Katey Rich: Hello, and welcome to _Little Gold Men_ the award season podcast from _Vanity Fair_. Intro: "It's such an honor to present this next award." "And here are the nominees." "And the Oscar goes to..." "And the Oscar goes to..." "And I can't deny the fact that you like me. Right now, you like me." "I'm the king of the world!" "There's a mistake, _Moonlight_, you guys won best picture." Richard Lawson: I'm Richard Lawson and I'm here today with Rebecca Ford. Rebecca Ford: Hi. Richard Lawson: And David Canfield. David Canfield: Hello. Richard Lawson: Well, we three future festival goers have a lot to talk about today because the Venice Film Festival has announced its full lineup. Uh, while Toronto, which happens basically a week later, keeps adding to their roster. I don't know... the, the Toronto strategy this year has been interesting. It feels like they're announcing one big title every two days. Um, and later in the episode, we'll talk about the _Black Panther _trailer, or_ Wakanda Forever_ rather, uh, trailer that came out of Comic Con over the weekend. Uh, and we'll have a spoilery discussion of the film _Nope_, which opened last Friday. Um, so if you don't wanna hear spoilers, you can just end the episode after we talk about _Wakanda Forever._ But yes, uh, film festival announcements have happened. The big one from Toronto at the end of last week was _The Fabelmans_. Were you two as surprised as I was to hear that this is a Toronto world premiere? David Canfield: Shocked. Rebecca Ford: Yep, definitely shocked. David Canfield: He's never been, for one thing. Rebecca Ford: Yeah. It feels like they're doing something different with this one. You know, we have all heard, this is a much more personal story for Spielberg, and so I think they're gonna take a whole new path for how they introduce this film to the world. And, and this is a huge deal for Toronto. Richard Lawson: Yeah. It's a huge deal for Toronto. I mean, Spielberg, the last movie he had at a film festival was I believe _The BFG_ out of competition at Cannes. Rebecca Ford: Oh yeah, I remember that. Richard Lawson: But other than that, he really is not a festival filmmaker. David Canfield: No. Richard Lawson: Like he, he'll have something that comes out at the end of the year that premieres on its own, separate of any festival or anything. And then, you know, his, his blockbuster movies, you know, those are summer spring movies. Uh, so this is interesting and, and for people listening who aren't maybe as intimately familiar with the, the sort of undulations of these film festivals as we are, Toronto is the biggest one and it gets a ton of movies, but a lot of times those movies have already premiered at Venice or Telluride. Um, it's rarer to get a movie of this stature that world premieres at Toronto, but it's not unheard of. Uh, especially when you consider films like _Belfast _or _Green Book_, which are movies that are sort of engineered, if you wanna be cynical about it, to win that coveted People's Choice Award, which is oftentimes a great precursor to, uh, Best Picture Nomination. David Canfield: Yeah. I think that's definitely a boon to the campaign already is it's Stephen Spielberg movie in Toronto, so it's gonna have a bit of a leg up there. I remember _Lincoln_ premiered at the New York Film Festival. Richard Lawson: Yes, right. Okay. David Canfield: And I think generally the move broadly makes sense for the movie to make a festival play because of exactly what Rebecca said, it is not of the usual scale and commercial appeal of a Steven Spielberg movie. Including just last year's _West Side Story_, which did pretty well awards wise without going to a festival. It was a Best Picture nominee and what an acting Oscar and all that. Yeah, I do also think it's partly... there does seem to be some momentum behind Toronto having a really big comeback year. Like you've also seen stuff like _Knives Out_ two which is called _Glass Onion._ And _The Woman King_ with Viola Davis and a really great supporting cast from Gina Prince- Bythewood that feel like really classic TIFF premieres. Big commercial movies that also really could use that festival kickoff, um, and having the combination of those with these more specialty TIFF premieres, still have great starry casts and all that, but feel more in the Telluride, Venice vein. And then you're gonna also surely have a lot of Teluride/ Venice films that have already premiered. Like you were saying, Richard, um, you can have a really, really strong slate after two years of Toronto kind of playing at best, uh, second fiddle to those, uh, Labor Day weekend festivals and premieres. Richard Lawson: Yeah, I mean, Toronto has- it serves a great function in, in the, you know, the film calendar every year, but because it's the most attended festival, it is in a lot of ways, the most accessible given that it's in a city that's close to New York, close to a lot of American cities. Um, not a terribly long flight from Europe. It's always had a really important function, but it had, I think, been losing a bit of its identity as Venice got bigger and bigger in terms of, you know, I don't think that the Venice festival programmers would describe themselves this way, but, or their own festival this way, but like, it has become the sort of most important clearinghouse for the Oscars, um, increasingly, as well as some big commercial fair here and there. So to have all these world premieres, especially a Steven Spielberg memoir piece, that feels really significant. Though one could, on