Katey Rich: Hello, and welcome to _Little Gold Men_ the award season podcast from _Vanity Fair_. Intro: "It's such an honor to present this next award." "And here are the nominees." "And the Oscar goes to..." "And the Oscar goes to..." "And I can't deny the fact that you like me. Right now, you like me." "I'm the king of the world!" "There's a mistake, _Moonlight_, you guys won best picture." Katey Rich: I am Katey Rich and I'm here back reunited with the full crew. I've got Richard Lawson. Richard Lawson: Hello. Katey Rich: David Canfield. David Canfield: Hi. Katey Rich: And Rebecca Ford. Rebecca Ford: Hi guys. Katey Rich: It was such a pleasure to listen to our podcast when I came back from vacation last week and be like, oh, what did I miss? These, they caught me up on everything. Although after, uh, last week's episode came out, uh, the full or, uh, a very large part of the Toronto lineup came out, um, after many weeks of eyes emoji tweets and keeping things secret. So we've got a few more titles to discuss in addition to everything you guys got into, uh, last week. Um, a little bit more information about the New York Film Festival. Uh, and then you're gonna hear the first installment of our little gold book club series for August, where we'll be talking about _Women Talking_ the book by Miriam Toews, and Erin Vanderhoof, our colleague, will join us for that. And also a programming note on the book club. Uh, we previously announced that the fourth in the series would be _Killers of the Flower Moon_, but now there is reporting that that movie will not be released until next year, so we'll save that and we're gonna swap it out with _White Noise_, the Don DeLillo novel, which is in the news today as we record, because it will open the New York Film Festival. And it's also been announced as part of the Venice lineup. Um, you guys talked about it last week in the Venice lineup and, um, David, I think you flagged Adam Driver is somebody who feels like he's, uh, ready to pop, uh, does the New York Film Festival opening night slot give us even more faith that _White Noise_ is gonna be a big deal. David Canfield: Seems like that's the, that's the narrative, right? it does remind me of, uh, when _Power of the Dog_ kept getting these big festival slots, starting with Venice and then I think it was the centerpiece of New York Film Festival. Netflix is being a bit more selective with _White Noise. _It sounds like it's not hitting Telluride because this is the now to the north American premiere- Richard Lawson: or TIFF. David Canfield: Or TIFF. Katey Rich: That's interesting. David Canfield: Yeah, that, that surprised me because it does feel like TIFF is back to that really central award season meeting ground, um, post TIFF, uh, post Telluride and Venice, but you know, you don't have to go there. So I guess it's not, it doesn't doesn't necessarily say too too much, but, um, yeah, I, I think just being the opening film of two of the four major fall festivals is extremely notable. Katey Rich: Yeah, that's true. Um, and so that leaves _White Noise_ and _Bardo_, it seems as the, the Netflix top dogs for this coming fall. Am I forgetting something? David Canfield: Yeah, that seems right. And I believe the Venice chief leaked that _Bardo_ is going to Telluride. So he, he had named a few movies, uh, in an interview with _Variety_, I believe, uh, and that was one of them. Katey Rich: Look, if you're gonna try and keep your line up secret, and everybody knows all this stuff, like we can't help you. There's only so far we can help you here. David Canfield: We're just saying what others have said. We don't know any more than you do. Katey Rich: Um, and then, so we had the full, or, uh, the gala special presentation lineup up for a TIFF, which is not everything. I think midnight titles are still to come. Um, some of the more international features will probably be more stuff added, but a good chunk of what will be at TIFF was on there, including some Cannes stuff that I think, uh, those of us who don't go to Cannes look forward to being able to see like _Triangle of Sadness._ A lot of titles there and then some, uh, newer stuff. Um, Richard, what, what stood out for you on the additional expanded TIFF lineup? Richard Lawson: Well, you know, you can do some extrapolation based on what's a Canadian premiere and what's a North American premiere, and what's a world premiere. Obviously, if it's a world, premiere, it's premiering at TIFF, but you know, it looks like Sam Mendes's _Empire of Light_ will be appearing at a Mountain Film Festival before TIFF. Um, _Women Talking_ as well. Um, which we'll talk about that book and movie later on this episode. You know, _Empire of Light_ is something that, you know, it sounds like a sentimental Sam Mendes kind of thing. I don't know if that a hundred percent is gonna work on me. It's something that I didn't know really existed until, I mean, I guess we talked with Joe about it a little bit, but like, I don't really know anything about it. And I think that's kind of exciting to pretty much be going into something blind, uh, when I see it in, in Toronto. Um, yeah. So, yeah. And, you know, look, it's an Olivia Coleman movie, these days, you can't ever count that out as a big part of the season's conversation. Katey Rich: Yeah. I think, I think I've read the logline for it on this podcast before because Searchlight sent out an email announcing it and it was like, it's about the magic of cinema and history or something like that. It's like, oh wow. Okay. That's, that's calling Oscar's number right there. Um, Rebecca can you do the rundown of how we kind of piece all this together of what's gonna be at, uh, Venice, what's gonna be at TIFF, what's gonna be at Telluride, which keeps its lineup secret. Um, how do we figure that out? Rebecca Ford: Sure. So when the TIFF lineup comes out, they list each film as a world premiere, a North