Katey Rich: Hello, and welcome to _Little Gold Men_ the award season podcast from _Vanity Fair_. Intro: "It's such an honor to present this next award." "And here are the nominees." "And the Oscar goes to..." "And the Oscar goes to..." "And I can't deny the fact that you like me. Right now, you like me." "I'm the king of the world!" "There's a mistake, _Moonlight_, you guys won best picture." Katey Rich: Hi, I'm Katey Rich and I'm here for this interview episode with David Canfield. David Canfield: Hi, Katey. Katey Rich: David we're back in the world of television, even though Emmy voting is over, um, because summer brings exciting television these days. Uh, something that shouldn't surprise anyone these days. Um, but someone you and I have both been fans of forever has been doing some exciting TV work. So tell me about your conversation with Domhnall Gleeson. David Canfield: Yes, Domhnall Gleeson, Tony nominee, uh, star of many romcom and portrayer of many, a, uh, wide-eyed young man, as you and I talked about, uh, before the interview. Um, yeah, in this, in this new show, it's a very different kind of role for him. It's called _The Patient,_ it's from the creators of _The Americans_. It's an FX show, which is streaming on Hulu. Uh, and it's actually up today, so you can start watching it now. He plays a serial killer who kidnaps his therapist, played by Steve Carell, uh, through a sort of desperate attempt to try to get better and that is the best and most concise way I can sell this show. Katey Rich: I mean, I feel like we've seen a lot of people who have like cuddly images go dark to change things up. Steve Carell included, honestly. Um, but I feel like Domhnall Gleeson wouldn't go the like really obvious raving maniac route with a character like this. David Canfield: No, and that was immediately what we talked about. He has a lot of feelings and thoughts and concerns about the way serial killers are generally portrayed. Particularly the kind of lured fascination people have had with them on television, especially over the last few years. And he wanted, he was interested in the show because of the portrayal, both as written and the way he approaches it. Um, and how it differs from that. He's really nuanced and the show itself is really surprising at, at basically every turn in, in the way that it explores a, an extremely fraught and complicated dynamic between these two men. And, but gradually loses the sort of shock of this initial, um, premise and, and does something subtler. Katey Rich: Um, I don't know if you talked about this, but for fans of the Gleeson, uh, generation family at all, um, his dad, Brendan Gleeson's got a big movie out this fall, so good times for the entire Gleeson clan it seems. David Canfield: Yeah, they they've all worked together, and, um, I think in general, Domhnall seems to be exploring a lot of different kinds of stuff for himself, uh, which we, we went into and, uh, yeah, it's an exciting time for him. Katey Rich: Yeah. Well, let's hear your conversation with Domhnall Gleeson. David Canfield: I'm here with Domhnall Gleeson star of the new FX series, uh, _The Patient_ in which he plays the patient in question. Hi, Domhnall. Domnhall Gleeson: Hello, how you doing? David Canfield: Uh, I'm very well. Uh, I love your work in this show. I, I love the whole show, but you're obviously getting to play a particular kind of character here. Um, so how does one decide to play a serial killer as you do here? Domnhall Gleeson: Um, well, I, I guess, I guess, um, all the clues were in the scripts really. The scripts were nearly all written by the time I even kind of came on board. So the shape of who he was, the extent of what we would see him do and the kind of depths of, you know, how much we would see of him was already clear. So most of the clues were on the page to be honest with you, I thought the scripts were wonderful. David Canfield: Yeah. What, what was it like collecting the kinds of details about Sam that there are in the show. I mean, we learn he's a foodie. He has some interesting fashion eye choices, let's say. Um, but, but just generally, like how did, how did he start to make sense to you and when did it become clear that yeah, this is a character I, I could play and wanna play? Domnhall Gleeson: I well, I mean, in terms of the reason to do it, I mean, first of all, Steve Carell was, was already the lead of the series, uh, when they kind of came to me to audition or to talk to them about it. And that was reason enough. Then it was the writers of _The Americans,_ that's reason enough. But in the, in terms of the character itself, I guess I, I worry about the mythologizing of the serial killer of turning him into these, uh, these kind of sexy unknowable cipher who's fascinating and needs to be unpicked, uh, in a way that's sort of attractive. I think I've become bored of that over the last few years and a little worried about the way that that goes. And in the reading of this, it just didn't seem to have any of it. There's a kind of a pathetic hole