the flip side of things, say, is this an indicator that it's maybe very broadly populous, like _Belfast_,_ Green Book_ or whatever. You know, is it, is it, is it maybe not as arty or elevated, I guess as some of us would hope. I mean, maybe that's kind of a snobby thing to say, but like that is some of the whispers I've been hearing since that announcement. David Canfield: Yeah. I thought of that too. Richard Lawson: Yeah. I mean, it, it might just not be the movie that I expected it to be given, I mean, we, we don't know really much about it. We know who's in it. I keep hearing that like Michelle Williams is gonna be the big Oscar hopeful for that. But, um, beyond that, I mean, everyone's gonna find out in Toronto, which I think for that, festival's very exciting and it's a much bigger platform than, I think, a kind of more private, you know, December premiere would be. Rebecca Ford: Yeah, I think you're right. There's so much expectation built up around that one for a film that we know, not that much about and have seen nothing of, but I, I think you're right. There's a, there's definitely a lot of pressure on it to perform and that could of course lead to a little disappointment if it's, if it's not what we think it's gonna be. Richard Lawson: Yeah, the People's Choice award is it's to lose at that point, at this point. Rebecca Ford: Yeah. Richard Lawson: So if it, if anything but victory there is a disappointment I think. Um, well, speaking of films that we don't know, well, I mean, it's kind of a very, we know, we know a lot about let's say _Blonde_, the Andrew Dominik, Marilyn Monroe adaptation. Well, we know enough about it, I guess. We know about Darren Aronofsky's, _The Whale._ I'm, I'm talking about all the movies that have been announced as Venice Film Festival premieres, uh, which is quite a hardy lineup this year. Rebecca, what jumped out to you most? Like what, what, what are you most excited to see the reaction to? Rebecca Ford: Well, David and I did a little analysis of this lineup, which is on the site now. And, and I feel like I'm so excited about it. I, I think they have so much that I'm really, um, hopeful for, uh, the couple that stands out to me, obviously, um, Todd Field's first film in 15 years, is a big deal. And also speaking of high expectations, I think has those and then I'm really curious about the Aronofsky um, film, _The Whale_. I, I just think it's kind of an embarrassment of riches when we, when we look at this lineup. Richard Lawson: Yeah, the, the, the Todd Field film is called _Tár_. It's a biopic, I believe of a orchestra conductor, uh, played by Kate Blanchett. And they, on Monday of this week, released a odd little teaser trailer for it. That is of- did any of you see_ Manifesto,_ which was this kind of traveling video art project that Kate Blanchett did, uh, and then they turned it into a film that I think you could see in theaters? David Canfield: Yes. Richard Lawson: It had that sort of slowmo arty vibe while there's this voiceover narration about God? And obliteration, and I, I, I don't know it was, it, it, it, it doesn't really give you a sense of what that movie's gonna be until the last seconds of the trailer, in which you see Kate Blanchett wielding a conductor's baton mightily and, you know, so I'm, you know, this is a guy Todd Field who has not made a movie since _Little Children_, which was what, 2007? David Canfield: 2006 I believe. Richard Lawson: 2006, so even longer. And then previous to that he had _In The Bedroom._ He's really only made those two films. There's been stuff rumored in between, um, 2006 and now, most notably I think an HBO adaptation of _Beautiful Ruins_, the novel that, that never came to be. So, yeah, I, I, I agree that one is probably, I didn't think that was gonna be there. Maybe I should have, but, um, I'm very excited about. David Canfield: Yeah. That 90 minute trailer or however long it was would've fit quite cleanly into the_ Manifesto._ Yeah, it was, um, it was also a reminder that this is a Todd Field movie. He is kind of known for trailers like that and I was, very surprised and very excited by it. Um, yeah, once they put something like that out, you can pretty much guarantee that the, the festival campaign is up and running. Yeah. I think there's a lot of performances to be on the lookout for as ever. That being one of them, uh, Florian Zeller is back with _The Son_ following _The Father._ Will the _Holy Ghost_ be next? Stay tuned. Um, this one stars Hugh Jackman, Vanessa Kirby and Laura Dern uh, so two Oscar nominees and an Oscar winner. And he writes very rich material for actors generally in his, uh, theater work. And as we know from his last film, his film work as well. So that's one that I think could definitely kickstart a few races at the very least. And Netflix, once again has a pretty hefty slate here. I think they've got two of the most anticipated movies of the fall. Little new movie from, uh, Alejandro Iñárritu, uh _Bardo._ It's got another double title, like _Birdman_, _False Chronicle of a Handful of Truths. _ Richard Lawson: He needs to stop doing that. Rebecca Ford: We're just calling it Bardo guys. We're not, we're not saying it anymore. David Canfield: This is the only, this is the only time. Rebecca Ford: Yes, we will never say that again. David Canfield: Yeah. Well actually, _Tár,_ the style is it has the accent on the a and it's all capitalized, Richard, so , I'm not sure how we're gonna deal with that one. Richard Lawson: Yeah. That's true. David Canfield: Um, yes, but