American premiere, or a Canadian premiere. So we can kind of put this together based on already having the Venice lineup to figure out what's playing at Telluride. So if it's playing at Venice, the film cannot be called an international premiere at Toronto. And if it's also playing at Telluride, it cannot be called a North American premiere, so it has to be called a Canadian premiere. But if it's premiering a Telluride and not Venice, then they can call it international. So when you look at the list, you see, you know, Sam Mendes's film is playing at Toronto, but is not playing at Venice, so it's listed as a canadian- no it's an international premiere. Katey Rich: I have a listed as Canadian premiere. David Canfield: This one is weirdly listed as a Canadian premiere. I think that it can be interchangeable though. Like there's also the Sebastián Lelio movie. Rebecca Ford: Yeah. David Canfield: Which Netflix is distributing. Um, and that is listed as an international premiere. It's not going to Venice, so I think you come to the same conclusion for both of those movies right? Katey Rich: Which is that they will be at Telluride. David Canfield: Yes. Katey Rich: So wait, so _Women Talking- _ Rebecca Ford: Because _Women Talking_ is not playing at Venice, so it can be called international because it's playing in Canada, but it cannot be called North American because it is playing at Telluride. Katey Rich: Cause it's playing in Telluride. Got it. Rebecca Ford: So this is the sort of thing that like we dig into for 30 minutes and everyone else is like what are you talking about? Katey Rich: Which it doesn't matter because these all premiere within 10 days of each other. So if you go on vacation- Richard Lawson: Sometimes like two days of each other, like it's really a silly thing. Rebecca Ford: It's really for our own planning abilities because we won't find out about Telluride till we literally land there. Yeah. So it's, um, helpful for us, but it also, I think, you know, reflects the sort of heat on behind some of these films. You know, the ones that hit as many as possible and, and, you know, we know how selective Telluride can be. And, and so it is interesting, but Lord don't let me, don't make me explain it again. David Canfield: Yes. I'm sorry. I'm sorry for making that more confusing. Katey Rich: When you get the films that, um, David, we mentioned before, that you wrote about for the September issue that go from Venice to Telluride and get a lot of heat than in Toronto, like you get much more press. Many more people being like, oh, wow. I heard that the _Lost Daughter_ played really well at both Venice and Telluride. I'm gonna line up to see that. It really builds on itself when the films go do all of that jumping from festival to festival. David Canfield: Yes. It does. It seems that it's a route that not as many films are taking this year, which is kind of interesting. I mean, last year, actually, you had a lot of movies skip TIFF just because, uh, it still wasn't the sort of full Toronto experience that it is known for due to COVID. So it feels like that's kind of inverted a little bit where a lot of movies are either skipping Venice or Telluride and going to Toronto. Um, but yeah, it seems like there are a few movies that are, that are making that jump, but not, not all of them. Um, but in terms of movies that are premiering at TIFF, expectedly you have a lot of the more commercial leaning movies that really could go either way. We've talked about movies like _Bros _and _The Woman King_, um, which both, you know, look really exciting based on the trailers that have been released, but you also have a movie- Katey Rich: Oh, it was- the, the Nicholas Cage, Western butchers crossing, which appears to be the source of the horse that he talked about that didn't like him, um, which makes me wanna go see it. David Canfield: Nicholas Cage log lines never disappoint. Katey Rich: Uh, so yeah, that's, that's the commercial one I was looking at that's like, could be interesting to discuss, could just be a crowd pleaser. David Canfield: Yeah. And I think you have to look at, um, the Peter Farrelly movie. Katey Rich: Yes. David Canfield: You know, his last movie won Best Picture and he's coming Toronto. Katey Rich: After premiering at TIFF. David Canfield: Yep. And he is coming to Toronto with, uh, _The Greatest Beer Run Ever_. Rebecca Ford: Ever. Katey Rich: _The Greatest Beer Run Ever._ David Canfield: Yeah. And it's, it's got a kind of, it's got the kind of storyline that if the movie works for those, for whom Peter Farrelly movies work, uh, that could go pretty far, I think. Richard Lawson: And the greatest beer run ever, in addition to a, a kicky title and a director who is fairly hot off an Oscar win, a big Oscar win. Um, it's also about the Vietnam War. So it's like, it has like a bigger component to it and, uh, so I, I think that is definitely one we cannot count out. Um, I would be surprised if Peter Farrelly was able to repeat the _Green Book_ success because _Green Book_ just was such a surprise. It came outta nowhere and now there are actually more eyes on it and I think that puts more pressure on, on, on his follow up. So, but I am, I think it is very pointedly at Toronto and Toronto only. I don't, you know, it's skipping all that already, Euro shit, you know, the, whatever, the hippies in the mountains who, you know, who needs them. You know, not that Toronto is the most like meat and potatoes kind of place, but, uh, in terms of the festival offerings, it is definitely the most commercial and accessible and, um, you know, a lot more people go, you know, you can just buy tickets. I mean, they're not cheap, but, um, it does not have the barrier to entry that these other festivals do. Rebecca Ford: I do think Zach Efron probably has a, a strong narrative if he is good in that film as well. Katey Rich: Yeah. Rebecca Ford: For an awards