Katey Rich: Hello, and welcome to Little Gold Men, the award season podcast from Vanity Fair. Speaker 2: It's such an honor to present this next award. Speaker 3: And here are the nominees. Speaker 4: And the Oscar goes to. Speaker 5: And the Oscar goes to. Speaker 6: And I can't deny the fact that you like me, right now, you like me. Speaker 7: I'm the king of the world. Speaker 8: Here's a mistake, Moonlight, you guys won the Best Picture. Katey Rich: I am Katey Rich, and I'm here for our interview episode with David Canfield. Hello, David. David Canfield: Hello. Katey Rich: Uh, David, what a joyous day for us both. Uh- David Canfield: What a joyous day. Katey Rich: [laughs], you got to talk to Emma Thompson, um, star of _Good Luck to You; Leo Grande_. Uh, somewhat surprised entrant into this year's Oscar race, as we've discussed already, but like who wouldn't relish the opportunity to talk to Emma Thompson? What did you guys talk about? David Canfield: We talked about everything. Katey Rich: [laughs]. David Canfield: We did, uh, we did talk about streaming quite a bit. You know, the movie is this very intimate, theatrical two-hander, um, in which she plays, uh, a teacher who hires a sex worker to have an orgasm, 'cause she's never had one before. And it's a really beautiful script, and it's just brilliantly performed by both her and Daryl McCormack, who plays the sex worker in question, um, about these two people getting to know each other, both emotionally and sexually. And, um, for Emma, in, in the context of this movie, being on Hulu was kind of a special thing, because it is so much about our private lives that, you know- Katey Rich: Mm. David Canfield: ... you know, having it go into people's homes and talking to people about experiencing it in their homes was, was special and she made ar- makes the argument in this interview that, "Um, why wouldn't that be worthy of consideration because it was the right mode for which this movie to be seen." It was released in cinemas internationally. We of course, talked on this podcast about the, you know, evolving, um, eligibility guidelines here. But I think she makes a really compelling point. Katey Rich: Um, that is a really lovely thought, that had not occurred to me and, and a lot of my talking about _Good Luck to You; Leo Grande_. And, and I think there's power in seeing something like that in a theater, um, which, you know, people around the world, I guess got the chance to, um, but that's a, uh... it was really nice way to put it. Of course, she managed to put it in a really lovely way. David Canfield: Of course, she did. Katey Rich: [laughs]. David Canfield: [laughs]. We also talked a lot about, uh, this coming from a first time screenwriter, her last, I think, really juicy film role was from... That was in Late Night, which was Mindy Kaling first feature script, uh, and, and talking a lot about wanting to elevate voices like that and herself having a big screenwriting debut long time ago Sense- Katey Rich: Yeah. David Canfield: ... and Sensibility brought her to the Oscars. Um, so there's a lot of full circle in this to the conversation as well. Katey Rich: Um, well, I can't wait to hear the rest of it. Let's hear your conversation with Emma Thompson. David Canfield: Emma Thompson, thank you so much for joining us today to talk, uh, Good Luck to You, Leo Grande, and your beautiful Hulu movie, [laughs] which has been newly designated, uh, eligible for Oscar consideration. Emma Thompson: Thank God. David Canfield: I wanted to start... Thank God. It deserves, it deserves it. We on this podcast have been speaking for a long time about it deserving exactly that, [laughs]. Emma Thompson: That's so sweet of you. Uh, uh, so, it's so lovely. I mean, I didn't mind at all, 'cause it's not sort of why we do it at all. But, um, I think for the writer and, and the director, it's... it is a wonderful thing. Ha- having said that, of course now we won't get nominated for anything at all. David Canfield: [laughs]. Emma Thompson: And this podcast will become a kind of famously sort of hubristic and kind of slightly, slightly embarrassing thing that people will roll out. Do you remember when she did that podcast on that thing called Little Gold Men, and then the, the film was roundly ignored by every single award ceremony after that. Yes. Well, that's what happens when you get too big for your boots. That's [inaudible 00:04:02] country, David, I'm just- David Canfield: All f- Emma Thompson: ... [inaudible 00:04:04]. David Canfield: ... all, all for not, all for not. Um, but we're here, so we may as well make the best of it, right? Emma Thompson: Let's do it. David Canfield: [laughs], let's do it. Um, I, I did wanna start with the streaming question because, um, it's an interesting streaming only movie, in that you are more... I'm going to