Intro: "The world works in certain ways until a new great idea comes along and changes everything." "We need a name." "We?" "We live." "We dream." "WeWork." "I'm Travis Kalanick, and I will never back down from a fight. And if no one wants to believe in me, I'll make them believe by being undeniable." "These kids don't overthink, they don't get bogged down about the way things have always been done. They want to change things now!" 

Richard Lawson: Hello and welcome to the finale of _Still Watching: Downfall of the Startups_. I'm _Vanity Fair_ Chief Critic Richard Lawson. I'm here today with VF Awards Editor Katey Rich. Hello, Katey. 

Katey Rich: Hello, Richard. We're back to where we started so many weeks ago. 

Richard Lawson: What have we learned? We... I hope we could... we, I'm sure a lot. We can talk about that. Um, so... 

Katey Rich: I'm a billionaire now after all of this, so I hope you are too. 

Richard Lawson: I think in, in theory, but it's not liquid. I, I, you know, I don't know. I'm trying to remember all these terms. 

Katey Rich: You're suing SoftBank to make sure you get your billions. 

Richard Lawson: Yes, exactly. So, uh, just in case people aren't aware, today we are talking about the last episode of _WeCrashed,_ "The One With All the Money." Katey, is that a _Friends_ joke? 

Katey Rich: As you said that out loud, cause it's, it happens in the episode too. You hear, um, you hear the SoftBank executive say it at the end too, but, uh, I'm just going to assume that he was making a _Friends_ reference. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah, I think _Friends_ is big in Japan. It's big the world over. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. 

Richard Lawson: Later in this episode we'll have Katey's interviews with, uh, Emily Jane Fox, who is a writer here at VF, um, who knows quite a bit about the WeWork fiasco, uh, and then O-T Fagbenle who plays Cameron Lautner on the show. You know, we, we closed out _Super Pumped_ last week and _The Dropout_ the week prior, um, and we're able to have, or I was able to have with other, um, co-hosts like some, you know, somewhat summative conversations about those series. So I'm curious from you, Katey, now that we've reached the end of _WeCrashed_ like how did it land for you? Like do you feel like it delivered on the promise of the earlier episodes? 

Katey Rich: I really feel like it was so consistent throughout, and I don't know how much you have gotten into the nitty gritty of this as the season has gone on. But I think we both started, you know, we covered those first three episodes of _WeCrashed_ early on, uh, and I was so high on the show and I've been kind of baffled by people who have not been as into it as I am, which is fine. TV can be different for everybody. Um, but I have found so much consistent pleasure in this show, um, uh, in a different way than _The Dropout_, which I think is also very good, and a different way from _Super Pumped_. And I just think through the end, like not only the schadenfreude of WeWork and its collapse have been so entertaining, but Jared Leto and Anne Hathaway. And these last two episodes, I think do such a great job of centering the show fully around the two of them. And I would watch a whole other season of these two monsters ruining other people's lives. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah, for me the redemptive moment of this episode, um, and the one that I think finally does deliver on what I think this show is actually about, uh, is that very final scene. Um, where we see Adam and Rebekah, they seem to have escaped, not by the skin of their teeth, but with like lots of money chasing behind them, you know? Um, and they're howling, you know, in the car on the way to the airport. Um, but anyway, they're at the Dead Sea and then Rebekah gets this call from Masa who was basically like, "Oh, by the way, you're not going to see any of that money, so bye." Uh, and then she runs into the Dead Sea, her eyes start burning, his eyes are burning and they're just flailing and she's screaming "the money, the money." That I feel like was what this show was actually about. It was about WeWork, yes, about the specific company, but it was really, I think about an ethos. A sort of hustle culture, writ large, that, um, that these two people were, are really, I think persuasive exemplars of a lot of bad ideas about money and success that have emerged out of the digital age. 

Katey Rich: And there's that scene a little bit earlier, um, that kind of, you know, the format of this episode is really interesting, and we can talk about that, where you see her at the dinner table with him essentially saying like, "Go leave. It's just money we'll live without it." And he having grown up much poorer than her was like, "Look, you don't actually know what it's like to not have money." Um, but she's really convincing in that scene, even though we've seen so many episodes of Rebekah being so self-centered and not capable of sacrifice at all. Um, and then in that final scene the veil is lifted again and you're like, "Oh yeah, it's just about the money." 

Richard Lawson: Yeah, her saying that, I mean, you know, we have heard real life things close to that. Like, you know, having too much money is just as bad as not having enough, and it's like no that is absolutely not true. Um, but I, I kind of felt like in that, that scene where that's really played admirably by the both actors and then the writing really straightforwardly like, oh, we, I think we are supposed to be having this moment of connection with these characters. But then you think about it and you're like, no, Rebekah's saying what she thinks an enlightened person should say in this moment, but you kind of, you can't imagine really in the back of her mind, or not even in the back, that she is at all content with the possibility that she and Adam will have to sell their beautiful homes and not be able to go on fabulous trips and not kind of swagger around the world, um, as little masters of the universe. Like, I, I don't think she believes it, but she's trying to, it's one last act, you know, all the way back to her "Oh, I'm going to be a serious Chekhov downtown loft artists," um, all the way to like, "Oh no, I I'm actually, you know, I'm not, I'm kind of above money." She's just still lying to herself about this stuff. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. And when you see scenes, like, um, when she tells the parents that she's shutting down the school, um, which is such a nice echo of the, um, the summer camp scene in the beginning of the season where all the women are revolting against her, um, like there's, there are people there to call her on her bullshit right away, but the whole thing about their relationship is that with Adam, he's going to buy right into it. And it works on him the way that it does not work on any normal person. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah and I think that she realizes, especially in that very frantic final scene is like- so people are now willing to write nasty articles about me and my husband. People are willing to call me an asshole to my face at my own school. That she realizes the only thing that protects her, and also sort of the only thing that makes her special, that gives her that shine that Elishia, you know, played by America Ferrera, alluded to episodes earlier is money. And so at the end of the day, despite all of the big talk about raising the world's consciousness and all that stuff, it was really all that mattered was a ton of money.

Katey Rich: It's the one with all the money as Masa tells Rebekah. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, I hope that people are watching the show because I think this episode is such a good, you know, kind of sizzle reel of how incredible these two lead performances are. And I really appreciate, and sometimes I don't like when they show, you know, in a post credits or whatever, the real people, because it kind of, it breaks the spell, but in this case you listened to Adam Neumann talk and you're like, "wow, Leto nailed that." Do you agree? 

Katey Rich: Yeah. I mean, I'm no accent genius. Um, and you know, Jared Leto's accent in _House of Gucci_ might've been perfect for all that I know, but I think he nailed that. And he, even more than that, he nailed the like the tone and the rhythm with which he speaks and that like conviction behind his eyes that I think is why people bought into so much of his bullshit all along. And Rebekah sitting right there with kind of this like beatific smile being like, "Yes, my husband does think I'm perfect and so do you." Like that energy that they give off was perfect, um, compared to what Hathaway and Leto were doing. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. Yeah. I think that, um, well, A- beatific was the pangram on spelling bee today, so well done for incorporating that. Um, but also like, I think that Leto, yes, it's getting that cadence right, that certain solicitous charm that worked on a lot of people for a long time. And, and Hathaway isn't quite doing a vocal impersonation of Rebekah Neumann, but she's getting something ineffable right about it. This kind of, there's something appealing to her for a second, but then you're kind of like, you sit, sit, sit back a little bit further and you're like, wait, I don't know if this- are they kind of creepy? Like, what is this? And I like the moment, you know, in the, in the actual episode where Cameron Lautner played by O-T Fagbenle, like he gives a speech to all these former cultists, I guess you could call them. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. 

Richard Lawson: And is like, guys let's break the spell. Like this is insane. Like, so it's, it's nice in this episode to have both a reminder of why their charm worked at one point, and then also the more cold reality, which is like, they, that charm will never work for them again. People have- the veil has been lifted and, um, people like Cameron are willing to say it out loud and so that means a lot of other people will be too.

Katey Rich: Yeah, I know we're jumping all around the episode, um, but I I've been really fixated on O-T Fagbenle for a couple of episodes. You know, I think it's episode six or seven where he really emerges as the skeptic in the house and going through all of their files. And in that speech, like that's such a hard moment to pull off where he steps up there as just this like really blunt money guy. And like not the person who you would imagine yourself rooting for watching a show like this. Um, but you see the room warm up to him as he's giving his speech and he's saying something that I think has become even more popular post pandemic, where it's like, work is work. Work is not your family. It's not the lifestyle that you want to build, it is a place where you're going to make money so that you can live the rest of your life the way you want to. Um, and they, they kind of accept it there, but it's almost like you see him paving the path forward. And I, I'm imagining probably more of what WeWork is doing now where it's like, we're a space for you to work and that is it. Moving on. 

Richard Lawson: Which I think is such a good distillation of a sort of reality check that an entire industry, an entire sort of ecosystem of lifestyle and work that has had to have. You know, maybe because of the pandemic or other reasons, but these bubbles bursting and people basically saying, we spent the last 15 years trying to make work in the startup space that's especially a kind of identity and a calling, while also being very mindful of the fact that we could get ludicrously rich off that. 

