Katey Rich: Hello, and welcome to _Little Gold Men_ the award season podcast from _Vanity Fair_. Intro: "It's such an honor to present this next award." "And here are the nominees." "And the Oscar goes to..." "And the Oscar goes to..." "And I can't deny the fact that you like me. Right now, you like me." "I'm the king of the world!" "There's a mistake, _Moonlight_, you guys won best picture." Katey Rich: I am Katey Rich, and I'm here with a supersized crew today. I've got Richard Lawson. Richard Lawson: Hello. Katey Rich: Rebecca Ford. Rebecca Ford: Hi Katey. Katey Rich: David Canfield. David Canfield: Hello. And returning guest, by special request of so many listeners and also us, Chris Murphy. Chris Murphy: Hi, thanks for having me back. Katey Rich: Uh, we are delighted as always. We have a lot to talk about today. Richard and Rebecca are back from Cannes. We're going to catch up on the winners from that ceremony. Uh, over Memorial Day weekend we saw our first pictures of Bradley Cooper as Leonard Bernstein. There's so much to discuss there, so much Oscar buzz in the single image. Fire Island, the movie that, uh, Chris you've discussed on the show previously and were on the set of is coming up this week. And then we are kicking off our pride month Oscar flashback series. Every week in June we are going to be looking back at a film with a connection to Oscar history and to queer history in one way or another. And we're going to be starting with Rebel Without a Cause. But let's start by flashing back to Cannes. First of all, Richard and Rebecca, how are you feeling? Do you miss the beach? Do you miss the French? Are you happy to be home? Richard Lawson: I think I almost said merci to someone at a deli the other day and I was like, oh, nope, nope, nope. Not there anymore. Uh, but that's it. Otherwise I'm fully readjusted to American life. Rebecca Ford: Yeah, I'm adjusted too. I, I feel like having a few days without rosé in my veins is actually a good for me, so- Katey Rich: You can get rosé at home by the way. You don't have to give up that habit. Rebecca Ford: It doesn't taste as good if you don't have a few of the sea, let's just be real about it. Katey Rich: Um, well the awards happened on Saturday, I believe, after you guys were both on your way home._ Triangle of Sadness_ won the Palme d'Or. It's the second Palme d'Or in like five years for Ruben Östlund I believe? Was that the big surprise for you guys, or was there anything else noteworthy from these awards? Richard Lawson: I would say that was surprising- ish. The scuttlebutt had been that there was going to be a split well, like a shared winner, like a tie basically for Palme d'Or. That didn't have- that happened in second place. And there were a couple other ties in the awards that were given out. But I think that much like the _Square,_ Östund's last film to win the Palme d'Or, I feel like _Triangle of Sadness_ was probably a consensus choice. It appealed enough to enough of the members of the jury. Vincent Lindon, the president of the jury, the French actor, had said in an interview that he did not want to be a tie breaker. He didn't want it- he wanted it to be very democratic. And so this felt like a democratic pick in that it was big splashy, pretty universally popular at the festival. Uh, and so it won and it also has a heap of social commentary politics in it that feel very relevant. So it's not like a completely toothless movie that just is nice, and that therefore beat all the other more challenging films. It's a challenging film onto itself. Rebecca Ford: Yeah, I wasn't surprised it won., you know, I feel like it was a film that a lot of people were talking about on the ground there, whether they loved it or not. It was definitely, um, a point of conversation. And I think quite a few of the winners I wasn't that surprised, you know, there've been a lot of buzz, obviously, decision to leave. Park Chan-wook won director, which I wasn't surprised by. I was surprised, and maybe Richard has more intel on this than I do about, uh, Claire Denis' film tying for second place. Because the buzz on that one wasn't so hot. Richard Lawson: Yeah. That movie, to my mind, is legitimately awful. And it was very divisive at the festival. There was a definitely a vocal coterie of critics who really liked it. Um, and then there were people on my side of things who really hated it. I didn't hear a lot of 'it was okay.' You know, it was very polarizing. Um, and I wrote a kind of wrap-up piece that's on the website. Now, if people want to read it about the whole festival or my experience at the festival, and I think that maybe that's the mark of cause of a successful Cannes film, or regardless of the award it won, that it was just like this very polarizing and very talked about movie. Some in the negative and some in the positive. Um, and that shared billing or shared second prize with, uh, Lukas Dhon'ts, uh, film _Close_, which is from Belgium. And that movie I had been sort of whispered to me as like being, going to be the big breakout. It premiered on the second to last day of the festival. Uh, I was really amped for it. I did not like it. Uh, I was very much in the minority there, so that was much less polarizing. There were a few of us who didn't like it, but everyone else seemed to go crazy for that sort of queer friendship story about middle school aged boys. Katey Rich: And Luka Dhont's last movie, _Girl, _was a big deal at Cannes, but then got like- was really polarizing when it came out right? Richard Lawson: Yeah. I mean, my sort of joke on the ground there was that Lukas Dhont has like a, a piece of paper with queer issues that were written at the top and he's just checking off, you know... I don't know what his next phone's gonna, you know, but they, they feel very didactic and sort of like "issue movie." And look that works for some people. _Girl_ obviously played very well in France and not at all well in the United States for how it dealt with trans issues. This one is a far less controversial, uh, in terms of how it approaches its subject matter. Although, again, I think Dhont is a sort of crass manipulator of emotion. He stages twists and big things that happen in order to get a reaction from the audience that I think he could have done a bit more delicately. And that was my major issue with that movie. Rebecca Ford: And the one other thing I wanted to point out that I thought was pretty exciting was the first feature award went to Gina Gammell and Riley Keough for _War Pony_. It was a film I really liked and was really impressed with. Especially because it's their first time in the director's chair. And you know, it's a story set on a Native American reservation. Um, they worked with writers who are Native American, lived on the reservation and it's really their story. So, um, that'll I think be a film that people should check out when it finally does get released as well. Yeah. And the connection to that was that she met the two writers. They were extras in _American_ _Honey._ And they were just, you know, between takes or whatever and got to talking and she was like hearing these stories about growing up on a Lakota reservation. And she was like, 'you should make this a movie.' And then they did. It's an interesting mix of people from outside that community, working with people from within it and creating a movie that now is a Cannes certified award-winner. Katey Rich: Uh, it also, when the Palme Dog. I'm looking at Wikipedia, which is award accurate. Richard Lawson: Oh yeah, the dog is really cute. There are a number of puppies in the film, but there's one main puppy. Katey Rich: Britain _War Pony_ is how it's credited. So I'm assuming that's Brit. Uh, yeah, that's always an important award to keep an eye on. Richard Lawson: Speaking of dogs should we talk about _Elvis?