit the gas, they tripled their sales within two years. They brought McKinsey on board who helped them quote, turbocharge their sales. And the sales of Oxycontin skyrocketed, uh, post this settlement, um, over the next several years. And, and I think that that is one of, not just the great tragedies of the opiod crisis, but one of the great tragedies, uh, in the history of the country. I think that the number of deaths hadn't hit this sort of cataclysmic level by 2007, but many people had died. It was still extremely tragic, but those numbers skyrocketed over the next 13, 14 years. And they still are. Uh, and, and so that's, to me that was sort of a potential turning point in history. And the other one was when the FDA sides with Purdue Pharma over the DEA's investigation. That was a scene we did with the Bridget character, uh, in which they literally side with Purdue in the room. Uh, and that scene, all of that actually happened. A lot of that dialogue is verbatim. There's a slideshow that Bridget is giving and that slideshow was the actual slideshow they gave on the day that was leaked to me. So I'd put it in the show. Um, and that was a, uh, I think that, that, that too was a turning point because that was the moment that the FDA could have completely changed Purdue Pharma's ability to prescribe for moderate pain and restricted it to severe pain, or just put greater restrictions on them and instead they side with Purdue over the DEA. I think that's another, another truly great tragic moment. 

Tara Ariano: Yeah. Well, so much of the shady stuff that Purdue does is totally legal. How difficult was it for you to dramatize the difference between actions that are quote, merely corrupt and those that rise to the level of criminal?

Danny Strong: Well, because, um, in fact, some of it, some of what they did is merely corrupt and then some of what they did is flat out criminal. They created fake blood charts. I mean, literally fake blood charts. They created fake studies. They said things that were the opposite of true. So what they pled guilty to is a company in 2007 and they had to sign a statement of facts of what they pled guilty to is unbelievably damning. It is so criminal. Uh, so that's, that is one of the things that is so maddening and absurd about how it didn't change anything and that they were able to in fact, grow exponentially even stronger post, post this, these, these, um, felony convictions for the company. And it was truly because I believe, and many people believe, uh, because individuals, uh, weren't charged with felonies, uh, and they were able to essentially get off scott free with a fine of is about 630 million, which for them was just the cost of doing business. 

Tara Ariano: Yeah. Was dismantling the Sacklers legacy, which continues something that you particularly hoped to do with the show?

Danny Strong: Yeah, a huge motivation was when I started this, it was 2018. The Patrick Radden Keefe, _New_ _Yorker_ article had just come out. Uh, and that's when I first was introduced to all this like many people, including Nan Goldin who after she read that article is when she started doing her protests. But I, it had seemed when I was working on this and, and not even just those early days for the first two years of me working on the project that they would just, that they had gotten away with it. If they had gotten away with it, they were completely getting away with it. There was no comeuppance for them whatsoever. And so my motivation was to give them the trial that they never got. Was to lay out the facts of their rampant criminal enterprise of the lies and deception that created the opioid crisis, because I'm still flabbergasted by the fact that one family made billions and billions of dollars off the suffering of millions and millions of people. And that the death and destruction of people in communities for a, such a small group of people to profit from it's still, it's still so shocking. Alex Gibney made a terrific documentary and called _Crime of the Century,_ and that's what it is. It's the crime of the century. And, and it was very important to me to get these facts out and to get this story out in as wide a way as possible. Uh, and, and it was very, it was very much a motivation. Then my other motivation was to I, had two other motivations that are, that are sort of tied together, was to redefine the nature of addiction that people view, um, people with addiction issues, uh, particularly opioid addiction as, as losers and failures and that they're weak or they're burnouts, or they just want to get high. Right? When in fact, what has occurred is their brain has been hijacked and they cannot live without this drug, or they are in so much pain they think they're going to die. And that's what being _Dopesick_ is called. And to me, I didn't know that going in, going into this project and it blew my mind. It blew my mind how everything I understood about addiction was completely wrong. And then the last thing was that that there's actually a path forward that's pretty effective or for many people extremely effective, which is, um, buprenorphine, uh, specifically Suboxone. Um, and it's so stigmatized. And, uh, last I had read 17% of the people that need Suboxone get it. It's like saying 17, 17% of the people that need chemotherapy get it. It's it's, it's, it's, it's a statistic that's not just upsetting, but we can do something about that. So I thought this show could really be a, a terrific advertisement promotion for, for medical assisted treatment, for opioid use disorder and that's why it's a huge part of the last episode. That's very specifically designed to be a goal of look, here is a path forward and it's stigmatized, but it shouldn't be. And, and so those were the, that those were the, the motivations behind the piece.

Tara Ariano: Let's share some final thoughts. Uh, I feel like all the discoveries our law enforcement characters that make that turn out, not to be actionable because witnesses are scared to talk or have been bought or something that seems like a should be illegal is totally fine. Like if this were going to be a movie, it could have been about just the rank totally legal corruption that made all of the Sacklers destruction possible. Latoya, what did you feel about this part of the story? 

Latoya Ferguson: I think if it were a movie it'd probably focus on, you know, the investigation part. I think it would lose a bit of the humanity aspect of it. And yeah, unfortunately, as hopeful as the show is basically it's, it's ends on like a fighting chance if you, you know, band together. It really is just a reminder of the way the upper-class, uh, can just screw everyone else over, you know? 

Tara Ariano: Yeah. I mean, it reminds me of _Dark Waters_ in that way too, where it sorta like every industry is like pharma in that they're going to push as far as they can and just wait until there's a reprisal. But otherwise there's no reason for them to change what they're doing, which is grim.

Latoya Ferguson: But the key is to keep on going and not just let them continue on. Yeah, they keep continuing on. Wow. We weren't depressed to start this off, but also I'll say my real final thoughts though is that both TV and movies taught me that if you have to snort something for it to work that's bad and this show confirmed that as well.

Tara Ariano: Well, uh, I'll try to be slightly more optimistic. I, I do appreciate that after, you know, the really dark stuff as the investigation wraps up in the final episode where we actually close is back with Sam running his clinic. He's, he's gotten his license back. He's working with other people in recovery and he's finding meaning by making connections with other people that are in recovery and sharing what he's learned and, and helping people to stay on their path. Which is, we said earlier, that's, that's the most hopeful message we can get out of this. 

Latoya Ferguson: Yeah. Do as much as you can basically, to fight the system, especially when the whole system is seemingly working to, uh, push you down. And again, they were targeting these small working class towns where all really you have is your community. And in doing so it fractured said community. So even though it's a small place, starting at that small level is so helpful. 

Tara Ariano: Yeah. Yeah circumstances can strive to keep us apart and connection is what we should all be striving for. And I think that's a lovely way for the show to have ended and for us to end today.

Latoya Ferguson: Thanks so much for listening to this special edition of _Little Gold Men_. You can find me on Twitter @lafergs. 

Tara Ariano: And you can find me every Wednesday co-hosting the TV podcast,_ Extra Hot Great_. I'm on Twitter @taraariano. T A R A A R I A N O. Our editor and producer was Brett Fuchs. 

"Dopesick" Scene: "It's crucial they understand we've created the greatest painkiller in the history of human civilization." "I think I can make this the biggest drug in the world."