Katey Rich: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: You know, you saw that tension in _The Dropout_ where in episode one, Elizabeth Holmes says, "I want to be a billionaire," but then the tune changes where she's like, "No and I want to change the world. I want to help ailing people. I want to help the military, you know, whatever, do blood tests in helicopters." And yet, I think as Cameron in this episode really coldly and truthfully delineates, he's like, "no, this is just about money." Like put all the other stuff away. Yes, if you happen to love what you do also great, but like let's not labor under, literally labor under any delusions that there's more to it than, than this cold hard fact of money. And I think that is really where _WeCrashed_ succeeds is in diagnosing that broader, um, maybe consciousness shift in, in recent years away from the startup kind of culty language and more toward like, you know what? Facebook is just a kind of evil capitalist company. It's not, they maybe have a, some aims to actually do some altruistic good in the world, but that's not the chief goal of this title.

Katey Rich: It's incidental.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, because these companies, the bigger they get the more powerful they get, they kind of become sentient entities unto themselves. And they have one mission, which is to just like scale and reproduce and grow. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. Do you think that it's making us sympathize too much with the finance guys, but not sympathize, but you know, you get the scene where it's Bruce Dunlevie, um, played by Anthony Edwards, and who's- whoever the guy who plays Jamie Dimon is so good at like, seeming like a real- 

Richard Lawson: Campbell Scott, I believe. 

Katey Rich: Oh, it's Campbell Scott. Yeah, no, he's so good at that like still creepy banker thing. Um, and you're like, "Oh, they're right." But like, I don't want to be on Jamie Dimon's side, but like in this case I am. Is that a, is it a problem that they're having us side with these guys? 

Richard Lawson: Well, first of all, Katey, I wish you'd been able to see Campbell Scott as hot Scrooge in a production of _A Christmas Carol_ that was on Broadway a couple of years ago. 

Katey Rich: I believe it completely.

Richard Lawson: It was really disarming because you were like, I didn't think Scrooge was supposed to be like a dash of silver fox. 

Katey Rich: That's kind of what his Jamie Dimon is actually.

Richard Lawson: Exactly. But yeah, I think that the weird thing that a show like this does by immersing us in this, as you know, the Benchmark guy calls it, played by Anthony Edwards, "you're toxic." Like we have been immersed in this kind of toxic mindset for, you know, eight episodes now and it's such a refreshing thing to have someone actually not bullshit and just tell the truth. 

Katey Rich: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: And the thing is, is that's coming from people who otherwise I think we would both recognize this, maybe not the best people in the world. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. Yeah, there's really something about just like being frank about what it is that you're doing and you're right that like that whole startup culture of like, you know, Slack is going to revolutionize the workplace. It's like, oh, it'll just like make money and maybe make some people's jobs better. Um, and the thing that I've been struggling with throughout all of these shows is watching the like billions of dollars that get thrown at these companies that don't make money and don't make anything. Like, it makes you feel like you're, you're losing it and having Jamie Dimon just be like, "You're here to make money and that's it" um, it feels refreshing. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. Yeah. It also, I don't know. It's interesting, like now that I feel like we're pretty well-versed in, in this world having watched these three shows and talked about them. I still don't really understand the money. 

Katey Rich: I don't either. 

Richard Lawson: You know, it's just the, the, the numbers are so high that they kind of become imaginary and absurd. 

Katey Rich: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: Maybe they are imaginary. I mean, that's the thing. So like the people who are just like, "Oh no, here I'll write you a check for $900 million or whatever." You're like, "Uh, how does that work?" Like what does any of this mean? And I think in that kind of, these numbers are so big that you can't really comprehend them, is maybe how these things happen is because you're moving around in this space that doesn't really even exist. It's kind of virtual in a way. 

Katey Rich: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: And so the numbers stop meaning anything. 

Katey Rich: Well and I think the show does a good job of anchoring some of that in those real people. The um, you know, the, WeWork, uh, workers who we kind of check in more thoroughly toward the end of the season. Um, and the girl, um, Chloe Morgan, who was like the fictional employee we met in the summer camp episode and her Birkin bag, like I think that those are your point of view characters in some way, even if they're not the focus of the show. And you're like, I get, I get a $25,000 Birkin bag, what that means to a person who's making a salary. And the kind of heartbreak the IPO collapsing. Like I think it's tough for them to emphasize that too much because it's not relevant to the world of the Neumann's who is, or who we're following. But I think that they, they take the time to be like, no, a lot of people really got fucked by this. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. You know, and you know, I think Cameron does take a hard line on them. He's like you diluted yourselves. You know, you, you were complicit in this, but- 

Katey Rich: That feels unfair to me.

Richard Lawson: They were working crazy hours. They were, you know, being underpaid given how well paid, uh, the founders were being- were getting. And, you know, as we've learned from supplemental material to this show, like the documentary or articles, is that there- people were living in, We, WeLive spaces and they really had bought into it and then to have it all collapse and the two people who drove this thing into the ground walk away with however many hundreds of billions of dollars. And you literally don't get any of the return on your sweat equity or whatever. Regardless of whether I think that I would have put myself in that position, you do empathize with them because they were just kind of swept up in this culture in a way that a lot of people have been.

Katey Rich: Yeah. I mean, people get dollar signs in their eyes, right. And in our business, in journalism, like it's not that you don't really, really work for an IPO, but you know, we see people who go to Hollywood and they're like, 'well, if I'm going to kill myself working, but if I sell one thing to HBO then that's going to make it all worth it.' Like you, you put that carrot at the end of the stick for yourself and the people working for WeWork were very heavily incentivized to do that. And everyone around them was, and Adam Neumann from all accounts was really persuasive to get people to go along with that. 

Richard Lawson: Oh yeah. We talked about it last week, but like, um, with Scott Galloway, uh, that the, one of the, you know, people calling bullshit on all of this. Um, he, in one of the things he wrote about WeWork specifically, um, and, and, and in empathy toward the employees, even though they had diluted themselves, was like you get within 30 days of that IPO and you're doing the math and you're like, I could make $25 million in a month. It's impossible for anyone to not start spending that money in their head. Or in the case of this one employee, in the real world on a very expensive handbag. So, I can't say, even if maybe I wouldn't have been swept up by the WeWork culture at its inception, had I somehow ended up there and then we got that close to, to, to that moment of like, here's finally the payoff, I would have been just as jilted and horrified as anybody else and, and would have felt just as, you know, uh, cheated by the Neumanns. 

Katey Rich: You know, I was just going to say like, you and I both could have gotten wooed by the WeWork, you know, you know, like all the companies that started having blogs for a minute there, um, or publishing magazines, but like, did they, they, they very well, they very well may have, and they just didn't come recruiting us. Um, but yeah, I want to take that money probably. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. I mean, that's the, kind of the, now that we're at the end of all of these shows, like I don't- I mean maybe you feel differently, but I don't think any one between _Super Pumped_, _The Dropout, _and _WeCrashed_, I don't think any of these shows is saying this will never happen again because we've learned our lesson.

Katey Rich: No. No, it's so crazy, because they're still just going to like throw whatever they can at the next thing they think is going to make them rich, right?

Richard Lawson: Because if for every five that don't work, one maybe does. You know, maybe... 

Katey Rich: It think that's literally the business model of, um, what Blackstone, the finance group that's in, um, _Super Pumped,_ in the show.

Richard Lawson: Oh, Benchmark. 

Katey Rich: Benchmark. That's like literally what they do. They, they, you know, throw money at things and it balances out enough. I mean, and that's what movie studios do, right? Like they sink movies, they sink money into productions and some of them won't make money, but you know, one of them will be _Titanic_ and then you're rich forever. I guess that gambling is what capitalism is. Is this, is this the lesson we've learned, it was capitalism all along. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. And I think it's really horrifying as someone who, I don't think we really exist in that world. We work for a big company, but we're, it's not that kind of company. Like to see how speculative this all is, like how much of a gold rush kind of casino sort of situation it is, and to know also that, that those mistakes and those catastrophes do have ripple effects throughout, you know, that, that, that touch on many people's lives. You know, we see Uber drivers, um, you know, kind of brought to ruin on _Super Pumped_. We see, uh, someone take their own life on _The Dropout_. We see, you know, there, there, there's a lot of collateral damage that maybe isn't immediately evident. And so it is both enlightening to spend so much time in those boardrooms on these shows, but also really scary because it's like this will happen again and who knows, it could be even worse. It could be the, that the big one. You know, and I don't know what that big one would be, but, um, if, if, if a company is like, uh, uh, uh, you know, shared workspace company or whatever can have that, that many effects on people, like something much more pertinent to everyone's lives could really do some damage.

