Katey Rich: Hello, and welcome to _Little Gold Men_ the award season podcast from _Vanity Fair_. 

Intro: "It's such an honor to present this next award." "And here are the nominees." "And the Oscar goes to..." "And the Oscar goes to..." "And I can't deny the fact that you like me. Right now, you like me." "I'm the king of the world!" "There's a mistake, _Moonlight_, you guys won best picture." 

Katey Rich: I am Katey Rich. I am here with Richard Lawson. 

Richard Lawson: Hello. 

Katey Rich: With David Canfield. 

David Canfield: Hi. 

Katey Rich: With Rebecca Ford. 

Rebecca Ford: Hi. 

Katey Rich: And once again with Chris Murphy. 

Chris Murphy: Hi, people are going to get sick of me, I fear.

Katey Rich: You got to ride this as long as it'll take you. 

Chris Murphy: I'll take it. 

Katey Rich: This week we're continuing our pride flashback series with a look at _BPM,_ the 2017 French film about Act Up Paris. Uh, and Richard and Chris will be joined by some fellow, uh, Broadway dorks for a Tony's preview because that's an award show that's coming up right now. Uh, un-like the Emmy's, which are so far in the future. Um, but first, before we get into any of that, there's been some news over at the Academy. Uh, there is going to be a new CEO of the Academy. Um, and David, I'm gonna throw it to you pretty much right away, since when I saw this as a rumor, you had information about what this all means, and I would like you to share it with me and everyone else. 

David Canfield: It means that those inside the Academy are pretty happy from sources I've spoken with. Uh, Bill Kramer was CEO of the Academy Museum, uh, and was really the, the figurehead behind getting that off the ground. So he's developed a lot of relationships and he's very proven, uh, in the specific areas that I think those within the organization we're hoping to see from, uh, the successor to Dawn, to Dawn Hudson as the CEO. Um, you know, I think the Academy is in a particularly perilous moment right now after last year's Oscars. The, not only handling of the, of what happened with Will Smith, but the communication bungles were so frequent and severe that I think all involved look at Kramer as a really smart, fresh start, who knows a lot of talent, knows a lot of people, uh, was very instrumental in one of the Academy's bigger PR booms of late and, um... 

Katey Rich: Being the museum? 

David Canfield: Yeah, being the museum. And I think that they're satisfied. This was, this is what they were hoping to happen. 

Katey Rich: When you say fresh start. I mean, given that he's kind of already inside the house, like he's obviously a new person, but it seems like he's like a steady hand who has a little bit of a new direction, but nothing too crazy.

David Canfield: Exactly. I think in terms of fresh start, you're looking at somebody who is within that Academy umbrella, somebody that is seen as, you know, very competent and very personable. There were definitely some mixed feelings from what I gathered about Dawn's tenure generally. And so, I think everyone's just looking forward to a new chapter after everything that happened last year.

Rebecca Ford: Yeah. I think, you know, Dawn held that position for 11 years and through so much change, you know, some of it, most of it, obviously beyond her control, but I think she became such a polarizing figure just because she had to deal with Oscar's So White and diversifying the voter body and then envelope gate, and now the Will Smith slap, and there's been something almost every year. And, you know, even when the Academy Museum was taking forever to be built and costing so much money, I feel like a lot of the blame went to her. And then Kramer was actually brought in to sort of, not to replace her, but to replace the person who had been in charge of making that Academy Museum happen. And he kind of helped get it back on track. So I agree from everything I'm hearing too, it just feels like it's time for some, some fresh blood really, because, you know, Dawn had to be in charge of it for so long, and through so much turmoil. 

David Canfield: And to Rebecca's point, I mean, a good chunk of that was obviously out of Dawn's control. I mean, if you think about where the Oscars were 11 years ago, you're not going to even necessarily point to mishaps that happened on their stage, but just the dramatic changes in the way we watch and talk about movies. And the Oscars have certainly struggled to respond to a lot of that, but that doesn't necessarily mean that, um, say Bill Kramer would have handled it better. Um, but you know, having gone over those bumps, I think there's some hope that there is opportunity for a less bumpy next few years.

Katey Rich: I was interested reading The Ankler report about Bill Kramer, um, kind of when it was still rumored that he would be in there, and it pointed out that when the Academy Museum opened, there were a good number of people who thought that it omitted the Jewish history of Hollywood. I think probably as part of their efforts, you know, I went there a couple months ago and it, they really go out of their way to highlight like filmmakers of color and actors of color and places where Hollywood has failed those people. Um, but it said that, uh, we've heard that Kramer has worked hard to meet with and listen to critics and is busy evolving the museum to take these criticisms into account. And part of being CEO of the Academy, I think, is knowing that you're never going to make everybody happy because there's just always going to be someone complaining, but someone who's already had that experience of trying to smooth over ruffled feathers while keeping an eye on diversifying in the future, that seems like a really good balance. 

David Canfield: Yeah, definitely.

Katey Rich: So we're going to go onto our pride flashback for this week. And Chris, this was your pick to talk about _BPM_, a 2017 film that I have put here sort of as a fake chronological order deal because last week we talked about _Rebel Without a Cause_ from the fifties, and this movie is set in the early nineties, which makes it the, uh, the next earliest setting of the films we'll discuss. But this is a much more recent film, and I think you watch it for 10 minutes and you realize it can only be made now. But, um, Chris, why did this feel like of all the potential movies we could have discussed, why was this when you picked? 

Chris Murphy: Um, that's a great question, Katey, and I did start off by apologizing to our team for having to watch a two and a half hour French movie that is about the AIDS crisis. It's not the easiest to watch, but it is really, I think, a beautiful, beautiful film. And it sort of, as you said, although it was made in 2017, it captures a sort of a queer narrative and sort of a standard queer narrative that we've seen since sort of the eighties and nineties that used to sort of be like the only queer narrative that used to appear on screen in terms of, you know, capturing, you know, how devastating and frankly, horrific, and terrible the AIDS crisis was. I mean, we've seen it in a lot of different films in plays and musicals, _Angels in America_, _The Normal Heart_ by Larry Kramer. Uh, _The Inheritance_ most recently. I mean, _Rent_ is sort of the biggest Seminole one, I would say, at least for me as a musical theater head, um, and even _Philadelphia_, um, the Tom Hanks's, uh, Oscar winning film, so I just thought that like for pride and for... as a great way to sort of kick off and sort of like, look back while we move forward, I think _BPM_ is sort of a perfect film because it is, you know, it was made only five years ago in 2017, but it really is classic and a really, I think excellent entry in the genre of sort of a depressing and sad, but very vital and very necessary to watch clear narrative of how devastating the AIDS crisis was, and is still. 

Katey Rich: Richard, I want to throw to you because, uh, you put _BPM_ at the top of your top 10 list in 2017, um, and I'm imagining that you still stand by that. 

Richard Lawson: Oh yeah. Yeah. It's an AIDS movie that, you know, there are other things like it, but I think that what Robin Campillo does so beautifully is, is train that gays in one direction toward the Larry Kramer, the political action of _The Normal Heart,_ and then, you know, we have this one, I mean, staggering scene of death, but before that, and even kind of in that he allows for so much life. You know, and I think that oftentimes in, in movies from the eighties or nineties about people living with AIDS, the sick person kind of gets a little cordoned off into that sadness and that, uh, you know, and it's people concerned about them and, you know, uh, they're, they're a little bit removed from, from life. And in this though, I mean, you know, there's sex, there's a really, really moving hand job scene in a hospital. Like- 

Katey Rich: Really moving. 