run, so that could be really interesting. Richard Lawson: And, and, and, and part of a narrative that is gonna continue, he, he just, uh, was announced he's gonna be, I think, the lead in Sean Durkin's next film, which is a true story about a very kind of cursed wrestling family. So Efron is on, uh, an interesting jag right now. Katey Rich: Uh, speaking of commercial things in a movie that I feel like I should have known existed, but there's a Paul Weitz movie with Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin. He directed Lily Tomlin in _Grandma_, and obviously they were in _Grace and Frankie_ together forever. Um, I don't, again, I don't know what the awardsy prospects of that are, but, uh, I would look forward to being at that world premiere. Richard Lawson: So they just film on lunch breaks is that how it works? Katey Rich: It's called_ Moving On_, by the way, for anyone trying to look at the lineup. Richard Lawson: There's another title that we mentioned months ago when Joe Reid was on here kind of previewing _The Gear_ with, uh, Kelvin Harrison Jr. It's a period piece, uh, believe historical drama. Um, that's something that could just quietly debut at TIFF and a few people see it to get some notices, but like, because it it's being sort of, it's small right now. It feels a little bit off of, um, a lot of the, the sort of predictive radar, let's say, but, but sometimes those movies really do sneak up and, and make a, you know, kind of really loudly announce themselves. So I'll be definitely trying to make time to see that, um, when I'm in Toronto, Rebecca Ford: I'm also curious about Jennifer Lawrence's film _Causeway,_ which- David Canfield: That's a big one. Rebecca Ford: Yeah. I feel like, you know, she plays a, I think a veteran who's suffering from like traumatic brain injury and, you know, it'd be interesting to see her deliver a really dramatic performance. Um, and, and- Katey Rich: She's in it with, uh, Brian Tyree Henry, who's one of those people who's Oscar nominations like it's not, if it's when. Richard Lawson: And it's Apple and they know how- it's A24 and Apple and Apple has proven that they, they can run a campaign so... David Canfield: Yeah. Yeah. I think this one's distinct from like the way _Macbeth_ was released last year, where A24 has essentially sold it to Apple, I believe. As opposed to it being a paired release. So I don't know how that changes the equation at all, but, um, yeah, Apple- Apple's slate is very mysterious right now because- Katey Rich: I was just gonna ask about that. David Canfield: You mentioned the _Killers of the Flower Moon_, likely push, um, on the other hand, on the other side of that coin there have been some rumors of _Emancipation_, the Will Smith film directed by Antoine Fuqua, actually being released this year and that it's screened very well and to very positive reactions, but we don't really know what they have beyond, yes, the films that have been announced like _Causeway, _which was a, a later pickup for them. Katey Rich: I did, I wasn't planning to talk about _Emancipation_, but like, a Will Smith big award season movie feel possible this year? To me, it does not. Like, I think _Emancipation_ could just go and, and play well, but I, I cannot see that narrative taking hold. David Canfield: No, I don't think so. Richard Lawson: But it might be why he recently spoke out again about things and issued a more thorough apology, to not just Chris Rock, but other people. Maybe sort of my lizard brain is like, but that he's doing that because he's trying to clear the runway for this movie that, um, he was, you know, reportedly paid $35 million to do. Katey Rich: I, I don't think that's a, uh, that's a big leap at all. David Canfield: Yeah. I mean, it's completely possible that Apple just can't really sit on the movie for a full year and they believe in the movie enough, and yeah. Uh, the Venice chief said that _Killers of the Flower Moon was not close to ready,_ so in that case, um- Katey Rich: Which feels crazy because they were filming that like when the pandemic started or like they were getting ready to. David Canfield: That quote did pop, pop out to me, is I don't know about that. Um, but if that is true, or if, if the movie is simply not being planned for this year was not planned for this year for by Apple, then yeah, they probably do not want to have too much on the back end. We can speculate for a long time, but I, I guess it's possible that movie gets released and is good even, but I just don't see how in any world it would take off as a serious awards contender given everything. Katey Rich: Yeah. Richard Lawson: Speaking of things that may not be finished, I think I'm kind of giving up hope on the Ari Aster movie, uh, _Disappointment Blvd._ Katey Rich: Oh, that's been your horse. David Canfield: Yeah, I believe that is, that is moving. Yeah. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Um, I obviously _Babylon_ the, another big one from a youngish, you know, lauded director, Damien Chazelle, that is still scheduled. It has not been announced for any festival yet, but that doesn't mean anything necessarily because a lot of December movies don't go to the festivals, uh, in the early fall or late summer. But yeah, the Ari Aster one, I think I'm just gonna have put down that drum and start beating it next year. Katey Rich: Yeah. I've got our little spreadsheet that had a lot of, uh, possibilities on it that I moved on to a new tab, uh, of things that don't seem to be coming out. Uh that's on their, uh, the Bayard Rustin biopic that seems like it's not happening this year. David Canfield: That would definitely hit a fall festival if it was I think. Katey Rich: Yeah. Uh, _Maestro_, the Bradley Cooper movie. I think we knew that wasn't coming out because it's still filming. Um, but yeah, it's, it's interesting how once these festival announcements come out and you're