Katey Rich: Hello and welcome to Little Gold Men, the awards season podcast from Vanity Fair. Speaker 2: It's such an honor to present this next award. Speaker 3: And here are the nominees. Speaker 4: And the Oscar goes to... Speaker 5: And the Oscar goes to... Speaker 6: And I can't deny the fact that you like me, right now. You like me. Speaker 7: I'm the king of the world. Speaker 8: There's a mistake. Moonlight, you guys won best picture. Katey Rich: I'm Katey Rich, congested with seasonal allergies. I'm here with Richard Lawson. Richard Lawson: Hello. Katey Rich: With David Canfield. David Canfield: Hi. Katey Rich: And Rebecca Ford. Rebecca Ford: Hi. Katey Rich: You never know what your voice sounds like coming out of your own head to other people, so I feel like I should just apologize immediately for sounding mild- mildly congested. Just a voice not fit for radio this week. But we power through. Um, there's a lot going on right now. New York Film Festival carries onward with some exciting world premiers. There are in-person events happening all over the place, which some of us have born witness to. And I wanna, uh, I wanted to dive in on two specific categories that are, uh, near and dear to my heart. Original song is always in the incredibly fascinating best director category this year, I think. Um, but I wanted to start going back to the New York Film Festival, What She Said, which is, uh, one the festival's few really huge world premiers. And Rebecca, you got to see this movie a long time ago. We've been planning on doing this first look reveal for it. It's finally up. You can finally tell the world about She Said. Uh, what did you learn talking to all the major players about this movie? Rebecca Ford: The main thing I wanted to ask them about is, in the book, there's nothing about Jodie Kantor or- or Megan Twohey's personal life. And the film actually goes pretty deep into that. And I thought that was pretty fascinating because obviously they're journalists and aren't used to sharing about their lives. And so I talked to both Megan and Jodie about that who seem to still be getting used to that fact that they're sort of the center of attention instead of the ones writing the story. And also Carey Mulligan and, uh, Zoe Kazan who play them. And they all were really willing to sort of share personal details about their own, um, struggles as working moms. And I thought that was really interesting to hear. You know, Megan had some post-partum depression, uh, because shed just had a child right before this investigation. And she, they, she really decided that she wanted that to be a part of the story and I thought that was really fascinating. And I think it makes the film feel a lot bigger than it would have if it had just been the investigation, though that part of the film is done really, really well. Katey Rich: Yeah 'cause there's, it's not like there's a lack of like personal stories and details in the She Said book, which we talked about this summer and I read. Um, you know, the stories of what happened to the women with Harvey Weinstein are fascinating, but it sounds like the personal aspect of it kind of makes your investment in the investigation a little bit stronger, maybe. Rebecca Ford: Totally. Yeah they feel, you know, these characters on screen feel like whole people who are juggling a lot and dealing with many, many things. So it- it definitely made it feel more authentic. And- and it's funny, 'cause all four of them just kept saying like, this isn't about me, like this is about a much, a story much bigger than me. And I'm like, I know, I know. But I wanna her about you, so. They were all just trying to sort of balance, um, you know, that aspect of this story. Katey Rich: Richard, you've been at the New York Film Festival a lot. Do you feel like this was the- the right audience to, you know, this is one of the latest festival debuts we've had this season. Is this the right crowd for it? Richard Lawson: I think so. I mean I haven't seen it yet, I'm seeing it later this week when the press screening is... But I'm very, very eager to see it. I re-watched Spotlight recently just to kind of like prime the pump for- Katey Rich: Oh. Richard Lawson: ... that kind of movie. Katey Rich: How's it hold up? Richard Lawson: Um, it's good. I mean it's a little more melodramatic at times than I remembered. Katey Rich: Mm-hmm. Richard Lawson: But it's still such a pleasure to watch. Um, but yeah I think She Said is- is kind of ideal, you know? Obviously there's the New York connection, both with the New York Times being the ones that broke the story but also on the grimmer side like Harvey Weinstein was a very New York kind of figure in the, in Hollywood, weirdly. So I think, yeah, people will be kind of that- that mix of like rousing entertainment, one would assume, and also serious though. Uh, I think that's a good mix. I mean, you know, obviously something like Tar is also a perfect fit for like the Lincoln Square area, you know, given what it's about. But I think, yeah, I think She Said like had, if that movie premiered at Telluride where it had to content with oth- you know, a lot of other big movies, or Toronto which was so filled, I think that movie could have sort of gotten lost in the shuffle. Whereas being a big world premier at New York Film Festival, that gives it much more of a stage, I think. Katey Rich: I was thinking with the New York Film Festival, um, The Inspection is also going to be, um, making its closing, it's gonna be the closing, uh, night film at the festival coming up. And David, you, uh, ran your interview with Effie Brown, a producer on the movie. Uh, which you did at Toronto kind of right after it had had this big, um, well received premier. I think it'll be really interesting to see how The Inspection plays at New York Film Festival, I think it might have been something you were just talking