Katie Nicholl: Welcome to special coverage from _Vanity Fair's Dynasty_, as you've most certainly heard by now, Queen Elizabeth II has passed away. It is an enormous moment. Her reign, spanning more than 70 years, was the longest in British history and covered a remarkable set of transitions in the world. 

Erin Vanderhoof: In that time period, the British Empire collapsed, society in the UK was transformed. There have been multiple technological revolutions. Radio, television, the internet, and enormous schisms within the royal family itself, bringing its very existence into question. And yet through all of it, the monarchy as personified by Queen Elizabeth has held firm as a symbol of power and stability to many people around the world. 

Katie Nicholl: I'm Katie Nicholl. 

Erin Vanderhoof: And I'm Erin Vanderhoof. 

Katie Nicholl: We've both covered the royal family extensively for _Vanity Fair _and told their stories over 10 episodes here on _Dynasty. _Today, we are talking just a few hours after the queen passed.

Erin Vanderhoof: So Katie, I think the place to start is to talk about her life. She was born before the stock market crashed, uh, before the Great Depression. She lived through, you know, the rise of fascism across European countries. She was a member of the auxiliary territorial service, so she served in World War II. She, when she first became queen, some of the World War II rations were still in place. And that was, that was the world that she became the queen into. While she was queen, she saw the first female Prime Minister in Margaret Thatcher. How did her personality shape this enormously important span in British history.

Katie Nicholl: Well, Erin, I think I can probably sum up in one word and that was a word that came up so much when we were making our podcast; duty. I think from the early days when she was Princess Elizabeth and, and then knew that her role one day would be to become queen of the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth, the queen had an innate understanding, not only of who she was, but the role that she would take on. She did that with an absolute commitment to the people of the United Kingdom and the people of the Commonwealth. And when she made that pledge when she was just 21 years old, a young girl speaking for the first time in South Africa, she pledged that her whole life, whether it be long or short, would be devoted to duty. And she did that. I mean, if you think the last photograph of her that was taken just a couple of days ago, was her kissing hands or welcoming in the new Prime Minister. It was duty to the end, duty hours before she finally passed away. 

Erin Vanderhoof: What do you think her passing means for the UK itself? It's clearly a moment of great political turmoil. Things feel so unsettled and it's in the air. How will they, and how will you as a citizen mourn and move forward? 

Katie Nicholl: Well, it, it is a time of great flux, isn't it? I, I remember speaking to someone who, who said to me, wo betide we lose the queen now. You know, we have Russia at war with Ukraine, we're post Brexit still trying to find our feet. In this really uncertain political climate we have a new Prime Minister, we have a cost of living crisis. I mean, the UK is not in good shape. And yet, I think with the queen there as our Head of State, there was a sense that everything was going to be okay because while the queen was here and for those record breaking seven decades that we had her, everything was okay. I, I'm just thinking back, Erin, as, as we're talking to the Coronavirus pandemic and this, and the speech that she delivered to the nation. 

Queen Elizabeth II [Archival Audio]: I hope in the years to come, everyone will be able to take pride in how they responded to this challenge. And those who come after us will say the Britains of this generation were as strong as any. The pride in who we are is not a part of our past, it defines our present and our future. 

Katie Nicholl: She gave us that assurance. She told us we'd meet again. 

Queen Elizabeth II [Archival Audio]: We should take comfort that while we may have more still to endure, better days will return. We will be with our friends again. We will be with our families again. We will meet again. 

Katie Nicholl: I think we are all mourning. You know, the grandmother of the nation, however you want to describe her, but that person who was the thread that connected this crazy tapestry that we call life and so I feel a great sense of loss personally. I feel a great sense of shock and, and sadness. Sadness for the house of Windsor and the grief that it is going through. Prince Charles has lost both of his parents in 18 months. Um, it's, it's, it's gonna be a tough time.

Erin Vanderhoof: I, I liked that you brought up that speech from the Coronavirus pandemic and we'll meet again because I think that that came at a moment when almost nobody knew how to respond to a totally new situation. The thing that the queen realized and, you know, she has a lot of great speech writers and a lot of great support around her, but the thing that they realize is that no, we have gone through this moment before. In fact, the Queen's life was shaped by World War II and I think by making that comparison in a really, in a really thoughtful way, I think it had resonance throughout the world. Like there is no other speech that, you know, at least in that I was exposed to, so, you know, in the English language that came anywhere close to being that memorable to me, or as important. And I think that that speaks to how Americans do view the queen. That she is a cultural figure primarily, so, you know, I think Charles is really going to, he's gonna have a lot to live up to, King Charles now. 