_ Katey Rich: I mean, we will get there in a couple of weeks, is when rest of us will get the chance to experience it. But, uh, it sounds like you're, you can't wait to get there. David Canfield: What a tease. Richard Lawson: Yeah, that, that, that was like the biggest premiere from the American selection at the festival. Um, and we, I was about to see it when we recorded the podcast last week and it half lived up to the hype in that Austin Butler is really great in the movie. I just wished Baz Luhrmann would actually make the movie about him and not about Colonel Tom Parker and also Baz Luhrmann. Katey Rich: I do. I do think there's a contention of us here who have not seen it yet, who keep reading the pant and being like, what? Yes? I want to see that. Chris Murphy: Inject it directly into my veins. I have to see it. Katey Rich: Although I feel like, I think sitting down for two and a half hours with it is going tofeel different than just reading you guys describing the insanity. Richard Lawson: I mean, the thing about it that you guys seeing it is that unfortunately, after you see it, I'm pretty sure you won't then go to a beach party where there is a drone light show and the drones spell out _Elvis_ several times in the night sky over the Mediterranean. Katey Rich: You don't know what I have planned. Chris Murphy: Never say never. Richard Lawson: That's true. Okay. Fair enough. I don't know what goes on in North Carolina. Katey Rich: Uh, yeah, we'll definitely get to_ Elvis_. That feels like a, you know, in the summer we're always kind of casting around for finding Oscar buzz. And like, I don't know if _Elvis_ is a real one, but it's certainly worth our consideration at the very least. Uh, well, back stateside and over Memorial Day Weekend, um, Netflix did something that I'm sure they have done before, and maybe one of you guys remembers better, but, um, they kind of sent out an email blast with- from the set of _Maestro _and it's photos of Bradley Cooper as Leonard Bernstein, uh, in a biopic that he is directing. Uh, Bradley Cooper is, of course, the director of a _Star is Born_, which is a legitimately great movie. And to me, I think has earned, uh, the right of... I don't have the right to doubt Bradley Cooper because he tends to turn in really interesting things when he does this. But I think a lot of us kind of look at someone in like latex old age makeup, and think like, 'okay, here we go again.' But I'm still really interested in this movie because Leonard Bernstein is obviously a fascinating person worthy of this. Um, anyone feeling more or less skeptical than I am. I, I, I want to believe in this movie and I want to withhold judgment is mainly where I landed. David Canfield: I'm feeling intrigued and highly skeptical. I, the sec, the second round of images that I don't think they blasted out that I think came out via Getty, like more set photos where you see Carey Mulligan caked in the old age makeup made me feel like, 'Ooh, we're really leaning in here.' um, and those efforts tend to be pretty hit and miss. I mean, I definitely have a lot of faith in him as a director and I have feelings about the nose and all... I think it's all been covered pretty well online, and I'm pretty much right in the middle there. Chris Murphy: So I have to say, I, when the photos came out, I was like, wow, Bradley Cooper looks great. Who did they cast as that old guy? David Canfield: Same. Chris Murphy: I did not realize it was him. Which I think I could go either way. I'm excited. I do think, this is so crazy to say, and I think Katey, you agree with me, somehow Bradley Cooper is underrated even though he's Bradley Cooper, um, which is insane. So I do feel that the project is in good hands. I haven't seen those other images that you mentioned, David. And I am going to go directly- David Canfield: -google.com Chris Murphy: To google.com when this is over. But I do, I really I'm, I'm optimistic. I'm going to say, I'm going to go fully optimistic on this one. David Canfield: One other thing I'll say to avoid, at the risk of sending like the cynic of the group is, there is a big report in the _Hollywood Reporter_ today that we're recording about, uh, Netflix stopping funding quote expensive vanity projects. And they mentioned stuff like the _Irishman_, uh... Katey Rich: And that movie was incredibly expensive. David Canfield: It was, I mean, that is, that is the height of, um, you know, that's the best example you could pick from. But I do wonder if there is a bit of counter PR happening there, which is like, we're still supporting these kinds of movies and these kinds of these kinds of very fully intensely realized visions from top names and filmmakers. Anyway, just throwing that out there. Chris Murphy: To wonder what Jake Gyllenhaal thinks seeing those photos. He was sort of on the record, really wanting to play Bernstein, but I don't know. I think Bradley, I believe in Bradley. Rebecca Ford: I do feel like Katey, you missed your opportunity to, to name the hair and makeup winner because- Katey Rich: I know Rebecca Ford: Kazu Hiro has ... that he's just like a master and, and obviously won for _Darkest Hour_. Katey Rich: And _Bombshell_ too, right? Rebecca Ford: And _Bombshell._ Yes. And, and I think it will be interesting cause I do feel like sometimes there's this pattern where the main person who is being changed, looks amazing, and then everyone else looks like an afterthought. I'm curious to see those pictures that David mentioned, because I haven't seen them either, but, yeah. I feel like the hair and makeup award has already been locked. And we should just call it a day on that one. Richard Lawson: I'm curious if the film is going to get into the fact that Jessica Chastain lives in Leonard Bernstein's old house across from Carnegie Hall. I feel like that would be a really pertinent detail. Katey Rich: The entire third act, I think. Richard Lawson: Oh good. Okay, good. It's just her and her Italian count husband like redecorating. Chris Murphy: What's her accent? Katey Rich: Does anyone know the story of how both Martin Scorsese and Steven Spielberg became producers on this? Along with Bradley Cooper and various other people? David Canfield: No. Katey Rich: That's fascinating. Rebecca Ford: I bet... I think I heard Scorsese was supposed to direct originally. I don't know about Spielberg. Katey Rich: Okay. I mean, that's, I guess that's generally how things like that happens. Chris Murphy: Spielberg makes sense with _West Side Story_, I guess. Katey Rich: Yeah. Right. Chris Murphy: So there's that connection. So maybe it was something... he's on a Bernstein kick. Katey Rich: Yeah. Yeah. Chris, you mentioning Bradley Cooper being under appreciated. I feel like I just say this constantly, he's been nominated for nine Oscars, including four Best Picture Oscars and has never won one. And it's, um, it's getting a little crazy. David Canfield: Including _Joker_. Katey Rich: Yeah. Until, until they rally his last domination was as producer of _Joker,_ which is bananas. Chris Murphy: Let's just erase that one. Katey Rich: I mean, look, he earned it. He worked hard on that. So yeah, I mean, I think the Bradley Cooper, Oscar narrative, like when is he finally going to win is going to take over at some point and, um, you know, might as well be for this one. David Canfield: Yeah. Strictly, technically speaking, the transformation is pretty incredible. I will say. Katey Rich: Yeah. I mean, I, we want to see it in motion, right? Like, and I think a lot of times you can look at these photos and being like what? He's unrecognizable. And then, you know, even in _Bombshell_, which is not necessarily a great movie, like Charlize Theron's performance worked, even under that transformation. David Canfield: I've been a little bit disappointed of late by the ease with which we'll give an actor, a transformation headline. Like I think Jessica Biel's wonderful in _Candy,_ but it's not a transformation. Chris Murphy: That's a wig. That's literally one wig. David Canfield: So I'm supporting this movie on those merits, for now. Katey Rich: Well this week at home brings a release of a exciting new movie that unlike _Top Gun: Maverick_, you can see in your house. And Chris Murphy, you have been on the beat on_ Fire Island_ for us for a year now. You were on _Fire Island_ itself on the set of this movie, directed by Andrew Ahn. It's finally out. It's, uh, uh, the gay Pride and Prejudice_dice_, and actually Chris, I put you on the spot and say that we were talking about this, but how you had not read Pride and Prejudice_dice._ And then, uh, before seeing this movie, which is such an exciting way to, uh, to reverse engineer that story. David Canfield: Oh I love that. Chris Murphy: Absolutely blow up my spot. Haven't read it. Haven't even seen either of the like popular versions with Matthew Macfadyen or even the other _Pride and Prejudice_. So this was really my first sort of foray into that material. And I gotta say I loved it. It's a really great story if you haven't heard about it. Katey Rich: Yeah. This, the story about a guy who seems like a jerk, but actually is in love with you. It turns out it's an enduring trope that people like to see. Chris Murphy: People, it really still hits in 2022. I've got to, say the movie, um, really does adhere to sort of the _Pride and Prejudicedice_ narrative way more than I would have expected having like now research and gone in and learned more about Jane Austen. Um, and it's really like a classic great gay queer romcom that really hits all the beats. At least for me. That I feel like a romcom needs to hit without pandering to mainstream culture, straight culture, like it's really sort of unapologetically queer and goes into some sort of racy material. A la the _Bros_ trailer, but in a completely different way. And I think it's like, it's really, it's not fun for the whole family, but it's definitely fun for queer audiences. Richard Lawson: For the chosen family. Chris Murphy: For the chosen family. Exactly. That's, that's the tagline. Katey Rich: It's about too. It's about, they, very literally about a chosen family. Chris Murphy: Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I think everyone that's sort of the core chosen family of like Margaret Cho, Matt Rogers, Joel Kim Booster, Bowen Yang, Tomas Matos, and Torian Miller, they all do really wonderful work. And I got to say, I got to shout out Matt Rogers and Tomas Matos really get in some hilarious one-liners and quips. Katey, we were talking about which characters they're based off of, but they really, um, they really are hilarious. Katey Rich: They're the Lydia and the Kitty, I think is the name. The, the, the dopey youngest Bennett sisters who mess everything up by being stupid, basically. that trope works very well in this movie. Chris Murphy: Yeah, absolutely lives up to the hype. I think people who are familiar with _Fire Island_ and just in that culture will appreciate, and people who are familiar with the Jane Austen novel,_ Pride and_ _Prejudice_ will also- there are so many entryway points into it that I really think, I think it's an absolute splash. Richard Lawson: I think one thing about the film that works so well, is that you, Chris, reporting that piece that you wrote for us, like we're on _Fire Island._ They filmed in the actual place and that makes all the difference for me. I think that it has such a great local specificity to it that might not, you know, people who have never been there might not be able to relate to specific like, 'oh, there's the ice palace and there's this and that.' But I think it draws any viewer in, because it is really like of its place, of the title of the film. They set out to make something that was really specific and I think they achieved that, which is exciting to see. Katey Rich: Yeah. And as someone who hasn't been a _Fire Island_, I don't think it's alienating because I think it does a good job of like establishing what the culture of this really specific place is and leaning on it to frame what we're saying, is this very universal story. And like really a sweet story when it comes down to it. Even though there's like a lot of sex in the background and a lot of party drugs and that kind of thing. It's not shying away from things that might not be familiar to straight people, but it's, it's all part and parcel of the story that I think anyone can get into. Richard Lawson: Well, the sex and the drugs, that's made up for the movie. That's not actually a _Fire Island_ thing. Chris Murphy: It's actually a dry island. Richard Lawson: It's a lot of church going and things like that. Chris Murphy: I will say, I do think it's, it's really, I don't wanna use the word progressive, but because the movie is just defacto queer and