Josh Wigler: Hello, and welcome back to _Still Watching_ the television podcast from _Vanity Fair_. We cover entire seasons of the hottest shows on television. And right now we are diving deep into the hottest of them all _House of the Dragon, _the_ Game of Thrones_ prequel series on HBO. I'm Josh Wigler, and to discuss _House of the Dragon_ episode five with me, back from his trip across the Narrow Sea, it's Richard Lawson. Richard, welcome home. 

Richard Lawson: Hello, thank you. Yeah, I was in the very, very NA- narrow seas of Venice, which I guess you, we just call canals.

Josh Wigler: Yes. Uh, gosh, I have so many questions for you about Venice. I wanna know if you can confirm, did he spit on him or not? Did he, did he do it?

Richard Lawson: I, I handle all of Chris Pine's wardrobe, so I inspected it heavily afterward and I didn't see anything, but who knows.

Josh Wigler: Okay. All right. Fair enough, fair enough. Richard, welcome back to the podcast. You have been missed, and you have missed a few big weeks of _House of the Dragon_ here on the pod and of course, here we are in episode five, the midpoint of season one of _House of the Dragon,_ "We Light the Way" another doozy. Um, so how are you feeling at this point in _House of the Dragon_? Any catch up thoughts that you wanna, you wanna toss out there before we're talking about episode five? 

Richard Lawson: I mean, I do appreciate just like I, I went back and re-watched four in, and, you know, and five in anticipation of recording with you, and like, you know, I had said something in my review where like, you know, characters say something and then two scenes later, um, the, the consequences of that are, are seen and I, I kind of miss the slower story building of the original_ Game of Thrones _series. But actually rewatching five I was like, you know what? They actually have been building toward a lot of this gradually from episode one. So I, this episode felt like a big payoff. I'm glad that I'm here for, to record for this one because, um, a lot happens. And, um, I feel like it's gonna change the DNA of the show pretty significantly going forward in the back half. 

Josh Wigler: Yeah. I think that that's a really fair assessment of where we're going and I, and I think certainly a fair assessment of, of where we've been and where this one, um, you know, sort of takes us and, and what it's punctuating. So much of the show up to this point has been about Princess Rhaenyra and her duty, and her claim to the throne as it was solidified at the end of, uh, of episode one. But is it solidified and are there people out there who are going to be contesting that claim? Will she be able to repair her relationship with Alicent for instance? This episode, by the end of it really gives you a pretty big indication of just how far that friendship has fallen and the really, really gruesome consequences for a bunch of the players on the board as well. Not to mention Richard, Viserys, he's on the ground that doesn't look particularly great for the guy.

Richard Lawson: But he'd been doing so well. His health seemed great, you know, he was, yeah. You know, rosy cheeked and active and no, I mean, God bless Pat, the actor, Paddy Considine, who has, I think subtly, uh, you know, led us into Viserys's decline. And then in this episode he just falls off a cliff, which like, is sometimes how these things go. And, um, yeah, I, I, I fear that we might be, uh, at the end of, of him.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, it's a, it's a really grim look for, for King Paddy Considine from the, from the show, but some version of really horrible things befalling this character feels inevitable, feels telegraphed to the point that very early in this episode, in one of his few scenes, I think his only seen of the episode outgoing hand of the king, uh, Otto Hightower, even he says that, that man is not destined to be old. Uh, that is not a place that he's gonna go. So yeah, uh, it does not look good for King Viserys by the end of this one.

Richard Lawson: Which, you know, really that there there's a tension mounting in this season that referenced often by Hightower or Rhaenys in this episode that like once this succession actually starts to, to move into gear, you know, that's when things are gonna get really bad. And, um, now that worried about things seems basically on the verge of happening. 

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Uh, I think there's a really telling, uh, line in this episode during the, during the welcome feast, uh, really which ends up seemingly being the wedding reception. The big plans seem to have been kind of condensed to that one night given how everything goes, but there's that dance between Rhaenyra, and Laenor, uh, where she says I'm not much of a dancer, uh, and Laenor says, it's not that different from combat. She says I hope this has a different outcome. Uh, it is, it is not, uh, coincidental I think Richard that the, that the period of Westeros that we're adapting for this show, it is called the dance of the dragons, so get your dance shoes on, I think we might be there. 

Richard Lawson: You know, uh, for people who have been, you know, had a wedding before know that you always have to have a Rhaenyra plan, just, you know, in case the weather turns bad if it's an outdoor wedding. And in this case, it seems like they had a, in case the husband's boyfriend kills or no is killed by the wife's boyfriend? 

Josh Wigler: Secret boyfriend. Yeah. 

Richard Lawson: We're just gonna do it. We're gonna do it in a small room, uh, that night. 

Josh Wigler: You know, I think these kind of contingencies, you need to have in place in the seven kingdoms. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. It's just practical.

Josh Wigler: It really is. Uh, so of course, we're gonna talk about all of that. Uh, we of course, want to hear from all of you out there. You wanna write in, you wanna send in some feedback, we've got a line for that, stillwatchingpod@gmail.com. That's stillwatchingpod@gmail.com. In many ways this episode feels like a really significant point in the story, perhaps even the end of an era. We want to know what you're thinking about the show halfway through season one. Please send in that feedback, what you're thinking of these first five episodes of _House of the Dragon_, how it's stacking against _Game of Thrones_ so far. Is it meeting exceeding, not quite meeting your expectations, all of that good stuff, stillwatchingpod@gmail.com. Richard and I are gonna recap the entire episode scene by scene in just a beat, but first we're gonna take a quick break. We will be right. 

All right, Richard, uh, it's episode five, "We Light the Way" is the name of this one and we begin the way through this episode in the Vale, a very recognizable location from _Game of Thrones,_ first time we are seeing it here on _House of the Dragon_, and we are here for just a quick little murder. Just a real brief, uh, you know, just, it's been a minute, we need a murder. We wanna start with a murder. Here's a murder. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. And it's, it's sad because you know, this episode introdu- introduces us to two interesting characters who are then summarily killed off, um, which is a shame. Um, and I really like this introduction, um, to, uh, Daemon's wife, but, um, yeah, she wasn't, it was a short lived, uh, cameo of sorts. 

Josh Wigler: Yes. Uh, Rachel Redford is the actor who plays, uh, Lady Rhea of House Royce. Uh, she is the Lady of Rhunestone, and this is Daemon's wife, who we have not heard such glowing things about, uh, from Daemon's really terrible perspective and what he has said about the women of the Vale largely over the course of the show has been awful. Uh, and I think in meeting this woman, I think that this is one of the things that _Game of Thrones_ used to do so well. You know, I'm rewatching season one of _Game of Thrones_ right now for my sins, Richard, because I can't get away from Westeros, I suppose. And there's so many characters in that first season who are, who are done in one. They're either in an episode and that's it, or they're in just a couple of episodes and then they're gone very quickly. Your Syrio Forels, your Yorens of the Knight's Watch. And I feel like they give us a character here in this opening scene who you would wanna watch the, the Rhea Royce show? Uh, she's, she's very, very loaded with character. She's got the bow, she's riding so confidently, and it just so happens that she's married to this terrible, terrible dragon prince who just wants her money and to be free and clear to marry whoever he wants, and so murderers. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah, I think her, her introduction and, you know, a brief spell on the show, um, you know, Daemon has described her a certain way and then you meet her and she's a seemingly independent, interesting person who, you know, her country or her, her, the local people seem to like her, you know, at least this one cousin. Um, and you're like, of course that's how he would see her. That someone who is, who, who doesn't just like, you know, stand meekly and, you know, daintily in a corner is becomes, you know, uglier than the sheep and all this stuff. And, um, I think it's just a further kind of, uh, explication of like Daemon's psychology and I think particularly his view toward women. 

