Intro: "The world works in certain ways until a new great idea comes along and changes everything." "We need a name." "We?" "We live." "We dream." "We Work." "I'm Travis Kalanick, and I will never back down from a fight. And if no one wants to believe me, I'll make the believe by being undeniable." "These kids don't overthink, they don't get bogged down about the way these have always been done." "They want to change things now!" 

Richard Lawson: Hello and welcome back to _Still Watching:_ _Downfall of the Startups._ I'm _Vanity Fair_ Chief Critic, Richard Lawson. I'm here today with _Vanity Fair_ Audio Editor, Katey Rich. 

Katey Rich: Hi! 

Richard Lawson: And _Vanity Fair_ staff writer, Julie Miller. Hello ladies. 

Julie Miller: Hello. 

Richard Lawson: Uh, so for those of you just joining us, uh, this season of _Still Watching_ is covering multiple shows centered on a similar theme. People who had a big idea, got rich, and then took a tumble. Just a reminder that if you have any questions or comments while you're listening, please do reach out to us at stillwatchingpod@gmail.com, we'd love to hear from you. It can be a criticism, it can be a correction, where we welcome those, you know, or if you just want to send us a love letter. That's fine too. Um, so this is a, uh, an exciting episode because we are welcoming a third series into the mix. For the past two weeks we've just been talking about, uh, Showtime's _Super Pumped,_ about Uber, and Hulu's _The Dropout,_ about Theranos. And now we have Apple TV, uh, with _WeCrashed,_ which is about WeWork, uh, the work sharing, um, company and its founder, Adam Neumann and his very interesting wife, Rebekah Neumann, um, that show premiered on Friday. Um, all of these shows, you know, like I said are about a business, um, that we have heard a lot about in real life. Um, but the show, these shows offer us also a portrait of the personalities behind them. Um, I don't know. I'm eager to hear from you two, about what you think of WeCrashed, I think we'll start there just because it's the new kid in the class. Um, it's kind of more of a sentimental, sentimental human drama for me, um, than _Super Pumped_ is definitely, and maybe even_ The Dropout._ Even though in this episode of _The Dropout,_ episode five, we get into some really heavy emotional stuff. Um, Katey, I'll start with you. Uh, how do you feel _WeCrashed _fits into the tryptic of these series?

Katey Rich: Well, when you talk about it being sentimental, it's interesting because with _The Dropout_, you've got a convicted criminal in Elizabeth Holmes, and with, um, with _Super Pumped,_ you've got a self-described asshole in Travis Kalanick. And it's not that Adam Neumann and Rebekah Neumann don't have asshole tendencies. And I think as the show goes on, you get to see many more of those. Um, but especially meeting Adam Neumann in the first episode as this like striving hustler who just wants a project to succeed. And then Rebekah, as a Gwyneth Paltrow's overshadowed cousin, which we'll certainly talk more about. Um, you feel for them and you kind of get where they're coming from, even though they're totally insane. And I think these performances from Jared Leto and Anne Hathaway, which I love, I think really go a long way toward that too. 

Julie Miller: I agree. I, I was captivated because in spite of what you think of Adam and of Rebekah, I believe in their love so much. So it was oddly to me a little bit, like there's an undercurrent of love story there, um, which I was intrigued by. And that's, you know, in part, because of the chemistry between Jared Leto and Anne Hathaway. Both of whom have said that in, in talking to Adam and Rebekah, and learning about them, they, they really believe in that love. So I was struck by that. And I also like the idea that we're in New York, we're not in Silicon Valley for this one, so we got a different perspective, which I appreciate. 

Katey Rich: Wait, did you say that they interviewed Adam and Rebekah Neumann for this show? I realized I should done my research, but I didn't know that.

Julie Miller: Well, Jared... Jared tracked down Adam, and he wasn't going to tell anyone about it. He visited all the Neumanns at their home, but Adam and in an interview confessed the Jared came over, so the cat was sort of out of the bag, in that sense. But Jared Leto, did you know, has his own tech history? He was an early investor in YouTube and Airbnb, and was profiled by the, by the Wall Street Journal in 2017. He said he cold calls startups all the time, and is always hunting for that next acquisition, which is just a wonderfully interesting, you know, addition to his resume. But I thought that was fascinating. Anne was a little bit more, I think she implied that she had, maybe had a conversation, but she had definitely had conversations with people around Rebekah. She said she had a few mutual friends in common with her. Um... 

Katey Rich: The idea of Jared... a cold call from Jared Leto, sounds like something that could happen on _Super Pumped,_ if he wasn't currently on a different show, right? Doesn't that- 

Julie Miller: Oh my gosh- 

Katey Rich: -In a different world.

Julie Miller: I would love that story arc where Jared Leto appears on_ Super Pumped_ as himself. 

Richard Lawson: Or you, uh, some poor actor has to take on the unenviable task of playing Jared Leto, which like, how do you do that?

Katey Rich: Yeah. The energies can never match. 

Richard Lawson: Something that I think is so interesting about, _WeCrashed_ as it relates to these two other shows, you know, on _Super Pumped_, you have the brash, you know, macho kind of thing. And, you know, and I think that that's reflective of, of the show runners, you know, their previous work on _Billions_. Um, _The Dropout_ is a little more sensitive, uh, more of a kind of moral thriller in a way. And then _WeCrashed, _because there's- I mean, we're seeing, you know, Rebekah, especially in episode 3, moving into this wellness language, this spiritual language. There's something softer about it, which it doesn't, that doesn't mean that there's not like bad things happening. It just kind of is coming at it from a different angle. Especially as this company, as we see it on the show, and in episode two, uh, Adam has this lovely soliloquy at a JP Morgan event about like, "we're not selling you a work or something. We're selling you a life," you know, basically. And, and everyone gets sort of enwrapped by that idea. Um, and so I like the way that this show links into other trends in like millennial and gen Z culture, which is like that kind of woo-woo, sort of world, in a way that the other two shows don't. Because Elizabeth Holmes is, is much, much more of a pragmatist. A liar, yes, but like she wouldn't get caught up in all this spiritual stuff the way that, um, the Neumanns do. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. We've talked about the needle drops on _The Dropout_ already. Um, but _WeCrashed_ really has its share of them, and less like mid aughts, like Elizabeth Holmes and college, and more like MGMT, to put you in 2009. And I don't know if you guys felt personally attacked by those period piece markings, but I sure did. 

Julie Miller: I love in the first episode, aren't they listening to a song in the car and then the assistants all have it queued up once they walk into the office itself? 

Katey Rich: Oh yeah. 

Julie Miller: It's amazing. 

Well it's... yeah, and it's Katy Perry's, "Roar," and, uh, we saw _The Dropout_ last week where, um, "Firework" played a really major role for the Walgreens exec. So, um, is Katy Perry, the patron saint of these shows? 

Richard Lawson: Well, certainly the patrons, one of the patron saints of that era. You know, we're talking about the late aughts, the early 2010s. And I think that, you know, we're all in our thirties, late thirties, um, for some of us anyway. Um, and I think that, like, that is something really interesting that both _The Dropout_ and, uh, _WeCrashed_ do in particular, which is like, yes, it's about these scandals and these larger than life characters, but it's also just about like what it, in some ways felt to be cognizant of like media and tech and those, those huge burgeoning worlds, like at that time, you know? So it's about these specific people, but it's all about, it's more like, "this is what culture was sort of pointed at." And so you have to have the Katy Perry's or the MGMT songs to kind of score that because it really grounds you in, in that, in that sense memory, I suppose.

Katey Rich: Yeah. 

Julie Miller: Right. _WeCrashed,_ there's such unbridled excess. It's such a stark counterpoint to Theranos and Elizabeth's world, which feels so constricted and regiment. 