Katey Rich: Well. And just for us being close to home, I mean, I don't want to talk too much about something I don't fully understand, but Buzzfeed News laid off a ton of its newsroom and many people linked it directly to their IPO because when you are a public company your job is to make money for your shareholders as Cameron Lautner says in this episode. And news doesn't necessarily make money. And, you know, _The_ _New York Times_ is a publicly traded company, so it's not impossible, but I think the ramifications of this, um, obsession with making a ton of money off of something that may or may not be real, uh, comes around to screw all kinds of things up.

Richard Lawson: I think weirdly about, um, that documentary _Waiting for 'Superman_' about charter schools and I have a lot of negative feelings about charter schools, but like what, what that documentary does show at least persuasively is that there are these lotteries, you know. And so everyone, all these parents are desperate, desperate, desperate to get their kids into these charter schools because they're better than the public schools that are in their communities. Uh, but only a few people can get it. And what we've kind of built ourselves, for ourselves in this country is a situation where we accept that the general thing is bad and so we just kind of hope and pray that somehow we get lucky and get into the good thing. We hope and pray that we happen to work for the company where we become one of the 1%, uh, as the 1% more and more continues to, um, distance the wealth gap. You know, and, uh, there is, you know, it's so ironic that, that Adam Neumann of all people came from this collective living on a kibbutz and now is this very 'me, mine' kind of mentality. And, uh, a lucky few of you I'll, I'll, I'll, maybe, you know, throw a line to, but otherwise like everyone's in it for themselves. And, um, I think that's scary to think about.

Katey Rich: And I think people feel very comfortable in that cognitive dissonance when you're in these jobs where you're like, we are elevating the world's consciousness, or we are doing, you know, transforming the nature of working. And being like, well, you know, I'm using my collectivist background to help people while conveniently getting very rich and that has not changed my perspective at all. And I think _WeCrashed,_ um, does a, does a good job of, of digging into that a little bit without, you know, solving it because who can really, who can solve a problem like Adam Neumann, truly. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. You know, because the, in, in the scene in the cab or the car on the way to the airport, and then, you know, on the beach, like Adam laughs in the car, you know, because he's like kind of like we got away with it, sort of. Like we did pretty good, all things considered. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. 

Richard Lawson: Uh, and then they're howling and Anne Hathaway has a very good wolf howl.

Katey Rich: She does, I know. 

Richard Lawson: I found it very convincing. 

Katey Rich: She's very talented. 

Richard Lawson: So yeah, I would hope at least that maybe not this show itself, but like knowledge of the Neumanns and, and what Adam Neumann did with that company, like would give the people who are in the position to do this kind of thing with money in the future, like a little bit pause about these- these dynamic founder unicorn people. Maybe that culture has dimmed some, even if the VC, you know, get rich quick kind of startup scheme has not changed. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. The charismatic cult leader thing is certainly less fashionable now than it was. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. Well, let's go now, Katey, to your interview with Emily Jane Fox.

Katey Rich: So you're here not just because you're one of _Vanity Fair's_, I'd say many, but maybe the best expert on weird rich people, um, which is one of our favorite beats. Uh, but you have very special insight and, and not unbiased insight on _WeCrashed_, but you have unique access to the show. Um, would you like to tell people why you listen to, to the entire season being written? 

Emily Jane Fox: Well, um, I'm so biased as a, as a journalist. This is so outside of what I would traditionally do, but, but it does make sense for a couple of reasons. So my new husband, uh, wrote and co-created and, and showran the show, um, Lee Eisenberg's my husband and, um, he coined the term for what I call my beat, which is rich shitheads. And so I have been covering people like the Neumann's. I had never written about the Neumanns, but I had been covering people like the Neumanns, um, since I started being a reporter. Definitely since I started at _Vanity Fair_ seven years ago. And, um, I've listened to Lee and Drew Crevello write and rewrite and rewrite again, and then, uh, go into production on _WeCrashed_ because we were both working from home and this project sort of started, right, I think like right at the beginning of COVID. And, um, Lee is the loudest talker on the planet. We have a nine month old baby, so it's like a real thing. 

Katey Rich: An issue, yeah. 

Emily Jane Fox: But he is so loud. So I really feel like I heard every single word and every single moment of their virtual writer's room and then all the ins and outs of the production. So I feel like I've very special insight. And as a reporter, like, it's a totally different thing when you live with a reporter. And, uh, so I'm listening to all this stuff because I'm just really nosy and it's so cool. Like, I don't know all the downsides of working from home and working with your partner, you and I were just talking before we started recording this about, um, how tricky it is when you have little kids and your partners are also working from home. But, uh, it's so cool to have special insight into actually what goes in to your partner's job. Particularly when they're like creating a world. Lee and I are both writers and people always say like, 'Oh cool. You guys are both writers what a thing.' But I like report on what I see and he creates a world and it's such a crazy thing. 

Katey Rich: Yeah, this was something that came up with my husband and I, who's not a writer. We were watching it and there's all these scenes between Adam and Rebekah where like really momentous stuff that we know happen in real life happened. Like in the final episode where she basically tells him like the money doesn't matter, even though of course money matters. Um, and he was like, how do they get away with like, making that up? And I'm like, they're public figures, you can do whatever you want. But for you as a reporter, I think it must be really interesting watching the person you live with making up stuff that is really juicy and you can do it because it's fiction. That's a, it's a funny line to walk.

Emily Jane Fox: It is so funny. And, um, I know that there's like an extreme legal process to all of this. The way that we go through a legal process in our stories, that he, it's so funny because I literally would hear all of these calls. And he'd get off the phone after three hours on the call with lawyers about every aspect of everything for each episode. And he'd look at me and be like, 'ugh.' And I'd be like, 'Honey, what do you think it's like to close a magazine story?' Like it is, it is exactly the same thing. It's exactly that process. Um, but yeah, it's, it's so different when you're, you're able to take liberties. But they take such great caution. I think that they get into the brains of the characters in a way that I can't really understand. And so they will go back and forth for hours about, 'Well, I don't think that they, they would say that as their characters. I don't think that would be their reaction in a fight.' Um, and they do borrow stuff from their own lives and experiences. I've hear...I've now witnessed, um, two different writers rooms from home because Lee has, um, been in two writer's rooms during the pandemic. One was WeCrashed and one was his second season of_ Little America_, and, um, they're constantly drawing from their own experiences and their own bits of dialogue. Um, there are a couple of bits of our relationship that fictional Adam and Rebekah have said to each other. 

Katey Rich: Please tell us. If you want to.

Emily Jane Fox: I'm... if I want to? I've had no say in this. I feel like my relationship has been exploited without my- 

Katey Rich: Well it's on the show, but we don't know it's from you unless you tell us. 

Emily Jane Fox: Okay. I'm, I may get in trouble, but I'm going to tell you anyway. Um, so Lee and I say 'olive juice' to each other. And I didn't know it was going to be used until it was already in, in the script. 

Katey Rich: Oh man.

Emily Jane Fox: And, um, I found it both- this is a tough one to have, like in, in other shows, I'm always so happy when a little Easter egg shows up. A personal Easter egg. And then in this show, I was like, 'I dunno, is it corrupting our like really sweet thing that we say to each other? 'Cause they're such a weird, twisted- 

Katey Rich: Yeah

Emily Jane Fox: love story? But, but, um, there's something about it that's very sweet. 

Katey Rich: Well, when- does watching this version of Adam and Rebekah make you think differently about- cause you know, you didn't report on WeWork, but we all kind of knew the story. Like, do you feel warmer toward them than you did the real versions? Has the, has the show sold you on them and their, their weird love story?

Emily Jane Fox: Well, I think that they love each other. You know, it's so funny. Um, I spent a lot of time writing and reporting about and thinking about Jared and Ivanka and there's like a weird thing that's similar. Um, and I think part of it is money and I think part of it is scrutiny and, um, and like damage. Right? So they're the, the two couples have those three things in common. And the way I described Jared and Ivanka is that they have these 'need holes' and they fit each other's 'need holes' perfectly. Like they fill them. Their, their needles are in exactly the same spot because they had fucked up dads. And- am I allowed to curse? 

Katey Rich: Oh yeah, don't worry. 

Emily Jane Fox: Messed up dads. Okay, sorry I don't know. 

Katey Rich: Go for it, it's podcast. 

Emily Jane Fox: Um, they had messed up dads and so that their 'need holes' are in exactly the same place and they really know how to fill them. Um, I think Adam and Rebekah have that too. And so, um, I don't feel any sort of warmth toward any of the characters, but I feel they're human. And I think, I say this in a way that, you know, I'm biased. But the thing that I loved about the show is you're not sympathizing with the characters. The show isn't meant to make you sympathize. And I don't think it does. I think it humanizes them. It makes them three-dimensional. And the fact that they actually do love each other and they do fill these holes for each other. That's an important part of the story. It doesn't make me like them. It doesn't make me think, "Oh, they love each other, so I'm going to root for them." But it makes me feel like I get them as human beings who have been charicatures and all the other things that have been written about them and the documentary. Like they're people and here they are as people and here's how they got to making these decisions. So that's what I think is cool about it.

