Katey Rich: Hello, and welcome to _Little Gold Men_ the award season podcast from _Vanity Fair_. Intro: "It's such an honor to present this next award." "And here are the nominees." "And the Oscar goes to..." "And the Oscar goes to..." "And I can't deny the fact that you like me. Right now, you like me." "I'm the king of the world!" "There's a mistake, _Moonlight_, you guys won best picture." Katie Rich: I am Katey Rich. I'm here with Richard Lawson. Richard Lawson: Hello. Katie Rich: With David Canfield. David Canfield: Hi. Katie Rich: And Rebecca Ford. Rebecca Ford: Hi. Katie Rich: And we have a lot to talk about. We are post-TIFF, pre-New York Film Festival. Awards news is kind of coming and going, uh, including from the Academy itself. They had a big event over the weekend. Um, there's box office to talk about. There's just a hodgepodge. So we'll get into all of it. So we're going to start with what has been breaking news this week as we're recording our show, which is that the Golden Globes are coming back. This is something you would know if you listened to us before. Um, it was kind of... The writing was kind of on the wall earlier, um, that the publicists who were really pushing for reforms, um, were somewhat getting their way and that NBC was ready to resign the contract, which they have done, but only for a year. Um, Rebecca, you have done the reporting on the Globes for us. This is what, the result that we expected, right? Rebecca Ford: Yeah, yeah. This is no surprise. I think we were all just waiting for it to be announced and to get the official date, um, which is January 10th, two days before Oscar voting begins. So it's official. It's back. Katie Rich: [laughs]. What do you make of the one-year renewal, though? Like, is this a, is... Are the Globes still on probation? Rebecca Ford: It does feel a little bit like they're on probation. I mean, in general, obviously, we all know that award show ratings have been in a steep, steep decline for years now. So it does make sense that NBC may not want to keep this going, especially with the troubled past of the Globes. So, um, it does sound like they'll have to shop it around after this year. But I think that just puts more eyeballs on how this goes this year. Katie Rich: Yeah. Richard, do you think it's worth it? Richard Lawson: Well, I don't know. I'm just wondering, like, if, for some reason, somehow, uh, it was a huge hit this year, let's say, would NBC then be interested, or th, are they kind of saying like, "Contractually, we have to give this one more year, but then we're, we're kind of done?" Katie Rich: I think it just puts them in power position for negotiating again the, the next year, right? And it's interesting, they're going to stream it this year on Peacock, which has not been done before. So I don't know how that's going to affect, um, how they view it as a success or not. Um- Rebecca Ford: That's what they did with the Emmys as well, I think. Katie Rich: And I don't know. You know, it's funny, when we talked about Emmys ratings, I don't know that Peacock got included in that, even though realistically that's how a lot of people are watching it. So I'm not sure they figured that out yet. Richard Lawson: Well, a lot might be generous [laughs]. Katie Rich: [laughs]. Rebecca Ford: [laughs]. Richard Lawson: I don't know. Katie Rich: However many people are subscribing to Peacock, 10% of that [laughs] [inaudible 00:03:01] Richard Lawson: But the other big part of this equation, Rebecca, right, is, like, is talent going to come? Rebecca Ford: Yeah. That's the question. Richard Lawson: Which is the whole point of watching the Golden Globes, is to watch tipsy celebrities at tables interacting with each other. Um, so, i, without that, if that's not... I mean, I guess they will probably, right, if they're nominated? Like, we took the time off. We've let the organization at least nominally reform itself. And so now, everything is kosher again? Rebecca Ford: I think it's, um, it's a house divided, I guess I would [laughs] say, because there are definitely many, many people, especially the studios who are ready to just, like, get back on this and, and f, will fully commit to bringing their talent. You know, this is a huge marketing stepping stone for any Oscar film or talent. So the studios are, are very ready, I think. It's the personal publicists. Uh, there's, there's a handful of them that don't feel like the HFPA did enough change. And what w, we should be watching closely is if their talent shows up. There's only been a couple public statements. You know, Tom Cruise gave his Globes back. And obviously, he is someone that could very well be nominated this year. Katie Rich: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Ford: So he'll be one to watch. We don't know if he's going to show or not. But a lot of this, I think, is just going to be conversations that have, that are had over the next couple months between these publicists and their talent. Katie Rich: I think Brendan Fraser is the als-, also the person you want to watch. I'm not sure he's said anything in this whole reform period, but he was the one who came public a few years ago, was saying that he had been, you know, assaulted by an HFPA member. And I think for him to come back would probably be really challenging for him. And I, I'm curious what kind of decision he'll make there. It's also worth noting that there's a Globes events leading up to the Globes themselves. Like, there are, you know, HFPA specific press conferences and events. So I think, and Rebecca, tell me if ya, you can even actually witness this, we'll have a sense of who's participating before the Globes actually happen. Rebecca Ford: Yeah. Their parties before the Globes have always been so star studded that I think we'll get a pretty quick indication if it's going to be the same this year or it's going to feel very different. Katie Rich: To look at the horse race aspect of it, too, I mean, I think for those of us who, like, want to know what's going on with the season, the Globes always play a very unique role with their comedy categories specifically. And I was thinking about Bros- Rebecca Ford: Mm-hmm. Katie Rich: ... which played so well at TIFF for this opening in a few weeks as maybe getting a big boost from this. Glass Onion could really, like, run the table in that comedy category. Are there any other films that, whether or not they want to admit it, might be really grateful that the Globes are coming back? Rebecca Ford: I do think Top Gun. Like, that's