Richard Lawson: Well, cause there, their aims were different, you know? Like, I think it would be interesting, you know, we could talk a little bit about like, well, we can also talk about the performances, you know, because Jared Leto's doing a lot, Amanda Seyfried's doing a lot, and we see her, you know, she's really developing the performance in episode five even further. Like what do you think the motivations, how do they differ, I guess in your minds? Like, because they both kind of want to do a little bit of world domination, but, but maybe that that's sourced, um, in different places for them. 

Katey Rich: That's interesting because they do both have this wild-eyed sense of like, they'll look someone in the eye and be like, "I will change the world," and they mean it. And they convince people that they mean it. And their demeanors really couldn't be more different and, and you know, the way that they're running their workplaces, but it's maybe it's that desire to dominate the world. Like that's the Silicon Valley theme. It's something that Travis Kalanick on _Super Pumped_ has too, where they're just so convinced of their power and how persuasive they can be, and have this incredible success as a result of it. And for some of them, like hoodwink people into thinking they really know what they're doing. 

Julie Miller: Right, and Elizabeth, she was sort of micro-focused on Theranos, but Adam, at least reading about him, seems maybe broader in his delusions. On top of WeWork, he had all of these, he talked about wanting to become the President of the world, the Prime Minister of Israel. He wanted to live forever and was investing in these companies to extend, um, the duration of human life. Um, I guess he had more ambitions. More out of the box ambitions, maybe. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah, and, and they don't seem to have been, I mean, spoiler alert, sorry, but in, in your life, like they, now that they're out of the company, Rebekah and Adam, from everything I've read and including a piece in Vanity Fair by Rachel Dodes, like they haven't really stopped with that ideation. You know, like, like I don't think that this season of television is going to be about them like having to come to Jesus moment and learning that like, "okay, maybe I need to scale back my ambition." I think that does- it's actually a different story. Um, which is kind of interesting. And I, I love the way though, that, that Leto plays it is that like, and the way that they frame Rebekah as she's kind of our surrogate in that like we watch in the first episode is she sort of won over by him. And we, I mean, I'll speak for myself, I kind of was too. He's charming, even though I know that behind the scenes there was like, you know, a lot of sort of megalomania happening. 

Katey Rich: Oh yeah. 

Julie Miller: That's what's so fascinating, and if you read The Wall Street Journal's write-ups of him, even these executives who hated him, his management style at the end, couldn't help concede that he did have this, this special charisma and charm, and was incredible about motivating employees. Even if you know, his, his management overall was totally misguided. Um, whereas I don't know. It's just interesting again, then to flip back to Elizabeth Holmes and Theranos, and she's trying to cheer on her, her employees in a much different way. Um... 

Katey Rich: There's this? Oh, go ahead, Julie.

Julie Miller: Oh, no, no, go on. 

Katey Rich: There's a scene in the first episode _WeCrashed,_ and I don't want to just like quote all my favorite lines, but it's tempting to because there's so many good moments, but there's a scene that's really only in there to show you how charming Adam is where he's in the elevator with the neighbor, and he's like, "Hey, you want to come over for Chinese food?" And then just eats the guy's dinner and gets the guy to bring over to the beer and the soy sauce. And like, he gets absolutely what he wants and the guy's like, "okay, sure." 

Julie Miller: It's amazing. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. 

Julie Miller: And you read the books about him and that was a real life experience that helped, um, inform him of what he wants to develop with WeWork. He had moved into this Tribeca apartment with his sister who was an actual supermodel and was like booking photo shoots in Russian Vogue. And he couldn't understand, he had moved to America when he was 22, and he just didn't understand why people in her apartment building weren't friendly. So they really did start this contest about who could befriended more neighbors in the building. And she did win because she was a supermodel. But he said, or at least he was very good about incorporating that thread in his narrative when he would then talk to investors about how that was how the idea for WeWork in that communal setting sort of developed.

Richard Lawson: Julie, you've done a lot of, you've opened the door, I think, to sort of the not more, I'm not going to fact check, but I'm just sort of curious how WeCrashed, um, aligns with the, with the truth. Um, there's some stuff in this that this, these three first three episodes that like, like, like, like the competition about meeting neighbors. Like that's fascinating to know that that was actually real, but then you get to the third episode where they're at camp and this horrible successive series of things happens with Rebekah.

Katey Rich: But that didn't it look fun, Richard? That doesn't look like a good time to you? 

Richard Lawson: Yeah, I mean everything up until the listening session and I found an article from a New York Times writer, I believe it's Marissa Metzler, that was at camp in 2014. So, but it's not, you know, obviously she didn't go leave and work, go work for WeWork I don't think, so it's a lot of, I feel like a lot of that episode is maybe invented?

Katey Rich: I want to interrupt for a second though cause I did look at that article too, and there's a shot of a canoe full of beer that is replicated exactly in the episode. So there, there, there are some details that I know are real. 

Julie Miller: That's incredible. I read another, I think it was Wall Street Journal, they said that at, there was another retreat in London and they, the bartender was giving out free rosé, but not by the glass, by the bottle. He was just handing out these bottles. Um, it was incredible. And you, you look at the excess and all the tequila that they were spending, like as a line item in the budget, all that, I think it was 1942 tequila. Just, it was incredible, incredible excess. Um, I don't have more details about the exact retreat. 

Katey Rich: Um, I did find that I think it was in 2018 at a retreat where she said the line about a big part of being a woman is to help men manifest their calling. Um, and the Marissa Meltzer article you're talking about Richard is from 2014. So I think there's, you know, it's all true, but there's some, maybe some timeline budging happening there just to make sure- 

Richard Lawson: So she in fact said it much later in the WeWork. 

Katey Rich: Yes. Yeah. They were even more powerful. She said it. 

Julie Miller: But his drinking did get so out of control that he did pair back in later years at WeWork and they credited Rebekah with helping do a lot of that just because he was in full-blown party mode in the first part of that, that era. There's this story about, oh, in 2016, Adam had to fire 7% of the WeWork staff. A few weeks later, he held an All Hands meeting to talk about the staff cuts to everybody and sort of buoy morale after that. So he had this huge speech. I'm sure it was very charming and invigorating as Leto portrays all those speeches to be. And then everyone receives tequila shots that were passed out in plastic shot glasses from, um, from employees serving trays with trays of these shots. And again, this is two weeks after 7% of the staff were laid off. And as if that wasn't tone deaf enough, he then introduced Darryl McDaniels of Run- DMC to come in and play a set for staff. And some of these staff members are quoted as saying that they were just incredulous and shocked and confused, and then others just embrace the moment and were doing the tequila shots and dancing along. So I think, you know, there is an accuracy to the tone deafness and that sort of millennial excess. If that makes sense?

Katey Rich: I don't want to spoil the show for anybody, but we may see more of that moment in later episodes at _WeCrashed_. 

Richard Lawson: Ooh, enticing. Yeah. I mean, watching, you know, at this point with _The Dropout_, we are so far down the rabbit hole with that, that I don't really have to do the thought experiment of like, "would I buy it?" Cause like, I think really only the diehards at that point were, or the ones who had a ton of money invested were. But I think what's something that's so poignant about these first three episodes of _WeCrashed_ is that like, you know, the third episode begins with this sort of montage of this young woman who's a new employee and it's her going through like the, the, I mean, it's basically like, I don't know, a year in college almost like just condense where she's so excited, meets all these new friends, drinking, partying then gets tired and then becomes really burnt out and disillusioned. And then at the very end is kind of, buys back in. But I, I think they really were the Neumann's, at least as depicted on this show, tapping into, uh, a very common want at that time, which was like, I don't want to do the conventional thing. I mean, maybe it was hastened by like Instagram. You're trying to live a life that looks aesthetically pleasing. But like, I dunno. Do you, either of you think you would have been like into this whole scene because there were parts of it where I thought, "oh, absolutely not. I wouldn't want to be at that camp," but other aspects of it... I mean, I used to work at Gawker and there were some thing of that feel to it in 2008 or nine, you know? So I'm curious about how, how that, that reads to you, to you two? 