Richard Lawson: I think that the way that Robin Campillo just uses all parts of the human experience to, um, locate us in this very fraught time in Paris is just so beautiful and, and ingenious. Like it's a really fresh approach I think to this material. And, um, yeah, it's still very resonant five years later. And the rumor is that Jury President at Cannes, Pedro Almodóvar really wanted to give it the Palme d'Or, but some of the other people in the jury didn't feel quite so hot on it, and so, uh, they gave it to the consensus pick. 

Chris Murphy: It's - I totally agree in terms of like, sort of the joy and the clear joy and sort of the sexiness of this film. And it's one of those things where I feel like a lot of people recently have complained that like, we need to get away from, you know, the sort of overwrought and overplayed sort of AIDS play narrative. And we really need more films with queer joy and fun. I mean, we just talked about _Fire Island,_ I think that's a great example of like all these, you know, the possibility of all these other queer narratives that we can tell. But as Richard said, I do think that this film really like it holds space for both. Um, and especially in pride month, and I know this is a pride series and we're in pride month right now, a lot of this movie takes place at pride or it's like sort of centered around pride. And as we like, sort of, you know, we make all these jokes, which are very true about like corporate Chase bank pride. It's very easy to forget, like why the whole thing at all in a way. You know, cause we're, you know, we've sort of gotten past this moment. So I think _BPM_ is a really, it's a wonderful film to sort of remind us, oh, this is, this is why, you know, the marches and this month is important and why, yeah. We need to actually, you know, take time to celebrate and also to protest and also to fight for our rights.

Katey Rich: It's funny that even in this movie, in the early nineties, they're like, 'oh, pride, it's all going to be so stupid.' Like even then.

Chris Murphy: They knew.

David Canfield: It's also interesting to that point... I remember watching this movie near the end of 2017 and that was a pretty big year for queer film. We had _Call Me By Your Name,_ we had _Beach Rats,_ we had _God's Own Country..._ 

Chris Murphy: _A Fantastic Woman_ too. 

David Canfield: _A Fantastic Woman_, yeah. All movies that I really like. Um, the most part, uh, those are pretty, those are downers. Uh, especially like I remember coming out of _Beach Rats_ and just like kind of being catatonic for a few hours. It was pretty, it hit me pretty hard. Um, and this one, it has just so much space for life. I mean, it it's, it's a messier movie than some of those. It's not quite as compact or, well, you mentioned that two and a half hours, Chris. Um, or tonally consistent, but it... I think that's why I love it so much. It, it just, it, it kind of pulsates, to the title of the film, um, with a real feel for, um, being inside that kind of movement, um, fighting for your life and fighting for your community's lives. And there's a real energy to that that I didn't forget about, but revisiting it now, it's like, oh, yes I remember the exact context in which I first watched this movie and it, it, it kind of went down the same way again, which was cathartic almost.

Katey Rich: I remember the energy of the dance scenes, which kind of recur throughout the movie and I think means something different every time. But I had forgotten how electric the, the conversation scenes. They're all in this like college lecture hall yelling at each other in French, but I can like feel the energy of the conversation and the disagreements and people snapping when they agree with something or don't, and you've got, um, Sean, this main character, who's like, kind of in some ways, the most, uh, confrontational of some people in the group. Uh, and you just hang on every word that they say. Again, even though it's in French, a language I do not speak, I was amazed by the, the flow of that dialogue in so many of those really long scenes, how much they grab you. 

Rebecca Ford: Yeah, I think you can really, it's the way he captures that sense of urgency that is just, it's so powerful. And I don't, I'm not an easy cry, but I've cried every time I've seen this movie in Cannes, during award season that year, and three days ago during that last, uh, scene. I just, it's just the way he builds it all to that it's just so powerful. And, and, you know, a lot of those like meetings scenes, or even when they're meeting with doctors and pharmaceutical companies could come off so dry, but just the way they film it and the actors, it just all feels so powerful. And it's just a really phenomenal storytelling. 

Chris Murphy: Yeah, it is and so that leads me... I wasn't at _Vanity Fair_ in 2017, I wasn't an Oscar expert back then as, uh, all of you might've been, um, why it didn't get nominated? It just blows my mind because it was so wonderful. I remember watching it 2017 and like that sort of like stirred, you know, it really, I was very upset. Um, and I still, to this day, I don't really understand how it sort of just did not get the Best Foreign Language Film nomination. 

Richard Lawson: Well, I think the sex is one reason why, uh, and I think the politics is the other. I mean, I, the, the complaint that I heard at Cannes a lot, um, from people who were, you know, uh, perhaps predisposed to liking the film was that, 'oh, there are so many of these talking scenes and they're going over and over and the politics of it.' And it's like, yeah, that's the point? Like it's supposed, it's supposed to show that like the reality of what was happening. These young men dropping dead left and right at all around you. That that had to be met with all of this bureaucratic discussion. The contrast there is so it's wild, you know, but that was the reality of it. And I think that like Campillo is, is admirable for leaning into the sex of it. Yes, but also for forcing the audience to really sit with like the process of trying to get this thing recognized and treated, you know? Um, and, uh, I think that something about that energy that may be a little bit brash kind of aggressive, like, no, you're going to sit and listen to us talk this through maybe alienated too many, um, viewers. 

David Canfield: Yeah. And this was before, uh, the now international branch, um, instituted a kind of save system where it had become frequently controversial, the kinds of films that would be passed over. Um, this is a very finicky group of voters as we've learned. Um, and their selection process is unique compared to, um, other branches and other categories. So, uh, it's also just a case of, you know, you take all those points that Richard made and then even if it's, uh, widely claimed relatively widely seen, um, movie as it was, uh, in that year. And even as France is one of the best performers in this category consistently, it was always the case that a movie that could rankle like that, uh, would miss the cut. And that did happen that year. Um, I think it was actually cited as one of the examples of why, um, they did institute a change to system. 

Katey Rich: Uh, well, where does this fall in the Academy's International membership drive? Like I'm looking at the page for it, and this is the last year- and _Fantastic Woman_ actually won that year, which is interesting. Um, but it's the last year that the foreign- that the International Feature winner wasn't nominated in another category. Like since then it's been _Roma_, _Parasite_, _Another Round_, _Drive My Car,_ so it feels like the Academy wasn't yet where it is now in terms of paying attention to, to international film in general.

David Canfield: Right. Yeah. I mean that, I think that's the answer, is it just wasn't it has developed so rapidly the last few years. Um, but I think it was just before you really saw that scene change.

Rebecca Ford: Yeah. And it was, it didn't even make the shortlist that year. I remember it got cut, you know, when that list of however many comes out where it's the shortlist to be considered for the nominee, so it, it was cut from the process pretty early. 

Chris Murphy: Yeah. It feels like that had to be a catalyst to sort of the, which is the amazing thing that the Academy is doing, which is becoming a more international and, you know, the fact that this was so close to _Parasite_ and _Roma_ and yet completely ignored. It feels like, yeah, that this snub had to sort of, uh, been a catalyst for change, which has been as sort of a parallel to the movie in terms of, you know, not getting your due you know, sort of paving the way for future generations, So, which is kind of bittersweet. 