like, okay on to next year. You get a lot of information about the future. Richard Lawson: But I think that, you know, it's probably obvious to anyone listening, but like what's so exciting about this is this abundance. I mean, we just have not had this, um, for three years and um, it's, it's a little overwhelming from a boring editorial workflow standpoint, but like, I think we have a lot of potentially great things coming and I feel really excited because going to Toronto last year when it was a ghost town and there were like six movies and that was super depressing and I think that the whole season last year was really colored by this kind of lack of, of, of umph and, and energy and, and I'm, I'm really already feeling that energy now. And, uh, it's really fun to try to remember what a Canadian premiere means. You know, like, uh, I'm, I'm happy to be back in this position. Rebecca Ford: Yeah. The amount of world premieres they've got this year is pretty, pretty stunning and like big films. I mean, it's definitely, it's definitely back. And like, if we look back pre pandemic, I mean, the films that got first, second, and third at the Toronto Film Festivals People's Choice award were always awards contenders. So it, yeah, it's definitely- David Canfield: Even Last year they were- Rebecca Ford: Yeah. It's definitely worth, you know, paying attention to, and I'm gonna be so jealous of you three while you're there. Katey Rich: Oh, you'll be fine. Richard Lawson: And Toronto did world premiere a Best Actress winner last year, even in that, that quiet year. Rebecca Ford: Yeah, they did. Richard Lawson: So, and I, you know, certainly there are many episodes of me saying that would never happen, so, uh, just listen back if you wanna hear me be wrong. Rebecca Ford: Oh, and I do wanna point out Chastain is back with _The Good Nurse._ Katey Rich: Yes. Rebecca Ford: Uh, the Netflix film, that's gonna be a Toronto and she is the lead and is a pretty powerful drama, thriller about a serial killer and she plays the woman who kind of helps catch him. So, you know, she, it may be repeating her whole journey once again. We'll see. Katey Rich: You can read all about that in the first look piece that you wrote, Rebecca. I had one more question, mark. Um, the, I got a press release, uh, you know, two weeks ago about, um, Wes Anderson's movie, _Asteroid City_. And I, you know, a release from Focus saying that they were distributing it. Um, it's not on any of these lineups and that release didn't say if it was coming out this year. Does anyone have a sense of it if that's actually coming this year or will it be a spring thing? David Canfield: He tends to like the Berlin / Cannes corridor. Katey Rich: That's what I was thinking. David Canfield: I would expect that to continue. Especially given, um, just how crowded to, to Richard's point, this is already looking and especially those big star-ier movies. You also have _Amsterdam_ from David O. Russell coming at the end of the year. You have the new _Avatar, _you have the new _Black_ _Panther_, and those movies are gonna take up a lot of that blockbuster end of year oxygen. Um, which is, I think, why you have movies like the _Fablemans_ and, uh, some other bigger movies, uh, like _Empire of Light_ launching early, despite being holiday movies because they kind of need to gin up that conversation before it just gets incredibly, incredibly crowded. Katey Rich: Yeah. Yeah. There's a couple other things that we still, like _I Wanna Dance with Somebody_, the, uh, Whitney Houston biopic that, or last I heard was still scheduled for Christmas release that hasn't shown up anywhere yet. Um, there's _A Man called Otto,_ a remake of the Swedish movie with Tom Hanks. That's scheduled for December. That's not anywhere yet. Uh, and _She Said_ the movie about the Harvey Weinstein reporting from the _New York Times_ is also not on a festival lineup. But other than that, I mean, and then, yeah, _Wakanda Forever _and_ Avatar._ David Canfield: _New York Times,_ hm, I wonder where that's gonna go? Katey Rich: There is yet another fall festival with, uh, that's holding many of its cards, so who knows what's yet to come. So we are very excited now to kick off our August book club series. Truly, if you want to catch up on books that are going to be movies, August is the time to do it because we have all these festival announcements. We really have a pretty clear picture of the movies that are coming out this year to the point that we are, uh, switching up the last book in our series, which we'll talk about later. Uh, but we're starting with _Women Talking_ the by Miriam Toews that is being adapted into a movie by Sarah Polly, which has been announced in the Toronto Film Festival lineup and, uh, based on some details about how it was announced, we expect might be at, uh, another mountain festival also. Um, but we're here to talk about the book because, um, the movie is not out yet. Uh, and joining us to talk about it is, uh, Erin Vanderhoff, again. Hello, Erin. Erin Vanderhoof: Hey, Katey. It's so nice to be back. Katey Rich: I know that you see movies in addition to just reading books, but when it comes to talking about books, I really do just turn to you as a default. Erin Vanderhoof: Yeah, no, I really, I really, really love to read. I, I do like to read more than I like to watch movies, but I do love to read the book first and then watch the movie. Katey Rich: Yes. Uh, and you were really insistent on coming on for _Women Talking_. This is a book that, uh, is very dear to you. Do you wanna just talk about why? Erin Vanderhoof: Well, so this book, it came out a couple of years ago, and I remember it just getting these like really universally great reviews. And I have like a sort of fascination with isolated religious communities and like fundamentalism and the way that gender plays into that. And so I picked up this book and I was