Katey Rich: Yeah. You think about like the loneliness of being young in New York too, right? About trying to find your place and, you know, and having a workplace that's full of people who look just like you. Um, and that post 2008, you know, culture from which WeWork comes where they're able to get all this, uh, really cheap office space because of the recession. People, a lot of people were just kind of searching around for something. I definitely think I would have been susceptible to it. And you know, we, I mean, Richard, you and I lived in New York in this period. Like, I guess we could've gone and worked for WeWork and we didn't. Um, so maybe, maybe we're smarter or maybe, you know, it just will change one thing in my life and I could have wound up there.

Julie Miller: Oh man, what a missed opportunity, for you both. I would love to see that sliding glass or sliding doors version of your, your lives at that moment. But I feel the same way to, to be in a city that big and to feel that alone, there is something sexy about being surrounded by people your age, and an environment like that. And Adam's charisma was, just seems so infectious. I don't know that I would have been able to resist. He would end these, these speeches to the staff saying that he wanted to really change the world, and end world hunger. And I can imagine being an impressionable 20 something thinking that, you know, it's, it's good. It's nice to be a part of something big like that. It was also, it was interesting speaking to Jared about it because he said that one of the key elements he was able to bring to the performance that he doesn't think maybe another actor would have been able to, was those communication skills from the stage. Because Jared has all that experience on stage, uh, um, singing with his band 30 Seconds To Mars. So he said that there was something, that to him was one of the most interesting and fascinating elements of Adam's appeal and charisma was his ability to speak to those masses of people like he's talking to them one-on-one.

Katey Rich: Can we talk about Jared Leto's contacts and what it does. 

Julie Miller: Oh, I would love to. 

Katey Rich: Because I think it's the, it makes a huge difference. And I think he's really good on this show, and like I had mixed feelings about him in House of Gucci, um, but I think the transformation really worked. 

Richard Lawson: It does. I mean, look, we'll just put it on the table. He is significantly older than, uh, Adam Neumann is at this time in history. Um, but I think something about the, you know, Jared Leto's inherent oddness, which he puts to great use in some things. And then in other things it's a little bit harder to, to, to get on his wavelength. But like that sort of outsider, big dreamer, odd ball, but, but, but with a warmth as sort of inviting, you know, charisma, um, is a natural fit for this. I don't know what Adam Neumann was like in real life. I've watched some interviews with him on YouTube and, and, you know, Leto's getting the voice right. The kind of bearing, right? Um, but yeah, but it does that, that look that intensity, those contact lenses, there's something really creepy about it, but also at the same time it's vampiric. It's like I've been glamored, you know? Like I recognize that the thing is bad, but then all of a sudden I forget that. And, and then here I am at camp, you know, face down in the lake. 

Julie Miller: I would be too distracted by the blueness of his eyes. So I sort of needed these shields, these contact lenses to shield me from that.

Katey Rich: And you think if he was as good looking as Jared Leto, even though Jared Leto was older, like he wouldn't have struggled so much in the early days. Like there there's, there's something about that, that paves the path. 

Richard Lawson: Maybe, yeah. And I, you know, I think that, that there, there's a kind of, there's an echo there with Rebekah Paltrow Neumann, where she's got this impossibly, glamorous, beautiful old, you know, older cousin, who's a famous actor. I mean, you know, and, and, and, you know, Rebekah Neumann is plenty of, you know, she's a pretty woman, but like, I think that something about Adam's confidence to sort of, you know, stand 150% in what he has and just let that be enough or more than enough, I think that must be a- that, that in the psychology of this show at least, like that's appealing to her because she keeps trying and failing. And here's this wagon that not only she can, she can hitch her star to, but the wagon is saying, no, no, sit next to me. You know, like how inviting for someone who's really been struggling to find their place, and especially in reference to, um, their cousin who... I was reading about when, um, when Rebekah Paltrow was at college, everyone on campus knew, knew her as Gwyneth Paltrow's cousin. And that, that, that, you know, that messes with you after a while, I would imagine. 

Julie Miller: And Gweneth has spoken about Rebekah, which I find so fascinating because Rebekah was born almost a decade after her three siblings, which I feel like informs a little bit, maybe, how she became who she is at least depicted as being in this show. So Gweneth said that she was, to her family, like this beautiful surprise princess. She was very much like a gift to the family and treated as such. So then to go out into the world as an adult, having been coddled that way and not treated, I guess like your cousin Gweneth, I could definitely understand the hurt in that. And Gweneth has also spoken about Adam. She said, "I adore Adam, but he's a handful. It felt like Adam could explode at any moment when Rebekah wasn't around," which I just thought was interesting. 

Katey Rich: Um, do we, is this where we get into detail about her, um, her Chekhov performance in episode two, which I just, I loved more the second time around. One of my favorite things I've seen on TV all year.

Richard Lawson: You are braver than me. So I had watched the episode a couple of weeks ago. And then rewatch it, so we could do this episode of the podcast. And when I got to that, I said, "nope," and hit the 10 seconds, 10 seconds, 10 seconds. Once was enough. I mean, that is devastating. Do we know what, did that actually happen? Or some version of it? I know she was a struggling actor and had made a couple short films on her own. But I'm curious about that specific production with Julie White as a director.

Julie Miller: I don't know about that production. I know that she filmed a feature with Rosario Dawson in a WeWork office. 

Katey Rich: Woah! 

Julie Miller: Katey, do you know, do you know about the Chekhov performance? I'll find this out. 

Katey Rich: I don't. I mean, honestly, I was just thinking about how with _Drive My Car_ at the Oscars, like he's just quite, quite a season for Chekhov. 

Richard Lawson: Definitely. It's true. 

Katey Rich: But I mean, the way like the, the Russian accent thing and the performance is its own level of cringe, but also her like her entitled swanning and being like, "oh, hello, I'm going to give you all this money to make your theater" and then," oh wait, you still want to do that? I'm over it. I'm moving on." Like it's so funny, Anne Hathaway playing a bad actor, cause I think she's a very good actor and this proves it because that whole second episode that's kind of, it's called Masha Masha, Masha. It's really Rebekah's episode like from her getting married in that purple dress, um, to that Russian accent, like this thing is so flawless. It's such a great, like, you know, villain arrival for Rebekah in a way. 

Julie Miller: I love the purple dress. I want to know if it really happened. I couldn't find any details, so if anybody who's listening was at that wedding, we would love to know. 

Richard Lawson: The million dollar check was real. I know that much, um, which is kind of fascinating, especially because apparently at some point in her, in Rebekah Paltrow Neumann crafting her mythos, she started saying that she would, you know, grew up, grew up off a dirt road and a sort of tree house kind of thing. And Gwenyth Paltrow actually has said in a magazine article about Rebekah, like, no, they, she grew up well off. Like Gwyneth Paltrow corrected the record on that, which is really interesting. But yeah, I mean the, the, the, the acting stuff, and then we see it again in episode three, where she's at the acting class, I presume in Los Angeles, and she's doing a scene. It doesn't work. And then she taps into this rage over an ex-boyfriend. And, but before that, when she's just doing the scene from the first time, Anne Hathaway is doing a really good job of playing someone who like isn't a good actor, but maybe in high school or even college was told, "oh yeah, she was pretty good." You know, like she's not, she's not awful, awful. She's not waiting for Guffman. And I think that's really hard to get right, and Hathaway nails it. Probably because she spent so much time from childhood on like in theaters. In local theaters, Papermill Playhouse, New Jersey, all that. Just absorbing maybe people like that, frankly.

Katey Rich: Yeah. 

Richard Lawson: So before we move over to a little bit of _The Dropout_ and _Super Pumped_, uh, Katey, you have an interview for us. Can you tell us, tell us about that? 

