Richard Lawson: Hello and welcome to _Still Watching:_ _House of the Dragon_. I'm Richard Lawson Josh Wigler: And I'm Josh Wigler. Richard Lawson: And we're here today to talk about the season one episode one _premiere episode of House of the Dragon_, "The Heirs of the Dragon," uh, were gonna, we're gonna say that word dragon a lot on this podcast. Josh Wigler: It's so, so many times. Get- it's gonna, it's gonna lose all meaning within the next 30 seconds, I think. Should we just get a bunch of them out real quick? Dragon, dragon, dragon, dragon, dragon, dragon. Richard Lawson: Dragon, dragon, dragon. You- well actually speaking of dragons, um, on our preview episode last week, Josh, um, I asked us both to predict when we would first see a dragon and I believe I said in the opening scene we'll hear dragon's wings and then see a dragon and turns out I was right. Josh Wigler: it turns out that you know a thing or two about TV. Who knew? Richard Lawson: I mean, I think we there's so much to talk about with this premiere episode, obviously, um, because it's setting so much up for, uh, what promises to be a big and violent and robust season of, uh, _Game of Thronesy_ drama. Um, but I think there's also the context of it as it exists, like in our popular culture. You know, _House of the Dragon_ is obviously a prequel to _Game of Thrones. _It is one of several series that have been talked about planned. There was a pilot filmed for another show, um, that we're all spinning off of this huge global hit. Um, so Josh, now that we've seen episode one, um, and, and, and I know you've read the book, so a lot of this didn't come as a surprise to you plot-wise, but what was your impression? I mean, did it satisfy you in the way that you wanted it to? Did it confirm any fears you had about returning to Westeros? Josh Wigler: Yeah, it's fascinating. It's a, it's a little bit of all of the above. Though I am skewing more positive than, than negative for sure. Uh, I, I really... it is very strange to say this, Richard, about a show in which we saw, you know, people's heads implode with morningstars during jousting, uh, these horrific raids of King's Landing as led by Daemon Targaryen. The really, really brutal, um, childbirth scene that happens midway through this episode. This is a very gruesome episode of TV as _Game of Thrones_ often was, you know, throughout its entire run. So it's very strange when I say, it felt, it felt like going home in a lot of ways for me. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Josh Wigler: It felt, it felt very familiar. It felt like going back to an earlier time in TV for me to, to return to this world, to return to Westeros, to see, uh, see, see such iconography like King's Landing, see the dragons flying around, see a whole mess of Targaryens on my TV screen. That's something that I've always wanted to see. Even, you know, all the way back when it was just Viserys and Daenerys Targaryen back in the beginning of _Game of Thrones_. I don't know. I was, I was really struck by it. I was really taken by it. I was really impressed with the craft that went into building the episode and just how much budget is so clearly apparent here versus when you go back and you watch that very first episode of _Game of Thrones_. I don't know. I think side by side, I'm just, I'm I'm really, really impressed with how they, how they came out the gate flying on, on this one. I'm curious for, for you having not read the book that this one is based on, but having gone through all of the wars previous with the eight seasons of_ Game of Thrones_, what was this like for you to get back into, uh, Westeros with _House of the Dragon_? Richard Lawson: It's so funny that you said the kind of like nostalgic, like cozy quality because I, I reviewed, um, the first five episodes, uh, that review is on vf.com now. Um, and I kind of said the same thing. As violent and horrible as a lot of the imagery and, and sort of uh, other stuff in this episode is, um, I, I felt, yeah, it felt like kind of going home back to our muddy, you know, bloody miserable home that we spent eight years in. Um, and, uh, for that reason, you know, it, it felt good. I, I do have some questions, you know, um, based on this first episode about where a whole season of this can go, you know? Josh Wigler: Right. Richard Lawson: I know, for example, we talked about in the preview episode that, um, Milly Alcock who's playing, uh, Rhaenyra right now, she will at once- some point be replaced by an older actor and so will, um, another character. Um, and, and so I know we're gonna jump forward significantly in time as the season goes, but in this one episode alone, like I do wonder, um, you know, this is a story so far, I think, about one kind of close knit family. Uh, or at least closely, you know, aligned family and, uh, you know, how can that match the scope of, of the original _Game of Thrones_ series, which was, you know, multiple locations per episode and tons and tons of characters. So that's my one, like kind of cautionary feeling about it is like, um, like one cautious feeling I should say, is like, will this start to feel maybe too small at some point, which is kind of a, an insane thing to say about a _Game of Thrones_ show? Josh Wigler: No, it's, it's not. I mean, I think even just in this first episode, how far away are we getting from King's Landing at any point in time? You know, we're really, we're really located here. Uh, and when you compare that to certainly the later seasons, the deeper seasons of _Game of Thrones_, we're in Braavos you know, we're in Meereen, we are at the wall. We're all over the world of Ice and Fire. This feels very contained. You know, the, the really the furthest we, we go at any given point is the opening sequence in Harrenhal, uh, which took my breath away and I thought was, was a really, really wonderful place to start with this, uh, this earlier question of succession that kind of I think haunts the, the rest of the story that we're about to embark upon is this idea of this wise old king who really struggled with the idea of who should succeed him and in making sort of, um, something of a half measure choice, or at least something of a half-hearted decision that wasn't all the way in. All of the rest of this show is going to spill out. So I, I thought it was great to have that be in the ruined husk of Harrenhal, sort of this iconic destroyed castle that was one of the first major monumental locations in Westeros that was brutalized by the arrival of the Targaryens in the first place, to begin here, uh, sort of in this house of ruin as we're gonna be following the decay of the Targaryens here in this show, uh, or at least be, you know, kind of tracking why the Targaryens died out by the time that _Game of Thrones_ starts up, I thought was a really, really good, compelling choice. But I think it's, it's, it's very clearly centering on one specific thing. And, uh, while there's definitely a major, major, and it's worth talking about, illusion, uh, if not outright major reveal about the Targaryens connections