just like stunned I think by, you know, I, I think that there's a sense in which people who are illiterate and cannot tell their own stories don't often get the chance and I think that there's something really stunning about this book. It opens from the very beginning, a man named August is saying I'm here only because the women they cannot read and write, so I'm reading and writing the story for them and what unfolds is, or just a really, really gripping and scary and just emotionally intense story about women coming to terms with the fact that the people in their community have been sexually assaulting them and gaslighting them about it essentially. And the women sit down and they say, we have three options. We can do nothing, we can stay and fight, or we have to leave. And I kind of love how that encapsulates the, the simplicity and yet the like deep complexity of what's facing these women. And so as the title implies, the, the novel is women talking. They they're talking about this, about the things that have happened to them in a Mennonite community. It's very cloistered and about whether or not they're ready to see if there's anything else in the world and what it means to them to sacrifice their potential salvation for, you know, a more tenable life. Katey Rich: And it's based on, uh, true events that happen in a Mennonite community in Bolivia, um, which this is kind of a, a work of fiction spun off from that. Uh, and Miriam Toews, as I learned from this _New Yorker_ profile that, Erin, you sent me that everyone should read if they wanna know more, grew up in the Mennonite, uh, faith in Canada and so she has very close ties to this world. And you can imagine how the story really resonated with her when it, when it came out in the news in the early 2010s. Erin Vanderhoof: Yeah, and it's one of the things that, you know, is documented really beautifully by Alexandra Schwartz, who's like one of the best book writers out there is that Miriam has spent her entire adult life, even after she left the church, her family had one foot in one foot out and, you know, learning to kind of have compassion for people who are making, you know, very different decisions. And sometimes even very bad decisions is like at the core of a lot of her work and I think it comes through just really wonderfully in this novel. Katey Rich: David, you had read it before we were doing this book club as well, right? David Canfield: Yeah. I read it when it came out and I feel the same way as, as Erin. I, I love the book and, um, reading back, uh, for this book club, I, I was particularly reminded of how funny it is, um, which is not something you would associate with the subject, the title, um, or really just have any expectation of, of that kind of style. But, um, the, the power of the book is the way that Toews groups these women and allows for such a thorough, holistic, complicated conversation. And out of that you get some really profound moments. You get some really mundane moments, and then you get some really funny interactions too. And there's just a perfect balance of, of those elements, uh, that feel extremely true to life and extremely true to these characters that she's brought to life. Katey Rich: Yeah, it's challenging to read. I was kind of reading it on a very busy vacation surrounded by people and I kept having to turn to it being like, okay, which one's, which, which name is who? Because you just get a list of the characters at the front of the book of like who's related to who, but there's not like a physical description of anybody and it's all in this one halo where they've gathered. So it's all you are getting of them is what they're saying to each other. So it takes a, a while I think to get your hooks into who's who, but as you read the book they just come alive so much, so that by the time you get to the end of it, you really get each of them and where they're coming to this conversation from, it's so powerful and it, when it builds in that way. David Canfield: Yeah, there are these character revelations for select few. Especially that, to your point, Katey really open the whole book up because you, you are kind of in this, it's almost like a socratic dialogue. And I know a couple critics had written that as well when the book came out and there's also some like 12 angry men in there. You know, there's a lot of interesting cultural touchstones that are kind of refracted, uh, in, in this telling and it's interesting the way you feel like you're settling in for this extremely intellectualized novel, and then these really poignant character moments burst off the page and it it's extremely moving in those moments and it also makes it a character novel more than you might expect. Katey Rich: Yeah. Richard, did you, like me, read this for the first time for this? Richard Lawson: I did. Yeah. I had read some rave reviews of the book when it came out, but hadn't read it until now, and I'm really glad I did. It's really striking to read a zeitgeisty buzzy novel that is in essence kind of a philosophical text, you know? Like it is, it is women talking about like how to live, how to forgive, how to not forgive, how to hold anger, how to let go of anger. You know, it it's, it's such a, a dense and, and sort of, I mean, obviously talky kind of work that it, it feels like a sort of Plato kind of, you know, dialogue. Socratic kind of thing. Like it's so elevated in its, you know, intellectual ambition. I, I, I do wonder like how that translates into a movie. You know, I, I could see this as a play. Something really kind of meaty that you'd go see at Lincoln Center or something, and, and you can certainly do that kind of dialogue, heavy thing in film. I trust Sarah Polley, uh, more than a lot of other directors to handle the material carefully. I think the biggest thing about the book that I found striking, at least on initial, you know, kind of entry into this