Katey Rich: Yeah, so we've been talking all this time about Adam and Rebekah Neumann, but there was a co-founder of WeWork we have not mentioned yet. And with good reason, Miguel Mckelvey, uh co-founded WeWork with Adam Neumann, and was really kind of like quiet... I don't want to say brains behind the operation, but you know, you see him in the show played by Kyle Marvin, you know, telling Adam to stop spending so much money and trying to handle Rebekah's PR crisis when she says that women are meant to support their husbands. Um, and he's such a warm, inviting person, and as I asked Kyle Marvin in this conversation, you kind of watch it being like, why is he in business with this guy? Like, what did he see in Adam Neumann, other than the charisma we all talk about. Um, so I talked to Kyle Marvin about it and he is fascinating because he is an actor, um, he had, but he also acted in, and co-wrote a film that was at Cannes in 2019 called _The Climb _and is currently directing the movie _80 for Brady_ with Tom Brady, Jane Fonda, Rita Moreno, Sally Field, and Lily Tomlin. So this guy's career is really going places. 

Julie Miller: Wow. 

Katey Rich: Um, so he's, yeah, I zoomed with him from his trailer on the set of that movie. Um, and, you know, talk to him about that, that very wide range of career options and, um, and about Miguel Mckelvey and how a guy like that winds up in this mess. So let's listen to it.

So, we're here to talk about the first three episodes of _WeCrashed _as they are all premiering at the same time on Apple, and we get through all three of these episodes and just this overwhelming sense of Miguel Mckelvey is this really good guy, and my question for you, and maybe the question of the entire series for you, is how does someone like him wind up with Adam Neumann in the first place? Did you come up with a good answer to that question for yourself? 

Kyle Marvin: Yeah. I mean, I think, I think the idea of success is intoxicating to anyone. And I think particularly when success comes in a partnership with someone else. You kind of assign the positive sort of way that things are going to either that person or you and that person together. And I think once you put your feet on that train, it's kind of hard to, it's hard to get off, you know what I mean? And I think it's partially about the fact that, like, we, we see all of these events sort of from an exterior view where we can sort of be judgmental or, or not, or whatever, and look at this at a distance. But sometimes when you're in those things, you don't really see it. You know what I mean? Because you're taking it incrementally until, you know, as the, as the series shows, eventually you really do see it. And by then, you know, you've really, I mean, you see what's coming, the train that's already coming right at you. And I think more of that, I think it's more that the ideals of what they were talking about, coworking and being together and community and love and partying and all that stuff, sounds great. You know what I mean? It really sounds great. But when you put that up against giant scale and you put that up against time, uh that's where I think things got a little off the road.

Katey Rich: Yeah. And I feel like the power of the show when we, especially in these first three episodes is your meeting Adam and Rebekah, and, you know, to a lesser extent, Miguel, because he does seem like a solid person, and you see all of their problems, but you're also won over by them at the same time. Like you see the power of charisma, it really it's, it's real, you know, people can get talked into doing a lot of things. And I, I like the balance that the show is already striking of, of rooting for them despite knowing the, the train that's going to crash at the end of it, right? 

Kyle Marvin: Yeah. I mean, I think that's the, that's the real interesting way to approach one of these stories. Cause it's easy to, it's easy to vilify these people. They've sort of already been lambasted by the media. So I think it's interesting to take a more nuanced approach to the characters and it's something that Jared and Annie, you know, built into their performance and it organically sort of fit in mine and then fit in the story as we sort of explored it. But I think it's the more interesting way to approach it. Especially for people who aren't, you know, as hip to exactly what happened in all of the, like details of the story. You can kind of get swept up and in those first three episodes, and sort of find yourself on the journey and only to find yourself sort of struggling as you head into those, you know, episodes four, five, and six. Um, struggling with the same issues they're struggling with, which is like, "oh wait, maybe this isn't what it appears." You know what I mean? Maybe there's, maybe there's other stuff going on, but it's not great. You know? 

Katey Rich: Yeah. What did it, what are your memories of this period of WeWork? I believe you were working at an ad agency at some point, maybe in the WeWork rise. So were- in the New York media, uh, creative landscape, was WeWork on your radar?

Kyle Marvin: I was, uh, oh yeah. You mean me personally? I was just thinking like Eric and then I realized, "oh yeah I actually was." Yeah, good job on the research. I was working in, I was working in, um, yeah, commercial advertising. Um, and so I was in production. I mean, it was definitely around and it's so weird because a ton of my peers had WeWork spaces. I mean it was sort of that space to go to if you were small and scrappy and like trying to do something um, particularly in LA, in New York. So I had, I've been in tons of WeWorks because friends had stuff there. I never, I never had an office there. Um, but yeah, I was, so I was very familiar with it. I wasn't as familiar with the crash or what was going on until obviously the news came out and then I was like, "oh wow, this was, this was crazy." Um, but, uh, I was definitely aware of it. I mean, it was part of the DNA of, of like young, startup sort of companies or like young professionals, you were one degree of separation from a WeWork. 

Katey Rich: Totally. How was wrapping your head around all the, like cause the details of the crash, especially are so financial and about like investments and, you know, I mean, I guess everyone can understand spending more than you make, but it is really complicated how it fell apart. And how, how was wrapping your head around all of that? 

Kyle Marvin: Yeah, I think it made sense to me once I sort of got the gist of it. I mean, my sense and I'm, again, I'm not an expert in the technical machinations of what happened, but I think the real, the real, the real shame of what happened toward the end was more so that everyone had invested their time and energy in the stock itself. And I think everyone's sort of put all their eggs in the basket of what that IPO was going to be worth. And it's, it's a dangerous thing to do because when your company's valued at $47 billion, all of a sudden your tiny little stake becomes a fantasy. You know, I have 0.0001% and I'm still making a hundred grand, you know?

So, so I think that that can get really intoxicating. Um, and I think that's why I think that's what really creeped into everyone's subconscious was like, you just started making up those fantasy numbers. It's like, what would you do if you won the lottery? Except it's, it feels very tangible. But it's really not tangible until an IPO hits. Until then it's all fantasy and speculation. And I think that sort of... and it's really intoxication is the right word. That intoxication that sort of seeped into the culture and seeped into Miguel and seeped into, you know, the other executives, really I think lead people astray, you know? And I think that, that people really got hurt in that. Miguel got hurt in that. Um, uh, uh, everyone sort of got hurt in that, when that started creeping into their personal dynamics and into their psyche. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. Um, so your background as an actor is really interesting to me. And I think for a lot of people watching the show, they have not seen you act before because you are not, you are an actor, but you're a lot of other things too. Um, and you had _The Climb_ as this kind of big, you know, Cannes success, and then the release came out during COVID, which I'm sure was very strange for you too. So were you trying to pursue other acting roles after that? How did that wind up? How did this wind up being the next step for you after that movie?

Kyle Marvin: Yeah, I mean, acting is hard, you know, and, and I wanted to pursue acting at a younger age and it just was not viable. I had a family and, and, and it just didn't work out for our situation. And I was trying to pursue work that, um, I could make money at, to be honest. So I got into commercial producing, and then commercial producing segued into, uh, producing independent features. And then that segued into sort of writing and producing, and then that segwayed into, um,_ The Climb,_ really, was the first time I had mostly been producing up until then. And that was finally a chance for me to cast myself and take a swing on myself. You know what I mean? And that, that was afforded me an opportunity that most people don't get, uh, which is to like get a shot at it, you know, be a lead in a feature.

Katey Rich: And so in a feature you have a lot of control over, you know. The movie that you want to make. 