as for _Bardo_, uh, it's another comedy for him. His last comedy that premiered at Venice was _Birdman_ that went on to win Best Picture. And actually Iñárritu has won Best Director for his last two features, so obviously one to look out for. And then probably my most anticipated is _White Noise_, Noah Baumbach's new movie, um, with Adam Driver and Greta Gerwig, uh, with fantastic hair based on the first look still they released as part of the announcement. Uh, it's opening the festival. It's an adaptation of the Don DeLillo novel. It's a, it's a bigger swing from Baumback than I think we are used to. And, and as a huge fan of his stuff, um, I'm really intrigued by, uh, how he's gonna spin that book because it's pretty notorious as a tough to adapt novel. Richard Lawson: Yeah. I, I remember years and years ago at the American Repertory theater in Cambridge, Massachusetts, uh, my parents had season tickets and they took us to see a play called _Valparaiso_ that was written by Don DeLillo. I think it might have been based on a short story or a novel of his, or maybe it was just an original play, but either way at the time it was the most boring thing I'd ever seen in my life. And so I have this like innate Don DeLillo, like aversion, so I'm, I'm cautiously curious about that one, but, um, that was, I was also probably 12 years old, so I should give myself a little credit. David Canfield: That's a formative experience right there. Richard Lawson: Yeah. I think it's interesting that _White Noise_ is the opening film. I mean, that's clearly the festival trying to set some kind of tone. What tone, I don't know exactly. Um, opening night selections can mean a variety of things. It can be something they kind of want to get out of the way something they're they really wanna kick off the festival with a bang or just something kind of like, I think that when I went to Venice the first time in 2019, it was the Kore-eda film. So, you know, which was kind of a mild, not, not terribly earth shaking film. So I think the Baumbach will probably loom a little bit larger. David Canfield: Yeah, last year was _Parallel Mothers_, so. Richard Lawson: Okay. Yeah. Rebecca Ford: Does everyone else think Adam Driver's looking more and more like Noah Baumbach in every film he does? Like now he has the same haircut as him. Richard Lawson: It's like the, the Jane Campion thing, you know, just sometimes she just, she just wants some of her, her actors to look like her. Um, yeah. I, I could definitely see it. Or Christopher Nolan does that too, right? Like the shaggy- David Canfield: Oh yeah. Richard Lawson: Blonde hair and the, yeah. Rebecca Ford: But yeah, I agree. I think- I feel very hopeful for the Baumbach and I, I do think it being the opening night film is, is promising. And I feel like that's definitely one of my most anticipated as well. Richard Lawson: Do you think _Blonde_, uh, again, the Marilyn Monroe biopic starring Ana de Armas, uh, for which we have a very brief little teaser where we hear her Marilyn voice just a tiny bit, do you think that that being at Venice in competition, does that say anything to either of you about how we should be anticipating that film? Because the rumors have ranged from it's an NC 17 masterpiece to it's an NC 17 disaster, uh, and everywhere in between. So I'm curious about where you are, are all on _Blonde_ at the moment. David Canfield: I feel like there were rumors last year that Venice had turned it down and it had, it had started spiraling from there actually. So I guess this is a sign that Venice didn't despise it, which some people seem to believe. I'm not putting too much stock in it yet. It definitely shows that Netflix is taking the film seriously, um, which maybe shouldn't be a huge surprise. Um, there's a lot of anticipation around it and there's going to be, I would guarantee a lot of reactions to both her performance and to Andrew Dominik's, uh, rendering of Marilyn Monroe. Um, he is sure to provoke some very, very, very strong opinions. And that seems to be where we're at. And I don't really know what we can say beyond that, that hasn't already even said. Richard Lawson: Yeah. That to me feels like one of those things where you, you know, you see it at Cannes or, or Venice or some international festival that isn't Toronto. And it plays well there and you're like, yeah, let's see how that does when it gets to North America. David Canfield: Yeah. Richard Lawson: Because, you know, because I, what I have heard about _Blonde_, and I might be wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure this is the main knowledge on it is that like, the reason it's NC 17 is for explicit sex, including sexual violence. And I could see the Euro crowd at Venice being like, 'sure.' And then it landing with a thud at Toronto or somewhere else. Um, so it could have one of those precipitous falls once it leaves that sort of Euro climb. I don't know. David Canfield: Yeah. This seems like the best launch for it. Whatever, however far it goes from there. This seems like where they should be starting it off. Richard Lawson: And it's- is it, is it Netflix too? David Canfield: Yes. Richard Lawson: Yeah. So they couldn't be at Cannes because of those rules. So this was definitely its best bet. One other film I was genuinely surprised to see on the list because I had frankly kind of forgotten about it, despite us all talking about it a couple months ago is the Martin McDonagh film, _The Banshees of Inisherin_, um, which is a reunion for _In Bruges_ stars brandon