Katey Rich: Hello and welcome to Little Gold Men, the award season podcast from Vanity Fair. Speaker 2: It's such an honor to present this next award. Speaker 3: And here are the nominees- Speaker 4: And the Oscar goes to- Speaker 5: And the Oscar goes to- Speaker 6: And I can't deny the fact that you like me, right now. Audience: [laughs] Speaker 6: You like me. Speaker 8: I'm the king of the world. Speaker 9: There's a mistake. Moonlight, you guys won best picture. Audience: Woo. Woo. Katey Rich: I am Katey Rich and I'm here for this interview episode with both David Canfield- David Canfield: Hi. Katey Rich: ... and Rebecca Ford. Rebecca Ford: Hello. Katey Rich: That is because you guys did the two interviews we have on this week's episode. Uh both with stars of huge Toronto Film Festival highlights that, lucky for us who weren't there, are opening now and we get to go see in theaters. Um, so, first, Rebecca, we're going to hear your conversation with Thuso Mbedu, who is the star of The Woman King, alongside Viola Davis. Um, the star of a box office sensation that's already out in theaters, um, and people who saw her on The Underground Railroad I think have been watching her as a star on the rise for a long time. But, uh, The Woman King gives her such an incredible showcase. Rebecca Ford: Yeah, it's pretty incredible. This is her first movie. Like, she's done a bunch of TV but- Katey Rich: [laughs] Rebecca Ford: ... this her, um, you know, first appearance in a film, and what a way to go in. Um, you know, she talks a lot about how she had to train for this role, you know, 'cause she really had to, like, physically become a warrior, basically. And- and what went into that, and how it was so bonding for the group. Katey Rich: Yeah, you would never guess, because she has the screen presence that lights up the entire time, and a lot of the people in the cast really do too. So, it's the kinda thing where you can imagine someone newer to acting would get overwhelmed by, uh, Lashana Lynch, or John Boyega, or Viola Davis, but she holds every fray when you, you know, that training paid off, 'cause you believe her as someone who could destroy you, honestly, with a single kick. David Canfield: [laughs] Rebecca Ford: Yeah, she really ... I think it really also just shows her range, you know? I think she can probably do anything. And- and we do talk a little bit about what she's looking for next. She apparently is, um, attaching to a sci-fi project. So, that'll be sort of her next thing. Um, but she- she also revealed that she thinks Viola is, like, so funny, which I thought- Katey Rich: [laughs] Rebecca Ford: ... um, really nice to hear, because obviously when someone's that much of an icon, they can be kind of intimidating, but apparently they were just laughing it up on set all the time. Katey Rich: Wonderful to hear. Um, let's hear more of your conversation with Thuso Mbedu. Rebecca Ford: So, I'm so excited to welcome Thuso Mbedu today to the podcast. She stars in The Woman King, which was actually her feature film debut after, um, a lot of experience in Television. So, thank you so much for joining us. Thuso Mbedu: Thank you for having me. Rebecca Ford: So, what's it been like to see this movie come out and be such a hit? You know, everyone's talking about it, it did really well at the box office, how do you sort of take that in? Thuso Mbedu: It's exciting. Um, I don't think I'm fully processing or registering it yet. But I'm just happy because everybody involved is so happy, you know, 'cause I witnessed the fight. Like, the minute I- I- I signed on to the roll, I started training. So, had sessions with Gina, I saw her, like, still fighting for it. Um, seeing Viola still fight for it. You know, and then believing in the story so much. And so, getting to a point where people are seeing what it is that we worked on makes me extremely happy. Yeah. Rebecca Ford: Yeah, it feels like it was all worth it, I'm sure. [laughs] Thuso Mbedu: It really was. It really, really was. Rebecca Ford: So, tell me about first signing onto this project. How did it find you in the, in the very beginning. Thuso Mbedu: It was October 2019, I was on a hiatus from the Underground Railroad, so I- I went to LA, and I was just taking general meetings, 'cause, again, I was very, very new to this industry, so my team would constantly organize, you know, general meetings for me. And I had a meeting with Julius Tennon from JuVee Productions, um, which produced the film, um, Viola's husband. And so, he told me about the story about this all female army, you know, fighting for their kingdom, fighting against their oppressors. And what blew my mind was the fact that it's an African story based on a real tribe of an all female army, that I, as a South African, had no clue about. You know, I absolutely fell in love with it, I fell in love with his passion for the story. And from that day on, I told my team, "Please keep track of this, I want an opportunity to audition," you know, and it was October 2020, where I bought the book, The Amazons of the Black Sparta, 'cause I told myself, "I don't know when I'm gonna audition, but, uh, I wanna be ready when it happens." Rebecca Ford: Yeah. Thuso Mbedu: You know, and it's a dense book, I still haven't finished it, 'cause of how dense it is. Um, just started building from that. Finally got the opportunity to audition for it and it was an amazing process. Gina Prince-Bythewood, the director, sat in on the very first audition. I had a creative conversation with Viola the second time. And I had my test shoot and got the role. [laughs] Rebecca Ford: It's so great. And so, you- you mentioned a little bit about the training, but I- I could imagine the- the physical demands of this role seemed pretty intense. It is an action film. Thuso Mbedu: Yeah. Rebecca Ford: And your character goes through a lot. Thuso Mbedu: [laughs] Rebecca Ford: So, tell me what was the plan for you to sort of get up to that warrior-like, uh, [laughs] ability level. Thuso Mbedu: So, it started, um, during the audition process, actually. Because part of the audition was going for fitness and physical test with our stand