Katey Rich: Hello, and welcome to _Little Gold Men_ the award season podcast from _Vanity Fair_. 

Intro: "It's such an honor to present this next award." "And here are the nominees." "And the Oscar goes to..." "And the Oscar goes to..." "And I can't deny the fact that you like me. Right now, you like me." "I'm the king of the world!" "There's a mistake, _Moonlight_, you guys won best picture."

Katey Rich: Hi, am Katey Rich, and I'm here for this interview episode with David Canfield. 

David Canfield: Hi, Katey. 

Katey Rich: David, you got to talk to an actor who has been my favorite part of so many things at this point, and I think that still holds for his Emmy nominated work, uh, this year you talked to Michael Stuhlbarg about his role in _Dopesick_.

David Canfield: Yes, and so many other projects in which, uh, I agree, I agree with you, Katey. He is, uh, the best part is so many things and yeah, he's always a, a lovely presence when he gets to pop up somewhere. 

Katey Rich: Yeah, and in _Dopesick_, I mean, it is a complicated story with a lot of really complicated, uh, loathe-able people. But I, I get the feeling that Richard Sackler might be really high up there on the list of difficult characters Michael Stuhbarg has played. 

David Canfield: Yeah. It's a great showcase for him to really a true villain, and he, he goes for it a hundred percent. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. 

David Canfield: Uh, it's it's one of his more, I would say transformative performances and he, he really, um, does not hold back from some of the awful things that this man did. Uh, the show is about Purdue Pharma, Richard Sackler, of course, um, the sort of godfather of much of the opioid epidemic as the, as the show, pretty persuasively argues and I think the great, the interesting thing about Stuhlbarg's performance, which rightly is Emmy nominated is it's really quite sinister, but at the same time, there's a sadness to it. And, um, he, he really strikes a, a complicated balance there. 

Katey Rich: Yeah, I think it was a colleague of ours who kind of describe the Sackler on this show as proof that like all the money in the world cannot make you happy because they are so miserable. And Richard Sackler is like the, the root of the poison misery tree in the Sackler family. 

David Canfield: Truly, truly.

Katey Rich: Uh, and you also talked about _The Staircase_, which is another Emmy nominee, uh, that he was part of. He really he's having a good run on TV right now. 

David Canfield: He is and, um, I think that if he was not nominated for Dopesick that he probably would've been nominated for that. The acting branch liked _The Staircase_ a lot and, uh, he was, um, Really, really good in that too. One of the fascinating things about this, you know, year of, of television for him is both of these roles, he's playing men who almost certainly in one case, we know in one case we can assume, people he's portraying have hated the projects. Like in the case, in, in the case of _Dopesick,_ um, Richard Sackler's lawyers quite literally sent a letter to Michael Stuhlbarg uh, which was essentially a cease and desist as he was filming. 

Katey Rich: I don't think you're allowed to do that. I'm not a lawyer, but I feel like he was allowed to play him.

David Canfield: I, I'm sure they, they had some complicated, expensive, legal strategy that made it legal. I don't know. Uh, and then in the case of _The Staircase_, David Rudolf, who is, uh, Michael Peterson's attorney has shared many articles, including a few _Vanity Fair_ articles, uh, about, um, you know, basically with various people involved in the show and in the, um, actual case of Michael and Kathleen Peterson, um, speaking out against the show, calling it inaccurate, things like that. So we talked about the sort of balance of portraying these extremely divisive, complicated characters in these very, uh, provocative and, um, revealing projects and, and trying to just, I think stay focused as an actor when there's so much noise around you.

Katey Rich: Yeah. Uh, no, that's a, and you know, calling someone brave as an actor, I feel like it can really be, um, an over puffy, but to take on a role like that with characters and the real people are out there watching let's um, I, I don't think I could do it. 

David Canfield: Nope. Brave indeed. 

Katey Rich: Well, let's hear more, uh, from your conversation with Michael Stuhlbarg.

David Canfield: Michael, thank you so much for joining us today. Uh, and I wanna start by congratulating you on your Emmy nomination for _Dopesick_. 

Michael Stuhlbarg: Thank you very much. 

