Josh Wigler: Hello, and welcome back to _Still Watching_ the television podcast from _Vanity Fair_. We cover entire seasons of the hottest shows of television and right now we are diving deep into the hottest one of them, all _House of the Dragon_, the _Game of Thrones_ prequel series on HBO. I'm Josh Wigler and to discuss _House of the Dragon_ episode four with me today while Richard Lawson remains away on assignment, I am joined by _Vanity Fair_ Awards and Audio Editor, Katey Rich. Katey, welcome to Westeros.

Katey Rich: Hi Josh. I feel like I've been, uh, lurking behind the scenes, um, somewhere behind your Iron Throne this whole season and now I get to emerge into the light. 

Josh Wigler: There are a lot of secret passageways as we are coming to learn, uh, which still lurk on podcast conversations, I guess. 

Katey Rich: I have some questions about those secret passageways. We'll get there. 

Josh Wigler: Well, unfortunately I also have questions, so I don't know how, how, how well I'm gonna be able to answer any of them. But yeah, lots of secret tunnels and hallways and rooms and they're loud doors too. I have a lot of questions about Ser Criston Cole's hearing. Uh, I feel like maybe he should have heard some of the, uh, some of the noise that's happening here in this episode, in "King of the Narrow Sea" episode four. 

Katey Rich: He's supposed to be the good knight here and yet, uh, some major flaws in his skills.

Josh Wigler: Well, this could be an issue, Katey, is that Criston was, uh, he was brought into the King's Guard specifically because he had combat experience whereas the rest of these would be knights, uh, did not have that level of combat experience. Is it possible that his hearing was impacted uh, during some of these wars. 

Katey Rich: This is a good point. Those swords and shields clinging together are very loud. We should be worried about him. 

Josh Wigler: Very loud clanging. Yeah, for sure. Um, so we are gonna recap episode four, "King of the Narrow Sea" today, uh, yet, uh, another really eventful episode of the show. One I'm really excited to get into from the book perspective. We were talking offline before, before we started this, Katey, that I think that there's, there's some stuff that happens in this one that as somebody who read _Fire and Blood,_ the George R.R. Martin book that this show is based on, I was anticipating, quasi dreading how some of this was going to, to happen on the show. I think you can tell people as many times as you want that this is the Targaryen show, expect some degree of Targaryen, on Targaryen romance to occur. Um, but I was really, really curious, slash nervous to see how it was going to play out on screen. There's some book deviations here for sure and that's kind of baked into the text in, into the text to begin with. I'm curious, Katey, just to get your take on this episode, but also just how _House of the Dragon_ is rolling out so far for you?

Katey Rich: Yeah, I definitely have not forgotten the moment in our first episode, or maybe even the preview where, you know, you tell Richard like, yeah, there might be something else going on between, uh, them other than a niece and uncle typical relationship. Um, and I think they've been setting that up to the point that when you see them wandering into this, um, very dimly lit brothel alley area, you're like, oh, I, I see what this has all been leading toward. 

Josh Wigler: We're _Game of Thrones-ing_ now.

Katey Rich: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But also, like, I feel like one of the things that struck me about this episode is a lot of stuff I don't think would've happened in _Game of Thrones_. I think the way that the sex was handled is something we should really talk about and how it's different from it, but just the world of the small folk in King's Landing and what we see from them. Like, I just don't remember that kind of texture being in original _Game of Thrones_ and maybe I'm not remembering it as well. I didn't get to re-watch anything, but I really liked how much of this episode just felt different, like its own show. 

Josh Wigler: Well, I think that the closest comp that I could, I could give and we're, we're jumping ahead. We'll go through it scene by scene for sure, but I think about, um, I thought a lot about Arya Stark in this episode. You know, Rhaenyra going, literally they're calling her boy, uh, very reminiscent of Arya's journey in the, the latest stages of season one and, and so much of the rest of her story through the show, but she's really the character that really readily comes to mind for me as somebody who ever has eyes on these kinds of situations. So many of the other characters on _Game of Thrones,_ and even here, of course, on, on _House of the Dragon_ are the most powerful of powerful elites. You know, either you are, um, on the Iron Throne or really Iron Throne adjacent, or you come from a great noble house, like House Stark. And I think that the ability to, to live in King's Landing with everybody else and to go to Flea Bottom and go to the, the, the Street of Silk and, and all of this stuff that we do get to see in this episode, there just weren't those opportunities in, in a major way, on _Game of Thrones_. And I really enjoyed luxuriating in that. Luxuriating is the wrong word, but I really, I really enjoyed-

Katey Rich: No, it definitely is there. 

Josh Wigler: I really enjoyed spending time there for sure in this one. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. Yeah. I just... as we were going through it, I kind of didn't know what was gonna happen next, even though I kind of did and I was so intrigued to see all, all of this new stuff. 

Josh Wigler: Um, so of course, uh, we've got feedback this week as well. We always wanna be hearing from you out there in _Still Watching_ listener land. You can write in stillwatchingpod@gmail.com. I wanted to bring this one in early, Katey. Uh, we'd gone an email from, from Jason who had a lot to say about the, the age disparity between Alicent and Viserys and everything that's going on there. We're definitely gonna be getting into that as we go through the recap. One note from Jason that I, that I thought was really relevant to this episode specifically, uh, Jason said that overall, I think the show is excellent. I don't understand this expectation that every single episode is going to be "Hard Home" or "The Long Night" or "The Battle of the Bastards." It makes no sense to have nonstop action in every single scene of every single episode and I hope that's not gonna be a complaint on all of the different podcasts going forward of which there are many _House of the Dragon_ podcasts, guilty as charged. 

Katey Rich: Indeed. 

Josh Wigler: Um, Katey, this is a, I don't know if you wanna call this a, a slower episode, but it's certainly more character centric, right? Last week we got this huge eight minute sweeping battle at the end of "Second of His Name." This is not that. Uh, this is, this is, you know, battles of a different variety are being, uh, uh, waged here in week four of _House of the Dragon_. Did you feel any sort of, um, noticeable change in quality with the change of pace? Are you one of the people who is watching _House of the Dragon_ waiting for things to just explode in _Fire and Blood_ in every single scene?

Katey Rich: Yeah, I really liked the, the crab battle. I don't know what, what are we calling it? Is there, is there a technical name for last week's battle scene? 

Josh Wigler: I think it was the War of the Stepstones. 

Katey Rich: Oh, okay. 

Josh Wigler: I think I, The Crab Defeater. I don't know Hillary wasn't loving the pun, so I'm trying to hold it back this time around. 

Katey Rich: For, for shame. No, I really like the character aspect of it. Like I like how these relationships got really complicated. I think with, with Viserys and Daemon, and then Viserys and Otto as the episode gets to its end, we're getting to a point where we know these characters enough, so it's not just like, this is Viserys. He likes Otto. Or this is Viserys, he and his brother don't like each other, right. There's shades to these relationships now and especially with Rhaenyra and Alicent. Um, I think that really develops here. Um, and so getting to spend time with these characters, even like, Ser Criston, who, you know, has just been kinda like the hunky knight this whole time. Like he kind of grows as a character. Um, and I get that, you know, you go into the show for the dragons. There are dragons in this episode. Um, but I think you need that. I, especially for like a show that's gonna grow up and we're gonna swap out our young actors at some point in the near future, um, I think we really needed this time to spend with them and watch them grow a little bit.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, I think so as well. Um, so we have a lot to focus on with all of the various progressions for all of the various characters on this show. We're gonna do that scene by scene on the other side of this quick break, stay tuned. All right, Katey, we are back and, and when we return, when we begin this episode, this I know is something that is very exciting for the deep cut Westerosy, uh, nerds. We got to check out Storm's End, and this is the seat of House Baratheon and we have never been here before. Uh, this is- 

Katey Rich: Oh, that's why there were all those furs. Okay. 

Josh Wigler: It was, it was really cool to, to go and hang out in, uh, in the, the place that Bobby B is going to call his home for so much of his life before going on to King's Landing. Um, I was really excited about this. This was a surprise to me. A lot of what we're seeing here at the start of this episode is Rhaenyra is on the tour, right? You know, she's going around to see all of the different suitors that her father is lining up for her. He has said you get to pick, but I guess the caveat of that was you get to pick among the crop of people that I am throwing your way.

Katey Rich: Among the, like the, not the drags of society yet, but, uh, no, one's super promising in that lineup I don't think. 

Josh Wigler: I mean, it's a, it's a pretty wide age range. You have, you know, uh, the old man and the young boy, I guess we should be grateful that no two year olds were thrust forward here, Katey. 

Katey Rich: Uh, yeah, that's, that's true. We've already crossed that line. Two year old brothers, or half brothers for that matter. 

Josh Wigler: Yeah. 

Katey Rich: Uh, you know, that kid, uh, who winds up in the sword fight at the end, he's going places. Like I, you know, don't marry him yet, but I keep your eye on him. 

Josh Wigler: Maybe not. Um, this was, this was something, I mean, fun is a very weird word to use when applying to two children fighting each other with swords and one of them goring the other. Uh, but it, it was fun for me because this is, this is a little piece that is taken out of _Fire and Blood_. So I, I think that the way that this was conveyed, Katey was, uh, I think that they selected one scene to be representative of this year long tour, essentially, uh, that Rhaenyra embarks on to go and see all these people that, that might be suitable for her as, um, as her as her match. Uh, and in the book, uh, you, you get to this moment where she goes to the Trident, a, a different region here than the storm lands. And, uh, Martin writes the sons of Lord Bracken and Lord Blackwood fought a dual over her and that's the sentence, that's it. Um, and this was like the thing that I feel like Ryan Condal and Miguel Sapochnik and the rest of the people behind season one, at least of _House of the Dragon_. Like that's a great passage, let's adapt that and turn it into a moment, and it turns into this really horrific moment where this boy who is being publicly mocked by this kid off the side. 

Katey Rich: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Just engages in this sword fight with this guy, and, um, it's another, uh, Baratheon stabbed in the belly. 

Katey Rich: Yeah, but it's also like, it could have been turned into this like whole huge joust scene, like what we had in the, in the first episode. And I kind of like that. It's like, she's just like, I'm outta here. I'm walking away from this. It's, it's nice texture in the world without having to take up a ton of time. 