sort of this film that we're all kind of watching to see what it does this year, uh, you know, depending on the Tom Cruise part of it all. But it's really those, like, bigger sort of commercial movies. Um, we don't have a lot of musicals this year. Usually, musicals get a huge boost from the Globes. Katie Rich: Last year was the year. [laughs]. Rebecca Ford: [laughs]. It was. Richard Lawson: I mean, don't you think that everything everywhere could be classified as a comedy, and that would be a good road test for its awards viability? Katie Rich: Yeah. Rebecca Ford: Yeah, that's interesting. Richard Lawson: You know, and not just its viability, which it already has, but, like, we probably will like seeing that cast or some c, combination of them, like, on stage or at an awards show, you know, kind of having a good time. Like, I think, I think that movie for me is, like, the kind of semi-dormant at the moment, but potential sort of sleeper stealth thing that kind of, that does a lot more than, than, you know, it seems it will now. Um, and I think the Globes would be, and the SAGs certainly, would be, like, a good first foray for them, setting the, the tone for Oscars. Katie Rich: Yeah. Imagine, um, Michelle Yeoh winning actress in a comedy and Cate Blanchett winning actress in a drama and that showdown going down to the Oscars. It, it'd be fun. Rebecca Ford: Yeah. The, the Globes, you know, one of the criticisms they got was their lack of inclusion in nominees. And so obviously, they've doubled their voter body and, and made it much more, uh, diverse than it used to be. So, you know, I think people will be closely watching how certain films are received as well. Katie Rich: Well, we'll go from the Globes, um, to the Oscars, to the Academy, to the other [laughs] major awards voting body, um, because the Academy was pretty busy over this past weekend with some events. Um, but they had an event on Saturday, um, and they also had news on Saturday, both of which you were keeping an eye on for us, Rebecca. So, um, maybe I'll with the event itself, the Sacheen Littlefeather evening that they did on Saturday night, um, which seemed like pretty straightforward, but also long overdue. What was the vibe you got from watching that happen on Saturday, Rebecca? Rebecca Ford: It felt like a really special event. You know, there was a, a very large, prominent Native American group, a lot, a lot of representation from that group, which in, obviously has been completely ignored for decades in Hollywood. So it really felt different. And the way they honored Sacheen felt really, really special. You know, she got standing ovations, and she came in, as she left, as she came back in. And just the way she was treated is such a 180 from what happened in the Oscars, at the Oscars in 1973. So to see that amount of change, um, felt really special. And she was so funny and charming. And, and the event could have felt so self-serious and, and I think she brought a lot of lightness to it as well. Katie Rich: Yeah. I guess we should have said, uh, for anyone who doesn't recognize her name, she a, declined Marlon Brando's on h, Oscar on his behalf at the 1973 Oscars for The Godfather. And his ... You know, but a punchline in some ways for or was for a long time and kind of symbolized, like, Hollywood weirdness. Like, I, I don't even know how best to describe the way she was d, depicted in pop culture. And it seems like the Academy kind of ignored it for a long time and now finally decided, "Look, we need to, to right a wrong here." Rebecca Ford: Yeah. I am still curious about the timing. I don't know if it's just the new leadership or, or what this the moment to do it. I'm, I'm so glad they did. But I, I would have loved to sort of hear how this came about. But it sounds like they'd been discussing it for, for quite a while. Katie Rich: Yeah. I mean, you're right that it feels like evidence of a new, uh, leadership, and that was sort of the theme of the press release that came out also on Saturday, not about the Academy itself, but about the Oscars, where they confirmed who the producers will be, which is something you had talked to Bill Kramer about, the Academy's CEO, earlier this summer, where he was saying that hiring the producers early was one of the moves they were going to make to, um, improve the Oscars [laughs] experience. Um, what do we think about the choices they made? Rebecca Ford: Um, yeah. So they hired Glenn Weiss, who is a long-time director of the Oscars, and, uh, Ricky Kirshner, who is also a veteran of doing sort of these big live TV events. He's done the Democratic National Conventions for years, Superbowl half-time shows, Tonys. So they really went with experience of handling a live show, which has not been what has happened before. Katie Rich: Or at least not in the last, like, decade or so. Rebecca Ford: Yeah. Not in the last few years. You know, there's been ... They like the sort of big, uh, Hollywood names who are often movie producers to come on in and, and give this a shot. And, and I think there's a sort of general feeling that that hasn't worked well, because producing a live show is very different than producing, um, you know, anything else. So I think it's a good decision and, and hopefully will result in a good show. Katie Rich: Um, David a, or Richard, did you guys feel any relief in seeing that they're at least planning this part of the Oscars telecast this far in advance? Richard Lawson: I think that's a good sign. You know, I would hope that Kirshner w, who was, you know, done those, all those DNC, um, would, would be mindful to not drop balloons from the sky and expect people to hit them, you know? Katie Rich: Mm. Richard Lawson: Because remember with H, Hillary, that didn't work out so well. Katie Rich: Mm-hmm. Richard Lawson: So, you know, just don't, don't- Katie Rich: Mm-hmm. Richard Lawson: ... apply all of the lessons learned from the DNC. Um- Katie Rich: Well, the Oscars are rounded on top, unlike an Emmy, so they won't pop the way that... So the, there's, there's potential. David Canfield: [laughs]. Richard Lawson: And movie stars are more athletic in general. So, um- Katie Rich: [laughs]. Rebecca Ford: All those theater kids are athletic? What are we talking about here? Katie Rich: [laughs]. Richard Lawson: Some of them are dancers, Rebecca, okay? Katie Rich: [laughs]. Rebecca Ford: [laughs]. Richard Lawson: Uh- David Canfield: Jeremy Pope will be fine. Richard Lawson: Yeah. David Canfield: [laughs]. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Uh, no. I think it's good. I mean, that has always been the sort of vexing, baffling thing for all of us, I think, but maybe me who is not, not always immediately aware of, like, when this stuff starts getting planned. But it always feels like it's kind of this r, rush. You know, months from now, it starts, you know? And, and the hope of a sort of more considered, more planned show, including hopefully bringing in a host sooner th, rather than later, I think would bode well. And I think there's nothing wrong with going back to, you know, these kind of old stalwart producers who, um, might not be the most exciting, but, like, I think that the, the show just needs to figure out what it's baseline is post-pandemic, and then we can start adding to it. I mean, it, you know, even this year's Emmys broadcast was, I think, another example, from what I saw, I didn't the whole show, um, of, like, I, I get what you were going for, but it didn't quite work. And I think the same is true of last year's Academy or this pa, you know, earlier this year's Academy Awards ceremony, um, including, as I've said multiple times, if there were more stairs, the slap wouldn't have happened. [laughs]. Katie Rich: [laughs]. Richard Lawson: [laughs]. Rebecca Ford: More stairs is our main note. Katie Rich: [laughs]. David Canfield: Yeah. I mean, who knows what will happen between now and the actual show, but it, it feels to me like the priorities they're laying out are the right ones, and signal the right way of thinking about how the Oscars need to change. I mean, it felt like for the last few years, around this time, you know, you'd start hearing murmurs about the telecast and what producers and the Academy wanted to do. And you'd just hear a ton about things that would lead to a fan [laughs] favorite Oscar or things that would lead to cutting categories of, you know, trying to open up the tent as much as possible at the expense of putting on the kind of show that people who love the Oscars and what the Oscars should be, um, are all about. And, you know, instead, they're talking about now how best to integrate every single category into the show and how to bring back, I think, some of the, the sheen that was lost, that's been lost over the years and just in terms of this clunky attempt to bring in people who don't actually care about the Oscars and who aren't going to watch the Oscars anyway. Rebecca Ford: Yeah. They did a... During this meeting, they revealed the results of a survey they'd done with the Academy members. And, uh, only two percent liked the fan favorite and only- David Canfield: [laughs]. Rebecca Ford: ... 20% liked the show overall, um, which is very low. And so, you know, I guess the, the 92nd Oscars had a 61% approval rating from the Academy. So I think they're, they're very aware that s, a lot of things have to be fixed, um, especially the way that certain categories were presented before the show. I mean, they made it very clear that's something they're trying to figure out. They didn't say it's necessarily going back to the way it was, but that it's not going to be what happened this past year. Katie Rich: Yeah. I mean, I, I wonder how that, that 20% figure would be if the slap hadn't happened. Rebecca Ford: Yep. Katie Rich: You know, it's not, that's not something that was the Academy's fault entirely. But I think that the transparency is encouraging, right? Like, I f, I feel like for years, the Oscars had been like, "Well, if we say that we are the best and the most important, then everyone will believe it." And now, there seems to be some acknowledgement that they have to recognize feedback and, and say when things went wrong, which I think this year un, undeniably went wrong. David Canfield: Yeah. Rebecca Ford: Yeah. This new leadership seems to be making it a priority to communicate both to the members, but also to the wider community, um, in a way I haven't seen in a while. So I'm, I'm definitely feeling positive about that change at least. Katie Rich: Well, let's come back into the present, I guess, a little bit more, uh, more so than the Oscars in the future, um, which is that also over the weekend [laughs]... It was a really busy weekend and not during a film festival. I think we're all ready for a [laughs] quieter weekend in the near future. Um, but it, on Sunday, in New York, there was the world premiere of David O. Russell's Amsterdam, um, which is one of the very few major fall movies that hadn't premiered at a festival already. It's not actually opening til October 7th. So this was a little bit more of an early, um, preview. Um, Jordan Hoffman went to the premiere and wrote a little bit about kind of the energy. A lot of the stars were there. Taylor Swift wasn't. Um, but a lot of the other ones were there- David Canfield: [laughs]. Katie Rich: ... include Margot Robbie, who also Babylon out later this year. Um, the response has been fine. I think I understand why maybe at a film festival like TIFF, where there's so much competition, it really would've gotten drowned out. And I see the reason for holding it. But it, it does seem like it's kind of this, like, non-factor in the awards race already, despite this incredible Oscar pedigree going into it. Um, Rebecca, you actually saw it. Do you want to talk a little bit more about why it feels like such an odd duck this year? Rebecca Ford: There's so many aspects of this that feel weird. You know, it's being released by Disney, but it's not a very Disney film. It's obviously a 20th, um, sort of leftover film. And it's so star studded. Like, watching it, ev, every few minutes, some other giant star appears on. You're just like, "Oh, you're in this movie too?" And- Katie Rich: [laughs]. Rebecca Ford: And it feels like that's, like, perfectly set up. Um, obviously, it's led by Christian Bale, who is really, really amazing in this, as he is in everything, um, and obviously gets nominated O, for Oscars all the time. So it feels like it has that recipe that it could have been put on the normal path to Oscar. But I think there may be some aspect of sort of not knowing what to do with this movie. And that has put it on this sort of really strange path. So I'm not sure how much we're going to be talking about it for the rest of awards season. I mean, reviews come out, I think, next week. Is that right, Richard? So we'll know more- Richard Lawson: Uh, I think week after next. Yeah. Rebecca Ford: Or the week after that. So we'll know more after that. But I think it's definitely one of the