King Charles [Archival Audio]: Wherever you may live in the United Kingdom or in the realms and territories across the world, and whatever may be your background or beliefs, I shall endeavor to serve you with loyalty, respect, and love as I have throughout my life.

Erin Vanderhoof: This week caps a truly remarkable moment for the British royal family, and the beginning of a seemingly perilous period. The second Elizabethan Age has ended, and King Charles III has stepped into a role he has been preparing for for his entire life.

Katie Nicholl: As King he must contend with rifts, from personal strife in his family to the intense political fractures in Great Britain and the commonwealth. And there are serious questions about whether Charles can heal those divisions.

Erin Vanderhoof: Welcome to special coverage from _Vanity Fair's Dynasty_. I'm Erin Vanderhoof.

Katie Nicholl: And I'm Katie Nicholl.

Erin Vanderhoof: Katie, I am so glad that we got to come back this week to talk about the many dilemmas that Charles faces, because he obviously features large in your new book, The New Royals, and in the reporting that both of us have done for _Vanity Fair_ recently.

Katie Nicholl: Yes, you're absolutely right Erin. And I think based on the reaction to the new King... It does sound strange doesn't it? Saying "The King". I think it's going to take us all some getting used to. It- It seems that he has the support of his people. You know, I remember very clearly the moment he came back to Buckingham Palace from Balmoral the first time the people in that Capital had seen him as King, and there were rounds of applause, there were cheers for him. But, as I write in the piece that's running in _Vanity Fair_ at the moment, his path isn't guaranteed to be a smooth one.

Erin Vanderhoof: And we're also joined today by our colleague, _Vanity Fair_ contributor Michelle Ruiz. An avid royal watcher and writer, and previous _Dynasty_ visitor. Hey Michelle!

Michelle Ruiz: Hi Katie and Erin. Thank you for having me.

Erin Vanderhoof: So, before we get too deeply into Charles, I think we have to start with the series of mourning events that we got to see on Monday. Events that transfixed the world. I for one was stunned by just how intricately planned every single moment of the funeral was, and it turns out that the Queen had made all these decisions as much as 20 years ago. What did you make of the whole day?

Michelle Ruiz: I'm always most interested in the royal wives and how they fit or do not fit into this whole strange ecosystem, so I was watching Kate and Meghan, but Kate most closely. Specifically because she had just gotten this kind of glow up to Princess of Wales, just such an iconic role last held by Princess Diana. And I thought she really slipped seamlessly into that role, and I'm measuring that really by the kind of elegant, regal portrait of her and her stepping out in that black veiled cat and coat dress by McQueen that so few people could pull off, but she looked completely stately. And I know that the Queen was really clear in wanting Camilla to be named Queen Consort, but I really think Kate is going to be the most significant royal woman now that the Queen is gone, and I noted that she was the one wearing the Queens... All the Queens pearls, her- her tri-strand necklace, and her famous choker. Kate is now the wife of the heir and the mother of another heir, and I think that moment of her bringing her two eldest, very adorable, children through the funeral was another highlight for me. Just kind of showing this family, the young royals family, is the future of this institution.

Katie Nicholl: I think that's really interesting, Michelle, and you're absolutely right to sort of pick out the little details about the jewelry that she was wearing, and- and how she was paying tribute to the queen through wearing her pearls. That beautiful pearl choker, which of course we saw Diana wear as well. And, actually, of all the incredible tributes that came out of the royal family, there wasn't one from the new Princess of Wales. She has been completely silent in her mourning in all of this and she's let her presence do the talking, and it's a very powerful presence.

There were so many messages, there was so much that I know we're going to unpick, and the presence of the two children. Prince George of course, who is now second in line to the throne, accompanied by Princess Charlotte, the new spare to the heir, sent out such a powerful message about _Dynasty_, about succession, about the security of the succession, and I don't believe that William and Kate for a moment would have made that decision lightly. Anyone with young children knows that to take them to a funeral is a- is a big decision, but particularity to a funeral that the world, quite literally, is watching.

Erin Vanderhoof: Katie, you mentioned earlier that it is kind of difficult to get used to saying "The King", and I feel like there's nobody that there is impacting more right now, at least based on watching on TV, than the King himself. I have been so... Even moved by how visibly uncomfortable and overwhelmed, but in a very stoic way, he seems every time everybody else is singing God Save the King and he has to be silent. You can tell that he's going through his own emotional time, but the weight of his job is finally landing for him.