Kyle Marvin: Complete control over, which is really refreshing and complete control in the outcome and the tone and how I perform and, and all those things. And that, that was really a luxury. And then, you know, I was pursuing acting, I was pursuing everything. We've been marching lots forward, we were writing a ton, we were producing other projects and documentaries, and we were still moving all of our yardsticks forward. Uh, but I was definitely like, "I want to act." And people were still like, "who, who is this guy?" You know what I mean? And even if people know who you are, it's still a challenging place to be, um, because it's just hard, you know, it's hard to get a job. It's, it's a very slim sliver of, of actors who get to perform at this level. And so, um, you know, I was pursuing it and not succeeding as, as most- or not succeeding is the wrong word. I was pursuing it and not getting roles as, as a lot of actors do. And, uh, and then this one came up, uh, unexpected. You know, I, I did an audition just like I do all the auditions that come my way, and then it happened to, you know, it happened to lead to a role. So I, I find myself lucky again, I think in this, um, in that it's sort of luck combined with, you know, obviously your talent and what you bring to the table, but there's always an element of luck, I think. 

Katey Rich: I mean, I did, I listened to a little bit of Miguel McKelvey, and you do sound like him. Like you, you clearly did more research than I do. Like, do you think that you- how much work did you have to do to really embody him? Or do you really think that there was a resemblance there from the start? 

Kyle Marvin: Yeah, I mean, there's a physical resemblance with helps, which helps. Um, and there's a sound resemblance sort of, which helps. I mean, I did different things during the performance. And to manipulate myself a little bit more to be in both his cadence and his register and sort of his jaw moves a little differently, so I would do exercises to sort of move my jaw differently. And I had a sort of a set of things I would do before I performed, um, each day to sort of oriented my physical space into his particular space. Um, but it did, I, didn't hurt. It didn't hurt that I was a tall, weird dude from Oregon. 

Katey Rich: I was thinking of the Oregon thing. That was fascinating to me because his origin story in Oregon, I assume he didn't grow up on a commune, but you know, that's a, that's a nice coincidence for you. 

Kyle Marvin: It was a great coincidence. I mean, I grew up, I grew up around a very tight knit community of mothers. So I did actually have a strange sort of the maternal thing really. I mean, my father was around. He worked a lot though and was gone often. So I remember being raised mostly by my mom and four other mothers who both had boys around the same age, in our small town. And we sort of became a click. The boys sort of became almost brothers to me. And so I was very much in line with sort of that orientation and could find pieces of it, if not as extreme as his, as his upbringing was. So that was interesting. 

Katey Rich: I mean, you're playing a real person who is a lot less well-known than Adam and Rebekah Neumann, and you're still clearly going through the efforts to really capture him. And I think you've been careful to say, you know, these are, this is the version of the story. This is not trying to be documentary truth, but what do you, what do you owe a person when you're playing a real person that way? How much time do you spend thinking about that? 

Kyle Marvin: Yeah, I, I mean the, the, I don't think it's a good place to be to say you owe anyone anything, because I think that's just a rough place to get as an actor. I think the best thing I can do was to sort of assimilate everything I knew about him as a person and, and represent that as honestly, as I thought fit for the role. So there is like, there are liberties. There's liberties taken in pieces of the script, which I was aware of, you know, because I understood my backstory, pretty detailed backstory. I mean, I built back a pretty detailed outline of exactly the, the chain of events and those kinds of things, and not everything lined up because it doesn't make for good cinema. Or, you know, you'd have to put 40 scenes in where it'd be better as one scene, you know? So there are, inherently in telling stories, you consolidate and you simplify, or you change elements to sort of suit your needs. And to me, I think that- I was more incumbent. I was more, I felt more obligated to play the character correctly then, then I did to try and find a sense of like complete authenticity. Because I don't think I could ever do that. I think that's, it's weird to say I can be another person. You know what I mean? Because I, because I will never be another person. I can only be, uh, an actor representing what I think that person represents in the story. 

Katey Rich: Can I assume you have not heard from the real Miguel or anyone else in the show has? 

Kyle Marvin: No I haven't. 

Katey Rich: Would you want to? 

Kyle Marvin: I always thought it'd be interesting. I mean, I don't know. I don't know if they want to talk to me. Um, I don't know what their sensibilities are with it, but I'm completely open to it. I mean, I, I find the whole experience of creating art to be incredibly thrilling and, and sort of a creative endeavor. And I feel like fundamentally they're very creative people, all of them. And I think it would be an interesting, it'd be an interesting conversation to be had. But I'm not pursuing it because it's, I feel like that's stepping outside of the realm of privacy, which I feel like... I would like to respect. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. So you make them, you make a movie,_ The Climb,_ it's completely within your control, pandemic hits, you're auditioning for things, then you wind up, you know, say on the set for the third episode of the summer camp episode with, it seems like thousands of extras. You know, it's still a pandemic, so maybe it wasn't really, but you know, as you, as you step into this role and the size of this production, like, what is that like for you having been making films as long as you have and been involved in them. What, what shift was making week crash like for you?

Kyle Marvin: Yeah, I mean, there's a couple things. One coming into it, just focusing on acting. I mean, and the other one I was at, I wrote it, I produced it, like really produced it and acted in it. So like my arrival to set would be, you know, at 5:00 AM and I'd be trying to figure out where to fucking land the trucks. I don't know if I can swear. I'm trying to figure out where I land the trucks, you know what I mean? And like I'm stressed out about that and being like, well, what's happening with art and we're missing this thing, and this is not what the frame looks like, and we can't lay dolly track. And then I was like, all right, now I'm acting. And, and, and that's like a crazy experience. And, and then, oh, I'm like rewriting lines and figuring it all out. And then when I was on this one, it was like, great. I, I got in, uh, you know, I got in a transpo vehicle and I was driven to this place. And I was, I had like, uh, a trailer, which is a novelty for us in independent filming, and then like move from the trailer to the set. And, and that I think was, it was just a different experience, you know? And, but it was nice to focus on just acting. You know, I showed up and I, all my attention, all my preparation went towards that thing. That being said, I was like, not at all prepared for the scale and scope of this. I should've been but like... when you, when you step onto a set that bit it's- I mean summer camp was insane. 

Katey Rich: I mean it looks crazy. 

Kyle Marvin: I remember getting on the, I remember getting on the van and then we were driving to set and we just insert, we just like entered this world. There was like giant pools and thousands of beer bottles littering the ground and like tents, as far as I could see literally rows of tents as far as I could see, and then giant town, I was like, what is going on? You know what I mean? And it was a little humbling. It was humbling there, it was humbling walking into the sat they built for the low, for the, for the actual office. You know, it's three store- I mean, it's two stories, but it's, there's a middle floor. And then outside, it's a three story waterfall with trees and buildings. Like it was just... the scope and scale of the thing was, was unreal. So it helped me in that sense, in that I had no choice, but to be like, one, I had to deliver. Cause I was like, damn, if I don't deliver... 

Katey Rich: It's really expensive to reset this take if I take...if I flub my line. 

Kyle Marvin: It was really expensive. And, and also, and then two, it was like, I just found myself lost in it. Cause I was like, wow, I guess I really am at summer camp. Like I literally walked around the set and I was like, I'm at summer camp and that really helped me get into it because I really felt myself in all of these places. So it was, it was a blessing all around, you know what I mean? 

Katey Rich: Yeah. So you're now, uh, in production on _80 for Brady_, which I don't, you know, I assume you don't want to talk too much about, but you're is this the first film you've directed directed?

Kyle Marvin: Yes. 

Katey Rich: Okay. Um, so how has that transition been? This, this, _The Climb _to _WeCrashed_ to this, it feels like a very fascinating transition to me. I'm sure in, in reality it's many more turns in that process, but, uh, what, what's that been like? 