Gleeson and Colin Farrell, correct. And it's another one of his little, he has a kind of series of plays. Um, and I guess now a film, that are set on these little Irish islands. _The Cripple of Inishmaan_, which Daniel Radcliff did on Broadway a few years ago, _The Lieutenant of Inishmore_, which was a big hit on Broadway I don't know, probably 15, 16 years ago. So I'm curious about this because a Venice premiere leads me to suspect that this is definitely a McDonagh film that is going for awards much in the way that _Three Billboards_ did. David Canfield: Yeah, we have a very splashy first look on vanityfair.com that, uh, folks interested can read. Um, I've seen the movie and I cannot say anything beyond what is in that piece, but, uh, I think you're exactly right on the money Richard, in that it is, it resembles his theatrical work more. It's the first Irish feature he has made, uh, despite at this point a pretty healthy film career, um, it does reunite Brendon Gleeson and Colin Farrell. I think it's pretty safe to say they're in a very different key than in, uh, _In Bruges_, which has definitely gone on to amass a real cult fandom after pretty quiet US release when it premiered and yeah, it's, it's, it's definitely positioned that way by _Searchlight._ Uh, it, it, I, I know that they really believe in the movie and I think anyone who's expecting like Francis McDorman cursing at children, at, at an elementary school, uh, should adjust their expectations a little bit. It's, it's, it is not that. Um, but it is still, um, what those more familiar with McDonagh more broadly familiar with his work, um, I don't think they'd be terribly surprised by what the movie is. Rebecca Ford: We've talked a little bit about the, the Netflix slate, but I'm also really excited for what A24 is bringing to the festival. You know, I think they have been kind of up and down for, you know, what they bring to festivals and award season lately, but, you know, they have _The Whale_, the Aronofsky film, and also _The Eternal Daughter_, which is from _Souvenir,_ director, Joanna Hogg and stars Tilda Swinton. So to me, that feels like it could be definitely something to watch. I think she plays a woman who returns to a former family home to discover long buried secrets. I feel like that logline applies to a couple of the films in this festival, but yeah. Richard Lawson: Yeah. But, um, weirdly that's what _Blonde's_ about too. Rebecca Ford: Also, I think _Bardo_ is about someone returning home to discover something, right? But I think she's an excellent filmmaker. And with Tilda, that could be something to keep an eye on. Richard Lawson: There's the fun of that also, um, kind of being spoken about as like a secret film, you know, that no one knew they were making it and then all of a sudden it was announced that it was happening. So I, I think, yeah, that's, that's really cool because Joanna Hogg the, the, the _Souvenir_ films are, have been highlights of their respective years, uh, recently. And, um, watching her collaborate with Tilda, uh, who is her old film school classmate, and, and also Tilda's daughter, Honor Swinton Byrne has been exciting. And, but it it'll be, I I'm happy to see Tilda moving to the front, you know, because she was sort of on the sidelines in _The Souvenir _film, so I'm curious to see what they do in that regard. Um, you know, and there aren't, you know, as always, there aren't a ton of female directors in that competition lineup, so, it is exciting to see at least Hogg there, as well as Rebecca Zlotowski, uh, who has _Other People's Children_. And then I'm looking at, out of competition, speaking of female directors, and you have _Don't Worry Darling_, the Olivia Wilde film that already has a pair of trailers out, everyone is curious, you know, about what is this actually about? Cause it has one of those sort of mystery box trailers where it, you know, it starts one way and then it takes a turn as some sort of sound effect starts playing, uh, which is a trailer format I'm getting a little sick of, to be honest, but, but also people are wondering about Harry Styles. I mean, if nothing else, right like Harry Styles in one of those wood sided motorboats in Venice, going to the premiere, those will be good photos. David Canfield: Yeah, he's gonna have a healthy September because then he's gonna dart off to Toronto for the My Policeman premiere, so he's gonna, he's gonna have cameras following him from coast to coast. Rebecca Ford: I mean, we're be giving- we're being, given Harry Styles and Timothée Chalamet at the same festival. I just, I just don't know what's gonna happen out there. It's like, the cameras are gonna explode. David Canfield: And Timothée's playing a cannibal, so yeah. Richard Lawson: That's enough. David Canfield: It's gonna get crazy. Richard Lawson: _Bones & All, _the Luca Guadagnino film. Yeah, you're right, Rebecca. I, I, I will be in Venice and if I don't see packs of teens running shrieking down narrow canal streets, uh, I will be surprised because if both Harry Styles and Timmy Chalamet are in town, I think that whole place is gonna explode. Rebecca Ford: Yeah. Richard Lawson: I mean, I remember because I was, I was at, uh, Venice when _The King,_ the sort of forgotten Timothée Chalamet. David Canfield: Oh yeah. Richard Lawson: Henry Vth-ish movie premiered. David Canfield: Emphasis on ish. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Yeah. Very ish um, uh, script co-written by Joel Edgerton. Um, That was madness. I mean, I was not even very close to the madness, but I remember it being real bedlams so, uh, add Harry Styles to that mix and I think that's gonna be pretty potent. Um, also out of competition is a Paul Schrader movie, the, uh, _Master Gardener,_ which I don't know anything about, but obviously his last two films have really resonated, um, _The Card Counter_ and _First Reformed_, uh, in a way that his films hadn't in a long time. So I'll, I think I'll be curious to see if he can continue that. David Canfield: Joel Edgerton's in that, so you summoned it. Richard Lawson: There you go. David Canfield: And, uh, Sigourney Weaver is also in it. Uh, talk about someone who has long deserved a great role of late. Richard Lawson: That's exciting. Um, well, before we wrap up the Venice talk, I, I, I want to ask you both a kind of cheap question, but like Rebecca, I'll start with you. Rebecca Ford: Oh gosh. Richard Lawson: Where do you see an Oscar in this, in this whole lineup? Where would you, right now in late July, where, what one thing would you pin an Oscar to? Rebecca Ford: Richard. Um, I think I'm gonna go, I say there's a lot of promise in this lineup. I think I'm gonna stick with the Baumbach. I'm gonna stick with _The White Noise_. Richard Lawson: Okay. Rebecca Ford: We've got Adam Driver and Baumbach combined again. It's an amazing cast. It's opening night. It's gonna at least be a major part of performance, if not picture. Richard Lawson: And you have Baumbach overdue weirdly even though his career is not that new or that, not that old rather. Driver kind of starting to feel almost overdue. David Canfield: So yes. Yeah. The ingredients were there. Richard Lawson: What would you say, David? David Canfield: I'm gonna go with a specific performance, uh, and that is Brendan Fraser in _The Whale._ I think for probably all of us, the hype on that has been, you know, it's been buzzed about in circles for a while. Darren Aronofsky has rung out Oscar winning performances before. The narrative on Brendan Fraser, I think is gonna be really, really strong. Um, and this is assuming it delivers at least in that respect, uh, a really great place to kick that off. Um, so that's one I'm, I'm watching just in terms of the challenge of the role. Um, and knowing how Fraser has not really campaigned for an Oscar before, um, but is a, a really strong personality, uh, with media that that could be a really strong combination. Richard Lawson: Yeah. And I think, you know, in give in one scenario, the fall kicking off with Brendan Fraser win's Best Actor at Venice film festival in 2022, that would be a really interesting narrative. So yeah, I think definitely eyes are on, on those two films. I, my mind is that like I have, I, I, I would like to live in a reality where somehow _Blonde_ is like amazing and Ana de Armas is, you know, transcendent and a revelation and she swiftly moves to the front of the pack, even past Kate Blanchett as an orchestra conductor. David Canfield: That- honestly, I hadn't really allowed my mind to go there, but now that you've said it, yeah, that would be an incredible, incredible run. I'm I'm all for that. Richard Lawson: Um, well potentially spoiling those actresses chances could be recently on Station Eleven, Danielle Deadwyler uh, she's the star of _Till _about Emmett Till's mother. That trailer just came out, which is interesting, because it's not out for a while, but that will be premiering at the New York Film Festival, which, um, I didn't think we were anywhere near announcements for that festival, but I guess we are. David Canfield: That felt very TIFF to me. Richard Lawson: Yeah, right? It does. It does feel kind of TIFF, but, um, but it's, it's a, it's a strong trailer even though I have seen plenty of objection online to the movie's existence. Like, why are we doing this, this is traumatic. Like, why are people being exposed to this? But, um, but yeah. Did that, did that trailer jump out to either of you like as mightily as it did to me, cuz it was like, oh, I, I mean I knew this movie was coming, but it it's really announcing itself early, which means, I think is a statement of intent. David Canfield: I thought it was really striking. I was really impressed by it. And I think Danielle Deadwyler is such a force. I mean, those who listen to this podcast know I'm a big fan of hers, but even so, um, just in the two minutes of that trailer, she really delivered, uh, in a way that I think is gonna be pretty undeniable, at least in the conversation for a nomination, uh, in a few months. Richard Lawson: Yeah. And it can probably have a little more space at New York, you know, it's not competing with quite so much other. David Canfield: And it might signal that the movie's a bit, um, less bio picky to the, to the TIFF point. You know, it's kinda the opposite of _The Fabelmans_ right? Like, does this signal the movie has artier ambitions than maybe we thought? Richard Lawson: Well right, and Chinonye Chukwu who, who directed, she made _Clemency_ a few years ago, which was a Sundance breakout. Alfre Woodard was incredible, and that really, I think, snubbed for an Oscar nomination that year. David Canfield: Totally. Richard Lawson: That was like the biggest upset, I think. I mean, it was a tiny movie about the death penalty, so wasn't that surprising, I guess. But, but I think one thing when I read the log line of _Clemency_, I was like, okay, so this is gonna be this kind of, you know, bland but important issue movie and it's really anything but, I mean, it's really a stylized film, um, in a lot of