say naked as an actor. I mean that figuratively for the most part, [laughs] than you are typically. And you're really going straight into people's living rooms and homes. Did that feel like a vulnerable kind of experience for you? What was the re- How did you observe the release of the movie from that perspective? Emma Thompson: It was a very interesting journey, actually, for me the, the release of the movie, because when we first saw it, we saw it in a tiny little screening room in Soho, and the pair of us sat there. And we did... we had to hold on to each other all the way through and then at the end, we couldn't really speak because it's been such a sort of intense experience. And of- and actually, of course, in a way, a bizarre way and extremely private experience that then became, you know, a public one. And I, I would say that, that the most vulnerable I felt was in Berlin, uh, the film festival in this massive cinema, that was like a bloody football field. I mean, huge wraparound room where we were, you know, we were pretty large on screen. Um, and when they told me that it was gonna stream, I thought, in a way, in America, there's, I think, more puritanism about sex and sexual pleasure, um- David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Emma Thompson: ... [inaudible 00:05:33] even than there is here, and there's a lot here. And I thought, maybe it's easier for people to see it in their, in their homes. And I've spoken to so many people who've watched it in, in, in different ways, and they've said, "You know, I, I prefer to watch it on my own. Um, I decided halfway through with my... I was watching it with my husband, dad, whatever, to actually stop for a minute, because [laughs] it's very per- personal." And it brings an awful lot of things up for people, and, um, so I thought it was a very, it was a very good decision, actually. I was, I was also extremely glad that we opened it all around the world in cinemas, you know. But I, I watch a lot of things that I can't get to in the cinema. And when I get to them on, on the small screen, or, you know, my tele, which is reasonably large, I'm very, very grateful to have had the chance to see them. And I, I think that with Leo, which is a tiny movie, you know, little independent movie- David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Emma Thompson: ... this was the best way of getting the most people to see something that's after all, you know, about two people in a bedroom, it couldn't be more intimate, and therefore sort of perhaps in a sense, more appropriate for home viewing. David Canfield: Hmm. A- and to the point about it being, uh, a small movie, very, [laughs] very dialog-driven movie. Um, it does make you wonder how a film should be considered, say, for an Oscar nomination, because this is the path that could take to find an audience. You know, as someone who's worked in film for a long time, has been a part of being movies, small movies, everything in between, what did you make of the debate of whether, you know it needed to be released in US theaters to be considered and, you know, basically the state of independent movie, because and increasingly, it is in a, in a streaming world? Emma Thompson: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it reminds me of, uh... a little bit of all the debate that came around when video started, I'm old enough- David Canfield: [inaudible 00:07:30]. Emma Thompson: ... to remember that [inaudible 00:07:31]. So and everyone said, "It's gonna kill cinema, it's gonna kill cinema." It didn't kill cinema. "Um, you know, cinema is gonna kill theater." It didn't kill theater. "COVID is gonna kill theater." Everyone's going back to the theater. We all get into a bit of a panic, I think. And I'm old enough to remember all of those panics and to know that actually, in the end, really great stories do find their way out m- m- most of the time. I'm, uh... But I'm not... I mean, I'm not underplaying the fact that I'll find something and suddenly go, "God, why didn't I see this at the time?" Because everything's so under the, the sort of huge tsunami of massive movies, and if at the Cannes Film Festival, you've got literally got fighter jets going over- David Canfield: Mm-hmm, [laughs]. Emma Thompson: ... [inaudible 00:08:23]. I go, "Well, look, if we're not gonna be supported by independent movie film festivals, then that's something that's got to be taken responsibility for." You know, we can't, we can't just put all our eggs into the baskets of these enormous great movies that, um, whatever happens, they have to be formulaic. Otherwise, they don't make the money back. They have to meet the expectation, the expectation is very clearly laid out. And whilst I love going to see big movies, I really do enjoy it. But I... Independence of... has always been, you