Katey Rich: Richard and I were talking about this in this episode of like, did anyone learn their lessons from this whole mess? Cause we've been talking about the downfall of Uber and of Theranos, which are all really different stories, but the, the theme is like rich people gambling, um, on all of these people who they think are gonna like make them all even richer. Um, do you think anyone has learned their lessons from this mess? 

Emily Jane Fox: No. 

Katey Rich: Of course not.

Emily Jane Fox: I think, well, this is the problem. Uh, well, I think people are, are savvier, right? Um, I think, and, and also like, uh, I will add in the Anna Delvey show to this for a second, which I watched all of. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. Also personal _Vanity Fair_ connection in that.

Emily Jane Fox: True, yes.

Katey Rich: We're all over the place.

Emily Jane Fox: That's really why I had to keep going. But, um, I watched all of this and, uh, both of them it's sort of like, I kind of could see it happening again. I kind of could see, um, particularly on the bank side that this, this would happen again. People get so excited by the notion of a new thing. I think we're past this, this unicorn era that we were in. And I see it with companies that I'm reporting on, or definitely with founders that I'm reporting on. There is, um, I would never report on a founder the way that we reported on founders when I first came to _Vanity Fair._ Just like, it's not cool anymore to be like this, uh, this unicorn startup the way that it was cool before. There's sort of like a little bit of an eye roll and I don't know if it's- 

Katey Rich: Yeah like the cult leader thing has gone out of style.

Emily Jane Fox: It's done. And I think and like the girl boss era is done. There is, there's like very different- I remember, uh, the first time I went to _Vanity Fair's_ Summit, which is a thing we used to do, which is- 

Katey Rich: Elizabeth Holmes was there I believe. 

Emily Jane Fox: I wrote the party report. 

Katey Rich: Oh. 

Emily Jane Fox: And for anyone who does not work for _Vanity Fair_, which is the majority of people, um, when, when _Vanity Fair_ throws very great parties, I don't know if it still happens, but when I first started here, um, a young reporter or a seasoned reporter, whoever it would be, would have the task of writing a little write-up about what happened at the party. Who talked to whom, which celebrities talked to this tech founder and this studio head and whatever. It was actually like a very cool thing, a little intimidating, but cool. So, uh, at Vanity Fair's Summit, it was in San Francisco and Elizabeth Holmes was at the conference. And she spoke on stage and then there were all these parties at night, and I was tasked with writing a party report. Um, probably for you Katey to, to read it. And, um, I can't remember if it was the headline or like the lead of the story called her the Belle of the Ball. And basically the premise of the party report was that everyone was orbiting around Elizabeth Holmes. 

Katey Rich: But I bet that was true. 

Emily Jane Fox: It 100%... see, I only get to write truth. So it was, it was a hundred percent true. Like I remember Katie Couric was, was around her and all these men were circling around her. And I don't think that that happens today. A. because I don't think that there's a company that can capture... there's, there's too much attention, uh, and there, there's too many things. You can't capture that attention, the way that you could before. There were, there was kind of only one at a time, and B. I think the appetite for it is just like, there's a, there's a little bit more of an ick factor with that than, uh, an awe factor. 

Katey Rich: When I, I talked to Nick Bilton earlier in the season and I was reading his, I think his piece on the fall of WeWork and he was talking about geezer capitalists as these guys who are just like chasing the idea of youth and excitement. Um, and that to me feels like it still has to be really true. Like it's not the same like cult or personality, but it's a bunch of older, rich people who want to know what young people want to do and will throw money at it. And that kind of gambling is going to always be part of it, right? 

Emily Jane Fox: A hundred percent. I mean, until there aren't geezers who are in charge of billions and trillions of dollars of money, uh, it won't, it won't be any different. And also you have to think a lot of these people were not cool. And, um, in a lot of my reporting, I constantly remind myself that these are like the nerds in school who finally can buy their way into being cool.

Katey Rich: Yeah. 

Emily Jane Fox: And, um, of course, so much of it revolves around profit and is, is this going to make them even richer. Uh, but a lot of it also has to do with, is this going to get me invited to the cool kids table? And I think, I think that that's just so deeply enmeshed in a lot of these decisions that get made. 

Katey Rich: Um, something specific to _WeCrashed_ that Richard and I couldn't quite wrap our heads around is Miguel's kind of end of his story here because I think he's been the nice guy throughout the show and he saw, he sticks with WeWork after the Neumann's are gone. Um, but he was also complicit in this whole disaster. Um, and I, I liked the way that the finale emphasizes the friendship between the two of them that like you would stick by your friend even when he was making all these bad decisions. And I, I wonder from your perspective, either knowing the real story, just how the show did it, like, is that fair to the real Miguel McKelvey? Did we need that kind of like semi, uh, hero in the midst of all this? 

Emily Jane Fox: Um, I don't know that the real Miguel is thought of as a hero. Um, people like him. People like genuinely have nice things to say about him and I think a lot of the, I know a lot of the story moves with Miguel are based in truth. Um, it's so interesting when you have a number two who's such a, this is going to be mean. Who feels like such a doormat and, um, and yet stays there despite the fact that he's a doormat. And I think that that's a little bit of a tricky thing. I think, um, the complacency thing is real, but you're also able to, to shirk off bad stuff because you're able to say this was a guy who there was no stopping him. And I mean, I can only equate this to people in the White House who I talked to all the time in the previous White House, previous administration. 

Katey Rich: Yeah.

Emily Jane Fox: Who would say, um, I am the adult in the room and if I wasn't there it would have been a hundred times worse. 

Katey Rich: Yep.

Emily Jane Fox: Right? 

Katey Rich: They said that all the time. 

Emily Jane Fox: It was the party line. If I could, if I could have had, um, a fraction of a, of a, WeWork every time someone said that to me I would be a very rich lady. Um, and it annoyed me so much because it's like, you guys are all adults in the room. You wouldn't be working at the White House if you weren't adults. Don't like, don't taut the fact that you're the adults like it was so annoying. Um, but I think that there's a little bit of that in Miguel where it's sort of like, imagine how much worse it would have been if, if not for me. Are there any other like production secrets that you are curious about it? I'm trying to think of what I can tell you guys. 

Katey Rich: Well I want to know... so you, I think you were pregnant like when the show is in like the throes of production, right?

Emily Jane Fox: Okay. So, I was extremely pregnant. So we, we, I got stuck in LA, uh, Lee and I had been going back and forth between New York and LA. Um, and then I got stuck here in the pandemic and had to move out of my apartment in New York from LA and like I kind of accidentally moved to LA. And, um, we, I got pregnant, uh, I found that I was pregnant the day Joe Biden officially won. 

Katey Rich: Oh my God. What a day. 

Emily Jane Fox: Truly. Lee and I, um, Lee was, was deep in the throes I guess of finishing writing _WeCrashed _at that time. Um, and then they started production like beginning of May. They, they, that was like the first day of shooting. So we came back to New York, I was eight months pregnant. 

Katey Rich: That was a wild time to fly. 

Emily Jane Fox: Oh yeah. Well, so it's a crazier time to fly back the day, the day you turned nine months pregnant. So I was, I was there for about five weeks and, um, production of a show like this is very long and very intense. Extremely stressful at times. And so I would be by myself, I mean, by myself, I was in New York and I was working. Um, but I wouldn't see Lee for, you know, 12, 13 hours a day and then he'd come home and probably work for another couple of hours. Seven days a week. Production like this is a beast. 

Katey Rich: Yeah.

Emily Jane Fox: And you have, you have the real stories that you're working so hard to get right. You have major movie stars who are, I don't know I don't think that I've ever seen Lee work with movie stars like this. And so it's a different thing because they are, their processes are serious. 

Katey Rich: Yeah they've worked hard to get to the point where they can do performances like this. 

Emily Jane Fox: Beyond and, you know, like Lee didn't talk to, to Jared from like April until the show wrap he talked to Adam. 

Katey Rich: Yeah, Adam cannot be an easy person to be trying to, as we know from watching the show, Adam Neumann's not an easy person to work with. 

Emily Jane Fox: Uh, well, he's just in character and, and Annie is, I mean, I admire what she does and I only saw this through Lee, but because Lee is such a loud talker I feel like I, I have really... I would report on it, no problem if it, if there was something I would report on, because I feel very confident that I know it was happening. Um, she is so intensely focused on getting things right. Like her process is crazy. It's like, it's like more scrupulous than I am as a journalist. And it's a myth, I guess I'm naive because this is not the world that I cover, but I had no idea that this is what goes into getting a character right and making sure that all, every single, every single bag that she carried and sunglass that she wore. Uh, every single toy, and I appreciated this cause I was buying all this stuff for nurseries at this time, but the toys that were in her nursery that the prop people had, like they had to be right.

Katey Rich: Oh yeah. Well, because you know that Rebekah Neumann would be obsessive over the toys that would be in her nursery. 

Emily Jane Fox: Extremely specific and she, as a, as a mom who knows many Rebekah Neumanns, she got them right. And it was, it was incredible to witness as someone who really hasn't witnessed it up close. Um, but it meant that Lee was working like a maniac and then I had to fly back by myself because I couldn't, I couldn't no longer fly and I was delivering in LA, uh, and Lee stayed for three more weeks. And, um, I actually went into, I had my baby came early and I went into labor like five days after he came back. 