ways. So I I'll be curious to hear what _Till_ does in that regard. Um, there was some Twitter backlash to the trailer. I mean, entirely understandably. And, uh, the filmmaker, Matthew Cherry, who won an Oscar for his short animated feature _Hair Love_ a few years ago, uh, and directs a lot of television now, he, he quote, tweeted the trailer and was like, I know some people are not looking like, know excited about this and I get it. But like she, Chukwu has done something really interesting with the film. So I'm kind of guessing he's seen it already and so he seemed to be an advocate for it. So I'll be curious to see how that sort of debate about this film, uh, which is certainly very charged in subject matter, um, and placement in time. Um, I'll be curious to see how it fairs. Well, uh, speaking of trailers, uh, ComicCon happened and amidst, I don't know, trailers for _Dungeons and Dragons _and other things, um, there was one thing that actually did get me excited, uh, which was _Wakanda Forever,_ uh, sort of mournful, because obviously the_ Black Panther_ star Chadwick Boseman died two years ago, almost. Um, uh, but also exciting because it's a well cut trailer with an interesting sounds scape, uh, and also just showing off the great supporting cast of the previous film, um, that now seem to be moving more toward the center. So, uh, yeah. Did you guys, were you guys, did you, I've kind of felt like, okay, this could get another Best Picture Nomination. Obviously _Black Panther_ famously did. First and only Marvel film to do so, but I was like, Ooh, Angela Bassett seems to have a couple big scenes. Maybe she could get in. Yeah. That's so, yeah. What are your impressions? Rebecca Ford: Yeah, I feel like it definitely is on the road to being a part of the Best Picture conversation. Uh, I mean, so much of Hollywood I think is still dealing with the loss of Chadwick Boseman. Obviously this cast has been talking about it and, you know, I think it was a big surprise to a lot of people that he was not awarded the Oscar for _Ma Rainey's Black Bottom,_ and so it feels like they have created a film that is a powerful goodbye to him. And on top of that, you know, Ryan Coogler's just a phenomenal filmmaker and, and was given that sort of appreciation for the original film. So it does feel like this is going to be a part of the conversation this year. David Canfield: Yeah. I, I watched the trailer and honestly thought, why wouldn't I have Ryan Coogler's new _Black Panther_ movie as a kind of default Best Picture nominee right now. There are so many unknowns at this point in the season, obviously. And he is a filmmaker who has proven again and again, uh, he should not be underestimated. He is incredibly deft with incredibly complicated circumstances, and, uh, in this film, those are, there are many of them , uh, the loss of their star, um, but also just having to work within Marvel and create something really distinctive and artful, which he did the first time around. Yeah, this trailer definitely reminded that he is, he probably should be assumed to be in that conversation, and this film should be assumed to be in that conversation, uh, until proven otherwise. Richard Lawson: Yeah. I mean, I think the one thing that has me, well, the big thing that has me worried a little bit is that you look at _Ironman II_ or _Avengers II_ or Taika Waititi's second turn in the _Thor_, you know, chair like, yes, like this, this, the follow up Marvel film from, uh, one director, be it John Favreau or Taika Waititi or whoever, doesn't tend to fare well based on history, but I think this is a different thing. In, in the same way that_ Black Panther_ exists in the Marvel cannon and it's in the continuity of its storyline and all that stuff, but it does stand on its own in a way a lot of the other films don't, um, I, I, my hope is that _Wakanda Forever_ will kind of exist in that same way where yes, it's, it's doing its duty is like connecting this movie to that movie and setting things forward in motion, but like also is doing its own kind of whole thing. Um, I, I, I, my, my hunch would be that that is kind of how they're positioning it just because the trailer is a much more considered emotional, uh, thing than our most Marvel trailers, obviously. And, and I think so I think that, I think the studio does know that this movie has to exist in a different way. And hopefully they knew that all through production too, and, and kind of, didn't maybe try to micromanage in the same way that they do for others, other titles. David Canfield: In our week of Keke Palmer memes, and maybe this is me transitioning to _Nope_, but, uh, there was one of her doing these unbelievable impressions of Angela Bassett at her most, uh, hysterical in classic film scenes. Like _What's Love Gotta Do With It_, which basically to me was a reminder of how great Angela Bassett can be, and especially with a crying scene and it looks like this movie's going to deliver them. So I would love to see her, uh, find her way into that conversation. Even though I do think with, with Marvel movies, it is particularly difficult for actors to break through that noise. Um, Michael B. Jordan of course was kind of circling for the first _Black Panther,_ um, but didn't make it through. Um, but I would anyway, I'd love to see that. Richard Lawson: The thing helping Bassett in that regard is like, again, we were talking about Baumbach and whoever else, like talk about overdue, you know? Rebecca Ford: Yeah. Richard Lawson: Like, like there are, I mean, there