Katey Rich: Hello, and welcome to _Little Gold Men_ the award season podcast from _Vanity Fair_. Intro: "It's such an honor to present this next award." "And here are the nominees." "And the Oscar goes to..." "And the Oscar goes to..." "And I can't deny the fact that you like me. Right now, you like me." "I'm the king of the world!" "There's a mistake, _Moonlight_, you guys won best picture." Katey Rich: Hi, I am Katey Rich. I'm here with Richard Lawson. Richard Lawson: Hello. Katey Rich: With David Canfield. David Canfield: Hi. Katey Rich: And Rebecca Ford. Rebecca Ford: Hi. Katey Rich: We are here in the final week of Emmy voting, but as ever, when it comes to August, there are just all these little bits of fall film news to talk about. So we will loop back to the Emmys eventually, and you've been hearing our interviews are so many great contenders like this week's HoYeon and Christina Ricci. There's also gonna be _Bones & All_ which you'll hear us talking about later with Chris Murphy and Hillary Busis for our book club episode. Uh, it's premiering at Venice and we'll also be in New York. Um, But first fall festivals, Oscar qualifiers, Oscar apologies. Uh, there's a lot to get into. Um, so I wanted to start with the newest news as we record this, which is that many more titles are being added to the New York Film Festival. The biggest new title is _She Said_ the adaptation of a Jodi Kantor and Megan Twohey's book, which you heard us talk about last week. Um, Richard, anything else stand out for you on that lineup since you'll be our man on the ground at the New York Film Festival? Richard Lawson: I mean, that's definitely a big one, because we'd sort of been wondering where that was gonna land. But I think that that being a very New York story, it makes sense at that festival, you know? Um, I think it probably would've played well at Telluride in Toronto certainly, but that's, you know, that's a big one and I think we already talked about the _Inspection_, but like that one, I just feel like it keeps kind of, um, it's gonna be a Toronto, but it it's also gonna be one of the centerpiece kind of screenings at New York. And, um, that's a movie that I wasn't really aware of until very recently with Jeremy Pope and Gabrielle Union. Um, so it's shaping up to be a really good festival. And then you'll also have all the Cannes replay stuff, some of which I'll be watching for the first time, because you know, you can't see everything there. Katey Rich: And they also added _Women Talking_, which we've talked about already being in Toronto and _Bones & All _which is at Venice. David or Rebecca, does anything surprise you about what is being added to the New York Film Festival lineup? It's a really solid selection. It feels like there's just so many movies that we'll be seeing all within a month of each other. Rebecca Ford: It feels really, I agree really strong. I feel like even in these little announcements, it makes me consider films to be, you know, more of a, a threat to Oscar season if they pop up in this, like, I think, you know, _Bones & All_, I hadn't been paying that much attention to, but obviously it getting added here. And, and I think we're all very hot on, _She Said_, and, and excited to see that one and curious about it. So it definitely, I feel like even these little announcements just make, make the heat rise on a few of these films. David Canfield: Yeah. I think a New York premiere can be really smart, because as we've been talking about a lot, uh, Toronto, and that whole early September corridor is looking really crowded. And _She Said_, feels like a big movie destined to provoke conversation, um, as does _Till_ which is also world premiering here. And that when that announcement came I know we were all pretty surprised that this is where it was landing. Um, and I think it signals a certain confidence in it being more of an artistic, interesting movie than maybe we thought it would be, um, just based on how Oscar bound biopics tend to go. So that those are the two that I'm really looking at. I think those are the two big premieres that New York got. And it does feel like between those and all of the, you know, Toronto, Telluride, Venice premieres that are stopping over in New York, that this is actually gonna be a pretty pivotal award season stopping ground this year. Richard Lawson: Two movies that I have my eye on, I mentioned Cannes replays, um, one is _Corsage_, the Marie Kreutzer film that stars Vicky Krieps, um, that I, I liked at Cannes, and, but it kind of went a little under the radar there. But it's gonna show up at these fall festivals. And I think there is a chance if people like it enough that Vicky Krieps could be in the best actress conversation, because she is like pretty much in every scene of that movie. And it's akin to her _Phantom Thread _role, but not quite, I mean, it's different. So it's just another facet of, of her sort of this newish talent to arrive on the international scene. And then the other one is _Triangle of Sadness_ because the trailer for that came out, people on Twitter were like all about it because they focus a lot on the fun, funny stuff. And people, um, especially from the Philippines were like, oh my God, it's Dolly De Leon, who I had mentioned back in may as someone, a huge breakout from that movie. And I think the New York Film Festival will be a really pivotal place for that movie, um, in terms of the press attention and the sort of prestige of it. I don't think it'll get lost at Toronto, but it won't get as much of a focus because I think it's only gonna- it'll play probably that like Thursday Cannes catch up day. Um, but I think that if they play their cars, right, it's a Palme d'Or winner. I think _Triangle of Sadness_ is a movie that we absolutely should keep in mind for like big, big like nominations. Katey Rich: Um, and it, it it's Neon, right? Richard Lawson: Yeah. Katey Rich: Who, uh, who won Best Picture for _Parasite,_ so they know how to do that, uh, Cannes to Oscar's path. David Canfield: Yeah, and it's a movie about like rich people tearing each other apart and vomiting everywhere and I think that like, that plays a little ironically at something as glitzy as the New York Film Festival, maybe, but like, so that's true of Cannes as well. You know, and, and people were really on the wavelength there, obviously. So I don't know. I think just judging from the reaction to that trailer online, which I know is just sort of a echo chamber sometimes, but, um, I, I didn't realize quite how much that movie would be like on people's radar in a way that it is. Katey Rich: Yeah, I think we're doing something that it's, it's hard not to do, but every year we kind of see all these movies at Cannes and then we sleep on them for a while. Then all of a sudden in November, it's like, oh wow, everyone really loves _Drive My Car._ Like it, it's hard to gauge that kind of momentum, but I think you're absolutely right, Richard, that's like, one of these titles are like _Decision to Leave_ the Park Chan-wook movie, like those are certainly not out of the race right now. Richard Lawson: No. Rebecca Ford: Yeah. I