I think the only time that we've really gotten the perfect glimpse of how just, like, logistically complicated this... You know, he's toured all four of the home nations in the last 10 days. He's, you know, been back and forth to Scotland, and y- there's a moment where he is signing a book and his pen is leaky and it's having a little... You know, he's having a little bit of trouble with it. He.. C- Camilla does kind of take it away, and I think that there's the moment that I love the most. Like, in these moments I always kind of really identify with Charles, and of course it went very viral.

Katie Nicholl: Well, we can all relate to a leaky pen, right? And Pengate aside, you saw such a human side to the King. I mean, this is a man, who I discovered while I was researching The New Royals, often cries when he's listening to the opera. He quoted Shakespeare twice, didn't he, in two of his addresses. This is a man who wasn't afraid to show his emotions. I mean, I don't think he realized that the mic was on, um, when he was getting cross with his leaking fountain pen, but I think we saw raw grief and the King made really no attempt to hide that.

Erin, you mentioned the singing of the national anthem and he absolutely seemed to be so emotional every time that was sung. The reality that they are singing the national anthem to the new king obviously hit him very, very hard and he was emotional and- and I think it was... I think it was really admirable that he felt he was able to show that emotion, and there's a wonderful picture, actually, of Princess Anne looking over to Charles just to sort of check that he's okay and you see that wonderful bond between brother and sister. Again, you know, the heir and the spare I suppose. And Anne keeping a watchful eye on Charles. Because, you know, there were points where he didn't look oKay. The grief was written all over his face, and I think in many ways death is a great leveler. In the past twelve days we've seen the royals more real, more relatable, possibly than ever.

Erin Vanderhoof: We've seen them both being more real and relatable, but we've also been watching them I think in these moments that are very carefully choreographed and scripted. and I feel like the way that the body language analyst becomes such an important part of this because we're at this weird paradox where they're both sort of the most raw in public that they can be, but we're also not hearing them say anything.

Nowhere clearly was that more on display than with Harry and Meghan, and I think that I had kind of even forgotten how much I had personally invested in the sense that you want there to be a good family moment. And when I heard that they had gone on their walk in Windsor, like, I... I was genuinely excited for them. I think Harry and Meghan, despite not doing and saying too much, like, really were still the center of a lot of debate and a lot of attention, and I know that that must have bene tough for them, but at the same time it seemed kind of unavoidable.

Michelle Ruiz: Yeah. I think this was such an intense moment of scrutiny for Meghan and Harry. And... And Meghan in- in particular because here was someone who was returning to the royal folds after expressing so publicly how unsupportive and how untenable she had found it to be. But I think, at least by outward appearances, Meghan handled it very graciously. She was solemn, she was dutiful, meeting mourners on that very scrutinized, very photographed block in Windsor. She was composed, I thought she... You know, even though she was seen shedding at least one tear during that final ceremony at Windsor Castle. And I just thought about the fact that she had gotten married there, and presumably had so much optimism at that time, and... And things took such a different turn.

But her return and the way she carried herself I think showed what the queen said about Harry and Meghan in one of her last statements about them. That despite all else, they remain members of this family.

Katie Nicholl: Yeah, absolutely. And Michelle it's worth I think noting, off the back of that, that of course in his first address to the nation the King acknowledged Harry and Meghan. He- he referenced them in first name terms, um, you know some people saw that perhaps as a snub not using their titles. I think it was more a... showing his love for his son and his daughter in law. And, you know, he could have not mentioned them at all, but this was very much I think an olive branch being extended to the couple who of course, I think, were very fortunate actually to be in the country when- when the queen passed away.

You know, inevitably there was always going to be a subtext to this story, as there was with the death of the Duke of Edinburgh you know? And the subtext was, "Well what about William and Harry? What about this family rift? Can it ever be reconciled?" And of course everyone could see that if there was ever going to be a moment for a reconciliation, this had to be it. Both brothers 300 yards from each other in Windsor Home Park, um, you know, thrust together in this awful, awful situation. And, um, you know, they- they did actually what they had to do. I understand it was William who put the call out to Harry and suggested they did that walkabout together. The Palace confirmed that. The walkabout was pushed back slightly. Um, I was really surprised it d- it definitely took me by surprise. I'd had the heads up from the palace that William and Kate were going to be doing a walkabout, but no one told us anything about the Sussex's joining, so it was obviously a very last minute thing.

