Josh Wigler: Hello, and welcome back to _Still Watching: House of the Dragon_, the weekly podcast from _Vanity Fair._ I'm Josh Wigler and I'm joined by Richard Lawson and we are but two of the 10 million people currently watching _House of the Dragon_. Richard, how you doing? Richard Lawson: I'm good. I mean, that was a massive premiere. Did you see that um, that video of, uh, someone took outside of a New York City apartment where like every TV and every window was playing the premiere episode. Josh Wigler: Absolutely ridiculous. Uh, yeah, completely, completely insane. I'm I'm old enough to remember when we were talking about the death of the water cooler episode, uh, when _Game of Thrones_ was wrapping up a few years ago. Much like Jon Snow, Richard, the water cooler episode is alive again. Richard Lawson: The water cooler isn't. Everyone's working from home. Josh Wigler: Where did that go? Yeah, I'm thirsty. I could really use a water cooler right now. Uh, but clearly people are watching this show. Uh, I think people have a lot of big thoughts and feelings about the show. I'm really interested in finding out what the viewership looks like for episode two. Obviously we are recording this at a point where we do not know the answer to that question, but I'm gonna be very, very interested in seeing how many people stick around, how much was the violence of the premiere and some of the tone of the premiere going to push people away. Uh, but at least for now, Richard, it seems like, uh, a pretty, pretty huge hit for HBO. Richard Lawson: Yeah, I think we chose the right show to cover. Josh Wigler: Uhhuh. Yeah. Richard Lawson: You know, for the summer. Josh Wigler: It was a gamble though, you know, uh, we had a lot of things that we could have picked. It could have been, uh, Westeros or _Westworld_ and I think we chose wisely, ultimately. Richard Lawson: I think so, yeah. Josh Wigler: Uh, so much to discuss with this one episode two of _House of the Dragon_, "The Rogue Prince" we're gonna recap it. We're gonna go through it scene by scene. Of course we want to hear from you out there in listener land. We would love to get some feedback from you for this podcast. You can write in stillwatchingpod@gmail.com is our feedback line, stillwatchingpod@gmail.com. Richard, before we get into this one specifically, for a second episode of _House of the Dragon_, how did you feel this one measured up? Did you feel like it was living up to the promise of the first episode? Did you feel like it was advancing the ball in a way that was keeping your curiosity? Richard Lawson: Yeah, because I think, you know, obviously the big turn of the first episode is we have Rhaenyra named the heir to, uh, Viserys and that's kind of establishing what this, at least this season, or maybe the whole show is gonna be about. And then episode two, I think very smartly jumps right into what that would actually look like and reminds us that while an heir has been declared and people have bent the knee, that does not mean that this issue is settled. So I think that, um, whereas the first episode was setting the table, now we're starting to move plates and stuff around and seeing how they interact with each other. Josh Wigler: I think it's interesting that the, that the, the, the matter is not settled. Uh, not just because, uh, there are people with conflicting, uh, feelings about who should be on the throne, and Prince Daemon certainly seems like he's not done messing around at this point, but there's everything that's going on with Viserys as well, which is gonna dominate a ton of this episode. This question of it's been about half a year since the events of the premiere. So half a year since, uh, the death of his wife and child, and he is being, um, you know pretty, pretty significantly pushed in the direction of remarrying. And he's gonna make a big choice by the end of this episode, that there's the world in which he joins houses with Lord Corlys the, the Sea Snake, uh, two Velaryon powerhouse joined as one. And despite the fact that many people in his small council are going to push him in that direction, he's gonna go in a completely different way. And I think that the, uh, the choice to go, uh, and propose marriage to Lady Alicent clearly ruffling some feathers by the end of this episode. So a lot of drama here, not just for the Iron Throne, but within the throne room. Richard Lawson: Yeah. And as ever, you know, in this world and what George R. R. Martin has built, I love how it's a show so much about causality and like how seemingly like the king, the widowed king marries someone and that is gonna change the face of Westeros history. You know, and it's really cool being in the rooms because a lot of times in, in the original _Game of Thrones_, that was kind of history, you know? Josh Wigler: Yeah. Richard Lawson: It was referred to how the Baratheon's got into power and how this all happened. And so here we're seeing, um, that groundwork being laid, um, you know, choice by choice and I think that's really interesting. Josh Wigler: So we begin this episode, Richard, second episode in a row where we are starting outside of King's Landing. We are starting in the Stepstones, uh, which is an island chain, uh, south of Westeros, very important for the shipping lanes, uh, that, uh, certainly the master of ships himself, the Sea Snake is very concerned with. And once again, _Game of Thrones_ gonna _Game of Thrones_, and we're gonna get some very gross visceral images of men beating a lot, being eaten alive by crabs. I dunno if you had this on your bingo card coming into episode two of _House of the Dragon._ Richard Lawson: I just, I'm amazed that this franchise can come up with new ways to show brutality and horrible things. Josh Wigler: You know, this was original. Richard Lawson: I, I'm imagining them looking at their big, like corkboard and being like, have we done crabs yet? Josh Wigler: Haven't yet done crabs... Uh, so we are seeing that there is a lot of violence that is happening, uh, not terribly far away from King's Landing. But when we go to King's Landing, it doesn't seem to be terribly high on Viserys Targaryen's to-do list. Uh, the Sea Snake especially is pretty annoyed with this. What we're getting into right now is the idea that the free cities are potentially funding these sort of acts of terrorism in the Stepstones that are, uh, terrorizing the various people who are trying to transport goods to and from Westeros, and this is a very big deal for the Sea Snake, where Viserys Targaryen and House Targaryen, they have dragons. Lord Corlys has the fleet. Uh, this is what's important to him and to his house, and this is being shut down and this is just getting very close to being the final dis, uh, that the Sea Snake can tolerate at this point in time. Richard Lawson: Yeah. And it's an interesting profile of Viserys as a leader where, you know, he's