Katey Rich: I was also looking back at the- at_ How to Survive a Plague_, the documentary about Act Up in America, um, which lost the Best Documentary Feature Oscar to _Searching for Sugar Man_ in 2012, um, kind of a classic like they go for the crowd-pleaser- which _Searching for Sugar Man_ is not a bad movie, but, um, _How to Survive a Plague_ was so bracing and really kind of similar ways to _BPM_ from what I remember of it. Um, and it, it, it didn't win. It's kind of a familiar story. Richard, you've talked about, I think you talked about _Philadelphia_ last week a little bit in terms of, you know, the, a movie with Tom Hanks, a straight actor playing this, you know, really landmark gay character and something you wouldn't take away. Um, and you have talked about _Philadelphia_ a few years ago, and that I think still kind of stands up as like the Oscar AIDS movie, like _Dallas Buyers Club_ has come since then. I mean, do you watch _BPM_ and think like, my God, why can't we ever like, pull it together and recognize something that feels this real?

Richard Lawson: Yeah. I mean, I think that, I mean, the _Philadelphia_, you know, very much a product of its time in all of its, you know, slight failings. I think that movie kind of has a bad rap. I think it actually is a kind of striking film that really spoke to that era. You know, um, and to think of it as a kind of an act of a toman in some cases on Jonathan Demme's part, because the lore is that he made that movie because, um, he was so horrified by the reaction to _Silence of the Lambs_ from the LGBTQ plus community at the time. But, you know, again, product of its time, um, I think that where _BPM_ sits in relation to _Philadelphia_ is, um, I don't know if people have watched _Philadelphia,_ you know, recently and have memory of this, but there's this scene where this very straightforward film suddenly kind of veers into the abstract when Tom Hanks's character is listening to this opera, and he's talking to Denzel Washington about what the opera means to him. And it's, the camera is kind of doing interesting things. And there's these flashes of color kind of, it's a really, that sequence is kind of the entirety of _BPM_ in a way. You know, because I think that, um, I think it's important that at the time these narratives were told to, you know, presumably straight audiences all around the country who maybe didn't have firsthand knowledge of this or experience with this, um, that it was told kind of just the facts, but it would also, you know, a clear emotional arc. Whereas _BPM_ feels like, not that it excludes anyone, but it feels much more sort of in community, you know? Um, and I think that, that I think both things can and should exist, but I think they're distinct in that way. You know, and I think that _The Inheritance_, the play that Chris mentioned, um, this big two-part thing that was in London and much hailed and then came to New York and didn't fare quite so well, I think that was trying to do something similar as sort of in community discussion about, about the loss of, of, uh, you know, a huge swath of a generation of gay men. But I think it didn't quite get there. I think that in the late 2010s, uh, AIDS Wars, I think that _BPM_ still comes out on top. 

Chris Murphy: Yeah, and it should be said _BPM _won the César, so it wasn't like, you know, unheralded after Cannes. 

Katey Rich: Yeah, it was a big box office hit in France, which is great. 

Richard Lawson: And, and also it should be mentioned, I don't, uh, um, that this is based on Campillo's own experience. The character who dies in the film is based on... Sean is based on someone very real to Robin Campillo and I think that also really helps that sense of kind of visceral intimacy, um, much in the same way that certain characters in _Angels in America_ were based on people that Tony Kushner knew. 

David Canfield: Recalls _The Normal Heart_ too a little bit. Um, particularly that looking at it from the inside. 

Chris Murphy: And I was going to just offer _Rent_ for Jonathan Larson. And it's it all, you know, all these classic narratives. Yeah. I will say I have never seen _Philadelphia_ Richard, so the way you just described it does actually make me want to touch down and give it a shot cause I, you know, I heard- 

Katey Rich: It's definitely worth it I would say. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. Yeah. Um, I, I mentioned the character, Sean. I just wanted to shout out the actor, Nahuel Pérez Biscayart, who plays him, who is so incredible and- 

Katey Rich: Incredible. 

Richard Lawson: He had been rumored to be like close to Winning Best Actor at Cannes, that didn't happen. But just a really, really great performance, um, that, uh, feels like kind of the driving engine of the film. I mean, Arnaud Valois is also really good as Nathan, but, um, I think he really, uh, Biscayart really sells the film and I told him as much at the queer pond party at Cannes, um, it didn't go very well. I'll just say that. He was very nice, but it was, there was a language barrier and also just me kind of stammering over my words. But I think it's also fun to note that Adèle Haenel is in this film and, uh, she, you know, obviously was from_ Portrait of a Lady on Fire_ the previous year at Cannes in 2016. She'd been in the Dardenne brothers film, and Haenel recently did an interview where she said she's quit the film industry because she, um, she's a very big leftist and she's like, it does not align with my politics. This industry is corrupt, blah, blah, blah, blah. Uh, so I'm going to go do theater, which I, you know, I watched the interview with, you know, um, English subtitles, and she's a real force of intellect and conviction and a fascinating figure in the French film industry. And I think that's so interestingly reflected in this film, in her character. 

Chris Murphy: I was about to be so upset to the point when you said she quit a film, but if she's doing theater, that's okay. I'll fly to France. I'll go, I'll go see her on stage. And didn't she protest this is our words like recently 

David Canfield: she walked out when Roman Polanski was presented with an award. 

Chris Murphy: There we go, okay. 

Richard Lawson: And That's a big deal in France to do that. You know, they still love their Polanski. So, um, yeah. 

David Canfield: Well I think he won Best Director that year.

Richard Lawson: She's an admirable figure, uh, in that industry, I hope that somehow she can be lured back at least, maybe into super independent film, because she's such a good performer and yeah. 

Chris Murphy: Phenomenal.

Katey Rich: Uh, well, you can watch _BPM_ on Pluto TV, which is how I watched it, but there will be ads on it, uh, fair warning. And you can also rent it and wherever else you rent movies, and truly it is two and a half hours with subtitles, really well-spent and like maybe a cathartic cry at the end. I mean, it's still sad, but, um, I think it's just, it's really something that you shouldn't miss. So go catch up with it.

Richard Lawson: So now we're going to turn to the discussion that Chris and I had with our fellow theater goers. Katey, you said dorks. I think geeks is a lot kinder. I'll take nerds even. 

Katey Rich: I'm so sorry. I'm not up to date on the language.

Richard Lawson: Dorks and dweebs...those are, those are the mean ones. Um, but, um, yeah, so we had Jackson McHenry from _Vulture_ and Esther Zuckerman from _Thrillist._ People who Chris and I have definitely seen out at the theater, uh, throughout this whole 2021, 2022 season. Uh, yeah, so it was like lively, perhaps long conversation. 

Chris Murphy: But worth every second. 

Richard Lawson: About who, who could win on Sunday night and maybe who should win also.

Chris Murphy: Yeah. And I, some of the categories, I think we still, we really didn't land on exactly anyone so, you know, time, time will tell whoever takes it home.

Richard Lawson: It's June, uh, early June, uh, so in addition to the start of pride month, although it always seems related. I mean, these things are all causally connected. Uh, it's also Tony season. Um, the Tony Awards are on Sunday night. Uh, the return to the regular June date after last year's weird thing, and it was in the fall, I think it was. Um, so it's actually, hasn't been that long since we've had a Tony Awards, but, um, these are awards and we do cover awards on this podcast, even if we don't talk a lot about theater. So I thought I would convene an expert panel to go through the potential big winners or potential big losers. Um, so you can win your Tony's pool. Uh, if you are still doing that in 2022. Uh, so I'm joined by VF Staff Writer, Chris Murphy. 

Chris Murphy: Hi. 

Richard Lawson: Uh, _Vulture_ Senior Writer, Jackson McHenry. 

Jackson McHenry: Hello, hello. 

Richard Lawson: And _Thrillist_ Senior Writer, Esther Zuckerman. 

Esther Zuckerman: Hello. 