Kyle Marvin: Yeah, I mean, it's funny because everything feels like it's all happening at once and it's not really ever how it happens. Like this has been in production and we've been working on this for five or six months. So like, it all sort of has been. It didn't all just happen at once magically. There was a tremendous amount of work put in on all of these things. Um, but it is interesting shifting gears. I, I, it's funny because everything informs everything else, truly. Like producing and especially producing independent film where you're very creatively involved in the process. It's not just the technical side of, you know, either the finances or, you know, the logistics. You're really involved in the creative choices of all these things. And it's so intimate and personal, I sort of got to learn from the experiences of other directors whose films I've helped make. Um, and that's informed how I, how I work. Acting has informed how I deal with actors.

Um, so all of the things sort of feed into each other. You know, this is, uh, this is a big production that we're on and, and so, and, and I'm... I feel like I'm constantly learning all the time to be honest. I try and really consume knowledge in real time, especially from other human beings, because I feel like there's really a tradition of, of passing on knowledge person to person that that is, that is really powerful. And it's not to say that I don't read books or I don't try and avail myself of how to do things, but there is always something to be learned. And so I I'm doing my best guiding this ship and helping my actors to their best performance. Um, while at the same time, you know, always learning and always trying to improve myself and the- my process and on how I create images, you know, and how I create performance. 

Katey Rich: Is there something specific you can think of that you learn, you know, working so closely with Jared Leto in this performance? You know, it's a, it's really transformative in a lot of ways, there's a lot of, you know, accent work and contacts and wigs, and either as an actor yourself, or as a director, you know, acting alongside someone who's doing that kind of transformation. Do you learn something from that? 

Kyle Marvin: Yeah. I mean, I think that, I think that there's a lot, there's a lot I learned from both Jared and Annie. I mean, both of them are consummate professionals, and the other actors on set. I mean, we were, the deck was stacked. We talk about Jared and Annie, but the deck is stacked on talented actors. 

Katey Rich: America Ferrera is coming for listeners who haven't seen the fourth episode yet, she's amazing. 

Kyle Marvin: You know, there's a lot of incredible, Anthony Edwards is there. I mean, the whole thing is incredible down to the assistants. All the assistants are like really talented, well healed actors. Um, so there was a lot to learn from everyone. I think, I think from Jared and, and Annie specifically, I think that the, the real discipline and dedication to the craft is like the level at which, the detail at which they would go into every character, in every choice, and the detail they demanded not only from the directors and the writers, but the other performers around them to align to those things.

But the detail they would, the detail that they would, uh, apply to those things are something that I really learned from. And it's something that I could sort of take across the boards is, you know, to feel, especially as a director, to make sure that I am equipped to answer that level of question. 

Katey Rich: Oh that's interesting. 

Kyle Marvin: That level of detail in a scene where they're saying, you know, the scene is simple. It's, you're having this one little conversation in a boardroom. But it's like what's the motivation, what's the blocking motivation, what's the, you know, what's the, what are all the characters sort of things and what are the dynamics at play? And, and, and really focusing on that level of detail. And I can't say I'm perfect at it, but, you know, just knowing that that's the level at which these professionals work really makes me, uh, made me in particular for this, up my game so I was as prepared as possible.

Katey Rich: Yeah. And then you go and work with, you know, Tom Brady, one of the most famous people on the planet, which is saying, I'm sure, an entirely different thing. 

Kyle Marvin: And Lily Tomlin, Jane Fonda, Sally Fields, Rita Moreno. I mean, people that, that who's experienced, I can't even fathom, you know what I'm saying? As performers and human beings, each one of those people holds treasures beyond belief in their performance and in their soul. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. Are you, are you surprised that this is where you've landed, you know, uh, three years since that Cannes? Like, does this, does this feel like a logical place that you would have wound up? Cause it seems pretty incredible to me. 

Kyle Marvin: Yeah. It doesn't seem logical at all. What is logic these days? 

Katey Rich: Well, it, if someone asks you what you do, do you say you're an actor, director, producer, writer. Do you have one clean answer for that? 

Kyle Marvin: I, I don't, I'm always confused by that question. I always just say I make film. You know, I make film and I'm doing something in there. Some piece of something in there, but it's, it's hard. It's also like I'm trying to be a little humble here. You know what I mean? I, I'm a novice in, in all the things you've listed in the sense that like my track record is just beginning. And I intend to, you know, I intend to be very successful in all of those things. Um, but a little me has to continue to stay humble until, till I get a little further along. 

Katey Rich: Uh, well, back to _WeCrashed_ for the last question. Is it, for people who've seen the first three episodes, is there anything that, that we should look forward to that you get to be part of on the show? Either, uh, you know, a big, crazy moment, like camp, or just a moment that you're proud of?

Kyle Marvin: Yeah. I mean, I, I really, like, I think it gets really exciting when, uh, when money starts coming in and before it sort of gets sketchy. There's sort of this playful wildness that seeps in and, and, you know, when you give young, wild, naive people, resources, things get a little wild. And, and those were some of the scenes that I really enjoy as a performer. Cause it was like we were just letting loose and stuff happened and, you know, we would, we would scream and things... it was just wild onset for those, for those episodes. And to me, that was sort of the most fun and then things sober up, which is also fun to watch. But as a performer, you know, things got very sober very quickly. Um, so... 

Katey Rich: As well, they probably should. 

Kyle Marvin: As they should. As absolutely they should.

Richard Lawson: Well, let's shift away from the Neumanns, uh, and head over to the West Coast. Um, in, in episode five of _The Dropout_ and episode three of _Super Pumped_, we see more of the wheels come off of more of the buses, I would say. In the case of _The Dropout_, which has, I mean the most emotional episode yet, I would say, uh, at least from one perspective. Um, you have an actual really serious consequence. Uh, maybe not exactly directly caused by Elizabeth and the con she's pulling, but certainly related to it. Um, I'm talking of course of, you know, incumbents, uh, dying by suicide, uh, in this episode. Um, did, did you both know that that was coming or was, did, did either of you manage to be surprised by this, uh, revelation?

Julie Miller: I remember reading a story in Vanity Fair, um, a while back in which they had interviewed Ian's wife and she, she spoke about the death and the, how uh, Elizabeth, um, didn't reach out after, except to have someone ask for the computer back and other, other property from Theranos. So I had vaguely recalled that, but this, this of course reminded me of that tragic, tragic turn. What about you, Katey? 

Katey Rich: Yeah, I had, I had spoiled myself on Wikipedia by accident, kind of watching the earlier episodes and I had read "Bad Blood," the John Carreyrou book, so I had just forgotten it. Um, but I think as this episode goes on, you kind of sense it coming, right? Um, knowing that, you know, this, the most sympathetic character on _The Dropout_, I think, and, and knowing that something is really poisoned from the root as Theranos, um, th they're they're incompatible and that, that was going to end badly and it it's so sad and really well, well played I think. 

Richard Lawson: You see, you know, in the third episode of _WeCrashed_ like this, this young woman who's going through the motion, you know, and she's, she becomes sort of the, one of the vampire victims, uh, of the Neumanns. And then here we have someone who's really closely associated with Elizabeth and with Theranos who, not exactly, she didn't do it on purpose, obviously, really, you know, demoralize him and, and, and alienate him. But like, she kind of has to step over a lot of people. You know, especially the people who start questioning what she's doing. And, um, I think the chilling thing is knowing that Theranos still move forward past, this is that it's going to affect her for a moment, but like, she's going to snap back into the con pretty quickly. And I think probably already has by the end of the episode. 

Katey Rich: Yeah, yeah. That moment of her with the finger puppet, you know, where she's, she has gotten so far ahead of her skis that she's made these ridiculous puppets for kids getting their blood tested at Theranos thing, which she knows thing doesn't work. And she's just kinda staring at that rather than dealing with this very real emotional consequences. I think it's, it tells you so much about where her head is and isn't in that moment. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah and we also see her meet with, uh, marketing people, right? And they're like, "Were, yeah. Okay. The company. Great, great, great. But we're more interested in you," you know, and I guess that's kind of where that whole cult of, public cult of personality started. Obviously within the company and with Walgreens, that people are plenty in, and her board of directors, they're already well and truly invested, um, under false pretenses in the Holmes' narrative. But now it's going to start more and more turning outward. She's going to be written about. And, and I, I'm really intrigued to see how that unfolds on this show and how we see them scrambling to sweep things under the rug and, and all that, because this is really when the house of cards starts falling is when there's just too much public attention on this. And it can't withstand that scrutiny.