about, Richard, something that got a little overshadowed by everything that came after it at Toronto. Um, but David, I think anyone who reads your interview with Effie Brown is gonna be more interested to see it because she is just so frank about, not just what it took to make this movie, but get to there she is at this point in her career. David Canfield: Yeah. She is, of producers in Hollywood, I don't think anyone talks about what she called the art of producing better than she does. Just incredibly frank and candid, um, and really fascinating. You know, understanding the exact position of an independent film producer right now which is kind of terrifying, I found that incredibly illuminating and also just maybe have a whole new level of respect for her. She of course became known pretty much against her will because of the project Greenlight reboot in which she clashed with the likes of Peter Farrelly and Matt Damon on camera. And, um, after that she really struggled to find work because she was labeled as difficult, which is something that happens to particularly a lot of black women in Hollywood. And this movie, which she was very open about, represents her come back. And it's- it's a movie she helped usher from the very beginning with the director, Elegance Bratton, and A24 got on board early as well. And- and it's- it's a movie that I think reflects her unique strengths as a producer and the kinds of movies she has worked really hard to elevate. She was the producer of Real Women Have Curves, Dear White People, um, a number of independent movies that really did contribute to the cultural conversation in a pretty lasting way. Katey Rich: Yeah it feels like in the Oscar race we have like, Everything Everywhere All at Once is kind of the- the quintessential scrappy indie that's out there because it was such a huge box office hit. But I feel like there's more lanes for something like The Inspection to come through. Something that's really personal, a real labor of love, maybe like a little less glossy than like Tar, which is an indie but, you know, a little bit fancier. It- it, I, it seems to me that The Inspection story isn't really done yet and the New York Film Festival can tell us a lot about how it will play through the rest of the season. David Canfield: Yeah I definitely agree with that and I think there are a few obvious areas where you hope the film can find some traction, like best actors is by all accounts pretty thin this year relative to previous years. And Jeremy Pope absolutely deserves to be in that conversation. He's really excellent in the movie. He's pretty quickly made a name for himself in the industry with Tony nominations, he was Emmy nominated for Hollywood. Gabrielle Union is so terrific as his mother in a small but really pivotal role. Yeah it- it's a very effecting story and I- I think closing New York is a- a big test for its longevity in the awards race. It'll hit theaters in November before Thanksgiving. But it, you know, pushed the right way I could definitely see it finding some, finding enough fans to have a, have a life this season. Katey Rich: Yeah I mean we talked about the supporting actress being a- wild west and that Michelle Williams is out. So you never know. David Canfield: Make it more wild. Richard Lawson: Do we feel there's any possibility that A24 is stretched a little more thinly than they have been in years past? You know? Katey Rich: Hmm. Richard Lawson: You know, between that and Everything Everywhere and The Whale. Katey Rich: Yeah. Richard Lawson: Um, that feels like a- a big, a big- David Canfield: I mean- Richard Lawson: ... thing to deal with. I guess. David Canfield: From- from what I've, you know, from some conversations I've had... Not to say they've been open about being stretched thin, but I think there's an awareness internally that they're dealing with more than they usually deal with. And, um, with that comes different strategies and a lot more to juggle obviously in addition to The Whale and The Inspection, pretty aggressively hitting the fall circuit you had movies like After Sun play really well. Katey Rich: Mm-hmm, yeah. David Canfield: I remember in Telluride, you know, that movie was a special screening there. I spoke with someone from A24 who- who mentioned the sort of passionate effort to- to get that movie out of Cannes. Because it is a smaller movie. But the fact that it has had such an incredible reception, um, at North American festivals would indicate that maybe it too can have a kind of life. And Everything Everywhere has, you know, Michelle Yeoh has been heading from festival to festival and they've been, you know, doing some Q&As. So it's- it's a lot for them but it does feel like they have talent willing to really get out there for their movies, which is usually the biggest hurdle. And they have, I think, a really interesting slate of contender that appeal to different kinds of academy members and voters, and, uh, corners of the industry. Rebecca Ford: I mean the one thing we know about A24 is that they are really, really strong in the marketing of their films. Um, they come up with really creative campaigns. I think when it comes to awards it's a little less clear what their strategy is, but I just feel like because Everything Everywhere All at Once was their biggest box office hit ever, right? And also just such a success across the board. It just feels like they're gonna put everything they can into that one. And, yeah, I do wonder how they spread it out among the rest of theirs. 'Cause they don't, you know, from what we know, they don't, they don't spend the budget of like a Netflix on their awards campaign so- Katey Rich: No one does. Rebecca Ford: ... I think... No one does, no one does. But, you know, they- they're- they're a smaller company that I think really focuses on the films they make. So I'm curious to see how they're able to do that. 