coordinator, Danny Hernandez, um, who determined whether, who was gonna determine whether I, who was gonna determine whether I could be able to do my own stunts or not. Um, I was very nervous going into it, but he's such, you know, a warm hearted and encouraging human being, so supportive, he got me through the test, obviously gave Gina the nod that, you know, even though I knew nothing, there was hope for me. [laughs] Rebecca Ford: [laughs] Thuso Mbedu: Uh, and then, after getting the role, I decided to put myself [inaudible 00:06:04], because I didn't wanna go into pre-production training starting from zero. Um, so, I went for classes, you know, private sessions, group classes. I'd go, you know, twice a day on days where I could. Gina had private sessions where she joined me as well. And then we- ... I eventually started with Kenzie, who was gonna teach me, like, the weapons training. She was doing the basics as well before we go into pre-production training. That was a lot of fun, working with the bow staff, working with the machete, um, teaching me, you know, basics of punching and kicking and just combat training. And then we started pre-production training now officially, where we were going to go into, you know, choreo, more choreography. We had strength training. I had running training with Jerome Davis, um, I was like in [laughs] Beverly Hills running uphill, sprinting uphill, which is very difficult because, um, back in high school, way back when, ah, years, I had to- [laughs] Rebecca Ford: [laughs] Thuso Mbedu: I was more of a long distance runner than, um, you know, short distance. Extremely hard, Gabriela Mclain, we are strength training with her, we were lifting weights, working on flexibility, agility and speed. Because Gina determined that for my character, it wouldn't be realistic for her to take down a six foot man, so we had to build Nawi's speed, so as to make her someone who takes up her opponent with minimal effort. Rebecca Ford: Mm-hmm. Thuso Mbedu: You know, so, yeah, maximum results with minimal effort. And so, yeah, that- that's what the- the training was for [inaudible 00:07:32]. So, even when- when we went to South Africa, we still had all of those sessions minus, um, running training, 'cause Jerome remained in LA. We had, you know, two ... initially, when we got to South Africa, was two hours a day. And I, being paranoid about, you know, my- my martial arts or- or stance choreography, requested an extra hour of training, just for myself. Rebecca Ford: Hm. Thuso Mbedu: Not for everyone else. Just for myself. Rebecca Ford: Mm-hmm. [laughs] Thuso Mbedu: But then they made everyone else get an extra hour. [laughs] Rebecca Ford: Oh, no. [laughs] Thuso Mbedu: But it was fun, we were bonding. We were bonding. [laughs] Rebecca Ford: [laughs] And so, that's the physical aspect, but tell me about how you kinda found the emotional heart of this character? And- and I was also curious if your own, how your own upbringing sort of affected. I know you were raised by your grandmother, and- and it feels like you'd have something in common with this character raised, but, you know, basically raised into a woman by other women. Thuso Mbedu: Yeah. So, um, I think, you know, I had conversations with Gina quite frequently because Nawi's story, being an orphan, you know, who was given away, was one that was very, very close to her. Rebecca Ford: Mm-hmm. Thuso Mbedu: 'Cause Gina was adopted as well. Rebecca Ford: Mm-hmm. Thuso Mbedu: So, in everything in my performance I was super aware of, you know, serving her in the right way, building the character is always, like, you know, the most fun part for me. I do research on, you know, the- the psychology of the character that I'm trying to build. So, yes, you know, she's determined, she knows that she's unwanted. You know, the- the scar that she has on her arm is called the devil's mark by her adoptive father. You know, she's had to take care of her family. Uh, and she's- she's in a space where they're actively trying to sell her off to, into marriage. So, she knows where she stands, but she- she also knows what she aspires to be, and that's to be an Agodjie, a soldier. And in this space, I said to myself, you know, Nawi fears being alone more than death. You know, she fears being unwanted more than death. So, which is why she's willing to go into this army. And so, I googled, you know, the mindset of an assassin, the mindset of a soldier, you know, these different personality types of what it takes to be that type of person. And again, that's part of my favorite part of the process. Rebecca Ford: Hm. Thuso Mbedu: And then just building her emotionally, it is understanding, for me, knowing and having lived, you know, as a darker skinned woman, having had a lighter skinned sister, where ... and I know people didn't intend it to be some type of way. You know, you grow up and all the praises are showered to my sister. She's called beautiful, she's told that she's loved by people, she's the aspirational sister, simply because she's lighter skinned. And as a result, I am deemed the opposite of that, even though I haven't earned it, only because I'm darker skinned. And so, even in that space of the world, of the story that we're telling, it's, oh, these are the- the unwanted. What does that look and feel like? It was easy to tap into that. But then, being surrounded by an amazing group of women, who look like me, who, in this story world, are celebrated for being different, for being powerful, for not being the typical feminine stereotype. You know, um, was- was nice to play with Viola, with Lashana, bouncing ideas off each other constantly. You know, we had a lotta moments that weren't necessarily scripted, but we found, in the moment of play, by just honestly allowing the emotions of the character to find themselves in the space. You know, you do whatever preparation you do in your own time, but when you get on set, you don't want to impose those thoughts onto the character in the moment. You want it to- to just let it be and find itself. And I think that's what we were able to do. Rebecca Ford: And obviously Viola is such a- a force in this industry and such a veteran of it. And I'm, and I'm- I'm sure you learned a million things from her. But what there, was there anything that sort of surprised you about her or working with her? Thuso Mbedu: I think what's most surprising is how funny and how an absolute clown she is. Rebecca Ford: [laughs] Thuso Mbedu: Viola ... 