weirdest rollouts I've seen in a while during an awards season with this kind of cast. Richard Lawson: It's also weird because no one ha... I mean, I, I can't think of a, a comparable run to the one that David O. Russell had in the- Rebecca Ford: Mm-hmm. Richard Lawson: ... late, mid/late 2000s, early 2010s, like, with Silver Linings, with The Fighter, with, um... David Canfield: American Hustle. Richard Lawson: American Hustle. Thank you. Sorry. I [laughs] sometimes forget that movie exists. Um- Rebecca Ford: [laughs]. Katie Rich: New York Film Critic Circle winner American Hustle, Richard? Richard Lawson: I wasn't in it then. That's all I'll say. Katie Rich: [laughs]. Richard Lawson: Um- David Canfield: [laughs]. Richard Lawson: But, um, y, you know, he had been an interesting filmmaker. You know, he had ... what was that movie, uh, with Jeremy, uh, something, uh, Slapping the Monkey or whatever, and then Three Kings. And, you know, he'd been around. And then all of a sudden, he kind of reemerged post Huckabees with this, like, whole new mission statement almost to, like, make these quirky but populist Oscar-y things, whether they're a sort of more heavy drama like The Fighter, more comedy, um, like Silver Linings or sort of, sort of in between with American Hustle, which was kind of also a thriller. And, like, it, it worked for three-ish films, but kind of almost, it felt like, back to back to back. Um- Katie Rich: Mm-hmm. Richard Lawson: And that was wild and kind of felt like, all right, well, David O. Russell is just one of the Oscar characters who is here to stay. And then it kind of dropped off significantly. So this had, I think, at one point, Amsterdam had been poised as, like, picking that narrative back up. Um, and I can understand why all of these stars would be attracted to it, why the, uh, big studio would be interested in it. Um, but it seems like maybe, as Joy presaged, like, maybe, maybe that, maybe the era of this has passed and people just aren't sure, like, where his movies fit anymore. I don't know. I haven't seen it. David Canfield: I, I think there was a... The, two things have dovetailed with this moment, one of which is his movies, I think, have gotten worse since The Fighter. Joy was not very good. I don't think American Hustle has aged [laughs] very well, even though it racked up a ton of nominations and did win a lot of critics awards. Um, and then there's the reputational question. Um, it does feel like- Katie Rich: Mm-hmm. David Canfield: ... post Me Too, he was someone who was mentioned a lot very much in the background. Um, but it, it started to really rash it up. Um, really around the announcement of this movie, he's had some projects that fell through. He had a, I think has an Amazon show with Julianne Moore and Robert DeNiro [laughs] that didn't happen. Um, but his, his niece, uh, had accused him of, I believe, sexual assault, uh, which he denied. Uh, there have been, of course, [laughs] the infamous reports of his on-set behavior. Uh- Katie Rich: I mean, literally caught on video. Like, he's one, he's- David Canfield: Literally caught on video. Katie Rich: Yeah. David Canfield: But also instances like what A, Amy Adams has described that we haven't seen, where she described him reducing her to tears. And she said she would not work with him again. Uh, and there have been a couple of reports like that. So the combination of those two things, I think, has made it [laughs] very, very different climate for him to release a big, messy, starry movie like this, which, yeah, early reactions, uh, including Rebecca's, indicate that it's not, like, great [laughs] and it's not a movie that Disney seems to believe in at all for all of those reasons. I, I do think it's fascinating, the way they are releasing this movie, because they gave it a p, nice premiere event at Alice Tully Hall. I thought it was interesting that Ben Stiller moderated the Q&A. I recently rewatched Flirting with Disaster, which I think is a great movie [laughs]. Katie Rich: Oh, I love that movie. David Canfield: Yeah. Which was one of his early movies. But, you know, you do it there, and then you release the movie smack in the middle of New York Film Festival, where Alice Tully Hall [laughs] is a major venue. But it's not a part of the festival. And, and it just feels like it's being dumped off in this very, very strange way. It would be like if The Woman King were released in the middle of TIFF with the premiere at Roy Thompson Hall, but it were not a part of TIFF. It just doesn't... It, it feels [laughs] almost deliberate, the way it's being cast aside. Um, and I think the promo's been quite lacking as well. Katie Rich: Uh, I do hear that, um, if you are intrigued by Taylor Swift's film career, that there is something to look forward to in this. So- Richard Lawson: I am. [laughs]. Rebecca Ford: I... Don't oversell that, Katey. Um- Katie Rich: [laughs] I don't... I, I don't... If you're a Taylor Swift fan, I don't know. Eh, eh- Richard Lawson: [laughs]. Rebecca Ford: [laughs]. I mean, I don't know. I, I don't know if it's going to eclipse Midnights as the thing that we're anticipating, or, for that matter, her all too well Oscar run. But, um, I, I'm intrigued, but maybe not. Uh, will it ever be on Disney+? Katie Rich: I'll just say she's in the movie. That's all I will say. Rebecca Ford: [laughs]. Richard Lawson: I've heard it's going to be, like, a meme. Katie Rich: Yes. This is what I have heard, too, that, like- Rebecca Ford: Oh. Yeah. Katie Rich: ... her moment is memorable. Rebecca Ford: Yeah. That's fair. Katie Rich: Well, uh, may, in a few more weeks, we'll catch up with it, maybe once Richard has seen it and, um, figure out wh, where [laughs] the s, the status quo stands on that. Um, well, one more... Well, actually, no. It's just more news from over the weekend. Two, um, so I'll start first with the TIFF Audience Award winners, um, which we talk about constantly in connection with the Toronto International Film Festival, because the Audience Award is such a reliable Oscar precursor at this point. It's something that you know that if you're a major studio bringing your film there that's even remotely a crowd pleaser, you are really hoping you can go home with it. Um, and I don't know if anyone's said this on mic last week, but I think, uh, David and Richard, maybe you both predicted that The Fabelmans would win, and it did. Richard Lawson: [laughs]. Katie Rich: Steven Spielberg went home with a huge prize from his first time at TIFF. Um, the runner-up