Katie Nicholl: He is, he is and we know that he is now going to be known as King Charles III. Um, it was actually the prime minister who, who hinted at that in her speech and that was confirmed, you know, minutes later by Clarence House, because of course he could have chosen another name, but I think it was important to him, it is important to him that he is King Charles III, because I think Erin what's so important in all of this, and I agree with everything you said is continuity. We looked to the queen for continuity. We are proud to be Elizabethans. Um, we, we are, we are proud to have lived under her reign and to have reaped the benefit of her experience and everything that she lived through and, and learned and passed onto us. And in terms of the next reign, um, and what that's going to look like, Erin, you and I spent, I think most of _Dynasty,, _didn't we reflecting on what this new reign will look like. I've just written a book on what this new reign is going to look like. You know, _The New Royals_ that, that is what it's all about. And we've been talking, haven't we, about this, this transition of power, this handing over of power in real time, we've seen it. We, we witnessed it at the Platinum Jubilee celebrations. We've witnessed it at other key moments too, and I think that, I think that Charles is ready for this role. I think he's prepared his entire life has, has been preparation for it. He is the longest serving Prince of Wales, um, over 50 years in training for the top job and so while his reign will likely be a short reign, certainly in comparison to his mother's, I don't think that means it will necessarily be an ineffective reign. I think Charles is going to want to move quickly, decisively. I mean, I'm told he has the next five years already mapped out. 

Erin Vanderhoof: The next five years already mapped out. Yeah. I mean, I do. I think the things that do give me a little bit more optimism is, we've always said this, throughout _Dynasty_ I think the thing that we've come back to a lot, um, in talking about the Commonwealth specifically, but also talking Charles' own passions is just like how much he cares about embracing people of other faiths and a multicultural Britain. And I think that those two things focusing on that will really, I think, help deal with some of the, you know, emotional frustrations going on, but then as you mentioned before, there's a historic crisis and you know, there, they're just, it's so much more than just feelings. So how do you think that this is gonna affect the political side of things?

Katie Nicholl: Well, I think when we're talking about politics and the monarchy, we know that the monarch cannot be political. I mean, of course there was a time, many centuries ago when, when the king or queen was a poli- could be a political figure. But, you know, I think one of the great successes of Queen Elizabeth II, and there have been many, was that she rose above politics. I mean, she had 15 Prime Ministers during her reign, you know, three of whom were women. The first of course was Winston Churchill, and so she, you know, she was hugely experienced in politics. She read the papers in her red books right up until her death. I mean, she knew every, every government secret. She was abreast of all the legislation. Um, I mean, she was known as reader number one. She, she was remarkable in that respect, and yet we knew very little about her political opinions and about what she really thought about Brexit. And she was incredibly careful not to, not to give anything away because she knew that being politically neutral was crucial to her success as the monarch. Now, when we look at Charles, we see a Prince of Wales who has been quite political, and I dunno whether that's political with a small P or a big P, but he has certainly taken on political issues. He has lobbied ministers, so I think there is going to be a fundamental shift in all of this. 

Erin Vanderhoof: We'll see if Charles in those one to one meetings, that's the thing that he's going to be doing, he will sit down next week with the new Prime Minister and you know, he, we're in the middle of an energy crisis and he's a person who knows a lot about, you know, at least the future of energy should be green. So you- we'll see how useful that is, but we'll no, we won't, we won't see how useful that is, but- 

Katie Nicholl: Well, he's, I think, I think he's going to very much be our, our king of, of climate awareness, our eco king, our green king, um, you know, that will see him- I mean, he's doing it because he's passionate about it and he's been passionate about it for many years. I mean, Prince Charles was talking about the dangers of climate change long before the rest of us sort of woke up and smelt the coffee. That is also going to be an important way of him connecting with gen Z as well, because, you know, inevitably this moment is going to raise questions about the monarchy. The future of the monarchy, the relevance of the monarchy. And there are going to be many people, I think, particularly many young people asking, well, what does the monarch actually do? What's the role of, of, of the king or, or the queen? And I think climate change and, and everything that, that we know the Prince of Wales is, is passionate about, will resonate with that younger generation and I think in turn, stand him in good stead. 