Katey Rich: Um, well, how was your, how are you guys feeling as a household now that the show is over and the final episode is about to air as we talk? 

Emily Jane Fox: Um, as a household?

Katey Rich: You can speak for Lee as much as you want to. 

Emily Jane Fox: I, I'm not going to speak for Lee. I will, I will speak for me and I will say that, um, it's so weird because this has been such a part of our life and existence and because Lee was working like such a mad man to get this right, uh, it's a weird that it's just like, it's just done. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. 

Emily Jane Fox: Um, but it's such a weird, you work so hard and for so long. I think, I don't know. I've been working on this for like two and a half years, something like that. Then it's just like, it's just done. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. 

Emily Jane Fox: Um, but I also think that like, it, things when, when they're streaming live longer, right. Because people come to it, we come to shows that people are talking about all the time like so late. And we just, it takes a while to catch up on stuff and whatever. So I think it lives in a way that maybe like something that is airing on HBO at the time doesn't, doesn't totally live after it's done. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. 

Emily Jane Fox: But it's weird. It's a weird thing. And, and, um, I live with a maniac who is... all he wants to know- he's in production on another show right now and all he wants to figure out is what he's doing next. So, um, it's, it's, uh, it's figuring out what comes next and where the line is. And the thing that I'm so curious about from him is do you want to do another show based on real people? 

Katey Rich: Yeah.

Emily Jane Fox: Because it's a totally different animal. And, um, it is the time where our jobs have been the most similar, which is cool and also scary to watch for somebody else because I know how hard it is and how much pressure it is to get things right when you're writing about someone who exists in the world. 

Katey Rich: Can I talk about this episode specifically, and I'm going to not know who I want to talk about, but the woman who shows up to play the Crisis PR rep, uh, who is also giving Adam some real talk, um, that he might actually listen to. Um, and she tells him like, you're paying me to be dramatic that's why it's called Crisis PR. Um, I love her. I want you- do you know who that actress is? 

Richard Lawson: Um, I don't, I'm assuming it's a theater person.

Katey Rich: I had a hunch she must be some kind of like theater veteran. 

Richard Lawson: Because, you know, this was a New York production and we had, um, Julie White earlier in the season, uh, as someone screwed over by Rebekah. Um, but yeah, she's great and I think that like, it, that, the introduction, the brief introduction of, of that crisis PR company, um, is so- oh, it's Kate Jennings Grant. Yeah, she's a, she's a big theater actor. 

Katey Rich: See. 

Richard Lawson: Um, is so funny because even in those short scenes, especially when they're in the Neumann's home and Rebekah's running around freaking out about the couch and the floors and everything, and Adam sort of jokingly says, "I'm paying you a million dollars an hour." But it's like, maybe he is? Is you see, here's a whole other cottage industry that has popped up alongside like a remora fish, these bigger things, and they are thriving off of it. And it just, you get another, a little glimpse into like how, you know, we talk about you and I, a lot about award season and how there's a whole cottage industry. It's shantytowns that spring up around every award show with parties and brand sponsorships and all that stuff and it's no different with this. You know, a crisis PR company that demands a huge fee can only exist if companies like WeWork exist.

Katey Rich: You know, I'm just looking through Kate Jennings Grant's, uh, IMDB page and she's also been in _Billions_ as has Campbell Scott. I wonder how extensive the overlap is. Like I know that, um, _Super Pumped_ is the show made by the people who make _Billions,_ but as these two New York shows set in finance world, so many _Billions_.

Richard Lawson: As long as there's financial malfeasance, New York theater actors will get good TV work. I guess. 

Katey Rich: And then we can be very happy for them in the process.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. You know, they're artists. They're, they're, they're, that's a good kind of profit off of this, this, uh, terrible, uh, ecosystem. 

Katey Rich: Yeah, that's true. They're the ones who are, the theater, the supportive New York theaters the one true good of, um, WeWork. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. There are the mother courages, you know, carrying their wagons through the, the war torn lands, selling their wares.

Katey Rich: Um, how did you feel about how, um, Miguel ended in this episode and his arc on the show? Cause he, you know, he's the third co-founder of WeWork, he stuck with the company after the Neumann's left, um, and he has this, I thought this nice little moment with, uh, with Adam when we kind of see him last. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. I, I guess I haven't really done enough reading into Miguel because he, you know, he's not the dynamic leader that, that Adam is and that the show really wants you to pay attention to. But... 

Katey Rich: Yeah. 

Richard Lawson: But Miguel, I just I still don't know. You know, I'm sort of ambivalent. It's like on the one hand he allowed a lot of this to happen and was complicit in a lot of it happening. On the other, maybe because he got invested so early, he felt 'I can't just leave' because I now have a lot at stake here. I think he, you know, has children at some point maybe. 

Katey Rich: Oh he bought that, um, found some fancy artwork. 

Richard Lawson: Right, yeah exactly. So, yeah and, and I, you know, he stayed on for a little while later, right? Um, and then in that coda at the end of the episode it said that they, they celebrated the IPO together, so I guess there's still a relationship there. And that gives me a little bit of doubt about, you know, how good Miguel was. I mean, he was definitely portrayed on the show as the more decent one, but maybe, maybe that was kind of hiding something. 

Katey Rich: Well, but also that, you know, when he just tells Adam he loves him and you kind of feel the genuine affection between them. Like, yes, he clearly was overlooking a lot of bad stuff in that process, but you get why you would stand by your friend even when your friend is being so clearly, um, a monster.

Richard Lawson: Yeah and there's something about that sentiment where it's like, maybe you can strip away all of the bad business stuff and see the person at the center of that. Like I would hope that we could all at least extend some of that empathy. And I think that's reflected also in, in the scene, the crisis PR scene in the house when the photos of Adam walking barefoot in the city get leaked and become viral and everyone's kind of like, what were you thinking? All this stuff. And, and Rebekah screams, she's like, "He grew up in a kibbutz he likes to walk around barefoot." Like, what's the big deal, you know? And I kind of...

Katey Rich: I was on her side right there.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, I like how that zeroes in on like, look, this is a human being. 

Katey Rich: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: Who does have context and came from somewhere and some of these quirks are not just like meant to grift investors, they actually are a genuine organic part of him. And I dunno, I think it was nice that she could have spoke up for that humanity briefly in that, that scene.

Katey Rich: I feel like that's something that _Dropout_ did really well too in a really different way because all the things that made Elizabeth Holmes feel human made her just weirder and, um, you know, what she did feel even darker. Um, but emphasizing that like the people who pull off these massive schemes like start from a place of being insecure or like having a thing in their childhood that went wrong that they're trying to fix. And it makes them more interesting and it makes what they do more interesting 'cause if you know the real story, you know how this is going to turn out. Seeing how this person gets from point A to B is what's interesting. And both of those shows did such a good job of tracking that. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. And I think there, they really reflect how, you know, that, that, that culture we were talking about about like making life work and work life and, and, and, and putting this positive spin on things. I mean, you know, uh, Gordon Gekko walking into these environments would be like, that would be a unicorn. You'd be like, what is this guy? Like he is so nakedly, obviously evil. But we, we have sort of evolved for the better or not, you know, toward a place where we are sort of centering humanity, um, even if those people at the center are, are sort of doing bad or cruel things. So, yeah, I think that like getting to know the human side of, of Elizabeth and Adam, um, is an instructive part of how we look at these companies and what they did and their failures and everything. I don't know that I feel that same way towards Travis Kalanick though. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. Do you think you could have in a show that was maybe more interested in doing that to his character?

Richard Lawson: Yeah. I mean, I was talking about this last week, uh, and I think that while I initially appreciated that _Super Pumped_ started in medias res, you know, it was not a show about the start of Uber. By the end I was like, you know, I kind of wish we knew pre Uber Travis better or at all, actually. Because it didn't really feel on _Super Pumped_ that there was really a character arc. That show I felt was much more about a company, whereas _The Dropout_ and _WeCrashed_ we're much more about the people behind the company. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. These two incredibly strange relationships, really like their, their, their love stories in this very bizarre way; both _The Dropout_ and WeCrashed. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. And _Super Pumped_ certainly was not that. Even though, of course, you know, there was the real life thing of Bonnie Kalanick dying and, and, you know, there, there was actual real life stuff in there, but, um, I don't think that that show was aiming to be the character study that the other two were.

Katey Rich: Yeah. 

Richard Lawson: Let's go now to, Katey, your interview with O-T Fagbenle.

Katey Rich: Well thanks for talking to us, it feels like we've been watching you all season on _WeCrashed,_ and this is going to be our final episode of the season because this is the final episode of _WeCrashed._ Um, but I feel like this is a great episode to talk to you about, because, uh, in the _WeCrashed_ finale you have like the both best and worst pep talk in an office that I've ever seen. Because it's, it's this great moment of being like, you're just working to make money and get out of here. And everyone is so skeptical, by the end you kind of win them over. It's a, how did it feel trying to rally the troops in that cynical, but correct way? 