it's just not, it's not really, you know, it's not a coming out narrative. It's not sort of like wrestling with what queerness is and that's just sort of the baseline. It's able to sort of venture into these other avenues in terms of sex and drugs and also race and class and body image and sort of things that are below the surface of queerness that we don't often get to in queer narratives. In a really compelling way, I think Bowen and Joel has some really great it's really, frankly, it's sort of like emotionally fraught and like very moving conversations about what it's like to be a queer person of color or queer Asian American on that island specifically. And also operating in the world that I just found so refreshing and wonderful that we were able to sort of break through the surface and that they really went there, which is fantastic. David Canfield: Yeah, it's such a great proof of concept in a lot of ways. Like when you, when you hear, I used to cover books a lot and you hear like gay _Pride and Prejudicedice_, and those lines cover every subject line of every pitch ever, basically. But I feel like the movie does a pretty brilliant job of giving you this really full thorough portrait of queer _Fire Island_ culture. And nestling into nestling into, as you say, Chris, and extremely faithful imagining of _Pride and Prejudice_ for that world. I was very impressed by the deftness of that balance. Rebecca Ford: Yeah, I think they really make it look easy to just welcome us all into this world. And it's not. And I also have not someone who's ever visited _Fire Island_, but I, I felt like I completely understood the setting and the world and sort of the culture of this area. And I especially want to give Margaret Cho a shout out. Like I just thought having this really impressive Asian American cast was just so exciting to see. And the way those, that extra sort of layer is just part of the script. It's part of the story and just feels so natural and doesn't have to be sort of forced, um, felt really special with this movie. Chris Murphy: Uh, the star, Joel Kim Booster also wrote it and it's based off of his experience. So it's like he's doing double duty as star and writer, and he does really excellent work in both places. David Canfield: He's a great comic. He's been a great comic for a long time. So those who know are very happy to see them get this showcase. But I, I must say that as great as the whole cast is, for me it's just like Bowen Yang is such a star. And to see him just run with a role like this and prove just how dynamic he is. Chris Murphy: I talked with Bowen and I had a long talk with Bowen this week that's coming out. That should be coming out I think, around when this podcast airs, and really getting into sort of how sort of difficult it was for him to go from SNL, where he's doing sketches and it's fun and you can just let it go after every show. You know, nothing sort of like sticks with him. And you just go week to week to week to sitting with this character of Howie. And actually initially in the first version of this, really until like right before shooting, the characters were named Bowen and Joel. Not Noah and Howie. Yeah. So it's that personal and that sort of deeply felt. And actually they changed the names of the characters, like sort of like pretty, like soon before filming, which allowed him to have some more space to like really sit with the character. Which I thought was fascinating, but he does some really great work. He actually, not to give too much away, but there's a musical moment. And he chose the song for the big musical moment. Um, which was, it's just a brilliant, fantastic, somewhat deep cut and a really nice performance. But yeah, it was really lovely to see someone who we've gotten so used to seeing just be hilarious on SNL and, you know, be an iceberg or be, you know, Trey daddy, be like really the emotional core, the emotional center of this film. Richard Lawson: Yeah, that musical moment, uh, gave me a flashback to being in that exact venue in 2019, and perhaps having a, had a few drinks, uh, heckling the performance. I did not start the heckling, but - Rebecca Ford: Oh no! Richard Lawson: It happened. Rebecca Ford: You were the bad guy in_ Fire Island_? Richard Lawson: I was way in the back. I was having a bad week, okay. Chris Murphy: Uh, well, and also Rebecca, I'm going to _Fire Island_ this weekend. So if you want to come, you're invited. Katey Rich: I, a question I had watching this because like, it seems like fun, but also very stressful. And like that's what the power of this movie is that it gets into kind of the anxieties around going to a place like this. Chris, is _Fire Island_ fun or is it just about trying to like work out as much as possible before you get there? Chris Murphy: You did hear Richard does was that he was having a bad week. Um, and I've had plenty of those, but it is fun. It is, but it is like as much as it is a microcosm of the world, it is this weird place where every single person, basically, I'll say 96% of the people are queer people. You're right. It's this sort of like like-minded _Lord of the Flies_ esque place that is beautiful and gorgeous and unique. But also that comes with like, you're under a, it feels like you're under a microscope a little bit. So I would say it's like, it's not like a resort vacation where you're kicking it back on the beach, drinking Mai Tais, but it is this sort of unique- it's unlike any place I've ever been. And I haven't been to Provincetown or Palm Springs, so I'm sure those places are like that too, but, um, it's a weird it's I think it did a really great job of sort of capturing the essence of this, like really fun yet also kind of stressful environment. David Canfield: I watched it while in Provincetown, actually. And that was, that was enjoyable. Katey Rich: Like a 40 X experience. I wanted to shout out a Conrad Ricamora. I guess, hope I'm pronouncing his last name right, who is the, the Mr. Darcy character basically. And I knew him from _How To Get Away With Murder,_ which I watched some of, um but I knew I recognized him as soon as it started. And it's just like playing that role where you're just like stiff and mean for a lot of the movie and not betraying any emotion is really difficult. And I think he, he does really well and strikes up this really nice rapport with Joel Kim Booster. Um, he's very worthy successor to the, uh, Colin Firth, Matthew Macfadyen, uh, legacy. Chris Murphy: Oh yeah. He also was recently Seymour off-Broadway in _Little Shop_, which is a complete 180 from this film. So he really does have the range. Katey Rich: Looks great in glasses. Chris Murphy: Honestly, a slay. Katey Rich: Well, David, I want to toss it to you to pretty much kick off our pride month flashback series, which I'm really excited to do because June has always been this like