'Cause it is definitely a- a heavy slate to carry this year. Katey Rich: Yeah going, I'm looking at their Wikipedia page. And the- the COVID year they were really able to go in, all in on Minari. Um, which was a- a more academy friendly movie than like Uncut Gems. But also because of the pandemic they've just had fewer films to focus on. And then last year they had, uh, Come On Come On, The Humans, Red Rocket, uh, Tragedy of Macbeth. Like movies that, [inaudible 00:10:31] part two, movies we were all kind of fans of but none of which really got the traction with the academy you might have wanted them to. So I wonder if that taught them anything about how they spread their attention and how they might reserve course on that. 'Cause I don't think they released Everything Everywhere All at Once thinking that a huge Oscar campaign was in their future. They might have hoped it- David Canfield: Not at all. Katey Rich: ... but how could you plan for something like that? David Canfield: Totally. Richard Lawson: Well they certainly have adapted. Um, or at least the- the Everything Everywhere crew has. I did a- a Q&A onstage with, um, some of the people, the Daniels, Jamie Lee Curtis, Stephanie Hsu, uh, Ke Huy Quan, uh, and a producer on the film, Jonathan Wong, on Sunday. And they kind of, I was telling you guys before we recorded, they kind of struck me as the CODA crew, you know? Because I think one of that film's strength was that they were all always this cohesive, we all bonded, we're so like in love with each other kind of energy. And- and that really obviously worked for CODA to quite, to quite an effect. Um, and that was kind of the vibe I got from the Everything Everywhere people, uh, on Sunday was that like, you know, it was kind of the easiest gig I've ever done 'cause I, all I had to do was ask like four questions and they just talked to each other for 30 minutes. Katey Rich: [laughs] Richard Lawson: Um, which was, and I mean the audience, it was a SAG audience. Lots of applause, uh, Ke Huy Quan, like told, like Jamie Lee Curtis was like can you tell everyone the story about you getting back into acting, you know, after decades of working behind the camera? You know, 'cause he famously was in Indiana Jones as a kid and- and that story was really sweet. And Stephanie Hsu was like gave him an extra bit of like, you know, praise and every... It just felt like very like a love fest, um, but not in a cloying way. And the Daniels spoke really eloquently about the origins of the film and how the, you know, and- and the making of it. And I don't know, they, it just, that- that is a formidable group of people who are very invested in the film that they're campaigning for. David Canfield: Mm-hmm. That's so- Katey Rich: That's a really- David Canfield: ... so interesting. Katey Rich: ...I love... Yeah, to, talking to each other we were saying the same thing. 'Cause I'm thinking about the power of a group and I think, Rebecca, you were the one who kept drawing the parallel between CODA and Parasite, where they would all walk into a room together and the entire energy of the room would turn toward them. Like that's a really powerful thing in, when campaigns get into swing. Rebecca Ford: Totally. Yeah I think every, the last few years I feel like there's been one film where they do that really well. And- and I'm not saying it's only strategic, uh, that that happens. Katey Rich: [laughs] Rebecca Ford: But, you know, for a- awards experts who are paying attention, I feel like if you can get your group to really feel like they're that cohesive and really like change the energy in a room like that, it- it's worth pushing them all out there at the same time. David Canfield: It- it's interesting that they're all movies that didn't necessarily come into the race, uh, or just release with any kind of awards expectations. You know, Parasite premiered in Cannes, it was not a Hollywood movie at all. CODA was a COVID Sundance premier. Um, that was then released on Apple in the summer. And Everything Everywhere, like you were just saying, Katey, was released in the spring and- and was- Katey Rich: Premiered at South By, didn't it? David Canfield: Yeah exactly. And was not, I would say, thought to have this kind of strength at this point in the season, um, and I think that does speak to the fact that it is a maybe more authentic kind of cast bonding that the industry gets to see and fall in love with. Because, yeah, to Rebecca's point that is a huge part of a modern best picture Oscar campaign. You know, between Parasite and CODA was Nomad Land, but that was very much a COVID year, nobody was doing anything in person. So the last two campaigns like that have been for movies that found that on the ground embrace. Katey Rich: Yeah. Well I do have, I can't help but think of what you said about Woman Talking at Telluride, David. And that group of women traveling together as a pack. And they've been in New York the, that had it's New York Film Festival premier this week. So, you know, they- they might be, uh, following that same tactic through the season. David Canfield: Yeah absolutely. Katey Rich: Well speaking of in person events, um, David you did a Q&A for Tar, uh, on its opening week. And it opened just in New York and LA. Um, there's an- an interesting Deadline article about how the like really classic like four theater platform release has not come back that well post COVID. And it really kind of mimicked a pre-COVID release where it makes like a, I think it was like a $40,000 per location average. Like really huge haul from a tiny amount of theaters. Um, so what was catching up with Cate Blanchett, uh, as this was all taking off, what was that like? David Canfield: Uh, a dream. [laughs] No, but, um, it was funny because, uh, it was the century city AMC in Los Angeles and I got there a little early. And I was with Todd Fields who actually couldn't ultimately