O-T Fagbenle: I mean, to be honest when I first read the speech and it says, you know, in the script at the end of the speech, you know, they're cheering and I'm like, how though, that's a tall task you've asked me to do is to go, 'oh, by the way, your, the kind of person who signs up to being part of it inspirational cult-like thing.' And now I'm just telling you to go to work for money and get out of here and then you're going to be cheering, but we have some great direction and, you know with some tweaks and stuff. Yeah, it was a challenge, but it was, Cameron's such a fun part to play. And I feel like, you know, it's easy to have like mixed feelings when you hear him because you're like, you know, you're such a dick. But you're kinda right, you know? 

Katey Rich: Yeah. So my co-host Richard Lawson and I talked about this in this episode where I feel like Cameron has made me sympathize with the finance guys and feel like they're correct. And this happens a lot in the last episode where even you can get like Jamie Dimon coming in and being right. And I'm like, I don't want to sympathize with these guys because they're the finance guys, but they're the correct ones. 

O-T Fagbenle: Right. 

Katey Rich: Did you, did you feel conflicted about that, how much you can side with them? 

O-T Fagbenle: Well, in a weird way, I, the high school I went to in London, um, was a bunch of my friends from the middle class Indian community, they all went into finance. So weirdly I've got like half of my friends are like artists, half the friends are like hardcore capitalist, you know, like city boys. And, um, and so I've been around them and, and, and, and even when I'm with him I have conflicting feelings. I'm like, oh gosh, your politics annoy me, but you're like a really nice guy. So, um, so yeah, I, you know, I think that that's everybody, they've got dichotomy in them haven't they. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. I mean, is this world, was this world something you knew anything about before going into this? Other than being with finance guys? 

O-T Fagbenle: Well, yeah, I wasn't really educated in, uh, WeWork specifically, but, you know, I studied economics. I was going to study, I was going to go and study economics, uh, uh, university instead of drama. And it's just like a coin flip at the ended up, me up doing drama. So I've always been interested in that world. Well, I'm interested in finance, but, um... 

Katey Rich: Okay. So what, how, what was the learning curve then? 'Cause you, you're charged with a lot of exposition in this, especially in some of the, like the earlier episodes where you show up of just explaining to people like me who don't know what an S1 is like, how any of this works. Was that a steep learning curve for you? 

O-T Fagbenle: Right. Oh yeah. Yeah, for sure. But to be fair, I kind of like, I'm a research person. One of the things I love about being an actor is it gives me an excuse to research things I didn't know before. So it's almost like whatever I'm doing, I always do a bunch of research. I don't even know how you slip into my acting. I just like, I'm into kind of thing. So yeah, I did a bunch of research for it. Um, I mean, listen, don't question me up about it, you'll expose me. But fundamentally though, I, I feel like my job as an actor, yes, you have to understand like some historical and like technical intricacies, but most of the time these are tool for kind of like character and emotional, uh, interplay. And, and that's the thing that I really get into. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. I mean, I think what's important about Cameron as he emerges as a character in this is that he's like the likable asshole as we were talking about and kind of helps tip the scales to being like... because Adam Neumann is like the charismatic leader who we've been following as a show goes the and then this other guy shows up to be like, wait a second. Like, this is all bullshit. And you get to be this like really strong, confident presence throughout the show. And I don't know what it's like to try to... how do you turn yourself into the guy who walks into any room and can like batten down every doubt or be like, 'No, I'm right. Like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna run this room.' That's a, um, the, the competency project I think is fascinating. 

O-T Fagbenle: Oh, thanks a lot. Yeah. You know what, I mean I guess there's a number of things, both as an actor and as a character, but I think on, you know, like boring, like actory nonsense talk like I, I created a backstory for myself, which involved my father and blah, blah, blah, where the Adam Neumann type character was like, like, I hated those types of people. I hated the people who manipulated and, and stole from people and, and, you know, so going in there, I wasn't going in there trying to project confidence. You know, it sounds like Freud psychobabble, but in many ways, from the character's perspective I was going in there to confront my father and I was going to make right. And so I immediately, I'm going in there with such a primal urge to dominate and to make right, that, that, I guess then, then that looks like confidence, but it's like... 

Katey Rich: I feel like that fits so much with what the show is doing too though. 'Cause you know, with the Neumanns it's showing kind of their like wounds as people and how it turned into what they did here. So you doing that kind of character work like fits with the vibe of the show is, and I don't know if you talked to the showrunners or directors about that kind of stuff, or if that's just something you pull out for yourself. 

O-T Fagbenle: Yeah, no, I, I did that stuff, I mean, to be honest, I'm surprised that I even told you, because most of that stuff I don't even talk about ever in interviews or to anybody it's just like- 

Katey Rich: All right we got an exclusive, thank you.

O-T Fagbenle: I just kind of like do a lot of kind of, cause, I guess I'm fascinated by what draws people to act the way they do. And for the most, in most instances no one thinks they're evil, no one thinks they're are doing bad. They think they're doing right. It feels intuitively good to them on some level. They rationalize it. And I think it all comes from kind of some early childhood stuff that they're just trying to unpack and break apart. Like, what is it that makes someone act like this. 

Katey Rich: Yeah.

O-T Fagbenle: Yeah, but, but I don't think it's interesting to be honest or necessarily useful to the director or the writer. I think that's just like actors work. You have to do it in your little box and then go perform. 

Katey Rich: Yeah they want you to show up and just do it right and whatever gets you there is whatever gets you there. 

O-T Fagbenle: Yeah. And also it's sometimes so, too complex and also sometimes too personal to kind of unpack with a director. They've got other things to do with their time, I'll just do my work. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. I mean, it's really easy to watch the show and have hindsight of 2020 and say, 'Oh, I would've been like Cameron Lautner. I would have seen through all of this.' Um, and I wonder with what you do know about finance, if, if you felt that way doing this, or if you kind of understood why people got swept away by the promise at WeWork? 

O-T Fagbenle: I mean listen, I'm such a fool. I'd probably be swept away as well. I love a good hero's story. Take me with you. 

Katey Rich: That's why you're an actor not an economist I guess. 

O-T Fagbenle: Exactly, exactly that's why the coin flip worked in my favor, but I guess the question is though is like how do you, how do you know that there's so many things like Netflix, I guess, comes to my mind. There's something which is like improbable. Like if you think about the models of how TV work and then you just pour billions and billions and billions into Netflix and even till today, but even before now, people were like this is unsustainable. You're, you're not making as much money as you're spending. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. 

O-T Fagbenle: Like how we can accurately tell apart those kinds of like excessive exuberance of capitalism and like this unicorn business idea, I'm not smart enough to probably tell the difference. 

Katey Rich: Well, and I think it's gambling, right? Like, I feel like that's something we've come around on this show discussing it, like nobody knows. And so they just, they have enough money to put a hundred million in on something and if it doesn't make money, then whatever. Whereas we all learn in high school economics, like you have to make more money than you spend. And those rules don't apply at this level, which feels crazy to me still after watching the show.

O-T Fagbenle: I, I know, exactly. And, you know, and I wonder if you did the autopsy on, you know, I don't want to pick out any companies, but one of these unicorn... that if you did that, were they absolutely being exaggerating how much they were going to make and exaggerate. You know, like I kind of feel that that's almost part, of course, big business and capitalism to kind of do those, and look, you're talking to someone who's really not that smart about this kind of thing. So this is just my outside ignorant perspective. 

Katey Rich: Yeah, that's all we're doing on this show. Yeah, I feel like this, at the end of watching _WeCrashed_, and we were watching _The Dropout_ and _Super Pumped_ as well about all these different unicorns being like, 'have we, has anyone learned not to do this again?' And I think the lessons just been like, no people are gonna still gamble because when it works out you make so much money that it's worth it.

O-T Fagbenle: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I think you're absolutely right. 

Katey Rich: Um, so you, you have this ending at the same time that _The First Lady_ is starting, which I think is fascinating and I was thinking about the walking into the room of confidence thing in the context of playing Barack Obama. And I haven't seen _The First Lady_ yet, so I don't know how those apply to each other, but is there any, any overlap between these two performances or your approach to them that you can see? 

O-T Fagbenle: Um, well, I don't know. I feel like they're quite different personalities, but, um, I guess it was, it's much more of a challenge. I mean, in a weird way that Cameron Lautner character is someone that I just have naturally, like I know that dude. He's in me somewhere I just have to go I find it. Whereas the challenge of Barack, the technical challenge of Barack is so much more specific and one that hasn't taken on before. Because with Cameron, I can decide how he walks and how he talks. I can decide that sometimes he drops his R's and sometimes he doesn't. Does he use the global stop or some other technical dialect? But with Barack I'm, I'm pinned by a very certain kind of architecture and, and so it's a poses a lot more of a technical challenge. And, uh, yeah, so I didn't know how that affects confidence wise, but, but yeah, it's a fundamentally different challenge, I think. 