Richard Lawson: Uh, I'm so happy to have you all here. I have run into all of you at various times in the theater, uh, as we have tried to see as much as we can. Jackson, my guess is you have probably won the tally in terms of having seen the most. Uh, largely because it's a big part of your, your beat at _Vulture._ So I want to ask you first, you, I'm also working off of a handy, you did a predictions thing for _Vulture_ of what's going to win. What do you think the sort of narrative of the season was if there was one, and beyond, like we're back from COVID? Was there anything that unified the season, um, past that kind of landmark moment?

Jackson McHenry: It feels like it's been a three-part season almost because of the COVID delay in that there were shows that opened last summer and fall that were sort of the first out of the gates. I guess officially it was Bruce Springsteen's little sort of encampment at the St. James doing his show. Um, and then _Passover, _which is this play about police violence, um, that did not get any nominations, which is frustrating, I think. Um, but, and then a sort of whole batch of what felt like more experimental plays that were opening in the fall that were sort of before producers wanted to bring out the big blockbusters that they had planned for the spring, kind of testing the waters, testing, the ticket sales. Um, and then as those were opening alongside the sort of major juggernauts like _Wicked_ and _Lion King_ and everything. And then a batch of shows that were in performances that are technically still part of this season, but were in performances in last March and then reopened. Things like _Six_ and _The Girl From the North Country,_ um, that now feel like they've been open for three years, um, and are mysteriously in competition against everything else. And then finally, the arrivals from this spring, the, the shows that would have been sort of traditionally Tony competitors that all seem to squeeze into April. I think there were something like 15, uh, openings, um, in over the course of April. I saw our theater critic, Helen Shaw, um, at all of these performances. She just looked increasingly wearied. I was like, can we like get you, you know, lumbar support, um, through, through insurance or something. But those were things like _Macbeth_ with Daniel Craig, Sarah Jessica Parker and Matthew Broderick in _Plazaz Suite_, um, but also sort of new arrivals, like _A Strange Loop_, which had been off Broadway way before the pandemic and even _Funny Girl_. And so it sort of like weird to think of all of these separate categories in separate contexts in which all these shows were developed and suddenly be like, okay, you have to choose the best of these very different productions and they all have different goals, so, yeah. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. I think you've, you've articulated that well. It, it did feel kind of scattered between revisiting stuff that I had seen right before the shutdown and or, or stuff I was anticipating seeing, and then just brand new things. Um, and, and I think somewhere in there I did have that feeling of, you know, Broadway's back, baby. Um, Esther, was there a show or a moment in a show that you most potently felt that throughout the season? Like that Broadway really was truly back?

Esther Zuckerman: Oh, wow. I mean, weirdly the thing that I was going to say was I went with Jackson to the reopening of _The Lion King... _

Richard Lawson: Sure, yeah that counts. 

Esther Zuckerman: Where Julie Taymor came out and gave a speech about how Broadway is back and I started crying, which doesn't involve this year's Tony season at all. Um, but it does feel like I was gonna say it does feel this strange... strangely maybe, but, um, of this, uh, this Tony season involves the facts that I saw _Six_ in March 2020, the weekend before the shutdown. And then that Monday, somebody who, an usher in the theater, had tested positive. And I wasn't sure whether I should have even gone. And then I saw it again, like, and I was like, oh, okay, we're back, I guess? But I'm repeating the same thing, so that's sort of the strange way I felt sort of ushered back into this Tony season.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. Chris, you know, you, in addition to being a great writer for us, you're, you're also a performer. You have a history of performing and I'm curious, like, you know, a lot of people in the theater community. Has that sentiment, at least in terms of Broadway, permeated to the performers? I know it's been a very fraught experience, but like, because people keep getting sick and having to be out and then coming back and it's, it's a lot. So from the industry side of things, um, how do you think this season has been for them?

Chris Murphy: I think that's a really interesting question. I do think that's quite true that it has sort of permeated into like the performances. Kind of similar to Esther, somehow in the, in the midst of Tony season, I saw _Wicked_ twice in a week. Which also is not up for any 2022 Tony Awards, but one of the performances I saw, Glinda, the first black Glinda, she was out. Um, and I saw her, her come back for the second show. Um, and the energy in the room is palpable. You can feel sort of the energy of the performers on stage and their connection is sort of unlike anything that I sort of felt before, um, the massive shutdown. I mean, Richard, we saw _Come From Away,_ I think that was like the first performance back for that cast, and it felt like a literal rock concert. Like Bruce Springsteen level sort of, um, just energy and vibe and just electricity. So, and that sort of on the good side of things, right. So it's like really the energy is so palpable in the room, but then on sort of the upsetting side, I don't know if people saw this, but Beanie Feldstein who's um, Fanny, Brice, she just tested positive for COVID I think in the last 24 hours. So now, you know, she has to miss a swath of shows because of that. Um, so as much as we might feel that, you know, we're sort of... Broadway has been back since like the September 2021 Tony's, um, COVID, it's still very much a player in the game and it does really affect these runs of the shows and can see it. You could feel with the performers. 

Esther Zuckerman: Broadway also feels like a weird canary in the coal mine with COVID in a way, because I think people are very susceptible. You know, with the dressing rooms are small, the backstage are small and so like through the Omicron wave, waves plural, um, you know, we've seen shows having to take breaks. We've seen major stars like the Sarah Jessica Parker and Matthew Broderick both getting COVID at the same time. You know, it's felt stuck like, as Chris was saying, it's felt sort of stop and start and you sort of get when shows start having to cancel performances, you get that like feeling in your throat, like, oh no, it's happening again.

Jackson McHenry: Yeah. And it's meant that a lot of these shows have had to fall back on their understudies and swings and especially the big shows like _Lion King_ and _Wicked_ have managed to stay open because they have just banks of emergency Elphaba's they can call out of retirement in Michigan, which is literally what they did for one of them, um, to do a performance. Um- 

Chris Murphy: That was amazing. 

Jackson McHenry: And the newer shows have had to shut down, which has been very hard for them financially cause they just don't have as many people who know the parts, but there's also been a push for some acknowledgement at the Tony Awards of the understudies and swings and ensemble members this season. Um, and I believe Kate Schendel, the equity president was tweeting about how yet like despite rumors that it won't happen, yes, something will happen. Um, who knows given it CBS, probably not very much. But, um, it does feel like there should be some sort of category. You put in the emergency Elphaba's, you put in the emergency Nala's. Julie Benko, Beanie Feldstein understudy, Jennifer Sinmard, who is Patty Le- one of the understudies for _Joanne and Company_ is already nominated, so, you know, let them do it all under study number. 

Chris Murphy: It seems at this point, especially after this season, that it's sort of been crazy that there isn't either a Best Ensemble Tony or like a Best Swing or a Best Understudy or some like legitimate acknowledgement. I mean, obviously I hope they have a number. They have a moment, but like an actual award. I mean the swing tracks in these shows... you know, you have to know at least, you know, three to four to five to eight different tracks for these shows. It's really incredible, and you know, they never really necessarily get their due. So I hope, I hope that that's at least, you know, that conversation extends beyond Sunday night. If, you know, we need to acknowledge that in some way, I feel. 

Richard Lawson: And I think they shouldn't be taken for granted, considering a friend of mine was in an off-Broadway show, and I, and I, I, after the show, I said, 'oh, that was great. Do you want to meet for a drink?' And he said, 'oh, I'm really not allowed to be endorsed for the run of this because we don't have understudies.' Like pretty much. So it's amazing that those resources are there, and I agree they should be celebrated. Also talking about going back to _Wicked_, going back to _Lion King_, I feel like they should have a Tony, some sort of Tony category for like still trucking along. Like, you know, or like, or like an 18th replacement of Elphaba. I mean, emergency Elphaba is a great name for a memoir, if anyone wants to take that, but.