join the Q&A 'cause he was not feeling well. But, um, there is this enormous Tar marquee outside of century city. Which is a big AMC. Now in LA a number of art house theaters have closed and so you have a situation where a small movie about a classical music conductor, like Tar, can get this enormous showcase at a big AMC. And he was just taking selfies with it and completely overwhelmed seeing it. He's truly never had that in his career as a director, having a movie have that kind of visual debut. Um, and it definitely carried over. The screening was full, it was a public screening. Cate did the Q&A with me one-on-one and she's been getting out there for this movie a whole lot. The Q&A was wrapping up and she decided to then throw some questions to the audience about the ending, which- Katey Rich: Oh. David Canfield: ... is not typical for, uh, an actor. And- Katey Rich: I would love to have a Tar spoiler section and hear what she wanted to hear from the audience. 'Cause I have been thinking a lot of about that ending. David Canfield: Well I have to be careful. But, uh, well it was my, it was my question to her. And it kind of just, she just kind of went off to, I wanna know what- what you guys think. And she starts calling on people and I'm like, you know, normally once the audience questions start they are either gone or checked out. Katey Rich: Yeah. David Canfield: And that was the opposite. So I think it's a movie she really loves and believes in and loves talking about. She's really engaged with it and I think that will be true for the next few months. Um, which also helps an Oscar campaign. But yeah there's- there's a lot of energy for the movie from what I could tell both just among the public which was pretty exciting and certainly among Cate and Todd. Katey Rich: I loved being in New York and seeing the Tar ads like on the subway ad billboards, like into the subway entrances there were a lot of. Um, and it's just so striking, it's not the like four quadrant blockbuster ad campaign movie. But in New York, you know, it was really treated that way which makes perfect sense. And, um, I think it'll be expanding to 10 more cities, uh, next week. So we'll see how other cities jump on board the Tar train. Richard Lawson: I don't know if it's just that the talent has gotten better at faking it, or they genuinely are, but like everyone seems really invested in their movies this year. David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Richard Lawson: Like Cate Blanchett is like so, like clearly the biggest Tar fan, you know? And- David Canfield: No totally. Richard Lawson: And obviously the Everything Everywhere, Paul Mescal has been like everywhere for After Sun, and seemingly not bored of it, you know, even though he's like a young guy who could be doing whatever, you know, whatever else with his evening. I went to a Banshees of Inisherin event and recently and like Colin Farell was just like not in the little VIP area ,he was just like with the crowd sitting down, having a wrap session about the movie. Like I overheard him saying it's manna from heaven, like how amazing the script. You know, like- like- like so he's really invested. Brandan Gleeson was there, like it just, it feels like everyone is just ready for their little passion project thing to get that kind of attention because they believe in it. And that's an exciting energy to be around. I'm sure there is one of the other contenders and some of the actors are like, oh God, this thing. But like I haven't felt that yet. David Canfield: Yeah. Woman King's another one. Rebecca Ford: Yeah. Richard Lawson: Yeah Woman King, Women Talking, like they're just so much stuff that like people really seem to be like I finally, we finally go this across the finish like, we're so proud of it. We're not gonna be, you know, sort of mock, um, humble about the, this awards season. Like we're going all in. Rebecca Ford: I don't wanna be a cynic because I'm not usually a cynic on this podcast. Richard Lawson: [laughs] Rebecca Ford: But it it's also very early in the season, Richard. I just feel like, let's check in in a month and see who's still on the campaign trail. Katey Rich: See how they're doing at the Golden Globes. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Are you saying Colin Farell won't have a wrap session with me around early December? Katey Rich: [laughs] David Canfield: Depend on the New York film critic's circle decisions. Richard Lawson: Fair enough. Rebecca Ford: Yeah once they start losing some stuff, let's see what happens. Katey Rich: The Banshees ener-, uh, energy though it came off on SNL. Um, you know, I only watched Brandan Gleeson's monologue, baa, but Colin Farell made a, you know, quote unquote surprise, uh, cameo in it. And they're just so fun to watch together. And I- I saw Banshees last week and it was like the dynamic of the movie kind of carries over into that IRL performance even though they clearly like each other. I just, I can't, I like the idea of the Brendan and Colin show just carrying on for months and months. Richard Lawson: Expect it will. Katey Rich: Uh, well, Richard, you said there were other people at that Banshees event too. Uh, not connected with the movie who, you know, maybe are having so much fun they can't help working the room too. Richard Lawson: Yeah they let in a- a competitor in Judd Hirsch from The Fabelmans, he was there. And I talked to him briefly and he was very, again, effusive about Tony Kushner's writing, Steven Spielberg's direction, he was just... He, I mean he's only in the movie for a couple scenes, but they're very impactful scenes. And I was just some stranger who introduced himself and he was just like right in it, ready to talk about it, like, um, so that was fun. And then mingling in the crowd in a very like non-showy look at me way at all, just like could have walked by her and not noticed, uh, unless