Josh Wigler: Hello and welcome back to _Still Watching_ the television podcast from _Vanity Fair_. We cover entire seasons of the hottest shows on TV, and right now we are diving deep into _House of the Dragon_, the _Game of Thrones_ prequel series on HBO. I'm Josh Wigler, and to discuss _House of the Dragon_ episode three with me today while Richard Lawson's away on assignment, I am joined by Vanity Fair Senior Editor, Hillary Busis. Hillary, hello. Hillary Busis: Hey Josh. Um, I, I hope that I can be an able replacement while Richard is galavanting around Venice. Josh Wigler: Yes. Uh, I thought that he was in the Stepstones, so you just clarified something for me. I thought it was a much more violent struggle that he was in the middle of. Hillary Busis: It's it's a similar climate I think. Josh Wigler: Uhhuh Crabfeeder feels like the subject of, uh, some sort of, uh, big, fancy Venice film. Hillary Busis: I wouldn't be surprised if they're in like the new Iñárritu. Josh Wigler: I think that that's right, I think that's right. Um, we are talking about the third episode of _House of the Dragon_ here on _Still Watching,_ "Second of His Name." Little confusing title. Shouldn't "Second of His Name" be episode two, Hillary? Hillary Busis: You know, I think that makes a lot of sense. I don't have a good, I don't have a good response. I'm sorry. Josh Wigler: I just feel like the- it's just so confusing anyway trying to track your Rhaenyra from your Rhaenys, that I feel like second of his name on episode three, this is harder than it needs to be. A little bit. Just slightly harder than it needs to be. Hillary Busis: Yeah. It's, it's a lot of emphasis to put on a baby. Josh Wigler: Yes, for sure. Hillary Busis: It's a lot of pressure. Josh Wigler: A lot of pressure. Well, there's a lot of pressure on the child, uh, here in _House of the Dragon_, as, at long last it's all he ever wanted, viserys Targaryen, he's got a son, mazeltov, uh, to Viserys Targaryen. Hillary Busis: Mazeltov, as, as they said an old Valyria. Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm yeah, I believe it was an ancient Targaryen tradition. Uh, as we have, uh, we have a new Targaryen in the mix with Aegon the second, after a three year time jump here between episodes two and three, and we've got a lot to get into. It's not just the arrival of Aegon the second, second of his name, the titular, it's also a big battle heavy episode here on _House of the Dragon_ episode two, as we are getting our first taste of war against the Crabfeeder here, Hillary, what did you think of episode three? Hillary Busis: You know, I gotta say, I, I like palace intrigue a lot more than big battle scenes. Um, just because I find it more interesting. I don't, I don't know. I don't know that the Crabfeeder war has really done that much for me, just because we don't really know who any of these people are yet and so getting invested in this, uh, conflict that even Viserys and everybody else in King's Landing seems to be like, not very concerned about. Josh Wigler: Right. Hillary Busis: It feels like a lot to ask us to invest in it at this juncture in the show when we're only in episode three. Josh Wigler: Yeah. It maybe tells you something if even Viserys is like, oh, let's not think about the war. We don't have to talk about that, like the war is not that important. Hillary Busis: Yeah. The succession dramas feels like so much more central to- Josh Wigler: Yeah. Eyes on me, eyes on me says Viserys. Yeah. Hillary Busis: Yes. Yeah. It, it feels, it feels a little, if we're not going to have a narrative that's going from place to place to place right away and we're going to have this kind of more, more cloistered, more focused show than suddenly having our attention split between these two far flung locales when it doesn't necessarily even seem like the fight matters that much to the main storyline, um, I don't know. Josh Wigler: Yeah. Hillary Busis: Maybe I'm, maybe I'm not giving them enough credit, but, uh, I gotta say when I saw that the, the crab eaters like guts and torso, I was not, I was not like, oh man, what a, what a fight. I was like, all right so now I don't have to deal with this guy anymore. Josh Wigler: Yeah. It's just two weeks of talking Crabfeeder, basically, I guess, uh, mild spoiler alert, but you watched the episode, he's dead. Uh, no coming back from that. So Crabfeeder taken care of, feed 'em to the crabs. Perhaps gonna be surprising, I think to some people it's like, oh, well they're really setting up the Crabfeeder as the season long bad guy, uh, no, he gets taken out rather quickly, uh, as it is in the book, uh, in _Fire and Blood_, uh, that this one is based on, the war against the Crabfeeder, Hillary really takes place little more than a paragraph. Hillary Busis: Okay. That's what I was wondering. I was wondering if we got chapters of this. Josh Wigler: It's really, really quick and the, the big battle sequence that we get at the end of this episode is yet another really good example of the way in which the show can embellish, uh, what's in the text because it's historical text, you know, it's pretty dry or at least it's fairly sparsely written. I don't think it's fair to call it dry. Um, and there's a lot of room to, to add and infuse, uh, more drama into the scenes. The way it's written in the book is effectly yada, yada yada, at last, when Daemon came face to face with Craus Crabfeeder, he flew him single handed and cut off his head with Dark Sister. And that's how it's written, and you don't even see that, which is ironic enough is the actual killing of the Crabfeeder happens off screen. The one detail that George R.R. Martin actually gives you in the book of how this battle played out. Hillary Busis: Oh, that's, that's an interesting choice. Josh Wigler: There's actually a really great illustration in _Fire and Blood_ from, uh, Doug Wheatley, who does the illustration, the artwork for the book that is Daemon Targaryen fighting a very different looking version of the Crabfeeder as he, uh, he has swung his sword through, the, the Crabfeeder is headless and this tiny little crab is just in the foreground watching. Uh, and I, I think maybe it was just too iconic on its own. They're like we can't rep- we can't replicate that. The book did it better. We shouldn't even try. Hillary Busis: Do you think the crabs are... like are the crabs on the Crabfeeder side? I mean, I guess so since they're being fed. Josh Wigler: Yeah. Who's was gonna feed them now? I think that they're, uh, they're- Hillary Busis: They're gonna have to fend for themselves. Josh Wigler: They definitely had a, yeah, they definitely had some skin in the game here I think. Literally, uh, it was the people that they were eating. Uh, so I think, uh, they're probably pretty disappointed would be my guess. Yeah. Hillary Busis: And I will say that the, the design of the Crabfeeder was cool. I liked his, his weird, scary mask. I, yes, like we can... I can acknowledge that. Josh Wigler: Yeah. So, uh, R I P Crabfeeder, we hardly knew you. Uh, no dialogue from the Crabfeeder. Just, uh- Hillary Busis: We're certainly talking about him a lot for somebody that I actively don't care about. Josh Wigler: Yes. Yes. I feel like, uh, I feel like Crabfeeder will live long in, uh, whatever the Valhalla of memes, uh, is called. Uh, we will, we will continue talking about that. We will, of course continue talking about this episode. We have feedback from everybody. We wanna get feedback from you all season long. You can write in stillwatchingpod@gmail.com. We'll read some feedback at the end of this episode. We will recap this episode of "Second of His Name" _House of the Dragon _episode three, just after this very quick break, stay tuned. All right, Hillary, when we begin, uh, we do begin at the Stepstones. We are once again, it's a second episode in a row beginning with the Crabfeeder, just doing his crab feeding thing. Feeding someone to crabs. Hillary Busis: Uh, and also, uh, crucifying a guy. Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's cool. Uh, that's something that, uh, I think, uh- Hillary Busis: That's cool. We all, we all love crucifixion on this, on _Still Watching_. Josh Wigler: It's what we tune into the podcast for folks. Uh, as the Crabfeeder, yeah, he's crucifying this pirate, this very surly pirate, who is, uh, who is reading the Crabfeeder for filth. Uh, and the, the cruc- the crucification is interrupted when Daemon Targaryen rolls into town on dragon back. This is finally _Fire and Blood_ showing up here on _House of the Dragon_ as last week, we got a little bit of a tense dragon standoff on Dragonstone, this week, we finally get dragon action, uh, as Daemon is gonna roll into town and, uh, for the first, but not last time in this episode, try to single handedly end this conflict. Um, Hillary, as somebody who you said you are more interested in the palace intrigue of this show than the action scenes, how are you feeling when the first sequence of the episode was very, very action heavy? Was there any part of you that was like, okay, at least we're delivering on the dragons at this point? Hillary Busis: Oh, no, for sure. And like, well, yeah, I'm, I'm not made of stone seeing a giant fire breathing beast- Josh Wigler: Crabfeeder might be. Hillary Busis: Yeah. Seeing a giant fire breathing beast, you know, wreaking havoc on a bunch of innocence of, I mean, not innocent I guess they're soldiers, but on a bunch of people, you know, burning a bunch of people alive, like, yeah, it's enjoyable. It's just what we came here for, that's why this show is so expensive. We wanna see it on the screen. Josh Wigler: Um, yeah. Hillary Busis: And, uh, I don't, I don't know. I mean, uh, you, you do mention in your, uh, recap on vf.com right now, um, that he... that, uh, Daemon is, uh, attacked with flaming arrows and maybe sort of wisely decides not to test the theory that, uh, fire can't kill a dragon when he finally does wind up retreating. I, I do wonder, is that, is that a thing for all Targaryens? Was that just Daenerys that one time when she gave birth to the dragons. Like, can, are they actually impervious to fire or is that something that we will see? Josh Wigler: This is hotly contested. Uh, I think the answer tends to be no. And you look at Jon Snow in the first season of _Game of Thrones,_ there's one point where he's, uh, really having a hard time with fire. He has a, a little bit of a skirmish with one of the, um, the, uh, the resurrected, uh, members of the Knight's Watch who has been White Walker- ified. Uh, so it's not a, it's not a uniform rule across the board. I think heat resistant more than, uh, a heat immunity, uh, I think is okay. Hillary Busis: Flame retardent. Josh Wigler: Yeah, I think so. I think, I think what, uh, what is definitely the case, and we tragically saw this in every sense of the word tragically in _Game of Thrones,_ is that the dragons are not impervious to being skewered. I think skewering, uh, does kill a dragon. So enough arrows would probably do the trick. Hillary Busis: That's the best, uh, if you're going to try to kill one, I guess. Josh Wigler: Stick them with the pointy end is I believe the, the old parlance, uh, around _Game of Thrones_. Um, so yeah, he flies away. There's a great sort of blink and you miss it moment when, um- well, first of all, there's this scene when this, this one guy is rooting for Daemon and yes, Prince Daemon, I'm so happy you're here. And then he just gets crushed uh, by the dragon, which is, uh, I don't know. It was, it was kind of, I don't know if, if it's just a, a lack of, um, this, these are such intense shows, Hillary, that you take the laughs where you could get them, but I definitely had like a pretty dark laugh at this poor guy getting crushed underfoot. Hillary Busis: It does remind you how, you know, we are so focused on the no ability, how awful it is to be a peasant in this world, regardless of who's in charge. Josh Wigler: Yes. Hillary Busis: And how your life is just kind of shit uh, no matter who's on the throne. Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm, pretty much so I think, uh, really driving that point home. The other thing I really enjoyed about this opening sequence is Daemon is on Caraxes. He's on the blood worm and he's flying around, he's calling out for the Crabfeeder and he says, Crabfeeder, where are you? I'm gonna feed you to your own crabs. And then he's surprised that the Crabfeeder doesn't show himself. Like that may be a better sales pitch you need, uh, to work on here, Daemon. It's like, OK, I'm gonna hide for three years. I'm gonna make sure he does not feed me to my crabs. Hillary Busis: Yeah. I was surprised honestly, that there was such a big jump, uh, between last episode and this episode. I understand that there's a lot of story that they're trying to get through, um, in this one season, but I still wouldn't have thought that we would necessarily just kind of do away with three years or two and a half or however long it was, and then the blink of an eye. Josh Wigler: Yeah. So this is a really different thing, uh, that _House of the Dragon_ is doing versus _Game of Thrones. _You know, in, in _Game of Thrones_, we are spanning however many years that the whole show spans and it's on a pretty linear path. Here in just three episodes of_ House of the Dragon _we have spanned three and a half years already. Uh, so it was about a half year between episodes one and two, and just within the space of episodes two and three, and, and really this opening scene in episode three. And then the very next scene that you get is a three year time jump. Um, Alicent and Viserys are married. She is the queen. They have a son. Uh, it is his second birthday. She is pregnant. She has another child on the way. Um, you were shocked by this, Hillary. Are you, are you surprised by the pace of it so far? Hillary Busis: It is. I mean, I remember, I know going, I knew going in that, uh, the younger, some of the younger cast members are going to be replaced by older ones and so, you know, given that I should have been expecting it, but still, it just, it does sort of feel like we just met everybody and now, you know, they're aging before our eyes and we'll have like- it's like seasons of _The Crown_ compressed or something. Josh Wigler: Yeah. Hillary Busis: Um, and then the second, the second half of the show might be kind of an entirely different show. Josh Wigler: Yeah, I think that that's one of the reasons, uh, not just the, the shared involvement of Matt Smith that I think this show has gotten a lot of comparisons to _The Crown_ is there is this sort of generational idea. And I, I think that, um, we're already skipping through time and we haven't done recasting yet. So might give you an indication of how far spanning the storyline is, uh, on this show. So I'm, I'm curious to know how that's working for people and especially if you out there are, uh, either excited about or dreading the big time jumps that are going to occur that make it so that, um, Milly Alcock is not gonna be Rhaenyra anymore. Emma D'Arcy is going to be showing up to play that character. Is that going to work for you? Is that something you are nervous about? Please write in, we would love to hear from you on that stillwatchingpod@gmail.com. Um, but we're here, Hillary, in this three years later time period, there's a big celebration. It is Aegon's second name day. They're gonna head to the Kingswood nearby and have this very exciting lavish celebration for- Hillary Busis: Now clearly none of them have watched _Game of Thrones_ or they would know never to attend a birthday, a wedding. Josh Wigler: Yes. Hillary Busis: A bar mitzvah. Josh Wigler: No bar mitzvahs, uh, get, get outta here with all of that. Uh, yeah. Hillary Busis: There are no celebrations that turn out well in this universe. Josh Wigler: Everything should be very dry. You should just really go about your day as cleanly as possible. Nothing celebratory here in Westeros. Uh, totally, totally agreed. Um, but Viserys wants to take his mind off of all of the politicing and everything that's going on in the Stepstones, no one is really letting him. Uh, we see, uh, we see Tyland Lannister here, uh, who is going to be the first of two Lannister twins. Uh, new Lannister twins in the _House of the Dragon_ here, Hillary. Uh, step aside, Jaime and Cersei, we've got a, we've got a new Lannister in the building. Hillary Busis: And a, a Lindsay Lohan situation in that they're both played by the same actor. Josh Wigler: Indeed. Yes. Uh, Jefferson Hall is the actor who is playing, uh, Tyland Lannister who you see in this first scene. He's imploring Viserys to think about if there was ever a time to turn your attention to the Stepstones, it's been going on for three years, we've gotta do something about it, so he's really making that pitch. Um, but it's gonna be Jason Lannister that we spend a lot more time with later in the episode. Uh, I was surprised to learn this, Hillary, that, uh, the actor who is playing these two Lannister siblings has already been in the _Game of Thrones_ universe. This is his- Hillary Busis: Oh, really? Josh Wigler: His third character in the Game of the, uh, the _Game of Thrones_ universe. Hillary Busis: Oh, so he's, he's the Justin Theroux to Sex, to _Sex and the City_ of the _Game of Thrones _universe. Josh Wigler: Yeah. Uh, he is playing, so he's playing two distinct characters on this show. He also played Ser Hugh of the Vale in the first season of _Game of Thrones._ A really small part, uh, but important, uh, not insignificant in the first couple of episodes of the show. He's part of some of the who killed Jon Arryn mystery, uh, in the early going of the show. So, uh, you know, it's not without precident. Dean-Charles Chapman who played Tommen on _Game of Thrones._ He had played a different