Josh Wigler: What I thought, what was interesting about it too, is that, um, it does play as you know, there's, there's the clanging of the swords that, uh, Criston Cole probably can't even hear that's happening in the background just past his shoulder and we are not being, um, you know, treated to really viewing that to, to your point, until the final note, until things have just escalated to this horrific level where this, this poor kid who was, you know, being pretty terrible a few minutes earlier, but still, this is horrible to watch him just on his back, coughing up blood and we're gone. And I think the fact that the camera's not really lingering on it too, too much, and that Rhaenyra, herself doesn't even seem to, you know, uh, doesn't even seem to really be talking about it too much afterwards. 

Katey Rich: Does not care, could not care less.

Josh Wigler: I think it's like a little bit of, so this is the impact of what happens because you know, I am, uh, I am in this seat of power and I'm this highly coveted person because of my station. She has this line later in the episode of, uh, I'm I'm paraphrasing, but I would like a night off from being the princess. Just one night. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. 

Josh Wigler: One night to be free from the burden of my responsibility. But I think that the way that plays in, in this scene where she's just like, get me out of the bloody room, uh, I thought, uh, I thought I thought was really thematic. I thought was really, really good. 

Katey Rich: Well, and I think they're doing a good job of having some characters remind her that she's being a little bit of a baby about all this. Like, oh poor, you, you get to choose a husband. Like not everyone gets that, right. Not everyone lives in a palace, but you still feel for her. Like, obviously she doesn't just, she doesn't wanna get married off. Um, but I like that they're striking a balance there of being aware that she's in this very privileged position for this world. 

Josh Wigler: Um, so when we, when we get to our next scene, she is on, um, she's on the, on the water sailing back to King's Landing. We're gonna hear through this episode that this has been, you know, quite the process. It seems like yet another big time jump has occurred between episodes, Katey. It's about a year since we last left _House of the Dragon._ How are you feeling about flying through time? There's a big, big topic of conversation these days with what's going on, on _House of the Dragon._

Katey Rich: Yeah. I, I mean, I, the, the time jumps don't bother me too much. It doesn't feel like too much has changed each time. I was curious where Ser Criston says there's only two months left and I wasn't clear on two months of what? Like, is there a deadline for her to pick a husband at this point? 

Josh Wigler: Oh, that's a good question. Uh, I don't, I don't know, maybe? It could be, it could be that King Viserys is like, okay, you could pick whoever you want. It's gotta be from this group and you have until X date. 

Katey Rich: Uh, I mean, you gotta give a deadline to get someone to make a decision sometimes, I get it. 

Josh Wigler: I'm a very deadline driven person myself, so I totally understand it. Um, so as she is sailing in, and she's wondering, is she gonna, you know, is she gonna run into a very enraged version of her father when she gets home because of how she's rejecting all of these suitors. We're gonna see that, um, King Viserys at the very least for the short term is going to have, uh, a bigger issue to contend with as Daemon Targaryen makes his triumphant return to King's Landing flying on Caraxes and just, uh, making a whole dramatic to do about it.

Katey Rich: So it's been a year since he won this whole battle, but they haven't seen him since then. 

Josh Wigler: Right. So he has been, um, if it's going based on the book and the fact that he walks into the throne room in the very next scene and he is wearing, um, you know, this crown that he has and how he has been anointed, he's the titular king of the Narrow Sea. Uh, and that he has been, um, he has been given that honorific at the, you know, at the site of his war. Um, in the, in the book, the, the conflict is still kind of playing out the fact that the Crabfeeder was handled, doesn't mean that it's all completely over. 

Katey Rich: Sure. 

Josh Wigler: He spends some time there still and is sort of ruling over his little fiefdom here. It's like a very, uh, shotily run little kingdom that he has built out here in the Stepstones. Feels like they're yada yada-ing past a lot of that for Daemon. They're yada yada-ing through a decent amount of Daemon story in this episode, actually. Um, and this was one of the ways where it felt like, yeah, maybe I guess he's been there for a year, he's been, he says that they've, um, they've nailed 2000 dead triarchy Corsairs to the stakes to the shame. 

Katey Rich: Sure did. They sure did say that. 

Josh Wigler: That's gonna take a year I feel like. That's a lot of hammering to be done. 2000 people feels like a year, sounds about right to me. 

Katey Rich: Yep. He also had time for that, uh, chic haircut, which I think might be the best indication of the passage of time. Um, I'm a fan of the haircut. 

Josh Wigler: I imagine it's because he had so much Crabfeeder guts in his hair that they had to shave him all the way. 

Katey Rich: Uh, that was he... I mean, he had pink hair at the end of the last episode, so you have to start over again. 

Josh Wigler: Might be why he needed the year. He needed like a respectable level of hair to grow back, uh, before he could show back up.

Katey Rich: Um, yeah. 

Josh Wigler: Yeah, but he comes back, he's got, you know, a little bit of a different swagger and I think when he walks into the throne room, everyone is very nervous here. 

Katey Rich: Yes. 

Josh Wigler: Uh, no one really knows that this is gonna go. Very famously Daemon and Viserys have fallen out. Um, certainly all of Viserys's advisors know this, you imagine that a lot of the gossip has been, oh gosh, this guy. Uh, and when he shows up wearing this crown, there is sort of the everybody's holding their breath in the room. He eventually takes his knee. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. You're waiting for war to break out, right? 

Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm yeah. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. So, okay. So yeah. Sorry. I keep interrupting you, but like, I really didn't expect him to take the knee. Like nothing up to this point made me think that he was gonna just like immediately go in, so I'm curious if like I missed something or if this really is just like a twist that he's bringing to Viserys. 

Josh Wigler: No, I think that he, I, I think that Viserys and Daemon, they haven't interacted. Last that they did, Viserys wrote this note to Daemon saying, I'm going to send you 2000 people to help you out. And Daemon says, okay, no, I'm going to do this myself and then I'm going to nail 2000 people to, to the sand. Um, so I think the fact that they're, you know, that was the response, uh, essentially, and they have not communicated it seems in the time since then. So I think vicars is on edge, rightfully so. All of the people who are in his ear are on edge about Daemon as well. The only small council member who was kind of team Daemon was the Sea Snake, and he's gone and he hasn't come back. 

Katey Rich: He's gone. 

Josh Wigler: So I think like there is this question of, well, what's he gonna do? This is an unannounced arrival, that's from the book as well. Uh, in the book, he, he flies back Daemon, uh, on Caraxes and just flutters around the, the tourney grounds of King's Landing three times in the air. Just being very dramatic about his, uh, his return to, to King's Landing. So it plays out similarly here as well. I think just this question of what are Daemon's intentions, but he takes the crown off, he surrenders it. And I think character-wise, I know how I, I feel about when Daemon is talking about I'm in it for the family. I, I, I care about you Viserys. You kind of suck as a king and I wanna look out for you. Does that, um, are, are you reading that at surface level? Are you reading that as, you know, kind of authentic truths from this character? Or are you feeling... 

Katey Rich: I don't think we can, right? 

Josh Wigler: Yeah. 

Katey Rich: I mean, especially after what comes later in the episode where I think you kind of see what his plan is and it involves Rhaenyra, you know, you know, you see later him and Viserys really getting along. They have this party and I, I really like seeing that. You see Viserys so happy and he's never happy. And like you get that they're brothers and like they have a relationship there, so I don't think he's like actively trying to like wish Viserys ill will, but it does seem like a calculated move above all.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Uh, we get to that feast and second episode in a row where Viserys is just getting bombed, Katey. Like this is- 

Katey Rich: Yeah, man, he's bored. He's a king. He didn't have much to do. 

Josh Wigler: Uh, he's, he's bored. He doesn't have a ton going on. I did notice, uh, on this time, because I'm, I'm being, I'm trying to be very sensitive to this now, Katey, because I missed it on the first pass. I feel like I should have seen the, the green screen fingers.

Katey Rich: I know. 

Josh Wigler: Back in episode three. Uh, so I did notice that the two fingers that are supposed to be gone from Viserys, uh, the are, are flapping in his gloves as he's clasping his brother on the back. Um, and yeah. 

Katey Rich: That's some tough CG work. Listen credit to the people who make that possible.

Josh Wigler: It's hard, it's hard stuff and I think they're on deadline as well. So yeah, seriously, I can imagine that they are, uh, they are sweating bullets over there, uh, making this show. So Viserys is, he's thrilled to see Daemon it seems like. Um, but he's being very dismissive, not just of, uh, of Rhaenyra, also to Alicent, it seems like. Um, Alicent is wanting to show Daemon some of like the new artistry around King's Landing since he's been gone. Viserys just laughs in her face essentially. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. No, no, not nice. Don't do that.

Josh Wigler: No, no. And then Rhaenyra says, well, I I'd love to check that out. That would be fun. And Viserys says, just go anytime. Uh, you get the sense that he is, he is once again, not exactly thrilled with Rhaenyra. Yeah. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. Well, and he's just so fo so focused on, I mean, I get the sense that he's just like genuinely happy to have Daemon back, right? Like he, he doesn't seem to have a, a whole secondary plot going on with Daemon, right? 

Josh Wigler: No, not at the moment. Uh, I mean, I think that Viserys is a little, Viserys, certainly for me, I don't feel like this is a huge book spoiler, he's a little bit more of a take him as he shows himself right? You know, I think that he is, he is a character who's not really hiding who he is and the show isn't really hiding who Viserys is. He is somebody who wants to do right and is he doing right is another question. And is he good at this? You know, is this one thing that Daemon has rightly clocked about his brothers? Like I love my brother, the worst thing about him is he's this terrible king. Um, you know, I think that there's a lot of that energy with, with Viserys right now and right now I don't think that any level of Daemon has ulterior motives here is at all on his mind. 

Katey Rich: Yep. Yeah. Poor guy. Well, yeah, he, he's made this bed. 

Josh Wigler: Uh, but we've got some good news because it seems like, uh, the, the growing conflict between Rhaenyra and Alicent, they have, uh, been on the outs of each other for many years at this point. It's been about four years now at this point. Katey, they're they're back, Rhaenyra and Alicent together again. 

Katey Rich: I mean, they should be allies, right? Like obviously a lot has happened, uh, between the two of them. But like Alicent's stuck in this castle Rhaenyra doesn't wanna be stuck in a castle kind of very insensitively says, like, who wants to just be stuck pumping out heirs? And Alicent's like, uh, okay, that's, that's literally what I'm up to. 

Josh Wigler: Hi it me. Yeah. 

Katey Rich: Uh, and yeah, I mean this, um, you know, moment of honesty together isn't gonna last very long as we know from later in the episode. But it definitely, it feels like these, these two are natural allies. They needed to get it together.