do think we need to keep an eye on _Decision to Leave_ because it is popping up at all these festivals. I think it's going to New York too, right? And then, so it does feel like it could really gain some momentum. I saw it in Cannes and, and really loved it. I mean, I don't know if it's gonna be a _Drive My Car_ sort of phenomenon, but, uh, it does feel like another one we should pay attention to. Richard Lawson: _Armageddon Time_ too. I mean, that movie had a very mixed reception at Cannes. I, I thought it was really interesting and, and worth debating and seeing and talking about and all that, you know, um, and that, you know, James Gray, the filmmaker is a very New York filmmaker and this is his return to New York after some time in space and the Amazon. Um, and- Katey Rich: It's at New York Film Festival also, right? Richard Lawson: Yeah. Sorry, I'm talking- yeah. I'm specifically referring to it being at New York Film Festival, um, is that I think that's kind of make or break for it. Like if it doesn't work there, if it gets as mixed a response as it did, it Cannes then I think that movie's chances for anything is, are, are pretty significantly dimmed. David Canfield: We've heard that cut has been updated, um, fairly significantly for, um, from what it was at Cannes, so it'll be interesting to see, uh, if that changes the reception at all too. Katey Rich: Um, well, let's jump to, to TIFF, uh, which is, uh, also on the horizon, even sooner than New York Film Festival. Um, they have these tribute awards that kind of happened throughout the festival and I feel like as in recent years they've become more and more prominent because they have this really, uh, uncanny Oscar predicting power. Like last year they gave us big award of Jessica Chastain back when only Richard Lawson thought that she might win for _Eyes of Tammy Faye. _ Richard Lawson: I didn't really think that. I wrote something about how good she was, but no, don't, don't gimme that credit. Rebecca Ford: Just take it. Katey Rich: You and the good people of Toronto. Um, so Sam Mendes has been announced as a, uh, I think the recipient of like the Roger Ebert award, uh, the Ebert director award. Uh, and so he'll be there with _Empire of Light,_ uh, which we have talked about as seemed very up the Oscar ally, and I mostly just find it interesting. Um, because you know, _American Beauty_ started its Oscar run there in 1999. Um, but then with _1917, _his last movie, it was like one of those infamous like late breaking, like we're gonna swoop it and win Best Picture efforts and it didn't work. So has Sam Mendes learned the, the festival slog is what he has to do to make it all the way. David Canfield: From, from what I remember of _1917_, it, it was shot, it started shooting like that April and so it really had, there was no ability for it to do any kind of festival run, um, so maybe he misses it. Um, yeah, it sounds like it's going to Telluride based on the, the language of its, uh, TIFF, premiere uh, description, but, um, yeah, I think clearly TIFF has no... has a really good track record of tipping strong contenders. It is among the most mysterious movies premiering, uh, in September, just because the log line is extremely vague and- Katey Rich: It's not based on anything. David Canfield: It's not based. Yeah. It's not based on anything. It's got an interesting mix of, you know, heavy hitting, heavy hitters in the cast like Olivia Coleman and Colin Firth, and Michael Ward is playing a pivotal role in that and is being, um, highlighted as a potential breakout uh, so it's it.... yeah, there's a lot of questions about it, but clearly this is a, a vote of confidence from Toronto. Richard Lawson: It being about the movies, I mean, that's, you know? Yeah. Um, but it's interesting, David, you said the thing about _1917_ starting filming in April, that was not a technically complex movie. So I don't know why he couldn't have just gotten it done for September? David Canfield: It was one take, it took like five days. Richard Lawson: Exactly. You're done by late April at the latest, yeah. Katey Rich: So jumping ahead to the Oscars themselves, um, you know, the Academy Museum and the Oscars, they're doing stuff all year round, especially with the, the museum now open. The programming is really fascinating, but I was so struck by this release that, uh, came out yesterday in which, uh, Sacheen Littlefeather who accepted Marlon Brando's, I guess didn't accept Marlon Brando's, uh, Oscar for _The Godfather,_ um, that was kind of the point of the speech. Um, received a apology from the Academy and is also going to be holding a, a night of conversation, reflection, healing, and celebration at the Academy Museum in September. Um, and the _Hollywood Reporter_, uh, your former, uh, home base, Rebecca had kind of this interview with her just about the entire experience. And that was just, you know, we we've known for a long time, and I think anyone who goes to the academy museum knows that a lot of the current effort of the Academy is to reckon with the past and the uglier parts of the past. Um, but I just kind of never thought I would see this specifically happen. Um, and Rebecca, I think we were talking about it, you seemed as struck by this as I was. Rebecca Ford: Yeah, I, I, I'm so curious about the timing. Um, I mean, I'm so glad that this happened and, and obviously that there's gonna be this event sort of giving her the credit she deserves for what was a really brave action and that affected her life so deeply, um, by sort of the hate she received after that. But I, I'm like why now? I mean, it's funny because people like us, you know, we see this video pop up every, I feel like every few months, because it just was such a shocking moment. Katey Rich: I think it's at the Academy Museum. I think it's playing in that like reel of acceptance speeches that they have. Rebecca Ford: Yeah. Well, really that's so interesting because I just wonder when the conversation came up that was like, we need to make this right. And, and the apologies from David Rubin, who is the outgoing president, so, you know, this was obviously in the works, I think it was sent to her in June, so this was in the works for a while. I thought maybe this was something with the new leadership, but, you know, it's obviously been something they've been thinking about doing for a while. Um, and so it's a really interesting, and I think exciting decision that they've made. Richard Lawson: And just reading that, that piece, uh, that interview with her, like, and, and the way the article briefly delineates the immediate response to her speech at those Oscars and like John Wayne having to be restrained from rushing this stage to do God knows what you know, uh, and people doing all manner of like heckling and all that stuff. It's just like, that wasn't that long ago, you know? And we have certainly had plenty of actors who have given activist speeches on that podium and have not had the same treatment, mostly because they're white, you know, or the times have changed, hopefully at least a little bit. Um, so you know, it's a, I think that that incident often