But I think the crowds loved it, they were really pleased to see Harry and Meghan, and really pleased to see the four of them together. And of course, you know, the media throwing that "fab four" tag at them all over again, it's- it's unrealistic, you know? There's way too much water under the bridge for- for it to ever be the "fab four" again, but I think there is every hope that there's going to be something of a reconciliation.

Erin Vanderhoof: And it wasn't even until this week when I read an excerpt from your book, The New Royals, and realized even between Charles and Harry there was still some discomfort even as recently as April, back when Harry was in town for The Invictus Games. So what did you find out about that?

Katie Nicholl: Yeah, that's right. I- I was told that his father had requested a meeting with Harry, and they'd arranged to have a meeting with the queen and Charles actually insisted on meeting with them both before they saw the queen. And I was told by a source very close to- to Charles it was because he just wanted to put the boundaries out very clearly about Harry and Meghan before they went in to the queen and possibly asked any favors or, you know, tired to sweet talk her in any way, um, I suppose in the way that Andrew had in a way that, you know, ultimately had been quite damaging to the monarchy. And I think Charles was very aware of that. He wanted to make sure he knew exactly what they were going to go and speak with the queen about.

And there was a a discussion that I was told about between Meghan and Harry, Charles and Camilla, in which obviously the issues were raised. And Harry suggested that a mediator might be quite good to help things move on, at which point I'm told Camilla sort of spluttered out her tea and said "A mediator? Don't be so ridiculous. We... We, the family. We will sort this out." And, uh, just struck me how it was probably going to be a while before things were healed. But I do know that it is absolutely Charles' hope and his intention that he's going to be able to sort things out with his son, and I think it's really important for his reign as well that- that he does. We want a royal... United royal family.

Erin Vanderhoof: So, I know in the book you also really kind of get to the bottom of William's feelings about Harry. And, so what is it that you kind of found out new about that, and how is that kind of going to change as it goes forward?

Katie Nicholl: One of the things that was really interesting, which I- I h- didn't know anything about. We'd all heard of the, um, Sandringham Summit, of course, where the queen got everyone together at her Norfolk estate to- to talk about how they were going to work out this sort of break away from the royal family for Harry and Meghan. But what I didn't know was that apparently there was another summit held by William at Anmer to actually talk about the impact that Megxit, as- as it has become known, would have on him and his family. Because we know how much Harry standing down has impacted on William and Kate, not only their workload, but their... Their position in the media spotlight. They are... They and their children are even more high profile. They're doing even more, because of course they're- they're picking up.

Of course I wanted to get to the bottom of the state of the brothers relationship and, you know, whether there was actually any hope of a reconciliation, and I was told by one source very close to William that he still can't fully forgive Harry for what he's done.

Michelle Ruiz: I think it's so interesting what you're saying, Katie, about Prince William considering how Harry and Meghan's departure would affect him and his family, and I think.. I'm sure he maybe means practically, but I think the PR and the optics of it as well. It kind of sort of scratches at how, yes, all of these people are in the same family and are kind of working for the same firm, but they are also individual courts who are almost in, like, a PR contest or a popularity contest in a way. And I think in a way Kate and William [inaudible 00:15:18] those young royals, the new royals, to borrow your book title. But when the Sussex's came a long they had this whirlwind love story between a prince and an American actress and that's hard to beat, especially for the American public, and as a couple they're so much more demonstrative and kind of boundary pushing and a bit more, like, celebrities than, like, royals for some. And I think to an extent, for some people anyway, they won the popularity contest overseas.

Katie Nicholl: It's really interesting, isn't it? That sort of cultural divide that opened up I think after the Oprah interview. That was when there was a real polarization, and I think you're absolutely right, Michelle, there was... There was more support for the Sussex's in America. Far less over here where, you know, British people generally felt that, you know, Harry had really betrayed the royal family, he'd chucked them under a bus. There was a lot that was inconsistent, shall we say, um, in the Oprah interview that the press, you know, took great delight in dissecting. And, you know, they- they were given these plum roles in the commonwealth, brilliant idea by the queen, and, you know, had they stuck it out and had this actually worked it could have been so successful in what Charles now has to do, which is keep the commonwealth together.

Erin Vanderhoof: And I think Andrew was, like, a very interesting part of this whole funeral weekend, you know?