Josh Wigler: And, um, we, we had some feedback on the Alicent front. This was from Grace who, who wrote, and I felt like it was good to bring in now. Um, Grace had written in and said, I noticed something in the first episode that makes me think that Alicent may be older than Rhaenyra as she is in the books. Um, we've talked about this a little bit on the, on the podcast as well, that this is one of the big changes for the show. Alicent has been aged to closer to Rhaenyra's age. In the book she's about a decade older. Um, Grace continues, she says when the two friends are talking about the history of Nymeria, the whole scene read to me as a tutoring session. It just seemed like Alicent was testing her on this knowledge and making her study regardless of whether she's 10 years older than Rhaenyra is, uh, as in the books, this is still troubling, troubling, but it gives me some hope that it's maybe not quite as bad as we think. Viserys still doesn't pass the Leo DiCaprio test, uh, since she couldn't be more than 25 of his daughter is 15. Um, so that was from, from Grace. I'm still kind of personally reading it as Rhaenyra and Alicent are closer in, in age. I don't know if you had any, uh, strong, strong takes here for yourself, Katey. 

Katey Rich: Yeah, I can see, I can see, I mean, you know, when you're a teenager the difference between 17 and 18 can be really big, so I could see it being about that much. But I do think as, especially as you get later in the episode, you see Rhaenyra having her night of freedom while Alicent is stuck in the tower. I think you, you are meant to see them as pretty much equals, um, and look at their different situations that way. 

Josh Wigler: Yeah. I think that this scene specifically when Rhaenyra and Alicent are, are talking in, in a way that they have not talked to each other in a very long time it feels like, I think it sets up all of that midsection of the episode so well. Um, you know, this idea of like Rhaenyra, you've got the freedom to choose. I am just stuck in the tower, this is my life. And I think just the, the vibrancy of King's Landing as we're going through it with Daemon and Rhaenyra contrasted to when we do cut back to Alicent, she's, you know, pouring herself a cup of wine and that's basically the scene. You know, she is lighting a candle in her very dark quarters, that's the scene. Um, you know, you even contrast it with the pleasure house. It's really brutal the contrast. Uh, so I think that this scene is doing a lot of work of trying to ground us, the viewer, in what is life like for the princess and the queen. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. And what could Rhaenyra's life become like if she, yeah, you know, winds, when she winds up marrying. She kind of doesn't have a choice on that front.

Josh Wigler: Right. Um, Rhaenyra and Daemon get some time together here, Katey. 

Katey Rich: All that High Valyrian flirting. My goodness. 

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Are you feeling okay about the High Valyrian flirting between the Targaryens? Should we just start talking about this now?

Katey Rich: I mean, I kind of like that they have this like fancy language that they speak together. I mean, I guess like, I don't wanna come down like pro incest between an uncle and a niece, because there's obviously lots of problems with it, but like those two actors together, you get why they like each other.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. 

Katey Rich: Um, you know, they get along, they have like similar goals. They learn how to speak this language. Um, I, I like that as a point of connection between them.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. The other week I was having a conversation, uh, and uh, the idea of that, that, um, Lord Strong, uh, the Master of Laws pitches Viserys on you should have Rhaenyra marry Laenor Velaryon. We'll do what we didn't do, you know what I told you to do a few years ago. We can heal this rift between, uh, between our, between your family and the Sea Snakes family. Uh, and that conversation was like, well, they are cousins, um, but in Westeros that kind of feels like a coup. You know, like that feels like a big upgrade. Um, yeah, this, this episode is showing, uh, a little bit of a closer connection and, and what this might look like. And I, I feel like this has been, I think that the, the show has been doing a lot of work to sort of set the deck for this. You know, whether or not it's gonna be palatable is another question, but I think everybody is watching _House of the Dragon_ and they're just waiting for the moments that happen in this episode to happen between Rhaenyra and Daemon.

Katey Rich: Yeah, I'm very curious about, I mean, we're recording this before the episode airs, so I, I'm curious to see the response, but yeah, to me, like knowing what I do about _Game of Thrones_ and the world of Westeros, which is not really, even that much, like this feels like, oh yeah, this is what would happen. If a 14 year old's gonna get married, then yes. I would rather this than like Viserys have married, um, that little girl, like, that felt way worse.

Josh Wigler: Right. For sure. Um, it's been four years since they've seen each other is, uh, is the indication here in this scene. Um, he's talking about how, uh, they, they're both talking about how they've both changed a lot in this time. Some things are the same. She's still wearing, uh, the necklace that Daemon gave to her at the start of the series. She has not always been wearing this necklace, uh, it's worth pointing out, but she is today. She did break it out for this occasion. 

Katey Rich: I was wondering about that necklace, because there was still a lot of focus on it. I had forgotten about that. 

Josh Wigler: We get different perspectives on what marriage looks like in, in Westeros, Daemon and Rhaenyra talk this through. Daemon's being very casual about it. Uh, marriage's just a political thing, Rhaenyra, you get married, you can do whatever you like after, it's not so bad. And Rhaenyra is like, oh, really. Very nice that that's how you view it. Uh, for me, it's potentially a death sentence. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. When and that echos something she starts talking about with Viserys later on, she's like, I can do whatever I want if I were a boy. He's like, yeah, but you're not tough. And they seem to have really no, um, no desire to investigate that double standard they have in their minds. 

Josh Wigler: No, definitely not. And I think, uh, that scene, that Viserys and, and Daemon are gonna have later on when they have their, uh, their latest falling out between the two of them, I think that Daemon is the one who maybe pushes back on it a little bit of like, what were we doing when we were kids? And, and Viserys is one is like, we were young men. Uh, so not being interrogated much at all by Viserys who is, uh, is at least trying to do the right thing by Rhaenyra still, but I think not looking at it any deeper than, than that. I think he looks too deep at it and he sees what happened with, uh, with Queen Aemma at the start of the show. So, yep, doesn't really wanna look that in the eye right now. Um, so we have a small council meeting very quick one where we find out the Sea Snake isn't here. He has, he has not returned to King's Landing. It still seems like there are hurt feelings between the two houses. We learn from, uh, we've got some, some news from Otto Hightower's brother, back in Old Town that the word on the street is the Sea Snake is going to marry his daughter off to the Sea Lord of Braavos's son. So that's basically the, the highest seat of power in, in Braavos. 

Katey Rich: And Braavos being a totally separate country than Westeros, right?

Josh Wigler: Yes. Uh, it's like the, it's the big city. The big closest city, I think, uh, on Essos to King's Landing, so, uh, an, an important political alignment if the Sea Snake is going that way. The Sea Snake it's- I, I don't know what it looks like for him right now after a few years of war, but certainly heading into that war, uh, the Sea Snake and, and House Valerian are being talked about as the wealthiest house in Westeros. So big, big money behind their name and if they're throwing that money in with the free cities that might look, uh, look, might not look so great for, for what's going on here in Westeros and I think this is that sort of loaded look of, well, if they're aligning with the free cities, we might wanna do something about that and seek a marriage pact of our own. And the unspoken piece of it for now, it will be spoken out loud by the end of the episode is all eyes on Rhaenyra for that because the Sea Snake does have a son.

Katey Rich: Yeah. Well, doesn't this just make Viserys's choice to marry Alicent look even stupider. 

Josh Wigler: Yes. 

Katey Rich: Like he knew that he was making a bad- like he wasn't going for the convenient alliance. But like now he looks like a hypocrite as he forces Rhaenyra into it and like, marrying Alicent seems to have worked out okay. But like, it just couldn't have been worth it. 

Josh Wigler: No and I mean, we did have that, I believe it was last week, uh, when Rhaenyra makes a comment about that, of, you know, if we were doing this purely out of duty, you, would've not married my best friend. And then Viserys's like, yeah, true. Um, so there's some degree of self awareness I think that he's bad at this. Um, but, uh, you know, that only gets you so far. 

Katey Rich: And like you said, Daemon is not wrong about, uh, how he reads his brother. 

Josh Wigler: Yeah, I think so. Uh, so that's living with Rhaenyra, uh, when she goes off to sleep for the night, I think. Um, you know, this idea of, well, this one sounds like a foregone conclusion. It seems like this is where everything is headed that I I'm going to be married off to the Sea Snake's son. 

Katey Rich: And how old is he at this point? He's younger, but not as younger as the girl is.

Josh Wigler: No, he is. Um, he's probably, I would say early twenties would be my guess. Uh, I think he's, he is around there. We have, uh, we've already changed actors with him one time.

Katey Rich: Ah, okay. 

Josh Wigler: So we have, we do have one casting change that has occurred. We saw him in the premier, um, a long, long way back. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. I remember those two kids being there at the, uh, big jousting match. 

Josh Wigler: Yeah. So that was Matthew Carver was the actor who played, uh, the youngest version of Laenor Velaryon. Theo Nate is the actor who is playing him now. Um, so he is, you know, at least, um, I think at youngest he is Rhaenyra as contemporary. Uh, so they, they are of the same age. 

Katey Rich: So, so certainly a tolerable political match for her. 

Josh Wigler: Again, you know, same age and cousins, a total coup. A total coup. 

Katey Rich: I said tolerable alright. Not ideal. 

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Not ideal, but this is, this is a different world we're talking about. Um, so in her, in her bedroom, when she goes in, Criston Cole is guarding her for the night. Um, she goes in and there's this bag that is here, it does not belong to her. She investigates it, there's clothes, there's a scroll, it's a map. It points to this hidden passage in her bedroom that she did not know about previously. Um, and there's a secret door- 

Katey Rich: Do you buy that? This is, this is the thing, like she's lived there her whole life. She doesn't seem like someone who avoids trouble, like, did she really not know about this? 

Josh Wigler: She feels like someone to me who would know about secret passageways.

Katey Rich: Right? 

Josh Wigler: Uh, yes. Uh, it definitely read that way to me as well. Uh, that maybe especially if this is the room that she's been sleeping in, since you know her entire life almost. She's 18 now at this point in the episode. Yeah. Yeah. I think maybe this could have been on her, on her radar. 

Katey Rich: Um, although maybe Daemon is the one who would've shown it to her and he's been gone for four years. Like Daemon definitely is the one who would've known about the secret passageway, so he just hadn't had his chance yet. 