gets talked about like soy bomb, you know, the, the guy who danced well, Bob Dylan played at the Grammy's or something like, but it was not some little Oscar history oddity. It was something more significant than that I think, yeah, deserves this kind of reflection, not just a sort of like kitchy kind of novelty, remember when that happened kind of thing. Katey Rich: Yeah. If you haven't watched that speech or haven't watched it recently, I really recommend it because she's so like sturdy and polite and it's not like she's like coming up to like, you know, it's not a protest moment. It is a like respectful appearance on a stage to try to get people's attention, and she's met with those heckles and it feels so out of proportion to what she's bringing to the stage. So watch that speech, if you haven't. Okay. Two more bits of Oscar news, uh, both about, uh, people qualifying for Oscars that maybe we thought were out of the game. Um, the _Hollywood Reporter_ had a whole, like, I guess an exclusive that, uh, Taylor Swift's short film _All Too Well_, which premiered in theaters last fall, um, and I, I, I feel like we talked about it at the time, because it premiered in October and the qualifying period for short films, uh, is different than it is for features. It runs October to the end of September. Um, so she's gonna qualify for the, uh, Best Short Film Oscar. Um, and according to Scott Feinberg at the _Hollywood Reporter,_ there's a top consulting firm working on the campaign. I'm trying to figure out who it is. I don't know if I need to rat, to rat them out if they are, but, um, the thing that I wanna say is that Taylor Swift has been eligible for multiple Oscars for songs and for the documentary, for the documentary _Miss Americana_ and keeps not getting nominated. So I would say, don't get your hopes up too much. I, I like _All Too Well_ a lot, but I feel like her Oscar track record is sketchy at this point. Richard Lawson: What if she was a double nominee this year? For, for that and the _Crawdad's_ song? Katey Rich: Is that crawdad song any good? I listened to it one time. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Katey Rich: And it's exited my brain. Richard Lawson: It's fine. But that movie was like a little hit, you know? David Canfield: Yeah. Richard Lawson: Um, the _All Too Well_- did she direct the _All Too Well_? Katey Rich: Yes. Richard Lawson: She did. Katey Rich: Yeah. Richard Lawson: Okay. Yeah. That's right, yeah, with Sadie Sink? Katey Rich: And, um, a guy. One of those- David Canfield: Dylan O'Brien. Katey Rich: Yeah. One of those young.... David Canfield: That guy. Richard Lawson: That would be fascinating. I mean, look, Christine Lahti has one of those Oscars, you know, we had her on the podcast to talk about that. Katey Rich: We sure did. Richard Lawson: Um, uh, there are other celebrities who have those too, Martin McDonagh. Katey Rich: Well and Kobe Bryant, Kobe Bryant got the doc one. Yeah, Riz Ahmed in this category. David Canfield: Martin McDonagh actually won. Richard Lawson: Yeah. David Canfield: Before he made a feature. Richard Lawson: _Devil Wears Prada_ director, David Frankel, you know. There, there's a long history of interesting live action short, right? Yeah. Katey Rich: Live action short. Richard Lawson: Like of, of winners there. So that, that's a really good way to get that EGOT. You know, like a really weird... not a, not a frequent one, but it does happen. Katey Rich: Uh, and then the other person who's entering into the race, um, which we talked about at length, uh, is Emma Thompson in _Good Luck to You, Leo Grande_. Um, it was released exclusively on Hulu by Searchlight, but released in theaters worldwide. Um, and it seems to me that more or less because of the complications of a Sundance acquisition during the peak of OMICRON when you know, movie theaters were such a question mark, uh, it's going to qualify for Oscar consideration after all. I'm thrilled about this. I think she's great in the movie as we talked about, but I am kind of puzzled by just the, the shakiness of the rules? Am I being a stickler or is this kind of weird? David Canfield: I think it, a lot of people were scratching their heads over, you know, the Searchlight appealed the decision. Um, they of course also acquired, um, _Fresh_ out of Sundance, which then competed for the TV movie Emmy and was not ultimately nominated. In terms of distribution here in the US the releases were exactly the same. So I don't really see what the difference is. I, I think they cited, you know, going into theaters internationally, um, which to my mind wouldn't impact a, an Academy decision on which votes within the United States. Uh, and the qualifying run is determined by exhibitions within the United States, but Emma Thompson absolutely amazing in this movie. And we, it is been too long since we've had an Emma Thompson Oscar campaign. And I have to think if Searchlight went to this trouble to really reverse the Academy's decision and, and challenge what the policy was that Emma Thompson's gonna be out there, you know, actually campaigning, which I think is kind of exciting because she's delightful and funny and has a lot to, always has a lot to say and this is a, a really worthy role for her to go for it. Katey Rich: Yeah, it was _Saving Mr. Banks_, I guess that she was on the trail for, in 2013, 14 or so and she gave the best speeches. Um, and that movie was fine. Um, but she was just such a wonderful presence to have out there. So I'm with you, David, that anything that gets her on the circuit is a bonus. Richard Lawson: But do we think that, and Rebecca and David, you would know better than I would about this, but like, do you think there's a chance it would get some sort of like reconsider like release in theaters or like, would they go to that length to do it? Because I, you know, the movie got good reviews and people are aware of it, but it's now just kind of languishing on Hulu and I haven't seen a lot of people talking about it. Like, how do you think they would go about getting it back in people's heads? Is it just getting Emma Thompson out there? David Canfield: I kind of think it is. I mean, if you think about _Coda_, I remember when you know it, Apple released it in August, uh, on the streamer, it just didn't feel like it, it landed in any sort of way, but it was the cast and Sian Heder hitting every single event and really winning the entire town over that pushed that movie to the front of the race. And, um, I think, you know, this movie is a very, very intimate small scale two hander, and she is the face of it. She is, um, you know, both actors are, are terrific, but she is by far the more known one. And so I think she's really the selling point. If they get it into theaters, I mean, I think that's icing on the cake, but she would have to be the one to, to push herself, I think. Richard Lawson: And if Dar, you know, if Daryl McCormack wants to hire me as any kind of consultant or anything, I'm available. Just putting it out there. Rebecca Ford: Yeah. I think we can expect to see sort of those cocktail reception screening things, you