world is that we start after these events. We don't see them depicted. We don't really even hear much about them. It's referred to, but it's not, you know, there's no real explicit detail per se. And I think that's a very deliberate choice. And, um, I- Katey Rich: and every detail is like devastating. Like every time she gives you a tiny detail, your you're just like sick. Richard Lawson: The woman's teeth, or, you know, whatever. Like there's so much stuff that that's brutal about it, but like I, and I trust that Polley will honor Toews intent there and not show us because that would seem to, if she, if it, if they do it seem, would seem to almost violate the book's mission. But I don't know, maybe there's a, maybe there is a sensitive way to do it cinematically. But yeah, I think it's, it's a tricky adaptation certainly, but Polley has proven herself in the past to be a very thoughtful adapter. So I have, I have high hopes for the film. Katey Rich: Yeah. Erin, what do you know about Sarah Polley's work because you know, I know you are a fan of the book and I think the rest of us are really big fans of her. Have you seen a lot of her work before? Erin Vanderhoof: Yes. I'm a huge fan. Uh, in fact, I feel like, uh, _Stories We Tell_ as a book, as a movie that I rewatch probably at least every other year or so because I think it is just such, she, I, I definitely can understand why she would be interested in, in picking the story specifically, because I do think that that sense of how children live with the decisions that their parents have made in the past is something that like comes up like is very recurring. Um, you know, how do you understand somebody as a product of their times, another recurring theme of her work. And so I just, I think that she's like, just such like, you know, like the great in my, in my mind, the great Canadian novelist and the great Canadian filmmaker coming together for, yeah, for, for something that I think really brings out the best in both of them. Or I hope I haven't seen it yet, but, as I hope, I hope it will. Richard Lawson: I, I do kind of wish we could see the movie in what is it, Plautdietsch, the Menonite language, because I think there is something so essential about that they're speaking very much in their own voices. I mean, I think that would be completely impossible probably to do. But certainly they've assembled a lot of good actors to do it, uh, in English, presumably. Katey Rich: Yeah. Do you wanna give the rundown of, of who goes on the cast? Richard Lawson: Yeah. So we've got Jessie Buckley, we've got Rooney Mara, we've got Claire Foy, we've got Frances McDormand, the great British actress, Sheila McCarthy, uh, or no, sorry, not British. I think she's American, um, Canadian rather. Um, Judith Ivey and then as August, this, the Mennonite guy who has left the community for a bit and learned English and, and has come back, who's translating for them, that's how we read the story is through his translation. Um, and doc, you know, keeping the minutes of these meetings, um, is Ben Whishaw, so I think that's a, a good choice. Ben Whishaw has a sort of gentle observing air about him. Um, I think people who are not familiar with the book will probably be like, why are we hearing this through the lens of this man? But it serves a real purpose in, in the novel. Erin Vanderhoof: I'm really gonna struggle not to think of Paddington though. That's my- Richard Lawson: Well, he is gonna be wearing the hat and the jacket that's I saw a production still, and you know. Katey Rich: I do think that's an adaptation challenge though, because it is a movie about, it's a book about women, _Women Talking_, uh, narrated by a man. It's from August's point of view. Um, and I think the book handles that really well. Like even the fact that he's got this like long standing crush on Ona, who's one of the women in the loft. Like it's not, it is an important part of the story, but it's not what the story is about. Um, and I think that's a tricky thing to have a male character as a point of view character in this story. But I think Sarah Polley is the person I trust to figure that out. Erin Vanderhoof: I think it does a really, I think that there- you know, to kind of bring this back into the way that gender roles function in a, you know, fundamentalist religious community, I think that there is something really powerful about, about making, putting it in such a situation where it's like these women have been denied a lot of ability to claim their own freedom and it, by, I think watching somebody who does have a better like understanding of the outside world, interpret the way that they're communicating with each other, I think that, well, I think one of the things that I was left with when I read the book is just this thought of like the way that language and the way that experience really mediates our understanding of the things that are happening to us. And that, I think that there's a sense that, that August knows exactly what's really happening to the women in a way that even they are not totally sure of. But like throughout the course of that, like they, they are more understanding of it in the end. And I think that you do kind of need an outsider. Like it would be, I feel like in certain ways it would be almost dishonest to not understand the way that these women have had their lives mediated by men from the very beginning. And that in order to tell an honest version of their story, you have to at least acknowledge that. But I think by making a kind of a character who feels complicated in his masculinity and, you know, even feels a little weird or resentful about being, you know, left behind, but also didn't actually wanna go with the rest of the men either. You know, I think that that kind of pulls at that, at that gender divide really fascinatingly. Richard Lawson: And even be, even though he is something of a pariah