Lannister previously on the show before he got recast as the king. Uh, so I guess the, the throne though goes to Jefferson Hall for playing three distinct characters. I don't know who's coming for that crown anytime soon. Uh, but interesting trivia. Some interesting trivia behind the scenes here. Um, so Viserys is going to head out to the Kings Road, alongside Alicent, alongside their children, but Rhaenyra is missing in action and they do not know where she is and they need to round her up. She is, uh, by her favorite tree, Hillary, just read in her favorite book as Rhaenyra's want to. Hillary Busis: And listening to a song that I am sure has some greater significance that I did not catch. Josh Wigler: Yeah. Hillary Busis: I was hoping that you could maybe decode that. Josh Wigler: This bop _Under the Dragons Eye_, uh, has that been earwormed for you yet or need, you need to hear it a few more times? Hillary Busis: Uh it's it's not exactly _The _Rhaenyra_s Of Castamere_, but it is catchy. Josh Wigler: Not yet. Not yet. Uh, yeah, he is seeing, so this bard who is apparently named Samwell, uh, because if you're in Westeros, you have like one of five names I suppose, is how this works. Uh, he's, he's talking about, she fled her ships. Uh, she fled with her ships and her people, her heart broke the, the song that he's seemingly telling, uh, the song he's seemingly singing tells the tale, I think once again, of Nymeria, who we've heard about on the show already. This is the same story that Alicent and Rhaenyra were talking about back in this same setting, uh, in the, in the premiere of the show. Hillary Busis: And she's also who Arya Stark will eventually name her direwolf after. Josh Wigler: Exactly. Yeah. And she's also potentially, depending on where HBO wants to go with this, she is at the center of one of these other successor shows. _10,000 Ships_ is the name of that one and it's the, the tale of this warrior queen Nymeria who is effectively the founder of Dorne. I think she's like credited as one of the real founding figures in, in Dorne. And I think that her story, at least maps kind of aspirationally for someone like Rhaenyra, an unlikely conqueror, someone who's a, a unifying force who has a big struggle. Um, I think that a lot of the Nymeria story maps onto where Rhaenyra is positioned right now as the heir to the Iron Throne, but even from her vantage point, she feels like it's a long way to get there. Hillary Busis: And certainly not a coincidence that it's a female hero. Josh Wigler: Exactly. A hundred percent. So, and I think also not coincidental that we are once again getting that story or a version of that story, underscoring, a scene of Rhaenyra and Alicent together in this exact place where we first really saw them being really close, being close friends, and they are worlds apart at this point, as Alicent is now Rhaenyra's mother-in-law and it's gotten awkward. It's gotten a little uncomfortable. Hillary Busis: Oh man. Yeah. I, I, there must be a special pain of seeing your father continually impregnating your former best friend. Josh Wigler: Yeah. Uh, that is definitely one of the circles of hell. I'm not sure which one, but it's in there. It's in there for sure. Um, so Alicent is trying to, to encourage Rhaenyra come on, let's go. Your, your father is waiting. The hunt is gonna be fun. Uh, and uh, Rhaenyra saying, is this, uh, is this the King's command? Is this yours? She says, it's the King's command. And Rhaenyra says, well, then, uh, I'm coming. You know, uh, and Alicent says it doesn't have to be this way. None of this needs to be this way. How are you feeling about Alicent and Rhaenyra's relationship at this point, Hillary? Are you, are you, um, sympathetic to where Alicent seems to be coming to Rhaenyra with where she's trying to say we could, we could still be friends. It doesn't have to be as tense as it's. Hillary Busis: Well, it's, it's funny. It does kind of seem like nothing has changed between like in their dynamic and the, even though there's been such a large like amount of time since we last saw them, it kind of seems like they're frozen in where they were at the end of the last episode at this like point of betrayal. It seems like it's still very fresh. Um, which it feels understandable, especially if you're a teenage girl, that's, that's gonna be a tough, a tough, uh, thing to swallow. A tough thing to get over. Josh Wigler: Yeah, I think so three years might not be enough time. Uh, so they are gonna get onto the Kings Road. It's a very awkward carriage ride to the Kingswood. Viserys is like, oh, look at my look at my son. Here's Aegon, Rhaenyra, you're gonna be a great mother sooner or later. You're gonna make me a proud grandfather. Uh, and Rhaenyra really wants nothing to do with this. This will be a very big theme throughout the episode, uh, that she's, she's having a hard time with her father. She's especially having a hard time with her father, very clearly wanting to, uh, marry Rhaenyra off, uh, that he is fielding a lot of different proposals for the potential heir to the Iron Throne or at the very least the princess, uh, here in Westeros, Rhaenyra wants to hear absolutely none of it. Hillary Busis: Yes. Feels, uh, feels very much like the, the old trope of the, you know, defiant princess, um, that we've seen I think in a lot of, uh, fairy tale, medievel-eque fantasy stories before. Um, although I don't know, given, given how young people are betrothed in this particular world that we're, you know, talking about getting, I mean, this is a, this has happens later in the episode that we're talking about but bethrothing potentially a two year old, it's kind of surprising that she's managed to survive to 17 without having a marriage. Josh Wigler: Right, yeah. It's a coup uh, 17 feels late in the game here in, in Westeros. Hillary Busis: She's already drying up. Yeah, old maid. Josh Wigler: Yeah. Oh yeah. Uh, put her in the tower. Yeah, the, the whole thing was marry your two year old brother, by the way, is just, just too far. Too far _Game of Thrones_. Um, okay, so we reach the, we reach the camp. We're seeing all these people who are, who are, who are here for this celebration. Um, you get your first sighting of the aforementioned Lannister twins, a bunch of other Lords and ladies. The, the Strong family, uh, who I am a big fan of, uh, Ser Lyonel Strong, Lord Lyonel who has been giving, uh, Viserys a bunch of, um, uh, his council over the course of these past two episode. He's here, uh, and a couple of others as well, including his son who we, who we meet very briefly in this episode. There's a character who shows up here when Rhaenyra is in the tent and, um, all of these women are talking about the Stepstones and what's happening there and this man comes up to the group, uh, and he says, uh, gods didn't make me fit for hunting. Can I sit with you? He has a clubfoot. His name is, uh, Larys Clubfoot is this character. He is the son of Lyonel Strong just to set this guy up. Uh, keep an eye on him. Hillary Busis: Not, yeah, not, not having, not having book knowledge it does seem like the way he was introduced uh, he will become a player that we should pay attention to. Josh Wigler: Yeah, I think that that's right. Uh, I think that this is, this is a, this is a very compelling character that is entering the game right now in a, in a really quiet introduction. Um, but to, to say, uh, to be continued with this guy, I think, uh, you know, it's not spoiling too much. He's, he's got a kind of, um, interesting arrival here and he's gonna, he's gonna have a really big role to play in a lot of what's coming up next. So I'm very excited to see how the show handles him. There's another, uh, really quick, uh, thing that perked my ears as a book reader here, Hillary. There's this conversation that's happening, where these women are mentioning someone named Johanna Swann, who is a character from, uh, who is a character from the book fairly, uh, from, from _Fire and Blood_, uh, is mentioned as one of these people who gets, um, she is captured during the Crabfeeders reign over the Stepstones. Uh, George R.R. Martin writes about how, uh, she was being held for ransom, but her uncle doesn't want to pay the ransom, so she ends up getting sold to a Pillow House in Lys, one of the, the three cities that is, uh, potentially, uh, funding, the Crabfeeder, uh, and George R.R. Martin writes that she rose to become the celebrated courtesan, uh, known as the Black Swann, a ruler of Lys in all but name. And then he writes alas her tale however fascinating has no bearing upon our present history. It never writes about her again. As far as I remember atleast. Hillary Busis: That is admirable restraint for George R.R. Martin who I feel like never met a digression that he couldn't follow. Josh Wigler: I feel like that is a moment of him very like clearly in the text checking himself. It's like, can't do this, George. No, we