at the heart of Sam that he doesn't know why it's there and he doesn't know how to fill it and I think that's probably much closer to the truth. Obviously, huge ego, huge selfishness, all that sort of stuff, but that was the stuff that drew me to like, oh, there's more to find out here and more ambiguity to play than the normal sort of really cool guy in sunglasses and I wonder what he's thinking. Do you know what I mean? David Canfield: Yeah, absolutely. I, I, I thought that was one of the really interesting things of this show because, you know, we all have, we all know the, the architects of this kind of character in the, in, in film and TV. Um, we have our Hannibals or Zodiac killers. Um, and I'm curious in playing Sam, if, if you know, the, there is the side of it, of not wanting to, to lean into exactly what you're saying, but if you also did feel inspired by any of those past portrayals, particularly, or felt more inclined to maybe subvert them a little bit? Domnhall Gleeson: Well, I mean, I love the film _Zodiac._ I think _Zodiac_ is a masterpiece and I suppose the way in that one, that they sort of play with the notion of, of that character being or not being the guy was like, that was the kind of really interesting thing in that. And, and, you know, his portrayal was stunning, but I, but I, I'm not sure I felt influenced by anybody when it came to this one. He seemed like just totally his own person. And I felt like really the, the thing defined was the links to me and how close he was to me and how close he could be to me. And to work on that as opposed to just work on the differences. Um, the differences came strangely easily. Uh, it was actually making the finding out how close he was to me in lots of ways. Uh, but that this all sounds very dangerous and like, maybe I'm... maybe if I were to, you know, tilt the camera around, you'd see some stuff you're not supposed to see, but, uh, that's not, that's not the case. Uh, uh, do you know what I mean, though? Like there's, he's got self-loathing, he's got all, he's got a lot of human stuff going on. Uh, he also has like a lot of privilege that he's not aware of. He's like, he's got all these things in him. He doesn't know how good he has it. He thinks his life should be better for no particular reason. He just, he, you know, and I think those are at moments in your life, whether that's when you're a teenager, whether that's whatever, I think you can tap into those feelings, uh, and you can tap into ego and all those things as well. Like I find that, I think a lot of the answers were on the page and a lot of the answers were in me. They were the places I look the most. David Canfield: Beyond the outrageous premise that we have here, uh, it is a, yeah, you look at the log line, it sounds pretty, uh, intense. Um, but the show settles, to your point into, I think subtler, thornier, psychological territory, and you kind of have to live in that space, both as an actor, and, um, the character does as well. So as you were, as you were suggesting, uh, in terms of finding that stuff within yourself, what, what was that experience like of digging deep essentially? Domnhall Gleeson: It felt, uh, remarkably freeing on this job. I've done intense jobs where it's intense all the time and sometimes with no reason. It's like everybody agrees to go intense in the hope that the show itself will be intense as a result and I don't find that to be particularly useful. I think on this one, yes you had to dig deep, yes, you had to take it seriously. You had to- they're big old scenes, so you need to know them inside out when you turn up. So there's a lot of work on the lines, on the dialect, but actually turning up on the day, not making any hard decisions and being open to what happened between myself and Steve and being open to, not even just being open to, but making yourself change the version you're offering from take to take, to give options. That was where, uh, fun came from, and that, that was where the work came in, was continually pushing yourself to kind of give something new. Uh, that, but that didn't feel like... that felt very energizing in a, in a funny sort of way. I found the whole experience kind of amazing finding a version of Sam that's more human, that's more shut off, that's more engaged. That's more manipulative. Offering up those options and letting them do whatever the hell they want in the edit then, that was where the fun was. It involved going deep into yourself, I suppose, as most good jobs do, but the people on it were really nice. I think that helps, you know. There was no unnecessary intensity, but then there were days that were, I mean, you, you went home tired. You felt like you left a piece of yourself there, you know? David Canfield: Yeah. It almost felt like at times, a stage two hander except you get to do multiple takes, but, um, did it feel that way for you? I know you've done, you've done a lot of stage, um, but it's really mostly you and Steve in a room, figuring each other out a little bit. Domnhall