Josh Wigler: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it's, uh, it's, it's really telling you a lot about Daemon. You know, it's, it's again, this is, this is a character who is remarkably compelling and also repugnant, and that is another thing that _Game of Thrones_ does well. And can it hold your interest when somebody is just this despicable when he's just scaring this horse to murder his wife and it doesn't go all the way and she has that final line, I knew you couldn't finish. And there comes the rock and there comes the killing blow. Um, this plea is a little different in the book, Richard. Uh, she certainly, she certainly dies and Daemon certainly sets his sights on, well, now I wanna go and scoop up all of her riches now that she's gone. Um, but the, I think the timeline of did he kill her, it's certainly not suggested that he did in the book to my recollection. I just went back and checked out the passage. Um, but I don't think it's a far leap out of character to put this in the show. Uh, I do not think that it is anywhere outside the vicinity of what Daemon Targaryen is all about, for him to be the one who actively kills Rhea. In the book, it's a hunting accident. On the show, it's much more than that. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. And I think that, you know, for, for the purposes of television, like the look on her face when she realizes what he's gonna do, like, oh, that's the path you see to, to get, you know, into the, onto the throne. Um, it's like chilling and I, you know, I don't know- I guess you could describe that in a book, but I think maybe inventing that for TV makes sense.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, it's a good adaptation choice, I agree. Um, so we're gonna go across the Narrow Sea to Driftmark. There's a very quick scene here where, where we start to see that Viserys is not doing well. He is getting seasick. It could just be seasickness, but we are going to come to see that it is, uh, it is a lot more than that that's going on for the king. Um, we'll have a lot of time to, to dig deeper into this one, but I kind of wanna talk about what's going on with Alicent first. Um, we get this scene where Otto Hightower, he's leaving. He's been fired as hand of the king. It's his final day, he's, uh, about to commute back home to Old Town, uh, and he has some parting advice for Alicent who he says, okay, so you chose Rhaenyra, uh, that's great. That was actually a very bad decision. Uh, and it's so bad because if Rhaenyra ends up on the Iron Throne, war is going to follow. The people of the realm, they're not going to accept her, and in order to secure her claim, she's going to kill you and your children, she'll have no choice. You know, it you're no fool, yet you choose not to see it. The time is coming. You have to prepare Aegon to rule, or you want to clinging to Rhaenyra and start praying for her mercy. And this is a very, very, very scary thing for Alicent to hear. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. I mean, it's it, it's it, it's, it's sad. It's, you know, because Alicent, you know, in this is, is learning that she's been lied to. That her friendship with, um, as old as it might be is on very, you know, tenuous ground. And, um, I think anytime you see in, in stories like this, where, or even a mob story or whatever, where people all of a sudden wake up and realize, oh, I've gotten really far into this, and I, there's not like a safe way out, you know? And, um, I think she thought, well, you know, we're just kind of ladies of the court and we hang out and we wear dresses and we do this and sure we want more, but like we're safe. And her realizing quite profoundly that like, not only am I not safe, but I've been pushed into a really precarious position by pretty much everyone I know. 

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Uh, which is gonna be echoed in what's going on at Driftmark with, uh, with Rhaenys who's going to be telling her husband in a couple minutes, we're going into the, into the lions den here, or the dragons den as it were. We do not need to be doing this and we are actively endangering ourselves. So at least she is, uh, vocalizing that idea that you're talking about, for sure. Um, very quickly still with, with Alicent, just to stay with her for a bit. She's alone, right. You know, everybody else is on this expedition to, to Driftmark and she's staying behind and she's still been left with the uncertainty of what happened with, with Rhaenyra, what happened with Daemon, what happened with that entire situation. And here comes Larys Strong, clubfoot. A character you and I have not, uh, yet talked about, but this is the same guy who's eating biscuits at the camp in episode three. He's finally really speaking up here. Uh, and it seems like he has a little bit of pot stirring that he wants to do here. He talks about an outsider among the natives as he's looking at this flower that's indigenous to Braavos yet thriving here for mysterious reasons. Uh, maybe alluding to Alicent, maybe alluding to his own place in this political cycle, but he's trying to, uh, pass along some information to Alicent as subtly as a hammer, uh, as he talks about the tea that was brought to Rhaenyra's chambers and this really, really rattles Alicent in a big way.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. And, you know, poor, sweet, naive Alicent, I don't necessarily realize is that she's being manipulated by yet another person. You know, like, like she kind of thinks that he maybe doesn't know what he's talking about and she's, but she's putting the pieces together, but of course, Larys knows exactly what he's doing. Um, and I guess, you know, I, I know you're familiar with the book. I've not read it. My hunch is that Larys is going to become, you know, is gonna be stick around, you know, like, um, because clearly he's got some agenda going on, um, sort of this Richard the third esque figure. Um, so I'm curious about, you know, whether he's just a little piece of the puzzle kind of moving the plot forward, or, uh, if we're gonna see the kind of fullness of his ambition later on. 

Josh Wigler: What I'll say is I've been really eager to see Larys Clubfoot. Uh, I've been really eager to see this character. He's a really compelling figure in the way he's written by Martin in _Fire and Blood_, the book, this show's based on, um, someone who I've been really fascinated to see how is he going to be depicted on the show? How is he gonna be used on the show? In this episode is really the, the biggest taste of it we've gotten so far. And because there are so many characters and because we're just starting out, we're five weeks into this adventure right now. For those who haven't done the research, or if the show hasn't made it clear enough, just to connect the family tree, Larys is the son of Lyonel Strong who had been Master of Laws, now the new hand of the king. Probably a strong, uh, choice, uh, literally to be hand of the king, given the advice that he has given Viserys in the past and the other member of that family that we know is Harwin Strong, Break Bones. We've seen glimpses of as well. We saw him, um, he's the one who's smiling goofily at Rhaenyra era when he brings the boar back to camp back in episode three. He's the knight that runs into Rhaenyra era in the streets of King's Landing in last week's episode. He's the knight who Lyonel gives the nod to, to go and help break up the fight at the, at the wedding feast at the end of this episode as well. So the three of those characters are all connected, and I think that they're compellingly so because I feel like they represent very different types of people. The two brothers, especially. One is considered- his name is Break Bones, because he's considered the strongest man in Westeros. The other one is talking about being an outsider, right? You know, he's basically discussing himself. Uh, I don't know that I necessarily belong here, but let's see if I can't find a way to thrive.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. I mean, I, I, I think that it, it, it's, it's fun to see more and more pieces of arrayed on this board, you know, because I think in the early episodes of this season,, I was worried, okay. We're so Targaryen heavy with a few, you know, interventions from a Hightower here or a Velaryon there, but like now to have this other family kind of, because everyone is crouching in anticipation about what's about to happen, you know? They can see that the king is ill with not, it's not gray scale. It's not any of the other, you know, Westeros diseases that I'm familiar with, but like it's something. And so everyone is just making sure that they are best positioned. Um, and I think that's tense and exciting to watch. 

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Um, one of the conditions that Viserys suffers from in the book, Richard is, is the king's disease is gout. Uh, and as someone who also occasionally suffers from gout myself, God, I hope that's not what's waiting for me. Oh no. It looks pretty, pretty grim what's going on with Viserys as he is, he is really sick on, on this voyage to Driftmark. And he is coming here to smooth things over with the Sea Snake to, you know, arrange this marriage between Rhaenyra, and Laenor to maybe undo some of the damage that had been done in their relationship previously and coming directly himself to really solidify this. To show how serious he is about it, but at great physical cost and the Sea Snake really teasing that out as well. Pretty rude of the Sea Snake to not be there when Viserys shows up, don't you think? 

Richard Lawson: Yes. Yeah. I, I, I was really intrigued by the, the dynamic of this discussion. You know, of like the terms of the arrangement. Obviously the king was not gonna, you know, concede the, the last name thing or whatever, but like, obviously this is good in the very, very short term for the Sea Snake and his family, but also as is later pointed out by his wife, like very, very dangerous possibly. And so I'm just, I, I, I, I guess maybe their backs, they feel they're up against a wall to some extent, but like, um, I like that, it's not a sort of like that they're aware of all the possible facets, all the possible outcomes here. They're not just thinking in, you know, unilaterally in, in like a, okay, good, we're gonna be, get a, our son into the, into the, the center of power. 