David Canfield: Uh, this is your second for a Hulu limited series playing a real person, so it's becoming a bit of a specialty for you. 

Michael Stuhlbarg: I guess so. 

David Canfield: Let's talk a little bit about the project more broadly for you to start. You're known as a character actor, and there's a real, from my experience with your work, a real empathic quality to a lot of the characters you play and the performances you give. Um, enter a real villain in Richard Sackler. Um, it seemed to me like a, a bigger or different kind of swing for you. Both in the choices you made and in his positioning within the show, did it feel that way for you?

Michael Stuhlbarg: You know, I have very little control over the kinds of things that come my way. And so as much as I'd like to think of these things as choices, to be honest with you, it was a wonderful opportunity. So I just, I lept at the opportunity to work with Danny because I've admired so many of the things he's made in the past and to be a part of this cast and to tell this particular story, and I, I would never have cast myself in this part so it was... it was fascinating to me that they thought that I could do something like this. So I was grateful for an opportunity because I'm always looking for something that will, that will be frightening to try to do or possibly, uh, something you don't necessarily see yourself in, but someone else does. Just the fact that someone else will see you in a particular role, sometimes that's enough to give you, uh, the impetus to want to give it a try.

David Canfield: Hmm. When you take on something where you are surprised to be, to be thought of, or you don't immediately see yourself in the part, do you take it as a kind of, of challenge for yourself as an actor? Uh, is it something that excites you particularly versus something where maybe you're like, yeah, that that's something I would play. I get why they cast me.

Michael Stuhlbarg: Oh, surely. Um, when someone sees you a way that you don't necessarily see yourself, it's actually quite exciting because you haven't spent any time necessarily thinking about who that individual is or how they may comport themselves. Whereas if it's something you may have had your eye on, you probably bring some baggage to it. So I brought no baggage to this. And that was, um, that was great. It's an absolute delight to be surprised when things come along, when someone sees you a way you didn't see yourself because I've found in the past that most of the things that have come along that have been surprises have been really, really fun to work on. 

David Canfield: Um, with Richard, the physicality and the speech patterns and everything are very specific, uh, both in the way you play him and in, uh, and in real life. Um, I know you're known as someone who, who prepares quite, uh, thoroughly for parts with this, uh, there's obviously some material of him, uh, available, like a very long deposition video. Um, but was there anything particularly difficult for you in king into him? Something that was a little bit harder to... took a little bit more time to click maybe? 

Michael Stuhlbarg: Well, um, what I had to go on was a very specific thing. As far as I could tell, they had fairly scoured the internet to remove as much information or photographs of who he was previous to 2015. Also, all I had to go on was a deposition video and they had not put the entire deposition online, or at least I couldn't find it. So I had about 28 minutes of it to comb through. 

David Canfield: Oh, wow. 

Michael Stuhlbarg: And there were little clues of things here and there and the rest of it was trusting the writer, Danny, because he knew so much about the Sackler family. Uh, and if I had questions, I'd ask him. Um, trying to read as much about him as I could, uh, everything factors into how you end up playing something

David Canfield: With both Richard and David, your character on _The Staircase_, uh, which also aired the spring, both have been at the center of some controversy with the shows. Um, as in, from what I understand, Richard literally had his lawyers send you a letter during filming on _Dopesick_, correct. 

Michael Stuhlbarg: Yes. 

David Canfield: Yeah, which is a first I'm assuming? 

Michael Stuhlbarg: For me, it was. Yes.

David Canfield: Obviously you're playing a character in, you know, in both shows cases, characters, and your goal isn't to make the, the real people happy. But I, but I am wondering how you navigate it knowing these folks that you're playing are not only speaking out against the projects you're and your roles, but saying, say, this didn't happen. You're getting this wrong. How do you square that in your head as you're playing them? Um, and, and even as you're hearing it after you've already completed the project? 