'cause, you know, you watch interviews and people, and even people introduce her, it's this Viola that they've put on the, on a pedestal. Rebecca Ford: Mm-hmm. Thuso Mbedu: Which essentially, to some degree, takes away her humanity. And the first time you meet her, what you meet is her humanity. What you meet is her heart for others, her fight for others. Which also seeps into her work. Her love of what she does, the passion for what she does. There is a reason behind it. It's not just, you know, for her own craze or claim, it's because she generally believes in what she's doing. And so, even when we were on set, I remember we're shooting [inaudible 00:12:18], it's that scene where they come out of the boat and there's that moment of tension between her and Nawi, where she even holds her in the face and she pushes her away, 'cause Nawi said, "If I had not come back for you, you would've been killed." And she says, "Oh, you're the hero." It was that moment. So, it's like this great moment of tension. And so, we're performing, we're performing, and Viola stops herself and she's like, "I don't believe what I'm doing right now." And she takes a beat, and that makes her human, right? Rebecca Ford: Mm-hmm. Thuso Mbedu: Because in our minds, she's gonna be 100% all the time. You know, she's gonna have it figured out all the time. But she said, "No, I need a moment." And then she came right back into it. Which, for us, as those come up after her, we stop and say, "Ha." Rebecca Ford: [laughs] Thuso Mbedu: We don't always have to have it figured out, but we do owe the audience our best at all times, no matter what that looks like. Rebecca Ford: Yeah. And since the film's come out, obviously as I mentioned, it's been a huge success, amazing reviews, a great debut in Toronto at the film festival. And there also was like a conversation on social media about, um, sort of debating if, uh, glorifying the Dahomey, like this was okay because obviously they participated in the slave trade, which is actually part of the story. Um, and I'm curious how you sort of took in that conversation that was happening. Thuso Mbedu: So, for me, you know, um, you take it for what it is. And unfortunately, a lot of the people who have gone so far as to create the hashtag of boycotting the movie, haven't actually watched the movie. Rebecca Ford: Right. Thuso Mbedu: 'Cause like you say, we don't shy away from that in the story. We talk about it. And as Gina explains, in all kingdoms, it's not just the kingdom of Dahomey that participated in the slave trade, you know, in all different clans and cultures all over the world, there would've been someone who was looking out for themselves. You know, in South Africa, we all, we also have our own history of King Shaka Zulu, who tried to take over- Rebecca Ford: Hm. Thuso Mbedu: ... the whole of South Africa. You know? But what the wo- ... what Nanisca, and Izogie, and Amenza stand for in this story is the half of the kingdom that did not approve. Rebecca Ford: Mm-hmm. Thuso Mbedu: So, you know, it's a kingdom that is trying to preserve itself, that is trying to fight for its freedom, but not everyone was a yes man. And so, what are the voices of those who wanted to, better for their land, look like, look and sound like? And again, the- there's creative freedom, because this isn't a documentary. Rebecca Ford: Yeah. Thuso Mbedu: You know, there are documentaries who speak on- on it, hence people being able to say, "This is what happened, this is what happened with ... " but this is not what the story is about. Rebecca Ford: Yeah. Thuso Mbedu: It's celebrating a group a women that has essentially been erased from history, because we grow up knowing all we know, the Greek goddesses and the Amazons who, from my understanding, are made up, and I'm saying it in inverted commas. Rebecca Ford: Mm-hmm. Thuso Mbedu: Um, 'cause just from the research I've- I've- I've seen, they weren't real. And here is a group of women who actually lived and fought and happened to be black, but have been erased to by history. Why is that okay? Rebecca Ford: Yeah. Yeah, I think it's- it's another case of people talking who haven't seen the movie, which happens ev- every year, so. [laughs] Thuso Mbedu: E- every year, exactly. Yeah. Rebecca Ford: Um, so, I- I really do hope, um, many more people go to see it. Because I think you're right, it really does show, it showed me a side of history I wasn't aware of as well. So, I think that's why people are gravitating towards it. Thuso Mbedu: And what- what Gina and Viola also say is that we are human. There is the good, the bad and the ugly. And this is a space that allows for that conversation. Is just that, you know, in this, in this situation people, the people who are against it are choosing to do so in a very disrespectful manner, there's no need for that. 'Cause again, we sit here, we're willing to be taught, we're open to the conversation. We're not saying, "Oh, no, it didn't happen. Don't talk to us about this." We- we want our work to spark conversations. We want people to go watch the movie and then go do their own research. Rebecca Ford: Yeah. Thuso Mbedu: We're not rewriting history. You know, we're telling a story which we believe is powerful and that people can hopefully learn from. But then there's a group of people who just have decided that they don't wanna learn and there's an agenda that they want to push. And it's unfortunate, but the- there are a lot more people celebrating the story for what it is, and we're grateful for that. Rebecca Ford: Yeah, I think that's right. And so, you debuted Toronto, and I know you're still kind of in the midst of promoting the film, which means you get to spend a lotta time with your costars, which I'm sure is fun. Thuso Mbedu: Yeah, yeah. [laughs] Rebecca Ford: Have you learned ... Um, I find that people often learn something about their costars when they're doing the sort of promotional part of this. Have you learned anything funny or interesting about Lashana or Viola or any of the other cast? Thuso Mbedu: I think, um, I learned as much as I could of them during the movie. Rebecca Ford: Mm-hmm. Thuso Mbedu: Um, because of how much we went through collectively from the training, which we call trauma bonding, to the diet, how hard it is. So, knowing that, you know, Viola and Lashana would fight over fishcakes- [laughs] Rebecca Ford: [laughs] Thuso Mbedu: ... as a treat. You know, um, them now knowing that I would hide the South African Doritos in my pockets- Rebecca Ford: [laughs] Thuso Mbedu: ... because that was my cheat meal. But also, understanding that essentially we are a group of introverts who connected so well because we truly understand how we function emotionally, physically and psychologically. And, you know, when someone was quieter than the next on a particular day, you don't take it personally, because you know who they are essentially. And then, even after wrapping, we wrapped around March, which wa- which is, like, you know, uh, still award season, coming back here with Sheila and Lashana, Sheila and I, you know, again, we're just stepping into Hollywood. We know no one, which means when I go to events like these, I don't have a plus one. But being there with them, partying up a storm- Rebecca Ford: [laughs] Thuso Mbedu: ... to the point where people, like, if you would ask a person who saw us on the dance floor, "Are these really introverts?" Rebecca Ford: [laughs] Thuso Mbedu: They would say, "No," you know? Because we just take so much joy in being around each other. And that's what this press tour has been as well. Where we're walking into spaces where now, again, people have seen us in interviews and, you know, we're animated, but it's like, as long as I'm walking into a space alone, I'm going ... Okay, oh, you can't see my face, but, like, big eyed, nervous, don't know what's happening. The minute you see Sheila or Lashana across the room, you see this big sigh of relief, going, "Woo. Now I can breathe, now I can be normal." And then rushing to each other, gathering and the cha-cha-cha-cha-cha chatting away. And just having, you know, the time of our lives. Gina as well is an introvert. I remember one of the dinners that we had, um, asa cast, she sat, um, across from me, and she sent me a text and she's like, "This is an introvert's nightmare," you know? [laughs] Rebecca Ford: [laughs] Thuso Mbedu: So, [laughs] it really is a group of introverts who are generally just in love with being with each other because of everything that we've gone through. Rebecca Ford: And so, you're sort of embarking on- on the next step of your Hollywood career after the success of this and Underground Railroad, and I'm curious how this project maybe influenced you on what you would wanna do next or do as you pursue this career. Thuso Mbedu: I think what it reassured in me is that I can take on any challenge. I always look to challenge myself with the roles that I take. This one would be the biggest challenge to date because of the physical aspect of it, having to do our own stance. But I also have a theatrical background. I did drama, you know, in university, where you play almost anything and everything, uh, without, you know, putting yourself in a box. And so, that's my attitude going to- into the next phase of my career. Um, right now I'm- I am going to be working with Vanessa Block on a project. It's a sci-fi project set in the 1950's. I never imagined that I could find myself in the sci-fi world. But it's an amazing script that is character driven and very grounded, and it's a completely different world to anything that I could've imagined. And I'm excited for it. And that's just the attitude that I want to take on. It's- it's not about, okay, saying, this- th- I'll only do this, I'll only do that. It's, is it an amazing script? Is it an amazing character who will grow and change and, you know, and inspire some sort of change in those who watch it? And yeah, that's- that's what I want, that's what I look for. Rebecca Ford: Well, uh, this is such a wonderful, uh, showcase of your abilities, and I- I can't wait to see what you do next. And for everyone listening, please check out The Woman King, it's in theaters now. Thuso Mbedu: Thank you. Rebecca Ford: Thanks so much. Katey Rich: So, now David, we're gonna hear the conversation that you had with Billy Eichner, who is the star and creative engine behind Bros. It is, you know, his movie in many ways. Um, you've been covering Bros for a long time. You saw it very early, and you already talked to his costar, Luke Macfarlane. Um, but you were really eager to just dive further back into Bros, why? David Canfield: Why was I eager to dive back into Bros? Well, it's- it's the kind of movie we have never had before. I grew up on Apatow comedies, and this is a very thoroughly gay Apatow comedy, and it's the kinda movie I didn't know how much I needed until I saw it. And that is complete credit to Billy Eichner, because you know, if, for those who have been a fan of his, you know, Billy on the Street, Parks and Recreation, et cetera, it is so completely his shtick, his humor, and his voice comes through so completely that, um, seeing that meld with the kinda raunchy Apatowian formula was really thrilling for me. Uh, and I think makes for a rousing crowd pleaser of a rom com. Katey Rich: I was watching the Billy on the Street video he did to promote this video, where he, uh, had a group of lesbians, uh, running down the street with him, chasing people, which is- David Canfield: [laughs] Katey Rich: ... a bit that had existed on Billy on the Street before, but fit so perfectly in the world of Bros. David Canfield: Correct. [laughs] Katey Rich: It was like, "Ah, uh, all of these pieces have come together." [laughs] David Canfield: Yes. He, um, he brings a lot of, like, what you know of him and what you've loved about him to the movie. Uh, and one thing we talked about, um, in your conversation that's, you know, s- was