know, that we see every season. Um, with a lot of Emma Thompson available, but I, I, I just wonder if this, you know, if there are conversations going on at Netflix or other streamers about what they should be doing now, because you know, if you look at this timing, this movie came out and went to streaming in June, and the rules were changed back to require theatrical release in May. So that means anything that played on streaming before June, you know, could be appealed if, if the streamer wanted to do it. I mean, it does, I think open sort of an interesting can of worms and, and maybe only for this year, because you know, this is all tied to the COVID theatrical issues, but I don't know it's, I mean, I, I definitely agree that this performance and film deserves to be in the conversation, but what does it mean? What are the other streamers thinking about it right now? Katey Rich: Well, and even Hulu, they're gonna have _Fire Island_, which is, I think is just gonna be a TV movie competitor, uh, at next year's Emmy's. Rebecca Ford: Um, yeah. And arguably, if that could have been part of the, at least the Globes, you know, we would've had a chance to be a part of that conversation. Katey Rich: Yeah. If it's not hard enough to know what's on Hulu or Disney Plus or in theaters like this just add a whole other element to it. Oh, Rebecca, you brought up the Globes, um, which I guess they're on your mind because you- Rebecca Ford: Always on my mind. Katey Rich: You wrote about them for us last week. Um, I mean, it was kind of a story about what's not happening yet because there had been a report that, um, NBC had signed a deal with them to bring the Golden Globes back to television early next year and what you learned in your reporting is that that's not quite true, but probably will be true soon. And, um, but that doesn't mean that the drama about the Globes is over in Hollywood yet, right? Rebecca Ford: Yeah. It's um, and most people agree that this deal is gonna make and the Globes will be back on television. Um, but what I've found so interesting is sort of the way the publicists of the town have been divided into factions. Um, you know, there's a, there's a group that's sort of working with the HFPA and has come around to the idea of like, let's give them a chance. They've done a lot of changes. You know, I was sent this six page memo, um, of all the changes that the HFPA has, has sort of listed that they've done in the past year. And, you know, it can be argued how many of those are, are deep, genuine change, and how many of those are, uh, sort of window dressing, which is exactly the argument that the other publicist faction is making about. They just don't feel like a lot of this is, is real change and they don't feel like they're- it's being communicated what is gonna happen moving forward. Like, yes, they added more members to the group, but how many are they gonna add in the next year and the next year? Um, and there's no sort of, you know, outline for where they go from here, if they are back in, in Hollywood's good graces, because I think everyone hopes that the change continues and this group just starts to get, um, more diverse and, and better in the next few years, um, as well. So I I'm curious what this means for talent, obviously. You know, you need to have talent show up to this, uh, event. And I think a lot of people will, but I, I do wonder if there will be some big names that aren't, um, at the event or doing the press conferences and things like that. Katey Rich: Like if I were to place my bet, I would think that the Golden Globes will happen. There will be some notable absences. Like in your piece, Rebecca, you pointed out Tom Cruise who returned his three Golden Globes, like if he gets nominated for _Maverick_ he probably won't show up, but it seems like they could there's enough of a critical mass to make it pretty normal if it comes back. When it comes back. Rebecca Ford: Yeah. I, I feel like there's a lot of people, especially the studios, that just wanna make it feel normal again. So I do think Hollywood can put on a, a show and fake it that it's gonna, uh, it's gonna be back this year or early next year. Katey Rich: So we do wanna note before we head over to book club, that it is the week of Emmy voting. If you're an Emmy voter, get those ballots in. Um, and David, you had something interesting to throw out about _Better Call Saul_, which is nominated this year, but also just aired its final episode this week. Um, and I think especially with, um, Emmy's round two voting, like it's hard to move the needle cause a lot of these shows are done and there's not like as many events as there are for the Oscars, but you seem to think that _Better Call Saul _has really, um, edged edged ahead in a way. David Canfield: Yeah, I, I think this is a show that Emmy voters have always liked enough to nominate, but have never given it a single win in its now six seasons it's been nominated for 46 Emmys, uh, without a single win. And look, I think this was like one of the most cynical genius release strategies I've seen for, for, from an Emmy point of view for a TV show, because the final season was split into two halves, as _Breaking Bad_ was, and many other shows have been, but these last episodes truly aired week to week in the absolute lead up to voting week. The finale aired on the day, you know, in the week that voting started and, you know, what, what voters is going to think that they're not voting for these episodes, which believe it or not are not eligible. They're actually voting for episodes, these episodes will be eligible a full year from now. But this, this entire release strategy is about knowing that this is their, their last stand to, to win something big. Um, they were able to cobble together enough big nominations. Bob Odenkirk back in the Best Actor race, Rhea Seehorn, finally Supporting Actress nominee. It's also in for Best Series, Writing and a few other categories, that it feels to me that if you're gauging momentum, uh, and this final season certainly had a ton of momentum. It was met with a ton of love when it aired on Monday night, uh, the series finale, that it, it it's competitive in a few categories that we wouldn't have thought it would be a few months ago. Just because of how much it's going to be at the forefront of voters' minds compared to a lot of these other shows that aired months, if not a year ago. Rebecca Ford: Yeah. It's very smart. I mean, when you think about something like _Squid Game_, it feels like it was on 17 years ago, so it's a definitely a smart strategy or luck if it wasn't a strategy. David Canfield: I, I think _Squid Game_ is a really good example because you know, if you look at the Supporting Actress race, HoYeon seemed like the obvious challenger to Julia Garner, uh, after winning the SAG award, um, but doesn't Rhea Seehorn feel like the more exciting choice for a lot of voters. She may be on her first nomination. They may have been very slow to warm to her, but this final season was so much about how great she is in just giving her that kind of showcase. And I think we know a lot of Television