have a story to tell. Uh, so I thought it was funny to get the aside here and, and who knows if it's gonna come to bear on what's happening in _House of the Dragon_, it's already expanding on, uh, _Fire and Blood _in ways that I didn't expect. So you never know she could, she could come to, to play in, in, in some capacity. Um, but Rhaenyra is over here, uh, listening in and, and speaking with everybody and they're talking about how we're at war whether we want to admit it or not. We've been dragged into it by Daemon and the Sea Snake. We have to do something to, uh, to get out of this. So this will be a running theme throughout the episode. Outside of the tent, Rhaenyra meets Jason Lannister, who is just throwing it all out there, Hillary. Uh, just making it really clear, uh, his intentions for the Princess. Hillary Busis: Shoot your shot, buddy. What do, what do you have to lose? Josh Wigler: Like, I might not be on the show for long. Uh, so I really have to just, you know, while I'm here, I have to make my presence known. I guess if he's not on the show for long, there is another Lannister twin, and even then maybe, uh, the actor could score a fourth Westeros, uh, character. Hillary Busis: Anything is possible. Yeah, it does, it does, uh, it's sort of funny to see, like Lannisters were always Lannisters I guess even 200 years before we meet the ones that we meet on _Game of Thrones._ Josh Wigler: Do you feel like, uh, this character's living up to the Lannister title as our first Lann- like our first really prominent Lannister on the show so far at the very least. Hillary Busis: Yeah, I think so. He is, he is confident. Uh, he is, uh, cocky even. Um, he certainly has the aura of like, I'm a rich guy who gets what I want. Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm yeah, yeah. I'll build you a dragon pit. That's not a problem. It's a big flex. Um, Rhaenyra- Hillary Busis: Like my, my Casterly Rock is so huge. That was a large part of the conversation. Josh Wigler: Yeah. Let's not get into a castle measuring competition here. Uh, so Rhaenyra is going to not take kindly to this and she is going to march right up to her father and say, so this is why I'm here. Uh, because you're just, you're looking at me as a prize to be won. Uh, they get into a pretty big spat, pretty public. Uh, Viserys's kind of claps back at her. Like even I am not above tradition. Otto Hightower, King of Subtlety, has to show up. Or hand of the King of Subtlety, I suppose, uh, shows up and says, you can't be doing this right now. This is too public. Uh, she marches off. She goes off, uh, towards the woods and she is going to, uh, leave in, in this huff. And Ser Criston Cole is going to be following her for them to have their own little side adventure for the rest of this episode. Hillary Busis: And, you know, you, you feel for her, but I also have to wonder, like, we've... she's, she's part of this world, she grew up in this world. She must know that her getting married is kind of what she is supposed to do. There was the, in, you know, she had that whole conversation with her mother right before she died about how, you know, the, the women's, the woman's battlefield is the child bed. And you know, this is what women do in this patriarch, patriarchal society. Like, I, I feel like it's a little... it's maybe a little less than believable that she would be so resistant to the idea that she has to get married. Josh Wigler: I think you seized on something really interesting earlier when you talked about how it felt like, uh, there was this moment in time that was frozen between Rhaenyra and Alicent, that they're both 17 at this point in the show now. Um, but there are ways in which they feel younger still. Uh, and so I, I wonder about that. I wonder, you know, how much did that betrayal both from, you know, uh, at least from her vantage point, her best friend betraying her, certainly a big argument that her father is betraying her trust, uh, by, by marrying Alicent. How much did that, you know, in such rapid succession with the death of her mother too, how much did that stunt things? How much did that just freeze a moment in time for her that she's having a hard time, even with all of her dragon power thawing? Um, I think that that's, there's a, there's an element of that that's happening with Rhaenyra. And whether or not some progress is made, uh, between her and her father by the end of this episode, it certainly seems like they leave this one on better terms than they left the last one at the very least. Hillary Busis: Yeah and, and I'm sure there will be another time jump between this in the next episode and we'll have seen some sort of, some sort of greater growth. Although I don't know, maybe not. Josh Wigler: If past is prologue, I suppose. Um, so we are going to, uh, we're gonna see that Criston Cole and Rhaenyra, they're going to be bonding in the woods. Uh, Criston wants to just head right back to camp now that he's caught up with her, but she wants to keep walking. It's a beautiful day in the Kingswoods, so they're going to do that. Ser Criston Cole is talking about how he, uh, he is going to, he has as much success as anyone from his family is ever going to see. Uh, that he was, you know, uh, a common, he was from Common Stock. Uh, he has been elevated to a position on the King's Guard. Uh, and this is all thanks to Rhaenyra's power, so he tells her that if you're thinking you're powerless, I would hardly call you powerless. So it's, it's a really big moment for Ser Criston Cole getting to kind of bear his soul to, to this person here, which is kind of, uh, you know, not really something that you expect from a member of the King's Guard. They're supposed to really be kind of sturdy, strong, silent types. I don't know if you're getting any major takes on Criston Cole starting to develop for you, Hillary? Hillary Busis: I mean, I think I'm getting the major take that he and Rhaenyra are, uh, headed toward a bore hunt of their own if you know what I mean? Josh Wigler: I believe I am picking up on the subtext. Hillary Busis: Uh, the vibes are not super subtle. Josh Wigler: Yeah. Yeah. Neither of them, particularly with much chill in, in this regard. Uh, meanwhile, the hunt is continuing as Viserys is being told that there is this White Heart stag somewhere in the Kingswood that is being tracked. Uh, and so this is this very majestic deer that, um, he's being told that before you and your dragons showed up, this was the animal, this was the one, this was a symbol of royalty in these lands. And again, uh, not so subtle Otto Hightower being like, oh, well, if there's ever been a sign that's something, that a regal symbol is showing up on your son's name day. Hillary Busis: Who happens to be my grandson, but we don't have to talk about that. Josh Wigler: You know, and Viserys is like, kind of pats him on the shoulders. Kind of like, I know I'm pretty dense, but I'm picking up what you're putting down. Uh, we could just put this aside for now would be great. Um, so that's gonna be a big theme of the episode as well. Uh, Jason Lannister is going to also be not so subtle in his overtures for Rhaenyra when he comes to talk to Viserys, he has this spear that he is going to hand over. It's a spear for Prince Aegon, it was crafted at Casterly Rock, uh, hopefully, uh, Viserys, you will get to use this in your killing stroke against the White Heart. Um, and he's talking about how I'm, I would be a great husband to Rhaenyra, Casterly Rock is a splendid feat. She could take her place by my side without shame and feel well compensated for her loss in station. And this seems like a really big moment, Hillary, for Viserys of kind of cracking, oh, so people just automatically think I'm going to put my son on the Iron Throne and they have all seemingly forgotten that they've pledged loyalty to my daughter, the heir to the Iron Throne. Hillary Busis: Yeah. Um, and, uh, I, I will say that he is, he is painted generally as being sort of weak sort of, ineffectual. Maybe, maybe that's the, that's not a very charitable reading of him, but that he is sort of, uh, Ned Starky in that he is loyal and maybe not really made for these sorts of machinations because he's just kind of like a standup guy. Um, and doesn't want to kind of get down in the muck in the way that he might have to in order to really succeed. But to his credit, he is, he winds up resisting all of these various, uh, attempts to get him to name Aegon over Rhaenyra, which is actually sort of a surprise. Josh Wigler: I think it is as well. I think it's gonna surprise a lot of people, uh, whether or not it's gonna be- enough, you know, to, to, uh- Hillary Busis: Whether that's a good decision is another conversation. Josh Wigler: Also a conversation and I think also, you know, is this, is this gonna be enough to endear Viserys to, to people who are pretty out on Viserys? I don't, I don't know if that exists on, on