more surprising for me about the movie is he brings a lot of vulnerability of his- his own path, his own coming of age as a gay artist, uh, into the film and into his character, which is loosely based on him, let's say, um, not completely at all. Um, and I think it makes for a- a richer kinda performance from him than people would expect, and also a much more layered script than you would've thought probably at first glance. Katey Rich: Well, let's hear more about that conversation with Billy Eichner. David Canfield: Billy Eichner, you are here to talk about your movie, Bros, which I have, uh, seen twice and am slightly obsessed with. So, thank you for being here. Billy Eichner: Oh, wow. Thank you. Thanks for having me. David Canfield: Yeah, and I- I wanted to start by asking you a little bit about the lead up to this movie, which is out on Friday. Uh, I feel like you have been quite literally everywhere, all over the planet, [laughs] in support of this movie. I mean, what- Billy Eichner: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. David Canfield: What has it been like, uh, just, I think getting the word out, and also, um, you know, hoping people will go see this special movie? Billy Eichner: Yeah, it's been a whirlwind, uh, a true rollercoaster of emotions. It's been thrilling, though. I mean, I've never been a part of anything like this. Um, it's a very rare movie, just the existence of it is very rare. And I'm also really proud of it. You know, I- I want people to see it and, you know, I told Universal a while back when we were first testing the movie and seeing how positive even the earliest reactions to the movie were. Um, and also very, you know, a lot of laughing, people were always laughing out loud, from start to finish, even at our earliest test screenings. David Canfield: Hm. Billy Eichner: But also, surprisingly moved by it. David Canfield: Yeah. Billy Eichner: In a way that I of course Nick Stoller and Judd Apatow and I've always wanted people to be moved, but I was taken with how powerful the experience was that people were having. Um, and I love the movie. And so, I told Universal a while back I would do anything and everything I could to get the word out and try to get people to the movie theater. Um, which can be a difficult thing these days, uh, if you're not a franchise film or a superhero movie or a horror movie. David Canfield: Uh-huh [affirmative]. Billy Eichner: Um, but I love comedies and I miss going to see comedies in movie theaters. And I love romantic comedies, I miss going to see those in movie theaters. And we've never had one quite like this. Um, and so, for me, as a gay man and a LGBTQ person, in addition to the person who made the movie- David Canfield: Hm. Billy Eichner: ... you know, for so many reasons I- I just really want people to go. David Canfield: Yeah. It- it was really special to see the reaction out of Toronto specifically, 'cause that's a, one of the biggest movie festivals in the world, and you got to have this huge crowd, uh, really laughing along with the movie. Um, but I- I am really curious about that- that other element you were talking about, the- the part that is moving people, because I completely agree with it. Uh, when you say you and Nick and- and Judd were, you know, hoping for that kinda reaction, I- I'm curious what parts of the movie you- you identify as, you know, having that effect on people and that you wanted to really, um, hit people in that particular way? Billy Eichner: I mean, I'm always surprised by which moments affect people. Uh, it's- it's not always the ones that you see coming. [laughs] You know? And I don't wanna give too much away but it is mainly a comedy. I mean, our goal was to really entertain people and give people a reason to go to the movie theater, and have that reason be that the movie is just hysterically laugh out loud funny. You know, um, but I- I do think there are more, for lack of a better word, and I don't wanna overstate it, but more profound elements of the movie, certainly more personal elements of the movie, that might catch people by surprise. David Canfield: Yeah. Billy Eichner: Um, and, you know, as me and my love interest, uh, whose name is Aaron, played beautifully by Luke Macfarlane, as our characters are starting to- to bond, and our relationship is becoming more intimate and vulnerable and romantic, we see our, you know, all those walls come down between us. And, um, I think that, I- I think that's very sweet and feels very real and honest to people. And our characters start revealing more about our lives. Um, and it's not always within a- a joke form. David Canfield: Hm. Billy Eichner: Sometimes it gets just earnest and honest. And I think that's important too, as important as the jokes, because we haven't gotten a movie like this. You know, not one produced and being released and distributed at this scale. David Canfield: Yeah. Billy Eichner: Um, that is a- a- an authentic gay rom com, uh, written by a gay man and starring LGBTQ people. And I th- I think that the movie needed to find a way to acknowledge both what's v- celebratory and joyous about this moment, and the existence of this movie, but also speak to why it took so long. David Canfield: Hm. Billy Eichner: Um, and the frustrations and challenges that gay people, LGBTQ people have- have faced, you know. Um, I didn't wanna do it in a heavy handed way, because it is a comedy 95% of the time. Um, but I, it was important to me that we show these characters as multi dimensional gay men. David Canfield: Hm. Billy Eichner: Um, which I- I don't think we get often. I think in mainstream, pop culture at least, we've certainly had indie films and- and other types of queer content that have sometime flown below th- under the radar, because the power is that we, in Hollywood, decided, oh, that's niche, that's a gay thing for gay people, and straight people aren't gonna wanna see that, you know. With of course o- one exception a decade. David Canfield: [laughs] Billy Eichner: You know, whether it's Will & Grace or Schitt's Creek or- or something like that. But for the most part, the projects made for us by us have