Erin Vanderhoof: I, I think that Charles has proven himself just even by picking climate change as the thing he wanted to be associated with, he has proven that he is really... that they're in terms of being a national sort of motivator or icon, he's gonna be really great. But I think the other thing that is really in the air right now is whether the royal family is still going to work as a group of people all representing the interests. And I think Meghan and Harry's outspokenness was something that, you know, could have appealed to young people, but at the same time, it did really go against some of that, you know, the fundamental purpose of the monarchy. And, you know, I think the queen really chose no you're in, or you're out, that's not the kind of change we're going to embrace, but will, will Charles have to kind of take a different attitude towards the press? Will he have to become a little bit more unspoken or will that be too controversial? 

Katie Nicholl: Well, I dunno if it'll be controversial, but I think it's quite different to reign back in isn't it? I mean, it it's worth pointing out that the queen has never given an, an interview. We've heard, we've heard her voice. I mean, we've heard her narrate, we heard that most recently on that wonderful documentary that the BBC made to celebrate her 70 years on this throne, but she's never sat down and given an interview in the way that Charles has done. I mean, he has given several and I, I think times changed. The monarchy has, has had to move with the times and Charles has, you know, his aids have realized a while ago that television was going to be a very important medium. And you know, it is one that, that he's embraced and we see William embracing as well. So I, I don't think we'll see any reigning back on that, but I, I certainly think that now that he is king, we will see, we will see him far more cautious when it, when it comes to discussing or getting involved or commentating on anything that might be deemed political. And in fact, Charles himself said in a documentary, a television documentary, um, the sit down interview to mark his 70th, uh, birthday, that he absolutely understood that when he is king his role and what he is able to say will change and I, and I think that's what we're going to see. 

Erin Vanderhoof: We'll have more in just a moment.

How, how do you, are you thinking about the last few months and how the things that have been going on in the family and how the queen has made her wishes clear? 

Katie Nicholl: Well, I, I it's, it's been a difficult few months. I mean, it's been a difficult couple of years. You know, I think there was a point when the queen just withdrew from it all, when she just had had enough. She'd had enough of, of the scandals, she'd had enough of the feuding, she'd had enough of William and Harry falling out. She'd certainly had enough of Harry and Meghan giving interviews. And, um, I, I think there, I think she really did near that point towards the end of her life just, um, just decided that she'd had enough of it. She, she has taken on multiple roles during her reign. I mean, obviously her role as monarch, but in tandem with that being a mother, being a wife, being a grandmother, being a great grandmother. And I think family has, family is so important, family was so important to the queen. This whole idea of the modern royal family, um, was in part its success and I think that's, that's what you saw today in those images of her family arriving at Balmoral. We knew that Charles and the Duchess of Cornwall were already there, but the way that the Duke of Cambridge hurried to be there, um, we don't know whether he actually got there in time to see his grandmother before she died. Um, but he, he, he jumped in the car and drove his uncle, Prince Edward and his wife, Sophie Wessex to Balmoral. I mean, this was, yes, it was the royal family, but they suddenly felt like a real family. And I think that has that, that is at the heart of, of their success and their popularity. And why we've dedicated an entire podcast to talking about this dynasty, um, because at its heart, it, it is a, it is a family with a monarch at its helm.

Erin Vanderhoof: So you mentioned the Duchess of Cornwall who you, you know, clearly were speaking about our Queen Consort Camilla, but the one surprise that I was not anticipating is that the Cambridges would be the Duke and Duchess of Cornwall now, uh, that, that was a surprise to me. And you know, it, it had me thinking about, do we think that today could have possibly changed anything between William and Harry and how they're gonna get along? We've already seen them not bury the hatchet in the memory of their mother and their grandfather. Do we think that, that this can make a difference?

Katie Nicholl: Well, you have to wonder don't you Erin, as they are both at Balmoral tonight in old bedrooms that they would've slept in as, as young boys at the castle where they learned of their mother's death. I mean this week marks 25 years since the funeral of Princess Diana and yet, despite that milestone moment, there was no coming together. There was no softening of the rift. There were a few hundred yards away from each other in Windsor and didn't see each other. Now they've been forced together once again, united in grief. Forced together, you know, across the Queen's death bed. Um, if this isn't an opportunity to, to thaw these relations and to, to make some headway, then I, I don't know if there ever will be. And, um, you know, let, let's see, let's see over the coming days, but, um, I do know that it was a source of, of great pain and hurt to her majesty the queen that, that Harry and William hadn't managed to sort out their problems. And I think as exhausted as she was by the turmoil of all these family scenarios, you know, that was, that was the one that, that really broke her heart actually. 