Katey Rich: Well, and on _WeCrashed_ you're working with Jared Leto who is doing a lot of that same kind of trying to capture a well-known real person and that, that level of specificity and you were getting to make up your character. So it's kind of like watching those two different approaches to performance in the same scene when you're working on that show. Um, even though I'm sure you guys approach it very differently. 

O-T Fagbenle: Yeah, no, that's a very good point. And look, up until today I don't really know a lot about how Adam Neumann speaks. And I don't know a lot about how he talks and I don't know what he looks like when he walks from behind. We know all these things about Barack and I think, I imagine on some level that plays, that would certainly play into me of how much license I would feel in playing a character, depending on how well known they were. You know, I'd still want to be kind of faithful to what I've learned there, but there's so much more artistic interpretation I think if you're playing someone who not many people are very aware of. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. I mean, you've got these two shows we were just talking about. _The Handmaid's Tale_ I think is also coming back soon. You kind of are in three shows at the same time where you're like, someone could be like, "Oh, I know you from..." and you won't know what they're going to say next. And you've been working for a long time, but I wonder if this is kind of a unique point where you're really spread in so many places and making a mark in these different ways on all these different projects. 

O-T Fagbenle: Uh, yeah, I guess so in some ways. I, I try as much as I can to disassociate myself from the kind of razzmatazz of the industry kind of thing. Of like what, what does that ultimately mean that I'm on these shows as opposed to like doing some really good plays someplace, and, um, I, uh, sorry, I started getting... I don't know how to stop that, but um. 

Katey Rich: Oh yeah, no, I got your, uh, is that like a airport luggage carousel? I can't figure out what's in the background in your photo. 

O-T Fagbenle: Um, but yeah. Um, wait, sorry. I lost myself, what was I saying? 

Katey Rich: Oh just that you're not thinking too much about people recognizing you I guess. 

O-T Fagbenle: Yeah I try not to kind of thing, but yeah, it is in many ways it is very exciting. And lots of people have said lots of lovely things both about Barack and about Cameron and _WeCrashed_ and so that's always very lovely. Um, but yeah. 

Katey Rich: Did being in a Marvel movie make you have to like prepare your brain or like brace for something different just for how incredibly visible those movies are? 

O-T Fagbenle: Yeah. You know what, I think I was actually quite anxious about it in some ways because, you know, I thought, "oh, I don't... I mean, like, it's weird because on some level, like you're fame helps you get access to good jobs or on other levels it's kind of can be obtrusive. And so I was like, oh God, Marvel sounds very obtrusive, but funny enough, it wasn't too bad. I don't know if it's because it came out in the pandemic or whatever, but I was, I was ready for the onslaught of fans and it was a trickle. 

Katey Rich: Well it's when you're wearing a mask everywhere. I think like when, when the mask mandates go away and people will start recognize you in airports, that's when the, um, the onslaught is going to begin.

O-T Fagbenle: Right, right. You're right. I'll just have to keep on wearing a mask. 

Katey Rich: Um, so we've been covering, uh, _WeCrashed_ along with _The Dropout_ and _Super Pumped_ on this season and I'm curious if like any of the other tech shows have caught your attention just as a viewer or, you know, it's comparing the work that you guys are doing. Does this, does the overall like tech scandal saga interest you at all or is it just a _WeCrashed _specific thing? 

O-T Fagbenle: You know what, and I, this is going to be very highly disappointing I think for people, but, um, I don't really watch that much TV. I I've got such a short attention span. I've been, my YouTube is eroded my ability to watch... so I did make it through, um, _Station Eleven_, which I really enjoyed. Which obviously isn't tech. I mean, maybe it's the end of the tech. 

Katey Rich: That requires an attention span though, you know, _Station Eleven_ like you really get to sit down with it to feel the impact of that show. Give yourself credit. 

O-T Fagbenle: You know what, I'm a, I'm a, I love the apocalypse genre. The end of the world dystopian genre is my jam. So, um, I do watch those, but yeah, so I haven't really been. Uh, yeah, a part of those tech- well, I guess what's funny to me is that I am, I do see absolutely the scandal of WeWork, but I'm like, there is a scandal that there's not healthcare coverage for so many millions of people, there's a scandal with COVID data. And I know it's not like what about it, but just on the scale of what I think I should actually be outraged by... 

Katey Rich: Yeah. 

O-T Fagbenle: We conducted a war, you know, the destabilized country. So like, it's, it's hard to me to get up into a fervor of fury and outrage when I'm, when I'm trying to, like, I don't know, have a, uh, a priority list about rage.

Katey Rich: Well yeah, and I think my, my theory is that there's so many like huge consequential bad decisions, like, you know, starting a war or Donald Trump tries to steal the election and the people and the people who do it don't ever face consequences. And then you see something like the Neumann's where it's a smaller scale thing, but somehow it's easier to be mad at them because they're not as important. And it like, it can feel more visceral. I think we transfer our anger about larger injustices to these smaller ones and somehow it can get catharsis from that somehow. 

O-T Fagbenle: Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. But I, to some extent, I think that catharsis is dangerous because what is the point of your feelings if it's not to enact useful action. And so if I'm getting, getting all these useful feelings of anger and rage and disappointment, and I'm not going to my local counselor, I'm not going to changing my eating habits, or like, and instead of getting angry at this immigrant, or this, you know, big tech guy, I, I just think I that's what I'm trying to work against- mitigate for myself. Cause I can, go all right let me really try and reserve my outrage for those most outrageous. 

Katey Rich: Well, listen WeWork was a big promoter of vegetarianism, which is better for climate change. Like maybe they had some good ideas in there and what the, uh, excessive drinking and spending and all that stuff. And didn't- 

O-T Fagbenle: Yeah and if like - sorry go on. 

Katey Rich: Oh no, just the idea that now Cameron Lautner, the guy who was the biggest skeptic on the show, now you're like, 'okay, wait, WeWork was great.' You turned me back around. 

O-T Fagbenle: I know, I know. It's funny. I've thought about that, you know, as I was playing the character. I was like, O-T is like, oh my God, this is bad, and that definitely by the way, just because something isn't on the top of the outrage, it doesn't mean you should do something about it. Like we should show justice and criminality where we find it. But yeah, I, Cameron had to be very upset and that's why it was very useful to make it some more personal in Cameron's backstory as to why he would be so triggered by this situation.

Katey Rich: Yeah. I mean, you think about injustices we face from day to day life, and it's someone cutting you off in line that makes you the angriest as opposed to the larger scale things. So it's always kind of personal when it comes down to it right? 

O-T Fagbenle: Yeah, exactly. 

Katey Rich: Um, well, that's kinda all I had. I wanted to, um, I know, I think you're in production, so thank you for taking time to, um, talk to me and flash back to making _WeCrashed,_ it's been really fun to watch. I'm really grateful for all of you guys for making it. 

O-T Fagbenle: Uh, thanks a lot. Yeah, I have a lot of fun doing it and it's been great chatting with you.

Katey Rich: You know, I think it'd be interesting to watch _the Social Network_ after all of this, um, which as far as I remember, I think I rewatched it a couple of years ago, is still a very, very good movie and from a completely different time in the way that we think about tech companies and Facebook in particular. Um, but I think that the, the way that it handled relationships in that movie was a really similar part of its power between Mark Zuckerberg and Eduardo Saverin and I, I wonder if it would look different having gone through these journeys on these longer shows with more recent stories. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. And it also makes you think, I mean, because _The Social Network_ came out what 2010? 

Katey Rich: 2010, yeah. 

Richard Lawson: So Facebook had only been around for like six years. 

Katey Rich: I know. 

Richard Lawson: And we've had 12 additional years now of, of Facebook really, you know, doing the world domination thing that has a lot of people nervous or, or more than nervous. Um, so yeah, I haven't really watched that movie recently, but I think in watching these shows and then thinking about Facebook, because that's definitely, uh, I mean, I dunno how charismatic Mark Zuckerberg is, but he is the sort of single figurehead of this thing. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. 

Richard Lawson: Um, I wonder where that story, if it ever ends will end and, and for Mark and for the company, I don't know. Maybe it will be talking about a show about that in 10 years.

Katey Rich: Yeah. Even if this boom of tech downfall shows is, is ending now 'cause I think the, these three running at the same time has made it more than a few people be like, 'okay, like let's, there's other stories, right?' And it's all about, uh, real life murders are all the other ones. Um, but that, that story of people who have an idea who go into business together and their relationship falls apart or changes in some way, that's an eternal story. The, you know, there's been stories about that well before tech companies existed, and I think that there could be really interesting stories to tell about Peloton or, you know, whatever the new unicorn that we don't know about and won't get rich off of will be... those will last. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah, _The Wing_, you know. 

Katey Rich: Oh my God, _The Wing_. Yeah I'd watch that movie, TV show. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, because I don't, again, I don't think that, that this broader narrative of startup stuff is anywhere close to over. You know, um, maybe the rise in NFTs and cryptocurrencies, which I don't understand a single bit, uh, maybe there's, that is some sort of sea change that will push... maybe that's more sort of about private investing and less about like leading a bunch of people into the promise land. Um, but I don't know if I want to see cryptocurrency dramatized on premium cable. 