know, where I've made mine really. And I don't know, we had this, we had th- we had this argument about The Meyerowitz Stories with Noah Baumbach and- David Canfield: Hmm. Emma Thompson: ... and [inaudible 00:09:13], and Noah was very upset about not being eligible, because i- the, the film had been streamed. And I, I understand that if you're a filmmaker, you know, and you- you've made something that co- coming up of your heart and you want to see it on the big screen. And that's where you've designed it for. It's extremely upsetting to [laughs] think of people watching it, even on an aeroplane. You know, I understand that, I do. And I don't think there's any simple answer at all. I really don't. Um, but I did say to know at the time, so many more people will see it. And actually it's for story as well, isn't it? It's not just this kind of visual feast that we, uh, what... which is the reason we go to the cinema, you know? I mean, I wouldn't have wanted, for instance, to watch Dune, on a, a telephone. David Canfield: Right. Emma Thompson: Um, I, I went to the biggest cinema in London to see Dune, and I just adored every second of it. I just loved it. Love the theater, you know, the kind of massiveness of it and feeling like you're in a, uh... you are really on a different planet, it was absolute heaven. But I know that you don't have to go to the... a huge cinema to see Leo, you don't have to. At the same time, it's a completely different experience, because Sophie Hyde has rendered our faces and our bodies this, this landscape. Is that it's so interesting, isn't it? How movies play differently in different shapes and sizes. And I'm... because I'm not a director, I, I don't perhaps feel as threatened, if you like, by something like- David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Emma Thompson: ... streaming. I, I, I don't really. I, I know that I still love going to the cinema, and people do absolutely go to the cinema. But you know, particularly in America, when there's all those sorts of loads and loads of places in America, where they're just never... they're not gonna put this movie on, and in our little village in Scotland, our town in Scotland, I went into the local cinema and said, "Are gonna get this movie, because it's gonna be..." [inaudible 00:11:20] wonderful time with it, I think. They said no. So I organized a screening, which was full. And then another screening where I was... where I did a Q&A, which was, which was sort of like crammed. But, you know, people don't... They get out of the habit as well. And they also I think, in small local places, um, they assume that the cinema won't be full then there'll be a place for them. So again, all of these questions are questions we have to ask the public, what is it they want? And if they want independent cinema, they have to go and see it, they have to go to the independent cinemas and support them. You can't just say, "Oh, you know, oh, independent cinema, oh, isn't it a shame, blah, blah." You have to actually go and support them by going to the independent cinemas and choosing them over the big complexes. David Canfield: Yes. Emma Thompson: So we have to make this happen ourselves. It's, it's a personal responsibility, as well as, you know, a philosophical discussion about art. David Canfield: I think one of the benefits of making a movie like this for you as an actor, and what's so striking about your performance is that this character is so complete, and complex, and or- ordinary to an [laughs] extent. Um, and I, I was thinking about, you know, some of your recent performances that I've really enjoyed like Years and Years, Cruella, [laughs], Late Night, and these are all larger than life figures in here, you get a very different key to play, which I imagine was pretty exciting. Emma Thompson: Absolutely. The way I would put it when I was thinking about it is that she's the person who is always standing next to the person who's doing the interesting thing. David Canfield: Hmm. Emma Thompson: And suddenly, she's the one doing the interesting thing. And you suddenly realize that this very ordinary woman who's lived a very ordinary, decent, useful, complex in all the normal human ways life has suddenly decided to do something absolutely extraordinary, actually. Um, and, and, and really see it through even though it- it's like watching someone who's never done a bungee jump before, just moving, just slowly pace by pace towards the edge of, of the cliff and, uh, uh, a playing her terror was really one of the most [laughs] enjoyable things I've ever done, because it was so funny, but at the same time, it was also so heartbreaking. David Canfield: Hmm. Emma Thompson: So, so heartbreaking. And, and the ordinariness of her, her struggle with herself and her incapacity to think that she even deserved any pleasure. The