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Last he saw her she's 14, 15 years old. He's like, you gotta wait until you're 16, 17. And then he missed those years. He missed those years. Um, but it's so loud. This was the thing when I was it's so loud, uh, that it's a, it's a really bad look on, on Ser Criston Cole. For whatever reason, Katey, this was my huge hangup of the episode is how does he not hear? It's such a racket. It's so loud. 

Katey Rich: Maybe he was like out getting a coffee and missed, missed his moment. I mean, he'll, he might have hell to pay for this in the next episode. 

Josh Wigler: We, we know _Game of Thrones_ loves coffee. Uh, so it could be that he was just out getting a... it is a late night. He's got a, he's got a night shift. So, uh, maybe. Um, Rhaenyra sneaks out, she, she goes past Balerion, the Black Dread, so she's, you know, fairly, you know, not only totally out in the open, but she's passing through well traveled terrain here in the Red Keep and eventually she is going to run into, into Daemon, and they're gonna go for this night on the town. We go through it. We're seeing, you know, uh, all sorts of, you know, there's this man with fire on his hands. There's lots of... there's musicians playing. There's just some, you know, casual sex in the alleyways as you do here on the, in King's Landing. 

Katey Rich: Uh, I really love the score in this segment. Yeah. Um, I don't know. I don't think we've heard that music before and, you know, Ramin Djawadi has gotten, um, you know, a little bit of, uh, nudging for using the same score again for the theme song. Um, but this, again, it sounded really different from _Game of Thrones _and really, um, added so much atmosphere in this section.

Josh Wigler: I think, I think that there is, there is a, there's a moodiness to these scenes and I think even, um, in Matt Smith's portrayal as well. And I think Milly Alcock too, she has this sort of starstruck quality about her, of she's seeing her kingdom in a totally different way for the very first time in her entire life. She's undercover. No one knows who she is. She is free from the burden of being a Targaryen if only for a few hours. Uh, yeah and I, I think the way that Matt Smith is playing it as Daemon, he's, he's pretty quiet through a lot of this. He's really just letting the experience speak for itself. You know, they're drinking, they're strolling through, this is old hat for Daemon Targaryen. He's lived this life. Yeah. This is a, a first for Rhaenyra.

Katey Rich: This is where the haircut really comes in handy too. I think, I mean, he's got a hood on for a lot of it, but, uh, getting rid of those, like, you know, yeah. He just, he looks good. He looks good. Again, I don't wanna be pro incest here, but Matt Smith, I, you know, he's got a strong look here.

Josh Wigler: We get it is the point, uh, for sure. Um, so we are, we're gonna be cutting back and forth between what's happening in, um, in the streets and what's happening back at the Keep. Um, one of the scenes that we get is Viserys is being bathed by... how many people does it take to bathe the king? 

Katey Rich: Like six until Alicent's like, just let me do it, which yeah. 

Josh Wigler: This is weird guys. You're just staring at him and he's feeling very self-conscious. Uh, just let me wash my husband please. Um, so yeah, it's, I mean, I think that this is really, for me, I don't know what else you're taking from it, I think that this scene, um, her drinking the wine, um, her and the knight getting like the very, very late night booty call, essentially, it's all underlining what does life even look like for Alicent as the queen? She was talking earlier in the episode of sometimes I forget that I was Lady Alicent, the- no one sees me that way anymore, everybody just sees me as the queen and it's fairly lonely is, you know, the subtext there. I think that's the big subtext of, of these scenes for me.

Katey Rich: Yeah. And also, okay, I think I said earlier, like what it would, could be like for Rhaenyra, uh, being married off, um, you know, that's, that's the life that she's trying to escape for this one night with her uncle. 

Josh Wigler: Yeah. And I think for Rhaenyra, she's getting a very different experience in a lot of different ways obviously, but one of them is this big scene that we get here where, uh, it's been a minute since we have seen, uh, a, uh, a stage play in, uh, in _Game of Thrones_. Were you happy to see, uh, some, some stage work happening here on the show? 

Katey Rich: Oh yeah. I mean, it made me feel like I'm watching _Shakespeare in Love_ just watching like a really, uh, a silly comedy out there. Um, I, I am curious about how much of this is supposed to be a revelation to Rhaenyra about how, how people feel about this. Does she like really not know that people might want her brother to take over? It seems to be what she's afraid of. 

Josh Wigler: I feel like it's confirmation, right. You know, I think that this is like confirming her worst fears is that, yeah, people just don't want her anywhere near the throne because she's a girl. You know, uh, that, you know, my, my, my baby brother, two years old, three years old now, I suppose, as he is, is still the preferred candidate. Um, and I think, I think it's, it's, it feels to me, it's, it's one of those things where it's, it's one thing to, to, to feel it, it's a totally different thing to, to know it. And this is a moment where she is really alone in booing Aegon as the heir in this moment. Um, everybody else is team Aegon.

Katey Rich: It was really bold her actually.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Uh, no, I loved that. I thought it was great. I loved that she had this moment of sticking up for herself from the back of the crowd, but she's just got no backup here. Even Daemon, I think the whole point is you should see this. You should know. Um, and of course I think underneath that is Daemon's, uh, feeling of, you know, you'll get on the throne with my help. Uh, so all of that, that's going on. All of that's, all of the stuff that's happening here, by the way, Katey, this is another instance of just a sliver of the book that's being expanded out. Um, you know, obviously all of this is gonna build towards, uh, the sex scene between Rhaenyra and Criston Cole uh, that's gonna be coming a few scenes from now. And there were a lot of questions about how all of this was going to be adapted for the show. Um, _Fire and Blood,_ it's written from the perspective of a maester of Westeros, who was not alive during this time, and he's drawing from the sources that he has available. And this whole period of time, there's a lot of conflicting information about how this moment played out. Um, and one of the things that's, that's interesting to me is, um, that this is supposed to be with Daemon and Rhaenyra. Most of the reports are that Daemon comes back from the Stepstones and he's here for half a year and almost everybody agrees on that. Uh, I think everybody agrees on that in the, in the, in the case of the book. It's clearly being shortened to a night, you know, maybe he's here for a week, I don't know. 

Katey Rich: Sure. 

Josh Wigler: Um, but there is this one passage of Daemon, um, walking Rhaenyra through the streets, and the intention, according to the book is Daemon is trying to teach Rhaenyra how to seduce Criston Cole. Uh, that is, oh, that is the case in, in the book. In the show here, it's, um, it's being played very, very differently and, um, in, in my humble opinion, I'm, I'm much happier with how it's being depicted on the show, because gosh, if I never have to read George R.R. Martin writing another sex scene again, I will be incredibly happy. Uh, and some of the things he describes between Daemon and Rhaenyra, that it's not just that Daemon is showing her King's Landing and taking her to a pillow house or whatever that he and Rhaenyra are, um, are, are, you know, are, are hooking up and he's showing her how to, how to pleasure a man. Uh, and the way it's written is just, is, is really kind of trashy and it's being depicted from the perspective of a very trashy character that one of the sources of information during this period of time is a character who we haven't seen on _House of the Dragon_. I don't know that we are going to see on _House of the Dragon_. Um, is a character named Mushroom. Have you heard much about Mushroom Katey? 

Katey Rich: No. No, but I did have a question. Oh, who is, who is it that comes late? Who's the, uh, the source who comes to Otto? Uh, White Worm, is that right? Is he the, the version White Worm? 

Josh Wigler: Totally different White Worm and, uh, Mysaria, uh, who, who we have seen before and we see again in this episode. She's the one with Daemon while Daemon is nursing like this hangover from hell, uh, 

Katey Rich: Right, wait, is that not the same woman who he like pretended was his wife? 

Josh Wigler: It's the same woman. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. Okay. That's what I thought. 

Josh Wigler: Yep. And she is, um, if she wasn't known by this name before she is now, uh, the White Worm. She has developed a bit of a reputation of herself, of being a source of information, information, broker. She's gonna be saying that to Daemon of, you know, the, the trade of the flesh is not gonna be as lucrative as the trade of information is essentially what that boils down to. Um, Mushroom trades in information, but also really loves to trade in information of the flesh. Uh, he is like a super pervert. He is a, he is a court jester. He is a dwarf and he has, um, I'm gonna just quote George R.R. Martin here, these are his words, not mine, uh, an alleged enormous member that he writes about way too often, and I'm so glad that this is, he's not there about the show. I couldn't handle Mushroom. Uh, I think we could leave Mushroom. Mushroom could stay in the book.

Katey Rich: Um, I mean, this is the whole thing about, so I didn't know any of this about Daemon's role and like his intentions here. Um, but I think like the patronizing aspect of that is like, let me show you how to seduce man. Like that sucks, we don't need that. Um, and the way that, like the sex is depicted at this pleasure house, like there's a lot of emphasis on like women having a good time and like men having a good time together. Like I think we see like full final male nudity. I need to go back and check. 

Josh Wigler: Um, we do. 

Katey Rich: And I, like I said, I, I haven't re-watched Game of Thrones in a while, but it just feels like a really different way of depicting a brothel, which we saw plenty of in original _Game of Thrones_. It feels like a completely different perspective on this.

Josh Wigler: There was a part of me that was kind of just like, okay, well it's _Game of Thrones,_ there was bound to be a brothel scene. Uh, and you know, so there, so watching this stuff, I think on my first pass, I was, I was a little bit like miss me with this. Uh and I, and, and I do, and I do think that there is, um, there... I'm gonna be really interested in getting people's reactions to this one, Katey. Like, I, I, I don't know that I've come around to this portion of the episode as anything for me other than _Game of Thrones_ is just kind of _Game of Thrones_. You know, it did, it, it didn't land squarely with me. It felt, it felt a little bit like the older version of the show. Um, but I think that the, the impact of it and where Rhaenyra ends up at the other side of this sequence, I think is a really important place to push the character and knowing that this was, you know, this is one of those things where you can, you can change certain things about the storytelling from the book, but I think there are some structural beats that you really just cannot change, uh, or else, so much falls apart. So this ha- some version of this had to happen. I, I prefer the way that they did it on the show to how it goes in the book. 

Katey Rich: In the book does he leave? Does he, like, it seems like he kinda gets freaked out and leaves right. 