to the White Walkers and all of the Night King drama from deep in _Game of Thrones_, it's very clearly much more about the Iron Throne, this show. That this is the Iron Throne show. It didn't end, uh, in a way that had everybody absolutely riveted by the end of _Game of Thrones_, but it feels like this is another pass at getting back into that intrigue, getting into the politicing of it all, and doing it with a bunch of characters that do come armed with some of the, the big supernatural accents of _Game of Thrones_, specifically in the form of the dragon. So is it gonna be bigger than _Game of Thrones_? I think in, in some ways it, it, it already feels that way to me. I feel like the scale of the show, even just within King's Landing, felt huge to me. And I felt like the emotional stakes immediately felt really, really big to me as well. But if you're looking at this as the show that's going to be crawling all across the globe of, of, uh, the world that Westeros is contained in, you know, I, I think it, it, it's a, there's a chance it's gonna leave you wanting, but I think that there, you know, it's, it's hard to get into you. You mention that Rhaenyra is, uh, currently played by Milly Alcock, Emma D'Arcy is going to be showing up later in the season to play this character, that suggests passage of time. Like it's extreme significant passage of time. So I think that the scope and the scale is gonna look different, but I don't think that it's necessarily going to be smaller. I think it's gonna be huge, I just think it's gonna hit different this time around. Richard Lawson: Yeah. And you know, if you think about this show as a project that could stretch on for seasons bringing us all the way up to, you know, when a young Daenerys has kind of spirited away from Westeros, you know, um, that can cover a lot. I mean, that, that they tell us in a title card at the start of this episode, it's 172 years before Daenerys Targaryen. Josh Wigler: Did you appreciate that? Was this, was this a little too on the nose, or do you think that this was, uh, this was important for the casual who's strolling in on an HBO Sunday night? Like we should just let you know right off the top, this is way before Daeni. Richard Lawson: Yeah. You're not gonna see like young Ned Stark anytime soon. Um, so I, yeah, I think that's important. And I think, you know, the, the thing, uh, toward the end of the episode, um, with King Viserys telling his daughter, who he's just decided to make his heir uh, and successor, and, um, you know, that's unprecedented in this world's history. Um, you know, he tells her about the sort of the prophecy and the White Walkers and the Winter and all that, and that, to me, felt like, I don't think this show is gonna get into that really that much. Um, but that was the kind of, you know, the, the, the other book end to there was the title card at the beginning of the episode, and then toward the end, there's the... and remember, this is all sort of part of this continuum of a story, um, that we've kind of seen played out. So I think, I think, I think basically the show or this episode, especially like had the job of, you know, reassuring past viewers who were not deep in the lore, who hadn't read the book, um, that this show is based on, that they're gonna be okay. They know where they are, you know? Um, and I think it does that well. Um, and I think, you know, it, it also has introduced us to characters who I find, you know, kind of immediately compelling. Josh Wigler: Yeah. Richard Lawson: Um, and so, you know, I think is this a show about Rhaenyra? I mean, and as much as there is a lead, is it her? Josh Wigler: I would say so. I mean, I, I do think, again, it is, you know, we are, we, we are trained when it comes to _Game of Thrones_ to be a little cautious of any one character is the lead. Uh, I think, uh, the, the first season of the series of _Game of Thrones_ really hammered that home pretty swiftly, or at least nine episodes deep you got the point. Um, so I'm, I'm a little cautious to say that any one person is the main character, but very clearly so much of the story engine is revved up via Rhaenyra Targaryen, who is King Viserys's uh, daughter, um, would be the heir apparent if not for the fact that she is not a man. Uh, and so it goes to his brother, Daemon initially. Um, but clearly by the end of this, the, the big Stark imagery, uh, not really, uh, involving a Stark, it's the big Targaryen imagery by the end of this first episode is Rhaenyra just by the throne with everybody pledging to her and pledging their, their loyalty to her eventual ascension to the Iron Throne. We do know from _Game of Thrones_ when Cersei Lannister was sitting on the Iron Throne for some time that, that was groundbreaking that a woman had not really sat the Iron Throne ever before. So does this story have the happy ending for Rhaenyra that certainly some of us are gonna be hoping for by the end of this first episode? We'll see how all of that shakes out, how all of that ultimately bears out. Um, but by the, by the end of this one, I think it's really clearly setting up that she is a huge deal in this specific story. But she's, she's not the only one. There's so much of the perspective is, is laid at the feet of Daemon Targaryen, I think Viserys as well. I think with Viserys, with Paddy Considine's character, you're kind of getting someone who is this fusion of not just, uh, you know, you know, obviously he's representing House Targaryen in a very major way, but I think he's kind of this fusion of Robert Baratheon in the king role of season one and Ned Stark, somebody who's trying to do right to some extent. Somebody who is trying to do this job, this very difficult, terrible burden of a job well, and maybe struggling a little bit through it and trying to find an honest path forward. I was really gripped by him in this episode as well. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Josh Wigler: But by and large, really, really hooked in through Rhaenyra's story. And to your point, the fact that she is played by one actor now and will be played by another actor later, I think that that actor, uh, Emma, D'Arcy, I'm very excited to see what they bring to the role because they have a very tough act to follow. I think that Milly Alcock brings it here as Rhaenyra, I really loved her right away. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Josh Wigler: Were you hooked in? Richard Lawson: Oh, she's great, yeah. And I think that the way the character is drawn, like, you know, look, if you've watched most of _Game of Thrones_, the original series, you know, to be a little suspicious of ice, blonde princesses who ride dragons. You know, and I, I don't think that this episode is like foreshadowing, any potential mega- megalomania that, that afflicted Daenerys. Josh Wigler: Um, I don't know, flip a coin, Richard. That's what they say about these Targaryens. You see where it's lands. Are they good? Are they bad? We don't know, the coin's not in the air quite yet. Richard Lawson: Yeah. And I think that like, you know, the show is, is... the show has it knows to, um, uh, let us be wary of the Targaryens, even though they are our lead characters. And I think that's reflected in the performances. I think Alcock is, is really terrific because, you know, you think, okay, we're, we're rooting for her. Like she's gonna break the glass ceiling of Westeros, uh, good for her. Despite the fact that, you know, she has to lose her mother and sibling to, to do that. Um, and then we kind of can see Daemon who, who has this, you know, leads the city watch and, and has this violent raid, you know, kind of law and order like iron fist kind of, um, brutality, um, that he wages on the city. Uh, and, and you could say, oh, the show is setting him up to be the villain. But, he and Rhaenyra have this connection that is that, you know, in this episode they speak, um, is it Valyrian the language, right? Josh Wigler: Yeah. Valyrian with each other. Richard Lawson: Yeah. So they, so they have this, this bond, um, that, you know, probably a lonely princess, uh, in this dank castle and she has this cool dashing uncle like, that makes sense to me, you know? And so is he pure villain or does she have a little of the villain in her? Um, I think that's a really in- those two characters are set up in very interesting, uh, relation to each other. Josh Wigler: Yeah, I also have to say, so, uh, the Valyrian language initially for _Game of Thrones_ and Dothraki as well created by, uh, David Peterson, the linguist and author, uh, and to hear it in, uh, this show to hear high Valyrian spoken conversationally, uh, between these two Targaryen characters felt really cool. It just felt very transportative. It felt very easy, which was really impressive to me from the performance standpoint, considering how difficult it must be to master this fictional language. Especially for, you know, a character who's, uh, or an actor and Milly Alcock who's not going to be a huge part of the show for the long term, you know, is playing a younger version of this really important character. Uh, that was really, uh, that was really amazing to me. I, I think that that dynamic between Daemon and Rhaenyra was really well established in this episode. And you're you're right to point out the, the complexity of the characters. _Game of Thrones,_ again, was very instructive in heroes could become villains or villains could become heroes. And really the reality is that no one is either thing necessarily their entire life. And, you know, you look at Jaime Lannister as somebody who starts off pushing a kid out a window and by the end of it, well, maybe by the end of it, you're like Jaime! Choices. Uh, but you know, before, before some of the final decisions that Jaime makes, I think you're a little more on board with that guy. So what kind of trajectory is someone like Daemon on? And then what kind of trajectory is someone like Rhaenyra on considering what we saw from Daenerys's story? You know, is this an opportunity for people who maybe didn't love the way that Daenerys Targaryen's story was ultimately told? Uh, you know, I think a lot of the, the critiques, uh, certainly center on the pacing of the reveal of Daeny's um, you know, uh, real, you know, break at the end of the show. Um, but there's also just, you know, uh, questions about the premise of that in, in the first place. I think maybe this show has an opportunity of you starting off with a character like Rhaenyra and watching her a little more closely and, and maybe not being quite so inclined to feel like any one person is automatically going to be the hero of the story. There may be some, you know, unsavory elements to, to all of these characters. But one thing that I think is illustrated really well here with, um, with meeting Rhaenyra as a teenager, uh, and seeing her at a pretty young age is exactly that. She's a kid. You know, she's a teen. She's, you know, at the, um, she's at the, the start of her life, ostensibly and what that can look like moving forward and the ways in which her seat and power might mold her alignment moving forward and the choices that she makes. I think it's really fun that we're along for the ride with her at this point in her life. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, you know, the, the shifts that, that probably her character will make, the more she moves closer and closer to that throne, um, I think could be really interesting when we reflect, reflected or kind of counterpointed, um, with, uh, Lady Alicent. Josh Wigler: Yes. Richard Lawson: Who is, you know, her sort of handmaiden, you know, she's a lady of the court. Um, her father is the hand of the king. Uh, and this episode, like you, you wouldn't, you would maybe think, oh, she's just the best friend character. She's gonna be kind of in scenes where, you know, Rhaenyra needs someone to bounce ideas off of or whatever. But this episode is, is shows you's like, no, no, no, this, this character is also someone to watch as like a, a player on the board, you know? Josh Wigler: Right. Richard Lawson: At this point, her father, um, Ser Otto Hightower,, uh, played by the great Rhys Ifans, um, he dispatches her for probably somewhat nefarious purposes to go kind of tend to with a grieving king. And you're like, all right, so here's, Alicent's storyline now kind of spinning into motion. Um, and I'm very curious to see how, uh, she and Rhaenyra kind of... I don't know if they'll stay friends, if they'll become enemies or whatnot, but I think that establishing that closeness and then having Alicent's father kind of violate that toward the end, I think is a really interesting, um, you know, inciting bit of plot. Josh Wigler: And for me as somebody who's read _Fire and Blood_, the, the George R.R. Martin book that this one's based on. Um, it's a great example of the ways in which the show is making good TV adaptation decisions. Um, because the book, you know, certainly speaks to the fact that there's a closeness between Rhaenyra and Alicent. But I believe that there's like a 10 year age difference between the two characters in the book. So this is one of those examples of, you know, fudging the timeline a little bit. In _Game of Thrones_ all of the Stark kids were like 7, 8, 9 years old in the book. Uh, they're obviously, you know, significantly aged up for, uh, the HBO adaptation. So there's a little bit of that that's going on here as well. I know that there's been a lot of talk about the fidelity that Ryan Condal, specifically as Martin's chosen partner in this, has towards the source material. There's this, you know, popular story about, uh, how there is a Rhaenyra Targaryen on the show, but there is also a Rhaenys Velaryon on the show and the names are so similar and we can't possibly change that cause it's so important that she has the name. And so I think that that's strongly suggests that there's just gonna be this uber loyalty to the book, but even in princess, Rhaenys who, uh, we see a little bit here in, in this episode, the queen who never was, who's passed over in favor of Viserys to become the king at the start