Katey Rich: And it's interesting how she reacts to that moment. Cause she, she, I don't think she's being falsely modest when she was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like I'm not the face of this thing. I think she, she does feel uncomfortable there and you compare it to, on _Super Pumped_ this week where Travis Kalanick is like sitting in a waiting room at a VC firm and kind of like peacocking his way to, to intimidate all the other people. Like he is so happily using himself and his face and his hair to market himself and his company, and Elizabeth is not there yet. And yeah, maybe she never was. She had the whole uniform, but who knows how comfortable she ever felt. 

Julie Miller: I would love to get a psychiatry team to evaluate the psyches of these three founders. I'm just endlessly fascinated by what their breakdown must be. Just the, the, I don't even know how you, you survive something like Ian Gibbon's death and then pivot on that and run a company. I feel like there must be some element of delusion necessary to run a company and pursue a tech startup like that. But it's a lot. 

Richard Lawson: Well, there are also, these, these people are so good at compartmentalizing and rationalizing and just being like, "well, yeah, that was related, but, you know, but th, they, they, they snared themselves. They made the mistakes that..." you know, we, we see in _Super Pumped_ when, um, John Zimmer, the Lyft, one of the Lyft founders says to Bill Gurley, he's like, he keeps, you keep giving him ,Travis, these wins and he thinks he deserves them. And when there's one loss, he's going to feel like it's the end of the world and he's drowning, and he's going to step on you to get above, you know, get to the surface essentially. And like, we don't see Elizabeth doing that, that ruthlessly exactly. But like, she is still doing it because nothing can, can distract her or Kalanick or the Neumann's from the narrative. And I think it's, it's, it's really scary to watch. And I think in this episode of _The Dropout,_ it's like, I, for me, it was the pivot point of like, "okay, now I'm, I've moved pretty far away from, from empathy or sympathy, um, with Elizabeth." 

Julie Miller: Right? It's a real turning point. 

Katey Rich: And you've got William H Macy who is, uh, not more despicable than her, maybe, but pretty despicable as a, uh, you know, Fuisz the guy who's suing her. And how he just kind of gets, keeps getting punched down by David Boyce, who's eating Cheez-Its in that last scene, which I love Cheez-Its I'm right there with them on that. Um, but just contrasting those characters and you might've been rooting for Elizabeth before, but you, you see how she's crossed the line, um, and beating him at, by the end of that episode. And then Laurie Metcalf comes back in. Thank God. 

Julie Miller: Ugh she's the best. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah. What a wealth of respite to have. I have her back in. Um, but yeah, the Richard Fuisz stuff is funny because, you know, he's complaining to his wife and he's like, "if she'd only just asked me for help," you know, and it's a, it's a sort of more high minded way of... it's like, you know, the mafia guy walking in and be like, "a nice place he got here. It'd be a shame if it burned down." Basically he said, "oh, you have an idea. Well, I've not patented things. So now you have to do ball with, you know, play ball with me." And so, but he, of course, again, compartmentalizing can rationalize it away and say, "oh no, no, no. I was just, you know, here to be a listening ear and an offer wise counsel. And she slapped my hand away," which is not at all what happened or at least what we saw happen earlier on the season. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. 

Julie Miller: Knowing that that ability to compartmentalize and to sort of manipulate people, I again, would love to see a reality show where you put these tech founders on an island together and they somehow have to battle it out. But I would just love to see them interface with each other and in any, any scenario. 

Richard Lawson: Oh, fully. And I think that's, what's really kind of, you know, the, I, for me, the most electrifying part of this week, _Super Pumped_ was this tet a tet between Kalanick and Zimmer and then Zimmer and Gurley where, because we're so in the Uber bubble on this show, we know this episode is really concerned with Lyft, but we're still in the inner sanctum of Uber. We're still, still following Travis around. And then to have another big time, tech entrepreneur enter the picture and they actually dialogue with one another. And we're able to point to one and say, "I think he's a little better." Is really fascinating. So I fully endorsed the tech billionaire survivor, Julie, that you've just pitched.

Julie Miller: Perfect. 

Katey Rich: Although credit to the other moment is _Super Pumped_ where he meets with Larry Page at Google, and it's like this highly anticipated meeting and it's, um, Ben Feldman, "I hate Ginsburg" from Mad Men is how he will always live out of my heart in a really wild wig. Uh, that seems very true to life. Um, who's, you know, silent throughout this entire meeting, basically, until he decides to talk and you see Travis kind of on the back foot, which is not a common position for him and really trying to win this guy over. I think that brings out a more interesting aspect of his character, if not necessarily someone who we want to root for in that scene. 

Richard Lawson: Well, because even people like that have a hero, you know, there, there is someone above them, you know, for, I, I don't know that Travis is so single-minded like Elizabeth is. Like she's Steve Jobs, that's her, you know. I love that scene in _The Dropout_ where she's like, you know, "since we lost him." And they're like, "did you know him?" And she's like, "well, no, not personally." You know, um, Travis might not have exactly that one hero, but certainly a Larry Page, you know, who is worth, I just, I looked it up, over a hundred billion dollars at this point. Um, would be someone he would be, uh, willing to prostrate a little bit in front of, you know. Um, he's not, but, and then of course then I don't know, maybe I'm reading too much psychology into this, but then because of that and, and riding high on the, the, the, the fact that it worked. They got this huge investment from Google ventures. Then turning and really slapping down his puny competitor. You know, I, I think those are really connected on, on the same short line. 

Katey Rich: I'd go work for Lyft.

Julie Miller: Are we going to get to see Amanda Seyfried, Joseph Gordon Levitt, and Jared Leto have a conversation together, a Round Table about playing these, these entrepreneurs. I would love to see that. 

Katey Rich: I mean, we do work at Vanity Fair and Vanity Fair gets very, uh, frequently shouted out later on in WeCrashed, so, um, are we giving ourselves this assignment to make this dream come true? 

Richard Lawson: The real trick is to get them all together with the actual people. And see how that plays out. We'll start with the actors and then slowly introduce the real folks, and then all six of them can have an insane conversation with each other because... 

Katey Rich: We wait until Elizabeth Holmes finishes her jail sentence and then we'll, um, we'll get there. 

Julie Miller: Who would you trust the most with your investment?

Katey Rich: Ooh, I guess Uber is the one that is still solvent. You know, I mean, I guess WeWork is still solvent too, but throughout some, some weird crashes in there. What about you? 

Richard Lawson: But I think the thing about that, that's a good question, Julie, because we've seen now three episodes, and really in this episode where Gurley now is on the outs. His access card has been shut off because he had the temerity to like, not even go rogue, but just sort of speak autonomously about his own knowledge set at South by Southwest and say, you know, we're going to have some dead unicorns. Like we've seen routinely that Travis is awful and really difficult to, uh, be, you know, even amicable business partners with, because he's, you know, an egomaniac who flies off the handle and all that stuff. And, and, and so, I dunno, I find myself being like, "wait, why would anyone do business with him?" And the thing is because they did have provable growth. You know, Uber for all of its sins, and, you know, certainly one of those big senses is how drivers are compensated, was on a path to genuinely returning investment to people. You know, whereas the other two, WeWork, which is still functioning, but like was operating at a massive loss for a long time, and I think probably instill is, um, and obviously Theranos was just, you know, a complete snake oil thing. So yes, it, it, it, when, if push came to shove of those three things, that Uber, like, you know, even though Travis is an asshole, like he'll, he would make me money, I guess. 