Josh Wigler: In the, in the book it's it's um, it's there isn't like sort of a, like a highly personal version of, of this. Um, I think that the bigger question in the book, the way that the book leaves it is is Daemon trying to coach Rhaenyra up to, to seduce Criston Cole, or is he trying to besmearch her honor so that Viserys will let him marry his daughter. Um, and, and I, and I think that there is still a read of that that's intact by, um, you know, the end of this episode when Daemon and Viserys have their big falling out. But then there is this moment when, when Daemon and, um, and Rhaenyra are, uh, you know, finally, uh, just showing some physical intimacy in, in this sequence and he's the one who ends it. And it seems like he is having, he is having his, his own thoughts about it and that remains, I think for me, pretty enigmatic as far as what is he taking away from all of this and is this a version of him, you know, real, like, was this a political move I think is still fairly open and the book left it kind of open as well. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. I definitely read it as like, he is attracted to her. Like he would want to marry her if it were not politically convenient, but because it is politically convenient and would benefit him immensely, he's kind of much more into pursuing it. Like it's a little bit of head and the heart operating there. 

Josh Wigler: Yeah. All of this is contrasted with Alicent and Viserys having sex at night, uh, and Alicent looking totally miserable. 

Katey Rich: Absolutely miserable. 

Josh Wigler: Yeah. This was hard. That was really, really tough to watch. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. Uh, yeah, at the moment where like he gets, he tries to catch her eye and she like puts on a face for his benefit is just really heartbreaking. Yeah. And I mean, she's resigned, you know, it's not, she's not surprised by any of this. 

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Yeah. And I, I, I, I have to go back and, and, and see what, what was it, a rat that was on, uh, the bed post there's some animal that she's looking at. 

Katey Rich: Uh, oh God. Yeah, you're right. I forgot about that. 

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Uh, so there's, there's some animal I have to go back and, and, and check, but just even like the, you know, just the, the, there was like a dirtiness to it, uh, that I think is being literalized by the presence of this, this outsider, uh, that is, that is here. Um, that I think is, is really furthering this theme and I, I think that there have been a lot of questions about where is Alicent at in all of this? Um, you know, does she care about the king? Did she care about the king at the start of this? Was she just pushed into this by her father? Her, father's really gonna be a huge subject of this as we, as we pushed deeper into the episode. Um, but I think for the first time, even though it's still, you know, subject to interpretation, I do think that we're getting, uh, much more of a read on Alicent and what life for her is like as the queen, it's joyless. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. Yeah. And like, and again, like, I, this isn't like Sansa stuck with Ramsay in_ Game of Thrones_, right? Like Alicent made a choice on some level, like to the extent that she had choices in this world, like she made a political move the same way that Rhaenyra is about to, and everyone else has, but it doesn't mean that there's not a human misery associated with that. 

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Um, one thing that we, we kind of glossed over that I feel like, uh, it, I, I will, I will get it in the proverbial comments section if I do not call this out , uh, is before they go to the pleasure house, uh, Rhaenyra is going to- she's gonna steal something, she's gonna be chased through the streets by Daemon. She's going to run into a knight, uh, Ser Harwin Strong "Break Bones," allegedly the strongest man in Westeros, so appropriately named, I would say. 

Katey Rich: What a name. 

Josh Wigler: He is, um, we saw him last week. He's the son of Lord Strong, the Master of Laws, his brother is Larys Strong with the clubfoot, who we saw last week as well. 

Katey Rich: Oh yeah. Okay. 

Josh Wigler: He's the guy, if you, if you notice this, certainly the meme lords have, uh, is this scene when Rhaenyra is coming back covered in the bore blood and she catches a look from a guy who just seems very happy to see Rhaenyra covered in bore guts. Uh, he's like very impressed and has this big goofy grin on his face, this is the same guy. 

Katey Rich: Uh, got it. Okay. 

Josh Wigler: Who, who just lets her go. You know, he, he, he clocks her, have a good night, boy, uh, and she gets to move on. 

Katey Rich: So yeah. What is that, is that gonna come up later? Like that felt like a little bit of a, a tangent.

Josh Wigler: I think worth noting. Uh, I think, I think worth noting the interaction between Rhaenyra and Break Bones. Uh, to be continued on Break Bones for sure. 

Katey Rich: Filing that away. 

Josh Wigler: Yeah, put that in the, yeah. Uh, put that in a safe space. Uh, and we will, we will examine it later. Um, Rhaenyra comes home, um, after Daemon has just split, she is able to, to get home not unnoticed, there is this boy who watches her leave and obviously is going to come to Otto and, uh, and give the, the news, uh, a message from the White Worm, so that is gonna be Mysaria, who we will see in a bit. But when Rhaenyra comes home, she blitz's past Ser Criston, who seems like, was totally shocked that she is not in the room.

Katey Rich: Dude. 

Josh Wigler: And we do, we do get this love scene between, uh, the two of them, which I think is another one, probably long awaited by people who've been leaning in. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. Yeah. I wrote down, uh, what a fancy sex scene, because it just like goes on for a long time. 

Josh Wigler: Really long time, Katey. 

Katey Rich: I dunno if there's like vaseline on the lens, but everyone looks really great. I noticed that like you, you don't see her boobs, uh, which again feels like the new _Game of Thrones_, like that that's isn't necessarily restraint they would've had in the past. Um, and she seems to be having a great time. 

Josh Wigler: Worth noting ,I think Katey, this, this episode was, uh, not directed by a man. Uh, Clare Kilner is the director of this episode. 

Katey Rich: Very worth noting. 

Josh Wigler: She has a few episodes. She's gonna direct the next one as well, next week's episode, "We Light the Way." She will also have the penultimate episode, which has a provocative title for me as a book reader, "The Green Council," uh, your episode nine is always an event. I'm very excited, especially after watching this one being so character focused. I think we've got, uh, we've got some major story beats that are in, in really safe hands and not the least of which is, um, you know, a sex scene between a character who is played by an actor in their twenties. Um, but we've seen this same actor play Rhaenyra as a 14 year old. This, I think was a really tall order to, to, to serve up to us in a way that I think was going to be, um, you know, not salacious, not scandalous. I think it, it does feel like a very loving scene to me. I, I don't know if you had a different read on it. 

Katey Rich: No, I think like she is pursuing him. Uh, he seems to be treating her well, she's enjoying herself. Like I think, you know, I thought about what Daemon said, like you get married and you can do whatever you want. Like, is this the best case scenario for Rhaenyra that she marries whoever and then Ser Criston's still hanging around to, to actually have a good time with. 

Josh Wigler: Yeah, he is a, you know, uh, a lot of armor that needs to be removed. 

Katey Rich: That takes a long time, but seriously, the scene goes on for like 10 minutes. 

Josh Wigler: Like, so much of the scene is literally just like taking all of the individual pieces of armor off. 

Katey Rich: The shoulder plate, breast plate.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, like the forearm plates. Like all of the plates are gone, uh, by the end of it. It's a very big deal for Ser Criston Cole, who, you know, this is, you know, he is way above his station at this point. He talked about that in episode three with Rhaenyra that, you know, you've given me the greatest honor that I could have ever imagined for myself in, in my life, by naming me to the Kings Guard. The Kings Guard, I, I believe are supposed to be celibate, let alone, uh, you know, embarking on a relationship secretly with the princess who they're supposed to protect. So this is not a nothing deal. This is a, this is a very big deal. Yep. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. I wondered about the celibacy, because I feel like there's all, you know, the there's the, the Knight's Watch, like I feel like in the world of Westeros, there's a lot of rules about who, in what job is allowed to sleep with people. 

Josh Wigler: It never stop Jaime Lannister. 

Katey Rich: No, no. It never seemed to stop anyone honestly. 

Josh Wigler: No, not really. No. Yeah. Rules more like guidelines, as some might say. Um, so we do get this scene with Mysaria and Daemon, uh, the return of Mysaria to the show and she and Daemon do not seem to have had much in the way of interaction in this time, um, there is a detail from the book that seems to have been, uh, very much changed for the sake of the show. Um, back in episode two, when Daemon is saying that he and Mysaria were expecting a child, uh, that seems like it was just him bluffing, uh, and him kind of, um, you know, bloviating back in, uh, back at Dragonstone just to get his brother's attention. The book has it, and again, it's all, you know, you know, second, third hand sources, so the, the history can be molded for the show and this can be kind of the canonical narrative. Um, but it seemed like she was pregnant in the book and that she lost the child when she left Dragonstone. I don't know if that's something that's going to come up on the show so far it does not feel that way. It feels like that whole thing was played kind of, um, you know, farsicaly uh, that it isn't, you know, something that was real. 

Katey Rich: That seems very much in line with this show's goal of giving women more agency. Uh, you know, within the boundaries of the world of Westeros, which, you know, as we've said, doesn't give women a lot of options, like having a character have a miscarriage just as like a plot beat seems pointless and that was really smart to excise.

Josh Wigler: And I don't think that it really adds anything, uh, to, uh, to _Fire and Blood. _So, uh, to take that completely out of here, I think, uh, it, it absolutely works. 

Katey Rich: I feel glad for her that she's just been rid of him this whole time and going about her business. 

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Well, she's trying to give him, uh, a hangover remedy. He wants nothing to do with that. Um, maybe he should have taken the hangover remedy considering what's coming next. Uh, cause he's, he's really feeling it this morning. 

Katey Rich: Yeah, he's in for it. 

Josh Wigler: He's in for it because Viserys is about to hear what Otto Hightower describes as discomforting news.

Katey Rich: I know. 

Josh Wigler: He's really selling it pretty small at the start of this. 

Katey Rich: He is not ready to have that conversation. He does not wanna be there. 

Josh Wigler: Well speaking, Katey of, of scenes that go on for a long time, you know, Otto gets this news in the night and then we get this Daemon and Mysaria scene. And then before Otto goes to Viserys, the camera's just on Rhys Ifans for a bit. Uh, it's just on Otto Hightower and there's, there's a read where it's like, okay, I need to shore up some nerve to have this conversation, but I also wonder how much of it is, is this, you know, he's been in his way, trying to kind of subtly manipulate events. You know, he, he match made his daughter with Viserys, his grandson could be the heir to the Iron Throne, is this a bridge too far? Am I going to be pulling the curtain back on the fact that I've been watching your daughter? How is this going to land? It obviously all lands very, very poorly. But I'm curious where your head is at regarding Otto's headspace? Maybe even just Otto, generally. He survives the episode, but he doesn't, uh, get to keep his job by the end of it. Which again, good outcome I think for _Game of Thrones_. 