Erin Vanderhoof: So tell me what you do know about the titles. I know Duke and Duchess of Cornwall is now their name on their social media profiles, but you know, what else is gonna happen?

Katie Nicholl: Well, they, they technically will also become the Prince of Wales and the Princess of Wales. Um, that is for the, the king to hand that title over. Um, of course the queen bestowed that title on Charles and he was invested at the castle of Caernarfon in Wales. Um, you know, I think it's unlikely we will have a, a similar investiture for William, but I, I have no doubt that he will be the Prince of Wales, which of course means, um, the Duchess of Cornwall as she is now known will, will be the Princess of Wales. And, um, you know, no one knows better than Kate that those are very sizable shoes to fill. So with this transition, with, with this change of reign um, yes, comes a whole issue of titles and don't forget Erin, now that Charles is king, this is now the moment that Harry's children, because he is the son of the sovereign, technically should be prince and princess. So Archie can now become Prince Archie and Princess Lilibet bit by law, they're entitled to those titles. Whether or not they are bestowed, well, we have to wait and see. 

Erin Vanderhoof: I think that this takes us back to the conversations that we had about the Oprah interview and how that all went down, which was such a, uh, a, a mess. It's, it's hard to know exactly what's, what's gonna come next with that. You know, ultimately at the end of the day, that decision's up to up to Charles, but, and I- everything we know about what he thinks, you know, the, the famous memo about the slim down monarchy makes me think like he, he isn't gonna want that, but you know who- that, that's one place where it's just really hard to know what's gonna happen in the future.

Katie Nicholl: Well, I can tell you, Erin, that I, I know that a slim down monarchy is absolutely what Charles wants, and it's also what William wants. And I think what's so interesting and what I, what I really uncover in, in _The New Royals_ is just how aligned they are. Um, this notion of sovereignty has absolutely bonded the two of them, and they are very much on the same page. They're on the same page when it comes to the future of the monarchy, the top tier of monarchy, um, you know how they're going to handle the sort of peripheral royals. The Wessexes, Princess Anne, what roles are they going to be for them? You know, is Charles's vision of a slim down monarchy to, to exclude them from royal duties. Well, we'll have to wait and see, but we know that Charles is going to carve out his own reign. He is going to want to put his own stamp on being king, and we are going to see things done differently. I think Charles recognizes, as does William, that in order for the monarchy to survive, they have to do things differently. This is now the end of the second Elizabethan reign and the start of a new reign. It's going to look different and I think people don't like change, we don't warm to change. The queen is all, any of us have known, so, um, change will happen, but it will happen in a, in a very deliberate and carefully choreographed way is, is my is my suspicion. 

Erin Vanderhoof: I, I mean, I think that one place where the family has to change, they have really no choice in certain ways, and we just dunno what it's gonna look like yet, but is in the, the Commonwealth. I think that that's one place where, you know, William and Kate's tour the spring, you know, doing exactly what the queen and Prince Philip did, you know, driving around in a military parade, just didn't sit right with the rest of the world and so they have to start doing things in a different way. And I think the Commonwealth seems like a place where changes are going to be welcome in a certain way and I'm really curious to see the way that the Commonwealth is gonna be welcomed into the mourning, but also what Charles is gonna is gonna do as the, like the, the way he's going to be the Head of the Commonwealth, which he is now.

Katie Nicholl: And, and of course, well, he, yes, he, he is the Head of the Commonwealth. That was, that was something else that the queen put in place before her death. You know, not just the matter of queen cons, Camilla. It was very important to her that the Commonwealth didn't die with her. That, that Charles was the next Head of the Commonwealth and he was unanimously, um, voted to, to be so. But yes, there are definitely challenges ahead and you point out that, that tour of the Caribbean, um, which was not an easy tour for the Cambridges. And, um, I, you know, the, the royals understand that there are going to be, I think, uh, difficult waters to navigate in the future. I think there will be many who feel that, that with the queen's reign an element of the Commonwealth will die out. It's up to Charles and then William to work out how to breathe new life into it. And, um, again, we talk about change, we talk about a new reign and we will, we will see evidence of all of this over the coming months and years. 