often been swept under the rug a little bit. Um, and I knew that this one would be given a wider release, more support in terms of marketing and distribution. So, I wan- ... it was so important to me, I think, for so long, a lotta the gay characters we've seen, um, especially the gay men, I'm a gay man, so I obviously- David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Billy Eichner: ... am, you know, I'm often drawn to movies, TV shows that feature gay characters, and- and when I see them, they're often painted in such broad strokes. David Canfield: Yes. Billy Eichner: You know, where j- they're such sitcom, they're sitcom characters. And I don't mean that in a, in a great way. And again, there are exceptions to this, but you know, we're often one dimensional or two dimensional or we're there, or- or we're only there to tell a joke and then get outta the way. Um, and I really wanted both my character and Luke's character, who are the the center of the movie, to be written as multi dimensional, complicated, messy, funny, sad, hypocritical people. Confident and insecure. You know, sexy and ugly at different times. And I just don't think we get a lot of that. David Canfield: Yeah. Uh, you're a co-writer on the movie, and you mentioned not, you know, having as much experience [laughs] with studio movies, especially as- as Judd or Nick, so I'm curious for you what that learning curve was like of ... because a lot of your humor, as someone who knows your humor pretty well, is in there, but it's still hitting those studio rom com-y beats that we all know and love. Um, what was that evolution like for you in terms of the crafting of the script with Nick? Billy Eichner: I mean, we never sat down and said, "Oh, well, this is what would happen in a studio rom com now, so let's put that in. David Canfield: Right. Billy Eichner: Never. You know, I think all that stuff is in my blood, in my bones. David Canfield: Hm. Billy Eichner: Like, both, you know, from- from the very specific pop culture references and, you know, the details about gay dating and gay life, which those come very natural to me. [laughs] David Canfield: [laughs] Billy Eichner: I am a 44 year old gay man who's been out of the closet both professionally and personally since I was, you know, 19 or 20 years old. So, that's over two decades. David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Billy Eichner: So, all that information has been stored up. Um, and the one thing I did tell Nick from the very beginning is, it has to be really funny, and it has to be very relatable to everyone, but it still has to be authentic to the gay audience and the gay characters that it's about. David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Billy Eichner: I just had no interest in doing something that, you know, sanded off the edges, you know? Or something that was working overtime to be super palatable to straight people. You know, this isn't a sit com. It's very funny, I hope, I think. But it's not a sit com, that's pretty clear. David Canfield: Yes. Billy Eichner: When you watch it. Again, this is a Judd Apatow movie, and- and that was important to me. But at the same time, what's just as much in my blood and part of my creative being and part of what inspired me, um, to not only make this movie but to be in entertainment, were the romantic comedies I watched as a kid and as a teenager. I loved those movies, you know? Moonstruck and the Nora Ephron movies, and Working Girl, and Annie Hall, and When Harry Met Sally, and the list goes on and on, I love those movies. Broadcast News is my favorite movie of all time. David Canfield: Huh. Billy Eichner: And so, you know, and I think there are elements of those movies which we now consider, you know, classic rom com beats or tropes or whatever you wanna say, um, but I love those. They're comforting. And what, and the balance I thought I wanted to striker here, um, and Nick agreed, and Judd agreed, and what I thought would actually be cool and subversive in its own way, which I actually am, I'm happy, because, uh, you know, there have been some- some critics, uh, who've picked up on this, is that we are presenting what might be considered to a more heteronormative audience, subversive elements of gay life, you know. The lack of monogamy sometimes even between a gay male couple that is in love, or at least the conversation about it, you know. David Canfield: Yeah. Billy Eichner: Um, the more, you know, somewhat liberated sex lives that we lead. You know, other- other elements, eve- ... o- or even down to specific pop culture references which one might connect to a- a gay sensibility, you know, that might not find in a Julia Roberts, uh, George Clooney movie, you know, I wanted to present all of those with that same warm glow that you got in Sleepless in Seattle or You've Got Mail. Because there's no reason those two things can't and shouldn't coexist, right? There's no reason that our lives in a way shouldn't be considered traditional. Who's to say what's traditional and what's conventional, you know? David Canfield: Hm. Billy Eichner: Um, and we're living at a time when the definitions of what's, quote-unquote, normal, you know, or heteronormative are- are changing, right? They're even changing for straight people. Like, talk to any young couple, any young gen-Z straight couple- David Canfield: [laughs] Billy Eichner: ... they are not often playing by the same rules that their parents played by, right? And so, um, I wanted to present an authentic version of gay life that still felt warm, you know? That- that treated a- a four way sex scene with the same warmth [laughs] that, you know, a traditional, uh, sex scene or- or comedic sex scene might- might have. Um, I wanted the movie to be hopeful. I liked that it's this sort of combination of, you know, orgies and When Harry Met Sally witty banter, walking the Upper West Side. You know, there's no reason those two things can't coexist, right? And I wanted it to be both really funny and authentic, um, but also romantic. David Canfield: Hm. Billy Eichner: Right? And I miss that. I watch the movie and sometimes I get swept away in