Katey Rich: Yeah's true. That's true. Well, you know, you, you see, um, Viserys has this like dagger in a pot of coals and I was like, oh my God, what is he gonna do with that? And he does, he doesn't wind up killing anyone with it, which, you know, good outcome. No, I wanted to ask you about Otto too, because honestly like he's been there, he's been giving advice. I, you know, I was very clear that he positioned Alicent to, you know, marry the king and that worked out really well for him. But when Rhaenyra, you know, jumping ahead a little bit, kind of comes in and tells her father, like he's been ploting against me the whole time. And Viserys is kinda like, oh yeah, I guess so. I felt like Viserys turned against him quicker than I would've expected. And I'm wondering if I missed something of where he would've had doubts or if like the combination of him telling him something he didn't wanna hear about Rhaenyra and then that accusation was just enough to totally change his perspective on Otto.

Josh Wigler: I think that episode three did some work in this direction for me. Um, I think that in the third episode, everybody is making all of this noise about the White Heart stag and oh my God, what an oman. Uh, you know, on, on a Aegon's birthday, no less, the, the king of the Kingswood is, is rolling into town. Uh, and I think that Otto is really leaning on that button quite a bit and there is a moment where he, where he's talking about that in the woods with Viserys. Viserys just kind of, you know, pats him on the shoulder and, and goes about his his day. Uh, and it's not terribly long after that, that Viserys begins his bender and he's gonna, you know, field the marriage proposal for Rhaenyra from Jason Lannister and Jason Lannister is gonna be the one who kind of challenges Rhaenyra's claim to the Iron Throne accidentally, uh, and not long after that is when Otto is going to bring up, uh, well, why don't you just marry Rhaenyra off to my grandson? Um, yeah, I think the thing with Viserys is he's not, he, he's dumb in certain regards. Uh, you know, I think that he's ineffectual in, in a bunch of ways, but I think that he, he can see what's happening around him to a certain extent and I think that there's some willful blinders that he, that he leaves on, but I think that, you know, with, with Otto, I think the, the, the subtle suggesting from Otto Hightower is starting to go noticed by Viserys as recently as a year ago, uh, is, is how I would clock that. 

Katey Rich: I think that's a really good way to put it. You know, I had remembered the proposal for the two year old, obviously, but kind, sort of forgotten that that was Otto's grandson and like how much benefit he gets from that.

Josh Wigler: Right. 

Katey Rich: Um, I mean, I guess that's hard when you're the hand of the king, like you really are in the middle of everything. Like a lot of things can benefit you, but I do think he is probably right that Otto is more in it for himself than for the king. 

Josh Wigler: Well, yeah, he, he says this to him, uh, when, when Viserys is kind of, um, he's going off. This is a lie, you're being lied to, who's responsible for this gossip. Have the rumor monger brought to me at once and I will take their eyes and just an incredible line delivery there. Um, but he is then going to turn it on Otto specifically about, you know, Otto saying this source has never failed me yet, and several sources saw Rhaenyra during the night, during the hour of the owl. Um, and Viserys is, is furious that she's being spied upon, uh, and that her reputation is being called into question in this way. And he straight up says to Otto, do you think yourself a cunning man, your designs are obvious. Do you wish to have your blood on the Iron Throne so badly that you would destroy my own? Um, and I think, I think even last week, Otto gets into this a bit with Alicent, uh, about, um, your son has to be on the Iron Throne. The destination is clear, the road ahead isn't. We are in danger if we don't do this right. Um, so I think that Otto, there is the, there's the world in which this is power grabby for Otto, there is also the world in which he's trying to kind of be papa bear to a certain extent, uh, if Rhaenyra gets on the throne and he thinks the worst of her, he thinks that that could be very bad for Alicent, for Aegon, for Helena who's the baby daughter right now. Um, you know, I think that he thinks that this could all trickle downhill in a very, very bad way, and he might not be wrong about that. 

Katey Rich: No, that's the thing is we learned from that show that like, he's not wrong that the people want a Aegon instead. And, um, I guess that's, that's kinda _Game of Thrones_ at its best, right. People who are both right and wrong at the same time. 

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, that's the entirety of, of, of the deal, you know, just existing in the gray. Uh, and I think, you know, you, you see somebody on like the darker side of that on one episode and you're really getting a good hate into them there, and then they do something in the next episode where you're like, oh, you just killed the Crabfeeder and I'm suddenly forgetting that you gelded that man in your second scene of the whole show. Um, I didn't forget that, I have not forgotten that. 

Katey Rich: No, it's very vivid.

Josh Wigler: It was very vivid and we had a lot else to talk about in that episode. It is a brutal time here in Westeros here during the reign of Viserys Targaryen. Um, we get this scene with Alicent and Rhaenyra because Alicent overheard the entire conversation. She was there, she has now been, um, clued in onto these accusations, and she is going to turn it around to Rhaenyra. She has Criston Cole summon Rhaenyra, and he cannot look Rhaenyra in the eye in the cold light of day at all.

Katey Rich: Poor guy. 

Josh Wigler: How this is living with him, it does not seem to be living great with him right now. Um, but Alicent and Rhaenyra have this conversation that I think is a really compelling one. Um, you know, like you said, there is not full honesty in this scene. I think Alicent's intentions of, I want this to, I, I want, I want to improve this situation as best as I can towards Rhaenyra, but also she's deeply wounded. I feel like a lot of the emotions are very honest in this scene, but the information, where we land with Rhaenyra saying Daemon never touched me, um, all of this. The information itself is not exactly on the level. 

Katey Rich: It made me think about the power if, if you're lying, if you at first deny it completely, and then you say, okay, fine. Like, I'll tell you this much. Like that part feels like the truth, even though it's not, and it totally works on Alicent. 

Josh Wigler: Yeah. 

Katey Rich: Uh, so I need to remember this next time I need a stage in elaborate lie. 

Josh Wigler: Uhhuh. Oh yeah, no, this is, this is expert stuff. Uh, next level strategy. Uh, but even, you know, she, the, the, the escalation of how she is imploring, uh, Alicent, she starts with her name. Alicent, your grace, sister, you know, like it goes through this gradation of, we start intimately now let me call upon your station, now let's go back to, you know, this familial relationship between, uh, the two of us. I'm telling you it did not happen. Um, so I don't know. I think, um, Rhaenyra not being fully honest with Alicent at this point, they just kind made up after four years of estrangement, you know, uh, hard to blame her for not wanting to be completely truthful, uh, with this person right now.

Katey Rich: Yeah. I mean, yeah, she's gotta, she's holding on as best she can. I just, is she really, are she and Daemon both really stupid for not thinking that this would come back on them? 

Josh Wigler: Um, I think, uh, I think Daemon is, yeah. Uh, I don't know about Rhaenyra. I, I still feel so she's new to all this. I think she's new to all of it. And, uh, we, Hillary and I talked about this a bit last week too, that there is an element to which Rhaenyra feels like she's been kind of frozen in amber. Uh, you know, that, you know, the, the trauma that happened to her, uh, when her mother died, she's 14, a few months later, her only person that she trusts in the world has been, uh, you know, covertly married off, paired off with her father. Um, you know, I think that the, the three year time jump, she's still kind of, you know, broody teenager about the whole thing, which is fair. Um, so I think that there is an element to which Rhaenyra, you know, she's concerned about, do people want me on the Iron Throne? Am I actually gonna have this thing that I never thought that I would have, but I've now been told that I'm going to have, I think she's living in that space in, in a big way. So for Rhaenyra not to see the top down view of how this could ultimately play out and just get swept up in the occasion in the night and like, having this rare moment for herself where she can just be a person free from the burdens of the crown. Um, I, I get all of that. Daemon is just a reckless dude. Uh, you know, he charged into battle against, uh, you know, uh, you know, thousands of, of enemies, uh, completely without backup. So maybe he's just a, it's a foolish move, but maybe it's just completely consistently in character with this guy. 

Katey Rich: Yeah, no, that sounds about right. And again, I like that, like Rhaenyra as a character who we're rooting for. And like, I, you know, I think I still want her to be on the Iron Throne, but she's not like powerful girl boss who makes no bad decisions. Like she, she has a lot of depth to that character. 

Josh Wigler: Totally. Um, Daemon comes back, uh, and he is immediately brought before Viserys and he is still pretty worse for wear and Viserys is mad. This is the Mad King right now. He's furious. He's not happy. He's kicking him while he's down. Um, but Daemon doesn't deny the charges. Uh, you know, he's, he's, again, he's throwing it back at Viserys that, uh, you know, we, we went to all the brothels when we were young. Uh, Viserys says, this is very telling for me, Katey, we were young men, she's just a girl. 

Katey Rich: Um, yeah, come on Viserys. 

Josh Wigler: You know? Who is, who is he just with the night before these past several years then, you know, so, uh, extraordinary, extraordinary coming from this guy. Um, and he says that you've ruined her, uh, you know, this, you think about what this is going to do to Rhaenyra and no one is going to, to marry her now. Uh, Daemon says that you are the dragon, your word is truth in law. You know, he's trying to convey to his brother that you can make this story whatever it needs to be.

Katey Rich: Um, yeah. 

Josh Wigler: And by the way, just marry her to me. Uh, and I will, I will take Rhaenyra as is the tradition of our house. Viserys hates all of this. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. Okay. Here's my question. Would that be an advantageous political match? I kind of see where he's coming from with saying that they should just get married.

Josh Wigler: I think for, for Daemon's perspective or for Viserys's perspective? 

Katey Rich: From, from like, I feel like for Daemon, it makes sense, but then like, it would power it, make their house powerful, right? To like, that's the whole thing with Targaryen intermarriage, right? Like we keep the blood strong and we, we, we stay, you know, we circle the wagons around our family. 

Josh Wigler: Yeah. I mean, and I think, especially for Viserys is somebody who is going to be talking to Rhaenyra about this in a scene or so from now, um, about how we have some responsibilities as Targaryens that go above and beyond the throne. And so that tracks for me, I think that, I think that you're seizing on it from Viserys's perspective. I think it's all about, you know, the delivery certainly. Uh, and the way that Daemon went about all of this. Like there's just- 

Katey Rich: That's not the best. It's not, not exactly like asking permission to propose. 

Josh Wigler: No, no, this is not great behavior. Uh, it's bad behavior and I, and I think, um, I think from Viserys's perspective on all of this as well, and he, he talks about how I have, I have gone out of my way to, uh, to vouch for you, to back you, you came back, you, you were legendary in the Stepstones, you bent the knee. I thought this was gonna work out great between us and all of a sudden you're just immediately back to your old tricks. Uh, you know, it's like the fool me once, uh, sort of, yeah. 

Katey Rich: He's not wrong about that. 