Academy voters watch the show. Um, so I really believe she can pull it off. Katey Rich: I mean, I think the question had been whether they would wait until next season, um, because you know, they'll have all of next Emmy season around to do it, but it kind of feels like now's the moment, right? David Canfield: I don't think any voter is thinking that. I don't, I, I would bet that a lot don't even know, honestly. I mean, I don't think they think in those terms. It's, it's all been the final season. There wasn't that much of a gap, like there has been with other season splits. Um, I think that it is widely considered to be how, you know, just how big the final season embrace will be, but I think that. That's how people will be voting is thinking, this is the final stand. Rebecca Ford: Yeah. And next year will be incredibly difficult for them because it will feel like the show was on 17 years ago, so. David Canfield: Right. Katey Rich: Yep. Uh, well, we'll talk more about the Emmys. We're gonna have obviously some predictions, uh, leading up to these ceremony that is in, um, early September, uh, as we squeeze it in, amongs all the festival news. It really is just so much happening all at once. Richard Lawson: All right. Well, we're back now for another installment of our August book club. Um, Katey and I are joined by our wonderful VF colleagues, Chris Murphy and Hillary Busis. Hello to you both. Hillary Busis: Hello. Chris Murphy: Hello, hello. Hillary Busis: Ready to dig in? Richard Lawson: Yeah. So, uh, as we mentioned at the top of the episode, we're talking about _Bones & All_, which will soon be a film directed by Luca Guadagnino, starring Taylor Russell, and Timothée Chalamet and world premiering at the Venice Film Festival. Had any of you heard of this book or read this book before the movie was announced? Chris Murphy: Absolutely not. Hillary Busis: Absolutely not. Chris Murphy: Yeah. Hillary Busis: Yeah, it's been, it's been a while since I've been kind of plugged into the YA book sphere. Um, so yes, I had not heard of this book. In fact, when I started reading it so that we could have this conversation, I forgot what the movie was. I knew that there was a Timothée Chalamet cannibalism movie, but then I started reading the book and didn't make the connection that this was that. And then the very first page, a baby eats her babysitter and I was like, wait a minute what? What's going on here? Richard Lawson: Uh, so yeah, this is YA book, um, by Camille DeAngelis that I think was, it was certainly well reviewed and probably sold well enough obviously to get the attention of, um, you know, filmmakers and something that, you know, as someone I, you know, this was inevitable. You all knew this was coming. As someone who has written a YA book, um, yeah, what I admired about, especially the kind of opening stretches when we're jumping forward and backward in time, um, kind of everything up to when she meets Lee. The, the character that's gonna be played by Timothée Chalamet, the lead, the lead character's name is, uh, Maren, by the way. Um, is that it's, it's kind of lyrically written and it's dark and it's creepy and it's sad. The heroin is doing some really bad stuff, and yet we're still with her. And that to me felt like, I, I know how hard it is to main, to stay within the bounds of YA. You know, that's, it's kind of, their, those borders are not necessarily like written down somewhere, but editors seem to know like, eh, maybe reign that back in, or, you know, do this instead. And this book, I think for a good bulk of it, um, really exists at the very limit of those boundaries, which I really appreciate in YA because I think that kids, or even adults who like YA, they don't have to be sort of pander to and this book, I don't think does. Until we kind of get into the more boy girl stuff, um, with the, the Lee character. Katey Rich: Yeah. Someone who doesn't really know that much about YA and like, I'm not that clear on the limits of it. Like, I, I was struck by kind of the frankness of a lot of those parts. Like it's not a super violent book, and we might be able to get into how violent we think the movie might be, but it did like, it doesn't feel like this is going to be a YA movie at all. Like it, that doesn't seem to be the vibe we're going for. So I'm interested in how like a screen version might transform it and push up against some of those limits you're talking about. Hillary Busis: Although I don't know, it does seem like the movie, at least from the brief glimpses of it that, uh, have been available so far. Um, I think there's just a teaser trailer right now. Seems like it's going to be a lot more romance focused than the book was. Like I was expecting romance, I guess, because of the genre and I guess, because I knew that the movie was happening. Um, but it's not a very romantic book. It's really more about Maren and her, you know, coming of age. Chris Murphy: Yeah. I felt that it was a kind of like listless and sort of like wandery and meandery in a way that I didn't, I don't really associate with YA and when I think about YA books that turn into movies, I immediately go like _Twilight_ or _Hunger Games._ Um, and this was very much not that and yet I could still see how... I was like more like, oh, this is more like Cormac McCarthy's _The Road_. They're just like wandering from town to town. So I, yeah, I also didn't get like intense YA um, like book two screen adaptation from the, from reading it. Hillary Busis: Certainly it's not very plot heavy, I think is what you mean, right? Chris Murphy: Yeah. Not much happens. Richard Lawson: If anyone who's watched Luca Guadagnino's _We Are Who We Are _like that kind of woozy coming of age existing on the realm of danger, like that's familiar to Guadagnino at least. So I think that makes sense. Katey Rich: Yeah. I think the power of the romance, it does make sense as something to pull out in the movie, especially because, and like, I don't want to be too harsh on the book and I'm interested in what you guys all think, but the entire idea is like, she's gonna go on a quest and find her father. And you're like, well, that's probably not gonna work out the way you think. And then she meets this guy Sully and, um, and he's like a weird, rough looking character. I think he's gonna be played by Mark Rylance in the movie, which I'm very puzzled by. And, um, Lee is like that guy's no good. She's like, no, he's fine. You're like, hmm I think this guy might not be any good. Um, and like, those aren't really strong, uh, things to hang a movie plot on. So leaning into the romance makes sense both for, um, the story and for what Guadagnino does well, I think. Richard Lawson: Yeah, in YA there was a kind of movement in the past few years. One that I really only became aware of when I read Good Reads of my book, where there is, you know, romance or almost some romance, I guess, with a pair of characters, is that there has been a push away from that of like, well, if there's a boy in a movie, in a story and a girl in a story that you inevitably have to get together, and I think they've been trying to kind of change