Michael Stuhlbarg: Right. Well, they were different. The two projects were quite different in terms of communication. Initially with _The Staircase,_ Antonio Campos, our director and showrunner had been involved in the idea of creating this piece for, I think, 12 years or so. And he knew David Rudolf and connected the two of us together. So I traveled to David's home and spent a day with him in his law offices and got to meet his wife and his kid. And, and, uh, we had a really lovely time uh, chatting about, you know, he answered every question I had and, uh, and, and went out of his way to make himself available to all of us to ask any questions we wanted to, which was delightful. I think his issues simply lie in some creative decisions that were made in that our piece was based on the documentary. But, uh, not meant to be something like a documentary where it's exactly the same. It was a dramatization. Whereas the other project, we felt it was probably to our best interests to stick with what Danny wanted to do with the project. And it felt probably, uh, wiser to do that as opposed to engaging with the Sacklers because of issues of litigation and otherwise. It's a, it's a slippery slope. So, uh, I try to take the advice of those people who I'm working with and, uh, that's what I did in that instance. 

David Canfield: Do you sweat the details a little bit more closely as a result maybe? Just knowing that, you know, in, in the case of both of these projects, the subjects are quite fraud and you know that once it comes out that a lot of people are gonna have a lot to say, and, and you're playing, especially in _Dopesick_, uh, I man, uh, at the center of that, of that story. In a certain way center- 

Michael Stuhlbarg: Absolutely.

David Canfield: Of the negative part of the story. 

Michael Stuhlbarg: Well, no, I, I, I absolutely, I do. I also find that that's where, where the fun lies in the details of things. So it will help everything I do to pay as close attention and to learn as much as I can, yet understanding that we are telling a particular version of the story and hoping that, um, whether or not the person I'm playing is going to watch it, but that I honor what it was that they went through. I mean, I really try to not judge who it is I'm playing. I'm, I'm stepping into someone's shoes and trying to navigate what it must have been like under their circumstances to do what it was they were doing. And the more you learn, the more you have to go on. And yeah, it's been a delight for me in the past to engage with the real people when I've had the opportunity to do so. And I, I, I do enjoy it and yes, of course, it's unfortunate if the project turns out to be something that they have issues with, but, um, at the same time that's part of the, of the- can be part of the territory.

David Canfield: Yeah, absolutely. I wanted to zoom back a little bit, having followed your career for, for quite some time, uh, and you've been, uh, one of my favorite actors for a long time now, and I had some awareness of your work before _A Serious Man_, but I, I would say for many that was a particularly significant introduction. It must have felt that way for you as well. 

Michael Stuhlbarg: It was, yeah, it was everything, really. It was an opportunity that I, I ha- I was so grateful for. And, um, and yes, it was a huge kind of introduction. Even though I had been, you know, doing stage work in New York professionally for 20 years before that. 

David Canfield: Did being the lead come for you with a certain amount of pressure? I, I know by this point on Broadway, you'd nominated for a Tony. You were quite well established, uh, in the New York theater scene. Um, but it is still a different kind of thing to be the lead of a Coen brothers movie. 

Michael Stuhlbarg: Absolutely. Sure. I mean, really, it became a kind of opportunity for me to be in front of the camera as much as the character was because up till then, the things I'd done on film had been very small. A day here, a day there, that kind of thing. So I talked to Joel about it initially in terms of, for lack of a better word comfortability in front of being in front of a camera. And, uh, he asked me a little bit about whether I would prefer to look at what it is I'm doing or not. And I said, why don't you just, if you feel like I need to see something, show me. And if you don't, that's fine, we'll just keep going. But I had enough time to prepare for it. And so I just prepared it, like I would do a play or whatever, get to know the whole arc of the, the character, and so I was ready. I think I was just, I was just ready in a way that I had never been perhaps before. 

David Canfield: Did you end up watching as you were going? Or how did that resolve? 

Michael Stuhlbarg: No, as it turned out, no. I just trusted my, my collaborators, Roger Deakins, and that he would, uh, if he thought we could create a different image, I just listened to what I was told and, uh, offered what I had to offer up. And if they were happy, I was thrilled. 

David Canfield: The, the lineup of directors you've worked with from that moment is pretty remarkable and they're all known, or many of them are known for, for unique ways of working, let's say. Uh, so, so with the Coens for example, was there anything about their process that particularly helped you as an actor or that informed the process of filmmaking in a way that you've carried forward? Uh, something you took away from that project? 