Josh Wigler: No, he's not. Um, and so he kicks him out. He says, go back to The Vale, go back to your lawful wife. We have not, um, seen Daemon's wife, uh, in the show up to this point, but he is married to, uh, to a, a lady of a noble house of The Vale. Um, so he said- 

Katey Rich: We've not heard many nice things about her though. 

Josh Wigler: No, not at all. Daemon does not seem to like her or anybody, uh, any of the women of the Vale, he has, uh, very, very mean things to say about. Um, but again, this is in, in the book, this is after like a period of peace between the brothers. He's there for half a year. He resumes his seat on the Small Council, you know, he's, he's really back in action. The show is just breezing past all of that stuff. Um, to, yeah, I think heighten the moment, the tension between Daemon and Viserys here. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. I, I, I can see the argument for that for sure. 

Josh Wigler: Um, we get a really quick scene with Alicent and Viserys, uh, Viserys where, um, Alicent is once again really going to bat for, for her friend. Uh, you know, now that they're, they're kind of in, and she says it's not in Rhaenyra's nature to be deceitful. I cannot say the same about your brother. 

Katey Rich: Also Alicent how much do you know Rhaenyra? I mean, like, I guess we haven't really seen Rhaenyra like lying on this level before, but I don't know, like, I- this makes sense for her character, everything that's happened. 

Josh Wigler: I think, uh, you know, if, if, if we're saying, if we're positing that there is an element to which Rhaenyra is kind of stuck in some old feelings, right? And is like still in sort of, um, like mentally, emotionally a time and place, I don't know that the same can't be said for, for Alicent too. Especially with the, the information we get in this episode of like what her life actually looks like behind closed doors when she's alone. Um, that I think for her, the, uh, and even in, in last week's episode, Katey, when she says to Rhaenyra, like none of this needs to be like this. We can, we can, yeah, we can be friends again if we can just have a conversation and maybe I can share my, my, my point of view on how all of this went down. Um, that I think there's a world where now that they are communicating again, Alicent is looking at Rhaenyra as the girl she was reading to under the tree. And, you know, I can trust that person and that person would never lie to me. Time has passed. Uh, so, you know she is vouching for her, uh, and unfortunately vouching for her with, uh, with bad intel. 

Katey Rich: Um, that's a really interesting idea about the, you know, the re-casting that's coming and I don't, do we know what episode, uh, we're gonna see Milly Alcock and, um, the actor that plays Alicent leave us?

Josh Wigler: Yes. Uh, Emily Carey who plays Alicent, we are, we're losing them soon. We've got one more with, uh, with those two actors in the role before we shift gears. 

Katey Rich: Wow. Wow. Again, like just thinking about them being kind of stuck in their teenage selves and like we're watching like those patterns repeat themselves over and over again with these actors and I'm curious about how the shift is maybe going to affect that. Maybe allow them to grow or maybe not. Um, yeah, it it's been really effective. 

Josh Wigler: I think so too. I think it is, um, it is, it is among maybe even the biggest risk, uh, creatively of the show is this, this recasting that's going to happen midway through your first season of the show.

Katey Rich: Yeah. 

Josh Wigler: For these two characters who have been critical to the narrative. I don't think it is at all a reach to say that they have been, you know, some of the core, like the most core characters of _House of the Dragon_ so far. Um, and they've both been so good and I'm, I'm excited to see what they do with them as the story goes forward and especially knowing a bit more about what the story entails for some of these characters on the show. I'm really, really excited about, um, you know, what's on the other side of a time jump that necessitates a recasting, but I also think a lot of people are rightly attached to these performances and it's gonna be a different kind of grieving on _Game of Thrones._ You know, totally where, you know, it's not that the, the, these characters have been killed, they've been recast. We have new people who are playing them and I'm, I'm really interested to see what the reception to that is. I think, I think some people, and maybe even many people are gonna be very disappointed by, by that. Especially if it's a blind side. Uh, so, you know, we're trying to prep you all for this it's coming. It's coming. 

Katey Rich: Um, uh, wasn't it Tommen who was played by like three different actors over the course of _Game of Thrones_? 

Josh Wigler: Two, two different actors? Yeah. 

Katey Rich: We've lived through this before, we can handle it. 

Josh Wigler: We've gone there before. I think I, uh, well I know that the actor who ended up playing him, Dean Charles Chapman played two characters. I wonder how many people played Tommen over the years? There could be three. There were three mountains, you know, it's happened. 

Katey Rich: Maybe the Mountain was what I was thinking of. Yeah, well, we we've been prepared for this. 

Josh Wigler: We've been prepared. Um, we get this, uh, this penultimate scene, uh, I guess anti penultimate scene. There's three more. Um, Rhaenyra comes to Viserys and they have it out. Um, Viserys is going to show her the dagger again, this is the _Game of Thrones_ cats paw dagger that has the prophecy on it, which is okay, this is loaded. This is a literally, uh, loaded weapon that Arya killed the Night King with. It has the Prince Who Was Promised, uh, prophecy right on there, uh, in, in high Valyrian.

Katey Rich: Um, okay. I have a question about this prophecy. 

Josh Wigler: News to me. Yes. 

Katey Rich: Okay. Yeah. All right. So I remember you talking, I think in the first episode, the fact that that prophecy existed and was known to these characters was new, right? Like we had not, we, because we knew about that prophecy in _Game of Thrones_, because it is _The Song of Ice and Fire, _but we didn't know when it had been revealed to people?

Josh Wigler: So we didn't know that this was, you know, kind of an open secret, at least among the Targaryen Kings. 

Katey Rich: Got it. Okay. 

Josh Wigler: That this is something that was foreseen by Aegon the Conqueror himself and that this was an added motivator for why he conquered Westeros to begin with. I think that the, the narrative, and even as it's presented in _Fire and Blood_, the book, um, in no small part, because the perspective of the book is coming from someone who doesn't have all the facts. Who doesn't have a Targaryen to interview, even, you know, um, that this is completely excluded from any source material that Martin has published thus far. So the entirety of the fact that this, this links back as far back and, and, um, Viserys is gonna, is gonna name, I believe he name drops, Aenar Targaryen who is Daenys the Dreamer's father. He's the, the, uh, the Targaryen patriarch that flees Valyria, um, uh, before The Doom with about a decade plus to go before The Doom, that the dagger once belonged to him and who it belonged to before that is a mystery. The ancient associations with this prophecy. This is, this is new information for sure. 

Katey Rich: Okay. But Daenerys did know this prophecy and that was part of her like whole march back to Westeros. 

Josh Wigler: I have to, I I'm the way that it played out in season two of when she goes to the House of the Undying, uh, and The way that, that plays in the book, very, very different. Great in the book, not so great on the show, uh, I think is the interesting, okay, is the popular take and I think the right take. Um, and in the book, the House of the Undying sequence shows us the, the prophecy. We get the prophecy there. 

Katey Rich: Got it. Okay. Um, okay. 

Josh Wigler: But I think it's still murky. I think it's still, it's still unclear and as with all things prophecy in this world, uh, there's many, many different meanings that could be gleaned from it. Uh, and what Danny exactly takes from that, um, I think is, is still, is still up in the air as far as the books are concerned at the very least. Um, she certainly reads it in the show as this is her destiny. She is, she is supposed to do this. Um, but we're getting this from Viserys to Rhaenyra, of look at this prophecy and tell me that this is not really important to make sure that we are protecting. You are, you are my political headache right now and we need to stop this. 

Katey Rich: I love that line. Yeah, very good. So his whole, his whole deal with her that you, you have to marry, but you get to choose who you wanna marry, that's off the table. Uh, that is, that is gone. You're gonna get married to Laenor Valyrian, you're gonna do it without protest. It's the son of the Sea Snake. It's gonna be great for all of us. And you're just gonna say yes. Um, and to her credit Rhaenyra says, all right, well then if I'm gonna do that, what are you gonna do about Otto Hightower? Cause it comes up in her conversation with Alicent that that's how this information about her, this scandal that's breaking out, um, came to the king. And she is the one who, if Viserys is already kind of like, you know, you know, he's, he's feeling the wind in the, in the air, uh, about Hightower. She's really calling the shot of this guy's gonna stop at nothing to see that his family has power over everything. I'll do my duty, but you have to do yours. You have to protect the realm from this guy. 

Yeah. I mean, I, it was kinda impressive how quickly she was like, okay, fine marry this guy. Like I recognize that my options are kind of limited at this point.

Josh Wigler: Like, okay, well I've seen enough. Uh, and he probably is better than everybody else who I met. So, you know. 

Katey Rich: Yeah, and she's smart enough politically to know that, like, that really is what has to happen. I do you think that the dagger reveal and the prophecy like helps tip her in that direction? 

Josh Wigler: I think it may, may help ground her in some of the, the responsibility of the throne. It's such an X factor. Uh, I mean really every time that the dagger in the prophecy comes up, Katey, I am just kind of at the edge of my seat of like, are you White Walkering this show? Is this happening? Are we Night Kinging? Are we gonna Night King this show? 

Katey Rich: Uh, wait, what does that mean? What are we talking about? 

Josh Wigler: Wait, I'm, I'm nervous that there is some big White Walker component to the, to the story. 

Katey Rich: Cause of the ice? Because it, because it bringing in _Song and of Ice and Fire?_

Josh Wigler: Well, just that this is, this is the vision. This is the prophecy that, uh, Westeros is gonna- humanity is going to be ended by this great icy, horrible threat from, from far beyond if we are not ready for. Uh, and we know that that comes to bear in _Game of Thrones_. It's just being brought up so often on this show that I just wonder if George R.R. Martin doesn't want another crack at getting that right. 

Katey Rich: Interesting. How would they do that? And have they, you know, 200 years before_ Game of Thrones?_ 

Josh Wigler: I think that there is certainly with like the anthological quality that could come about in, in _House of the Dragon,_ if that's a direction we end up going in, uh that's, you know, that's sort of aspirationally been spoken about. It's nothing that's been confirmed. I think that there's ways to go beyond the Wall. Uh, I think that there's ways to engage some of that stuff in the greater _Game of Thrones_ franchise. And I think that that while, _House of the Dragon_ is, uh, rightly in its quality, restoring a lot of, you know, goodwill in this franchise, I feel like that's still just way too thorny. Uh, I think we start getting into that territory and I think people are gonna be very, very reticent, not to the degree that like 16 million people who watched episode three are gonna be dropping off in mass, but I do think that there will be a lot of, uh, rolled eyes at the very least if that's the direction they're going. I don't think it is, but I'm nervous every single time this prophecy is brought up.