that, that pattern a bit. And so I think that's a bit of what's happening in this book, but I could understand why someone like Luca Guadagnino, who is so into swoons and, you know, first roars of love and lust and feeling and all that as exhibited in _Call Me By Your Name_ and in what- _We Are Who We Are_ in particular. Although I would argue that like, you know,_ I Am Love_ kind of conjures up some of the similar feeling. Katey Rich: Yeah. Richard Lawson: That makes sense. I think it's also interesting that David Kajganich, who, um, worked with Guadagnino on _Suspiria _and _A Bigger Splash_, did the, a screenplay for this book. Um, and so whatever darkness he brought to those things, like maybe he'll kind of amp up what's already into DeAngelis's book, um, so I'm really curious. I, this is super anecdotal, but, uh, I, a friend of a friend... uh, well, sorry, Camille DeAngelis is a friend of a friend. I just found this out recently. Chris Murphy: OK. You have to disclose that. Richard Lawson: I literally found this out like three days ago. Um, and she apparently is very happy with the adaptation. Chris Murphy: Oh, interesting. Richard Lawson: That's, that's, so I wonder if that's, oh, it's very faithful or if I think it's more gonna be, it was a really interesting reimagining of the tone that the book is going for, if not the exact plotting, because I've done some little Googling and it does seem like there are rumors out there, mostly from Chalamet stans that they have amped up the romance and they've also significantly changed- Hillary Busis: Well we can definitely trust those people to know what's actually happening. Richard Lawson: And one, one of the little posts read, and for Chalamet fans also, I believe he is shirtless many times. Hillary Busis: Well, you gotta take off your shirt before you eat somebody or else you're just gonna be doing laundry all your life. Chris Murphy: That was a big plot point in the being messy after eating. It was a big plot point in the book. I'm gonna say this and I don't want to incite the ire of a bunch of Chalamet stands, but I don't know if he would be my first casting choice for Lee in terms of like what I pictured when I was mostly listening to the book. I listened to it on audio book. Um, he seems like a little soft, and a little... I don't know. I was thinking of somebody more rugged, you know, for the part. I don't know. Does anybody else think- Katey Rich: Name names, Chris. Who are you thinking? Chris Murphy: Like a young Taylor Kitsch from FNL, _Friday Night Lights_. Katey Rich: Oh, I see. Like somebody you could imagine driving a pickup truck. Chris Murphy: Yes, exactly. That is not what I get from lil Timmy, so- Richard Lawson: Little Manhattan boy, Timmy. Hillary Busis: New York lonely boy. Chris Murphy: Yeah, exactly. And then also after seeing _Don't Look Up,_ I was like, he sort of did this and it did not work for me, you know, with the mullet and the, a little bit more rugged. So I'm interested to see if he could pull it off. I believe in him, but he would not have been my first choice. I would say. Richard Lawson: Well, I think that touches on something interesting and not necessarily in the positive about the book, which is that like, this is this road trip across America, as these two teen cannibals, you know, just sort of try to figure out what to do with themselves. Well, there's a mission to sort of find her father, um, there, so we kind of crisscross around the middle of the country. We meet lots of local color, lots of, you know, and I think that- Hillary Busis: They also just keep meeting cannibals. They're so many more cannibals. Richard Lawson: After years of having met none. Yeah. Katey Rich: What is it the Baader-Meinhof complex, like when you start seeing it, it's everywhere. Richard Lawson: Exactly. Hillary Busis: Yeah. It's it's the Baader-Meinhof complex, but I think in their case, it's the Bighter-Meinhof. Katey Rich: Oh boy. Chris Murphy: That's good. Hillary Busis: I'm so sorry. Richard Lawson: No, no, no, no. That was a good, that was a worthy, um, to get to that pun, I think was important. Um, but I, I think that she has a little trouble rendering class differences and people and local dialect, and, you know, there's a lot of, sort of disgusted language about the squalor of certain people's lives and cigarette packs and food wrappers. And it's a bit like snooty in a way and, um, so it's kind of interesting that in the adaptation, like in the Timmy casting, like it kind of also fails what I think that character's trying to be, which is, like you said, Chris, a little bit rough around the edges, a little more rugged. Um, I mean, he's also described as having sandy blonde hair, but there are two hilarious bits where, um, Maren our, our protagonist, it, it kind of like, lustily almost describes Lee changing attire, and then she remarks the fact that he knows how to drive stick, which is like, yes, those two things are hot. But like from a very sort of like delicate, like cloistered perspective, I guess. Um, so I'm, I'm just kinda curious how like Chalamet will do that energy or they're just kind of reinterpreting the character. I mean, in the little teaser he has like pink hair. So he's like kind of, yeah... a different style than, than what is described in the book. Katey Rich: Yeah, it like the power of a central romance to this, like because in the book like Lee is there, but he's not in huge chunks in the movie. And like kind of the whole concept of Maren's cannibalism is that like when someone is attracted to her or someone wants something from her, she eats them. Like she, like, they can't touch each other basically. And I don't know if a movie version is going to do that too. Like, I think you want a, like the idea of a romance between people who like can't be near each other is really powerful, but that's not what the book is doing. But I think that's what I would want more of from a movie, both because Timmy's in it and because like, I think that is more effective with storytelling than like, I wanna go find my dad and see if he was cannibal. And then, you know, spoiler alert, it doesn't turn out. Hillary Busis: I mean, that is, is Twilight, like- Katey Rich: That's true, that's true. Hillary Busis: It seems like Luca Guadagnino's _Twilight_, then that would make a lot of sense and I'm very curious about what that movie looks like. And I, I wonder also, um, if part of the reason that the book doesn't, you know, is so focused on Maren in her journey and the romance is secondary and, you know, the, the road trip parts are kind of hazily rendered and all of that, I wonder if part of that is because it's a book with a mission, which is something that I didn't realize until I finished, uh, reading it. Um, Camille DeAngelis is a vegan educator and lifestyle coach, uh, which is- Katey Rich: Ooh Hillary Busis: Amazing and hilarious. Um, I just, I read a, I read an interview that she gave, um, or she did a podcast and I read the transcript of it. Um, and she says, the point of this book is that flesh is not food. A lot of people eat it. It's what we've been indoctrinated to believe is