someone elbowed you and said, "That's Taylor Swift." Which is what happened with me. Katey Rich: [laughs] Richard Lawson: Uh, but yeah, Taylor Swift was there talking mostly to kind of what looked to be older potentially academy types, I don't know. And it reminded me that she is on the campaign as well for her- her short film which is, you know, depending on who you ask kind of just a music video, but maybe not. Um, and obviously her song from Where the Crawdads Sing. So, uh, it was interesting to see her ina sort of more low key, I'm just part of this whole season kind of thing where it was not at all a party about Taylor Swift it was, you know, she just happened to be there to mingle which, um, was interesting to see. Katey Rich: Well, Richard, you remind me, um, that Taylor Swift is not just in the hunt for her short film All Too Well where she would be nominated as a director, but in best original song again. Um, which is an area she's been, she has been in contention for a few times and never been nominated and I think it makes us all wonder if the academy's like, oh, you're a global pop star, you don't need an Oscar on top of it. But she's got her song from Where the Crawdads Sing, which I have seen. Richard, I don't know if you're the only one of us who has seen it. Um, but that movie's a reasonable box office hit and as I was going through the competition for the original song category which is fascinating as always, it made me wonder if, um, if we're underestimating her competition there too. Richard Lawson: I think one potential fly in its ointment, let's say, is that it's kind of a downbeat song, you know? Katey Rich: Mm-hmm. Richard Lawson: Like it's sort of simple folksy kind of pensive, you know. And you compare, you put that next to Lady Gaga flying into the fucking stratosphere and it's just like, I don't know if there's really like any comparison there in terms of like bombast and like big cinematic feeling. Um, but, you know, small songs have won in the past. It's rare, but like I don't know. You kind of have to think like, okay, this is fine Taylor, but like you need, you need, just need to do the Bond song or something. You know? Katey Rich: Yeah. Richard Lawson: Um, which would be interesting. Uh, so I don't know. I, weirdly I feel like her better shot is in the short category than the original song because there's Gaga just kind of, I think sitting there perhaps waiting to win. Katey Rich: Yeah. I think, uh, any look at this category you kind of see her just like a- astride it like a colossus. You know, Top Gun, as an overall competitor I think we go back and forth on how strong it's gonna be in things like best picture, or beyond the crafts. But, you know, Gaga already has an Oscar, she's, in this exact category. And she's jumping right into it. But also I think we forget she's going directly up against the reigning best original song champions, Billie Eilish and Finneas who wrote the- the incredible song from Turning Red. Do you guys remember the boy band's song- Richard Lawson: Yes. Katey Rich: ... that's like central to the plot of Turning Red? Richard Lawson: It's excellent. Katey Rich: It's such a good song. David Canfield: I haven't seen White Noise and- Katey Rich: Yes. David Canfield: ... speaking of songs that prominently figure into, you know, the best parts of a movie which is pretty rare for this category. The- the end credits of White Noise are quite pivotal I think to the experience of the movie and, uh, James Murphy, LCD Sound System has a sound that plays over the really terrific final sequence that I think really makes it. And it's the perfect example of a movie where you're going to sit through the end credit song because the credits are interesting. And it kind of leaves you on a high. So I feel like that will have pretty good traction here, even if the movie doesn't otherwise. Richard Lawson: And is a usage of a best original song contender that is distinct from some, you know, like- like the- the- the Billie Eilish, the singing, Turning Red stuff like that is diegetic to the movie. But like this is sort of half there and then Taylor swift is kind of, kind of an end credit song. And Gaga's is used toward the end of the movie. Like I think that all of these songs are being employed in different ways which makes it sort of an exciting race compared to some years. David Canfield: Totally. Katey Rich: Yeah. The one that I'm really intrigued by is a movie that's also on Netflix but not a Netflix movie, is RRR. Which we talked about in terms of the international features race, 'cause it was an India submission. But its distributor, Variance Films has, um, I recently saw Genumato on Twitter tweet at like full FYC slate for that movie, um, including Naatu Naatu, which if you haven't seen RRR, like- like I haven't you've probably seen the gif of the two guys dancing and like incredible sync. It's like, um, like Moses Supposes from Singing in the Rain. Like really incredible dancing and the- the whole sequence, it goes with it, you can watch it on YouTube, is a blast. I mean I, it's hard for me to tell how widespread the love for RRR is. I feel like a lot of really smart film people I know have seen it, but I don't know what it is beyond that. But I think if people watch the sequence they would vote for it, which I guess is always the question in this category. But the reason I insisted on us talking about this, is because I saw Lyle Lyle Crocodile over the weekend. Um, Richard, I believe you had a celebrity sighting of Lyle, uh, out on the campaign trail this weekend too. But, um, he's not the one who wrote the song so we don't have to worry about him, right? Richard Lawson: No, yeah. He was a mess at the party, it was really sad to see actually, um- Katey Rich: Fame- fame is tough. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Katey Rich: Um, but and so Sean Mendez is the voice of Lyle. But actually it has original songs from, um, Pasek and Paul, the, uh, impresarios behind Dear Even Hansen and also LaLa Land. And the- the songs are just really great. They've been stuck in my head for days, uh, because my children insist on listening to them as well. And I, like it was a box office like, it was kind of soft. Like I don't know if it's gonna be some kind of runaway hit. But I feel like Pasek and Paul are pretty formidable, so if you get the chance to see Javier Bardem dancing on stage at the Oscars with someone in a crocodile suit, I think you should take it. Would be my recommendation to the academy. Richard Lawson: But is he really gonna do that again? Katey Rich: [laughs] Richard Lawson: I mean I feel like that's so played out at this point with him. Katey Rich: I know. It's- it's only like the last five Oscars, right? Richard Lawson: Yeah. Katey Rich: And then one last thing I did wanna flag is that there is a song, there's a couple original songs from Wakanda Forever. We don't know the extent of them, you know, the, um, soundtrack for Black Panther was huge hit and then Kendrick Lamar got an Oscar nomination for All the Stars from Black Panther. So there is a song called A Body A Coffin by an artists names Amaarae, uh, that you can listen to now. It's good, it kind of reminds me of All the Stars and kind of the energy of it. Um, so I don't even know if that's the one to single out from this. But I would imagine we'll see Wakanda Forever in the hunt there too. Do any of you guys feel like you have a strong rooted interest in anyone at this point? Rebecca Ford: Well I do wanna flag that I assume Diane Warren will be back in this race for a movie- Katey Rich: You never know. Richard Lawson: What is the movie? Rebecca Ford: I don't know. Richard Lawson: What is the movie? Rebecca Ford: I haven't figured it out. Katey Rich: There's some movie called- Rebecca Ford: But it's probably something. Katey Rich: ... Tell it Like a Woman that apparently came out or is coming. It, like last year there's a movie that no one has seen but I think she wrote a song for. Richard Lawson: And the branch will nominate her even- Katey Rich: Yeah. Richard Lawson: [laughs] Katey Rich: Even though she's getting her honorary Oscar this year. Rebecca Ford: Which can only boost her chances I feel like of getting... I mean it, there hasn't been a year where she hasn't been nominated in recent history. So let's just, I mean maybe she doesn't even have to have a song. It'll just say her name and people will put a check mark next to it. Richard Lawson: It's not called Tell it Like a Woman, Rebecca, it's called Women Talking. Rebecca Ford: [laughs] Richard Lawson: You saw it at Telluride. Rebecca Ford: Um, I don't know much about this film but I feel like maybe that's, I see announcements that she wrote an original song for it. So if it's on the ballot, don't be surprised. David Canfield: So this is your rooting interest, Rebecca, for Diane Warren to maintain her streak? Rebecca Ford: Yes. Richard Lawson: At this point are they making movies to house the Diane Warren nominated songs? Katey Rich: It's not the worst strategy. Richard Lawson: How does she choose the movie? Because it is true that it's increasingly unheard of titles. And she just happens to be on them and she happens to be nominated for them. Katey Rich: Yeah. Richard Lawson: Oh so this movie is kind of I think like an anthology kind of thing. With various directors including Catherine Hardwicke and Taraji P. Henson. Katey Rich: Sure. Richard Lawson: Marsha Gay Hardon, Cara Delevinge Eva Longoria, David Canfield: This isn't real. Richard Lawson: ... Pauletta Washington is in it. Jennifer Hudson's in it. Um, all right. Well that sounds that- that fits the bill, I think. That's a, that's a legit movie, you know. She- David Canfield: Yeah. Richard Lawson: She could get in for that. David Canfield: That's interesting. I- I'm reluctant to talk about Bros anymore in this podcast. Katey Rich: I was also going to reluctantly bring up Bros but I'm glad you did. David Canfield: It's a really special, I think, original song for this kind of movie. And it's very tied in with the big gesture which is intrinsic to this movie's rom com DNA. And it's really well written and funny. And so I hope that somehow stays in the conversation. Katey Rich: Yeah this category is- is always gonna break your heart at some point. And I- I fear that Bros will be the one. But you never know, they might break my heart in a new surprising way instead. Richard Lawson: I guess Brendan Gleeson technically does have an original song in Banshees of Inisherin. I believe he does. Katey Rich: Those songs are a blast too. Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah. I don't know that seems a stretch. Katey Rich: My favorite Oscar stat for I think four years running was that people, for the first, Mary J. Blige was the first person to be nominated for song and acting in the same year. And then like three more people followed in her footsteps after that. Richard Lawson: Yup. Katey Rich: Um, and we broke the streak last year but it's never too late to- to come back. Richard Lawson: It was Gaga and then Joaquin Phoenix for Joke, right? Katey Rich: Yes. Yeah. He- he- he actually wrote that, um, the Gary Glitter song that he dances down the steps to. All right well let's wrap things up by talking about best director which I- I just keep turning over in my head, the category in my head because I can't figure out what I think is going to happen here. Um, we've talked ad nauseum about the Fabelmans, we don't be done talking about the Fabelmans for a while I don't think. But I think you know, we're all looking at Steven Spielberg and saying is this the year that he gets a highly, highly deserved second best director Oscar. Um, to the point that when I was talking about Killers of the Flower Moon not coming out this year, I