Katey Rich: No, I, I got like a pit in my stomach the minute you brought that up, but here we'll be in two years having, um, we'll have Nick Bilton back on again to explain it to us very slowly over and over again until we need to get it.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. Now I want to know what Adam Neumann thinks about cryptocurrency and NFTs. 

Katey Rich: Oh, he's probably got a pixel of something. The, is it a, it's a gorilla, chimp? 

Richard Lawson: A bored ape or whatever. 

Katey Rich: Bored ape, that's what it is. Um, yeah, everyone should take their financial advice from us, obviously. 

Richard Lawson: Speaking of we, you and I, Katey, before we recorded, had had a question about the end of _WeCrashed_, um, about just how much money the Neumann's got, uh, because obviously Masa ends the episode by saying "you're not going to get any of that money." um, and then we, end title cards learned that everyone sued each other, basically. Um, so it does seem, _The New York Times_ reported in February of last year and then updated in November of last year, um, that there, there was a settlement reached between Neumann and SoftBank at least. I don't know about Neumann and the employees or whatever other lawsuits were pending. Um, so apparently, according to _The New York Times_, the settlement ultimately went down to $480 million. 

Katey Rich: Oh God those poor people.

Richard Lawson: I know right. That's about, that's literally half of what originally was quoted. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. 

Richard Lawson: So they're still sitting pretty, but, um, they are not the billionaires that they seemed poised to be, uh, right when they exited the company.

Katey Rich: Yeah and the title cards talking about what they're, you know, how they're both kind of eyeing further projects. I mean, this is the, the downside of making something that's relatively recent, you know, that We, _WeWork_, uh, collapse was in 2019. Uh, there's not really a satisfying conclusion because their stories are still ongoing. Did that feel odd to you that that was where we had to leave off? 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. In a way. I mean, I think that, because _WeCrashed_ was so much about these two people, I mean, it was marketed as a love story and I think successfully was, um, they're still lurking around somewhere. You know, like I think their movements have been lightly reported on, um, in recent, the last year and a half let's say. Um, but I don't think we know a ton and I'm just sort of now really curious. I don't know that I necessarily need another season of the Neumann, you know, saga, but, but I think... I don't know, I'm choosing to believe that it's almost intentional for this show, which I think has been so thoughtful about so many things to make it feel a little bit anticlimactic where it's like, yeah, no, they just kind of got away with a bunch of money. That's how the story ended. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. 

Richard Lawson: You know like I wish that we had a tidier sort of thing about justice and whatever to, to present to you, but that's not how this works. Usually the people who, um, you know, as Masa says, the one with all the money is the one who wins and, and, and, and Neumanns don't have as much money as he does, but they have plenty. Um, and so they win and that's the end of that story for them. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. Well, did you ever see the Soderbergh movie that came out last year, _No Sudden Move_? You know, it had the most generic title and that, that movie ends, um, you know, slight spoiler with being like, 'oh yeah, this was a whole big conspiracy with all the automakers and, and they got away with it and like ruined the environment as a result, so bye.' You know you can do it right and have a story end with the bad people getting away with the bad thing, which is what this is. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. I mean, you think about, um, the Todd Haynes movie with Mark Ruffalo uh, Deep- _Dark Water?_

Katey Rich: _Dark Waters?_ 

Richard Lawson: _Dark Waters_, plural. 

Katey Rich: Uh, yes. _Dark Waters_ plural. 

Richard Lawson: Because there's the other one with Jennifer Connelly, _Dark Water_. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. And then the _Deep Water_ is Ana de Armas.

Richard Lawson: Um, but that's another one where there is a minor victory, you know, in this one lawsuit. Similar to Erin Brockovich. But the, the machine of, you know, callous capitalism turns on, and I think that, um, I guess a little bit of that makes me question my interest in these figures because as they, as the kids say, 'they stay winning' and we do not. In almost indirect relationship with their victories, other people have to suffer. Um, so I don't know, maybe, uh, maybe I'm ready for a break about trying to put myself in the headspace of, uh, these particular, uh, type of people. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. That is an interesting idea of like, what do we move on to from here? Um, because like, there are scammer shows, there are murder shows. Um, they're like, what's the pallet cleanser? Either something you literally are watching or just what you want to do to, to move on from these guys. 

Richard Lawson: I think fiction. You know, pure fiction, uh, not based on a true story. I, I think that, you know, obviously a show like _WeCrashed _took narrative indulgences, as did _The Dropout,_ as did _Super Pumped._ They all do, so there's, you know, we, we were served some fantasy in a way. But I think I would be, I'm ready and I think maybe a show like _Severance_, which has, you know, comments a lot on work culture, but is blessedly not really set in our world. Um, I find it a lot easier to enjoy on a simple level. And, um, these, I felt these shows, I felt like I had to constantly be considering what the real world implications, uh, were, and that, you know, that made for sort of a different kind of viewing than, um, I think I prefer. 

Katey Rich: Yeah, something that takes you away from the real consequences of the world that we still live in. That's a really good way to think about it. Yeah, I, I, I read a, I read a teen romance book last week, that felt great. No consequences on, on this earth at all. 

Richard Lawson: What was the book? I'm curious. 

Katey Rich: It's called _Meet Me at Midnight_. I picked it up at the bookstore, The Ripped Bodice in Los Angeles, which our colleague David Canfield took me to. Um, uh, highly recommended both the bookstore and the book.

Richard Lawson: Oh, okay. Good. Well, that's, that's a good tip. 

Katey Rich: You didn't know this was going to turn into a YA podcast, did you? 

Richard Lawson: Well, if people want, I published a YA novel in 2018 called _All We Can Do is Wait._ You can read that, there's some romance. Mostly doomed, but, but it's in there. 

Katey Rich: Oh, it's got some good romance though. The parts of it there they're romantic or very romantic. 

Richard Lawson: Well, good. Um, all right. Do you have anything else to say about _WeCrashed_ or any of these other shows before we close out? 

Katey Rich: Well, we're going to talk about Emmy season on _Little Gold Men,_ as we do this week. And, um, as I said on this week's show, I'm going to be pulling really hard for Anne Hathaway as this goes on. So, um, you know, I hope this show continues to get recognized. I think it does stand out from the pack of just like a tech scam show and, um, I guess it will be our job to beat the drum for it as the season goes on.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, I agree. I think it was really artfully done and, um, I think... I love the score. Uh, I thought it looked great. It looked expensive. You know, and, and, uh, and, and, you know, Hathaway and Leto were obviously the big standouts, but all, I think all the performances were really strong. So I hope that it does not get lost in the the scammer shuffle as Emmy voters and whoever else, uh, starts to assess the year in TV. 

Katey Rich: Yeah, we should shout out the orchestral cover of Katy Perry's "Roar" that is very prominent in this episode. 

Richard Lawson: And kind of beautiful? 

Katey Rich: Yeah, I know. 

Richard Lawson: Like, I really liked it in a way that I was like, 'can I download that?' 

Katey Rich: I know, I'm going to get the _WeCrashed_, uh, I hope it's on Apple Music at the very least. 

Richard Lawson: I'm sure it is. 

Katey Rich: Should we talk about, uh, I mean, _Still Watching_ will be on hiatus after this, um, but I don't think- don't remove us from your podcast feeds because there's obviously always television to talk about. Um, and you know, we're always taking recommendations for what you want to hear us talk about too. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah, you can email us at stillwatchingpod@gmail.com, um, if you have any ideas of what you'd like us to cover in the next, you know, the second half of 2022. 

Katey Rich: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: Um, there are some, there's a lot coming down the pipe, so, uh, I think we have options, but yeah I think maybe... 

Katey Rich: We may only do one show next time. 

Richard Lawson: I think maybe we'll do one show and maybe keep it something where we don't have to do a ton of ancillary research about the real people. 

Katey Rich: And learn what an IPO is. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah, when you're talking about _Game of Thrones_ or _Succession_ you can kind of just shoot the shit, but-

Katey Rich: Oh no. Are you kidding? Do you know how much- Joanna Robinson did so much _Game of Thrones_ research for these shows. 

Richard Lawson: Well that's, that's true. Okay. I should maybe- _Game of Thrones was not the example_. 

Katey Rich: We drafted off of her knowledge there. It's more complicated than the stock market I think. 

Richard Lawson: Exactly. Uh, well, until we figure out a show, Katey, where can people find you? 

Katey Rich: Uh, at vanityfair.com and on the _Little Gold Men_ podcast as always, with you, Richard. Uh where we'll um, we'll- if you want to hear us keep talking, that's the place to do it.

Richard Lawson: Yeah and you're @kateyrich on Twitter I believe, yes? 

Katey Rich: Yes, @kateyrich on Twitter also. 

Richard Lawson: Yes, im @rilaws and vf.com and _Little Gold Men_ and all that. So thank you all for sticking with us this season. Uh, and until we talk again, happy investing.