fact that she'd never really asked herself that question before, but suddenly, it was something rising up inside her, you know, that she couldn't... she just couldn't suppress anymore, and I think that does happen with some people. David Canfield: Yeah, absolutely. Um, you... I, I saw you mentioned rehearsing with Darryl, your co-star for a day in the nude, um, which is a in... I would imagine a first time experience for you, [laughs], um, and for him. Emma Thompson: Mm. David Canfield: Um, what did that, you know, what did that give the two of you in terms of your chemistry in the movie, and also, what was that experience like for you pre-filming, um, just in terms of being so vulnerable in that way? Emma Thompson: Hmm. Well, um, it was so... it was just wonderful. I knew that we had to do it, and I had done nudity before. I spent two delightful days nude with Jeff Goldblum when I was in my 20s. We were both so nervous, it was in The Tall Guy, and we were so nervous. We ha- We both had indigestion, I think for two weeks beforehand, but once we got into it, we just had the best time. And actually, that, that has always stood me in good stead because I always remember thinking, "Oh, it's okay, it's fine. It's all right. Um, as long as you're calm, everyone else is calm." And Sophie, and me, and Daryl, we'd all said, "We have to take our kit off before the day. Otherwise, it'll just feel too pointed," if you'll pardon that- David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Emma Thompson: ... unfortunate expression. Um, and Sophie Hyde, our director, is absolutely wonderful, wonderful woman. Um, she's arranged it. So there's at the end of this five day rehearsal period, which we really needed, because we wanted to block it all out, we had so much to set up, 'cause we only had 19 days to shoot the whole thing, which was a lot. I mean, it was a lot. We couldn't... We shot 12 page sections often in... Oh, so the, the performance aspect of it was just so, so intense. So we needed to get as much under our belts as it were as possible. And so then the last day, she did the little rehearsal space, which had already become quite whim-like. And I jokingly said, "Oh, Soph, you know, you'll have to take your clothes off as well." And she said, "Oh, no, no, no, I'm not gonna do that." David Canfield: [laughs]. Emma Thompson: And then she said, "What about it," and then she said, "All right, then." David Canfield: [laughs]. Emma Thompson: So, [laughs], so we all, we all took our clothes off sort of bit by bit, and we... and each time we did, we said, "This part of my body means this to me, and in this part of my body, I have felt these things, and in this part of my body, I've got this scar, which came from this experience, where I've got an internal scar, or, this is the bit that I like, this is a bit I don't like. I find this bit difficult." And so we talked our way through our bodies in that very... And that then you be- it becomes normalized incredibly quickly, because of course, we are, but poor bear forked animals, under old clothes. David Canfield: Hmm. Emma Thompson: All of us. So it's not like we're suddenly revealing... I don't know, um, an extra head. It's gonna be normal- David Canfield: Sure. Emma Thompson: ... whatever it is, you know. Um, and, and then we did a very interesting exercise where we drew around our bodies on paper, and we- David Canfield: Oh, wow. Emma Thompson: ... map things in and certain... the internal things and little bits of criss-cross hatched bits that we felt were important. And, and, and we also, we also sort of touched each other skin, because, you know, you have to feel the person that you're going to, t- to have to be very close to physically. [laughs] I just remember, darling Darrell is absolute glory, a glorious young man, and who's, who's in his represen- representation of Leo, I just think, "Oh, God, I hope every young man looks at this young man and thinks, 'I would like to be like him.'" David Canfield: Hmm. Emma Thompson: 'Cause he's such a great role model. Anyway, he was looking at my hand, and he was moving the skin over the bones in my hand, and he said, "Yeah, you know, the, the skin sort of moves, it moves quite easily over your bones." And I said, "Yeah, that's because the cells in my hands are what started forming about 40 years before you were born. That's what..." David Canfield: [laughs]. Emma Thompson: [inaudible 00:18:24] he didn't know that the reason that, that, that was happening on my hand was because I was so old. David Canfield: Right. Emma Thompson: And, and the skin is 60 years... 