was like what is Scorsese was just like, eh, I'm not gonna get in his way. Like they seem collegial. Like I, it's not impossible for me to imagine. Um, but David, do you wanna just run down like is Steven Spielberg at the top in your imagination, and then who's coming in after him? David Canfield: He- he is. And it, to an extent this conversation revolves around who you think are the overall front runners right now as director tends to, tends to run. Of course Sean Hadar was not nominated for CODA last year, it can happen. But it's usually the top five or so best picture contenders. Um, with some, with a, with a Drive my Car thrown in, maybe. Katey Rich: Yeah. David Canfield: Uh, but this year Spielberg feels like he's at the top. I think if you're thinking about where the director's branch tends to lean, Todd Field feels very strong for Tar because it is an arty movie that will be a strong player and it's- it's a very complete, uh, and I think demanding vision that they will embrace. It feels likely to me that Martin McDonagh will finally get his first best director nomination for Banshees, just given how strong it is overall. Katey Rich: Isn't it weird that he's never been nominated for best director? Rebecca Ford: So insane. David Canfield: Well that was, that was really one of the big signs that Three Billboards wasn't the front runner that year. Rebecca Ford: Yeah. David Canfield: Because Guillermo del Toro was winning, was definitely winning director for Shape of Water regardless. And when McDonagh couldn't even crack that five it was, it was a warning sign for that movie. Um, which bared out. Um, and then, and then Sarah Polley is one I'm, and this is, this gets to your point about this category being weird. On the one hand that movie feels like one where it could do very well, like a CODA. Or, you know, this movie's not Greenbook, but like a Greenbook, you know, the academy really embraces but that the directors branch just does not go for. Katey Rich: Mm-hmm. David Canfield: It is mostly a single setting, you know, they really love The Father for example. That was not nominated for directing despite, I think being really, having really innovative filmmaking and interesting aesthetic choices. This movie has been hit for its cinematography. So she might face a bit of an uphill climb despite the movie being a really strong overall contender. My instinct is that she will end up cracking the five anyway 'cause I think it's a really strong vision and it's such a big moment for her. And I think that- that could carry her through. And then it just depends on who you think the fifth is. We haven't seen Babylon, Gina Prince-Bythewood for the Woman King is interesting and there's lots of international [inaudible 00:31:34] that you cannot forget about, of course. Katey Rich: Yeah I was gonna ask if we think Ruben Ostlund with Triangle of Sadness is in that poll position if we assume that there's going to be a Drive My Car every year in the best director category, is he the one? Richard Lawson: It feels like a good bet, but he also, when the movie came out, Triangle of Sadness, it did get some pretty high profile negative reviews. Um- Katey Rich: Yes. Richard Lawson: Like the New York Times, it got like really took it to task, you know. And that was interesting to see given like that movie had pretty much enjoyed, it was mostly positive in Cannes, it obviously won the big prize there. It- it's been kind of riding high-ish. And now it feels a little bit lower. I don't know that that really matters to the director's branch or whatever. But like I think that movie's profile all of a sudden feels a little more dinged up than- than I thought it would. David Canfield: I think the weird one about that movie is it's- it's more of an audience favorite which is not where the director's branch leans, typically. Katey Rich: Mm-hmm. David Canfield: So that- that's its challenge. Uh, 'cause it did quite well in a, in a limited release over the weekend which was nice to see, along with Tar. I think Park Chan-Wook is definitely in that conversation for Decision to Leave. Uh, he is in that category maybe of a Thomas Winterburg or a Paul Pablokaski, who's long respected director by, you know, the branch, um, who just hasn't found his way into that kind of more mainstream academy recognition. But this movie seems to be finding a lot of love and it's- it's a really entertaining and interesting movie, but with a lot of style. So I could see him finding a lot of support. Katey Rich: Um, well and we haven't talked about, uh, Inarritu, a two time best director winner who has the, uh, Mexico submission for international feature and Bardo also obviously a big Netflix player. Um, it seems pretty foolish to rule him out. Rebecca Ford: And I do hope the Daniels remain a part of the conversation for Everything Everywhere All at Once. I- I was looking back and realized like director pairs being nominated- Richard Lawson: I know. Rebecca Ford: ... is very unusual. You have the Cohen brothers but other than that, it- it just doesn't seem to happen. And even thinking about it is weird. Katey Rich: I think that like, I feel like I remember the Cohen's being credited like just for Jewel for a long time because like the DGA was rude about it. Um, and I don't know if they like broke through and made it more possible. But I- I think there's- David Canfield: They did change it eventually. Katey Rich: Yeah. Rebecca Ford: Yeah I think for Oscar they can, they can be nominated as a pair. And they do have the name, the Daniels, which I feel like will make it less confusing for people. But like- Katey Rich: The Cohens the Daniels. Rebecca Ford: But, um, but yeah it's just so rare I think that actually creates a more difficult climb for them. David Canfield: I- I also think that the movie having a more commercial appeal could hurt it in this category. As we saw with Denis Villeneuve