was Women Talking, which maybe we can talk about a bit more. And then third place was Glass Onion, um, which somehow is the first time an Knives Out movie has won an Audience Award. It did not place, uh, in 2019, wildly enough. David, did you predict Fabelmans would win this? Does this feel exactly as intended? David Canfield: That was my expectation. Katie Rich: Yeah. David Canfield: Uh, I, I definitely wasn't sure of that. You know, there were a lot of really audience friendly movies at TIFF this year that played really well, none of which were the runner-up, actually. I was very surprised by the runner-up, which we can get into. Uh- Katie Rich: We'll talk about The Woman King in a minute, too. [laughs]. David Canfield: Yeah. I think Richard said something last week that I think is very true, which is the TIFF audience is a little bit more discerning than we can sometimes say about what they choose [laughs] of the audience winner. They don't always go with, say, a Green Book. They do like to go for movies that have a lot of artistic import, have something to say, um, but that also are accessible. And The Fabelmans was, like, I think the dream combination of all of those things- Katie Rich: Hm. David Canfield: ... especially just the personal factor of film lovers going to see this movie, knowing the s, connection Spielberg talks, talked about at the premiere, but that's also very just apparent in the movie. It's very clearly autobiographical and, and memoiristic. Um, so, yeah, it just played exactly as you would hope. I think this went exactly as Universal hoped. Uh, and it proves that the movie will find a lot of fans beyond critics and the industry, which I think is probably the big win, honestly, because it is a smaller Spielberg movie. Katie Rich: Richard, did it surprise you at all? Richard Lawson: No. I mean, I think I, I thought maybe Glass Onion would sneak in there, but I think that the second place Women Talking thing y, does indicate exactly what David said, is that the TIFF audiences both like their big populous stuff, but they also, you know, I think collectively l, like to consider films that they feel are capital I important, you know? Katie Rich: Mm-hmm. Richard Lawson: And, um, that doesn't always bear out with the People's Choice Award. But it, it kind of tends to more often than not. Um, and with that calculus, it was like, yeah, I think The Fabelmans hits enough of the, the quadrants to be the favorite there. And then Women Talking, um, I think that gets a big boost, because Polley's, Sarah Polley's Canadian. Um, and, uh, Sheila McCarthy, who's a Canadian actress, is great in the movie. And there's another Canadian actress whose name I forget. So that probably helped a lot, but also because it's a movie that, you know, has weight to it, has gravitas to it, and, um, is, I think, quite literally and also metaphorically, like, engaged in dialogue and discourse that feels very urgent to today. So I think that would definitely resonate with TIFF audiences who are seeking that kind of significance to a film, in addition to the entertainment factor, which is why, you know, Glass Onion is third. Katie Rich: David, I think you had said that Women Talking seemed to have cooled a little bit at TIFF compared to its Telluride premiere, where it was kind of like tailored made for that. Does this make you change your mind about that? David Canfield: I, I think at ... Telluride was such an ideal launching pad for that movie in so many ways, especially with having that whole cast there and having [laughs] the time of their lives, that inevitably, when you get to Toronto and you're unveiling it to a much bigger, broader, more diverse audience, there are going to be more questions about how it plays. And there were, from what I could tell, a lot of murmurs about it not playing as well that, you know, most people I talked to really loved the movie. And the premiere, I was out of town by that point, but seemed to go o, over extremely well. But, yeah. I think this really proves it is the very strong contender that Rebecca and I saw in Telluride, which is to say it's a [laughs] very talky movie. It's a very, uh, I think demanding movie at times. It really does require a certain amount of attention and emotional investment. But it is one that plays really well to a crowd, that is more accessible than you might expect, uh, and that I think ends on a very moving, rousing note that audiences connected to. I, I do th, agree with Richard that Sarah Polley being Canadian and from Toronto helped to a degree. But this is not a movie that would have ranked on the People's Choice top three if it didn't play really well- Katie Rich: Hm. David Canfield: ... overall to the Toronto audience. Um, so I think it says a lot more for its Oscar prospects that it placed here than it, that it got really great reviews at a Telluride, for example. I think this is a huge sign of the fact that it can play broadly and it, it's not going to be limited to a really, really niche passionate audience. Um, so, yeah. It's really good news for the campaign, I think. Katie Rich: Yeah. Richard Lawson: A credit to the way the film i, is not... Uh, it's about a, a, a very narrow community of people. I mean, it's really about a lot more than that. But, like, you know, it, it could be kind of alienating. But Polley does a good job of really, not in a condescending way, but just sort of a generous way, guiding the viewer into the, into the world and then letting them sit with it. You know, it's not, um, uh, ar, artful in a way that, um, obscures, you know, a, just a more casual investment in it. You know, it c, it, it's, it's... I mean, that's a weird way of saying it's, it's kind of an entertaining movie, despite the fact that it's about all these really heavy things. Katie Rich: Well, I feel like we do have a... You know, we were talking about Bond and Bardo before we started recording. Like, there do seem to be a lot of movies coming this fall where you're just like, "Huh. Okay. Like, I got to go through this." And Women Talking feels like it could be seen as an eat your vegetables movie. But this Audience Award seems like a very strong signal to people that, that it's not, which is what you guys have been telling us, too. Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm. And the other thing is, w, you know, when I was doing some mental predictions about the top three here, it was a movie I was definitely rooting for. But, you know, last week, we were talking about movies like The Woman King and Bros and Banshees of Inisherin and movies that, um- Katie Rich: And The Whale. Richard Lawson: And The Whale. Yeah. And movies that didn't get, you know, wonderful reviews, but seemed to play really well to their crowds. And, and it seemed like there just might not be space for a movie like Women Talking, because this was TIFF's big comeback year. And [laughs] TIFF came ready with a lot of very TIFF-friendly movies. Katie Rich: Yeah. Richard Lawson: I, I don't necessarily think it says a ton about those movies not ranking, so much as it does that clearly Women Talking was enough of a crowd pleaser that those more standard crowd pleaser type films did not go as far. Katie Rich: Ah. So on Sunday, I tweeted something that is a very sincerely held belief, which is that Steven Spielberg doesn't have enough Oscars, because he has, he's only won Best Picture once, which is insane to me. Richard Lawson: Correct belief. Katie Rich: Yeah. I think, I mean, I think everyone on here agrees to some extent. But I think right now the, the pressure is like, "Okay, so is Fabelmans the one?" Like, you come out of TIFF, you see the Audience Award winner. Often, people say, "Well, there's your Best Picture winner." Um, and I think when it's a Spielberg movie, there's maybe even more reason to say so. Um, but I think if you're Universal, you're, you're a little worried, right? Like, you don't want to be in this position of early September, everyone saying, "Ah, I see the future." So how do they handle that from here? Rebecca Ford: I think it's... Yeah. I mean, I think there's a lot of concern from multiple studios about being an early front runner. You know- Richard Lawson: Yeah. Rebecca Ford: ... we saw Belfast and Power of the Dog sort of had these early, uh, peaks, and then it's hard to keep up the m, momentum for that long. So I think it's pacing, right? Like, you give people a breather, and then you show back up. I mean, there's a ton more festivals coming around. So every rep we talk just tries to keep us from ma, making the front runner narrative as [laughs]- Katie Rich: [laughs]. Rebecca Ford: ... for as long as humanly possible. So, um, there's definitely that fear, I think, from everybody. Richard Lawson: I think the good strategy would just be to go completely quiet with that movie... Katie Rich: Mm-hmm. Richard Lawson: ... you know, until much closer to release, and then, um, start it back up again, because, uh, you know, my temptation is always to say, "Yes, there's a problem of maintaining momentum, but there's also a problem of averting backlash." Katie Rich: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Ford: Mm-hmm. Richard Lawson: Which is relevant to us as we talk about this stuff, um, all year. But, like, I don't think the Academy... I mean, evidence suggests they don't really pay so much attention to backlash as we might think they would. You know, obviously- Katie Rich: 'Cause they have jobs and other things to do. Richard Lawson: Well, yeah. David Canfield: [laughs]. Richard Lawson: They have jobs that aren't literally talking about the backlash [laughs]. Katie Rich: [laughs]. Richard Lawson: But, um, but, you know, I think it's more just about, like... It's about story. And you kind of get sick of the story that you started hearing in September- Katie Rich: Mm-hmm. Richard Lawson: ... by the time it's February. You know, and so I think d, a very strategic like, "Okay, we had this big splash. It's now firmly in, you know, at the top of the heap right now, The Fabelmans is. Um, let's enjoy that with a sort of classy, stoic silence for a bit and not- Katie Rich: Mm-hmm. Richard Lawson: You know, I don't, I don't n, think The Fabelmans is hitting, like, a ton of other smaller regional festivals or anything like that. Uh, maybe I'm wrong. Katie Rich: Well, I don't know if they've announced yet. I, like- Richard Lawson: Yeah. Katie Rich: I'm thinking. I don't know if Hamptons or, um, Mill Valley or Film 919 here by me- Richard Lawson: Yeah. Katie Rich: Like, I don't think they have their lineups out yet. So we'll see. Richard Lawson: We'll see. I mean, on that, you know, those are small enough that it probably wouldn't, you know... Reaction from there wouldn't get all the way into, seep into the industry. But, like, yeah, they have a good thing going. And you just want to kind of maintain this precious little delicate thing, uh, as long as you can. And then once you hit, you know, once you round into 2023, then you can go full tilt boogie for two months, you know- Katie Rich: Mm-hmm. Richard Lawson: ... 'cause then I think people are sort of just in that mode. But right now, you can either, i, i, consciously or not, sour on something not necessarily 'cause you, "Oh, I think it's bad all of a sudden," but just because I'm sick of hearing about it. Rebecca Ford: Yeah. David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Ford: Yeah. I think every season we're, we hear those same stories over and over again that, at one point, you're like, "I cannot hear about how they designed the apartment for The Father one more time." Katie Rich: [laughs]. Rebecca Ford: So I think if- David Canfield: [laughs]. Rebecca Ford: ... if we're just, like... Katie Rich: That's a funny example, 'cause that was a classic late peak movie that we- Rebecca Ford: Yeah. Katie Rich: ... weren't talking about forever. Rebecca Ford: Yeah. But, like, every interview was about that. And then Spielberg obviously has a story to, to tell about deciding to do this. But because it's him, he, they're already going to be so selective about what he does that I think they have a very good chance to do exactly what Richard is saying. Katie Rich: Yeah. Um, last time, we talked about The Woman King, which is the other news of the weekend. It led the box office, um, as widely expected, because the box office has been so grim for a while. Um, but it did really well. It did, uh, you know, it outpaced expectations. It got a A+ cinema score, I think, which I would have, I guess, expected based on what you guys said about how it was received at TIFF. So now, for us dorks, the question is, like, how, how does this affect it as an Oscar contender? I think it w, it played well, but wasn't, like, regarded as some earth shattering work of art when it premiered at TIFF. But now that it's a hit, does that put some more wind in its sails? David Canfield: Definitely. There's a really good case to be made to start for Viola Davis... Katie Rich: Mm-hmm. David Canfield: ... um, who feels more and more