it, and, uh, and I- I look at my character and Luke's character, you know, as we make our way towards the ending of the movie, and I think, "God, those guys look so happy," right? Like, for all of their challenges and all their issues, which they still have in the movie, nothing really gets fully resolved. Um, but they're so happy. They've made the choice to be happy and walk through a Nora Ephron version of Manhattan while still carrying the details and nuances and what some call the, [laughs] you know, idiosyncrasies of gay life with them. David Canfield: Hm. Billy Eichner: Um, and I- I- I was trying to strike that balance. David Canfield: I think, I think you do. Um, you do realize watching the sex scenes particularly how naturally and authentic gay sex scene fits in that kind of epithelium template. [laughs] Billy Eichner: Oh, good, thanks. David Canfield: Yeah, yeah, absolutely do. Um, there's a section of the movie that is set in Provincetown, and your character has one, I found, extremely moving monologue. I'm curious for you, and I know you don't wanna spoil too much, but just broadly the process for you of both writing that, 'cause it did feel personal, uh, a- and acting it, because it is a very dramatic scene, I think, to play. Billy Eichner: Um, yeah, that's actually one of the first scenes we shot for the movie. And it was scary to be that vulnerable. Um, that's obviously a very personal piece of writing. David Canfield: Yes. Billy Eichner: And it's not identical to my real life existence, but it's- it's obviously drawn from my real life in many ways. Um, it comes down to wanting to show a multidimensional portrait of who I am and- and- and who gay people are, and who LGBTQ people are. You know, we've often been that sit com character that makes you laugh, but doesn't necessarily feel real. Um, and I wanted to create a more expansive feeling character, you know. Um, and that required me to speak a- a bit more earnestly and with more vulnerability about who I really am underneath all the jokes and the confidence and the boldness and the brashness, right? Um, and- and I also, with that particular moment in the movie, felt the need not only to speak to my own personal story, but I felt like the movie needed to acknowledge that, yes, again, this is a celebratory moment, but let's think about all the people that came before us, LGBTQ folks, especially in Hollywood, who were so often punished for coming out, or never came out, and so had to deal with that crazy, odd double life or, you know, and whatever trauma comes along with that. David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Billy Eichner: Um, and I wanted to acknowledge that. Why did it take so long? You know? David Canfield: Hm. Billy Eichner: And from a story perspective, I thought it made sense because my character and Luke's character, you know, when we meet, we're two guys who are basically competing to see who can be more emotionally unavailable. David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Billy Eichner: What ends up happening is that Bobby reveals so much about himself. And I think when you do that with someone you're falling in love with, it's to say, "Here's all my shit," you know. You've seen sort of the superficial version of me, which is super confident and funny, and I, you know, a- always have a one-liner and all of that, but underneath is obviously more complicated. And I want you to see all of this, and I hope that you still wanna be with me. David Canfield: Hm. Billy Eichner: I hope that I'm still sexy to you. You know, I hope that this actually brings us closer and doesn't scare you off. Um, and so, that scene has a couple of different functions. But, um, it was, uh, I was really grateful that they let me, they let me play that scene out, um, a- and not worry about, you know, oh, god, where are the jokes? You know? David Canfield: Hm, yeah. Well, they are everywhere else, so it's okay. [laughs] Billy Eichner: Yes, there are a lotta jokes. A lot of jokes. David Canfield: There's a lot of jokes. Yes, yes. Fear not, listeners. The other element of the movie that I find really interesting is a kind of thorough intra Hollywood critique at times, of the way that LGBTQ+ people have been treated. There's some commentary on certain queer baiting awards movies that don't actually [laughs] feature gay actors. Uh, and there's the- the Hallmark universe, um, and the heteronormative qualities of that. And I'm curious for you, like, how important it was to include that stuff, given what you just said about your own experiences in this industry, many queer actors and artists' experiences in this industry, to acknowledge to an extent that there is stuff, you know, stuff does need to change and has not changed. Billy Eichner: Yeah, I mean, look, things have obviously gotten way better, you know? David Canfield: Yeah. [laughs] Billy Eichner: And Bro- Bros is one of many examples of that. Um, but, you know, look, my character's very outspoken. You know, and he d- he does like to, you know, really get to the heart of what's going on, you know, in a funny way, and also deliver a fun pop culture zinger. So, part of that is just how he expresses himself. And, you know, like me in real life, you know, he has, like, passionate thoughts about culture and pop culture. David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Billy Eichner: And- and some of the hypocrisies within it, and some of the bullshit, um, and, uh, and all of that. Um, but, you know, again, I think that y- you know, Bros is not a political movie. David Canfield: Sure. Billy Eichner: Um, but- but again, we haven't gotten the chance to make many movies like this. And, you know, it turns out that I had a lot to say, you know? And- and it is rare that a gay person is getting, you know, so much creative control over a mov- a mainstream, high profile movie about gay people, which historically, 90% of the time, those stories have been told by straight people, for us, you know? And some of those movies are fantastic, and some of those performances are fantastic. But, you know, as Tom Hanks recently said, if Philadelphia was made today, he probably