interesting kind of like slow period in the Oscar season and a great time to look backwards. And this month for pride, we decided to kind of do a pride theme, um, Oscar flashback series. But the Oscar history with queer movies is really complicated and we'll get into it a lot over the course of the month. Um, but for our, um, Oscar issue earlier this year, David, you wrote about it's, it's particularly glaring track record with nominating gay actors specifically. Um, do you want to just lay out for listeners how grim this legacy is? David Canfield: Sure. I mean, I will say that this year broke a few of the bleaker streaks. Ariana Debose was a very groundbreaking winner for best Supporting Actress. We had Kristen Stewart nominated for Best Actress. She's of course engaged to a woman. So it's, I do have some hope that maybe these things are starting to change, but yeah, essentially, uh, in reporting out this piece, the thing that stuck out the most to me was the discrepancy between LGBTQ plus performers who've been nominated openly, uh, LGBTQ plus, which was, um, not many, uh, to have been nominated since Ian McKellen was the first and only man, uh, who's openly gay to be nominated. And by openly, cause this did come up a lot in the aftermath of the post, we don't mean people who are just outed and had to kind of live with that. Katey Rich: It's really complicated when you... David Canfield: It's extreme- It's extremely complicated and especially pre McKellen, you know, 20th century actors, it's just in a completely different environment. And you didn't have very many actors publicly living that way because their careers in many cases would end if they did. So it's hardly so simple, but there are several instances actually, of actors being outed after being nominated. It gets quite ugly, which we can talk about more. But anyway, so there were very, very few queer identifying performers nominated. You can count them on one hand. Um, and you can compare that to at least 36 performers in the past two decades who'd been nominated who are not LGBTQ plus, but were nominated for playing LGBTQ plus roles. And that to me gets at the heart of the issue of cis straight actors playing queer roles. Um, it's something we talk about a lot. I'm not someone who believes that every gay role should be played by every gay actor and so on. But when you look at that kind of gap, it's pretty undeniable who tends to get favored for those kinds of roles and who tends to miss out. Chris Murphy: Today, um, Aunjanue Ellis just came out as bisexual. So that adds as another, you know, a queer performer who was recognized, but I don't know if that even counts with what you just said, because this is after her Oscar- David Canfield: It does not count unfortunately. Chris Murphy: Doesn't move the needle. David Canfield: But still, I mean, the, you know, Elliot Page is another one who, of course we didn't know that he was trans at the time that he was nominated for _Juno_, but that they all of course contribute to this vibrant community of LGBTQ artists in Hollywood who, um, can't always initially identify as their true selves for various reasons. Reasons that we are and are not privy to. It's a stat that I think more than anything reflects the challenge, the ongoing challenge in Hollywood of being able to identify that way and receive the kinds of opportunities that their straight and cis counterparts receive and that's the ongoing issue. Richard Lawson: And I think in especially insidious part of that, that, you know, rears its head in an example, I think _Philadelphia_ is a great movie. I think Tom Hanks is wonderful in that movie. Ditto _Brokeback_ _Mountain,_ those movies were 17 and 29 years ago, respectively, which is not that long ago. And, um, they, one of the big selling points of those awards campaigns for those performers, Heath Ledger, Jake Gyllenhaal, Tom Hanks, was that it was brave, you know? 'Oh, look, they're they're, they're risking their Hollywood profile,, their identity to play these gay characters.' Uh, whereas the braver thing probably would have been an out gay actor doing that in those times, you know, even in 2005, like that would've been a big deal. So that language certainly I think is going away. But I still feel sometimes little hints of it here and there where an interviewer will be like, 'were are you worried about doing this,' you know, and I, I, that framing is really gross, even though it's been applied to movies that I think are great. And I wouldn't want a _Brokeback Mountain_ with different actors. I think it's perfect with those two actors. I think _Philadelphia _is one of Tom Hanks' greatest performances. And so it's not that I regret or wish that those particular films had been different just, but the way they were talked about was pretty bad. David Canfield: Yeah, I think it's definitely a particularly male problem to your point, Richard, in terms of the way we talk and look at, talk about, and look at masculinity, um, on screen and the notion of an actor going gay has long been an act of transformation, to go back to what we're talking about earlier. An act of bravery, it's at least been marketed that way. And yeah, this past year _Power of the Dog_ was definitely the, the example of, of a movie that was discussed that way. But I do believe the conversation around that kind of dynamic shifted. And you also had an actor, and Benedict Cumberbatch, who I did get to profile this past season, um, who was very thoughtful about the issue and very aware of how fraught and complicated it is and, um, you know, questioning even openly, whether he was perhaps the right person to take that role of Phil Burbank. So the fact that it has moved in that direction is I think a good sign. Richard Lawson: There is a cut of that film where Jim Parsons is Phil, right? David Canfield: And he's vicious. Richard Lawson: Very different movie, but. David Canfield: It's more boys in the band. Katey Rich: Do you, I mean, we've gotten to a point where I think with trans characters, in particular, has changed really fast the way that we would accept a cis actor playing a trans character. We think about a _Dallas Buyers Club_ and Jared Leto and how, or even _Danish Girl_ after that. Um, and how that just would not happen today. Do you, do you think, I mean David you said you don't want only gay actors to play gay roles, but do you think we're moving to a different place of what we will and won't accept on casting for these roles? David Canfield: Yes and no, it seems like while it is always a conversation and that's something that producers and casting directors have to probably factor in now, it doesn't seem like it's necessarily move the , the needle to the extent where it's like, we must cast a gay actor for this part in the way that it has for trans characters. Um, which I do think is a separate issue. And I do think