like a, like an actor who will fit into that best actress five and deserves to. It's a completely different kind of performance for her. She's so good in the movie and she really anchors it. And, and then beyond that, you know, there, there is a lot you can do for the campaign with her at the, at the top of it, because both Thuso Mbedu and, um, Lashana Lynch are great, um, and supporting. Gina is a director who has never really had her Academy moment, but certainly, um, has a lot of respect and just pulled off something pretty remarkable, I think, with this movie, just in terms of how well it's done and how well she was able to turn out the kind of action epic that Hollywood has never made before. And then, yeah, in terms of Best Picture, I, it's going to be tough still, I think. It's, it's not a typical nominee. And as we get deeper into the season, it's, it's going to have to really hold on as, you know, a lot of big movies come through and, and take up a lot of that space. But I think it definitely h- Katie Rich: And big in terms of, like, scale, which I think is the challenge, right? David Canfield: Yes. yes, exactly. Like Avatar- Katie Rich: Mm-hmm. David Canfield: ... which is, you know, starting... I thought it was interesting that that press rollout started a little earlier maybe than I would have expected. Katie Rich: Well, they're doing the re-release this weekend, um, of the original Avatar. David Canfield: James Cameron is ta-, is doing some interviews already. Um- Katie Rich: He's got some hot takes [laughs]. Rebecca Ford: [laughs]. David Canfield: And he, he's- Katie Rich: He's good at it. David Canfield: ... got takes. Katie Rich: [laughs]. David Canfield: Introducing himself as the kinder, new James Cameron, which I- Katie Rich: [laughs]. David Canfield: I can't wait, I can't wait to meet this new James Cameron. Katie Rich: [laughs]. David Canfield: Um, but, yeah, you've got that. You've got Wakanda Forever, um, which we both- Katie Rich: And Top Gun still. David Canfield: Yeah. And Top Gun. All of which, I think, we expect more firmly to figure into this conversation. Woman King is the kind of scrappy surprise of that group maybe and it's one you really root for. But Best Picture 10 is quite competitive this year. So to me, it's right on that bubble. And if it can keep up this momentum and find some early love with, you know, various awards bodies and critics groups, um, I think it does have a shot to get into that 10. Katey, it was a, the fortune teller, uh, sh, she told you that one day Maria Bello would be nominated, eh, for producing- Katie Rich: [laughs]. David Canfield: ... one of the best pictures of the year, right? Katie Rich: Uh, best, best picture nominee Maria Bello. I had- David Canfield: And you- Katie Rich: ... this thought as I was exiting the theater- David Canfield: Yeah. Katie Rich: ... when I saw it on Sunday, seeing her name as a, just producer. You know, she's a, sh, it was her idea. And I was like, "Good for her." David Canfield: [laughs]. Yeah. Katie Rich: Yeah. Richard Lawson: And a story credit. Katie Rich: Yeah. David Canfield: She, she would get nominated for screenplay if it were get nominated. Richard Lawson: And, and I think that that is one of the many [laughs], for [laughs] very far down the list of, like, why this film is notable, certainly, is Maria Bello's involvement. But it is kind of a fun inside baseball industry story that, like- Katie Rich: Mm-hmm. Richard Lawson: ... Maria Bello pitched Viola Davis on stage at a live event. Uh, and the crowd cheered, and then here we are however many years later- Katie Rich: [laughs]. Richard Lawson: ... and she's the star of the film- David Canfield: [laughs]. Richard Lawson: ... that got made for, you know- Katie Rich: [laughs]. Richard Lawson: Like, I, I, I think that, like, there's a fun, um... Like, I'm sure that people have been aware of this project for a long time and, and it struggles to get the proper financing, which I would argue it still didn't get as w, as much money as it deserved. Katie Rich: Mm-hmm. Richard Lawson: But, eh, you know, I, I, that, I think that goes awa-, g, a, a long way. It's a big studio film, which is always fun these days. And, um, you know, yeah, it does have the competition that, that David mentioned. But I don't know. There's something rousing about this movie that is sort of a, hard to argue with. And if you're sitting with that screener pile and this one comes up, it's entertaining. It's just over two hours. It's not some, you know... I think, again, it should be longer. But, like, it's di-, it's very digestible while also making you feel like you had a good meal, like a good, nourishing meal. And I, I don't know. I think that counts for a lot, as does, yes, the fact that TV and film's Maria Bello [laughs]- Katie Rich: [laughs]. Richard Lawson: ... somehow is behind all this. Katie Rich: I totally agree with you that it should have cost more and it should have been longer, um, and it's... I had a really fantastic time watching it. Um, but every time it would, like, cut away from a scene, I'd be like, "Oh, I want, like, a s, a sweeping vista- Richard Lawson: Yeah. Katie Rich: "... of a- Rebecca Ford: Mm-hmm. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Katie Rich: "... forest right now," um, which, you know, it was made for 50 million dollars, which is astonishing when you look at- Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm. Katie Rich: I mean, the costumes in that movie are really unbelievable. Um, but while I was watching, you mentioned Viola Davis, David, and I was thinking about Top Gun and a piece I wrote this summer about how why Tom Cruise would can perfectly valid, uh, Best Actor nominee for that movie. And I stand by it. But Viola Davis is doing... It's not a similar performance or character, but it is movie star gravitas. David Canfield: Yes. Katie Rich: Like, she is... She's not the center of the story even. Like, she, you know, she and Thuso M, Mbedu were kind of equal leads almost. Um, but you just watch her and you're like, "This is what she can do. Only Viola Davis could do this." Um, and I... For everything you were saying, David, I think she'd be a really great Best Actress nominee for that. David Canfield: Yeah. That's such an exciting category, and I think I say that every week. But- Katie Rich: [laughs]. David Canfield: I, I real, I really... I'm, I'm really thrilled with how it's shaping up, uh, because Viola just adds a really, a, another element of star power and, like, a fascinating