Katie Nicholl: It wasn't just the issue of uniforms, there was a whole issue of how much of a role Andrew was going to play. Now of course, yes this was a state funeral, but it was also a family funeral, and we know that the queen was incredibly close to Andrew right up until, you know, her very last days. One of the things that I put in the book is how protective the queen always was of Andrew. I mean, she asked him about Epstein, she wanted to know the truth, he looked her in the eye and he assured her that he was innocent, and that was enough for the queen. As a mother she believed him and she supported him. And so it was absolutely essential to the queen, and- and on her full instruction that Andrew should be a part of not just the funeral day itself, but, you know, all of the events leading up to it. He walked in the procession with all of the other siblings, and when it came to the Vigil of The Princes, as it was known, he was allowed to wear his military uniform.

For Harry and Andrew, they weren't actually entitled to wear those uniforms full stop, but the king stepped in and made a concession for both of them. Initially we understood it was just going to be Andrew. That prompted Harry to release a statement saying his military service wasn't defined by the- the uniform he wore, but thankfully someone at the palace saw sense and saw that they would have faced accusations of great hypocrisy had Harry not also been allowed to wear his uniform. And so it was decided that they both would for that single occasion only.

Michelle Ruiz: I think the kind of equivalency that was drawn, in a way, between Harry and Andrew, both as being sort of outside the, you know, inner sanctum of the family was pretty troublesome for me, because I think the reasons for the rift for each of those men are so different and the mere sight of Andrew for me was a stain on the funeral proceedings. I completely get that he's the queens son and he was going to be present, um, I think he was her favorite son, right? That's [laughs] reportedly her favorite son, but he has become synonymous with circle of people who were abusive.

Katie Nicholl: I think you're absolutely right, he was actually heckled when they were in the procession in Edinburgh and someone was arrested for shouting out at Andrew. And when it comes to streamlining the royal family, I- I mean I'm told, again, by very reliable sources that both Charles and William absolutely concur that Andrew cannot come back in any shape or form to take a public role as a royal. It's simply not going to happen. We're going to see a streamlining of the monarchy, and Andrew absolutely edited out.

Michelle Ruiz: It may also be worth noting [inaudible 00:19:23] and people were disturbed about this on Twitter that Prince Andrew is now, I believe, in receipt of the queens beloved corgis, and that was...

Erin Vanderhoof: [laughs]

Michelle Ruiz: Rather upsetting.

Katie Nicholl: Well, given the fact that those corgis sort of had everyone in tears as they were waiting for their mistress to come home one last time, yes. I- I think some feel that, um, perhaps Andrew doesn't deserve the queens most beloved treasure, and I'm not talking about the crown jewels, I'm talking about the corgis.

Erin Vanderhoof: We'll have more in just a moment.

We really love the family stuff, but the problems with this family are far from Charles' only, or even most, concerning.

Katie Nicholl: It has certainly been an unsettled time in the political landscape, and, um, one of the greatest challenges for Charles is going to be keeping the United Kingdom just that, united. I spoke to one of his very close friends for my book, who told me that the thing that gives Charles sleepless nights is the potential breaking up of the United Kingdom/ and there was a referendum, as we know, and Scotland remains today part of the United Kingdom, but that doesn't mean there won't be another referendum and i- it is a source of great concern for Charles.

There is perhaps an argument to say that because the queen died in Scotland an Operation Unicorn was triggered. That was the operation went into play if she died in Scotland, and as I revealed in the book it was her wish to die at Balmoral. The fact that she did has forged an even deeper connection between, I think, the crown and Scotland. When you look at that journey that the hearse made from Balmoral to Edinburgh, the people that lined the streets and came out into those towns was astonishing. And the number of tens of thousands of people went to see the queen lying in state, And there are some who believe that that turn out, that connection, between the Scottish people and the queen because she was Queen of Scots, let's not forget that, actually is enough to stem that tide of nationalism and keep Scotland, um, together with the United Kingdom for some years to come. And- and- and of course that is absolutely Charles' hope, but it- it worries him greatly.

It was significant, wasn't it, that the first place that he went was on that sort of mini tour of the United Kingdom once he was King was Scotland?

Michelle Ruiz: I do think this inflection point for others though, who were not maybe on the queue, raises questions about just what place in modern society does the monarchy have. And in reporting I've done for _Vanity Fair_ in the past I remember people telling me, like, "I'm not a royalist, but even if you're not a royalist you have a basic level of respect for the queen." But in her vacancy I think those questions kind of speak a little bit louder.