Josh Wigler: Right. I think, you know, the, the Sea Snake, it's, you know, it, if, if it's gone unnoticed by, by certain people, it's worth emphasizing. He is this, this, you know, really seasoned, experienced adventurer. He has seen, you know, we hear from, from Rhaenyra when she and Criston are gonna be talking on the boat a little while from now about, uh, what you want me to just like sail off with you all the way to Asshai. He's been there, uh, the Sea Snake has. He's been there, he has been everywhere. He has, uh, built his, his, his house in, in a really very real way on the riches that he's accumulated over the course of many of these adventures so much so that HBO reportedly wants to make a show about it. It's one of the, one of the possible successor shows that's still in development is one about the young version of the Sea Snake. So we think that there is a fearlessness to him. There is a decisiveness to him as well. He even mentioned it back in episode two when he tells, uh, when he tells Viserys that you can either sail around a storm or you can sail right into it, but you should never await it's coming. And so maybe sensing the, you know, the stakes of the danger in the air right now, if he's looking at the situation the same way that Otto Hightower is for instance, that when Viserys goes and Rhaenyra is the person who has been, uh, named as heir and is gonna ascend to the Iron Throne, and if the realm really isn't going to accept that, where does he wanna be within that? It sounds to me like he would like to sail right into that storm. And perhaps Rhaenys, who is experienced in, in this having almost been the Queen of Westeros herself once upon a time, feels like, you know what? I would much prefer sailing around the storm. I was in the eye of the storm, let me tell you about the eye of the storm. Overrated. Not so great. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. yeah, yeah. You know, I, I think it, the, these scenes establish really well, I mean this whole episode does, that there are no perfect options here. You know, there's only like, what do we think? Okay, thinking four moves ahead. Like, you know, we want the high ground, but what does that high ground look like? And who does that align us with? Like these people in all of their striving have like, you know, kind of brought this all on themselves in a way. And, um, so there's something a little bit, not schadenfreude esque, but like, but deserved about it, you know? It's like, you've all been jockeying for this and here's what's gonna, you know, here's the mess that you're gonna make of it and already have made of it. Um, and I think it's, it's interesting to watch, you know, consequence close in around them. 

Josh Wigler: Yeah, absolutely. Um, one other note from, uh, what's going on with the Sea Snake and Rhaenys once they get a moment to, to talk, did you catch that the Sea Snake is apparently just collected the Crab Feeder's mask as a trophy? I feel like that's kind of, uh, grim that that's just in his throne room. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. Yeah. Considering who the crab feeder was killing, you know, like it's an odd, it's an odd prize to have, um, you know, uh, and I guess-

Josh Wigler: I hope he washed it, you know? It should have been sterilized.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. Right. Well, you can boil it and then you can make- 

Josh Wigler: It's a nasty artifact. 

Richard Lawson: If you boil it, you make crab stock with the, with the little-

Josh Wigler: Yeah. A very flavorful soup. Uh, yeah. Yeah. It takes a lot to make a stew. Um, okay, so let's talk about Rhaenyra and her betroth, uh, Ser Laenor Knight of House Velaryon, uh, son of the Sea Snake and Rhaenys, uh, and Rhaenyra and Laenor are cousins. Uh, so they are related. Um, this is now an improvement over uncle and niece and an improvement over sister and two year old brother, if nothing else.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, their walk on the beach, um, is I think a really sweet and sort of, you know, nimbly written scene, um, where, you know, Rhaenyra is like, you're gay and that's okay. Like I also have my own thing going on. So let's just like, we've known each other, our whole lives, let's just like do this thing for our parents and then we can, we'll just be friends, we'll hang out. And that like, you know, and, and Laenor seems so relieved by that. And they, they form this special little bond together. And any time that happens in the, in the world of George R. R. Martin, you know, it's gonna be short lived. You know, like there are no, any moment of sweet, any moment of sweetness is gonna be very violently challenged probably, you know, a few scenes later.

Josh Wigler: I mean, it does happen within this episode, right, that his boyfriend is gonna be horribly killed. Yeah. Uh, by, by Ser Criston, so it's like really, really short lived. Was, was the, was the pacing of that surprising to you, Richard? Or does that feel kind of, of a piece of the pace of the show right now and a pace of the franchise, maybe even. 

Richard Lawson: Well, you know, as, as any of the, uh, the old school fans can tell you, uh we know that this show is gonna be, um, particularly hard on, um, any sort of queer romance in the, in the show. Um, you know, and, and I think that's a little frustrating in a way, but, um, you know, I understand, um, that this, that, that just needs to, that the, the death of Joffrey who is, you know, Laenor's secret boyfriend, um, is, is, is kind of hurling Laenor more into the center of the story, you know, um, because you have to wonder like what this moment on the beach, it seems like there, he and his, you know, soon to be wife are seeing very eye to eye, but will that change it at all? Like what what's gonna happen? So I, I understand it from a narrative perspective, it's just a shame that, like, we now have at least two in a pattern, uh, in the _Game of Thrones_ universe, uh, where any sort of gay romance is very violently, uh, torn pretty quickly after it's introduced.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Uh, no, it's, it's really, it's really brutally done. Um, it, I, I wrote about this for vf.com. The way that it plays out in, in the book is, is different. Um, it happens during... we're we're we hear that the, that the celebration is gonna last for several days, right? That this is the welcome feast. We're gonna have seven days of, of jousting. It's gonna be a tournament, the whole nine yards. Um, and, and Joffrey goes up against Criston Cole during the tournament and Criston Cole just unleashes his rage on Joffrey there, uh, and Joffrey lives for, you know, another few days before, before he passes and Laenor is by his side the whole time. The show did it a lot more graphically, uh, and did it a lot faster. Yeah. Um, it did it in the space of a single episode. He's a character that appears, I think in two sentences in, uh, in, in _Fire and Blood,_ um, but the, the, the life that is, uh, that is brought to him on this show, um, by believe the actor is a Solly McLeod, uh, who is, uh, who really, I thought even in one episode, Richard, best Joffrey of the _Game of Thrones_ franchise, I think, uh, decidedly.

Richard Lawson: Yes. Yes. 

Josh Wigler: I guess, depending on your, your love to hate status, uh, yeah. 

Richard Lawson: I mean, he still kind of an asshole, you know, and also again, like talking about, um, uh, uh Rhaenys and, and the, the Sea Dragon talking about like, okay, like, are we hurling ourselves into danger here? Like, and, and, you know, maybe all of this was unnecessary. They could have just enjoyed their own sort of place in the ecosystem of Westeros and not gotten, uh, over extended by trying to put themselves very much at the center of power. And like here you have Joffrey, it's like, just don't say anything, what are you doing? Like, like you're making this worse and worse and worse. And so these people are, are all kind of power mad and they, you know, they, they're gonna suffer the consequences either immediately in the case of Joffrey or later on in the case, I'm, I'm sure many of these other characters. So it's frustrating, but it's also like just, this is who these people are, and this is how they've gotten to this position.

Josh Wigler: Not to, um, to, to, you know, I, I feel like it's worth pointing out as well. Um, you know, we talked a couple minutes ago about the Sea Snake's old wisdom of you sail into the storm, or you sail around it, but you must never ignore it, uh, at all costs. Uh, and there's this moment between him and his wife in the throne room where he's saying Rhaenyra is a great match, he must be really excited. Laenor must be so excited. She's gotten more comely in the years since then. And Rhaenys is trying to say, you know, our son is gay, right? You know, right. This is, this is not, this is not a, a thing that he's going to be super excited about. And you even see the Sea Snake is, is, you know, classically trying to ignore it or he'll grow out of it and everything. So, um, adding further, further tragedy to the, to the whole situation for sure. 

Richard Lawson: And that stubbornness and that refusal to like, see the whole of the truth, um, seems to be kind of Corlys's Achilles heel right now. You know, like, like, he's gonna keep getting into trouble if he's gonna be so prideful and, and, you know, I think that it, it, it's, it's telling that, that Rhaenys who has had her own losses, her own failures, her own regrets in the past, um, is much more attuned to like the nuances of things than her husband is. You know, she's like, look, things don't always work out exactly as you want them to and we have to be able to be adaptable. And like, we're, we're fixing this with our son to some extent. All I'm saying is don't expect him to have some glorious sex life with his new wife. Like that's not gonna happen. But everything else could work out, maybe, you know? But he, he doesn't see it that way. Everything has to be exactly as he, as he wants it to be. 