Erin Vanderhoof: I think the queen's reign in England showed that the hereditary monarchy can be a, you know, financially stable and fun part of a modern democratic society by being as quintessentially, British as _Paddington_ and _James Bond_. Uh, as she, you know, showed in the Jubilee and at the, um, Olympics 10 years ago, the role of the hereditary monarchy is to, to kind of be that person who can serve as the figurehead for a country that is changing every day otherwise. 

Katie Nicholl: Yeah, I think that's, I think that's true and I think, you know, Charles also has very big shoes to fill as he mourns the death of his mother, and we mark the start of a new reign. I believe he'll work tirelessly because he, he is an incredibly hard worker and the issues that he's campaigned on are issues that he will continue to, to campaign for when he is king. But I think beyond that, he believes passionately in, in the crown, he believes in the monarchy, he believes that it has a place and a role in modern society, and he's going to show us how. 

Erin Vanderhoof: We've discussed some of the longer term issues that King Charles III is gonna face, but Katie, what's gonna happen over the next couple of days.

Katie Nicholl: Well, we will hear the King's speech. We will hear from King Charles III. He will address the nation. Um, and then he will embark on a mini tour, I suppose, uh, of, um, of the United Kingdom. He will visit Scotland, Northern Ireland, and Wales. The London Bridge plans have been, um, replaced by Operation Unicorn, which are the plans in place should the queen die in Scotland. And so we will see the queen, um, lying in state in both Edinburgh and in London. She will be moved from Edinburgh to London, um, in the coming days. We've 10 official days of mourning and she will lie in state at Westminster Hall. And, um, I think we can expect to see cues sneaking through the streets of London as people come to see their queen, um, and to pay their respects. And, um, I think that is going to be an incredibly moving and, um, and poignant site. I think the, the capital will, will just come to a standstill for that. Of course, we're going to have a state funeral, Erin, the first state funeral in this country since the funeral of Winston Churchill, the queen's first prime minister, before she makes her final journey back to Winsor Castle to St. George's chapel, where she will be interned in the King George VI fault along with her beloved, Prince Philip, the late Duke of Edinburgh. I'm told, there was a reason she didn't want him entered in the vault at his own funeral. He's at St. George's Chapel still, and that was because she knew that she wouldn't be long afterwards and she wanted to be united with the duke in death and they will be laid to rest in the vault where her father and her mother and her sister also lie. So that will be the queen's final journey, and, um, I think we, we now prepare ourselves for 10 unprecedented days of, of mourning and coming to terms with the loss of the greatest monarch, um, this country has ever seen. 

Erin Vanderhoof: Katie, it just hit me. Wow. The, the tears are coming for the first time. I just, yeah. Wow. I mean, that, that, you know, that what the king used to always say is like, just us four, and like, you know, she's been separated from her family for so long, you know, living without them. So, wow, that really, that really hit me emotionally. 

Katie Nicholl: Yeah. It's certainly going to be historic. It's going to be eventful. Um, we will all remember the coming 10 days because in our lifetime we've never seen anything like it, but I think as the United Kingdom, as the world comes to terms with the loss of the platinum queen, the record breaking Queen Elizabeth II, this is a moment, yes, to look to the future, but for now to mourn a remarkable woman, monarch, wife, mother, grandmother, great grandmother. Of course, thoughts will turn to the future to many of the themes that we've discussed across the series of _Dynasty_, but for now we mourn the life of Queen Elizabeth II. This has been special coverage from _Vanity Fair's Dynasty_. I'm Katie Nicholl. 

Erin Vanderhoof: And I'm Erin Vanderhoof. _Dynasty_ is produced by _Vanity Fair_ in partnership with Somethin Else. This episode was engineered by Dave Gonzales and the theme song was composed by Wooly Music. Fact checking was done by Rob Dozier. We had special help today from Paula V Kotomatsu and TJ Raphael. _Dynasty_ was conceived by _Vanity Fair_ Executive Editor, Claire Howorth. Claire and Katey Rich are staff editorial consultants. You can listen to all the previous episodes of _Dynasty_ on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. For more Dynasty visit vf.com/Dynasty. And you can follow _Vanity Fair_ on Instagram and Twitter @vanityfair. Thanks so much for listening.