of the whole show. She has, I believe she has black hair in the book. Like notable streaks of black hair. She's a platinum blonde Targaryen in this, so there are ways in which the, the show is already clearly making its own choices. The thing is that it's in conversation with Martin, so it feels like these choices are being made with the express approval of the person who created this story in the first place. So that gives me a lot more confidence in a lot of the, the zigging and the zags. This feels like minor stuff to, to even bring up. But I just wanna bring that context to the table as somebody who really loves the story that this one specifically is based on that there's already a couple of things that are, you know, notable changes, notable differences from my experience, reading the book to what's happening on the show that I think are, you know, getting, uh, big thumbs up from, from me. So I, that's one thing that this episode sold for me, Richard, is I feel like we're in confident hands here, um, making this return to Westeros. And I think that that's really worth pointing out with this reveal at the end of the episode, about what a song of Ice and Fire is. Um, you know, when Viserys is anointing Rhaenyra as his heir, he appoints her as his, as his heir, he has stripped that responsibility from Daemon after Daemon's whole 'king for a day,' uh, opa is a very light way of describing, uh, this really, uh, ghoulish thing that he says after the death of, um, the Viserys's wife and, uh, barely born child. Um, that he passes on, that Viserys passes on to Rhaenyra, this knowledge, that Aegon the Conqueror who came to Westeros, uh, ostensibly we thought to just conquer the place over basically a political slight is the story that has been told and has been reported. But no, there's more to it than that. That there is this dream, this vision that has been passed down through the Targaryen generations from king to king, that there is this threat north of Westeros, north of the wall. This icy, chilly death gloom that is coming to consume everything if we are not united together to fight against it. And this is a revelation. This is, you know, the books are incomplete. There are only five of the seven planned to _Song of Ice and Fire_ novels. This is not in there. Part of this for me, Richard, feels like George R.R. Martin being like, guys, I know I'm late. I know I'm so late. Let me just give you a thing. Here is the thing, it's gonna be in the book, it's here on the show. I don't know that it's gonna matter so much to, to _House of the Dragon_, but you need something. This is my version of an excerpt, because if I give you another chapter excerpt, you'll have just read half the book that's already completed, so, uh... Richard Lawson: Right. Josh Wigler: I, I liked that, but I think that this is going to be one that in the book community is gonna cause quite a stir. Richard Lawson: Yeah. I mean, because it is the most crucial part of that bit, that, um, part of the dream or the prophecy or whatever it was that a Targaryen has to be on the throne when this, you know, was that, was that, or am I kind of misunderstanding? Josh Wigler: I mean that feels to me like, um, you know, that's the way that the Targaryen are handling it. Uh, and I think speaks to the thematics of, you know, this sort of, um, the, the, the iron grip on the Iron Throne and like the, the, the, the fierce, fierce tightness with which these kings hold their power over the realm. You know, maybe a conversation with a couple of other people would do the trick and would, you know, some diplomacy here and some, you know, some of that would would do, but I think human nature as examined by these stories specifically, the stories set in Westeros, uh, the, the theory that's posited, I think, is so many horrible decisions are made in the pursuit of power at this level of peace between Targaryen and Stark and Lannister and whoever is just gonna be so hard to forge that piece even in the face of something as cataclysmic as the White Walkers. Maybe feels, you know, relevant to, to some certain themes and issues that are existing beyond the scope of this fictional fantasy series. So I don't think that it's, that the Targaryen have to be on the throne. It's that the, they are the keepers of this knowledge. And perhaps the thinking is, no, one's gonna believe us. No one is gonna buy into this prophecy, but we are, you know, coming from a lineage of, you know, the Targaryens only exist because one of the older Targaryens foresaw the doom of Valyria this, you know, great power seat that used to exist, um, you know, further east in the world of this show and was destroyed by unknown circumstances that are alluded to in this very episode. And they left there because of the dream of one of them. Uh, that, uh, someone foresaw the doom of Valyria about a decade before it happened. So there is this, you know, tradition within the Targaryen family of dreams possibly being prophetic and, and telling them really detailed information about the future. Viserys says this to his wife before she passes away in this episode that he's had this dream of his son sitting on the Iron Throne born with a crown, and it feels more real than a memory. So I think that the fierce protection of the dreams I think is part of why they're guarding the secret so much. But I think it does indicate to us at the very least the revelation of the _A Song of Ice and Fire_ of it all that the Targaryen lineage, if it remains intact, if the king or the queen, as it were, are in, um, possession of the Iron Throne, have a handle on Westeros and are armed with the readiness and the knowledge of this impending, um, you know, species wide catastrophe to be prepared for that maybe things will be okay. That maybe we'll be ready to meet the challenge once it arrives, and obviously _Game of Thrones_ bore out that they weren't quite ready for it. Richard Lawson: Right, yeah. I think it's also important, you know, for this first episode to acknowledge that like there is, I mean, aside from the dragons obviously, there is supernatural stuff in this world. You know, it might not be the primary focus of this show at the moment, you know? Um, but like, we need to be reminded that like, there are sort of mystical forces kind of coming to bear on, on these characters, um, and that not everything is up to just like I guess human choice or whatever, you know? And, um, even though so much of the show is- Josh Wigler: Looms large. Richard Lawson: Right, exactly. Josh Wigler: Yeah, yeah. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Um, so, you know, one thing about this episode that, um, I think is, is, you know, kind of the centerpiece, maybe the sort, sort of striking, uh, bit of action is this joust you know, that the king is having these games because, um, he's decided, well, I'm, I'm gonna have my male heir born, so let's, let's just plan the party ahead of time. Maybe it's a little premature, but we'll do it anyway. Um, what do you think are, are any big narrative takeaways from those like sequences during the joust? I mean, we, we meet one knight who maybe seems to have an eye out for, for Rhaenyra, but, um- Josh Wigler: The Dornishman. Uh, Ser Criston Cole. Yes. Richard Lawson: Uh, so what, what do we know about him? Josh Wigler: So he, so what we learn about him in this episode is that he is sort of this, this, this knight of, um, you know, a pretty small background comparatively to some of the people that you're seeing. You're seeing Baratheon's compete in this joust, um, you're seeing, I think someone from, uh, from House Arryn or at least someone from the Vale. Uh, Prince Daemon, uh, his, as we hear in this episode, he is married to someone from the Vale. He doesn't have the kindest things to say about the people of the Vale, um, but a lot of the royal parties from houses that we have heard of, or have met in _Game of Thrones_ are represented in this joust. And Cole is not a name that we, uh, that we recognize from _Game of Thrones_. So, Ser Criston, uh, Ser Criston Cole is somebody who is, you know, kind of rising from the background to even be at this joust. Uh, somebody who, uh, does not have much to, to, to bring in terms of family reputation. He's fought against the, uh, he's fought against Dorne. He was, uh, working on behalf of, uh, a descendant, uh, or an ancestor rather of Beric Dondarrion, uh, the Lightning Lord, who just would not stop dying on _Game of Thrones_ until he finally did. Richard Lawson: And coming back. Josh Wigler: Yeah. You know, who knows if any of that is gonna translate to Ser Criston here on this show. Um, but he's clearly, uh, you know, cutting a, quite a striking figure, both for Rhaenyra specifically, but I think he makes quite the impression here in, um, in King's Landing, in, uh, his prowess in the joust. The fact that he is able to defeat, uh, Prince Daemon in, uh, not just the, the jousting portion, but when it's single combat between the two of them. He could take this guy's life if he wanted to and he, he chooses not to. Um, and that is not a choice that everybody in the joust clearly makes based on the barbarity of people's faces getting caved in and such. Uh, it was pretty, pretty gross I thought. Yeah, so Criston is showing up and I think that he's, he's making quite an impression, uh, I think safe to say that this is a pretty important character, uh, for this specific narrative. Were you, were you taken in by him? Did you like Ser Criston Cole? Richard Lawson: Yeah. I mean, I, I thought I had a, some kind of overarching thoughts about all of those scenes where one of them was- I, I thought it was interesting. I think it's, uh, Rhaenys who basically says these boys have never been to war, they're they're too soft. They're just kind of playing at it at these games. And you did see some brutality in a way that I thought like, would that have been accepted? I mean, these are like the sons of like noble houses and then they are getting their faces caved in like? Josh Wigler: Right. Richard Lawson: I don't know it may, but maybe that was reflective of the fact that this is 170 plus years before, uh, when we, you know, kind of first entered Westeros with _Game of Thrones_ and maybe customs were a little bit more ragged and and brutal. Josh Wigler: Well, the first tournament that we saw on _Game of Thrones_ involved, uh, one of the three men who would play the mountain, uh, beheading a horse. So you know- Richard Lawson: Oh that's true. Yeah, okay fair enough. Josh Wigler: It was, it was pretty, it was pretty gruesome. Richard Lawson: Yeah, that is true. Josh Wigler: Even 200 years into the future from this point. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Um, but I, I, I thought that idea was so interesting, um, about like that this is peace time and these are, you know, there is a generation that, that Rhaenyra is part of that kind of can only imagine what it would be to be at war or to be, you know, so mortally threatened all the time. Um, and I think that's a really interesting place to put this show. I mean, that, that's kind of how _Game of Thrones_ started, where like the Baratheon reign was peaceful ish and then things of course, like very quickly went screwy. Josh Wigler: Right. Richard Lawson: Um, and I, I, I like that. I like the idea of that we're gonna watch this younger generation, um, kind of get hardened, uh, by, by the shifting political realities of, of where they are. Josh Wigler: Totally. Richard Lawson: And I think in, in, in, in Criston Cole's like, he seems a little bit more seasoned. He's had some opportunities to actually be in combat. Um, and I, I, I, so I can, I think, yeah, it, I like that they're kind of establishing him as like, you know, a bit ahead of his peers and, uh, including, um, Daemon who is a little bit older, but like, you know, the fact that he beats him in that combat, um, and, uh, you know, does the gentlemanly thing and says yield, you know? So I don't have to smash this mason to your face. Josh Wigler: Right, right. Richard Lawson: Establishes him as like- Josh Wigler: In front of your family no less. Richard Lawson: Yeah. It establishes him as like a more decent person than some of the other people we've met so far. Josh Wigler: Yeah, I think that he comes into this with, you know, he, um, this is, this is a guy who, who does not have a lot to his name other than, you know, uh, big John Proctor energy. My name! You know, he has that. He has who he is, he has who he is fundamentally. He believes himself decent and he believes himself, you know, aspiring to the ideals of a knight. And I, and I think you're right. I think a lot of that is probably... some of that is, is earned through experience. But I think in the case of most of these characters, as you're, as you're observing, this is peace time. This is on the, you know, this is 10 years after the death of a man who reigned over Westeros for gosh, you know, 50 something years. Um, you know, the, the king that we see at the very, very start of this show. So it is a very important point that is hanging over all of these proceedings is that while there have obviously there have been conflicts and there has been violence and there have been, you know, you know, many wars that have broken out across, uh, Westeros and beyond in the most, uh, you know, in the most recent past, it has not been as brutal as the Conquest of the Seven Kingdoms. It certainly hasn't been as brutal as, um, the, the immediate period following the Death of a Aegon the Conqueror. Uh, there's uh, mention of Maegor, uh, Maegor the Cruel in this episode. That Daemon is going to be another Maegor the Cruel, who was one of the previous kings. I believe the third king of Westeros, and that dude sucked. He was a bad guy. He was a pretty violent guy. And so Daemon being compared to him is, uh, pretty terrifying. But even that person is something of a distant memory. And I think that the, you know, there there's, there's a lot to draw from that. One is that the people here in Westeros now should be, you know, a little calmer, a little chiller than, uh, than, than what we, what we would