last year. They can be weirdly punishing of populous choices. Rebecca Ford: How care you movie be liked any everyone. Katey Rich: [laughs] Richard Lawson: To see that movie you're like, how the hell did any of this get put together, you know? It's so intricate and, you know, the producer Jonathan Wong was talked about like how, yeah, it was. It was a lot of moving plates to keep spinning and they had very little budget. Jamie Lee Curtis explained like how the location where the movie was filmed and how they kept, you know, switching out sets but they were, it was the same space but they would just redress it, you know, to fit a different scene. And like, it felt, you know, it sounded like it was this scrappy accomplishment that then went on to get, you know, all, to make all this money. And- and that, you know, I guess you could see that from a directing perspective and be like, wow they pulled it off. But that to me feels more like a producing, you know- David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Richard Lawson: ... kind of effort which is why like I feel like Everything Everywhere feels, at this point, kind of a lock for best picture if they keep talking about it to the right audiences this way. Like in a, with humility but also like yeah, it was, we- we pulled off something big. Um, but yeah, maybe the director thing is too specific, uh, whereas the whole production itself is the thing that might, people will wanna award. Katey Rich: One of the- the commercial side of things too, I keep wondering about Ryan Coogler and Wakanda Forever. Um, you know, he famously turned down the chance to be in the academy, but he still seems like someone who academy members and maybe especially the director's branch would want to embrace and count as one of their own. So if that movie hits big, you know, I think it maybe even more so than with the first one which was such a surprise phenomenon in some ways. He might, he might find his way in there. David Canfield: He's someone who just hasn't missed, you know. Katey Rich: Yeah. David Canfield: He makes great movies over and over again. No matter, you know, whether he's being underestimated or making a really small indie. So if he will at some point feel overdue for a directing nomination. Katey Rich: Yes. David Canfield: And speaking of blockbusters, there's also a young man names James Cameron. Katey Rich: Mm-hmm. My personal friend. David Canfield: Who will be back in this race. It's hard to see those guys defining it because just of where the branch has gone the last few years. But also those movies feel like undeniable question marks in a way that they could shake up everything, uh, including this category. Katey Rich: Well one more big movie I wanted to ask about was Baz Luhrmann and Elvis. You know, he had this huge Oscar hit with Moulin Rouge but it didn't get a best director nomination. So, you know, I think Elvis is an uphill climb as being earlier in the year. But it's such a directorial vision, like if we're talking about these guys being snobs. Then maybe that's the way, the way that they go on with someone who's kind of a reliable author at this point? Richard Lawson: I recapped that ceremony, the Moulin Rouge ceremony that, um, Baz Luhrmann didn't get nominated in. And I think it was Whoopi Goldberg as the host who said, Moulin Rouge does this, does this, does this. And apparently all without a director. Katey Rich: [laughs] Richard Lawson: And the audience kind of like clapped, jeered, like laughed kind of thing. And so it was a scandal then. Um, and yeah, Elvis is kind of that like other summer hit that like people do talk about but it doesn't quite get, I mean it- it didn't make the money that Maverick did. But like, you know, it was a big movie and I think also I keep forgetting to factor Austin Butler into these conversations. So yeah. Katey Rich: Yeah. Richard Lawson: We shouldn't count Elvis out. David Canfield: Yeah. I would be shocked if he was nominated here, but that is my personal opinion. Katey Rich: Weird things happen, you never know. David Canfield: Weird things happen. But thinking about, um, the conversations around this category over the last few years, the fact that it is always, it always becomes a thing when there is risk of a woman not being nominated. Katey Rich: Uh-huh. David Canfield: And I think Sarah Polley is the obviously, likeliest person to be nominated there but, you know, you have to also pay attention to that kind of conversation and who could pop up as, especially someone like Gina who has helmed the box office hit that critics embraced that is a real vision and someone who is very, has been a force in the industry for a long time and an underestimated one at that. So those kinds of narratives can also take a kind of hold. Katey Rich: Uh, well to circle back to where we started, do you see anyone with a clear path to winning? Acknowledging that we don't know anything, and anything could change other than Steven Spielberg. Who's gonna challenge him here? Rebecca Ford: Nobody. That's it. We're done guys, let's just call it a day. Katey Rich: [laughs] David Canfield: You know, if there's another movie that emerges as a best picture front runner and the director is a strong part of that nomination's grouping, then you'd have to consider them a challenger. But until that point, that happens, yeah I don't see anybody. Katey Rich: That does it for today's show. We'll be back next week. Find us on Twitter @hwd or on our own. I am @kateyrich and Richard? Richard Lawson: Rilas. Katey Rich: And David? David Canfield: Davidcanfield97. Katey Rich: And Rebecca. Rebecca Ford: Beccamford. Katey Rich: Our editor and producer is Brett Fuges, and this week's award for the best preview of what Little Gold MEn's overall energy is gonna be around mid-February, goes to Richard Lawson. Richard Lawson: We're so like in love with each other kind of energy.