this show, but I, I think that this is an episode that shows up a lot more of his, um, his internal thinking and, and, and what's going on inside of him in this and- Hillary Busis: What his version of integrity is also. Josh Wigler: Right. Right. And I, and I think what he's been, what he's been living with. You know, just to, to get a little bit ahead of it, you know, he's going to have this conversation with Otto who says, oh, well, the real match would be to marry Rhaenyra to, to your two year old son. That's gonna solve all the problems. And even Viserys has to crack up at that. He's like, that's ridiculous. Absolutely not. No way. Hillary Busis: And especially just believing aside the absurdity of a two year old getting betrothed or married or whatever, like the timing just also won't work out if you wanna have more heirs. Josh Wigler: Right, right. Um, so he is, uh, you know, we'd have to be very patient, I think, uh, you know. Hillary Busis: It's gonna be a while. Yeah. Josh Wigler: It's gonna be a minute. Uh, another time jump, please. Yeah. Uh, so I don't know how quickly they can order one of those, but Lyonel Strong is, is here to give his take on it as well. He's gonna say, you know, you, you once came to me to, to ask about, uh, this very situation for yourself. I do not think it is too late for you to, to merge houses with House Velaryon, uh, you could marry Rhaenyra to Ser Laenor, or he's of pure Velaryon descent. It would be all of the same reasons that you would've married, uh, uh, his sister, Laena as well. Uh, and Viserys, it seems like he, he takes that for what it's worth, but he just doesn't wanna have this conversation at all anymore. And the next time we see him, he's beside this fire, Alicent shows up, and he's pretty, you know, to the wind at this point. You know, he's been drinking all night long and I think this is where you get his version of the truth. Like what he has been living with these past three and a half years of I had this dream, there is this long tradition of Targaryen who are dreamers, this is how we evaded certain doom in Valyria because we had someone who foresaw that and we left. Um, and Aegon the Conqueror is this dreamer we have learned in this show and Viserys thinks that maybe he is one as well, even though it's very rare within the Targaryen line that he saw this dream of his son born with the conquerors crown. Um, and when his wife died and when his son died, he kind of let go of that dream and also, uh, became very resentful of himself, I think, uh, of being so obsessed, being so focused on that, having to happen because he is so focused on manifesting this vision of his, that he lost sight of so much and his wife is dead and his child is dead and he hoped that Rhaenyra becoming the heir to the Iron Throne would be somewhat helpful in writing a wrong. Um, and not only has that not really taken for him it sounds like, he also, at least in this moment, Hillary, it seems like he is having second thoughts about Rhaenyra coming to the throne. He's looking at Alicent being like, I never thought I would remarry it and I never thought I would have a son. So what if I was wrong about anointing Rhaenyra? And my dream actually was correct. Hillary Busis: Yes. It's a very tortured fireside confession. Josh Wigler: Yeah. Uh, so I don't know. I'm, I'm gonna be really interested to see how, how people are feeling about Viserys after this episode. I think it's, it's revealing at least of his character and his perspective. And I think adding, um, I think adding some, some additional shades to the character that are, that are, are worth bringing into the conversation about this guy and how he is as a ruler and how he is as a person, uh, you know, complicated character, it's _Game of Thrones,_ that's how is is. Hillary Busis: And also, I, I'm curious about how, you know, if, if his vision is in fact a vision or a prophecy and how that kind of plays into what we see going forward. Josh Wigler: Yeah, because objectively the Targaryens have had, uh, prophecies come true. Uh, you know, the, the doom of Valyria, that happens. Uh, the, the White Walker threat absolutely is real. They're just 300 or so years off in their timing. Uh, so is Viserys a dreamer? Did he see something? Uh, I think we'll have to, we'll have to keep watching to see how that bears out. How about how it staggers out, uh, as we are gonna go- Hillary Busis: Oh, that was terrible. Josh Wigler: So, sorry. So sorry. It's not my worst, trust me. Uh, it has gotten a lot worse than that over time, uh, as we are gonna go on the hunt, uh, and we are going to see that the stag that they have been tracking was not the White Heart. It is a very large deer, but it is not the one that is associated with all of this royalty here in the Kingswood. Uh, and I thought that this was such an evocative scene for me. That here you have a Targaryen king using, uh, the weapon of the Lannister house that is going to help bring the Targaryens down, slaying the avatar of House Baratheon that the Lannisters are also going to help bring down. It just brought me back to the Mad King in King Robert, all of this imagery I thought was, uh, was really, really cool in the context of _Game of Thrones_. Hillary Busis: Yeah, totally. Um, and I also was getting shades of, I, I can't remember which season it's from, but, uh, when Catelyn Stark's father dies and he's, uh, go like going down the river on his, like, uh, his funeral barge and her brother is trying to send a fire arrow to it. Josh Wigler: Right. Hillary Busis: But like, can't make the shot. And how Vis- it takes Viserys a couple of ti- a couple of chances or a couple of times to finally kill the stag. Like that also felt, those two scenes kind of felt coupled too in that, like, this is kind of an ineffectual man when all is said and done, even though he's trying his best. Josh Wigler: Yeah. I think like, you know, like sort of like heaving with effort, you know, hung over beyond belief probably, just the- Hillary Busis: And he can't quite get the knife in. Josh Wigler: Yes. Yeah, exactly. I thought I thought it was really, really great. I think, uh, this is, this is a scene that I'll be thinking about a lot, uh, coming out of this episode for sure. Um, meanwhile it turns out we know where the White Heart is because it is by Rhaenyra and Ser Criston. Uh, we kind of yada yada'd past this, there's a boar in the night, uh, that they have to, they have to fight. I don't know. Uh, it's kind of a forgettable moment for me. I don't know if you had any major takes on the, on the boar that comes after Rhaenyra and Criston. Seems like it's just kind of, you know, we need a moment that's exciting at this moment in time in the episode. Hillary Busis: They were like, we have a couple, like we have a budget for another CGI monster, so let's just, let's make it a bit, let's make it a pig. Josh Wigler: We've got like two minutes we could add to the show, if we wanna put a boar in the show. Uh, you know, I guess there's something about, you know, uh, Rhaenyra, uh, was able to survive a boar encounter where Robert Baratheon was not. I don't know if there's anything to, to read into that. Hillary Busis: And we do see her, we do see her in action being a lot more decisive about slaying an animal than her father was. Yeah. You're seeing her streaked in red, right. She is, uh, you know, uh, covered in the blood of her enemy. It kinda like she had, yeah, it kind of looked like she had manic panic at the end with, yeah, the blood of the boar in her hair. Josh Wigler: Yeah. And I, I think, um, not, uh, not for the last time we will see a Targaryen covered in, uh, the gore of their enemy in this episode. So maybe just another day. Hillary Busis: It's the nice thing about the light blonde is that it really shows.... Josh Wigler: It catches the- yeah, really, really good for, uh, for the camera. Uh, but no, here's the White Heart. So this is the one that, uh, that they were all tracking and they were hoping to see, and that it would signal, um, this is a good oman for, uh, anointing Aegon as your heir and instead it's here with Rhaenyra in this moment where Criston is maybe gonna approach it and either scare it off or try to kill it. And instead she tells him to put the sword away and they just share this look and then the stag runs off. Um, I don't know how, how you read this one. Hillary Busis: If they had if they had killed, I wonder if, if they had killed it and hauled it back to the camp, would that have convinced anybody that she is in fact, the rightful air and maybe they could have all left her alone a little bit. Josh Wigler: So this is maybe a moment where mercy was the wrong way to go. Hillary Busis: Well, if you're being cynical. Josh Wigler: Yes. Uh, well, it's _Game of Thrones_. Hillary Busis: Which nobody on _Game of Thrones_ ever is. Josh Wigler: Yeah. Very, very upbeat, very optimistic show, just super positive all the time. Hillary Busis: Really things that at heart people are good. Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm, yeah. At their core, uh, humans fundamentally, uh, just, uh, really care about each other quite a bit, more than anything else. So, no, they, they let it go, but it's, it's this it's at least it's this private moment, uh, for Rhaenyra to be acknowledged by this stag. It is witnessed by no one else other than Ser Criston, and, uh, you know, um, what to take from that moving forward. I've I've really, I latched onto that. I think that this is, uh, this is something that, uh, many, many, many of mind should be, should be thinking about as you're trying to puzzle out what's next on _House of the Dragon_. I really enjoyed that scene quite a bit. Um, they come back to the camp, uh, they bring the pig back, that's exciting, but it's kind of an awkward homecoming. We don't really get to see the immediate aftermath, uh, of her being back, uh, in no time at all. We are back in King's Landing in fact and we have yet another one of these scenes. It seems mandatory at this point, Hillary, that we have to have a scene every episode of Otto being a super creep with his daughter. Uh, you know, just a private moment with Otto and Alicent of him really putting the pressure on her of, okay, so you've married the king, you have procreated with the king and now you have a son with the king and that sun shall also be the king and everything's gonna be great. And Alicent's like, I'm not so sure that that's the direction that this is going to go in. Uh, Rhaenyra would be a really good queen by the way. And Otto is really stepping in, uh, because the patriarchy needs some defense at this moment in time, Hillary. Otto really has to come and back up his boy. Hillary Busis: Yeah. It's really in danger of crumbling at any moment if they don't nip this threat in the bud. Josh Wigler: Yeah. It's the law of God's and men for a reason, under- triple underlying men there, Alicent, come on. So he's really, you know, laying it on pretty thick. Uh, and he's saying Viserys will listen to reason, but he'll never find reason on his own. You need to guide him. So, uh, I think getting this verbalized from Otto, the way that he kind of really feels about the king, not that it was hard to pick up on, again, not quite the master of subtlety, uh, Otto Hightower, I think helpful at the very least to get that out there in language, on the show, he does not seem to have a ton of respect for Viserys as a decision maker. Hillary Busis: Oh yeah. For, for sure. He is, he's a Jafar figure. Josh Wigler: Oh yeah, no doubt. I hope he has a music number by the end of, uh, by the end of this one, when he sends Maegor's Hold up into the air and sent it to the end of the. Um, Alicent's gonna come to Viserys and instead of talking to him about, uh, how their child together should be the heir to the Iron Throne, she instead pushes Viserys towards a different decision, uh, that she is going to, you know, see that he has received a letter from, uh, the Stepstones and how the war is going very poorly. And she is basically gonna say, why are you leaving your brother out on the lurch? Uh, I know that you don't wanna, you know, you're, you're not in a great place with Daemon. I know that you feel like it would be weak to go back on, uh, you haven't supported the war up to this point, but is it better for the realm if the Crabfeeder is still alive or is it better for the realm if the Crabfeeder is dead. And Viserys says, that's a great point, I'm going to send help. Uh, so Alicent is showing up to guide Viserys towards a decision, it's just completely different from anything that Otto has in mind for her. So I, I thought that this was a really compelling moment from Alicent as a character. One of her first real acts as queen that we've gotten to see. Hillary Busis: Yeah. And it's, uh, I think it's a more interesting choice to not make her this like very conniving, uh, figure. That she does have loyalty to her friend, that she is not just kind of looking out for herself and her family's interests. Um, we've, you know, there are plenty of characters like that in this universe. Um, and I don't know, you would maybe expect a, a girl who kind of maneuvered into becoming queen to be that way. Um, but she isn't. Josh Wigler: No, um, she is not. So she is, uh, guiding Viserys towards that decision. Uh, when we next see Viserys he is at the Small Council. He is finalizing the details of that. He's going to be sending, uh, I think we hear 2000 men, he's gonna be sending to the Stepstones who are going to be very confused when they get there in a few weeks and find out that the Crabfeeders just been decapitated already. So, uh, like all this travel for nothing? Do we still get paid? Uh, so Viserys is gonna talk to Rhaenyra here instead, and they're gonna kind of, uh, recap their journeys through this episode and, and try to, you know, find a bridge between their two perspectives. And he is effectively going to tell her, I know that you think that I am passing you over. I am not, but you do need to get married. Uh, you must marry, he says, strengthen your own claim, shore up your succession, multiply, uh, as to your match, make it yourself, search him out. Find one that pleases you as I did. Um, so he is, uh, leaving her with the marching orders of it's... you need to get married if you're going to secure your claim to the Iron Throne, but don't let me force the match upon you. You get to, to pick yourself. Hillary Busis: Which I guess feels like, you know, a compromise that one could live with. Josh Wigler: It's better than coming to her and being like, so listen, you're gonna marry your two year old brother. Hillary Busis: Certainly better than that. Uh, if these are, if these are the two options. Josh Wigler: Look, if you want to marry your two year old brother, that's between you and your two year old brother, but I am not gonna force that on you. Won't be me. Hillary Busis: Oh man. I, I don't know who would, who would choose a two year old. I mean, you would be, you'd be cleaning up after him a lot. Josh Wigler: Um, tough deal, tough deal. Uh, he does tell her, he says, uh, you're not totally wrong. He says, I, I did waiver at one time, but I swear to you now on your mother's memory, you will not be supplanted. So how are you taking this from Viserys, Hillary? He is pretty declaratively telling Rhaenyra in this moment of the two of them together alone, you're the heir to the Iron Throne. You are my choice to sit on this thing when I am gone and I'm not changing my mind. I almost did, I'm not doing it, you're the heir. Hillary Busis: I mean, unless something changes dramatically, um, I, I, it certainly sounds like he thinks this is what's gonna happen. I mean, uh, there's still the matter of his, uh, rapidly putrifying flesh that we didn't really get very much into this episode. Josh Wigler: You think that got any better in these three years in this time jump? Hillary Busis: I think that generally speaking in the middle ages, uh, medicine worked and, they, they knew what to do and with time ailments got better. Josh Wigler: Between that and time healing all wounds, I feel like, uh, we should be out of the woods on this one. Hillary Busis: Oh yeah. He's gonna live a long and happy life. I have no doubt. Josh Wigler: No question about it. Um, so that's the end of their storyline, but then we get to this really big final action sequence of the episode. We returned to the Stepstones, there's this big dispute about how it's a lost cause, and Daemon is leading us into, into a certain doom. Uh, and then the King's message arrives and Daemon reads the letter and he does not like what he hears. He does not like the offer of help at all. I think he's here because he wants to, whether he wants to prove something to, to his brother or to himself, Hillary, I think he, he does not want this war to be ended due to circumstances that are beyond his calling. Uh, so he is really- Hillary Busis: Men would literally, yeah- men would literally turn down 2000 ships and attack the Crabfeeder on their own, then go to therapy. Josh Wigler: Yes, that's right. Uh, so he is going to skip his therapy appointment and instead go alone, uh, straight to the Crabfeeder's doorstep, uh, sword in hand, flag in hand, he is going to draw a bunch of the Crabfeeders men to him. Tons of archers watching from the distance ready to go, and I don't know, were you surprised that then Daemon just decides to basically do this thing? He's like, okay, I'm just gonna go one versus 4,000 right now. This is fine. Hillary Busis: Yeah, certainly... I mean, it's, it's what I guess a rash and a bold warrior, man, it's not out of character, maybe. Um, it's a little, it's a little, uh, insane that he manages to avoid somehow any kind of major injury, um, when he's the only person against an entire army, but you know, it's Matt Smith. I didn't think he was