Younger Brits may be less loving and supporting of the monarchy, and I'm- I'm just thinking about that viral clip of a CNN reporter stopping a young woman on the street after the queen died and asking her how she felt and expecting this kind of outpouring, and she sort of shrugged and said she really wasn't a fan. And that made me think about what King Charles, and Prince William, and this new guard are really up against.

Katie Nicholl: Clearly Charles is going to have obstacles that will be challenges. There's going to be inevitably big debates about the future of the monarchy. Is there a future for the monarchy? Are they relevant? Do we want a constitutional monarchy? And I think one of the things that we've seen in this extraordinary period since the queen's death is actually how much the monarchy does mean to this country.

I stood for hours and hours and hours outside Buckingham Palace, spoke to a lot of people, and, you know, I spoke to people that weren't monarchists who said to me, "Well, we've come to pay our respects. Not because we're monarchists, but because she gave her life to duty." There is something to be said for that. I think at a time when a lot of people have very little faith in politicians generally, you know, a politically neutral monarchy, um, is something that may actually be quite attractive to people.

But, and it does come with several "buts", the monarchy has to now justify its existence. It absolutely has to tap in to the younger generation, the next generation, and to prove itself. And- and I think Charles is going to work incredibly hard to do that. To not be a drain on the public purse, you know, he's going to be carving up and redistributing royal estates and palaces and making far more of it accessible to the people.

Um, but above all of that I think he is going to continue his mother's legacy in that commitment to duty, he said that in his first speech to the nation, and really earning the trust of the nation and- and proving that that there is a purpose. That we are actually better off with them than without them. But it's not necessarily going to be easy.

Michelle Ruiz: The other thing that King Charles has to contend with that you've mentioned here is the commonwealth and countries that had been calling to remove the queen as Head of State. Obviously the commonwealth is a voluntary association of nations, but no matter how voluntary it is, there is this kind of skewed power dynamic and a history of- at play where many of those countries were once colonies and the queen was, and the king is now, the head of that commonwealth. And there can still be that lingering sense of a British empire built upon slavery that has not been too thoroughly reckoned with by the royal family, and the classic MO about this is to say little to nothing.

The queen never did acknowledge it, but I think there's already been a meaningful kind of tonal shift or vibe shift from Charles that was happening even before he became king. At a commonwealth meeting in June he at least mentioned slavery, and he talked about the depths of his sorrow and he talked about deepening his own understanding. Talked about finding new ways to acknowledge our past, and he said that those conversation start with listening.

Erin Vanderhoof: What is really going to be the determinant of whether or not he's successful in his job is things like the scene from the State Opening of Parliament where he's sitting in a gilded chair talking about the cost of living crisis. And its like, if his reign is going to constantly be a cost of living crisis in the golden chair, that's when he really faces an issue.

But I know, Katie, that you have a lot of information. More than probably anybody else in the world, except for maybe Charles himself, about, uh, the coronation and how he's planning for the next five years. Uh, it has a great name: Operation Golden Orbs. Say what you will about the- about the Windsors, they know how to name an operation.

Katie Nicholl: They really do. They really do. And of course everyone now knows what the golden orb is, because they've seen it. They've seen it on the coffin, they saw it removed from the coffin when the queen was lowered into that vault, that sort of spine tingling image. And of course the next person to hold that orb will be Charles at his coronation.

Now, I'm told that the plans are already in place for a coronation. We don't have a date, it's likely to be spring or summer. I mean, I think June is probably a- a good bet. We're not going to see a coronation on the same scale as what we saw in 1953. We're absolutely going to see it on television, because this is the king who actually allowed the cameras in for the Excession, something that has never been done before. And I talked earlier about connectability, relatability, relevance. If we're going to have a monarchy we need to understand it's role and what it does, and Charles understand that. That's why he let the cameras in, and he'll do the same with his coronation, as his mother did. That was groundbreaking that the queen allowed, and it took a lot of persuasion, she allowed the cameras in for her coronation not for the moment of anointing. Charles will. It'll be scaled back, it'll cost far less. This is very much Charles presenting himself as the modern monarch. He's absolutely determined that the monarchy shouldn't be a drain on the taxpayers.