are still people who are like, she should have won for _What's Love Got To Do With It_ all those years ago, and I, I wouldn't disagree. I mean, she's amazing in that movie, she's been great in other things. She hasn't quite had the opportunities I don't think, unfortunately, that she should have gotten. Um, so this feels like maybe a slight mea culpa on that would, you know, that would be part of a win. So, I don't know, there's something about that trailer, and then we see a little snippet of a speech in front of a group of people. And I was like, oh, this could be her... something big for her, which would be great. David Canfield: Yeah. Richard Lawson: Uh, well, David, you mentioned _Nope_, uh, which means, I think it might be time to let you go cause you haven't seen _Nope_. David Canfield: Blame COVID. Richard Lawson: We don't wanna spoil it for you. Yeah, well, yeah, I say _Nope_ to COVID. Um, so should you, um, so we'll let you go, but, uh, and then Rebecca and I will have a little chat about, about that film. All right, so Rebecca, we've both seen this very buzzed about very secretive, uh, until probably that last trailer. I think that one, maybe it was an international trailer kind of gave away too much for my taste, but a lot of people have seen it. It did pretty well over its opening weekend. So now that we can talk a little more freely about the film, uh, I'm curious what you, what you think of it and has it changed at all in your mind since you first saw it? Rebecca Ford: It's interesting as I, I went to the LA premiere of this, and first of all, wonderful film to see with people. Like I don't go to that many movies and sort of packed theaters, uh, you know, as many as I used to, and just the laughter, the jumping in your seats, like this is a movie to obviously see in a theater, if you can. And, um, I walked out of it really, really impressed. And especially with the acting performances. I think we've all talked about Keke Palmer as much as humanly possible, but you know, she's not only great at an interview. She is like really wonderful in this film, and, uh, I hope gets many more leading roles after this. Um, and Daniel Kaluuya, I think is one of the most consistent actors in every movie he's in. And, and does it again in sort of a different way with this one. Um, I had a lot of questions and I think that's what Peele wants to do with his films. He doesn't want you to have it all figured out when you walk outta the theater. I would say there was... Oh, we can spoil things, right? The, the storyline with Gordy did not work as well for me when I walked out of the theater. I was like, I did not enjoy that storyline, um, about the murderous monkey, but you know this, with Peele's films, I go and I read interviews, I read like as many articles as I can after I see them, because I do think there is so much to dig into and he said that he, he added that storyline to make you feel uncomfortable. And that's exactly what it did for me and why I hated it. So now I would say my appreciation has definitely grown as I've sort of sat with the film and, and read more on it. Richard, what about you? I read your review, but I'd love to hear, uh, from you what your sort of general take was. Richard Lawson: Yeah. I mean, I think that I probably owe it a second viewing, you know, because it is so dense with themes and ideas and motifs and all this, you know, it there's just so much detail in it that on first viewing, um, and you know, I'm not complaining, but it's just, you have to, you know, I had to turn that review around kind of quickly, because there's an embargo that's up early the next morning or whatever. So I didn't get as much time to think about it, but like in that initial, let's say 12 something hours. Like I, I just didn't feel like a lot of that stuff hung together. It's interesting that you say that he kind of added the Gordy thing, you know, which wasn't initially part of the, the movie's landscape. And I think kind of a lot of the movie feels like that. Like it's like, oh yeah, I could do this and I could do this. And, and then I I'll sort of find a way to tie it together. And I don't know if it really did that for me. And I did feel the same way about _Us._ You know, I think Peele is such a talented filmmaker, uh, on so many levels. I mean, he, I say in my review, like, he's just so good at like taking genre conventions and your typical scene of discovery or whatever it is in the early stretches of one of these movies and, and kind of just turning it at a weird angle or sort of, it feels sometimes like the camera is, is moving to see a side of something we, we don't normally see, and, and, and that's really exciting. I think that what maybe has tripped him up for me, at least in his last two movies is that, that were in his mind, the sort of the scope of his ambition sometimes I think gets the better of the story he's trying to tell. And I, I love a movie where you have to kind of parse it out later and, and, and that reading things helps, you know, it sort of supplement or explain things. I think there's nothing wrong with a, a movie that's sort of withholding about what it's really about, but I also don't know if we should be asked to do quite so much work to help this film make sense. And, um, so I think maybe some editing of, of the text itself would benefit it, but that said some of the set pieces are incredible. I think that opening, not opening, but it's, it's kind of one of the first introductions to this thing in the sky when, um, Daniel Kaluuya's