in the community, to some extent, you know, had been kind of cast out and then brought back on, on various strict terms, he still was able to go and come back and had those privileges. And I think through him, you really see how isolated these women are because they speak a language that hundreds of years old and only, only Mennonite speak it, so it's not like they could go to some city where there's a, an enclave, you know, or whatever. Like they, they are really alone and I think that August, who also feels kind of isolated and alone, but he, he has much more agency than do the people he's observing. Katey Rich: And this is why Ben Wishaw is the exact person to play this role. Like I had not, I didn't look up the cast list before I was reading the book and I was kind of reading along and I looked up, I was like, oh God, of course. Like it, it has to be Ben Wishaw cannot possibly be anybody else. Richard Lawson: Yeah. If it was like, Joel Edgerton, I'd be like, nope. I, I don't want, I don't want that energy, you know? Erin Vanderhoof: Andrew, Andrew Garfield couldn't- Andrew Garfield has already has already played a similar character. Katey Rich: That's true, _Under the Banner of Heaven_. Erin Vanderhoof: We can't, we can't. Well that's, I mean, if anything, that's why I was, I have been thinking about this book a lot recently because of _Under the Banner of Heaven_ really got me back into thinking about that what people believe is such a complicated thing to deal with in film and in television and I- I'm really hoping that I felt like this book was one of the, one of the best books that I've ever like read about apocalyptic and like, you know, severe spiritual belief without necessarily like judging it or trying to disprove it, but without soft peddling the really negative impact it's had on... you know, I think, I think that's like one of the things that's so stunning to me about it is like, what, what is your experience of the world when you grow, grow up in a community where you've been horribly assaulted? And it feels natural that the answer that people give you is you've been punished for your sins by a demon. David Canfield: Yeah. Katey Rich: And that they're so committed to their faith still. Like they're not willing to leave it behind. They're like, we cannot be good Mennonites if we want vengeance against these men and their, and because we want vengeance, we have to leave. Like their decision to leave is based in the continuation of their faith. They're not a, they're not wavering on that. David Canfield: Yeah. That's my favorite part of the book is the way you see each of these characters at various points at the beginning of the novel, through these discussions, come to a new understanding of their faith and how it can carry them forward, because that's really the great debate, uh, as the novel starts is we can't leave and be faithful. Like that doesn't square with what we know of our entire lives. It's also interesting because this book was pub, when this book was published, it was pretty extensively covered in the context of Me Too, just given the timing. Katey Rich: It came out in like early 2018. David Canfield: Right. Um, but also I think, because there is such a, such a moving and convincing depiction of the way these kinds of mass community traumas can be unpacked and wrestled with and argued over where it's not simple and that you can find your way toward, not just a state of hope, but a new state of understanding through a community. And I think that that's one of the really beautiful parts of the book that does still have that resonance in that, in that, you know, more contemporary cultural context for us. And it definitely, I can see why it resonated then. And I, I remember just unavoidably reading it in that kind of haze, uh, given that's what, all the sort of pre publication marketing was about, and it was definitely targeted in that direction. Um, but I, I think now that we have a little bit more distance from that, it still holds up in that regard in a really interesting way. As a, as a text that I hope will be remembered as something that really powerfully, not necessarily intentionally, responded to that moment. Richard Lawson: Yeah. It's about a total paradigm shift and about whether you have to shed past perspective in order to allow for a new understanding of something that has been happening has been systematic, you know, and that I think can apply to certainly Me Too. That was the timing of when the book came out, but it it applies to so much, I think, that's happening in like civic life right now. People of faith having been like, how do I reconcile X with Y? How do- you know, and people not of faith that, you know, in various other ways like political shifts in consciousness or moral shifts in consciousness. And, and I think that while Toews is telling a specific story about a specific thing that happened in a specific community, um, and I'm always a little reluctant to sort of extrapolate universality out of that, I think you can. I think it is there. Um, there's something eerily reflective about these women debating, not just what to do with this situation, but sort of how to be in the world. And that's a, that's a conversation that I think a lot of people are having in this country and others. Katey Rich: It was really interesting to read right after _She Said_, which we'll be doing later in this book club, which is also being adapted into a movie. Um, it's the book by Jodi Kantor and Megan Twohey about, uh, the Harvey Weinstein reporting and about the women that they talk to wanting to band together about wanting the solidarity, uh, of speaking together and, and the paradigm shift that you're talking about, Richard. They really do, um, speak to each other and their titles are remarkably similar, so maybe it makes sense. David Canfield: They really are similar. I, to your earlier point, Katey, about