Josh Wigler: Well, it also, it's again, another crusade, you know, the way that he talks to, to, to Rhaenys about this is by all rights, you should be the queen of the seven kingdoms. You were robbed of the crown. I wanna remedy the small minded error of the rest of the realm by any means necessary. Small minded error is a, uh, a really long way to say the misogyny of the realm. Um, but you know, he, he feels very strongly about you are wronged and I'm going to write it. Um, that attitude, Richard, I have found fairly works out terribly well for people, but we'll see, we'll see how that works out. Um, okay. So we, we are going to, we're gonna leave Driftmark. We're leaving with a marriage pact. We're leaving with a very ill Viserys and we are leaving with a Ser Criston Cole having an existential crisis. Richard, he essentially is going to in, you know, the cold light of day at dawn, he's going to find, uh, Rhaenyra on the ship and, you know, very boldly talk about, I have a plan. We could go to Essos. I wanna see what is beyond Westeros. Um, we could be nameless. We could be free to go wherever we like, love how we, like you could marry me, a marriage for love and not for the crown. Um, she is, uh, all, but just saying hard pass, uh, you know, in this moment. I am the dragon, you think I'm gonna give that up for, for you? Uh, this is, um, this is, this is a tough, tough read for, for Ser Criston Cole. This gives him a whole, a whole lot of existential dread that happens in this moment where he realizes, what did I just break my oath for? 

Richard Lawson: Right, right. Yeah. And, and, you know, the, the, the poignancy of, of any story like this, any classical tragedy, you know, you almost kind of narratively have to, at least for a moment, introduce the alternative. Like what if we did just go and lived on our own and left all of this behind. You know, it, it sort of, it, it presents a possibility that I think a lot of these people have never even considered. That, like, there is a place somewhere. I mean, it's very _West Side Story,_ you know, somewhere out there, like there is a life that would be ours and right, free of all of this conflict. Um, and you always know, because it is a trope of, of tragedy that one of the, one of the two part, one of the parties is not gonna agree to it, you know, because they're, they're not gonna, um, it's not gonna be acceptable or it will seem too impossible. And... so we know that that's the refusals coming, certainly, but it still registers painfully because you're, you start to think about it and you're like, yeah, that does sound a lot better. You know, if these were real people, I would tell them, please do exactly what Cole said he wanted to do. 

Josh Wigler: Oh, yes. Yeah. Uh, there's definitely, uh, you know, oh, the show is ongoing. We're in episode five, we have had, we have no idea how many episodes long term we are gonna have on _House of the Dragon_, but safe to call this one yet another inflection point, maybe if you just went after that orange and, and, and cinnamon dream that Criston is talking about, uh, we could have called it at five episodes and had a really nice limited series.

Richard Lawson: They, they, they hop in a little row boat from, from the main ship and just row into the's sunset and then, you know, credits role. 

Josh Wigler: It could pull a Gladrial and just jump in, go swimming. They could swim all the way back for sure. So he is, um, he, he takes this very, very poorly. Uh, he says, so what I'm I'm, I'm just your whore. That's how you view me. Uh, and she says, no, I want us to keep going. I want you to be my, my sworn protector, my White Knight. And I don't know if this is, uh, you know, is this communication breakdown? Is this really just wrong headed from both of them, but either way it is, uh, it is, it is a collapse of the relationship at this moment in time at the very least.

Richard Lawson: And it sets the table for what comes to at the very end of this episode or toward the very end, you know, where we now have two young people deeply devoted to, uh, Rhaenyra who have, have pretty brutally realized, like where they stand in her estimation, you know? Like, oh, we're not actually allies. Alicent is not and, uh, Criston is not, you know, they are, they are important to her, but is it sort of selfish and strategic more than it is, you know, equal. And, um, I think those twin realizations in this episode, obviously are gonna come to bear pretty heavily narratively going forward. 

Josh Wigler: A hundred percent. Um, so let's put those two characters together because when the ship pulls in Viserys collapses, he held it together as long as he could. He's going to be taken to his chambers and will check in on him in a moment. Um, but first, uh, Alicent, uh, the queen, who is trying to figure out, okay, did I, did I get this wrong? Uh, was Rhaenyra lying to me. I wanna vet this further, Ser Criston is her sworn protector, uh, stands outside her chambers all night long, he would know. And so she, she brings him to her chambers and says, so this is all that I've got, let me just like draw it out. And he's like, I did it. It was me. I did it. I'm the one. Uh, and he just, he just, he spills like Chunk in _Goonies_. He tell, he tells her everything. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. Um, you know, I've seen that scene a couple times now. What I, what I can't quite suss out is like, is there relief in Alicent at that moment where she's like, oh, they're just like, it's just some young love situation or, or, or is she just seeing more of the, of the bad picture of Rhaenyra, you know, develop?

Josh Wigler: Right. Um, I think that the way that, that this reads to me in this moment is, you know, she's trying to figure out on her radar, what, what she is trying to figure out is there is this rumor, there is this, there's this, uh, there's this source that told her father who went to the king and got fired over giving this news report about Daemon and Rhaenyra being together. She's now heard about the tea as well, which flies in the face of Rhaenyra telling Alicent, 'I swear on my mother, nothing happened.' Um, so she's vetting that story further with Criston and when Criston cops to being the one who, who slept with Rhaenyra, it's, it's the, it's the answer that she feared and yet the answer that she didn't even know was an answer to a question that she wasn't even thinking to ask, uh, that it could be this person, that it could be this man. Um, and just in discharging him in this moment when he, you know, consumed with guilt, consumed with, you know, this existential crisis of please don't geld me, but yet you can kill me. I, I broke my oaths. I deserve to die. She just sends him on, on his, on his way. I think it's in, in this moment, the pain is so close to the, to the surface that she's not thinking any deeper about, well, what will happen between me and Ser Criston Cole? You know, what, what do I do with this knowledge of what Ser Criston Cole did? The hurt is just so right there, the injury has just occurred in the deepest of ways. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. And, and, you know, she's been, she's been lied to, and I guess, you know, Rhaenyra could maybe sort of flip it around if they were to have some sort of confrontation, maybe they will, I don't know, where it was like, well, you went behind my back and married my father, but like Alicent didn't really have any agency in that decision, you know?

Josh Wigler: Correct. Yeah. 

Richard Lawson: So she's kind of emerging as one of the more egregiously wronged characters in this show. You know, um, in, you know, she's been lied to, she's been forced into a strategic marriage that has now kind of blown up in everyone's faces and put her at great risk. And, um, I'm really curious to see what's next for her. I mean, it's my hunch given the way this episode ends that this, we might be arriving at the time jump with the new actors that we talked about early on in this season. We are halfway through, it would be kind of a neat punctuation point. Um 

Josh Wigler: Sure. There are main cast, series regulars, who have yet to appear on the show, you know, front billed characters, so, you know, you would think with five episodes left, maybe they're gonna start showing up. 

Richard Lawson: Especially because Olivia Cooke, who, who is gonna play older, Alicent, like is one of the more, namier, one of the namier actors in this, in the series from what I, you know, right, right. Um, you know, you have Rhys Ifans obviously, but like, there are some bigger names, Eve Best, but like, Olivia Cooke's been like kind of a, a, a up and coming actor for a while now and, and, um, I would assume that that means that Alicent, in whatever episode Olivia Cooke pops up in, um, is gonna be pretty central to the story and I'm, I'm, I think they've laid that groundwork very subltey whereas a lot of the other stuff with like Daemon and, and Rhaenyra herself has been a bit more, um, you know, direct and blunt. And, but with Alicent, we're seeing a long payoff of like, here's where this character was being positioned because, um, actually a lot of our empathy is now supposed to be placed on her, which I think is a fascinating development. 