Katey Rich: Because I think they've done a really good job of getting away from the _Game of Thrones _comparisons really quickly. Like obviously every episode we're getting Baratheons and Starks and stuff like that. But like these characters, I don't care about Jon Snow right now. Yeah. Like I don't really want to think about all of that stuff. I'd love to go see, um, Winterfell again and all of that stuff. Um, but I think for them to go back into White Walkers, especially in season one, or maybe ever would just be kind of inviting all of that back again. 

Josh Wigler: Oh gosh. And I, I mean, I'd be furious. Like, I do think I'd be really upset and I don't think I want that, uh, I wanna stay locked in on the story cause of the story that's being told is very, very compelling in its own reign. It doesn't need any of that, doesn't need any of that as far as I'm concerned. Um, but Viserys is gonna fire Otto. Uh, you know, he's gonna, he's gonna get the he's he's got this very, very strong council from Rhaenyra who obviously is invested in this man not being around anymore. It seems like, certainly from her perspective, this guy does have good sources. Uh, you know, the sources are, are not all the way wrong. Um, and he's spying on me and he's trying to do significant damage to me and this man should not be around anymore. And I think that it's the final push that Viserys needs. Uh, he evokes this ancient history. He evokes the death of his own father, um, Baelon The Brave, uh, who is the rider of, uh, Vhagar, who is one of the original OG conquest dragons who we've heard a couple of times, uh, has been evoked on the show thus far. 

Katey Rich: He's the one who's still around, right? 

Josh Wigler: Still around, still alive. Uh, just a whereabouts unknown at this current moment in time. Um, and in that five day span that his father was, uh, so strong at the height of his power, he dies. Um, I, I think in the, in the text and I, I, I didn't clock it exactly on the show it's of, I think he has like, appendicitis is, is what kills him, um, in the book and he just, you know, kind of drops dead effectively. Um, and in that five day span, Otto Hightower, uh, gets anointed to be Hand of the King to Jharas Targaryen, the, the king who proceeded, um, uh, Viserys. Yeah. Uh, and in that five day span, this is what Viserys is wondering, he is like, is that when you realize that you had a path to the Iron Throne, is that when things warped for you. He's just really reading him for filth on his way out the door.

Katey Rich: Well, I wondered if he was accusing Otto of having a role in all of this. Like, is he accusing him of like conspiring against them? 

Josh Wigler: If that is how he is thinking about this and he doesn't just order this man immediately imprisoned, then Viserys really sucks as king. 

Katey Rich: That's true. Okay. Fair enough. 

Josh Wigler: But Katey, I think that that's an option worth considering. 

Katey Rich: That Viserys is really this bad at it?

Josh Wigler: Yeah. I don't think that that's off the table. Um, but, uh, but Otto is, uh, he's very lucky. He's very lucky that all he gets here is, uh, stripped of his responsibilities as hand of the king. Uh, so it is the, it is the very rare outcome on _Game of Thrones_ where somebody is just fired outright and that's it and not killed.

Katey Rich: I mean, I was gonna say, we, we don't wanna lose Rhys Ifans on the show and I, I don't think we do, but we all know of _Game of Thrones_ that like, just because you like an actor doesn't mean that they're gonna stick around. So no, that might not mean Otto's around for the rest of the season even. 

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Uh, so I, I think, uh, you know, he is, he is listed as core cast member, series regular, uh, I think even potentially with the prestigious and credit, if I am not mistaken.

Katey Rich: Yeah. Well it's like the, the, the first three it's like Paddy Considine, Rhys Ifans, and, and Matt Smith and just like, oh, all the men, I see. But I was like, okay, fine the women are getting recast. Like I understand, this is gonna happen. 

Josh Wigler: Right. Uh, so I think, uh, to be determined on whether or not we see him again, uh, but obviously this is a very big move how Alicent is going to receive this, how the rest of the realm will receive, um, the, uh, the, the removal of Viserys's hand. Who will step in, um, how long will, will this go? Is this a permanent move or is the next person who talks to, Viserys gonna change his mind as it seems happens quite often with this guy? Uh, I think it's a, it's a big unknown. Um, final scene of the episode, Katey is one of the maesters coming to Rhaenyra in her quarters with moon tea from the king. It will rid you of any unwanted consequences. Um, yeah. 

Katey Rich: Way harsh. Yeah. Yeah. But also practical on not, not a bad decision, uh, at this point. I don't think she wants to have Ser Criston's baby.

Josh Wigler: No, but I think it, to me, it, it, it strikes me as, despite the fact that Rhaenyra and Viserys walked away from this most recent conversation, somewhat at least on the same page, they're both kind of like going off to do what the other wants of them. Right. She says, okay, I'll marry your pick. You have to fire your hand. He says, okay, done deal. Um, that I think that this, this signals to me, still some level of mistrust. That the conversation, that he's not, he's not fully believing Alicent's belief in Rhaenyra. Um, taking no chances in this moment. I think that that's really important as a thematic takeaway. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. I mean, he doesn't know about Ser Criston, so, you know, presumably this is him saying, like we're not having this full Targaryen blood baby right now.

Josh Wigler: Right. Not happening, not happening. 

Katey Rich: Um, yeah. As a show, like you keep saying Viserys, he, he pays attention enough to get some things, right? 

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Yeah. He's he's yeah, he's reading the synopsis at the very least, but he's maybe, uh, skipping the actual episodes. Uh, so I'm not sure. 

Katey Rich: Um, he's listening to the podcast recap.

Josh Wigler: He's listening... he's like I watched _Game of Thrones._ I think my life is fine. I don't need to see it again, but I am curious as to what's happening in Westeros. 

Katey Rich: You guys can just tell me what's going on. Yeah. 

Josh Wigler: I'll just listen. I'll just listen. Well, that's it. I think for this episode of _House of the Dragon_ and _Still Watching_ as a result. Episode four in the books, Katey. Four weeks of _House of the Dragon_ down. Next week, we're hitting the halfway point already.

Katey Rich: Wow. I'm having such a good time. And like, honestly talking about this with you makes me enjoy the show even more. Like, I think it certainly has its ups and downs. It's not always the lightest viewing, but like I said, in the beginning, like I think the character focus of this really made me feel invested in all these people more than I have been so far.

Josh Wigler: It's been a really exciting time to kind of see people get excited about this world again, uh, and, you know, get like grossed out and repulsed for all the right reasons. And you know, what does become the subject of just incredible internet scrutiny has been very fun for me as an onlooker. And also I'm really loving living with the sense of dread of waiting to see how the, the, the royal you are going to react to some of the things that the royal creators of this show have up their sleeve. Uh, it's fun. It's a fun time on TV right now, for sure. Uh, and I'm, I'm so glad that you enjoyed it. 

Katey Rich: Given that they got rid of Mushroom, like, are you having increasing faith in the creators of the show for taking the good stuff from the book and maybe ditching what you didn't wanna see?

Josh Wigler: I am happy with most of the adaptation choices. Like I'm, I'm pretty happy with most of the, the zigging where they could have zagged, uh, according to, according to the text. Uh, I think I'm good to not see Mushroom, I think is, is a, is a, is a good, fine choice. Um, I think that some of the... it's interesting because I think that there's been a lot of different takes on the pacing of the show. Like we're, we're blitzing through the years here. Uh, you know, four years have passed over the course of four episodes is just a, a huge swath of time, and yet I think that there are also thoughts, there's a school of thought that the show is a little slower. I think, you know, once again, to give voice to what Jason had written in, uh, for this week's podcast. Um, so it's a little bit of, I think that there's still a degree to which a show of the size of _House of the Dragon_ and a _Game of Thrones_ franchise with just that level of pedigree behind it, it's a little like damned if you do damned, if you don't. Um, it's a hard book to adapt. They have adapted like three pages of the book so far at this point. They're going through it and really picking things out. But I, I really like the, the I that Ryan Condal and Miguel Sapochnik in coordination with George R.R. Martin is a really close collaborator on this, um, like what they're cherry picking and what they're choosing to, to bring from the text and, and put on screen. That moment at the beginning of the episode, the joust between, uh, you know, the joust in quotes, it's a, it's a full on death match between these two people fighting over Rhaenyra. It's, it's such an aside in the book. So there, there have been a few of those. The entirety of this long night through King's Landing is an aside in the book. Um, I'm, I'm really, I'm really, uh, it makes me wanna reread it in a different way. You know, when I, when I went back in the lead up for this show, I was reading it really closely to like, get the plot. Now I kind of wanna go back and comb through and are what are like the little nuggets, uh, that the creators are really latching onto that they feel like this is gonna be a big scene if we can blow this out. So, yeah, I'm happy with it, Katey. I'm, I'm really happy with the adaptation so far. 

Katey Rich: Yeah. I'm so glad. It feels like it's pleasing people like me who know, um, you know, not nothing but not a lot. Yeah. Uh, and people who know everything, so that's about as ideal as you can get. 

Josh Wigler: I have a question for the book readers out there. Are you enjoying the adaptation? Uh, was this a good episode for, for you? Cause I think that the Criston Cole of it all and Daemon and Rhaenyra, this was highly anticipated stuff. Did it land for you if you read the book? If you haven't read the book, how did it land for you? We wanna know stillwatchingpod@gmail.com. You can send your feedback in, we'll get to it on the next podcast here on _House of the Dragon_ episode five is what's coming next. That one is titled "We Light the Way," uh, the way to what, uh, is my question. We shall find out in one week's time. Katey, where can people find you? What do you got going on? 

Katey Rich: Well, you can find me singing the song, "We Know the Way" from _Moana_, which is what popped into my head. When you, um, listed the name of next week's episode, we'll see how similar they wind up being. Um, you can find me, uh, at _Vanity Fair_ on the _Little Gold Men_ podcast where we're in the throes of Emmy and festival season, there's a lot going on. And I'm on Twitter @kateyrich. K A T E Y R I C H. 

Josh Wigler: Amazing. I'm @roundhoward on Twitter. I am writing recaps and more for vf.com here on the _House of the Dragon_ beat, so make sure that you're checking all of that out and make sure you're back for the podcast next week with our episode five recap. Of course, special shout to our man behind the scenes, Dave Gonzales for editing this podcast. We appreciate all of the incredible work that Dave is doing making this podcast possible. Until next time everybody, take care. Byebye.