character is out in the valley and it's nighttime and there are just lights in the distance and ominous sounds and the sky is, you know, midnight blue and that stuff is so good and is really where the kind of homage to Spielberg and M. Night Shyamalan, I think reads the best. Rebecca Ford: Yeah. I think he's such an intelligent and like beautiful filmmaker. And I do, I mean, when you start out your career, at your filmmaking career with _Get Out_, it's like it, it's a nearly perfect film to me. And so to watch him push beyond what he's already done is, is so admirable to me. You know, he doesn't have to keep pushing to make these films bigger and, and different genres. Like I think what he's doing is really brave and really pushing his own skill in, in a way I admire. Um, I agree with what you're saying. There's a lot of ideas and sometimes that would take me out of the film while I was watching it like, 'oh, what does this part have to do with this? Or why is that shoe floating on the ground like that or things like that.' so, um, I agree that he has a lot going on and, and, and maybe that's just, you know, the nature of how his mind works. Um, I do think he is probably one of the best at sort of casting and getting performances from actors that I just think are nearly perfect. You know, I mean, I mentioned Keke and Daniel already, but Steven Yeun is, is great in his role in this. And then a newer actor, Brandon Perea has a, a really strong role, I thought as sort of that fries electronics guy who appears in the film. And I think he's a really strong director when it comes to actors, especially. Richard Lawson: Yeah, Perea's is a strong role and a strong jawline. Rebecca Ford: Yeah. Strong jawline. Richard Lawson: He is a handsome, handsome man as is Daniel Kaluuya, obviously, and Steven Yeun, who, um, you know, Steven Yeun's part is interesting because that's another one where I was like, I, I look, I like a lot of what this is doing, I just don't know if it fits in this other story. And, and in that stuff where, you know, Steven Yeun is playing this former child star who witnessed this horrible thing on a set, a story that was definitely influenced by that real life story about the woman's whose whose friend's chimpanzee mauled her, and she went on Oprah later and, um, basically did not have a face anymore. All of that I think was so interesting and grim, but when it tries to lock up with what's happening with the horse ranch and those characters, I think that's when the movie unfortunately reveals some of its narrative holes or faults in logic. And look not everything need be logical. There can be weird little loops of reason and maybe things don't make sense. That's okay. But I sometimes, but I has to feel, I think intentional and it doesn't always hear it. It sometimes feels like a, an oversight, which, you know, maybe I'm being too pedantic about the movie and, and just, you know, auditing it too closely. But I think unfortunately, because he had this huge breakout with _Get Out_, his first film as a director and a writer, and it is so airtight that unfortunately, I, you know, you kind of do approach subsequent films hoping for that same level of assuredness and, and, and, uh, holistic, I guess, competence or whatever. And, and I don't know that his subsequent two films have, have delivered that, but I, I would be curious to see what he did working with another writer. You know- Rebecca Ford: Interesting. Richard Lawson: Same directorial technique, um, maybe another voice in that part of the process, um, to, to see, to help shape things a little bit. And because I, you know, sometimes _Nope_ feels a little bit aimless, I guess, in all of its many, many, many ideas. Rebecca Ford: I wonder if the Gordy, I think I called him Gordo earlier, I apologize to the CG monkey. His name is Gordy. Richard Lawson: And you apologize to Gordo from Lizzie McGuire. Rebecca Ford: Also apologies, apologies all around. Yeah. Uh, I wonder if it would've been better as like a separate film, although I would've not have watched that film because that was such a stressful storyline. But I see what you're saying, it does feel like two ideas, um, split the movie in that way. Richard Lawson: I, I think I used it in the term, in, in my review of, of _Us_, but like, it's something that I've used to describe things in the past. It's like, it's like a junk drawer movie. You know, it's like you have that drawer in your house that has like rubber bands and uh, one battery and, you know, whatever other random ephemera that you toss in there that you'll hope to use someday. And it does sometimes feel like he has all these interesting snippets of something, and then he kind of stitches them together and takes a step back and says, is this a movie? Um, and I don't, I sometimes I think I see that stitching too, too plainly, but, but, um, yeah, if you have anything to say to us about _Nope,_ if you disagree with us, agree with us, whatever, you can. Um, or if you want to talk about anything else, ask us question, leave a comment, you can contact us on subtext. Uh, you can go to joinsubtext.com/littlegoldmen, or you can text 917-809-7096. Uh, we're also on Twitter @littlegoldmen and on our own. I'm @rilaws. David Canfield's @davidcanfield97 and Rebecca? Rebecca Ford: @beccamford. Richard Lawson: Our editor and producer is Brett Fuchs, and this week's award for the best description of where Katey Rich is right now, goes to David Canfield. David Canfield: Cursing at children at, at an elementary school.