trans people- that's very settled. The trans people need to play trans characters and there's no real wiggle room on that. Personally where we are in Hollywood and with more actors coming out, it's still a very slow, slow moving train. But, um, yeah, I would hope that at this point gay actors are considered more foremost for gay roles, but I don't know that that's going to happen necessarily. Richard Lawson: You, you look to something just to five years ago where it's like, nobody knew who Timothée Chalamet was, why couldn't you find like a 19 year old gay actor? I mean, he's great in that movie, but like, you know, it's the kind of thing where it's still happening. And I reviewed _The Prom,_ the Ryan Murphy debacle. And I kind of said in that, I was like, look for the longest time I've been like, I don't mind when straight actors, you know, Timothée Chalamet's great. Heath Ledger was amazing. Bill Hader in the _Skeleton Twins_, incredible performance by a straight actor playing a very credible gay man. But then I got to James Cordon in _The Prom_ and I was like, you know what? I've re-thought it. We cannot be doing this in until like the, that has been atoned for. We have to be auditing, you know. David Canfield: I thought that was such a humiliation on that movie's part. I couldn't believe that they did that. Chris Murphy: Abomination. But the thing that's sad or that I think is maybe finally changing not to bring it back to _Fire Island_, is that for a while, you know, 15, 25 years ago, there were no gay actors that were necessarily- not, no that's a big generalization. But there are not that many gay actors, performers that were high profile enough, or A-listy enough to sort of, I feel like land these parts in these movies. And I think that's something that casting directors and studios are always thinking about. I mean, we just saw like Tom Cruise just like saved the movies by being in _Top Gun_. We don't really have an equivalent of that necessarily specifically in movies, I feel, in the way that we have, you know, our Neil Patrick Harris and Jesse Tyler Ferguson in TV, and then, you know, our host of Broadway actors. So hopefully with the sort of, I feel like this wave of queer cinema and queer films and performance that are sort of rising, we get more A-listy talent that can, that studios are like, yes, lead this movie. Play this part. We don't need Timothée Chalamet or God forbid, James Corden. Rebecca Ford: I think the Greenlight process is something that's been broken for so long. And it's something that every time I talk to an agent or producer, you know, they have the same messaging, whether it's, um, you know, about this or about race is just like studios still think we need that name. And obviously there's a lot fewer opportunities for people to become that name. It's a sort of chicken and the egg thing. But I am curious what you, what you think. You know, I read that Aunjanue Ellis piece and, you know, she said, nobody asked her through the whole awards campaign about her, you know, she wore a jacket that said queer on it at one point and no one asked. And, and I'm curious because I feel like the language around this is changing so much. And does press even need to ask about that anymore? Like how that shapes this casting conversation. David Canfield: I mean, I'm sure Richard knows a few as well, but I mean, I can't obviously identify them, but there are several actors I know of in Hollywood who are queer and who don't live a closeted life, but who are not out and who have not been outed. And it's, it is it's to that point, it is a different dynamic because it's not appropriate to ask that question. And so it is, you know, their choice as to when they come out and, you know, lot of these actors have families and they come from different kinds of backgrounds. And because they are public figures, when they choose to come out, it is not to a select few, it is to the whole world. And so it's, it's a, yeah, it's a very different set of challenges I think. That also makes it challenging for us to navigate as people reporting on this because maybe those, those in the know do know, and they are casting queer actors and we just don't know it. But I did want to go back to something Chris said. If there's one strand of my piece that I would have followed up on a little bit more, if I had more time, it was something that came up a lot at the end, which was the generational difference. I spoke to Bill Condon who is openly gay and who was nominated for writing _Gods and Monsters_, which starred Ian McKellen, who was also nominated for that role. And he was in the midst of casting a movie with a gay lead character. And he was very open about how challenging it was to find, you know it's an actor of a certain age, middle-aged. And to find an actor who would seek help secure the financing who was openly gay, and he, it was a real priority for him. And he just, he was in the midst of it and he was very candid about how hard of a time he was having doing that. That is one aspect of this that I do think will result in meaningful changes. As we heard, like Bill Mark on his very sad rant the other week about younger people identifying words, LGBTQ, but you know, that is a, in my view, a positive development. And I think that that is where you'll see more meaningful changes in the fact that just a greater percentage of younger people, and thereby younger actors, are identifying that way and bringing that forward in their art and in their roles. Richard Lawson: Well, I, I think, yeah, looking, you know, to_ Rebel Without a Cause_, and reading about that film and how there's all this coded queerness and actors and off set, and Nicholas Ray, the director, like were known, you know, a sort of open, secret, bisexual or gay or whatever, we really shouldn't be doing the same shit that was happening 67 years ago. Like we come on. Like, there's a long history of this, but it's just at a certain point it's like, we can't rely on that. It's just how Hollywood functions, you know? Um, it's embarrassing that we're still doing a lot of the same stuff that was happening almost a century ago. Katey Rich: Well, Richard, you have led us to _Rebel Without a Cause_, thank you for your segue. Um, I was actually, so there's a Wikipedia page called list of LGBT Academy Award Winners and Nominees. And it is a crazy mess because it is, it's divided by category and then it has who's nominated and who was out at the time and what they were identified as and it has speculated to be LGBTQ and then a whole bunch of other people. And, you know, it's got people like Cary Grant and like who was been speculate about forever, and Marlon Brando who was, I guess, openly bisexual, but not at the time. I actually don't even know the story with Brando there. It's kind of nuts to just to tell you what a complicated web this whole thing