food after thousands of years we've been eating it, that doesn't make it right. That doesn't make it ethical and then just like- Chris Murphy: Okay, I missed that. Hillary Busis: Like I totally, yeah, also went over my head. I just thought that it was like a supernatural book. Chris Murphy: Yep, same. Hillary Busis: I didn't realize that I was supposed to come away from this thinking that like, maybe I should not eat burgers because it's the same as eating humans. As gobbling them up and leaving nothing but a plastic bag of their personal effects. Chris Murphy: Yeah. Okay. I honestly took a whole completely different takeaway. I'm sorry to Camille, but I was like, oh, it's kind of like, sort of brave and so wonderful that we have this like female protagonist who has this like deep flaw, but, you know, we still, you know, we go on this journey with her and we're not supposed to, you know, stigmatize her or hate her. It was sort of, I sort of took the, maybe the opposite, not that... I was like, I'm gonna go eat a burger. But I was like, oh, this person has clearly something that they're struggling with, you know, a disorder, you know, of cannibalism, if you will. Um, and yet, like we go on this journey, you know, she's a human, she's got feelings and, you know, dreams and wants to meet her dad and wants to fall in love. And oh, her plight is something that I like connected with. So I actually took the exact opposite of what Camille wanted us to take away. Richard Lawson: I don't think it's the opposite, it's just a different, I mean, I, I think that like, there's clearly something at work here where it's like we're, you know, through Maren, like predatory narratives are being sort of flipped and reclaimed in a way like _Jennifer's Body_ style or that movie _Teeth_ where, you know, oh, actually it's the, it's the, the boys who should be scared in these intimate situations. And I don't know if that like thematic point really gets anywhere productive at the end. You know, I don't wanna spoil anything if people listening haven't finished the book, but like, it kind of just like makes its point kind of obviously, and then ends. Hillary Busis: Yeah. It does feel like a point that's been made a lot, um, in a lot of different stories at this point. Richard Lawson: Yeah. So I, I would be curious of like how much of that thematic stuff, I mean, veganism or, uh, a certain look at, you know, at, at, at gender roles and things like that. Like if Guadagnino will tease that out more or kind of mute it under, you know, a sort of romantic swoony kind of road trip thing. My hunch would be the latter, but I don't, I haven't seen the movie yet, so I don't know. But, um, it, it, it, it, I think this could be an example of like what all the books we're talking about on this series, I feel like this could be the most different movie from the source material. And I kind of hope it is in a way. Katey Rich: When we get to _White Noise_ next week at, at least. Richard Lawson: Well, right. Yeah. Chris Murphy: Yeah. I will say, I, I guess speaking with casting, cause I was really trying to sort of picture who would be what, I'm really excited for Taylor Russell as Maren. I think she was wonderful in _Waves_ and she was like a really promising sort of, you know, youthful actor who, um, I, once I, you know, looked it up after I had finished the book to see who was, who was playing who I was like, oh, that's a really interesting choice for this character. Not like not to, again, um, uh, disparaged like the CW, but I could see this going in a big, like a very like CW, you know, Riverdale way. And I think, um, which I- Katey Rich: Have there been cannibals on Riverdale? That seems possible. Chris Murphy: I, I have to assume there have after, after all this time. But I do think as you know, Taylor, like as just very grounded, really, really great actor. So I'm, I'm excited. I think it'll be fun to see her and Timmy play off each other and it might give it like a, you know, a strong grounding, um, in reality, which will be nice. Hillary Busis: The pairing of them definitely feel more like art house, yeah, than this could have been. Richard Lawson: Right. Yes. And, and I think because _Waves_ like was heralded somewhat loudly at the fall festivals and then sort of didn't do anything when it came out, you know, it was supposed to be Taylor Russell's big like, you know, big season and it kind of didn't turn into that, but she clearly was a standout from that film. Um, this maybe could like, okay, here we go. Now she's the lead of this big, you know, Venice, premiering Guadagnino movie. Like that's exciting. Um, obviously this is a smart play because it's gonna appeal to art house people, but also teenagers and art house teenagers and the teenager inside of art house adults. And, you know, like , I think there's a lot of, um, there's a lot of- Hillary Busis: Those are the four quadrants, I think exactly. Chris Murphy: I think we're, we represent all of the four quadrants. Richard Lawson: All four quadrants will be satisfied, hopefully, by everything that this story entails. Katey Rich: What do we think about Mark Rylance as Sully? Richard Lawson: It's like a fun in version of his BFG character. Chris Murphy: Which is brought up in the book it's brought is brought up in the book. Hillary Busis: The BFG is the only giant who doesn't eat people, it's true. Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah. Um, no, I think he, I think he'll be good. I mean, you know, I, it's yet another opportunity for, I mean, at least if they're gonna, how much of the dialogue from the book is gonna be transposed, which in that dialogue that's written in a very, you know, affected Appalachian kind of twang sort of situation and I'm curious, like Rylance loves to do a weird voice and, you know, weird physical affect and a lot of that is described in the book. So I could see that translating, I just kind of saw Sully as much older than Rylance is, but I'm sure they can account for that. Katey Rich: I definitely imagine Troy Kotsur, which likes like, like long hair or something. Chris Murphy: He would be fantastic. Katey Rich: Yeah. Right. Hillary Busis: This is a, this is a very, um, specific, uh, reference, but I imagined the old man at the town hall meeting in blazing saddles who speaks in authentic frontier gibberish. Does this mean anything to anybody? Katey Rich: Maybe that's who, Mark Rylance, that's the basis of his character. Hillary Busis: I can only, I can only picture the beard that he's gonna have. Yeah, I it's gonna be gnarled. It's gonna be gnarly. Katey Rich: I'm, I'm looking at the cast list on Wikipedia, which like doesn't have a lot of characters assigned, but I'm imagining maybe Michael Stuhlbarg as like the, the nurse guy. Chris Murphy: Oh, so I was thinking André Holland as the nurse guy. Katey Rich: Well, I was what, like, I was, I was thinking Andre Holland as the father, but it could be like, those roles could be.... Chris Murphy: That actually makes a lot of sense given... Katey Rich: Um, Andre Holland as the, as the like, well meaning could be really interesting though. That, that would