wouldn't get cast in that role and that would make sense for where we are now in the, in the middle of, uh, this, like, cultural evolution in Hollywood. It made sense for 1992, but it might not make sense now. And- and I'm not even saying, you know, gay should only play and straight should play straight. Uh- uh, I don't, I don't think that, because it's art, and it's acting, and the whole fun of it is that we all get to play each other. But historically, you know, art, yes, it's art, but it's not made in a vacuum. David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Billy Eichner: You know? This is a big business, especially major studio movies, right? So, it's about equity, it's about equal opportunity, you know, and- and historically, 90% of the high profile LGBTQ roles in movies that did get more exposure and big awards campaigns and, you know, this, that and the other thing, those roles were played by straight actors, straight movie stars, right? Um, so, yes, it's about art, but when do we get to tell our own stories. When do we get the opportunity to shine in stories about ourselves? Um, because for so often, we didn't get to play the big gay roles, and we certainly weren't asked if we were out to play leading straight characters in major studio movies. I mean, that really still doesn't even happen. So, where does that leave you? You know, so, I thought with this movie, and- and Judd and Nick and Universal, everyone w- was very behind this, like, you know, this was an opportunity to say, "Hey, there are so many openly LGBTQ comedians and hilarious, delightful, comic actors around." And- and people deserve to discover them too. They deserve the opportunity. And guess what? It's great for the audience too. Because, as with any Judd Apatow movie, you know, he has a history of introducing new comedic talent- David Canfield: Yes. Billy Eichner: ... to the world, and giving them a bi- big platform, whether it was Seth Rogen in Knocked Up, or Melissa McCarthy in Bridesmaids, Kumail Nanjiani in The Big Sick, you know, people who've often been on the sidelines or- or who have had no exposure at all, all of a sudden are front and center in a big way, and we've never had that for openly LGBTQ comedians and funny people and funny actors. So, it just made sense for this movie for so many reasons. David Canfield: Yeah, absolutely. Well, we, as we've discussed, this is a very significant movie. Uh, I would argue that the fact that it is great is the big hurdle and that it is a success. But, um- Billy Eichner: Thank you. David Canfield: I am curious how you are feeling about Friday. Um, do you feel nervous? Do you feel like you have cleared that kind of hurdle after such an incredible launch in Toronto? Um, 'cause it is a, it is a vulnerable thing, I think, to also then put this movie out into the world. Billy Eichner: Yeah, look, this is a, this is a really bold, really funny movie. I'm so proud of it. I truly do think it's the best thing I've ever done, because I think it's as funny as- as my funniest work, but also so much more. David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Billy Eichner: Um, and I'll always be proud of it. I don't know about box office this or box office that. I have gone out there, as I always do when I really care about something I've done, and I have worked my ass off, right? I have been everywhere. I told Universal to run me into the ground to promote this movie- David Canfield: [laughs] Billy Eichner: ... 'cause I love it so much, and they have. And I'm still out here doing it, and I'll continue to do it. Um, I really hope that not only LGBTQ folks who I think are excited about the movie, um, but I really hope straight people get out there to see this movie, the way they would see any other big, hilarious comedy in a movie theater, that Judd Apatow made, or- or- or anyone else. You know, um, because it's really no different. And for- for years, since- since I was a child, I went to the movies and watched comedies and romantic comedies that were about straight couples and straight people, and I loved them. Right? I laughed, I related to it, I was moved, it was aspirational, it was hopeful, made me feel warm, made me feel good walking out of the movie theater. And there's no reason it shouldn't work in the reverse of straight folks who love a great comedy, love a great love story, to see, uh, one about a gay couple and still feel all those same feelings, right? That's the world that we need to move to, right? Like, that's where we need to be, you know? We should all be relating to each other's stories, and it's also exciting to see where our love stories differ, you know? Like, it's fun to see, like, oh, that's so relatable, you know. David Canfield: Yeah. Billy Eichner: That's exactly what happened to me, even though I'm straight and they're gay. And then there are scenes where you're like, "Oh, wow, that's- " David Canfield: [laughs] Billy Eichner: " ... probably not something that would happen." But- but that's interesting and that's fascinating and fun and exciting and new, right? Um, and so, I hope, I hope straight folks come out and- and- and support this movie, because we really need them to. And they'll have a great time. It's not just about obligation. Like, people will fucking love this movie. Um, I've seen it play out now in screenings for months. So, I hope people take us up on this very special opportunity and, um, beyond that, that's all I can do, you know. And just, um, hope that people discover it. David Canfield: Yeah. A lovely note to end on. Billy Eichner, thank you so much for joining us. Billy Eichner: Thank you for having me, I appreciate it. Katey Rich: That does it for today's interview episode. We'll be back on Thursday with our usual round table conversation. In the meantime, find us at VanityFair.com, follow us on Twitter @HWD, and on our own. I'm @KateyRich, and David? David Canfield: @DavidCanfield97. Katey Rich: And Rebecca. Rebecca Ford: @BeccaMFord. Katey Rich: And please keep texting us your Burning awards, using questions at joinsubtext.com/littlegoldmen, or 213-513-7035. Our editor and producer, as always, is Brett Fuchs.