is. Um, but in the supporting actor category, uh, Sal Mineo is at the top of the list chronologically, uh, nominated for _Rebel Without a Cause _in 1955. And his story of, he came out semi publicly in an interview in 1972. And I don't have a good sense of like how well known that was and I think what was an open secret to people in the industry or people who paid attention and what audiences actually knew is something that's hard for us to know at this point. But as you were saying, Richard, like _Rebel Without a Cause_ has been held up as this kind of paragon of 1950s filmmaking. It's one of the only three movies that James Dean ever made. But I don't think its place in queer film history had been as explicit. At least, like not when I learned about it in film school 20 years ago, but I'm actually curious if that experience for other people was different. Had any, have you known of this movie as, as something that was explicitly queer coded from the very beginning. Richard Lawson: I heard about it, but I thought it was just cause James Dean's hot. You know and I, and I knew that like there was some off-camera shenanigans happening in the production of it, but I'd never seen the movie until we, I watched it for this podcast. And watching it, I was like, oh, they meant that there's like really queer subtext in the actual movie, which I was surprised about and reading further about that there was sort of an intention to do more of it. But like the Hays code and everything was like, the studio was like, no, no, no, no, you can't do that. I think that's really fascinating that in that era, that Nicholas Ray and the actors involved were like really pushing an envelope in a way that I was not aware of until seeing the film. David Canfield: Yeah, I watched it for the first time in college. It was an assigned film for a history class on fifties culture, or post forties culture. And I went to a very small liberal arts school, so that aspect of the film was definitely brought forward in the way it was discussed in the lecture and discussion. So I did go into it with that understanding and I had also just come out. So it was a, it was, there's a whole lot going on there. And yeah, I just enjoyed the really lovely, palpable sexual tension between Sal and James. And also, yeah reading about it after the fact, because we didn't get so much into, you know, the way that it had been discussed in terms of queer theory and things like that. Um, but hearing the way Sal talked about it and this notion of like the first gay teenager on film was, was really fascinating to me. And yeah. I mean, it's, it's perhaps like cliche and an easy thing to say about a film like this, but yeah, it's, it's a fifties movie that you could apply to today in terms of the same sort of challenges that a lot of movies face. Katey Rich: And challenges in terms of like how to get an actual, like queer relationship up like front and center, how much if a hint at it? David Canfield: Yeah. I mean, I, I think all the time of shipping culture and queer baiting and, um, obviously that's so much more forward and present in the way we talk about pop culture now, but it's certainly there in a way where, you know, you can just like we have today and a lot of relationships you can draw as much as you want out of it. Um, and there's a certain degree of intentionality there, uh, as the filmmakers have talked about since. But especially if you're watching it then you really take what you want from it. Richard Lawson: I think it's something that works so well about the movie, even from a 2022 context, is that like for a lot of people who are queer when they're teenagers, everything is coded and latent and not spoken. And you're just sort of stumbling into discovery about yourself and maybe other people and, and, so I guess for me in, in a weird way, the only difference between now and then, at least as it's viewed through this film is everything around it. How it was marketed, how it was sold, the story that they told people they were telling, but in the actual world of the movie, that relationship between Plato and Jim feels like totally relatable to the present day. Um, and I think that's really fascinating that we have stuff like the recent, you know, Netflix hit _Heartstopper_, which is about a very much out gay kid falling in love with a kid who's sort of halfway out, out of the closet. And, um, that is definitely reflective of a more sort of open life that young people have now. But there are plenty of people who are not living that open life. And I think that is weirdly reflected in this movie that's practically 70 years old. Katey Rich: The way that Sal Mineo talks about, you know, what he felt while making this movie, because he was 16 when this movie was made. He was pretty much new to Hollywood. He'd been on Broadway and like, like many child actors, his career was pretty much managed by his mother. And he basically makes it sound like he was really sheltered and didn't have any sense of being attracted to men as he did later in his life. Um, he basically said- I'm filming this, the scene in the mansion where they're kind of all like, kind of cuddled up together, imagining their lives as being a family outside of the families that they have. He said, "I had no idea or understanding of affection between men and for the first time I felt something strong in that scene with James Dean." Um, I can imagine that he really was as naive as he says he was. I think he got very famous after this and it changed, but I feel like you see it on screen. You see this like kid, who's kind of figuring it out as this movie is being made of like what it is possible to feel for other people and other people your age. And that's, I think a real, huge strength of that performance. Richard Lawson: Yeah, it's basically, you could go into theater camp. Rebecca Ford: With guns and cars. Chris Murphy: I have to say, it's really, it's so sad what happened to Sal Mineo in terms of like, he was speaking openly about being bisexual, you know, in the seventies. And then you have to wonder like, if he had, he was, you know, murdered by... stabbed in the heart by a mugger and died when he was only I think in his thirties. He's 37. So to imagine like, you know, the types of roles he might've played or what, you know, what, what could have been, you know, the potential there and what we may have lost by losing him, and James Dean obviously, at such an early age is really, it just makes you wonder if maybe we wouldn't be having these same conversations about there are no, you know, queer actors in the film industry. You know, it just, it just, it's just so unfortunate and it's so tragic and it's, it's so sad that so many queer narratives and actual queer people reach these tragic ends. Ugh, it depresses me. Katey Rich: Are you ready for me to blow your mind? He, Sal Mineo and Ian