been reigning over relative peace time. We see that later manifested when they're trying to find a new member of the King's Guard, and the problem is a lot of them haven't been in combat. Josh Wigler: Right. Richard Lawson: Um, and that was referenced last week too. And you know, it's a fine line between he's a good king because it's been peaceful, and he's ineffectual because he hasn't risen to meet certain challenges or, you know, violent situations, um, which we see here, you know, is leading to a lot of consternation among the people directly beneath him who are like, can you please do something about this? Josh Wigler: Yeah. Somebody do something. Uh, and it is going to actually be Rhaenyra, uh, newly named heir to the Iron Throne who is still acting in the role of cup bearer here at the small council. Who is here in the room and perhaps emboldened by her, her new status in Westeros is going to chime in with an idea of what to do about this situation. She says, send us, and by us, she means the dragon riders. She wants to, you know, have this big show of force that's going to make it clear that we are not to be trifled with. This should not be a thing that you are considering messing with the Targaryens. Yet, this kind of falls flat in the room. Um, Rhaenyra is gonna hold onto this idea of like, maybe I should just dragon ride my way into a conflict at some point, but no one in the room really wants to be either hearing this idea or maybe, Richard, it specifically, they don't wanna be hearing this from Rhaenyra. Richard Lawson: Yeah, I, I think it's more the latter. Um, and we look, we've seen this kind of trope played out in many things where the, the child of the warrior noble person wants to kind of act- emulate the parent. You know, I wanna go to battle too. I want to, you know, rob a bank too or whatever it is, and the parent really doesn't want that. And you have to question as Rhaenys does later in the episode is that because, uh, Rhaenyra is too young or whatever, or is it because she's a woman? And I think that obviously the attention around her gender is starting to mount now that people actually have to look at her as a potential ruler. Um, and maybe there's a thought, like we don't want you riding dragons around cause you could get killed and throw this all back, all into chaos. Josh Wigler: Right. Uh, so Rhaenyra instead is going to be tasked with something else. Here's some busy work Rhaenyra, how about you choose a member of the King's Guard. We have a new knight of, we have a vacancy on the King's Guard, so we have to have a new knight joining the squad. Rhaenyra is going to be given the, uh, the position of hiring this person. Uh, and I don't know about you, but the moment that she is given the choice, this is pretty clear who the job is going to. This is gonna be a Criston Cole landslide. Richard Lawson: I mean, she's a teenager, he's the handsomest boy in the room. You know, I don't blame her. But, you know, I think it's interesting that we see the Sea Snake kind of dismissed this, this little bit of protocol or process as like, uh, just stupid courtly matters when we know we're having watched _Game of Thrones_, that the Kings Guard is an important function and, you know, Jaime Lannister was on it. And, um, you know, I, I, so I think that these scenes where there's this tension between trying to just do the, the regular business of the court and, and, and striking out is showing a real tension between like how people view how this throne is supposed to, to govern. Josh Wigler: She ends up making the choice, she's gonna go with Criston Cole and the premiere really establishes that Rhaenyra, uh, has definitely has eyes for, for Ser Criston. But I think that she's also going to push back against people who are resistant to this idea, when she's saying none of these people, this, this one person caught a poacher. Okay, cool. Uh, you know, Criston Cole has combat experience. These people are gonna be guarding my father. They're gonna be guarding the throne, shouldn't they know how to, how to handle themselves in combat? So I think it's, it's pretty easy to say that this is just like, you know, sort of a love struck decision that she makes, but it also feels like she's making a practical tactical call as well of like, this is the person in the room, I don't care if he's a political ally or not, he's somebody that's actually going to be able to do this job. This shouldn't be a ceremonial position. So you're kind of getting Rhaenyra's first real major command decision here in, uh, enlisting Criston to the King's Guard. Richard Lawson: Yeah, you can be, have a crush and be rational at the same time, it's possible. Josh Wigler: Two things are true, uh, true at once. Um, so let's go back with Viserys and he is still having these sort of secret conversations with Lady Alicent. Uh, they are in his chambers standing over this model replica of old Valyria uh, where the Targaryens descend from long ago, consumed by a mysterious doom. Do you think that this show is going to tell us what happened with the doom of Valyria, Richard, or are they gonna save that for like the 10th spinoff that they do? Richard Lawson: I kind of wonder because that was always one of the reading, the original, you know, _Song of Ice and Fire_ books, they would allude to that a lot and I liked that it was kind of this mystery. Was it an earthquake? Was it dragons? Was it- who knows something else, supernatural? Um, I, I like that it was sort of ambiguous, but I think that given how tightly connected the, the main characters in this, in this particular show are to that legacy. We might have to get a little more specific explication of what they're talking about. Josh Wigler: I think I'm happy if we get the doom of Valyria here in _House of the Dragon._ I feel like this being a subject of its own successor show, it feels tempting. I just don't know that there is a ton of history there to draw from George R. R.. Martin has left it deliberately pretty vague, uh, for probably a big future reveal in _A Song of Ice and Fire_ should he ever get the chance to complete. With that being said, the fact that the _A Song of Ice and Fire_ prophecy was laid out at the end of the _House of the Dragon_ premiere, it does make me wonder how much this specific show is going to be a vehicle for these big Targaryen reveals and if that's the case, I feel like it's existence here in this scene and throughout this episode, the idea of this replica city of Valyria uh, and Viserys's obsession with it, is this indicating that this is gonna be something that is explored at least metaphorically, I think it works really to underscore what's happening in this moment. Viserys is being pushed towards marriage. He's going to be pushed in the direction of Lord Corlys's family and clearly something else is developing here in terms of his feelings for Lady Alicent. Perhaps a doom of his own making happening right now. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Maybe any civilization ruled by Targaryens is gonna have its kind of some kind of doom befall it. I have a question because I know that you, you know, you've read the book that this show is based on. Um, and it's my understanding that Alicent in that book is supposed to be a good, maybe decade older. Josh Wigler: She's about 10 years older than, than Rhaenyra. Richard Lawson: Yeah, but here they're being more pitched as the same age and I, my question is what is that age? Because there's a lot of talk about Viserys not wanting to marry a literal child, which is gross. But Alicent doesn't seem that much older? Josh Wigler: So there's a line in this scene where, uh, where Alicent and Viserys are talking about, um, the fact that Rhaenyra isn't speaking much to the king anymore, right. That things have been very fraught in the aftermath of the death of her mother, uh, as they ought to be. Um, and, uh, she's basically, Alicent is pitching Viserys on why don't you go and talk to her? What if you go and talk to Rhaenyra, why don't you start the conversation? He says, there are times where I would rather face the black dread himself than my own daughter of 15. So, uh, if we are thinking that Alicent and Rhaenyra are the same age, that places Alicent at 15 years old and that is, um, that's tough. That's very tough for me, Richard, I have to say. Richard Lawson: Yeah. And I think it's gonna continue to be tough as the show goes on. Um, just because, uh, you know, these actresses, we don't, I don't really know how long these younger versions of these characters are gonna be on the show, but it doesn't seem like they're going away anytime soon and now that they're being well, at least in one case, kind of coupled off with a much older person, I'm just kind of... that, that's a fan reaction or a viewer reaction that I'm kind of anticipating more than the violence. Josh Wigler: I agree, and I think that, um, I think it's really worth planting the flag here that this idea, certainly by the end of the episode, it's clear Viserys's intentions for the future of his relationship with Lady Alicent, that he would have her be the queen, uh, that this is going to be the direction that he chooses to go in. I think that these ideas of, um, uh, these power dynamics, we've been talking about this on the podcast as well, Richard, about this show being, uh, putting the, the patriarchy very, very front and center here in the narrative of Westeros. I think some of these ideas of, of grooming being front and center on the show, we saw this a bit last week and we see it again this week with Otto and his relationship towards Alicent. This is really, really icky territory and really tough subject matter that unfortunately is going to be very central to the narrative. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Josh Wigler: Uh, even as these characters are aging up, this is very integral, uh, you know, to, to the story that's, that's moving forward. So I feel like this happening in episode two, again, sort of like what was happening in episode one, maybe instructive as far as what you wanna be doing with your Sunday nights. Uh, this is gonna be front and center in, in the show. Richard Lawson: And look, if you assess the Alicent Viserys thing, like in the vacuum of the show, there is something I, I think you could see that's a little bit sweet about the fact that he is choosing love and I think Alicent clearly has, I don't know if it's just political ambition infused in her from her father or whatever, but like, there seems to be a genuine connection there where, when we see this awkward scene with Corlys's very young daughter and Viserys it's like, that would only be a marriage of political convenience and nothing else. And maybe in the short term, it's nice that the heart wins out, but like, obviously given that this is a _Game of Thrones_ show, that's this choice is probably gonna lead to disastrous end. Josh Wigler: Yeah. Very, fairly likely. Uh, so we're gonna, we're gonna see the conversation continue with Alicent and Rhaenyra. Uh, so these conversations that Alicent is having with Viserys, this is not, uh, this is not on Rhaenyra's radar at all. Uh, and so Alicent is sort of in this really tricky situation where her father has pushed her into having this, uh, this companionship with Viserys. Viserys himself, uh, is saying you don't mention our talks to Rhaenyra, do you? I, I kind of worry she wouldn't understand them. The secrecy surrounding all of this feels like yet another way in which this situation is kind of bubbling towards disaster. Richard Lawson: Yeah. He, i, I don't, I don't, sometimes I would rather do, you know, the worst thing imaginable than talk to my 15 year old daughter. Josh Wigler: Right. Richard Lawson: Well, in this case, like not talking to her about these developments is gonna make it all the more you know, all the worst. Josh Wigler: Yeah. Richard Lawson: And, and, um, you know, we see toward the end of the episode, when she, when Rhaenyra storms away, it's like, that's a huge betrayal on from both sides, father and friend, and, and maybe it would've been softened some if she'd been aware that this was happening. Josh Wigler: A heads up, right? Richard Lawson: Yeah. Josh Wigler: You know, some notice maybe would've, would've been helpful. Richard Lawson: Hey, I'm dating your dad maybe? Josh Wigler: Yeah. That probably would've been great. Or, Hey, I'm trying to date your best friend also probably wouldn't hurt. Yeah. Can we just talk that through? Uh, you know, this is something that, uh, your friend in mind, the great, uh, Katey Rich here at _Vanity Fair_ had talk to us about in between podcasts, this idea of, uh, the first episode of this show with Viserys maybe delivering a character flaw that he can't quite recover from. Uh, Katey had said that it's not the same as Ned Stark cutting off the deserter's head in the pilot. He made what felt like the right decision. Uh Viserys did, but did it in a cruel way. And even though I feel like I can trust him as a ruler, he doesn't feel like a character I can truly root for going forward. Am I reading this wrong or the ramifications of that horrible birth scene going to continue throughout the series? I think one way, uh, this is me, now. I think one way, Richard, that this is continuing in this episode, you're continuing to see Viserys make, I think really, uh, controversial decisions. I think that obviously there's, there's a lot baked in to just the choice to, to marry a 15 year old in the first place. But I think that the, the choice to keep this a secret from Rhaenyra, to blindside her with the news at the end of this episode, alongside the rest of the small council, I think to, to, you know, expand on Katey's point, I think it should give you some questions about Viserys, not