gonna die this soon in the season. Josh Wigler: I had to, I had to do some math here and I had to watch this a couple of times because I just, I needed to make sure I got this right. So it's about 55 minutes and 42 seconds into the episode when the fighting starts, uh, during the scene. Uh, and in between that and 57 minutes and around 19 seconds, that's when Daemon gets, uh, shot with a couple of arrows and his run is ended. He kills 16 people in that period of time. Uh, 16 individuals, he at least makes, uh, extreme physical contact with, if not all the way kills. That's so- Hillary Busis: And no dragon, just him and a sword. Josh Wigler: Just him and Dark Sister. Uh, a great, uh, you know, uh, ancestral Valyrian sword that people are really excited about being here on the show. It's just him and his sword and that's it. And he takes down, uh, it's either 15 or 16. I couldn't confirm the 16th kill, Hillary, but I think that it's 16 people that he takes down before he is shot by arrows. And it is, uh, it is, it is wild. Uh, it is a, it is a very wild scene and eventually he's joined in the fight by, uh, by all of his allies. We see, uh, uh, we see the, the arrival of Sea Smoke, uh, a new dragon to the show that we have not seen previously here. Uh, this is, uh, this is Lord Laenor's uh, dragon Ser Laenor, my apologies. Uh, this is his dragon, uh, that we are seeing not for the last time I am sure. Uh, and that fire power and the arrival of the Sea Snake and everybody fuels Daemon with enough time to, I guess, uh, either quickly heal from, or at the very least, uh, ignore the three arrows, uh, imbued within his body to go and chase down the Crabfeeder and just end this thing off screen, uh, to- Hillary Busis: Yeah and just cut him in half. Josh Wigler: That's how you do it, I guess, uh, every once in a while. Hillary Busis: Yeah, if you've been to Baltimore, you know, that that's how you eat a crab. Josh Wigler: That's how you- is that right? I've been doing it wrong. Uh, so yeah, he comes back covered in Crabfeeder guts, and the war is over and that's it. That's not just, uh, the episode, but that's the war in the Stepstones. Much a do about, uh, crabs, I suppose. Hillary Busis: Yeah. I can't say I am sorry to see... I sure hope that that's the end. Um, I can't say I'm sorry to see it go. I am curious about what this means for Daemon now. Um, yeah, there was, there was a lot of hay made in the first episode about how none of these men have ever seen war, um, because there's been peace for so long. So I wonder if this, uh, this fight is going to change the way that people act in their, you know, civilian lives. Josh Wigler: Yeah, I think, I think that the, like the aftermath of this is probably the most important part of it. Daemon has, uh, you know, is, is presumably going to emerge from this in a fairly legendary capacity. I think the, the, the stories that could be told of what he did here in the Stepstones are probably gonna travel far and wide. And, uh, I don't even know how you exaggerate what he did because we saw what he did. And uh, I don't know. I don't know how you tell a taller tail than what actually literally happened. Um, but I think that the aftermath of that and what does this do for, um, the Sea Snake and his relationship to the throne, considering that Viserys was at the very least willing to send help, that he almost did, is that gonna move the needle on their relationship at all? I think it is, it is all of the, the following action from the, from the war in the Stepstones that's gonna fuel what comes next rather than the war in the Stepstones itself being the major thing. I don't- Hillary Busis: That and uh, Laenor on that dragon looked pretty cool, so I feel like Rhaenyra should probably consider him again. Even though he was her cousin. Josh Wigler: If only she'd been there, you know, uh, to, to see it herself. Uh, but yeah, uh, Laenor was, was pretty awesome, uh, on that day and Seas Smoke looked great. That was, that was really fun to, to see, uh, yet another dragon in action. So we had to wait three weeks to see dragons in battle, but we got two dragon battles for the price of one. Uh, so pretty exciting stuff. Hillary, we've got some feedback from the _Still Watching _listeners. Of course, you can send your feedback in stillwatchingpod@gmail.com. Um, the first question we got, Hillary, uh, this was from, from Bridget. Um, Bridget had written in and said, if females are a big part of this series, I find it odd there are no female Co-EP's with Miguel Sapochnik and Ryan Condal. _Game of Thrones_ showcased a lot of female directors, so I find it odd that this show wouldn't continue that trend, especially if women are going to be the main focus. Um, I think that this email came our way, Hillary, before the news dropped this week, really explosive, surprising news that Miguel Sapochnik who is a longtime veteran of the _Game of Thrones_ franchise has helmed so many of the most notable, uh, episodes of _Game of Thrones_ from "Hardhome" to, uh, "The Battle of the Bastards," "The Winds of Winter," and yes, even the one you couldn't see The Long Night," uh, was a, a co-showrunner on season one of _House of the Dragon,_ directed numerous episodes of the season. He has walked away, uh, from those responsibilities will not be returning for season two. Uh, so he has left, there is just Ryan Condal left as showrunner with George R.R. Martin as Executive Producer. Did you, were you surprised by this, this, I mean, I don't, that's a dumb question, Hillary. It was very surprising news. I don't know how you're not surprised, but- Hillary Busis: Oh yeah. It's, it's a hugely surprising thing to hear, especially coming on the heels of how successful the show has been so far. How it's broken records and, you know, got renewed. I mean, I guess there wasn't any question really that it would get renewed, but that it got renewed right away, that the numbers have been so good. It, it does seem reading the reports about, uh, why he's stepping away that perhaps Miguel Sapochnik was, is just exhausted because it's very difficult and, uh, cumbersome to make a show like this. Which, you know, and after years of development and everything, like, I, I feel like, I don't know if it seems like there's anything like weird going on behind the scenes that we don't know about. I can very much understand if it's just like, this is an enormous undertaking and I wanna focus on something else. I don't know. What, what was your impression of kind of like between the lines, I guess? Josh Wigler: My, my feeling was very much in line with this idea of take a nap, man. You've done a lot, you know, you've done so much, uh, for, for this franchise that I, I think, uh, you know, a lot of the reporting leading up to _House of the Dragon_, even interviews with Miguel Sapochnik there was the big sprawling _Hollywood Reporter _profile on the making of the show. Uh, that I think Miguel Sapochnik was pretty clear that this wasn't an easy yes for, for him to come back at all. I think specifically "The Long Night" episode of the final season of _Game of Thrones_, in addition to being, you know, kind of ruthlessly received by a lot of people, whether fairly or unfairly, depending on your complaints, uh, was just grueling to make. Uh, and it's only been a few years since that episode aired and much sooner since, you know, Miguel Sapochnik has called back to Westeros to start making episodes again. Um, so I think that this is a pretty all encompassing job. Uh, when you are in a showrunner capacity here on _House of the Dragon_, when you were directing, uh, shows within a _Game of Thrones_, uh, TV series, um, that I, I, it is hard for me to, to not sympathize with the person who's like, I don't think I need to be doing this anymore. Hillary Busis: Yeah. If you're not, if you're not feeling all in, then why put yourself through it? Josh Wigler: And, you know, I, I think that HBO, uh, simultaneously announcing that Alan Taylor, who has directed a ton of _Game of Thrones_ in the past is returning to the franchise, I, I feel like it, it, it, I received it sort of as a, well, don't worry. We've got, you know, we've got another really familiar director who, who is coming back. He directed "Baylor," a bunch of other episodes, uh, has killed so many people on HBO in the past, so he is right at home here. Um, like that's great. I'm, I'm excited. This, this episode, uh, was, uh, was directed by, uh, Greg Yaitanes, uh, I hope I'm pronouncing his name correctly. Uh, who has, uh, directed a ton of television, has directed a few of my favorite episodes of_ Lost_, uh, was, was very excited to see how involved he was in this show, and he directed last week as well, very cinematic episodes of the show. So I feel like Sapochnik's contributions are still gonna continue to be felt here. Um, and I'm, I'm excited about, about that. Uh, as far as the directors here at the very least in season