Chris Murphy: The Old Gals Still Got It award you know? 

Richard Lawson: Um, well, let's get into specific, uh, who's going to win, maybe who got snubbed if people have opinions on that. Um, and I figured because it's usually the big ticket driver, uh, in any given Broadway season, although maybe not so this year, um, let's start with musical. So in the Best Musical category, you have _Girl From the the North Country,_ which Jackson mentioned MJ about Michael Jackson. _Mr. Saturday Night,_ which is stage version of the Billy Crystal film from a long time ago. Uh, _Paradise Square_, which I actually embarrassingly don't know much about. Uh, _Six, _the musical and _A Strange Loop._ Um, now Jackson, you have predicted _A Strange Loop_ winning. I'm going to guess that Esther and Chris, you are in consensus with that decision. 

Chris Murphy: Yeah, I'm going to go all in on that, all in on that one. 

Esther Zuckerman: I will say I'm a little, like I'm worried cause I'm rooting- very actively rooting for _A Strange Loop,_ I'm- I have a slight worry about _Six._ I don't think it's really going to happen. I still would I guess, place money, but _Six_ has been just such an enormous crowd pleaser over the however many odd sort of disjointed years it's been running and has this sort of like little girls showing up dressed like queens, um, sort of vibe to it. But I would say _A Strange Loop_ generally.

Chris Murphy: Well, I, on that note Esther, I do feel like what you said in terms of how it came out. Literally like the day, like the day right before COVID sort of hit, um, sort of works against it in a way that it feels like it's been around for three times as long as, as basically every other nominee. So as much as _Six_ is a crowd pleaser, it's fun, the score is amazing. They're making it into a movie. They're filming it professionally, I think they just announced that. So it's having a moment. I do think it's hard to ignore Michael R. Jackson's incredible groundbreaking, never before seen Pulitzer Prize, winning original musical A _Strange Loop_. 

Jackson McHenry: Yeah. Yeah. And like adjust world, COVID would have not happened, and one of the many small improvements from that would be that _Six_ would have already won a Tony for the 2019 / 2020 season for Best Musical. Um, but I, I do think like Esther said, the case for _Six_ is that a lot of Tony voters are producers and especially road producers who have a vested interest in trying to get a _Best Musical_ that is a moneymaker because then it makes it easier to advertise your, you know, San Francisco engagement of the show. But I think there's also such a vested interest in, in the sort of artistic qualities of _A Strange Loop_ that specificity it's, um, of the moment it's already won a Pulitzer, it opened just right in the right before the Tony voting season, so I'm hoping for a band's visit like win there. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting- _Strange Loop_ is so fascinating. I saw it off-Broadway and, um, in that intimate space with probably the barrier to entry financially, the audience felt younger than a Broadway audience does. It felt more diverse than a Broadway audience does. When I went to go see it on Broadway, and this is a show that deals with black queer sexuality and the theater and all of this stuff, and it's very pointed in a Broadway context at the audience it's performed to, in a way, which you might think could be kind of alienating. I mean, when I went, there were two black women sitting behind me and at one point, one of them turned to her friend and said, 'do white people get this?' And you know, the, the Tony voters, uh, is not the most diverse body of awards voters. Um, but I think in some way, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong anyone here, but like, I feel like that alienation or that intended alienation actually works in this show's favor because it is very viscerally I think proving one of its points in that way. 

Esther Zuckerman: I will say I saw it, um with a friend and then I sent my, uh, white older parents to go see it with saying it's amazing, and they came out and loved it. So, you know, to, to that sort of Tony voter demographic, um, thumbs up. 

Chris Murphy: I would say, on that note, like the sort of barn burning of it, and that it's like, sort of takes on the Broadway establishment directly and still it comes out successful, that sort of exists, and, you know, it takes on not only Broadway, but Tyler Perry. You know, white gay, you know, patriarchal culture. All of these different systems are sort of equally sort of, um, raised to the ground if you will, in an artistic and sort of undeniable way that it does, it doesn't feel like it just takes on Broadway. It's very, like everyone gets, everyone gets an equal like punch and that's to sort of look inward and inward at themselves. So I do think that sort of also works in its favor. 

Richard Lawson: In that, in that predictive view. Jackson, how far do you see _A Strange Loop_ going in terms of other wins? I mean, you have great performances. I think there are three nominations in both featured and lead and, uh, obviously Michael R. Jackson himself, do you see like _A Strange Loop_ sweep on its way?

Jackson McHenry: I think it certainly could be possible, especially in terms of the book feels very likely as for a win for it, especially if it's going up against- _Six_ wasn't nominated for its book. And I can't imagine trying to reward the sort of weird self justifications of the Michael Jackson musicals book. Um, it is wild. Lynn Nottage already has two Pulitzers, and then she wrote this and it's questionable. Um, but, uh, it's score I think might actually is something that I can imagine breaking in _Six's_ favor. Um, just because _Six _is so dependent on all of these pastiche pop songs that sound like great pop songs. Um, and then _Strange Loop_, as we said, takes on everything even has some very pointed Scott Rudin jokes. Um, and in the performance categories, it's going up against a show that was engineered by Scott Rudin, the, the massive moneymaking super show that is _The Music Man,_ and as wonderful and incredible as Jaquel Spivey is in _A Strange Loop,_ I think it is very hard to go up against Hugh Jackman, uh, for Leading Actor in a Musical. He is, you know, the entire raison d'être for the music man. The audiences love him. You can get the Broadway Cares, um, auction to, to sell. There was one clip of him getting auction members to pay $20,000 for a whistle with his saliva on it at the end of the show. 

Chris Murphy: That's a steal. 

Esther Zuckerman: COVID! 

Jackson McHenry: Um, it's wild. And the weird thing is I think he's objectively miscast as Harold Hill. It's not a great performance. It's sort of against his vocal range. Um, and Sutton Foster his co-star is similarly miscast.

Esther Zuckerman: She makes it work. 

Jackson McHenry: Um, and in some ways she has better charisma. 

Esther Zuckerman: She makes it work better than he makes it work. 

Jackson McHenry: But yes, this is my long-winded way of saying that I do sort of imagine that Hugh Jackman will be getting the award even though that hurts my heart. 

Richard Lawson: In that way, the show would prove a little critic proof because there was much ballyhooed about _The Music Man_ for years. Uh, and yet it kind of, I mean, obviously it sold a lot of tickets, but when I went, I was a Wednesday matinee, so maybe that was partly to blame, but like I could kind of feel the audience trying to convince themselves they were having a great time. Um, or maybe I was just projecting. But I, I guess it doesn't really matter because Sutton Foster and Hugh Jackman with all of the financial might behind them and that show, uh, might just prove undeniable, I suppose. 