63 years old, you know, and his skin doesn't do that, 'cause it's 28 years old. And that- David Canfield: Hmm. Emma Thompson: ... those kinds of experiences were very, very moving. And, and it's, of course, it's a very te- it's very tender. And we've, we've said a lot, so it's... I don't want to bore you, but we've said that whenever people ask us about that last couple of days, when we did have to strip off and- David Canfield: Yeah. Emma Thompson: ... do the sex scenes, that it was just such bliss. It was such bliss. David Canfield: Yeah. Emma Thompson: Because as well, Nancy and Leo are happy. They're enjoying themselves. They're giving each other pleasure in an incredibly deep and intimate way without it being romantic, or indeed, particularly complicated. And there, there was something incredibly releasing about that. And of course, there were no words, [laughs]. David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Emma Thompson: Apart from, apart from, uh, my favorite ad-lib of all time, which I didn't, I didn't know was gonna happen [inaudible 00:19:37] made me laugh so much when we s- we... it, it got the biggest laugh from us every time, it was when she gets to [inaudible 00:19:41], [laughs]. David Canfield: [laughs]. Emma Thompson: You know, and it's just [inaudible 00:19:48]- David Canfield: Oh, wow, that was [inaudible 00:19:49]- Emma Thompson: That's much fun. David Canfield: Oh, well, that's great, [laughs]. Um, just thinking about you guys exploring each other in that way. I know you've said, this movie made you recognize, uh, you call it, the waste of time of not accepting one's body. Emma Thompson: Hmm. David Canfield: And obviously a lot of comes with that as an actress who has been in this industry for a long time. Emma Thompson: Hmm. David Canfield: Um, so, did you come to a new kind of place in that process? Um, I would imagine there's a certain amount of unlearn in just in making a movie like this, which counters a lot of what Hollywood tells particularly women. Emma Thompson: Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah, you can't learn it because it's brainwashing. David Canfield: Yeah. Emma Thompson: It's, it's just... I've been brainwashed since I was very young, and the brainwashing continues, I think it's worse actually now, um, because I continued on social media. David Canfield: [inaudible 00:20:40]. Emma Thompson: So instead of people saying, "We are now going to inhabit the world, in our real selves in the... our real forms," people are taking their forms and photoshopping them themselves. David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Emma Thompson: So everything that I was brought up with, which only happened in magazines is now happening to people on people's phones. So that this notion of the ideal and the perfect, industrialized, banal, and tedious, though it is, um, has been made even more of a thing. And thus, we're looking at kids, uh, as young as eight saying, "I don't like my thighs. I don't like this," but, you know, anorexia hugely on the rise. So it's something that I've f- fought against all my life. But, you know, I can't, I can't, I can't fill in those runnels. I just can't do it, but I can, I can try to be the change, you know, I can, I can- David Canfield: Hmm. Emma Thompson: ... do that at least. A- a- at least I can be honest, and at least I can say, "Look, I accept this now or I accept this condition, my condition. I accept my body. I don't have to love it, um, but I accept it." David Canfield: You mentioned Sophia, your, your director makes a wonderful film here. Um, but it's also Katey brand's first feature script, which is pretty remarkable. You start in Mindy Kailing's first scripted feature as well, Late Nights, and you of course, came out, uh, with a bang yourself with your first scripted feature in Sense and Sensibility. Um, and it, it feels to me like there's a kind of nice full circle element there of, of getting these really rich roles, um, written by these women who have said that- Emma Thompson: Mm. David Canfield: ... they were inspired by you to some extent. Emma Thompson: No. Yeah. I mean, that's been just two of my favorite things ever. Mindy's script, you know, and, and women I know... I, I didn't know Mindy, and she said, "I've written this for you." And it's such an honor and a privilege. But the fact that added to the honor and privilege, it's a fucking great script, and brilliantly, and great to play, is one of my favorite jobs. And then also, with similarly with Katy, saying, "Well, I'm not sure you know, I'm not sure [inaudible 00:22:58]," I have a little look, and go, "Katey, this is fantastic. We have to make it." That connection. That cir- circular thing is just... Be- because that's sustainability, in essence, isn't it? It's like, you make something and then you make something for the next generation or you in... you be the thing, and then the next generation says, "Oh, yes. Okay, that's possible. I'll do that." That's sustainability. That's the sort of circle as you talk about is, it's how we