just in terms of his character, but in terms of his, uh, his leadership decisions in terms of his capacity as the ruler of Westeros. Richard Lawson: Yeah. I mean, I think that the psychology that we see in Viserys thus far, you know, from this horrible decision made in the first episode, which, you know, could have been necessary. You know, someone, you know, to save one, the other had to die, like, but there's gonna be a ton of guilt and concern on his part about like, did I make the right decision? Was it all for not? The baby ended up dying, you know, did I just kind of murder my wife to, you know, to sort of protect, enshrine my legacy and, and trying to build both a tone for that make up for it and also maneuver politically to not make that blunder or horrible decision, um, you know, have too many ripple effects. Um, I don't think that, you know, given that we've also seen him earlier with the Sea Snake kind of framed as this ineffectual leader, I, I don't know that Viserys is gonna make the right choices or, or make them in the right way. Josh Wigler: Yeah. Uh, I think that he's been a fascinating character for me to watch, Richard. Viserys, isn't maybe the most, you know, blockbuster notable king in the Targaryens lineage. He has a big, uh, you know, big shoes to fill out with Jaehaerys the Wise who we saw at the very start of the show who had such a long reign and it was such a peaceful reign, and he's such a notable figure within _Fire and Blood_. And Viserys is really important, uh, and has a lot to, to, to do with the rest of this story. Uh, it has a lot of impact on what's gonna, what's gonna come next and has a really good central role in it, but I think maybe a little thinly drawn in, uh, a book that itself already is fairly thin thinly drawn by, by the nature of it being a historical text. Um, but I think that Paddy Considine is, is doing a lot to let you buy into the humanity of the character. And I mean that in like both senses of, you know, there are times where you're feeling for him, but I think that there are a lot of times where you're either repulsed by him or at least you, you can really smell the, the cowardice of some of his decisions, some of the desperation around him as well. I think he's a fascinating character. Yeah. Uh, I don't think that he is necessarily a super root worthy character, but I think he's a really interesting one so far. Richard Lawson: He is and as we saw in the first episode, like there's some sort of ailment. You know, he has some wound that won't heal. Um, so we can kind of assume that his tenure on the throne or on earth is, is ending, you know? Um, and I'm just kind of curious from a narrative perspective of when this is really gonna become Rhaenyra and other people's story and not sort of them reacting to Viserys. Like when will Viserys kind of fade away and these other characters will take the fore. I don't know when that's gonna happen, but clearly that's something that's being set up. And so he's kind of in his twilight if you wanna make, I assume that that disease was referenced, you know, for a reason. Josh Wigler: Yeah. Um, so we are going to see Viserys go for a little bit of a walk with Corlys and his favorite cousin, Rhaenys, the, The Queen Who Never Was, and they are going to pitch, uh, Viserys on marrying their daughter, uh, join our houses, uh, we both have the blood of the dragon coercing through our veins. You've got the dragons, we've got the ships, the Crown's strongest days will be ahead of, not behind. Uh, and Viserys seems like he's very blindsided by this. I wonder how much your read on this, Richard, was Viserys really authentically not having given marriage much thought or is he falling in love with Lady Alicent and that's, what's interfering in this moment? Richard Lawson: Well, my immediate kind of read of it was that like you know, for all, you know, the horrible thing he did at the end of her life. Like he and his old wife did seem to love each other in a genuine way. You know, there was a genuine partnership, a connection there. And so I think that, you know, in his grief, the, the idea that that would be kind of punctured by this, this just starkly political, you know, second marriage, um, to a child, uh, I think really throws him for a loop. And, you know, again, evidence of like, he's not always thinking as a ruler with a sort of political mandate, he's thinking more sort of in his emotions and, and whatever. And that is a quality that is probably better suited to most people, but in, in his very rare position, like he probably should have anticipated this and he really doesn't seem to have. Josh Wigler: No, I think that that's again, another big tell about where, where his head is at. Uh, happy you're on, of course, from, from this huge tragedy. Um, but he is, uh, he's not seeing that all of these, uh, these, these sharks are circling the ship as it were right now. Uh, and so he does seem to be taken somewhat unaware by it. But I think to your point that he is still very much thinking about his, his wife, uh, and that there's this conversation at the dinner table that follows next between Viserys and Rhaenyra, where they're still not really talking too much. It feels like maybe this will be a bit of a breakthrough conversation. At least they say some, you know, some mutual, uh, mutually kind words about, uh, about his, his wife, her mother. Um, but that's about it. There is still just this sadness that's kind of hanging between them, and I think also still this question of, and Rhaenyra will talk about this in this episode of, you're not choosing me to be the heir because you believe in me, you're choosing me to be the heir because you're trying to spurn your brother. Sort of seems to be her, her feeling on it. And I think when she's talking about how she wanted to give some insight to the small council and everything that's happening with the Stepstones, uh, that Viserys is fairly dismissive really quickly. He tells her you're young, you'll learn. Uh, so it still seems pretty tense and pretty awkward between father and daughter here. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Especially when I think in a lot of ways manifested in this episode, like Rhaenyra is a better leader. You know, she's, she's ready. She, she can see the, the, the bigger chessboard in a way that her father blinded by grief or sort of self-doubt or whatever it is, um, can't see. And, and I think that even though in that situation where she's saying, like, I understand why you picked me. Um, and, and it's not, it's not an, a advantageous perspective for her, but it is probably true in some sense. Josh Wigler: Right. Um, we'll continue with Viserys. You've been talking about it, we have to see the maggots being, uh, applied to Viserys's dead flesh to stop the advance of the rot. Cool. That's what I have in my notes is great. Thrilled to see this. Richard Lawson: Start with crabs, get some maggots midway, you know. Josh Wigler: We're, we're hitting them all, all the hits here, uh, in episode two of _House of the Dragon_. Uh, but Viserys is trying to suss out Otto Hightower, his, his hand of the king, his advice when it comes to what Lord Corlys has, uh, has proposed here. Uh, and it's so rich, the irony, uh, that Otto is saying, oh, what an overreach. I can't believe that he would, uh, he would try to marry you off to his daughter. Uh, the nerve of this guy. Richard Lawson: Yeah. We see his, his kind of cunning and the way that he really has Viserys's ear and, and, and a particular aptitude for how to talk to this particular king, you know? Josh Wigler: Yeah. Richard Lawson: Appeal to the emotion appeal to the sort of, you know, softer side of, of these questions and Viserys will listen and he does. Josh Wigler: Yeah. Yeah. So it's pretty clear that Otto is, uh, is trying to angle this in a certain direction. Uh, you know, maybe points for restraint in not outright being like, oh, but I really wanted you to marry my daughter. Uh, but that's the subtext here very, very much. Uh, and him telling Viserys to, to be compelled, to replace your wife for duties sake. I do not envy you, but you are the king. Uh, and it feels like a lot of subtle work that's going on from Otto, uh, in the direction of, um, you know, maybe there's somebody else who you're, uh, who your, your heart is telling you to look at. Uh, so all of that is, is happening as far as Viserys's is looming choice. It's juxtaposed, Richard, with this scene of Viserys and Laena going for a walk. She is 12 years old and, uh, this is a really, really difficult thing to, to watch. It just, I think the, the, the, just the, the size of the actors, uh, that does a lot in terms of stressing how messed up this situation particularly is. Richard Lawson: Yeah. And I think that Paddy Considine, the actor who plays Viserys does such a good job of, you know, he's talking, he's, he's repulsed, but he doesn't want this child to see that. You know? Josh Wigler: Right. Richard Lawson: He's trying to be polite, but also realizing, which every, with every step that he's having, he's walking closer, literally, to having to make this, you know, insane decision if you, if you chooses to make it like, and, and I just think it's a really well calibrated scene. And then you have the young actress, Nova Foueillis-Mosé, uh, who plays young Laena, um, she's, you know, doing a good job of this is a very trained kid. You know, she is saying exactly what she should, and then she breaks a little bit when he says, and what does your mother say? And she says, oh, that I wouldn't have to bed you until I'm fourteen. You know, which is a horrible thing to hear. Um, but it's just, I love that little bit of detail because you can imagine the conversation that she had with Rhaenys, where Rhaenys was like, look, I got passed over. We're gonna make this happen for you and I know it sounds icky and gross because he's an old man, but like I promise you, you won't have to do anything gross for a couple years. And as if that's some sort of comfort, you know? Josh Wigler: Yeah. Yeah. And I think to your point, Paddy Considine, I think plays this scene really well. You see that on Viserys too of like my God, what are we talking about right now? You know, kind of, uh, that energy that's emanating from this scene. One thing that she talks about in this scene that I think is worth noting now is she brings up Vhagar. Uh, I think we've talked about this a little bit, Richard, Vhagar is one of the three original dragons as part of a Aegon's conquest. Uh, the only one of those three that is still alive, but whereabouts unknown we're hearing, uh, Viserys is saying that there's some speculation that Vhagar is, uh, in, uh, has made home on the coasts of the Narrow Sea. Uh, you know, I'm, I wanna be careful about not spoiling too much, but what I will tease out here is that the story of Vhagar and, uh, and Laena Targaryen, uh, Laena Velaryon rather, um, linked, very linked. Uh, so it's, it's cool to be getting this shouted out at this point in time. You can look forward to some stuff going on here. Richard Lawson: At this point on this show, which I think is narratively a little more spare than the original _Game of Thrones_, just because there are, we're not in multiple different environments, you know, we're not in the north and in the desert and here and there. Um, because we're more streamlined, I think, any kind of reference like that, you have to kind of make a mental note of. You know, because clearly they are putting these puzzle pieces down with very much, you know, intentionally. Josh Wigler: Yeah, and I mean, how much of it is, because this will pay off in the show versus how much is this just, you know, sort of chum for the book readers, you know? Richard Lawson: Sure. Josh Wigler: Here's a, here's an Easter egg, here's an Easter dragon egg. Uh, this is, this is somewhat that, but also, uh, I think you can, you could look forward to, uh, some Vhagar action at some point in time on the show. Uh, so get excited about that. What did you make of the, the scene that immediately follows this Rhaenyra and Rhaenys uh, the, the similarly named princesses here. One who is the Queen Who Never Was one who is the Queen That Shall Be someday question mark here, where there's this question about, I don't know if you understand the way the game this is played. This sort of mutual accusation of, uh, you know, I don't know that you understand the, the actual lay of the land here. Rhaenyra with a lot of the attitude of I'm the person who has been anointed, uh, to the, to the Iron Throne. A bunch of people just pledged their loyalty and bent the knee to me. Uh, and Rhaenys is saying, that's not gonna matter when your father has a son. Um, what did you think of this entire scene? Richard Lawson: Well, yeah, I mean, that's, isn't that like a classic generational conflict. You know, the tensions between second wave feminism and third way of feminism. Like, you know, the young people saying, no, we've, we've turned a corner, there's progress, they bent the need of me, I'm gonna be queen. And Rhaenys is saying, no, I've lived through this, they're not going to do it. Like I promise you, you know, maybe, maybe things feel different, but I don't really trust that these men have evolved as rapidly as you seem to think they have. And I think that Rhaenyra is not so naive to think that like now it's like equal rights for everybody in Westeros, you know, I, I, or, or even in, in like the court. Um, she gets that she's a rarity, but like I think, unfortunately I think that Rhaenys is definitely right here. Josh Wigler: Right. Richard Lawson: Um, we already see a lot of those pieces kind of spinning into play. What- as Rhaenys points out, what is all of this scramble for her father to get