Chris Murphy: And it's kind of funny in the comparison to like what _A Strange Loop_ is about is that _The Music_ _Man,_ like is the establishment. You can't have like a more sort of establishment musical with then you have these glitzy, like Broadway stars, and as much as Hugh Jackman is a movie star, he's paid his dues. He has a Tony, hosted the Tony awards. Like he is sort of, you know, probably arguably Broadway's biggest male lead star, you know, crossover star that we have. So I also, like Jackson, I also am worried that, you know, Hugh and his wide virbrato might sing all the way to the Tony's, but that being said too, I also recently saw _Mr. Saturday Night_, which I sort of specifically went because I wanted to see Shoshana Bean who was nominated for Best Supporting Actress and she did call out, so that was tough for me. But, um, I was actually sort of like impressed or wondering, I'm not a huge Billy Crystal guy. You know, I mean,, I love _When_ _Harry Met Sally,_ he's wonderful. Mike Wazowski, fantastic. But, um, there seems to be just like a lot of love for him in the room. It's just like, it's basically just him doing whatever he wants in a musical, doing his shtick for a while. And like, he's also, you know, allah, Hugh Jackman, one of our few crossover theater or Hollywood artists. So I don't know if there's like a sentimental wave for that, even though _Mr. Saturday Night_ sort of came in under, for me. It wasn't my, not my favorite show of the season. I sorta was sold, uh, I thought it was going to be like lots of like showgirls and dancing, and it's just sort of like a small seven person, you know, older guests. You know, singing, doing their songs. Um, so I don't have any thinks that could also happen. 

Esther Zuckerman: Well, and I also, I actually wanted to ask any of you. I didn't see MJ, but I have also heard, I have heard sort of buzz for Myles Frost as a potential candidate for the role. So I wanted to sort of ask anyone if, if you think that could possibly happen. 

Richard Lawson: Well, I think the helpful thing with MJ is that there's no controversy with that show. You know, it's, it's an easy one to vote for. Um, I don't know. I think that's, I think that's definitely true, Esther, that MJ definitely has its diehard fans. Um, whether those people are diehard theater fans or are diehard MJ fans or both, I don't know, but I think that with Crystal and, and, um, Jackman, there's always the potential that they split the sentiment vote and that someone like Jaquel Spivey or Myles Frost could kind of sneak in there. Um, if you were going to break that tie, I would probably give it to Spivey just because, um, maybe that would get swept up with the broader _Strange Loop_ momentum.

Chris Murphy: I hear, I haven't seen MJ either, but I have heard from a bunch of people that it is actually a surprisingly very fun, very dance-y musical. And that Myles for us does a really wonderful work, but I've heard more, Jaquel is like sort of like, you know, star or standout and Myles is a part of a really great ensemble. That's a really talented ensemble of actors and performers in MJ. So I guess I would also defer to Richard. I would, I think that would happen. 

Jackson McHenry: I have seen MJ and I, I did not have a great time, but it is a - I mean just cause I was sort of haunted the entire time by just thinking about the allegations against him. Um, but it is a spectacular dance, whole sequence, Christopher Wheeldon who directed it and did the choreography. Um, it does feel like there's sort of an outside chance, and maybe not even an outside chance, a good chance of it winning for choreography, which isn't in itself interesting because you're like, how much is it choreography for the show? How much is it just perfectly replicating um, Michael Jackson's Dangerous tour? How does that work? How does authorship work in choreography? Um, but yes, I, and my Myles Frost is giving a very, very perfect, exact impersonation of Michael Jackson that I think, you know, there could be, there could be a branch of Tony voters that are like, love the show, great spectacle, why not? 

Chris Murphy: You might've been the person who actually told me that now that I think about it. You told me that it's like a good dance, okay. It's all coming back to me now. 

Jackson McHenry: They put out the first number from MJ on, on Twitter at one point. And I remember one of my friends being like the number of retweets this is getting, the amount of heat this is getting, you never know. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. And I guess what, you know, Jackson, you're predicting Sutton Foster to win, uh, in the Lead Actress category. I would maybe say just for my own, somewhat limited viewing that Sharon D. Clarke from _Caroline, or Change_ could be the spoiler there just because that's a very respected show that got a revival. That felt like it was done because it was timely, but also because_ Caroline, or Change_ in its original run, um, maybe didn't quite get the, uh, attention it deserved because it came out the same year as _Wicked,_ right, and _Avenue Q_? And there was a documentary about that Tony season and _Taboo_, I believe it's the other one in that running. 

Chris Murphy: That's the outlier.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. Yeah. So I, there was a sense of like, you know, justice for _Caroline, or Change_ in 2021/ 22 season. Um, but it was long enough ago, it was in the fall that I don't know if it still has the momentum. 

Esther Zuckerman: Yeah. I mean, I was, I hope that it could win musical revival, but I also doubt it with, uh,_ The_ _Music Man_ sort of as I've everything that we've mentioned about _The Music Man_ sort of so far. Even though it was not a very good production and _Caroline, or Change_ was a very good production. 

Richard Lawson: Well music man evokes everyone's mediocre high school production, so it gets that nostalga.

Esther Zuckerman: And of course, and of course then there's _Company_ too the, the gender swapped _Company_. 

Jackson McHenry: And, and _Company_ has been literally just putting Stephen Sondheim's face on playbills for the month of May, which is a little, you know, bald faced, just, you know, look you love Sondheim. He is gone, time to reward it. Um, that's sort of like what was the _Imitation Games_ campaign, honor the man, honor the movie. Honor the man, honor the very British, not very New Yorky feeling gender swapped musical. 

Chris Murphy: Well, it's interesting that the company _Caroline, or Change_, um, _Music Man_, sort of a three-way fight, that company, actually, their lead actress, Katrina Lenk who won the Tony for the _Band's_ _Visit_ actually did not get nominated. See some would say that's a snub, others would say that makes sense. Um, so it seems like momentum wise, _Caroline, or Change,_ it might actually have a little bit more in that way because Patti LuPone probably just going to walk away with it, right. It's Patti LuPone, finally playing Joanne in company on Broadway. She's been doing this for 10 years and, you know, in one way or another, between the Kennedy Center and the Sondheim red dress 80th birthday celebration. So that seems sort of almost like the biggest lockie lock that there is whether or not you think she really worked in this production, or if you think this production really worked. There, you know, I have some feelings about it. It's not my, not my favorite production of _Company_. I'm a big Raúl Esparza, John Doyle, 2007, um, or 6 or whatnot. Um, that was more for me, but that's a long way of saying I am hopeful Sharon D. Clarke, you know, could emerge victorious. And maybe that would mean that there might be some, you know, some slight little chance that _Carolina, or Change_ with a gorgeous score written by Tony Kushner. Just a really phenomenal, weird operatic musical about, um, a black woman who's a maid for a Jewish family, um, in Louisiana, in the '60s that really never got its due. There might be, there might be a way. Or Tamika Lawrence who is amazing as Dot. She's in the Best Supporting Actress category. And she was in _Black No More_, which was off Broadway and had a really banner year. And she just killed it miscast singing, singing, _Lost in the Wilderness_, and she forgot the words at the end and she actually made up lyrics that were better than what Steven Schwartz wrote. And I'll say it.

Richard Lawson: Well with that, uh, let's move over to the play category, which is in recent years, it feels like the more star studded. Although there, as we have mentioned, the big stars, uh, in the musicals, um, so the Best Play nominees are Lynn Nottage is _Clyde's._ Um, Martin McDonagh_ Hangman, The Lehman Trilog_y from Stefano Massini and Ben Power, _The Minutes_, which is Tracy Letts, uh, and _Skeleton Crew_ by Dominique Morisseau. Jackson, you have predicted _The Lehman Trilogy,_ um, that was probably the best thing I saw on Broadway this season. So I am going to agree with that both in predictive sense and also, um, you know, that's what I would like to see win I think at this point. But Jackson, would that be your pick too, um, not just a prediction, but also your favorite.