feed each other. David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Emma Thompson: ... it's how we support each other. And, um, and so I'm incredibly privileged to have had those, those women write those pieces. And, and, you know, they're things we've never seen before. We've never- David Canfield: Right. Emma Thompson: ... the late night talk show host, we've never seen a woman in search for an orgasm in that way, exploring as well other entirely taboo subjects like motherhood. And, you know, being a useful member of society, you know, she says, "Well, I could have done something else. Why don't... Why did I do that? Uh, it might have been better if I hadn't, I might have had a better life." David Canfield: Mm. Emma Thompson: And whilst I'm not an individualist in the sense that I think that, you know, having the best possible life for yourself is the most important thing in the world. I d- I believe that we are all connected and that we have to be... we, we sort of... we have to be cooperating all the time with each other. You know, we can't just go off and say, "Well, I'm gonna do this, and it doesn't matter about everybody else." I, I, I don't, I don't adhere to that either. I think, um, we're social animals. We belong in social groups, and when we're in those groups, we're in service socially to one another. And I think that's right too, but there's a difference between the sort of baleful kind of suppressive and repressive effect of patriarchy on women, particularly on women's freedom, that have to be changed, because they're not good for anybody. They're not good for anybody. And they're very much I think, at the root of much of the violence against women and girls. David Canfield: Hmm. For directors and screenwriter specifically, do you see that changing at all? Um, I spoke to Maggie Gyllenhaal last year about her directorial debut, and she'd mentioned you saw an early cut of the film, and you'd spoken about it. Um, and she said that she just had no mental space to consider herself as a filmmaker, even though she realized that's really what she's been all along. Emma Thompson: Mm. No, absolutely. I mean, that's what we talked about, and her, her, her presentation of the hell and the torment of motherhood, if it's not what actually you want to do was brilliant, and of course, it's Elena Ferrante as well who's also- David Canfield: Hmm. Emma Thompson: ... represented female relationships with other females and with themselves so brilliantly in her all her run of Neapolitan novels. Um, but Maggie and I have talked about this for years and years since we met on, on Stranger than Fiction, and then she came and did my Nanny McPhee. And so we've been mates for a long time and have talked about all of this for a very long time. And actually, one of the things that it should be and I think is becoming part of a mainstream conversation is that you don't have to have babies to be a complete woman. You just don't- David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Emma Thompson: ... have to do it. And, and that I think there's still a huge taboo about that, huge. And of course, you know, then you become a mother, and you realize that everything's your fault. David Canfield: Hmm. Emma Thompson: Because everything's the mother's fault, everything. And, and in, in popular psychology, that's changing a bit, but certainly when psychology began, that was everything, and it was all written by men, and it was all very bad science- David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Emma Thompson: ... and all that stuff has to be unpacked, taken apart, and redefined, you know, re-explored. And all of these movies that we're talking about are doing that. And, and I find that quite helpful, because if I, as a single person has been sort of part of three of those, sort of journeys, either in actual person or in conversation, I feel that's quite... Well, it's hopeful, isn't it? David Canfield: Yeah. Quite meaningful, I think. Emma Thompson: Mm. Yeah. David Canfield: Yeah. Emma Thompson: To me, it's very meaningful, very meaningful. David Canfield: Yeah. Uh, the other side of that, I suppose is, are there things that you, you look at now, and you say, "I, I don't wanna do that anymore"? Or, you know, because we are talking about a collection of very interesting characters and films, um, and that isn't necessarily the journey that many actresses [laughs] on a certain age get to have. So I'm curious how you've navigated that, particularly the past few years? Emma Thompson: Well, I, I, I mean, I- I've never done anything I didn't actually really want to do- David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Emma Thompson: ... not really. So that's been good. That's been useful, because it means that you can trust your instincts in a way or at least. Yeah. Um, but do you