Gleeson: Yes, it did feel like that and yet the attack felt differently. I actually came onto this having just done a play, um, like literally finished a play. I, I actually came onto this job straight off a play. I had just been doing a play for a few months that had been in my head for a few years and it was a very intense play, very intense character, but he was a really good person. But I arrived onto this with all that play experience in my head. So going into this, I was aware that there were similarities with the play, long scenes, not too many people, not many distractions, sitting down ups at each other, getting through it, but the joy of the multiple take thing and of being able to manipulate judder and try something just once. Then, if it doesn't work, go again and try something totally different, or if it does work, try something totally different. That was new. And so I was kind of reveling in that, to be honest with you. That was kind of one of the really fun aspects of the job, having just come off a play that I did, you know, we did, I dunno how many performance I did- 70 performance to that play or whatever. I've done that a lot, you know? . David Canfield: Yeah. So how did you find working with Steve in that respect um, given how, given exactly what you're saying, um, different ways of working, how did you, how did you find your, your path together? Domnhall Gleeson: I loved every second of it. Uh, Steve's performance in this is very internal. Uh, he can't give too much away to Sam in any moment because Sam is volatile and if Sam sense his weakness, he, it angers him when he sees weakness in other people. So Strauss is aware of that and so he's keeping a lot hidden. And yet within that, Steve found this beautiful way of still being able to keep the scenes totally alive, totally present, and still found a way of being able to push me around from his side of the camera. There's an interesting dynamic in it that I've got total physical freedom and he is totally physically chained down, but the power then, the power dynamic shift, because mentally he is much stronger and knows himself much better than Sam does and so there were multiple levels of manipulation happening at any one moment. And Steve was just amazing at finding new ways to do it. New ways to kind of push each other around, bully each other, make each other want or need or recoil. Uh, he was as wonderful as you would expect. David Canfield: I wanted to zoom out a little bit, uh, in terms of, you know, this moment playing this kind of character in your career, you've played many, a a wide-eyed, uh, let's say hopeful, young man and, and I'm curious if you've thought about expanding on that and, and, you know, coming into a role like this, and you mentioned, uh, the play _Medicine_, I believe is the one you're referring to, um, expanding on the kind, you know, have you thought about breaking out of that a little bit? Obviously you've played a range of roles in your career, but this does feel like a, I mean, a new kind of chAlange, let's say. Domnhall Gleeson: Certainly a new kind of chAlange. Yes. I mean, uh, going to very different territory than, and different head space than where I'd gone before. But at the same time, I've been really lucky to be able to kind of wash back and forth between different sorts of people. And some of those wide-eyed people that I've played before, which I agree with you about that, weirdly had more going on than was immediately obvious. Like in things like _Ex Machina,_ which we ended up talking about a couple times just because they were also long scenes that were mostly two handers between two people where manipulation was key. Even that character had more going on than he was aware of I think at times. You know, so yeah, it didn't feel divorced from the work that I had done before. It didn't feel separate, it felt new and exciting and fertile ground. But it, it didn't feel like, oh, I should do this to try and change things up. It felt like I should do this because this is a great character, and this is Steve Carell and this, these are the people who did _The Americans_. They were the reasons to do it as opposed to anything else. That said, I loved the, I loved going in. I, I always felt, not happy, but I felt like satisfied going home in the evenings because you really got to purge a lot of stuff during the day, you know? David Canfield: Uh, I can imagine. Domnhall Gleeson: When you're playing somebody- yeah, exactly. When you're playing somebody who's happy all the time or who, where it's all about love, that's a beautiful thing, and you can go home happy because there's been a lot of love in the room all day. Yeah. But this way of going home was different. It was like, no, no, if you want to get something outta your system, you can take one of the takes and really get it outta your system. And there was a, that was kind of a, a brilliant way to go home from work. David Canfield: Yeah. Another past project view is that this surprisingly reminded me of was your _Black Mirror_ episode with Hayley Atwell. Um, because it's, again, two characters for the most part, in a room, in a home, and something's a little off and you kind of have to find your, obviously in that you're playing an artificial version of your character. Domnhall Gleeson: Yeah. David Canfield: But it's, it's, it, it, it reminded me of two characters who are not really connected, having to find their way with each other. Anyway, it's just stray observation. Domnhall Gleeson: I can, I can know. I can absolutely see that. And there, and there there's something, there's something about the way that Sam works that is impossible to fully understand. He doesn't understand it. And I think that's true of Ash in _Black Mirror _also, you know, like battling with the way that you are and not knowing what that is. I think, like not knowing what you're fighting in a way is a really, really difficult thing for the person who's living through it and for the person who has to deal with that also. So yeah, I can absolutely see the overlap there. Yeah. David Canfield: Um, you're a very funny actor and I think of this show that that comes through in, in particularly dark ways. Um, I guess broadly, I'm curious about playing a role like this, the balance between being. scary at times, finding those moments for humor, and then the core of the show, which is this very human conversation, uh, between these two men. And I suppose maybe I'm answering my own question because all those things are human, but with a character like this how do you strike that balance? How do you find those different kinds of moments to paint a whole picture? Domnhall Gleeson: That's really interesting and having read the script, that was one of the things, it was like, oh my God, there are a million ways to go at this. And the Jays who, who wrote it, and Chris, the kind of lead director who did the first few episodes in the last few episodes, they were very like, we don't want him to be scary. We don't want you to ever be scary or go at that because that's down the line. We want to see a real person struggling with something. And I would say, yeah, but like he's also these other things as well. And they were certain about his struggle to get better being an honest struggle. And not doubting that he wants to get better. And so trying to just go with the humanity of that was difficult sometimes because there's also aspects of his personality, which are deeply manipulative that I find really funny in a way, if you know what I mean. David Canfield: Yeah. Domnhall Gleeson: You know, and, and so, yeah, I, I, I think that the answer was to just give them options with it, uh, and say, okay, and because Steve is so wonderful at knocking the ball back or about just doing it in a totally different way, he kind of elevates all that stuff anyway, so if you start just down a slightly different path, you can just keep on going down that road, uh, with Steve. And so one which felt a little funnier, you could really go at it and they can use all of that if they want, or none of it if they want. If you, if you just want somebody who seems quite normal in the scene, give them that. But behind all of it, I always felt a little bit... I always doubted Sam's genuineness. I always thought like he does want to get better, but why does he want to get better? Because he could just hand himself in, you know, he doesn't just hand himself in. He, he's still got huge ego, huge manipulation, huge selfishness. And so that was the thing and I think that's where the humor comes from too, like is just really dipping into that, really leaning into his own blind spot about himself. David Canfield: Yeah. With a project like this, I find like the, the notion of giving options really interesting. Uh, did you find either in the direction over the course of the making of the show or in, in the edit itself that they lean towards something you were doing more than you expected or that it, it went less than a direction than you thought it would? Domnhall Gleeson: No, I, I, I think generally, uh, from what I've seen, the, the choices have for the most part been towards the most normal understated version of him and leave the concern in the, leave the concern in the, um, in the situation as opposed to in the character. I still think I, hopefully he is still scary at times and all the rest of it, but there were things I was concerned about, about how Alan, how much would Alan believe that he was a serial killer for example. How much would Alan be genuinely scared of him? That I think that, they were right. They were just like, no, no, just get rid of all that and trust in the setup. And I think that is the, yeah, I think that's the way to do it, you know? Uh, that I, I, I was very happy with all the decisions they made. David Canfield: Yeah. It's not a choice that every show would make about a character like this, because sometimes you would want, uh, the most dramatic, intense version. But yeah, the show seems to always make sure it's making the less sensational choice, I guess. Domnhall