McKellen were born the same year. Chris Murphy: No. Rebecca Ford: What! Katey Rich: So that's when it would have been. The casting of _Gods and Monsters_ could have been totally different. Chris Murphy: That's crazy. You see, that's exactly what I'm talking about. That's wild. Katey Rich: Yeah. David Canfield: Wow. And I mean, it's pretty remarkable that he was nominated as a teenager. He was like fifth youngest I think. He is the fifth youngest, which is really- given the role given the kind of movie it is, um, it's a huge achievement on its own. Um, so yeah, it is. It's really sad. Katey Rich: Yeah. I would love to know the behind the scenes machinations of how, cause you know, James Dean had made three movies and he had died right before _Rebel Without a Cause came _out. So by the time this Oscars happened, he had already died. Um, and he was nominated for _East of Eden_ and not _Rebel Without a Cause,_ but I wonder if there was a strategist who was like, this is the one he'll get nominated for. We don't want to compete against each other. Like all the campaigns that we ourselves talk about, how that horse trading might've happened. Rebecca Ford: Oh God. David Canfield: We need to find the _Little Gold Men_ of the fifties. Katey Rich: But, Sal Mineo and Natalie Wood, who was also a teenager, were both nominated for this and both lost. Um, well was I was reading the Sal Mineo biography by Michael Greg Michaud, um, and it talks about the 1956 Oscar Nomination Ceremony, which was a live half-hour televised event where the potential nominees were in the room. Um, and I have not been able to get more details on this. I need to look up more about it, but so Warner Brothers sends the people who they think are likely to be nominated, including Natalie Wood and Sal Mineo wasn't there because nobody thought he was going to be nominated. And he was like at home and he told Natalie Wood, who kind of called him to apologize that he was very happy not to have been there, but my God, what if they still did this? Could we- Chris Murphy: Bring it back. We need that. That would be so thrilling. Katey Rich: I guess people like attended because the studios made them, but like just imagine sitting there thinking, because you're like, oh, I might be nominated, then not being nominated? I just, I cannot imagine them pulling this off. Rebecca Ford: That also proves to me that there were strategists back then, because I like to imagine a world that there wasn't and everything was just pure and nice, but obviously that's not the case that still existed even back then. Katey Rich: Yeah. Rebecca Ford: What I found interesting as I tried to read old reviews from this time to sort of see if anyone pointed out this storyline and obviously Sal's role and there's a lot of praise for his acting, but I really couldn't find anything at the time where they, you know, really pointed out that this existed. And, and most of it, I found it really interesting because a lot of the reviews were just like, you got to hope that your kids aren't like these crazy rebel kids. You know and it kind of reminded me of the way people treated _Euphoria_ when I came out recently of like, look at these wild teenagers. And it's so interesting to see it now, because it just seems so tame compared to, you know, when you look at something like_ Euphoria_, but it really showed where it was hitting in the pop culture at the time. David Canfield: So there was no, you're saying highly touted, exclusively gay moment to bring us back to the _Beauty and the Beast_ discourses? Katey Rich: At least we're not, I mean, it was just going to say, at least we're not doing that anymore, but I actually feel like it has not been that long since _Eternals_ came out and it was like, aha. Well _Rebel Without a Cause_ is streaming on HBO Max. Um, I would really recommend watching, especially if you haven't seen it. I assume that those of us who did rewatch it or watch it for the first time also think it, it, it holds up in an interesting way, right? Rebecca Ford: Yeah. David Canfield: Absolutely. Katey Rich: I mean, it's, it's just kind of like a, a foundational, like Hollywood thing. And it's actually the only James Dean movie I've ever seen. So I think now I need to go watch _Giant_ finally. Which Sal Mineo was also in. So yeah, go stream _Rebel Without a Cause_ on HBO Max, and tell us what you think. David Canfield: Definitely melodramatic I'll say. Katey Rich: Yes, but also I think it's, I think learning what acting was. Uh, you know, cause James Dean is, you know, he and Marlon Brando were kind of credited with ushering in this new style of acting. And you can see it in this movie too, which I think is a really interesting like a place to watch a pivot between generations. David Canfield: Yeah, we were talking about Douglas Sirk before we started recording. I feel like pairing this with a Douglas Sirk movie would be a great fifties queer evening for you. Katey Rich: Our next year's flashback series. Let's do it. Richard Lawson: There's a great quote in a _Vanity Fair _piece about Nicholas Ray, where I think it's his, his former wife says that everyone said that, oh, James Dean was just copying Marlon Brando. And she's like, but I watched that movie and it's so clear he's copying Nick. Like, which I think is such a sweet sort of memory or, or re-interpretation of, of what James Dean's doing in the movie. Katey Rich: Yeah, there's a piece about Nicholas Ray, uh, from the 50th anniversary of _Rebel Without a Kashner_ written by Sam kasztner in 2006 that it's also really worth reading. Um, just about how this movie was made and how Natalie Wood was having an affair with Nicholas Wright and Dennis Hopper on the set of this movie. Uh, and apparently Gore Vidal said in his memoir, uh, based on, I don't know how many facts, that Nicholas Ray was having an affair with Sal Mineo. Anyway, it's a good read too. Richard Lawson: It involves a kind of sad anecdote involving the Cannes Film Festival as well. Chris Murphy: Full circle. Katey Rich: That does it for this week's show. We'll be continuing our pride flashback series with BPM, the 2017 French Film that was submitted for the Best International Feature, but not nominated, which we will talk about in addition to many other things. So catch up on that with us and join the conversation. In the meantime, you can find us@vanityfair.com on Twitter @littlegoldmen, and on our own. I am @kateyrich, and Richard... Richard Lawson: @rilaws Katey Rich: and Rebecca... Rebecca Ford: @beccamford Katey Rich: and David David Canfield: @davidcanfield97 Katey Rich: and Chris. Chris Murphy: @christriss. Katey Rich: Our producer and editor is Brett Fuchs and this week's award for the best description of the _Little Gold Men_ recording studio, goes to Chris Murphy. Chris Murphy: It's this sort of like like-minded _Lord of the Flies_ esque place.