married? It's about the likely chance that he would have a male heir and that thus kind of correct the lineage. Um, so I, I, I wanna believe in the, the future that Rhaenyra sees at least for herself, but I think Rhaenyra is, you know, having lived a few more years, uh, probably has the right, uh, outlook on things. Josh Wigler: And also we have watched _Game of Thrones, _so, uh- Richard Lawson: Well, we also were familiar with this world. Yes. Josh Wigler: Right, right. Uh, and I, I do think that this scene, this was a really, really good scene for, I think the thematics of the show. I think it was really important to get these two characters in the room together. And Rhaenys kind of serving as a potential cautionary tale for Rhaenyra here of like, listen to me, I'm coming to you with the lived experience and I'm not trying to upset you. I'm trying to reality check you based on what's happened with me. I think that the longer this show goes on, the further we get into this story, I think people are really gonna like the Queen Who Never Was, I don't know how she's resonating with you so far, Richard, but I've really enjoyed the way that the show's adapting this character. Richard Lawson: Yeah, I like her a lot. I mean, Eve Best is a great actor, um, has been good in so many things on screen and on stage and, uh, it's fun to see her in this kind of role. And I think that, what, what is fun about this scene or especially interesting about this scene is that, yes, I think that she genuinely doesn't want this girl who she's known her whole life to be disappointed or jilted or worse. But there's a, there's some teasing going on there too. There's a bit of a sort of sting to, to how she's saying it and why she's saying it. And, um, is that just sourced in like I got passed over bitterness. I think that's part of it, but I think it's also that, that, that Rhaenys probably sees Rhaenyra as an obstacle to her family, uh, and enjoys the fact that she could potentially ruin this kid's trajectory because yeah, in the same way that hers was it's, it's, there's a little, I don't know. It's not Miss Havisham toying with, you know, uh, Estella and everything like that, but there there's something familiar about the way that, that, that kind of relationship plays out that I like. Josh Wigler: Uh, Viserys is once again, with Alicent when he is confiding in her that there is all of this pressure for him to marry again. Uh, and Alicent says, well, you know, a good and kind queen will give comfort to your subjects. Uh, and the subtext here is, is pretty, pretty clear. Uh, given where the episode ultimately ends, was there any surprise that that was the direction that this ultimately was going for you, Richard? Or were you pretty much picking up what the show was putting down? Richard Lawson: No, I was picking it up. I guess my, my question was when did Alicent decide? Like, when did she know that this was her dad's motivation? Was it immediately, did she kind of grock that eventually, like... Josh Wigler: Right. Richard Lawson: I, I think that Alicent is such an interesting character because we, we're kind of, we haven't really been in her head much yet. You know, I'm hoping that we will as the show goes on, but like- Josh Wigler: I think it, it's a great observation because there's the, there's the world in which is she falling Viserys? Richard Lawson: Right. Josh Wigler: Or is, is she being put in this really terrible position as well? And I think that some of the self-harm that you're seeing from her, you know, cutting her, her fingers, this is gonna get observed by her father later. Um, this is the type of detail that isn't in the book that this is based on given what the nature of that is that it's a historical text. Uh, that's just not the level of character detail that you're, you're really seeing here. But I feel like it's underscoring a lot of the, the, the, you know, the sharpness of this entire situation. And I think that it's a very good call out that we don't really know necessarily how Alicent feels about all of this. Richard Lawson: No and even if she does feel some sort of dawning affection for Viserys, this guy, who's her dad's age, basically a little younger, maybe. Like, you know, is there something fatherly about that? If may, if it is romantic, I mean, is that not something akin to Stockholm Syndrome in some way, right? Like, right. Like, is this a genuine thing? I don't know that it could ever be fully uncompromised, no matter how she feels. Josh Wigler: Yeah. Uh, well speak of the devil and he shall appear, Otto Hightower shows up at this moment to, uh, to let the king know we got a situation. Uh, your brother, he's at it again. Uh, Prince Daemon, who has been holed up in Dragonstone, uh, for the last half year, which is not where he's supposed to be. He is married to a woman of the Veil. He should be in the eerie. Uh, he is not there. He is instead parked at Dragonstone and has been there unchallenged, you know, kind of in this, uh, this very big come at me bro, sort of, uh, vibe towards his brother. Uh, he is there and he has now gone a step further, Richard, he has come and stolen a dragons egg to place in the cradle of his upcoming child. Uh, he is about to get married. He's going to take a second wife, Mysaria, who we met last time, uh, is going to be his wife, uh, in the, in the styling of Targaryens who have multiple wives of old Valyria. Uh, and it's not just any drag egg, it is the same egg that was in the cradle that was placed for Prince Baelon, um, Rhaenyra's late brother, uh, the Heir for a Day. She's pissed. So is Viserys. Richard Lawson: They're in this war of insults, you know, and, and there's something I think kind of pathetic and petty about, it's like, oh, come on, you had to get that one egg, you know. But, and what, what I, obviously, they realize they're not dumb, is that like these little petty insults that ultimately don't really matter that much, you know, what egg he chose or whatever, have massive consequences. Josh Wigler: Yeah. Richard Lawson: And I think that the show is doing a good job of, of, you know, and we also, you know, we know that there are people under their rule, there's a whole city full of them there, cities, plural, and that they're so cavalier with like their wellbeing, you know, because if there's turmoil in the court, there's turmoil everywhere just to kind of get one in on their, you know, their niece, you know? It just feels, um, you know, it's frustrating, but in, in, in the, the right way. Josh Wigler: Uh, so Viserys himself is so upset and he wants to go to Dragonstone and drag, uh, Daemon out of the castle. Uh, Otto won't allow it. He says, I have to go. It's not, it's not safe for you to go. Plus I really hate your brother and I would love to be the guy who does this. Uh, so he is going to lead a small squadron of people back to Dragonstone. Really exciting to