new kind of performance for her to that field, which is going to only get more complicated when movies like Till and Babylon unveil themselves. So I'm excited for it. Katie Rich: Okay. One last thing before we wrap up, because, uh, there are actual awards being announced, uh, here and there, uh, tribute awards mostly this time of year. Um, but I was very intrigued that the cast of Fire Island will be receiving a tribute award at the Gothams in December. Um, those are kind of one of the first awards of the year. They focus on independent film. Um, the nominees will be announced on October 25th, so, like, it's really right around the corner. Um, and we've talked about Fire Island because it is technically eligible for the Emmys next year. I don't know if this tribute award means that they're going to try and somehow qualify in some other weird way. The, it might be too late for that. And the Gothams do TV as well. Um, but this felt to me like such an example of the weird state of awards that we're still living in. And I don't know if anyone else feels a little weird, uh, [inaudible 00:37:21], excited for Fire Island, but weird about it. David Canfield: I don't understand. Katie Rich: [laughs]. Rebecca Ford: [laughs]. David Canfield: I don't. Excited for Fire Island, but I don't understand. Richard Lawson: What I don't get is they just announced that it's eligible for Tonys. Katie Rich: [laughs]. Richard Lawson: I know it's about gay guys in New York, but, like- Katie Rich: [laughs]. Richard Lawson: ... that seems like a stretch. Katie Rich: Um, that musical number was excellent. So [laughs]0 Richard Lawson: Fair enough. Fair enough. Rebecca Ford: I'm all for it. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Yeah, that's true. I forgot about that. Katie Rich: Yeah. They're going to somehow qualify Britney Spears' Sometimes as a, um- Rebecca Ford: [laughs]. Katie Rich: ... as an original song [laughs]. Rebecca Ford: Do it. Yeah. I mean, the, it's, at the Academy meeting, they very much emphasized that the, uh, triple requirement is not going away. Obviously, this year is especially messy because of the COVID and, and the not the, not theatrical releasing of some movies and not others and, you know, Leo Grant being grandfathered in. And so it's, like, this is a real mess this year. I, I, I wonder, you know, if that rule is just hard and clear by next year, we won't be having this problem, or if, you know, these certain companies are going to try to push for this to keep happening. But it, it's a mess. I don't have any answers or solutions [laughs]., Katie Rich: I mean, given the news that HBO is going to put MagIc Mike 3 in theaters after all, after having said it was going to go to HBO Max, it, it does feel like there's some recognition, which the box office bears out. Like, put your movies in theaters and make a few extra million dollars. Like, hopefully, by this t, by next year, they have all come back to it. But you're right, Rebecca, that they might still be trying to fight that battle. David Canfield: Yeah. I, I thought of, um, in the context of this Fire Island win, the fact that Bros is coming out, uh, a week from Fri, a week from tomorrow, uh, as of this airing. And that's like the mov-, The Woman King, a movie that played really, really well at TIFF, deserves to be seen with big crowds and I think do really well and, and prove something to Hollywood that it has long ignored or pushed aside. And you wish, you, you hope, you root for these movies to, to get those kinds of big theatrical releases. And I do think that there is something to be said for the Academy holding to that rule, because they're, we are at a time, again, where people are going to the movies and are excited about original movies. And, um, it sucks that Fire Island is now in this weird middle ground, where it's clearly, to some extent at least, a part of this awards season. But, I mean, I would be very confused and surprised if Searchlight went to the trouble to try to get it- Katie Rich: Yeah. David Canfield: ... considered for, for Academy Awards, just because you don't have Emma Thompson [laughs] campaigning. You know, it, it's a different kind of calculus, I think, where it would be such a long shot and it would even more of a leap, I think, because it came out, you know... W, it wasn't acquired out of Sundance. It had long been planned for that kind of route. So I don't know how that would work, but, um, yeah, it's, it's kind of a, it's interesting that this is a moment where you have Fire Island getting this award as a streaming movie, but as a movie that was pretty well received. And you have Bros coming out in theaters, hopefully going to be at least some kind of hit, and maybe even getting a run beyond that for screenplay as previous Apatow productions have. Katie Rich: It does make me want, like, some critics groups to go rogue and looking at, like, um, Society of LGBTQ Entertainment Critics, for example. Like, give Fire Island the screenplay award. Like, who's going to stop you? Go make Searchlight regret- David Canfield: Yep. Katie Rich: ... the choices that they made that led us here [laughs]. David Canfield: Absolutely. Yeah. Katie Rich: All right. New York Film Critic Circle, Richard, you start whipping up those votes for us. Richard Lawson: Oh, no. I'm, I'm a straight Am, American Hustle ticket this year to make up for last time. Katie Rich: [laughs]. Richard Lawson: They're doing a re-release, like Avatar, I think. So- Katie Rich: Yeah, exactly. In 3D, finally. [laughs]. Richard Lawson: Yeah. I think, so it d, it qualifies [laughs]. Katie Rich: [laughs]. Rebecca Ford: [laughs]. Richard Lawson: I'm finally going to get over on all those guys. David Canfield: [laughs]. Katie Rich: That does it for this week's show. We'll be back next week. Find us in the meantime at VanityFair.com, on Twitter HWD, and on our own, I'm @KateyRich, and Richard? Richard Lawson: RiLaws. Katie Rich: And David? David Canfield: DavidCanfield97. Katie Rich: And Rebecca? Rebecca Ford: BeccaMFord. Katie Rich: You can also text us at 213-513-7215 or go to JoinSubtext.com/LittleGoldMen. Richard, this week, someone wrote in to say that your expansive vocabulary has been serving as their word of the day. So keep up it. Richard Lawson: [laughs]. Okay. Today's word is American Hustle. Katie Rich: [laughs]. Our editor and producer is Brett Fuchs, and this week's award for the best late breaking review of West Side Story goes to Rebecca Ford. Rebecca Ford: All those theater kids are athletic?