be fun casting. Chris Murphy: Yeah. Um, and then we got Chloë Sevigny too. Like there's like, it's kind of a stacked cast in a way that it like... I'm sort of curious, I'm like, oh, it, the script must be good because we've got a lot of really sort of fantastic actors that are involved, you know. Katey Rich: David Gordon Green acting in it, that's weird. Chris Murphy: Yeah. Richard Lawson: Um, so Chloë Sevigny I believe is playing the mom and is only in the very beginning, uh, obviously, um, and she, but she was one of the moms on, _We Are Who We Are_, um, and so that, like, that's them pairing up again as, um, and Francesca Scorsese who is listed on the Wikipedia for this movie was, is also a supporting character on _We Are Who We Are,_ so this is really just an add to watch that great underlooked show. Yeah, or overlooked show or whatever. Katey Rich: Yeah, you're really selling me on it. Richard Lawson: Um, there is a _Still Watching_ podcast about it if people wanna listen to it as they watch. But yeah, I guess it's just him re, re-teaming with these people. But I think my hunch is that like 85% of the screen time is just Russell and Chalamet. Katey Rich: Yeah, that would be an decent guess. Um, Richard, you bringing up, _I Am Love_ made me think about the way that food is shot in that movie. There's all these like slow closeups with fixed spotlights on beautiful plates of food, which makes me wonder how much cannibalism are we gonna see in this? Like there, it's not, it's kind of like delicately described in the book, but I kind of wonder if Luca is gonna go for it. Richard Lawson: I think we're gonna see a lot more than we do in the book. Yeah. Katey Rich: Are we ready for it? Hillary Busis: Well, I'm very curious about the mechanics of how she actually does this and she does eat people. Chris Murphy: I still don't understand. Hillary Busis: Bones and all. Like, does her jaw unhinge? I, I know that it doesn't matter. I know that it's a fairytale and that to be pedantic about it is like the most, I don't know, boring, possible approach, but how does she do it? Chris Murphy: Yeah, in the book, it was always like, I, it happened again. I did it. And it was like, okay. Like, it was like very impressionistic, like we didn't get like the details. And I also, I think cinematically, I'm not a big gory person personally, it's not my favorite thing. So I could see, you know, who knows in Luca's hands, this could be like kind of a squeamish watch depending on how sort of- Hillary Busis: Yeah. I'm nervous. Chris Murphy: Visceral that is. I'm like, I have got misgivings about it. Richard Lawson: Also, I feel like when a bear attacks like a, a hiker and they find the hiker, like there's still some of the hiker left and that's a bear. Like a teenage child... it would take them days to eat a whole person. Like I know they're sort supposed to be supernatural, but- Hillary Busis: And she's, and she's skinny and never like gets bigger and is always hungry, still. Katey Rich: Do they eat regular food too? Chris Murphy: Hobo stew. Hillary Busis: That's the part that got me that they eat regular food as well. I thought that it would be like a snake who eats a mouse and then like a week goes by, but it's not. Like they're just having normal meals, and then also like a dessert of a person. Katey Rich: I think it was Rebecca Ford who pointed out that a lot of the Amazon reviews of this book are from like crazed Timothée Chalamet fans who are just like, I don't get it. How does she eat them? This doesn't make any sense. One star. Uh, so we're not the only ones who are hung up on this. Richard Lawson: Uh, I guess I will be revealed soon enough. Um, I just noticed also that Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross wrote the score. Katey Rich: Yeah. Richard Lawson: Uh, so that's intriguing and the cinematographer is somewhat interesting. So I don't know. I, I feel like, um, a lot of our little quibbles about the book's plotting or the dialogue or whatever could be just sort of drowned out by interesting aesthetics and probably a lot more gore, which, you know, that'll, that'll har har eat up some time. Katey Rich: I feel like they've got another film this fall, and maybe I'm just thinking of this one, but like, I mean, those guys stayed busy. Richard Lawson: They did the Fabelman's as well. It's a really dark soundscape for Spielberg's- Chris Murphy: For Spielberg's life. Richard Lawson: Memoir piece. No, they did not. Chris Murphy: I am a little, I guess, are we gonna talk about the, the _Call Me By Your Name_, the Armie like the Hammer of it all. It's just- Richard Lawson: Oh, jeez. Chris Murphy: It's just really sort of crazy to me. Like of all the projects that Luca Guadagnino could be doing, right? That this is... of all the books. I didn't like read this book and I was like, oh, this has to be a film. Um, that's not, it didn't jump out to me as such. And then with the way that Timmy is, you know, promoting it online with the tweets about bones and boner bones and whatnot. I just, it's hard to separate from me right now from the sort of the dark legacy of Armie Hammer's involvement in _Call Me By Your Name_. I don't know. I was thinking about it a lot while reading it and I was like, this is, ugh. It was ick. Richard Lawson: I mean, I'm sure it will get commented on a lot, you know. I mean, Greta Gerwig's also a cannibal, so like, you know, but no one- Chris Murphy: That does, that needs to be said. Richard Lawson: She gets a pass for some reason. Chris Murphy: Double standard. Katey Rich: Hopefully they've got their, their talking point prepared on that. Uh, but it definitely is Luca being like, well, you think that I was gonna back away from it, but no guess what I'm doubling down on cannibalism. Chris Murphy: Really. Richard Lawson: Uh, well, as I mentioned, _Bones & All_ will be premiering at the Venice Film Festival on well, Wikipedia says September 2nd, so I guess the date has been set. Um, maybe that means the Venice schedule's out and I need to go do some work, but, um, I will be reviewing it, uh, from Venice to keep an eye out for that. And, um, you know, if people wanna read the book, I, I, I, I would recommend it. I mean, it, it, it goes down easy. Haha. Um, it's a quick read. Um, and I think also if you haven't read a lot of YA recently it is a good example of YA, like I said, kind of like doing the most it can without skipping over into, um, so-called adult literary drama. Well, that does it for this week's episode. Uh, as ever if you have any questions, comments, predictions, anything like that, you can reach us, uh, @littlegoldmen on Twitter. Uh, you can also text us using subtext, uh, at 213-513-7169. And you can find us individually. I'm @rilaws. Uh, Katey? Katey Rich: @kateyrich. Richard Lawson: Rebecca? Rebecca Ford: @beccamford. Richard Lawson: And David? David Canfield: @davidcanfield97 Richard Lawson: _Little Gold Men_ is edited and produced by Brett Fuchs and this week's award for the best description of how we're all gonna be feeling at the end of the festival season goes to Katey Rich. Katey Rich: I'm doubling down on cannibalism.