Michael Stuhlbarg: Yes, absolutely, a couple of things. Number one, there are no rewrites. The script is in a place where it's finished. So it was the same when I read it first to when I arrived on the days to shoot the thing. So nothing was changing, which is a great, great benefit in terms of preparation. Also, Joel told me that he found that my rhythms were a particular way, and he said, you know, if you, if you connect your thoughts a little bit more together as opposed to breaking them up as much as you seem to be, there's a better chance that the editor in post will tie everything that you're saying together as oppos, as opposed to giving him a space in which he can cut.

David Canfield: Right. 

Michael Stuhlbarg: So that's something that I brought with me, um, which is an interesting thing to consider, because I wasn't thinking about that at all. But um, primarily it's how, how well they planned to make what it was they were gonna make. We had a certain amount of time and we ended up finishing a week ahead of schedule and under budget because they had planned so well. You know, and the extra time that they found that they had, if they saw something on the day, it allowed them time to shoot some things that they hadn't thought about, which was great. So if I ever get the opportunity to make something myself or ever choose to do that, I certainly have a wonderful, uh, template in terms of how they make what they make to have it be as finished as possible. And also they storyboard every single shot and give it to the actors on the day so that you know, how many shots there will be. So you're a part of the process as much as, as they are while you're inside of it. You know how many shots there's gonna be and how long your day is gonna be. So it's, it's an ideal way of making films.

David Canfield: I would imagine it was also a, a pretty good education for someone who hadn't done films in that kind of capacity before to be able to have that access to their process. 

Michael Stuhlbarg: Yeah. It was the beginning of a learning process for me of understanding how films are made, what film acting is, and I really think it has everything to do with my just being, being ready to enter that world at that time after really struggling for a number of years and not understanding why I hadn't been utilized much. I just didn't think I, I knew what I was doing. 

David Canfield: So, so coming off of that movie, you mentioned at the beginning of this still not having a ton of choice say, but it was, uh, obviously very well regarded, moving in performance. So what, what did that moment look like of uh, the potential of a, of a screen career in a way you hadn't had before? Um, I know you've done _Boardwalk Empire_ pretty quickly after that, but what, what was that experience like of just coming off of that movie and seeing maybe something new ahead of you? 

Michael Stuhlbarg: It was a delight because I, I didn't know that I would have that kind of an opportunity to work with people that I admired. All I was trying to do was do the best work I could in whatever venue that happened to be. And I guess they had also seen some of my theater work, so they were familiar with what it was I had done before or could do. So they weren't, I wasn't like I was being picked out of, of nowhere. Uh, they knew me a little bit and they knew what I, a variety of the things that I could do. Um, but in terms of that time in my life, it was an opportunity. It was a chance to actually enter the world of cinema and film and, uh, on camera work that I hadn't had the chance really to do or to understand. And I was thrilled to have the chance and it opened doors to me that wouldn't have been opened, so I owe them everything, really. 

David Canfield: One thing you mentioned with _A Serious Man_, which is similar to a play is getting the whole arc of the piece in advance and working off of it. Going into _Boardwalk Empire,_ of course you don't have that. Um, most definitely. Did you find starting TV in that way where you're playing bigger characters who have season series long arcs, difficult or intimidating maybe to have that level of spontaneity required?

Michael Stuhlbarg: No, uh, no, no. It was just a challenge. It was, you know, of course you wish to know what was gonna come up, but the scripts weren't there. So you just played what you were given and gave them as many options as, uh, as you could think of. And see where things could, could go and learn as much about, in my case, my character was an another historical character. Somebody who had actually lived, not fictional. Uh, and so I had a, a ton of information to dig into and to learn about him. So that's really where I put my attention, but no, I wasn't intimidated, but I was thrilled at the opportunity to get to work with an amazing cast and to be with Mr. Scorsese and Terry Winter and all those seasoned pros. And I was so delighted to be amongst that group of people. Once again, just another opportunity and, uh, you hope for the best and you give your heart to it and you hope that something great comes out of it.