Josh Wigler: Well, I think it, I think it's really smartly told, right, because Alicent's journey is such a lonely one. Uh, you know, she is, you know, who, who are her allies? It was Rhaenyra and she's lost that friendship because of circumstances, you know, mostly, largely beyond her control, if not completely beyond her control. Uh, is it her father who has just been fired, but also he pimped her out to the king? Is it the king who is this, you know, sore covered, man, who maybe sometimes is a nice enough guy, but also super gross, and this is gross and he's also spineless a lot of the time? She does not have... she doesn't have the, you know, the, the people that maybe Rhaenyra has/ she doesn't have, even the people that that Daemon has on, on the battlefield. Her story is such a lonely one that I think that the way that the show has rolled her story out matches the, the loneliness of her journey. That it has been such a long haul to get deeper into Alicent's level of thinking, and when she's gonna make her grand arrival at the welcome ceremony a couple of scenes from now, it's like she's showing up on the show for the first time, in some ways.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And you know, I mean, I, I obviously like nothing matches up one to one, but like you see a lot of Sansa Stark in her at this point. You see some Jon, um, Snow in some ways like isolated, you know, uh, sort of has a, a familial shame now that Hightower has been dismissed, you know? Um, but so I, I,_ Game of Thrones_ is not always just about like blood thirsty power, mad people, like there are other, there are at least one or two in any given season or any given episode, people who have a little more decency and I think the audience are supposed to sympathize with. And clearly Alicent, um, is gonna be that figure. What I'm- will be curious to see going forward now that we've had this huge inflection point on the show, is, does she become as blood thirsty as the rest of them or does she remain a bit more, not innocent exactly, but, um, you know, gentle. 

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Well, I think, I think it's a, it's a great observation. I think it's very easy to compare her since she's the queen of Westeros to another queen of Westeros who, who we have known in, in Cersei and we don't see Cersei as a young person, except for the one time where you see this weird flashback, uh, scene that usually never happens on _Game of Thrones_ and yet they did it once upon a time. It was strange, the mag the frog of it all. Um, but you don't see her her story when she was, when she was married to Robert, you hear about. You hear about those days and you see a lot of that lovelessness and, and frankly abuse in the relationship between the two of them during season one of, of _Game of Thrones_. But when you think about the, the, you know, the situation that Cersei herself was thrust into, it is terrible. Um, and I think in Alicent, um, right now, we are, we are getting a chance to, to kind of see what that process may have looked like for a character who, as, as delicious as a performance as Laena Headey gave, as, as Cersei Lannister throughout much of _Game of Thrones_, she's typically a loathsome some character. Uh, and does so many loathsome things. Um, but what pre- what predated that I guess is the question. And I think to some extent there is this there's this bit of the, like the queen's origin story happening with, with Alicent that I think they've, uh, done really interestingly here. 

Richard Lawson: And what will that mean, you know, if we do jump ahead in time, uh, next episode, let's say, um, how old is Aegon gonna be? How old is that son of hers gonna be? And will, will we see the sort of fierce protectiveness and you know, that Cersei exhibited, you know, that she had loathsome some, well, one loathsome child that, who she like would, you know, burn the whole city down for if she had to you know, and will, will that be the root that Alicent kind of develops, uh, into, or will it be something else? Will we root for her, um, going forward? Um, I don't know, but all of a sudden she's really emerged as I think the most interesting character for me on the show. 

Josh Wigler: Um, so one last scene before we are in wedding mode for the rest of it, uh, is Viserys in his chambers looking rough, and I just want to present one of the most harrowing sentences I've ever heard in my life. This is from one of the maesters who says 'rest now your grace, I will bring the leeches.' Um, it's not what I wanna hear when I'm feeling sick. 

Richard Lawson: No, no, no, but if apparently gives him great comfort. So, you know, look, I'm not gonna yuck anyone's yum. 

Josh Wigler: These other guys like, you know, maybe modern medicine, do we wanna do like a poultice maybe he's like, no, he loves the leaches. Yeah. He's into him. Trust me. He loves the leaches. 

Richard Lawson: You know, there's a hospital in Old Town we could just take him to, but-

Josh Wigler: Yeah, we could just get on a dragon and go. Yeah. Um, so he, he looks awful. His arm looks awful. His, you know, his, his color is drained, he just looks so ill. Um, and he is, yet again, this is the, the story of the day, Richard, it is another existential crisis. He is wondering about his place in history. He's saying, will I be remembered as a good king? Hundreds of years of now from now will be they, will they be singing stories about me, uh, singing songs about me at feasts? Um, I often thought that, uh, I wish that I'd been tested. I had no great victories. I have no great defeats. I wish I'd been tested. I often think that in the crucible, I may have been forged a different man. And I love this scene very much because this poor fool does not realize he is in the crucible. He is there right now.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. Yeah, exactly, and it's just coming toward the end of what looks to be the end of his life. Um, and the results of his legacy are the real legacy he probably won't live to see because by nature, his most important act is one that will only really come to fruition once he's dead. You know, it was a big, it's a big deal that he made his successor the first ever, you know, potential female ruler of this country. Um, and that's big and maybe, you know, I don't, I mean, I'm, I don't think things are gonna go very well in, in terms of that handover transfer of power. 

Josh Wigler: What gives you the sense of that? 

Richard Lawson: Maybe the back half is like kind of a workplace comedy. I don't know, but uhhuh, um, you know, and, and, you know, I I'm sure that there would be plenty of people in Westeros's years, you know, after this, who would be like, yeah, it led to a whole big mess, but like good for him for trying. You know, he was trying to help break that glass ceiling and, you know, he doesn't probably see it exactly that way, but he did make it least one bold definitive world changing choice. It's just one that he won't ever see the results of by it's very definition. 

Josh Wigler: It's just, it's just so, it's so compelling to me because I think it is, it is, it is so human to not know when you're in the crucible, uh, that you're in it. 

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: You know, you're so deep in the belly of the beast that you have no idea you've been swallowed up at all. Uh, and like, certainly this man is very sick, he's delirious almost. Um, but I think that there is, there is this... is it, is it willful ignorance? Does he have more of a sense of, of where he is, you know, um, you know, both literally and existentially than, than he's letting on, that he would care to admit to himself right now? I just thought it was a really fantastically written scene and just performed beautifully by, by both actors, um, in, in the scene. Um, I'm really, I really love what Gavin Spokes is doing as Lyonel Strong and I think that the two of them together in the scene, it was, it was gentle, it was sad, it was tragic as seven Hells. Uh, I thought it was, I thought it was really, really, really good. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. And if it is indeed to send off for this character and this actor, um, it's, it's good. I mean, it's, it's really strong and, um, lends some real human shape to, uh, what you know is often this, this season so far is very process oriented. Very like, okay, then, you know, causality and this was just a moment of quiet reflection, um, as a character faces, you know, their end. 

Josh Wigler: Okay. So it's time for the welcome ceremony and it's a, it's a blockbuster event. We're gonna be here for just about the rest of the episode. Uh, dragon's riding high over King's Landing, the Sea Snakes fleet, the whole thing, it looks like showing up. Um, everybody, it's a, it's a veritable who's who, of the, the Westeros crew here on _Game of Thrones_ show, and it's Jason Lannister, both of the Lannister twins. I don't think we've checked in since, uh, Lannister twins showed up on the show. Do you have any strong takes about Jason Lannister? 

Richard Lawson: Well, just that I, you know, I don't know in this world if you introduce a Lannister of Lannisters plural, that they're just gonna be background characters who are, who are they are only to be like, oh yeah, like the family that's later in all that power, you know, I, I, I would have to imagine that, um, you know, the Lannister project that we see where it is, uh, in the original _Game of Throne_ series probably took a lot of time to, to build up to and so maybe we're seeing, you know, once- yet another noble family of great wealth and power throwing, starting to sort of throw a hat in the ring. I mean, he already tried kind of with the proposal, but, um, yeah. So I guess we should, we should keep an eye on, on him and, you know, any other Lannister that appears. 