expect from people during war time. And yet I think that there is also, there's like some, there's something of a buzzing underneath all of this. There's a little bit of an energy that is humming beneath this entire show right now of people who are ready to grab power and hold onto it tightly should they get any. Uh, and I think that that emerging from a period of time where people are not particularly used to, uh, what that would entail and the fallout of that and what that would really look like. It's one thing to sort of theoretically imagine what the violence of your choices might yield. Uh, and it's a totally different thing to see it actually spill out onto the streets of King's Landing. And we see it in this tournament of, I think people playing at war. Uh, as, uh, as "The Queen Who, Who Never Was" alludes to. Uh, then to see it actually happen as may happen on this specific show, I think is gonna be a totally different thing altogether. Richard Lawson: Yeah. I mean, you get a sense between, you know, these young men kind of getting a little overzealous on the, on the jousting pitch, um, and then also that the fact that King's Landing, it said multiple times, has kind of fallen into a bit of, you know, lawlessness and chaos, or at least that's how Daemon sees it and other, you know- Josh Wigler: The way that, the way that Daemon sees it results in this horrific raid that happens. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Josh Wigler: You know, a quarter of the way into the episode. And I was really curious to get your take on this, Richard, this is a really violent sequence when you see the gold cloaks are going through King's Landing and people are being, uh, dismembered, uh, mutilated. There's the castration, there's the beheading, it's really, really violent. How far a field was this for you from _Game of Thrones_? Was it different in terms of content for you in terms of _Game of Thrones_? Was it different for you in terms of where we are watching this now? I just, I was, I was really curious to know how the, how the violence sat with you, uh, if it felt particularly gratuitous or if it just kind of felt like another day in Westeros. Richard Lawson: I mean, I kind of think the gratuity was the point because it was like, you know, it's the show being like we're back. You know, like- Josh Wigler: Right. Richard Lawson: Remember all this stuff, but we're gonna do it more. And, um, I kind of get that from almost a marketing perspective I, I guess you could say. Like, they just want to sort of start with, um, you know, a bang or several and, um, and so it works for me. And I think also you could look at that, you know, um, City Watch raid, um, as maybe some political commentary relevant to America today, you know, in terms of like, you know, uh, sort of extra violent, extra militant police forces, Josh Wigler: Right. Richard Lawson: And, and law and order kind of rhetoric from certain politicians. And, and I, I think that they were, they were showing that even within the, this, you know, kind of brutal world of Westeros um, in a sort of medieval-esque times that there was there, there was some sort of squeamishness about that kind of thing. I mean, you know, the, the King's council is basically like, that was way too much. Like you went, he went way too far. You know, so they have standards, you know, and, but they're very tenuous and there are people already in this episode who are willing to, to, to stretch those standards, to break them entirely. Um, and it just goes further to show like how tenuous all of this is. You know, that, that, that the, the, the crown can, has to pass in just such a way or, or, you know, or else the whole kingdom will fall into disarray. And, and, uh, I like that that violence is being used on this episode as like the sign of something verbaling up to the surface, that something is changing. You know, um, and things are gonna start to fall apart. Um, so I think it's well, uh, you know, employed in that way because, um, we need to feel that we're jumping in, in this particular time for a reason, you know? That there is something inciting happening. Yes, it's the death of the queen and the death of the son but, um, there's also just other agitators and one of them just happens to be the King's brother, right? Josh Wigler: Right, right. He's quite the agitator. He's very agitated. Uh, so I, I, I mean, I'm not the squeamish type. Uh, I, you know, my, Richard, my origin story, my pop culture origin story is my parents foolishly let me see _Terminator 2: Judgment Day_ in theaters when I was a seven year old and so everything spun out from there. Uh, it's a really bad choice, uh, on their part that led to some fun choices for me. Uh, so I'm, I'm pretty, uh, you know, pretty hardened to onscreen violence at this point in time. And even, even some of the stuff that was happening in this episode, I did feel myself just like my stomach tightening, uh, watching, watching this sequence, watching a lot of the joust, um, the, the death of the, of the King's wife. And just, man, the brutality of that choice not belonging to her, uh, and Viserys being next to her and, and lying to her and as, as it's dawning on her what's about to happen and the fear. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Josh Wigler: And the, you know, forget the visuals. I think the, the, the sound design of, of that sequence was really haunting. And I have not let go of that, uh, since, since watching it. And I, I think that it's really effective. And I think that you drive, uh, home a really strong point about why it's needed in this show, uh, that it's, you know, it is, it is demonstrating the need for this story to be told if we're, if we're picking back up in, in Westeros that this is a time of change and that these are, these are moments that are, um, that are, are covered in this level of brutality to, to, uh, you know, to pass something on to, to us to make us feel the way, you know, the, the hardened stomach I think is absolutely the point and yet I am, I am really curious to start asking around the people that I know are not huge, huge _Game of Thrones_ people, but liked the show well enough and are interested in checking it back out, even if they were burned by the end of the show. I don't know that the content is all that different from _Game of Thrones,_ but I do wonder if we've just been through enough, you know? We've just been through so much in these last couple of years, certainly specifically, that is the, do I need this on my Sunday night? Is this what I need to solve my Sunday scaries before I have to go back to the office that is compelling me to come back to work? Um, so I don't know. Uh, and I'm, I'm really curious to, to get the vibe from people having watched this episode. Richard Lawson: Yeah, I remember, you know, I think it was like around 2016, I... every Monday I would wake up like really kind of having slept terribly in nightmares, and I was like, oh, it's because you're watching the _Walking Dead_ every Sunday night and you need to stop doing that. Josh