As for his five year plan, well, Michelle's really eloquently outlined the issues that face the commonwealth. More likely than not, Jamaica will become a republic. I don't think Charles is going to even attempt to stop those things from happening. It is a voluntary organization, he's not going to want to force anything on anyone. I think he's going to want to do a lot of listening, I think he's going to spend a lot of time now s- traveling around the commonwealth. Michelle also made the point that the queen had never addressed the issue of slavery and that Charles had. He said that it was a stain on our nations history. He's not going to shy away from these issues.

Um, I think people might be quite surprised by some of the things to come in Charles III's reign, but one suspects that he's probably going to have to start closer to home in the first instance. These family rifts need to be healed, and so once these seven days of royal mourning are over I think the king is going to get to work pretty quickly.

Michelle Ruiz: I think he seems broadly to be of another era, right? And I think there are even people, at least in the states, who are kind of like, "Oh I wish William were just king now." Because he kind of has the youth and the energy on his side. But I think what Charles does have going for him is the momentum and the investment in the monarchy and this huge groundswell of support that Katie mentioned.

And I think in a way we... A lot of people saw the queen as a motherly figure, and perhaps it would serve Charles to show us a little bit of what he's like as a grandpa or a dad as the monarch.

Katie Nicholl: Charles knows he has that potential, he's going to use that profile to put the spotlight on the issues that matter to him. Climate change, the environment. He's not going to have a personality transplant just because he's king, I think he's going to stay very true to the causes that he has campaigned for and pushed into the spotlight for all of these years.

Erin Vanderhoof: One thing that I always joke about when we talk about the podcast is that in a certain way you can also kind of see it as a ten episode arc of me coming to see what is both admirable, and grandfatherly, and personally interesting about Prince Charles. He's been convening people for decades.

Michelle Ruiz: For so long he was second fiddle to either his mother or to Princess Diana, and now it's finally his moment to step into the spotlight and I wonder if he will sort of get his public redemption story the way that almost his love story with Camilla has. Where for so long it was vilified and perhaps misunderstood, and I think over time people have come to see it as, like, these people have been in love with each other for 50 years. And I think that's another huge asset to Charles. Their love story is pretty cool.

Katie Nicholl: You know, we know that the queen wanted Camilla to be Queen Consort. I suspect it won't be too long before we drop the "consort" and she's Queen Camilla. The sources I spoke to for my book told me that that is absolutely Charles' wish, and I think most people would agree that she really has earned her place at the table. Her metamorphosis from reviled mistress to Queen Consort Camilla is extraordinary, and she has worked incredibly hard to turn things around.

I was told by someone I spoke to for The New Royals that she and Charles are absolutely in tandem with wanting to use their spotlight to really shine it on the vulnerable sectors of society and to make life better for them, and that comes from a very genuine and authentic place. And I think if that's what they do I think they will be incredibly loved and incredibly successful. And they say behind every great man is a great woman, and I think never was that truer than in the case of King Charles III and Queen Consort Camilla.

The queen described Prince Philip as her strength and stay. I'm sure Charles would use very similar words for Camilla.

Erin Vanderhoof: This has been special coverage from _Vanity Fair's_ _Dynasty_. I'm Erin Vanderhoof.

Katie Nicholl: And I'm Katie Nicholl.

Erin Vanderhoof: I hope everybody does what I'm about to go do, and pick up Katie's new book, The New Royals. It's available by e-book on Amazon or wherever you buy e-books.

Katie Nicholl: Michelle Ruiz, thank you so much for joining us today.

Michelle Ruiz: I love talking to you.

Katie Nicholl: Before we go I must tell you, Erin, that while I was standing in the queue I spoke to several people who took out their AirPods and said to me "Katie, we're listening to you and Erin on Dynstay. You kept us going for a good 10 hours!"

So if you'd like to learn more about the royal family, please check out the many episodes of _Dynasty_ in our feed, or visit vf.com/dynstay. We've got episodes about the royal families long relationship with the press, the sagas of Harry and Meghan, and so much more. We really hope that you'll enjoy listening to them.

Erin Vanderhoof: _Dynasty_ is produced by _Vanity Fair_ in partnership with Condé Nast Entertainment. This episode was engineered by Jenn Nelson, and the theme song was composed by Woolly Music. Fact checking was done by Dale Brauner.

_Dynasty_ was conceived by _Vanity Fair_ executive editor, Claire Howorth. Claire and Katey Rich are staff editorial consultants.

You can follow _Vanity Fair_ on Instgram and Twitter, @vanityfair.

Thanks so much for listening.