Katey Rich: Julie does make you glad you're not super wealthy and don't have a hundred million dollars to give to any of these people. 

Julie Miller: I mean, I guess there, that gives me one, one perk to not being super wealthy. Yeah. I, I mean, I don't, that's one problem I don't have to deal with, but it is just interesting to me that these investors like, Bill Gurley, have to evaluate, and again, they are seeing the growth of these businesses, but evaluating these people and these personalities based on just gut. Even though, you know, they're dealing with billions of dollars. There's something so incalculable, incalculable or inmeasurable or what they have to do engage and all three of these personalities. 

Katey Rich: Oh, here's another question for you guys. What do you think would happen if, uh, Elizabeth Holmes's brother, Christian, who went to Duke, I don't know if you heard him say that he went to Duke. Uh, what if he met Travis Kalanick? Like who, who would come out of that room alive? 

Richard Lawson: Oh boy. Well, I think he'd come out like you know, Kalanick's like Igor or something... he would be fully in his thrall and, uh, that would be that. Um, yeah, the brother, is sort of suddenly introduced like that on _Dropout_ which was funny. I kind of liked that because it reflected the way that maybe people at the company would be like, "wait, who are you?"

Katey Rich: Yeah. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. And it's interesting watching her making it a family affair, especially because she knows this is all a house of lies and she's willing to bring people into that. Whereas the Neumann's, you know, uh, Adam's sister's there. Obviously, you know, Rebekah are married and she's getting involved. Like they, they're buying it. You know, they believe it. Whereas Elizabeth, I can't really, I mean that that's a real cruelty is to ensnare your unsuspecting, albeit you know, a little bit obnoxious brother into this whole fiasco. 

Katey Rich: Well, and it also hits toward the one, another real tragedy of Theranos coming up, you meet Tyler Schultz, Joel, George Schultz's grandson who takes a job at Theranos. Again, spoilers for real, real life, but winds up being one of John Carreyrou's big sources in his kind of landmark piece that took down Theranos. And that, that was a family riff that never really healed. Um, so I'm, I'm interested to see how much Tyler we get as that story kind of unravels.

Julie Miller: Right. He goes up against this grandfather, right? 

Katey Rich: Yeah. Yeah. And his grandfather died relatively recently and they, you know, kind of never resolved it. It's sad. 

Julie Miller: Right, and Tyler wanted to speed up Carreyrou's reporting because he wanted his grandfather to have a chance to reclaim his, uh, his reputation after the company went down. Um, so it was sad. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. And that, that scene where, you know, Tyler comes in and is such an eager sort of fan boy, you know, um, and you're thinking, "oh, how nice this young man is like really excited to meet this woman that he had, you know, idolizes," which unfortunately, you know, horribly doesn't happen often enough, uh, in, in, in the world. And, uh, and there's this paternal thing between, or between, you know, the Shultz's, but also toward Elizabeth and it's, uh, it is a personal scene. It's a family scene. It's not a business scene and yet they're also interlinked. And then everything goes awry. And all the while, Elizabeth knows that our machines are exploding and they're going to break into the Siemens machine and steal her tech essentially. Uh, and yet these, she just allows these things to happen because this is part of the narrative, just as the finger puppets are. 

Katey Rich: You see that great moment at the end where she's convincing herself of it, um, where she's like, "it's just as phase one. It's phase one. We're just going to do it for now." And I think to me, that's the most convincing argument for why she let it go on so far is that she had fooled herself into thinking that they were just going to do it for now, and then it was all going to work someday. Um, and I like watching that delusion build over time. 

Julie Miller: Right, incrementally. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. I mean, and it's similar to _WeCrashed_ where, you know, a soul like tech thing where it's a website or an app or whatever like that, you know, that is of that world, but like the big mistake, one of the huge mistakes that Elizabeth made was getting into the medical industry. One of the big mistakes that the Neumann's are making is getting into real estate. Those are old, not fixed necessarily, but those are whole other systems that they don't really know anything about and yet are trying to manipulate. So if only these, these, you know, charismatic weirdos had just decided to build an app. I mean, one of them probably wouldn't be going to jail. And the other, I don't know, I guess the Neumanns are still printing plenty of rich, but he might still have this company, I guess. 

Julie Miller: Right. Or if, if the new ones have not tried to sell it as more than a real estate company and claim that it could change the world. If they had just been fine operating within that box, maybe, maybe. 

Richard Lawson: Well, right. If the wing starts talking, you know, about world domination, then we should worry about that. But so far other, minus some controversies, very valid ones, you know, other coworking spaces seem to be doing just fine without this larger messianic purpose behind them. 

Katey Rich: Even though WeWork is probably still, you know, it's the Kleenex of coworking space. You, you go to a WeWork, even if it's not a WeWork. 

Richard Lawson: Exactly. Yeah. Well, so I guess, I guess they won in the end. 

Katey Rich: They accomplished something.

Richard Lawson: Well, I think we have covered these three up, these well, five episodes, uh, pretty well unless um, anyone does- Julie do have any more weird facts or did we, did you get, uh, all your dirt out? 

Julie Miller: The one thing I was going to mention is that when Gwenyth Paltrow won her Oscar, she partially dedicated it to Rebekah's brother who died of cancer. 

Katey Rich: Woah! 

Julie Miller: I did not know that. So I have to go back and watch that Oscar speech. 

Katey Rich: Twist my arm to watch someone, someone's old Oscar speech, any day. 

Julie Miller: But I think that was my best- 

Richard Lawson: The Gwyneth thing is so wild. It's just like, you couldn't write that, you know. You couldn't make that up. Like it, it's just such a perfect, it's not even a detail. It's a huge facet of this whole person, uh, in a strange way that it's just, it, it works beautifully in a show. And I think it's funny watching Anne Hathaway, like pretend she's not a famous movie star too. 

Julie Miller: It totally informs who she is, and also if, you know, Friday when Friday comes along, Vanity Fair, Savannah Walsh is publishing a piece about Gwyneth and Rebekah's relationship, so definitely check out vanityfair.com for that. 

Katey Rich: Yeah, and credit to the, um, to the writers and the creators of _WeCrashed_, uh, um, Drew Crevello and Lee Eisenberg created the show. Um, the way that they incorporate Gwyneth, a little bit in that first episode, but in the wedding episode of people just saying, "Is Gwyneth coming?" and she gets increasingly impatient. It's just so, there's so many things you can do with that information, and I think they, they deploy it just the right way on the show. 

Richard Lawson: All right. Well that does it for this episode of _Still Watching: Downfall of the Startups. _Katey, Julie, thank you for being here. Uh, Katey, where can people find you when you're not on this podcast?

Katey Rich: Well, I'm a lodging a production of _The Seagull_ in a warehouse space down the street, but only for a couple more weeks, so please catch me there. 

Richard Lawson: And you're playing all the characters, is that right? 

Katey Rich: Yeah. Yeah. All of them. And in the original Russian, which I don't know yet, but I'll, I'll have it down by opening night. 

Richard Lawson: Eh, you'll figure it out. 

Katey Rich: Um, you can also follow me on Twitter @kateyrich. 

Richard Lawson: And Julie, how about you?

Julie Miller: I am on Twitter @juliewmiller. Also, by the way, we didn't even talk about Jared Leto, how he calls her baba ganoush. I love the pet names, but we can get into that on different, different episodes. 

Katey Rich: That's your Twitter handle. 

Richard Lawson: All right change your Twitter handle to @babaganoush. Well, I am @rilaws, I of course do run a summer camp up in the Adirondacks if people want to come. Uh, it's just me drinking a lot alone. So, you know, I'd love the company. 

Katey Rich: From out of a canoe. 

Richard Lawson: But bring some Thai food and some soy sauce. Um, this episode was produced and edited by Dave Gonzalez. Uh, and until next week, happy investing .