Wigler: Wow. So it, so it's you and me keeping that thing alive, huh? Richard Lawson: Yeah. Uh, well, I have, I've kind of I've, I've drifted away from that show since, but like, but yeah, I think that's a good question is like, is this kind of the show that we want or need right now? Um, and I don't know. I, I think that they do manage to, at least in this episode, I think, balance that stuff with more thoughtful moments and, and, and kind of more quieter character moments. So it's, it's not so unrelenting as it was on the _Walking Dead_, for example. Um, but, uh, yeah, I, I think, I think, I think especially we're, we're gonna have to be cognizant, uh, as we talk about this show going forward and thinking about it is that this show, I think differently than _Game of Thrones_ in a sort of significant intentional way, is about women in this world. Josh Wigler: Yes. Richard Lawson: And, and about how they're treated and mistreated and, and, you know, in this kind of diagnostic power struggle, how they are very, um, important parts of that because of marriage and childbirth and all that. But that's a very passive thing that they're sort of forced into, you know? And, um, and I think that the way violence and other brutality is visited upon women in this show, um, is something that the show is clearly, um, thinking about. And I think, you know, we should too. And, and, and because that could step a line. I mean you already have in this episode, um, Otto Hightower, the hand of the king sending his daughter who I think is supposed to be maybe 15, 16 to the king. Josh Wigler: She's young. Yeah. I think right around there Richard Lawson: Who's in his fifties maybe? You know, and um, we don't really know what's gonna become of that. Maybe nothing will, but um, it- that's pretty out there in terms of, of content. And I, and I also think- am I, did you, was there something happening between Rhaenyra and her uncle beyond just a, Hey, good to see you? Josh Wigler: Well, so that's hard for me to weigh in on Richard because I- Richard Lawson: Oh, you know, things. That's right. Josh Wigler: I don't want to spoil anything for anybody, but what I'll remind the, the folks back home about of course is Jaime and Cersei Lannister were a thing. They were twins and they were lovers. They were the parents of three children together. Uh, and, uh, they would often justify that as this is taking from the great Targaryen tradition that the Targaryens married each other, that they wed each other, that they vetted each other. Uh, and so that was all theoretical back on the show. And you were really dealing with that specific issue through the Lannisters, who at least at the start, you're really being trained to distrust, if not all the way dislike. So how that's gonna carry over in the show that has however many Targaryens this one has. Um, I don't think that you're wrong to be picking up on some vibes. Richard Lawson: Yeah. I mean, you know, I think this is a, a, a piece of IP that is singular in that they're like, yeah, we're gonna do some incest stuff, you know? Josh Wigler: Yeah. Richard Lawson: Like they, they don't, they don't, they didn't shy away from it, uh, in the original, so I, I don't, I can't imagine that it will at least not be, it'll be something of a topic at some point because yeah, the, the Targaryens are kind of famous for it. Um, but I think that is definitely, given how, I mean, I, I think Milly Alcock, the actor, is in her early twenties. Josh Wigler: Yes, she is. Richard Lawson: But she looks very young and, and as does Emily Carey who plays the Lady Alicent, um, thus far. She'll be, um, swapped out for Olivia Cooke at some point down the road. Josh Wigler: I just learned today that she was the Young Wonder Woman in, uh, in the _Wonder Woman_ movie. Richard Lawson: Oh, okay. Yeah. Josh Wigler: That's some cool street cred to bring to the table. Richard Lawson: And whether or not it's credible to a medieval world that, you know, obviously inspired Westeros that, that, you know, brides would be this young and, um, sort of put into that role, uh, well, before what we kind of conventionally think of as like an appropriate age, that might be realistic in some sense, but is that in 2022, um, something that can or should be depicted on television? I don't know. Josh Wigler: Right. Richard Lawson: I think that probably... the violence is one thing, but like that sort of the, the sexual danger and compromise of, uh, that that's, that's already sort of being alluded to in this, you know, first episode that I think is where the think pieces might kind of spin off from. Josh Wigler: Yeah. And I don't think that it's unfair. Uh, I think that, I think it's a really worthy topic to explore and I think that this show by necessity based on the story design, uh, based on the history that spins out from all of this, is going to have to go there to a certain extent. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Josh Wigler: And the question for me is will they go there thoughtfully? Uh, will they go there in a way that is, um, you know, if, if it's, if it's horrific to watch, is it done with care? Is it done with intentionality? Um, and I think that these are, these are X factors. I don't know that this was always the most delicately broached subject matter on _Game of Thrones_, for example. That being said while George R.R. Martin is a constant between the two stories, he was not terribly involved in the later days of _Game of Thrones_, certainly, but beyond that, the people who are making this show, it is, it is a bigger team of people, of, of creative minds and producers and writers, um, than I think, uh, you know, there was a, there was a real, I think... certainly David Benioff and Dan Weiss get a lot of both the credit and the blame for where _Game of Thrones_ ends up and just _Game of Thrones's_ totality. And in this case, Ryan Condal is showrunner and co-creator with Martin, Miguel Sapochnik showrunner as well. But there's so many other names, Sara Hess and beyond, uh, that are involved in this that I feel like there is something more of, um, you know, there, there is a, a larger small council, uh, behind the scenes- Richard Lawson: Right. Josh Wigler: Is, is sort of the feeling that I'm getting from _House of the Dragon _just in the preliminary research and what we're seeing on screen in this episode that makes me feel ready to, um, confront these challenging topics on the show, but holding my breath a little bit for sure. Uh, and I'm, I'm really curious to see what other people have to think about all of it. Richard Lawson: Yeah. And actually this is a good time to mention, um, we really would love to hear from people listening to this, uh, you can email us at stillwatchingpod@gmail.com, comments, questions, rebuttals to anything we've said, uh, we welcome at all. Um, and we'll try to kind of keep up with that in real time. So Josh, before we go, um, I, is there anyone we haven't really talked about or anything- I mean, we haven't really talked much about Hightower beyond what he does with his daughter. Like is there a character we, we've, we've omitted. I mean, you know, uh, Daemon has this lady friend Mysaria. Josh Wigler: Yes. Uh, played by, uh, Sonoya Mizuno. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Josh Wigler: Who I loved and _Devs,_ uh, just so, so good on that show. Uh, so she's, she's here, she's, you know, kind of a, a smaller role in this episode. Um, but, uh, she, she may have a bigger role to play moving forward. I'm, I'm curious to see how she's represented on the show. We didn't get a ton of the Sea Snake, uh, Lord Corlys who's played by Steve Toussaint. He is the, he's the character who seems to really be like why are we talking about a new heir? Your heir is your brother. Why are we fighting this? Richard Lawson: Yeah. Josh Wigler: Um, so I'm curious to see a little bit more about him. He is one of the, the potential subjects for a spinoff series, uh, from, from this show that there is a, there is a Sea Snake show that has been, uh, been in development for a little while, whether or not it moves forward at all, uh, I think is, is another question, but I don't think that the episode really gave us a ton with him. There was a lot of just, you know, introductory stuff. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Josh Wigler: In this episode, uh, like very quick meet and greets with a bunch of these characters. There's a good moment with Corlys and his wife, who is the Queen Who Never Was, Rhaenys, I think that the two of them, if the show can get deeper into those characters, they're gonna emerge I think as fan favorites. I think that people will really like their dynamic together. Um, so I'm really hopeful that they're gonna explore that a bit more. I think a huge omission is we haven't talked a ton about the dragons and, you know, it is sort of a big deal. This is the House of the, of the Dragon, uh, and in addition to the fact that you were right Richard of, uh, how quickly we would see a dragon in this show. Were you impressed by the dragon? Did you feel any different dragon energy here in this show versus _Game of Thrones_? Richard Lawson: I think the energy is different, and I think it's because we're in a timeline or, or, or an era where they're, they're more common. You know, the, the, the, the majesty and the sort of shock of, of the dragons on the original series was that no one had seen one of these things in anyone's lifetime, you know? And, and, and so now they're a little more common place, so they have lost a bit of their, you know, the element of surprise or the sort of grandeur. Um, but I, I, I think they obviously come that they, they matter a great deal, um, both as the sort of symbols of this, this family, but also like that changes how warfare works like significantly. We saw that, uh, play out on _Game of Thrones_ that once dragons were involved, it was a whole different ballgame. And, um, so I'll be, I'll be curious to see how they're they're used throughout. I mean, obviously they're great imagery. They can... HBO can market things with dragon imagery on it, with the sounds of the dragons, whatever, but like in the story itself, um, they're a significant part of, of, of how this family holds power and- Josh Wigler: Right. Richard Lawson: Um, I, I guess a question I had for you about the dragons is do we have a sense of how many there are at this point? Josh Wigler: I don't know that we do based on the show specifically. If there was a number given in this, uh, episode, I missed it. But the, but the big number that is circulating the interwebs is, uh, one loss number plus one. 17 dragons is the, uh, dreaded number of dragons that exist during this period of the show. I don't know if that's accounting for dragons that are yet to be born. Again, this is a bit of a generational tale, but it's a lot of dragons. It's a big amount of dragons, certainly compared to Daenerys's three. Richard Lawson: Yeah. So which, which means like, you know, they both have more power and less into some weird way because, um, you know, they seem to be shared by, you know, like Daemon has his own dragon, you know? Josh Wigler: Right. Richard Lawson: And that's like a major thing, because he clearly is, uh, gunning for that throne. I mean, that's evident in this episode, um, and if he has that power behind him, um, that changes things then if he didn't, obviously. Josh Wigler: Totally and I think, uh, another thing that's worth observing is that final scene between Viserys and Rhaenyra in the bowels of the Red Keep, uh, right beside, um, Balerion, the Black Dread, that is the, the drag that Aegon the Conquer rode into Westeros on, uh, and is, uh, no longer alive, obviously, as evidenced by the skull. Uh, but that was the dragon that Viserys himself, uh, once rode. I think he, he was, uh, he rode, uh, this dragon for the last year of its life. So he was a Balerion's final dragon rider, so that, that signifies something of a, of a passing of an era. But, uh, there is also the existence, and you, you hear the name checked in this episode, Vhagar is the name of another dragon, um, that is associated with Aegon the Conqueror, uh, and, uh, it is associated with Visenya Targaryen who is one of Aegon the Conqueror's sister wives, who is a particularly brutal person. This moment where, uh, Viserys and his wife are talking about how Rhaenyra thinks that, uh, that she's gonna have a sister instead of a brother, and she's already picked out a name Visenya, Viserys says, well, we already have of Visenya. He's alluding to Daemon in that Daemon is sort of the more dangerous Targaryen, that he is somebody who is a little bit more war minded and a little bit more brutal. So Vhagar is mentioned and Vhagar is still out there. One of the original dragons that was part of the conquest of Westeros still exists, still lives during this time in the show. I think that's worth pointing out, not just because maybe that dragons could be kind of important to some of the things that will happen as the show moves forward, but also to really locate us in proximity to this time in Westeros. Yeah it's a time of huge transformation, but there is still this very critical link to the past uh, to the formation of the seven kingdoms, um, that we are, you know, a hundred, some odd years into the reign of the Targaryens and yet there is still a flesh and blood fire breathing bastion of the old conquest that still exists in this world. So it is a kind of bridging of the eras that, uh, that is happening off screen that may happen on screen at some point in time this season. Richard Lawson: Well, we'll have to wait and see. Um, uh, in the meantime, yeah, please again, uh, email us at stillwatchingpod@gmail.com any thoughts, questions, whatever, uh, we welcome it. Um, you can follow us on Twitter, Josh, what are, what's your handle there? Josh Wigler: You can follow me @roundhoward. Richard Lawson: And I'm @rilaws. Um, and yeah, so until next week, you know, we'd love to hear from you and thank you for listening. Uh, _Still Watching _is edited and produced by Dave Gonzales, uh, and we'll talk to you next week.