Josh Wigler: All Lannisters must be watched. Um, Ser Gerold of the Vale he shows up, he wants to, um, I think he wants to speak his piece about what happened to Lady Rhea at the start of this episode. A unique character whose kind is not likely to be seen again he says. And Rhaenyra is going to address it when it's interrupted by the grand arrival of the Sea Snake, Lord Corlys of House Velaryon on Master of Tides, Lord of Driftmark. It's just a, a really epic rollicking introduction, uh, Prince Laenor, future King Consulate. Everyone is really, really, you know, everyone's getting up, you know, the, the crowd is lit here, Richard, uh, for, for this occasion. And then the tune changes really quickly. There's a big sort of hold my beer energy to this scene where it starts with the Sea Snake. You think you can't top it, here comes Prince Daemon showing up. He has been kicked out of King's Landing and he did not ask for permission. He's not begging for forgiveness either and he's just showing up and rolling into town. And the very, ill Viserys does not look thrilled to see his brother and you would think that that would be to show stopper. Queen Alicent rolls up in the greenest of green dresses as Larys Clubfoot says the beacon on the Hightower of Old Town glows green when they call their banners to war. This is a declaration of war of sorts. 

Richard Lawson: It is and my question is, and I, you know, and I'm sure you know more about this having read the books is like, who is Alicent gonna align with, you know? Or does she maybe not need it? Maybe the Hightowers and people in Old Town, Old Town is not a location that we really travel too much at all in _Game of Thrones_, so we obviously, um, Sam went, ended up there, right? 

Josh Wigler: Sam spends time there. Yeah. Sam spend time there. He's training up. Yep. 

Richard Lawson: But it's like the biggest city in this in Westeros and, and yeah, we spend more time in, in, in King's Landing. So I'm just curious about what that, that power looks like, that might looks like and who it aligns with and, um, yeah, I just, in terms of the under better understanding the world of this, of this show, like, I'll be curious to see what that green signal really means. 

Josh Wigler: I think, um, one of the things that's worth chewing on as you, as you ponder that question and anyone out there who's pondering the same, who hasn't, who hasn't read this is, um, yeah, what's the might of, what does the might of the Hightower house, what does the might of Old Town actually look like in practice? Um, but you think back to episode three, when the aforementioned Jason Lannister is telling King Viserys, I would love to marry your daughter. She won't, you know, she'll be well compensated for her loss of station. Uh, and him kind of, you know, tipping his hand of the revelation that many of us out here are assuming that you're gonna name your son as the heir now that you have a son and his name happens to be Aegon. Um, and so there is that sentiment and you even get it when Alicent has a moment alone with her uncle, uh, and he says that, you know, know that Old Town stands with you. There are people who are going to clinging for dear life to the patriarchal idea of a man has to sit on the Iron Throne and no chance is a woman going to sit there. Uh, and in this, in this move of showing up wearing colors that are decisively from her house, that are decisively of Old Town, decisively of House Hightower, um, breaks away from Targaryen tradition. You know, in this very, very clear visual signal. And I think that that is this mark of independence for Alicent and what does it mean in terms of who specifically she might be collecting for whatever cause it is, she might be championing. At the very least, it seems like her making a choice, uh, of the choices that were laid available to her by her father at the start of the episode, either, uh, you win or you die to, to paraphrase another _Game of Thrones_ character. So I think that that's, that's the really big takeaway, um, that people should be looking at I think, uh, from my viewpoint, uh, of Alicent's big arrival here. It's just a mar- it's a, it's a marker of, of, um, breaking away from this house that she's been married off to. It's her first real public of agency that we've seen from her since she's become the queen. 

Richard Lawson: And, you know, if we, if what happens to Viserys at the very end of this episode is in fact what we think happens, which is that he's dead, she is both in a precarious position, but also freed a bit. You know, um, her, she, she, she can probably more, uh, freely seek out, uh, you know, the council of her father who was a master strategist and anyone else, you know, um, it, she, she was, she had to kind of be in Viserys's, you know, shadow, but now if he's gone, um, she, it kind of activates her that much more.

Josh Wigler: Right, right. Um, monumental moment. Uh, I, I was very excited to see this once I watched it on the screen. It's a little, it's a little different from how it goes down in the book in the book, uh, there is this, there's this, um, five year anniversary of King Viserys and Queen Alicent's wedding. Uh, and she is showing up wearing green and Rhaenyra, who is not the biggest Alicent fan and vice versa at that moment in the story is showing up in Targaryen black and red. So when you hear about the blacks and the greens, this is something that is commonly associated when you're talking about people who are associated with, uh, Rhaenyra and Alicent respectively. It stems from that moment in the book. Um, notably, uh, I think that the emphasis in the book is on Rhaenyra's attire. The emphasis on the show is very much more on, on Alicent. So an adaptation choice that I thought visually was, was really, really striking and, and, and quite strong. So the dancing, uh, begins here, the dance at the dragons. Uh, this is the one, this is it. This is what you've heard about. It's not, uh, but it's a good dance scene, uh, as we're getting this moment between Laenor and Rhaenyra that we talked about already. This, this whole conversation of I was never much of a dancer, not that much different from combat. Everybody's watching, and then everybody joins into dance and it is this, this big celebratory atmosphere while, uh, while _House of the Dragon_ then goes on to do all of the things that you expect from _Game of Thrones_, right? Like all of the side conversations, all of the secret little intricate wheeling and dealings that occur in between all of these dance moves. Uh, we have Daemon being confronted by Ser Royce of Rhunestone and him, you know, being just this, this wicked little bratty prince that he is of, oh, well now I'm, I, I believe because she died and we had no kids, I get everything. Uh, so I'm gonna be flying to the Vale, I'll see you pretty soon there, Ser Gerold, uh, you know, he clocks his name. That's a pretty dangerous moment. Uh, what did you think of this whole, of this whole scene? The atmosphere, the vibe, the choreography, Richard? 

Richard Lawson: Well, I think, you know, we have the crucial thing of, um, Laenor and Joffrey talking about like, all right, who is her secret beau, you know? And then meanwhile, Rhaenyra is not being subtle at all in staring at Criston, you know? And, uh, she will later see exactly what that led to. Um, and I, you know, I think it's another reminder as evidence last week with this sort of reckless trip outside the castle and all this other stuff that like Rhaenyra is shrewd and smart and, and, uh, certainly headstrong, but she's also like, she's not yet good at like the, the, the subtler arts of this or whatever, you know, dance or game she's playing. Um, and that, you know, she's, she's not some perfect portrait of like, just like power made manifest. She makes mistakes. She's, she's messy and I think that's a really important kind of character detail to keep in mind about her. Um, and you know, there's a, a, a kind of a, a, a witlessness about her that like, you know, she, she is in the position to cause great harm to people and she does, she wields that, uh, kind of unconsciously and unthoughtfully. And, um, obviously that's, that's what happens in this scene because she gives up the Ghost. She, she maybe doesn't know that there are people looking at her, trying to figure out what her connection is to any, any, some man in the room, but like, uh, she's, she's not, um, she's pretty brazen about it and it leads to bad places. And I, I think that probably will be a, a pattern with her. 

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Uh, a couple of character interactions that I think are worth noting. We talked about, um, Daemon and Ser Gerald, but there's also Daemon and Laena Velaryon. That is the, the young girl who has grown up a little bit in the, in the many, many time jumps since episode two that, um, uh, a bit of a flirtation, uh, seems to be occurring between the two of them, Richard. 

Richard Lawson: Yes. Yeah. And where that would go, I don't know. I mean, obviously, uh, Daemon and the Velaryons were, were aligned a couple episodes ago, I guess, still sort of technically are I, you know, it's, it's kind of muddy where Daemon stands in anyone's estimation, but like clearly they still seem, you know, was she dispatched by her father to do that? Like, are they just trying to cover all their bases? Um, I don't know, but clearly this show is setting tables for what's to come in the back half of the season and, and having that character, uh, kind of, you know, she's older now she's clearly asserting a, a lot more agency like that's again, not an accident. She- I'm sure she will be an another, um, significant player going forward. 