Jackson McHenry: It's, it's sort of a lot of the plays that I most loved are not nominated in the category. I'd like to _Lehman Trilogy_ a lot. I really admired it. I had a lot of sort of smaller quibbles that added up to, uh, just like pangs of dissatisfaction. And it, it has a, it has an odd way of sort of papering over cause it's about the history of the Lehman brothers empire. Um, and the three actors play all sorts of characters throughout, and it sort of aligns the history of slavery, um, in, in the beginnings of their sort of cotton trading, um, in a way that sort of they've added it- I think they've changed it from the British production and added a little bit of acknowledgement, but it sort of carries on and the big tragedy is more about their ambition. Um, in a way that you're like, these are incredibly precise performances. This is incredibly well done. Beautiful spinning set. Um, I feel like this spinning set is going to win cause people just love it when sets spin. Um, but there, there there's, there's just a little bit of like, not quite as, as, as hooked in as I would have liked. And there, there are plays left off. Like for instance, _Dana H_ and _Is This a Room _which played in a rep at the same theater alternating performances last fall, which were both small downtown productions. Um, _Is This a Room_ is the reality winner, um, arrest transcript performed as a script and with the moments where there were, um, things, uh, censored just sort of bleeps and it goes dark and it's left off and, and _Dana H_ is this incredibly compelling, haunting lip-sync basically reenactment from Dierdra O'Connell a downtown theater legend. Who is also in the Amazon, the Amazon series _Outer Range_ I discovered watching it this week and she like came in and my roommate was like, this actress is fun. It was like, oh my God, that's legend Dierdra O'Connell. Um, but, uh, she, she lip-syncs this playwright, uh, Lucas Hnath's mother's interviews about being abducted, um, in Florida and taken around by a man, man, who is a white nationalist. Um, and so I personally would choose _Dana H_ as the best play, but it's not nominated. 

Esther Zuckerman: Dierdra O'Connell is nominated though and I really, really hope she wins. I don't think she will, but I would love that win. That would be an amazing win. 

Jackson McHenry: I predicted her as just like, I can't choose anyone else. Even though - and Mary-Louise Parker, who I think also maybe is going to win. But who knows. 

Esther Zuckerman: I think Mary-Louise Parker will win, but... 

Richard Lawson: If Dierdre wins she wins a $10,000 tip and decides which other queen goes home, right? 

Chris Murphy: Uh, I also am pulling for Dierdra, but didn't Mary-Louise Parker, she just won the last in the September Tony's right? 

Jackson McHenry: I mean the question is whether anyone remembers that, uh, Mary-Louise Parker won last September. Like I had forgotten, and I was like, right, that would be two years of Best Actress in a row, which Mary-Louise Parker deserves it. Mary-Louise Parker. It's incredible. _How I Learned to Drive_ was incredible. She did _How I Learned to Drive_ more than 20 years ago with David Morris and is back and that's haunting. 

Richard Lawson: I was so excited about _How I Learned to Drive_ because it was a play that I read in college. It was in our theater textbook and in there were, you know, a little black and white photos of Parker and Morris in the original production. And it was one of those things where you just say, well, gee, it would have been cool to see that, maybe I'll try to find it in some sort of video archive. Um, and then they actually just did it again. And, and I, while I found Parker to be, you know, as, as she was in the _Sound Inside_, which she went for last year, um, so incredible, I was really blown away by David Morris, who I'd never seen on stage. And that is such a tricky part where he's playing this loving, but also abusive uncle, um, to the lead character played by Parker. It's a kind of memory play. Um, I was just really blown away by him and I, and I see Jackson you've predicted that he'll win. And I, I mean, if, if that show wins something, it would be pretty cool if it was him.

Jackson McHenry: Yeah. And I think that is just an incredibly tricky haunting unnerving performance. And it's so much about him having to seem both pathetic and absolutely horrible in it at the same time. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. And that degree of difficulty is often- 

Esther Zuckerman: For both of them, obviously. 

Richard Lawson: -Something that voters, you know, they, they take a shine to that because it, it, they're not only thinking about the work, um, uh, you know, as a whole, but it's like gee, to do that on a Tuesday night, like, you know, uh, and then like twice the next day, it just, yeah, it seems like a lot. 

Jackson McHenry: And I think there's a good amount of sort of theater good will built up for David Morris. He was in the Denzel Eisman comments that also spawned Austin Butler into a finally getting_ Elvis. _

Esther Zuckerman: Spawned is a good word. 

Jackson McHenry: Reformed him from the _Carrie Diaries_ to damn he's an incredible actor telling Baz Luhrmann, whatever. But David Morris was, I think the best performance by far. Um, and then sort of maybe a little bit of like a Laurie Metcalf back in like 2015, where it was like she's been in, so in so much good theater and then finally everyone's like, right. Yeah, But anyway. 

Chris Murphy: It also helps too for his category that every, the three _Lehman Trilogy_, uh, actors, they all got nominated. It's a pretty big, I think there were seven nominees. So, I mean, if we're talking about votes splitting, I don't know how you pick between the three _Lehman Trilogy_ brothers, and then, sorry, I'm sorry to _American Buffalo_, we're sort of, not really in a manic space, I think, as a community right now. So that already, that sort of, I think creates a little bit of a pathway for David Morris to take it. And yes as everyone said him and Mary-Louise Parker were both really phenomenal in it. 

Richard Lawson: One of the most scrutinized categories, uh, in the, on the play side of things, and for reasons that I think are very frustrating, uh, is Featured Actor in a Play because, um, Jesse Williams, who Jackson you've predicted to win for _Take Me Out_, uh, that performance became very famous online because although they take your phone and put it in a sealed kind of mylar bag or, or neoprene bag, uh, and so there's not supposed to be any footage of the nudity in the show, something did leak out and all of a sudden this Broadway play that Richard Greenberg wrote, you know, 20 something years ago was like trending on Twitter. Do you think any of you think that helps or harms, uh, Jesse Williams's chances? I would assume kind of help in, in a kind of cynical way? 

Jackson McHenry: I, I, I, that was part of the reason why I predicted him just partially because he has handled it in a incredibly, like in a way that he shouldn't have to deal with. They're, they're so explicit in the theater. It's a show about a man coming out on a baseball team and all of the tension that, that inflicts and has scenes where they're nude in locking rooms, taking showers, where the point is the awkwardness of the nudity and the way in which people will be start to observe each other and think about, you know, sexual attraction. Thinking about being looked at, um, which disrupts the presumably straight atmosphere or whatever. Um, and he has really handled it with a commitment to saying, you know, theater should be a space that we respect, and we were trying to do this because we're performers and we're trying to tell a story. And I think it's sort of him and Jesse Williams and then, um, oh God, what's his name? The third actor who's...?

Chris Murphy: Michael Oberholtzer who's really great. 

Jackson McHenry: Who's really great And he plays this sort of raging homophobe character. Um, and all three of them are really good and it's a great ensemble. And I would, I was sad that Brandon Durden, who is a wonderful as sort of the counterpoint to Jesse's character, who's this big star, um, who was also great in _The Skeleton Tree._ There should just be a Brandon Durden award for being great in multiple shows. But, um, I think that, that Jesse Williams, he's also, he's also a TV star and there's sort of some skepticism of like, oh, you're coming into Broadway from _Grey's Anatomy_. You're not really a true theater person. And he's kind of proven his commitment to the theater in a way.

Esther Zuckerman: Yeah. There was literally a _Variety _headline that I kept seeing that was like "Jesse Williams is a theater guy now." It was very much explicit- it felt like very much an exploded, like, okay, this guy is going to win the Tony. This is like his anointment that he can like make the transition from one to another. 