David Canfield: Now, of course, you've done quite a few limited series, and a lot of them are quite heavy I should add. _Dopesick's_ a very heavy show and _Looming Tower_ was as well. That was for your first nomination. What does your attraction to the, that material look like? And how are you, how do you navigate at this point what is out there, what is available, what offers that there are, um, with hopefully a little more choice than before, at least? 

Michael Stuhlbarg: Yeah. I mean it, um, timing is everything and I've been lucky to have been a part of those things. And once again, _Looming Tower _was also one of those things where I, I never would've cast myself in that part, but, um, Bash Doran, who was one of the writers on that piece, just thought I'd be right for it. She had an instinct, so I, I just, I just ran with. But in terms of choice, once again, it, it has more to do with timing, and if you are available for something, if they think of you for something, because all I've ever really wanted was an opportunity to show folks what I can do and for them to consider that in casting things. But honestly more often than not, decisions are made with people attached to projects early, early on. So a lot of the plum parts have been cast already. So unless you're making your own work, writing your own projects, producing your own projects, you just navigate what it is that comes towards you. And think about what you have to offer the project and, uh, try to make the best decision given the circumstances that you're in. I didn't set out to do a bunch of limited series and I've found now that I understand each of these genres a little bit better. I know what it means to make a limited series. I know what it means to be a part of a long running television program or a, um, the long form as Mr. Scorsese put it, and what it means to focus your attentions in chunks on a film. Whether it be, uh, a big budget film that may shoot for a longer time or something small that only shoots for a relative, you know, shorter amount of time. 

David Canfield: Yes. 

Michael Stuhlbarg: So if you're fortunate enough to be able to afford to not work and to perhaps be more choosy about things, you can understand how much you know that do... okay, do I wanna spend six months or seven months making, making a project? Is it worth that? Uh, or would I just prefer to focus my time on, in short bursts, you know, and, or do a play again, uh, which is something I still am trying to do because to me it's all about the opportunity, the role, the people you'd be doing it with, uh, the story you're telling the challenge, all of those things enrich what it is that the project hopefully will have to offer. But I'm not sitting back. I'm not looking at, you know, a million opportunities. The opportunities are usually... when they come, they kind of come out of the blue, at least in my experience. 

David Canfield: Yeah, you do have, there's a few directors that you've worked with a couple times. So for wrapping, I did wanna ask you about _Bones & All,_ which I believe you have a role in the new Luca Guadagnino film. Uh, and _Call Me By your Name_ is one of my favorites of yours. Yeah, how, how was that reunion? I know there's, this movie is shrouded in secrecy, um, but it is confirmed going to Venice. Um, so how is that reunion? 

Michael Stuhlbarg: Thrilling and it was a very small window in which we were making it. And, uh, it was like gorilla filmmaking basically. Catch what we can at the time that we have. So I was so grateful, uh, anytime Luca thinks of me and to get to be with Tim again, even for a couple of days was fantastic. And I loved the subject and I loved what he thought, uh, uh, from that I could do the, the thing that he threw at me, which was such a, uh, fun.

David Canfield: There's a tease. 

Michael Stuhlbarg: Yeah, no, it's, uh, I don't wanna say anything other than it was thrilling to be with him again, and I hope that we have many, many opportunities to play together again, because that's one of the pluses is if you stick around doing this for a while, you eventually, you start to feel like you have a, a vocabulary and a chemistry with these people and they feel like family members, you know? You just sort of feel like let's make something together and you... it's all the more fun because there's no, you don't have to censor yourself. You can just open your heart to each other immediately and try to make something fantastic. It's uh, it's a real treat. And so it was thrilling to be with him again. And like I said, I hope to, I hope we get to play together again. 

Katey Rich: That does it for today's interview episode. We'll be back on Thursday with our round table conversation and our continuing book club. In the meantime, finds at vanityfair.com. Find us on Twitter, @littlegoldmen, and on our own I'm @kateyrich and David? 

David Canfield: @davidcanfield97. 

Katey Rich: Also, please keep texting us, joinsubtext.com/littlegoldmen or text 917-809-7096. Our editor and producer is Brett Fuchs.