one of _House of the Dragon,_ we will be seeing episodes from Clare Kilner coming up as well. Uh, Geeta Vasant Patel is also coming up. So, uh, that's episodes 4, 5, 8, 9, who are going to be coming from, uh, two non-male, uh, directors. So I don't know if that is, uh, if that's sufficient, uh, certainly, you know, we've got a long way to go still. Um, but, uh, to that point... Hillary Busis: I am a little curious, yeah, if, if Miguel Sapochnik's departure does make any more room kind of in a trickle down way or in a more, you know, overt way for another female producer. I mean, just given the, given the conversation about violence against women and you know, the birth scene and everything from like the get go here, which seems to maybe have caught the show by surprise a little bit. Josh Wigler: Like it, it definitely feels that way. Hillary Busis: Yeah. It wouldn't, it wouldn't be a, it wouldn't be a bad thing to have more non men at the top. Josh Wigler: I would've, I would've been pretty excited if that announcement came, you know, hand in hand with something like Michelle MacLaren is going to be involved. Hillary Busis: Right. Josh Wigler: She had directed _Game of Thrones_, previous episodes, you know, like that, that would be really, really exciting. But I, I think to your point, especially if being caught a little by surprise. I think a lot of the criticism about that scene. In the first episode, we got a, a good amount of feedback about that actually, Hillary, uh, Amelia had written in with thoughts about that, katherine had written in with thoughts about that. Um, Katherine's point, just to distill it, uh, was the, the scene gave me a sense that the show is trying to be about feminism, but may not be in touch with its female audience. And I'm quote unquote, still watching. Uh, I love the complicated characters they're already setting up and the dragons look so cool, but it was a really cringy moment for me, um, that I think a lot of the, the reactions from the people involved with the show have been drawing, uh, a fair share of criticism here. Um, being your first appearance here on the podcast, Hillary, I don't know if you had, uh, any strong takes about the C-section scene from the first episode, the way that violence towards women, both, you know, literal physical violence, emotional and institutional violence, how that's being depicted, how that's living with you? Hillary Busis: Well, it is probably a valid data point to note right now that I happen to be nine months pregnant. Josh Wigler: Yes, that's right. Hillary Busis: And so given that, um- Josh Wigler: I do not envy having to edit materials surrounding this show and reading into it and everything. I always dread sending you a recap, Hillary. Hillary Busis: I was, I was warned ahead of time that it was going to be there. If I hadn't known it was coming, I think I would've been pretty upset, I will say that. It's, it's a tough scene to watch and yeah, I mean, I, I think I agree with what some of our listeners have said that, you know, it had good intentions, um, but sort of felt still felt like it wasn't really, it wasn't really necessary. Like, did we have to see everything we saw, did we have to hear her tortured screams? Like, I don't know, kind of, kind of made me think back to, you know, Sansa's rape on _Game of Thrones_, um, where it kind of felt like they were trying to, the show was trying to skirt criticism by not showing it, by showing it, but like keeping the camera trained on Theon watching her instead. But then of course, the complaint is, well, why is it about him? So it's, it's so it's, it's tricky. It's not like there's really a right way to show these things, and I guess the effort to show them, to show women suffering in different ways is in some ways admirable, um, that at least we're not kind of seeing the same sorts of violence that it's, it's making a point that, you know, every day, their everyday lives are just kind of filled with these, you know, this potential for tragedy at every turn. But like, I do think that the point can probably be made without being as graphic, at least as that scene was. Josh Wigler: Yeah, absolutely agreed. Um, this came our way from, from Mickey. Um, we had last week on the podcast, Richard and I had put out the call for what everyone was thinking about Viserys and Alicent, uh, as a new couple here, the new it couple in Westeros. What they were- Hillary Busis: Power couple. Josh Wigler: Yeah, I suppose. And, and what they were thinking about the, the power dynamics within that specifically. Uh, and so this came, uh, to our, our, our feed from, from Mickey. Mickey wrote in and said, I had thoughts about King Viserys and Alicent. In your discussion on the podcast, you wondered if Alicent was on board with the romance with king. In my point of view, as a female, my impression from both episodes is that the decision to continue to befriend the king and have these secret conversations was all to obey her father. In episode two, her father asks her if she will still visit the king that evening, and her response is very unenthusiastic, if you wish me to. She picks her nails constantly when with the, when the king is even, um, saying all the things he wants to hear, I'm pretty sure she reports each encounter to her father afterwards. I think the king has affection for Alicent, but as far as she's concerned, I see no love or Stockholm Syndrome, just a daughter obeying her dad's skeesy orders to sleep with someone so that her family could gain some power. Um, so we are on the other side, obviously of episode two, we are three years on the other side of episode two, believe it or not. Hillary, how did this episode move things forward for you at all regarding Alicent now that we have her at the age of 17, now that we have her as the mother of Viserys's child, in addition to, to being the queen? Are you reading her any differently than you read her in episodes one and two? Hillary Busis: Yeah. I mean, I think her decision to not push for Aegon, but to push for Viserys to send aid to Daemon, um, feels, felt like, you know, kind of a big decisive moment for her stepping out from under what her father wants and being a queen on her own terms. Like she's clearly been forced into this position. I don't think that there's any question that she wanted to marry her, her friend's father when she was 15. Um, but it seems like she's starting to figure out a way to navigate this position in a way like her, you know, on her own terms. Josh Wigler: One last one for you. This is about a character who wasn't in this episode, but I would love to get your take on, uh, this is from Brandon. Brandon said, my question is regarding Princess Rhaenys. Uh, do you all think there's a conflict between the king and her husband? That if, if, if there is that she would stay loyal to the Targaryens or would she choose her husband's side or possibly use the conflict as her chance to take another shot at the Iron Throne? Curious on your thoughts. She's the most interesting character to me so far. Raising a glass to The Queen that Never Was .Uh, Hillary, are you vibing with The Queen That Never Was the way that I feel like the _House of the Dragon_ internet is vibing with The Queen That Never Was? Hillary Busis: Oh yeah. For sure. Josh Wigler: Seems like a real crowd favorite so far. Hillary Busis: Yeah. I wanna, I wanna see more of her. I wanna know more of her whole deal. I think it's too soon to really tell. Uh, but I'm definitely interested in definitely keeping an eye on her. Yeah. Josh Wigler: Yeah. She's great. Uh, she's, she's terrific and I think a very exciting character that they have, uh, they've done a really good job with in the limited use of her so far, but I'm, I'm really curious to see how she continues to shake out as she continues to be involved in the series. That's gonna do it for us on _Still Watching_ this week. Uh, as a reminder, we would love to hear from you stillwatchingpod@gmail.com is our email address, stillwatchingpod@gmail.com. Write in any thoughts that you have about episode three, predictions for the rest of the season, we would love to hear all of that from you out there. Um, Hillary, uh, thank you so much for being on here. This was really, really fun for me. I'm so glad that we got the chance to do this. Hillary Busis: Yeah, me too, before I disappear into the night. Josh Wigler: Yes, absolutely. Uh, well, before you disappear into the night, where can folks find you on the internet? Hillary Busis: Uh, they can find me on Twitter @hillibuster. It's a pun. Josh Wigler: Uhhuh. I like it. Very, very good. Hillary Busis: I thought you might. Josh Wigler: Uh, I love it. Um, okay, well you could find me, I am on Twitter @roundhoward. I am of course, here at vf.com each and every week recapping _House of the Dragon_, including next week. We will return to discuss episode four of this series until then everybody take care. Bye bye.