Chris Murphy: I would say, yeah, I think it only, like it could only sort of push the needle if the performance is actually good. And he does a really wonderful work, Jesse Williams, um, can cry his face off. When I was there, I was like, oh my God. I was like _Grey's Anatomy_, they really teach you how to cry on command, but they really, they really nailed that in. Um, but his performance was really wonderful and he's handled this whole entire thing with such grace and such tact that I do feel that he's the one who's going to sort of sneak on in and take it.

Richard Lawson: I hope that, uh, if Patti LuPone wins on Sunday, that her speech is just her yelling at the audience, don't take photos of the actors. Uh, and you know. 

Esther Zuckerman: I hope it's a recreation of her yelling at the woman without the mask. When she screamed bullshit. 

Jackson McHenry: When she yelled at the woman at the mask after the talk back, and then she also was like, the woman was like, we pay your salary as attendees. And she was like, Chris Harper, the producer of _Company,_ uh, pays my salary. And I was like, this is also just a really good campaign for Chris Harper and _Company_ that everyone... if they weren't going to vote for Patty LuPone already, all of the producers are like, wow, she knows our name.

Richard Lawson: See who, who needs onstage slaps. We have- the Tony's have plenty of their own campaigning drama, uh, to be appreciated. Um, well, I want to thank you guys for all for talking to me about this. Um, before I let you go, I'm going to go one by one and maybe in a category we haven't covered or someone's name we haven't mentioned, I'll start with you, Jackson, um, do you have a favorite that you're hoping to see win something on Sunday? 

Jackson McHenry: Um, I have just two things. One is that if _A Strange Loop_ wins, we should note the fact that Jennifer Hudson is a producer on _A Strange Loop._ She's on- among a group of celebrities that this sort of at the last minute came in like John Legend producing, what was it, _Jitney?_ And that's how he has an EGOT. If she wins a Tony, if it wins a Tony, she wins a Tony. She has an EGOT, which is a great redemption story from the time that Jennifer Hudson was not nominated for a Tony when she was in _The Color Purple_ and tweeted that she was being used for her celebrity, not her talent, which doesn't make sense, but it's actually kind of what you're doing as a producer. Um, and then in terms of the other performances, I just wanted to shout out the Lincoln Center revival of _The Skin of Our Teeth_ I thought was really incredible, um, directed by Lileana Blain-Cruz and especially Gabby Beans who did get a nomination in, in Leading Actress. Um, but as this young performer who plays Sabina, the maid, a character in Thornton Wilder's play, who occasionally breaks the reality and talks to the audience about how much he hates the play and it's confusing, um, was really wonderful. And when she's in the reality of the play was doing a sort of like Eartha Kitt as Yzma style, Tallulah Bankhead mid-century voice. That just makes me laugh so much. Um, and I am sure we will all be talking about Gabby Beans in future productions and who knows what other, what else, uh, soon. So I was happy for her. 

Richard Lawson: And what a name. Um, Esther how about you? 

Esther Zuckerman: I mean, I honestly mentioned the one that I really want, which is, um, Dierdra O'Connell for _Dana H._ I'll say that like, just going through the category that, that plays should also win sound design, because it's the most incredible sound design I've ever seen in those categories aren't broadcast on the Tony's or maybe they will be in like the pre-show that's airing on Paramount Plus I honestly have zero idea how that's working, um, thanks CBS. But, um, yeah, I, I, that was really sort of the blowing way. Also shout out, cause she's not gonna win, but Jennifer Simard who has been covering Patti LuPone when she was out is also so funny in her original role in_ Company_ and she won't get it, but props to her.

Chris Murphy: Okay. I will say I honestly, I saw Jennifer Simard as, uh, Patty's part in _Company_ when she understudied and I actually preferred it with Jennifer Simard in it, and that's, that's going to get people they're going to come from in the DM's and Patty's going to scream at me, but that's just my take for the production, but okay. For real though, I want to just highlight two featured performances that I'm really personally rooting for. Um, I know we talked a lot about _Strange Loop_, but I think John Andrew Morrison as thought for in _A Strange Loop_ he's nominated for Best Featured Performer, or Featured Actor in a Musical. He is, does an amazing, astounding so deeply work, that's just really incredible. He sort of plays one of the main character ushers thoughts in his head, as well as his mom. And we really see this sort of heartbreaking mix of sort of David Morris has in terms of love. And also, um, the hate that comes with having a relationship, you know, uh, a mother who is, who loves God, maybe more than she loves her gay son and what that might entail. So really pulling for John Andrew Morrison, uh, is phenomenal. And then, uh, in the Best Featured Actress in a Play, I was blown, blown, blown away by Kenita R Miller in _For Colored Girls Who Considered Suicide When the Rainbow, uh, is Enough._ Um, she was, uh, they're all different colors in the rainbow and she was red and she has this really speaking of things that I don't know how you do it eight times a week, she has this absolutely gut punching monologue, um, at the end of the play that, uh, has stuck with me and that show, that show's journey, which it was, you know, it was in danger of closing and then a viral campaign to sort of keep it open and to, to buy tickets for, uh, you know, for other people's specifically marginalized people, um, black people, people of color to see the play has been really inspiring and, and on top of it, she just had a baby like last week, which is, um, so I don't know how that happened while she's doing the show. Um, so I'm really pulling for Kenita R. Miller and she's just a stalwart theater actress and she's fantastic. 

Richard Lawson: Well, those are all great highlights. Um, I have not seen POTUS, but I like the ring of Rachel Dratch and a Tony nominee. So, I mean, I think that's, that's, that's a victory unto itself, but, um, uh, yeah, it's a, it's a great selection. If some of these shows are running and you're planning a trip to New York, please do, uh, try to see them. 

Esther Zuckerman: Also shout out to L Morgan Lee, who I believe is the, who plays one of the thoughts in _A Strange Loop_ and I believe, and she's nominated for Featured Actress in a Musical and I believe she is the first ever trans performer nominated for a Tony, um, and she's incredible on top of that. 

Jackson McHenry: And she has an incredible song where she plays a woman who is because the main character in _A Strange Loop _is an usher at _The Lion King_ and to circle around, was talking about going back to _The Lion King_ and she has a song where her character is just like, I like seeing _The Lion King _and I like seeing _Wicked_. And that's enough for me. Um, and it is a really lovely song, so, you know. 

Richard Lawson: So yeah, if you're coming to New York, go see _Lion King_ and _Wicked_, you know, you want to, and then, but do with third show. 

Jackson McHenry: And nothing else. No other interest in theater.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. Uh, well, Jackson, Esther, and Chris, thank you so much for talking with me today and, uh, have fun watching the Tony's. 

Katey Rich: That does it for this week's show. We'll be back next week, we're continuing our pride flashbacks. We're moving into- further into the nineties with _In and Out._ In the meantime, you can find us vanityfair.com. You can find us on Twitter at_ Little Gold Men _and on our own. I am @kateyrich and Richard? 

Richard Lawson: @rilaws 

Katey Rich: And David? 

David Canfield: @davidcanfield97. 

Katey Rich: And Rebecca? 

Rebecca Ford: @beccamford. 

Katey Rich: And Chris. 

Chris Murphy: @christress. 

Katey Rich: And you can also sign up to text with us at joinsubutex.com/littlegoldmen or text 917-809-7096. Our editor and producer is Brett Fuchs, and this week's award for the weirdest description of the movie, _The Master_, goes to Richard Lawson. 

Richard Lawson: There's a really, really moving hand job scene.