this being a book that you bring on vacation, and it is one that can be hard to really focus on, um, but I also think the real merit of the book is it does the work. Uh, to Richard's point about where it leaves you and what it shows is it doesn't take any shortcuts in showing how that paradigm shift can happen and how this particular group of people, because they are a particular group of people can come together. Um, but what kinds of implications that can have beyond them. It's not a book that sells a fantasy of what that could look like. It's, it's very meaty and very rooted in complicated feelings and ideas and disagreements. Katey Rich: There's a character, a small character in the book who I think would be more, the focus of the conversation of the book came out now who is referred to as Netty, but wants to be called Melvin. Uh, who is effectively a trans character in this community where like that language doesn't seem to exist. Um, and as like feminist debate and turfism and all this other stuff kind of rolls around it, it was such a simple way of showing solidarity on people who are oppressed by a patriarchal society. And I just, I really hope that element continues in the movie. I think it could be more of a topic of conversation. There is someone credited as Melvin in the cast. So I don't know if that character stuck out to you guys as much in the, in the modern context of the trans debate specifically. Erin Vanderhoof: Well, if not necessarily in the modern context of the trans debates so much is I think that neti does function as I think a really interesting way of remembering that like a lot of, even in situations where you try to isolate you- people from solidarity or from knowledge that queer people exist, there is still like a yearning to, to find that. And I think that, that, like, I mean, if anything, I think one of the things that this book always makes me think of is the sort of, you know, I, I grew going to church a lot. And one of the, the parables that like a, a pastor that I went to church with like loved is the one about like the drowning man during a hurricane and God asking, you know, like, oh, why didn't you, why didn't you save me? And it's like, well, I did send all of these people to save you, and you, you said no, like I'll wait for God. And I think that one of the things that I like love about this book is like so many different ways of people trying to find the, the small outlets or the ways that they can be saved in the limited circumstances that they have, they have and that is what I, that is why I love Melvin. Katey Rich: Yeah. And finding self-determination. Um, and, and it comes in very different forms for all these characters. Uh, the other Sarah Polley project I thought about reading this, I think is less seen as her adaptation, of _Alias Grace_, the Margaret Atwood, uh, novel. That was a Netflix series and kind of one of those Netflix series that like it was there and who knows who talked about it, but I got to interview her for it, which I was delighted by. Um, and, uh, it's really good. And I think a, a good also study of women in a repressive situation kind of finding their own identity and their ways to, um, to self determine. Um, so I think that's worth watching if you want to do some like hardcore Sarah Polley prep for, for _Women Talking._ David Canfield: It's a great show. Katey Rich: Yeah. Uh, do we know when _Women Talking_, we were talking about its festival premieres, it's gonna be in Toronto. Do we know when it's coming out? Erin Vanderhoof: December is it's wide or is wide of release that's going to be, I think in early December. Katey Rich: So people have some time to prepare, um, the book, I mean, once you get into it, I do think the book is a pretty quick read and like, I don't know if you should read the book before you see the movie. Like, obviously you want them to stand on their own, but I think it will raise, I think it will make you excited for the movie and raise a lot of questions, um, and kind of get you in the right head space for it at the very least. Erin Vanderhoof: Yeah, ironically, I also read it on vacation, but I was like, I was in upstate New York because like, you know, not a, not a beach. But uh, yeah, I think that there is something really, I like, I just, once I opened it up, I couldn't put it down because it is just so gripping and it, I feel like it, it, I think there are a lot of questions that we all are trying to answer all of the time, usually pretty isolated or solitary. They're very personal questions, but to see a lot of people being forced to come up with language to answer those questions for themselves for the first time is just always really beautiful. Katey Rich: Yeah. So everyone go get, uh, _Women Talking_ and be prepared and, um, Erin, please come back and talk books with us soon. Erin Vanderhoof: Thank you so much for having me, Katey. Katey Rich: That does it for today's episode. We'll be back next week, hopefully with even more fun festival stuff to discuss, because as Richard said at the abundance of riches. It's so fun to talk about. Uh, in the meantime, you can find us at vanityfair.com. You can find us on Twitter @littlegoldmen and on our own. I am @kateyrich and Richard? Richard Lawson: @rilaws. Katey Rich: And David? David Canfield: @davidcanfield97 Katey Rich: And Rebecca? Rebecca Ford: @beccamford. Katey Rich: You can also text with us at joinsubtext.com/littlegoldmen or text 213-513-4203.. Uh, we did get a text from a listener asking for the, uh, how we figure out and read the tea leaves what will be it Telluride and Toronto, so your questions are read and are very helpful to us. Our editor and producer is Brett Fuchs, and this week's award for how I will feel when I don't get into the world premiere screening at TIFF of _The Fablemans_ goes to Erin Vanderhoof. Erin Vanderhoof: You've been punished for your sins by a demon.