Gleeson: Uh, exactly. Yeah. I, I, I totally agree and, and also because there are moments of violence in the show, I don't think that's a spoiler. I think it's in the air from the beginning... you don't want to just always be expecting that. When that stuff happens, you want it to be genuinely shocking and not to have just seen it coming precisely. And I think that, I think that the Jays and, and Chris and our other two wonderful directors really played with that well, that when it happens, the ugliness of it. If you had the ugliness in it all the time, I don't think you would continue to watch. I think it's important to forget about it almost and then really punch through with it, so people then don't forget. David Canfield: Yeah. I don't think it's too much of a spoiler to say that Sam goes to occasionally violent, explosive places. Um, what kind of research did you do? I mean, when, when he starts going to those places, it's, it's all, it's a little bit out of body almost, in terms of the fact that he says he cannot stop, and the fact that he is doing incredibly dangerous, violent, abnormal things. How do you, how do you key into that as an actor who's not in those places necessarily? Domnhall Gleeson: You don't know my life. Uh, no, I, I think- David Canfield: I don't know what's- I don't know what's going on outside of the zoom window, it's true. Domnhall Gleeson: Yeah, exactly. So much. It's the whole way- it's man, it, it's crazy in here. No. Um, I think thinking about it as a compulsion and about the inability to stop one's own compulsions. Talking about the compulsion and being able to be, uh, uh, uh, specific with the words one chooses about that compulsion in a way makes you think that maybe you can control it or, you know, or makes another person think that you can control it if you can describe your compulsion accurately enough, but it doesn't stop it that when it happens, it takes over. And I think being really open, not jazzing myself up too much before those moments of thing, like really letting it just happen, taking an extra couple of beats to allow it to really go, uh, was the- was, was the right decision. And I think the takes that have ended up in the show for the most part, seem to be the ones every now and again you do takes where at the end of it you can't remember what happened during the take. You, you look down and the actor you're meant to be in a battle with or physically in a struggle with is fine, so, you know, you've retained enough self control to not step out the outside the boundaries of safety, which is obviously very important, but you can't remember sort of how a bunch of stuff happened in there. Those are the ones that tended to end up in the show and I think that's cool. It's like you have a little blackout and something bad happens, and then you wake up. Yeah. They're the ones that I remember and I think the experience of that was probably similar for Sam. I think he probably just, it's like a little blackout and then you open your eyes and somebody's not there anymore, you know? David Canfield: Yep. Yes, indeed. Um, quite literally in this case, um- Domnhall Gleeson: Yeah, exactly. David Canfield: With, with this show, you know, just speaking about it, it sounds like there was a lot of opportunity to think things over, make different choices. For you in your career, having done a number of smaller scale projects like this that are more character driven while also being in _Star Wars_ movies, um, is it a different kind of prep performance style between, I guess, big set piece kind of movies and, and this? Or have you found a more streamlined way of working between the different scales of projects you've done? Domnhall Gleeson: No. I think every, every project demands different things. Like a, a project like _Star Wars_ demands the ability to pace yourself, patience, and belief in a, a bigger picture. Um, a version of things, you have to lean on people a little bit more to understand where your place is I think, uh, a job like _The Patient_ getting to go in every day work with Linda and Emily and Steve, these just amazing actors around you. Like just throwing yourself into the person in front of you, like having done the work so all the lines are in there, like you don't have to think about your lines. They're just in there... work, so you work on those weeks in advance and then just being able to sit opposite the person in front of you and just go, go, go, go, and then go again, go again, go again. That is an absolutely different way of working. It's a different way of being tired. It's a different way of expressing yourself, and I loved every second of it. I mean, you know, if, if, if you had to pick one way to work above all others, that would be my choice. I love that I get to do other stuff as well, and I wouldn't ever only want to do one thing, but if it had to be one thing, I think this way of working would be closest to my ideal way of working. David Canfield: Hmm. And is that the way that you'd say you grew up learn, knowing? Like, was