Josh Wigler: Uh, Ser Joffrey observes Criston, um, dutifully watching Rhaenyra though, perhaps, uh, it is, it is just a little more than being her knight, her sworn protector. Uh, I think Joffrey recognizes within Criston what is going on here. Uh, and he goes and, and speaks to him and thinks that they're speaking the same language of, um, the, the, the future king is as dear to me as the future queen is to you, we'll guard them together. We can be in this together. This will be something that protects all of us. And Criston is, is rigid, uh, and is, um, unflinching in this moment. That will change very severely very soon. Um, but this moment is just it's, it's loaded with danger in hindsight, it's just, it's so... not that it wasn't awful to watch on the first pass for me, but in hindsight, this is just such a, such a tragic scene of this, this sharing of information, this attempt at connection with this guy. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. And like, maybe I'm reading too much into it from a personal perspective, but like it's also like a gay guy overstepping and thinking that he's safe and, uh, you know, Criston, you know, kind of being like get away from, you know, like it's very like, um, I'm not like you, you know? And we, we're not, we're not on the same path. We're not the same people. Um, and obviously Joffrey suffers mightily for that. Granted, he was trying to do something slimy and sort of, you know, like, you know, sneaky and, and, and trying to, you know, already trying to court advantage, you know, in this new situation. Um, so he's not a hundred percent innocent in it, but I thought it was an interesting, uh, further development in Criston's character where like he has, he's not just some quietly handsome, you know, in... soldier in love. He he's, he's got a, a streak in him, a bad, bad streak in him that, uh, clearly leads him into almost, uh, suicide.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Um, I mean, I think, I think a lot of it for, for me, it's like this, this whole, this whole scene, this whole coming together, a lot of this is okay, well, you know, let's meet the family, right? You know, I've heard so much about you. Uh, and I think that there, there is a big element of that in Joffrey for me of, well, I, it seems like we're gonna be spending a lot of time together. You know, kind of, um, and it's just, it's just, he's, you're exactly right, he's talking about the exact wrong person. Uh, and, uh, you know, he, he has no context for what the real relationship with Criston and Rhaenyra is and Criston just, you know, is gonna unload, uh, in this unbelievably horrific way. Um, in, in just a couple moments. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. And I think that, you know, we talked about this in the first episode where they comp- you know, during the jousting they talked about, and, and also later on, when they're selecting, like who will be the new member of the Kings Guard like that these boys, these young men, like they haven't been to war. Criston has seen battle in the Dornish Incursion, so he has more experience than them. But a lot of the other young people in this scene, or on this show, they're kind of just playing at this stuff. You know, they, they don't really, they haven't, they, in their lifetimes, they haven't really seen the dires of, of, of consequences for this stuff. So it, I think it's an interesting demarcation point where it's like, Joffrey's just kind of like, you know, a pampered Lord of the court or whatever, and is just- 

Josh Wigler: He was there, he, he was at the war of the Stepstones. He's, he's very, very briefly in, in episode three more, you know, a little more than background player, but he, he has three years of, of, of war, but I think, you know, broadly speaking and then like the, the context of what is the culture of the kingdom for sure.

Richard Lawson: Because that was, that was adventurism. That was, you know, kind of gentleman of, of the British Empire, like, oh, we'll have a marry old war and we'll go, you know, do this-

Josh Wigler: Hide and seek, you know, glorified.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. And now, and now this is like, well, now this is about you specifically and like, you are in danger and this is not stuff to be played with. And I think that, um, you know, Criston is offer- operating from a, a much, um, you know, more like visceral personal angst in this thing. But like, I think this is just like a crucial introduction that like, you are not safe at a fancy people's party anymore. You know? You know, you're in danger when you're at, at, you know, fighting, you know, battles on the beach or whatever, but like, you're kind of in danger all the time and it, people are gonna have to wake up pretty quickly to that fact.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, this is, you know, the proverbial 'A Stark goes south,' right? You know, this is like, just stay in the north, don't come down here. Um, so we're gonna get this, uh, we're gonna get this dance between Daemon and Rhaenyra now. Um, I guess on the other side of a very quick dance between Rhaenyra and Break Bones, Ser Harwin Strong. They have a quick little dossy dough before Daemon cuts. And once again, some high Valyrian exchanges between these two characters and it feels like Daemon's last pitch of is this really what you want? Uh, you really wanna be married to, you know, a good man, you know, admittedly, but a boring one. This is how you want to, to move forward? And she doesn't well then take me, has that not been your purpose? I'm not married yet. The hours are passing. I'm sure you're armed, cut through my father's King's Guard, take me to Dragonstone and make me your wife. Uh, and so there's this really, really tense conversation happening between the two of them in this language that is not shared exclusively by the two of them, but it, it feels that way sometimes. And Viserys is just pounding lobster or crab baby at his, at his royal seat watching this go down. Um, you know, wrecked with, uh, with, with all of the feelings that are swirling around this relationship from everything that he has heard recently, from everything that he feels independently towards these two people, and the view is obscured from him. And then from us, I would say, Richard, I don't know. I would really be curious to know, like, what was your view of how all of this ultimately goes to shit? 

Richard Lawson: Uh, it, it felt, it felt sort of sudden. Are you, do you mean like the kind of scuffle that ends with Joffrey dead, you mean?

Josh Wigler: Yes, yes. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it, it, it, I think it's interesting that like it, when we realize something's happening the camera's not on it happening, you know, at first it. It's sort of just like in this blur of people and I, I think that, you know, I guess you could see something metaphorical in that about like, um, you know, this is, this is gonna start like instantly. You know, like, and you're not gonna necessarily see it coming. It's just gonna not be happening where everyone's gonna be dancing and having a party one minute, and the next it's war. You know, so, so that, that worked for me and I, you know, but going back to the Daemon and, uh, Rhaenyra conversation, it's like yet again I don't think she's thinking clearly about like the consequences of what she's saying and suggesting. And, and, um, she's a little drunk on her, her prowess and her intellect and, um, you know, and then all of a sudden this thing breaks out that's gonna have massive consequences. And, uh, you know, I think it's pretty deliberate that we don't see it. We, you know, we see the, the, the lead up to it, but then we cut away and then all of a sudden it's a catastrophe.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. I mean, it's almost like anything could have set this off. It's a powder keg, right? Right. Like the whole place was soaked in oil. Uh, all it would take, uh, was, was or wildfire even like it would take one match one, one slowly burning candle to blow up the whole place. Um, so it's, it's almost presented to us, um, whether or not maybe some people out there would've, would've preferred more clarity. I, I've gone back and forth on it myself a little bit, but I think that there is a world where the interpretation of, of how it's filmed and how it's presented to us. Richard is kind of like, um, anything could have set this off it. The candle was burning down all the way to the bottom no matter what. 

Richard Lawson: And you like then think forward to like the age of Daenerys and the Targaryens kind of exile in, you know, across the Narrow Sea and, uh, you hear about the Mad King and all this stuff and you're like, no wonder Westeros was like, get those Targaryens outta here. They only cause problems like, yeah, we want big jolly fat Robert Baratheon on the throne. He likes to hunt and he was a war hero and he got the Targaryens out. So like, like that's so much better than these people who every, even at, you know, they can't even have a simple party without, um, some sort of dynastic power struggle leading to murder.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, well, it's like, it's a, it's this grand game of King of the Hill and the Targaryens have been the king of the hill for the entirety of their arrival. You know, their reign since they've arrived. And I think a lot of what you see from the characters on the show in, in this period of time specifically, and then in _Game of Thrones_, we're living in the aftermath of it is that we are, we are dealing with people who wanna cozy up to the King of the Hill. They wanna make sure that they're on the, the winning side of this and potentially get their chance to shine as, as well. Uh, so I think, um, I think that so much of this show and, and the characters, uh, and their motivations and the stories that spiral out from them, is rooted in this tremendous fear of, of who sits on the throne and the, the literal firepower that's backing them. Uh, and it does not come even remotely close to excusing the atrocities and the evil committed in the name of that fear, but I think that's, you know, it's power, it's fear. Fear is deeply rooted underneath a lot of the actions that, that happen, not just in this episode, but I think across the, across the whole fabric of this entire franchise, really. Um, and it sadly ends in this horrific death scene, uh, of Criston Cole is, um, is gonna take his rejection out specifically on Joffrey. He, he beats him to death in this very, very gruesome scene. We're left with, with Laenor wailing over his body. It's, uh, it's, it's terrible. This is just terrible. 