saying... what do you mean that, that I don't want to do that anymore? Wh- what specifically do you mean by that? David Canfield: Just, I suppose, as these kinds of conversations have started out more, um, thinking about what a movie is trying to say in a way that maybe you just hadn't thought of it. Like say, the way Leo Grande talks about sexuality, even for me watching that movie, it was extremely eye-opening, and it's not necessarily something that any movie had presented to me. So therefore, I couldn't think of not doing the alternate say, if that makes sense. Emma Thompson: Yeah, I mean, I think... what I think is there are certain stories we really do have to stop telling, 'cause I think they're quite damaging. David Canfield: Right. Emma Thompson: I think two of those are, um... Well, one is, and, and they lived happily ever after, that's just bullshit. And- David Canfield: [laughs]. Emma Thompson: ... and I think that romantic stories need to really start to... And again, you know, Noah, it did that brilliantly, I thought in Marriage Story, you know- David Canfield: Mm. Emma Thompson: ... really exploring how something can be- become utterly destroyed, and then something else can grow out of it. That- that's a kind of very good example of the destruction of and they live happily ever after. Because it- David Canfield: Yeah. Emma Thompson: ... represents ,you know, that li- li- the first stages of love and then, and then how terribly wrong that can go, how, how painful. That happens to most people, um, in their lives at some point, um, and any good marriage actually involves death and rebirth and death and rebirth. David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Emma Thompson: We don't tell that story. So everybody goes, "Oh, my God if death come along. I can't... what can I... I can't deal with it. I'll move on." Um, so that the other story that we really need to stop telling is about one man saving the world. This is just a very, very dull story. David Canfield: Mm. Emma Thompson: And, um, it, it just has to stop. It has to stop. I'm so bored. I'm so bored. And when I talked to my brilliant producer, friend, Lindsay Doran, she does a talk about the female hero and, you know, what writers are told. And they're, they're, they're told the most extraordinary things now in this... today, you know, they're told, "Well, you know, she can't cry. She can't cry, 'cause that's showing feminine weakness. So she's got to be badass." So all the female tropes now have to be like the men. And i- i- so you go, W- [laughs] [inaudible 00:30:24]- David Canfield: Yeah. Yeah, [laughs]. There's a big gap here. Yeah. Emma Thompson: ... the same story. We're not... We, we have to go into the, the... in between bit and say, "But what is this that we're representing?" We're, we're just saying the same thing again, and again. And actually, it occurred to me that, that the story about one man's saving the world is, in fact, i- i- incredibly damaging. Because if you think that that's what you're supposed to do, then you're always going to be disappointed in yourself, you're never going to sha- you're never gonna, you're never gonna be able to do that. David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Emma Thompson: We, we, we can't do that. None of us can do that. God knows, we would like to, I would love it. David Canfield: [laughs]. Emma Thompson: [inaudible 00:31:07] I grew up, identifying with all of those male heroes who saved the world in whatever way they did, whether it was in a, in a Texan town on a horse, you know, whether it was in space, or whatever. Um, but that's just... that story just has to go, [laughs]. David Canfield: Yeah, I think Leo Grande is a [laughs] good example of a movie that does the very opposite of that. Emma Thompson: Yeah, it really does, 'cause it undoes... It actually acknowledges in really genuine ways and authentic ways, the complexity of the human condition [laughs]. And we're not very good a- at, at recognizing how complicated we are. And if we were better at it, um, we'd be much calmer, actually. We're so anxious, human beings are naturally anxious anyway. David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Emma Thompson: But we don't recognize that either. So much... so many of our stories are about how to be certain, how to be certain, and that's one of the most vulnerable places you can be. David Canfield: Hmm. Indeed, a- all right, Emma, but we are out of time, but thank you so much. This was really wonderful. Emma Thompson: Ah, thank you, David. It was so great to talk to you. Katey Rich: That does it for today's episode. We'll be back on Thursday. In the meantime, find us on Twitter @HWD, and on our own, I'm @Kateyrich, and David? David Canfield: @Davidcanfield97. Katey Rich: Our editor and producer as always is Brett Fuchs.