see this location again for the first time in, uh, many years for us now. Uh, and I think a lot of the ways in which it's a familiar location, and yet I think that the way that it is painted in this episode, the scene of Otto's contingent meeting Daemon on the bridges leading up to the castle of Dragonstone, um, with the, with the sun hanging low in the sky, in the threat, the rumbling of dragons in the distance, very evocative. Some of my favorite stuff that's been presented to us on _House of the Dragon_ thus far. Richard Lawson: Yeah. I mean, I love as I did reading the books and watching the original show, I just love all the little moments of exploration of these other castles and noble houses and noble territories. And you know, it, it's just a fun kind of for the completionist who wants the whole taxonomy of how Westeros's, you know, organized, like it, it, it, I like it. And so Dragonstone, correct me if I'm wrong, this is where we sort of met Stannis Baratheon on the original show is that right? Josh Wigler: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So Stannis Baratheon was given Dragonstone by King Robert, uh, and, uh, he's been holed up there for quite some time and eventually Daenerys takes it back as her see. It's been long linked to the Targaryens. This is where they lived before they conquered Westeros and so it's remained in the family. Richard Lawson: OK. Yeah. Josh Wigler: Yeah. Richard Lawson: So parallels and, and connections and- Josh Wigler: Very much, very, very much. Uh, so it's a big, you know, everyone's chest is puffed out and it looks like it's gonna come to blows and eventually we're gonna see Rhaenyra show up. And this is our first sort of dragon clash or close to it at least Richard. This is the _House of the Dragon_. This is the show that's supposed to be the dragon heavy _Game of Thrones _show and now we finally see two dragons in, in a lot of their glory. We see Daemon's dragon Caraxes, the red worm is what he is known as with the long neck, uh, the red scales. We see Rhaenyra show up on Syrax who is gold. Uh, what did you think of getting these two dragons in action? Just the threat of, uh, of armageddon looming over this scene. Richard Lawson: I mean it's fun foreshadowing for what I assume there will be some big dragon battle, probably an episode nine, you know, that's my guess cause it's, it's always the penultimate. Josh Wigler: Always the prologue. Richard Lawson: Yes. Josh Wigler: Yeah. Richard Lawson: Um, I mean, dragon clash sounds like a video game I would've played at the arcade when I was, you know, 11 or 12 years old. Josh Wigler: Sounds like one I'd played today if it were available. Richard Lawson: Yeah, actually. Yeah. Um, no, I mean, it's exciting and I think that we we're seeing Rhaenyra 's pros, um, and her, her ability to, I mean she and Daemon have a common sort of thing. They're both really headstrong and ambitious and tough and, um, that can serve them well. I think in Rhaenyra's case, it'll probably serve her bad the other times. Um, and, uh, you know, she's, she's maybe getting a little, you know, out over her skis, as they say. Like, yeah, she's maybe taking off too much, you know, more than she can handle really under the auspices of like her father and everyone else who's trying to control her. Josh Wigler: Yeah, the danger here is that she is the heir and if something were to happen to her, what happens to the line, right? Richard Lawson: Yeah. Josh Wigler: Uh, and so she's just taken this on her own and she does a great job of dismantling the situation. She calls Daemon on his bluff. He throws her the egg and walks away. Um, but Viserys when he comes to find that Rhaenyra went and did this, he has a lot of righteous fury, uh, towards his daughter in this moment. Um, and, and telling, telling her that you're my only heir, you could have been killed. We're in a pretty precarious situation, Rhaenyra, and we have to be very, very careful right now. So I think that her taking this drastic measure when we come back, and we're skipping a little bit ahead to, to her and her father sort of postmorteming this. Uh, that we are going to get, uh, I think as close to an honest conversation as where we're like to get for a little while, especially how all of this ends where he is going to say, because like, you know, because of the situation we're in, I, I hope you understand that I, I need to, uh, take a new wife. I, I will never replace your mother, but we need to propagate the line. Our line is vulnerable and by marrying again, I can ensure we're better defended. And I think that _House of the Dragon_, whether or not this is working for the royal you out there, I think is trying to position these things, uh, birth, childbirth, marriage. This is war, you know, this isn't love, but we, we are better defended if I marry again against whoever dares to challenge us. Uh, it's just such a, an offensive way of describing these things that are supposed to be the joys of life. Uh, I think it's a really fascinating way of looking at it on the show. Richard Lawson: And, and I think that's where you can see the sort of mechanics of why women are so subjugated, even in, you know, even noble women, women of the court is because they need them for strategic reasons. And they can't organize that in the way they want to if the women have any sort of agency or free will or anything, and, and Rhaenyra clearly is a challenge to that. Um, and her father is, you know, it's an awkward situation as you know, he's her dad. He loves her, but like, he has to be like, unfortunately like you women have a function in this whole setup and you are not living up to that, you know, or you're not allowing other women like to live up to that, you know, in terms of people he would marry. And, you know, I think this show is commenting to its credit on these really gendered systems and, um, trying to sus out like how that would actually feel for a young woman in this position. Josh Wigler: Yeah. In this moment, what do you think happens if Viserys says to Rhaenyra, okay, so I'm glad that we've talked about this and you understand, and by the way, I'm going to marry your best friend. Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah. Josh Wigler: I mean, just an aside, that's what I'm planning to do next. Richard Lawson: Right, yeah that is like the rudest kind of way to try to shake her awake. You know, be like, you know, there are ways that things works and by the way, the way that this is gonna work is that I'm marrying your, your, your, your best friend. Josh Wigler: What he ends up doing isn't any more polite I feel like. You know, he is making this grand pronouncement in the small council and it is breaking news to everybody in the room it seems like. He is, he is announcing that he and Lady Alicent are to be married and it feels like, the way it reads to me is that he has not talked this through with anybody. Richard Lawson: No. Josh Wigler: Uh, that this is... including Alicent it feels like. Um, and that he's making this call and this is coming after a lot of the conversations he's had throughout this episode. Uh, there's the scene that he has with Lyonel Strong, another member of the small council, who is one of the only members of the small council who isn't pitching his own child to, uh, King Viserys. And he's the one who says. You should marry, uh, Lady Laena. Uh, you know, strengthen the houses, make things nice with the Sea Snake, this is a good call. And Viserys is gonna make the choice that he makes ostensibly for love, if you wanna call it that. Um, and Rhaenyra has not been read in on any of this. Despite the fact that they had had a fairly decent conversation it would seem about why Viserys is making the choices that he's going to make. Was there a better way of doing this you think? Richard Lawson: Oh, I mean, probably trying to get the Sea Snake and Rhaenys to some extent, like trying to come up with some other thing. Like, I don't wanna marry your daughter, but what if we married off some of our kids or what if we struck up this other allegiance or alliance or whatever, you know? Um, but just to kind of blend- Josh Wigler: Some attempt at yes anding this. Richard Lawson: Exactly, but he blindsided him. And then you start to wonder that conversation between Rhaenyra and Rhaenys when she says men would rather put the whole thing to the torch than see a woman in power, was she may be talking about her own husband, you know? Josh Wigler: Right. Richard Lawson: Like, just so you know, if this doesn't go the way we want, my family wants it to go, this is gonna be bad for you. Um, so it might have been a much more personal and not a sort of more general, you know, hypothetical, uh, thing. And I think that for Viserys to underestimate how serious, uh, the Velaryons are about all this, uh, was the, probably the biggest error he's made yet. Josh Wigler: There's a lot of different inflection points I think. A lot of like hinge moments that this show is swinging on moving forward into this story. Um, you could, you could say that what happened last week with the death of Queen Aemma and, uh, Viserys's role in that, um, pushing the story forward into the places that it's going to go, I think that this choice here, this is worth planting a flag in. I think that this is a, a monumental move in terms of where _House of the Dragon_ is going, what this story is going to be focusing on moving forward. A lot goes differently if different choices are made in this moment. So, uh, we'll be going back to this scene, uh, quite a bit. I think going back to this episode quite often, as we continue, uh, breaking down the show. It's bad for Rhaenyra. It seems to be bad for Rhaenyra and Alicent's relationship as Rhaenyra turns and leaves. It's certainly pretty ugly between Viserys and the Sea Snake, who also turns and leaves. And we close the episode with him talking to a different Targaryen. He is going to summon Prince Daemon to drift mark his own home. Uh, and he's basically going to pitch Daemon on, if your brother isn't going to help me with this threat, with these people who are feasting my Navy, uh, to the crabs, then perhaps you would like to take a crack at it. Uh, and so we're gonna get this alliance at the end of this episode between Corlys and Daemon, uh, that's leading us into, uh, potentially, Richard, our first real taste of war on _House of the Dragon_. Richard Lawson: Yeah, no, I, I think we're, we're, we're just about due for some sort of battle scene, I think. Um, and so really quick, uh, the, the crab theater, he is the leader of- they're supposed to be what, pirates from Me- Meereen, right? Or something. Josh Wigler: So it's called, it's called the Triarchy. Uh, and it's an alliance of a few of the free cities, um, Myr, Lys and Tyrosh, uh, which were in conflict with Volantis, which is, uh, you know, stemming from old Valyria. So a lot, a lot of the... A lot of the Valyrian disputes, still alive and well here, and they have, um, this character who is the, the crab feeder. Uh, Craghas Drahar I believe is how you pronounce it, but gosh, what a name. Uh, and he is this Prince Admiral, uh, is, is what he is known as, and he is posted up here in the Stepstones and is, uh, causing all of this ruckus. And there's theorizing here that this is like a, a, a, a city sanctioned event. That this isn't just terrorism that is just emerging from this unsponsored group. This is, you know, getting close to not quite open war against Westeros, but definitely, you know, hitting the pieces of the Jenga tower to see what's weak and what could fall over. Um, so that's sort of the threat that the Sea Snake sees, and this is the threat that he is, uh, you know, advising Viserys early in the episode, you can sail toward the storm or around it, but you don't wanna just sit and wait for the storm to hit you. Richard Lawson: Right, which is kind of the Viserys's Mo it seems. Josh Wigler: Yeah. Richard Lawson: It does also make- Josh Wigler: The Sea Snake is basically saying, well, then let's hit the, let's hit the storm ourselves. Richard Lawson: Right. Josh Wigler: You know, you know. Richard Lawson: Someone's gotta do it. Josh Wigler: A like-minded individual in Daemon for that. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Josh Wigler: And that's the episode. That's week two of _House of the Dragon_ in, in the books. Very eventful stuff here happening in week two, Richard. Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah big things, uh, to come, big things already happening. Um, I, you know, if people wanna write in to stillwatchingpod@gmail.com about anything, but I actually would particularly like to hear from people who have thoughts on this whole age discourse, you know, that's clearly, uh, gonna be a big part of the show I feel like. Um, at least for the foreseeable few episode, next few episodes, um, I'd love to, to hear that and we can try to, you know, read some responses, uh, on the air next week. Josh Wigler: Absolutely. So that's stillwatchingpod@gmail.com, please write in. We would love to hear from you. We'll be back next week, continuing to break down _House of the Dragon_ here on the_ Still Watching_ podcast. Richard, if people wanna get in touch with you further, where can they find you on Twitter? Richard Lawson: Uh, I'll be at @rilaws and writing on vf.com where actually, uh, I will have coverage of some upcoming fall film festivals to look forward to. Josh Wigler: Very fun. You can talk to me @roundhoward online. I am recapping _House of the Dragon_ here at vf.com and writing further about the show as well, so hopefully you are enjoying that. Hopefully you're enjoying the podcast and we will be back next week to talk more about _House of the Dragon._ Until then everybody take care, bye bye.