Richard Lawson: And you kind of wonder, like did Laenor just out himself. You know? Like I guess they could explain it away, no, it's just his dear friend since childhood. He was really sad about that. But it's like, uh, I don't know. I think some of the men in that room would see that reaction and the wheels would start turning, if they weren't already, you know? Yeah. And so you wonder what, what lies ahead for Laenor and then he's not covering up the fact that he's weeping at the wedding, you know? Um, so there, that was a moment of perhaps really dangerous vulnerability on his part. 

Josh Wigler: And I think that, um, you know, how can you forecast that this is gonna be out the first night of your week long wedding celebration is going to go, but this is sort of Rhaenys's prophecy fulfilled, right? You know, we're putting ourselves in danger, we're putting our son in danger and she probably couldn't have even told you it'll happen on the first night/ on the first night we will be in extraordinary danger, but here we are in extraordinary danger and you're absolutely right that during the ceremony that ensues, he's just he's so... he's destroyed. And Rhaenyra, even, even senses that, you get the sense. I wonder what else you read into, into Rhaenyra because she's, she's such a more somber figure in the actual ceremony than she was throughout the entire party. It's like, is she like sobered up in the cold light of day? How, how did you read her reaction to everything?

Richard Lawson: I think so. Yeah. You know, and there- 

Josh Wigler: Like oh shit maybe I should have gone to Essos with Ser Criston Cole. Maybe he wouldn't have beaten a man to death in this horrific hate crime. 

Richard Lawson: Yeah. I mean that violence is not her fault ultimately, but right. Um, but like it, I think, you know, there is, there is a, a moment in any person's life when they're that age that they realize that they have an effect on the world around them. That they're not moving through just as these observers and sort of takers that they are creating ripples of their own. And, and here she is realizing that and also realizing that like she and Criston are, yes, aren't gonna have his, you know, sort of dream of running away. They're certainly not now gonna have the dream of, he stays around and they just have a private affair, you know, for however long. It's like, now they are forever separated and that's one less protector, one less potential ally. Um, and I think, yeah, I think she grows up quite a bit, uh, in the wake of that really bloody incident that, you know, she was in some ways involved with/ again, not to blame her for his, you know, unchecked merit, you know, anger, but like, you know. Man would literally beat someone to death at a wedding, then go to go to therapy kind of thing. But yeah, but, um, you know, I think that she's realizing like, oh, like I'm really in this now, and what I decide to do, the choices I make, yep, are gonna have like really immediate effect. And, and I think that's a, that's a coming of age crucible of its own. 

Josh Wigler: Yeah, absolutely. Um, Ser Criston, who, who walks away from this ready to, uh, to take his own life. He goes out to the Weirwood tree. He, you know, disarms himself, he pulls out the dagger. He is about to, about to do it. He is stopped by Queen Alicent. Uh, Alicent comes and, and finds him. Um, do you get the sense, maybe, she has figured out a use for this man at this point? 

Richard Lawson: I don't know if she has a concrete use for him yet, but I think that she sees the enemy of my enemy as my friend, you know? And I don't know that necessarily you could describe Criston and Rhaenyra as enemies exactly yet, but like clearly they are apart. They have been torn apart and, um, and I think Alicent probably, you know, she's her father's daughter, um, sees some potential utility in that. He's also like a good at, good at fighting obviously and you know, um, he's not from a noble house, but he worked his way up. And, um, yeah, I think that like, she'll take anyone, uh, and he's he, you know, and even if it's just to drive the knife into her friends, her former friend's side, that much more twist the knife that much more. Um, so yeah, I think that's a really striking and surprising little, uh, scene there. And I, um, again, made me kind of that much more curious about where Alicent said it. 

Josh Wigler: Final scene of the episode, final image is Viserys collapsing. He has been on the, you know, he's been teetering on the edge of it the entire episode. He's been bleeding out the nose in the lead up to this specific moment. Um, he, he falls down, everyone huddles over him and straight out of the departed, uh, a rats scurries across the screen. Uh, and is, uh, is feasting on the blood that has, that has fallen, that has been spilled on, on this night. Um, a really, really grim ending to a, a very, very grim episode of _House of the Dragon._ As if there's another kind though. 

Richard Lawson: Yes, exactly. Um, you know, and if this, if this is the end of young, um, young Rhaenyra, young Alicent, um, young, uh Laenor even, um, I, I, I'm really curious to see, you know, if we jump forward in time, clearly they'll have to kind of do some reverse exposition about what happened in the ensuing years, you know, or, or however, however long it's gonna be. Um, because this moment doesn't look like it's gonna lead to a sort of peace ish for a while. It looks like things are about to fall apart all over again, because like, everyone's just like got their, their hands on the story ready to, you know, but so, but if there is a time jump like that must net- I would think that would imply that things don't immediately go to ruin. Um, so I, I, yeah, I'm curious to see how they kind of get around that. Um, that's a tricky narrative obstacle and I'm curious how they're gonna do it. 

Josh Wigler: But I think that the episode for me, uh, anyway, really did feel like it had something of maybe not on _Game of Thrones_ because typically a _Game of Thrones_ finale can be a little quieter than this, but this on another show, maybe had some season finale vibes to it.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. 

Josh Wigler: Uh, then it, then I think, I think you're right to mark that of, uh, you know, feeling like it's the end of something. Um, it certainly looks like it's the end of the Viserys. Um, but it looks like the end of a chapter of some kind that things have been, um, in free fall for a long time on this show, really from, from day dot and every once in a while a dragon sweeps in and catches you and you're flying for a minute before you fall off again. And right now we leave this one, I think, falling without any real visible, um, ledge to hang onto. Uh, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, you know, it, it leaves me with a pit in my stomach and I know where it's going. Uh, so it's a, it's a, it's a compelling, it's a compelling moment in the story I think for, uh, for the first season. For the freshman year of, uh, of this really, really big show for HBO. 

Richard Lawson: And I will be here for all the episodes coming. I don't have any more fancy film festivals to go to sadly so, I will be here till the bitter end. 

Josh Wigler: Good for you. Knowing a little bit of, uh, what I know about what your travel schedule was like, Richard. Yeah. Good for you. I'm, I'm thrilled to have you back. This was really fun for me getting to talk to you about this episode and catching up on everything that's been happening on _House of the Dragon_ up to this point. Uh, and it's been great catching up with all of you out there listening to the podcast. Uh, we hope that you've been enjoying it. So that's gonna do it for us on _Still Watching _this week. Of course, as a reminder, you can write in stillwatchingpod@gmail.com. We wanna hear from you if this is the end of an era of _House of the Dragon_, what do you think of, uh, book one as it were? What do you think of this first arc of the show? Where do you think we are moving into the second movement of this show? All of that feedback we would love to hear from you stillwatchingpod@gmail.com. Richard, where can people find you? Anything you're working on that you wanna plug? 

Richard Lawson: Well, I tweet @rilaws. R I L A W S um, I have reviews and other things at vf.com, including, uh, a bunch of reviews from, uh, the Venice, Toronto Film Festivals, so not exactly related to _House of the Dragon_, but, um, you know, the other side of my job, uh, can be easily found on vf.com. 

Josh Wigler: Amazing. I'm @roundhoward, wherever you can find me on the internet, including, uh, right here, recapping _House_ _of the Dragon _on vf.com every week. Also have, uh, a big book heavy, uh, article that is up on vf.com right now talking about some of the stuff from the book, from the show, uh, that differs from each other's stuff that's very similar in this specific episode, uh, of episode five, uh, that if you wanna check out that's vf.com, uh, the _House of the Dragon_ coverage there that you can investigate further. Before we close out, wanna give a big shout out to the great Dave Gonzales who lights the way for us here on _Still Watching_ behind the scenes. Makes it possible for these episodes of _Still Watching_ to exist. So big, thanks to Dave, uh, and big thanks to all of you out there for listening. We will be back next week talking about episode six of _House of the Dragon._ Until next time everybody, take care. Bye-bye.