it more of a learning curve doing something like a _Star Wars _and figuring out how to prepare for that? Domnhall Gleeson: I think so. I think so. And it's a big. It's a, it's a, a big like, stage to learn on. Um, a lot of people are watching you learn those things. So _Harry Potter_, I only had a couple scenes in _Harry Potter_, but that was like, wow, a lot of people are gonna see me try to learn how to do this kind of film. Because there are not many films of that scale made. There's not like the tester version of _Harry Potter_ that you can learn on. So, yeah, I think that like the first time in _Harry Potter_, there was 300 people on the set. I had just arrived off... I forget what I was doing the last job before _Harry Potter_, but there were like 10 people on set. And then you go on there's 300 people there, the sets are massive. You've only got two lines in the scene, but you gotta hit your mark and stick it and accent and all that stuff was like, yeah, that's a lot to try to calm your heart rate, to be in the scene and not just panicking about the situation. With a job like _The Patient_ there is so much time when the camera's on that you can make a mistake and go, but not go back. You always push through, but you can make a mistake, the director will come in, you can have a conversation and you can try again immediately. You don't have to wait for a half an hour for everything to be reset. That's a... yeah, really different way of working. David Canfield: I can, I can only imagine. I I know you said that around _Star Wars_ being more known, more recognizable, felt a little scary. How has that evolved for you since then having done so many different things, kinds of things since then, including like, you know, _Ex Machina_ is such a beloved, like cult kind of movie, all these different audiences I feel like now know who you are. Domnhall Gleeson: You know, there's an aspect of it. The, the thing that I've always trying to remember, like the story that I've told, but the one, like the one that I come back to in my head to remind myself that it's true is that I've worked with Margot Robbie a few times and that she just never- she is so much more famous than I will ever be. She is so much more recognized in a totally different way, she's a woman. She gets a totally different type of, I don't know what the word is, but you know what I mean? Like scrutiny and, and she has never complained about it once. She gets on with her life, she's a brilliant life, she just takes all the good from it. And maybe privately, whatever, I'm sure she must, she must struggle with- she's a person, but she just moves on with this. So I've, I've just, I try and remind myself that complaining about people recognizing you for work that for the most part people like is not a good complaint to have. That's- you know what I mean? So I try to stick to that. David Canfield: Yeah. Domnhall Gleeson: It is unusual. I, well, I'll tell you where I love it is, um, with kids. So I did the _Peter Rabbit_ movies, I've done a couple things that kids would, you know, _Harry Potter_ when kids kind of recog- I, I was just working on a job where a couple of children came in and they knew me from _Peter Rabbit_ and he was like, they called me Mr. McGregor, and it was the most- it was absolutely amazing. That really made me happy. And then I did a movie called _About Time_ that people really seemed to connect with and in the last year, for whatever reason, that is absolutely exploded. People come to me about that film all the time and it was- David Canfield: Yeah, I've noticed that too. Domnhall Gleeson: It's the early 2000 and teens or whatever that's called, like that's when we made that film. It's a long time ago. It was probably 10 years ago. So, that's an, but again, it, people really seem to like it in a way that makes they seem to enrich their lives in some way, so, yeah. There's no I've been talking for ages about this, sorry. There's no complaints to be had. Any struggle with that is a personal thing that you just need to get over. David Canfield: Sure. Uh, it is a strange thing though. I, I completely understand it. Domnhall Gleeson: Um, it's, it's bananas. It's bananas. And if I start complaining, I'll never stop, but no, it's absolutely fine and everything's cool. David Canfield: It's totally normal. Yeah. Well, I, I don't think any children are gonna come up to you after _The Patient_ or for _The Patient_ or hope they won't. Domnhall Gleeson: If they do their eyes will be like saucers and they'll never be the same again. So yes, I would urge anybody listening with young children do not watch this with your kids. Katey Rich: That does it for today's episode, we'll be back next week with our regular round table conversation. In the meantime, follow us on Twitter, new place @HWD. You can follow me @kateyrich and David? David Canfield: @davidcanfield97. Katey Rich: You can sign up to text with us at joinsubtext.com/littlegoldmen or text 213-513-7201. Our editor and producer, as always, is Brett Fuchs.