Josh Wigler: Hello and welcome back to _Still Watching_, the television podcast from Vanity Fair. We cover entire seasons of the hottest shows of television, and right now, we are diving deep into _House of the Dragon_, the _Game of Thrones_ prequel series on HBO. I'm Josh Wigler, and to discuss _House of the Dragon_, episode seven, sailing with me for Driftmark, it's Richard Lawson. Richard, how you doing?

Richard Lawson: Uh, good, I have both eyes intact so far-

Josh Wigler: [laughs]

Richard Lawson: ... so, you know, that's all you can for really.

Josh Wigler: You know what, once upon a time, uh, eye stuff was my top phobia, and then I got-

Richard Lawson: Sure.

Josh Wigler: ... LASIK earlier this year, and I'm invincible now. Uh, what happened-

Richard Lawson: [laughs] Right.

Josh Wigler: ... to poor Aemond, it-

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: ... didn't even bother me. I was good.

Richard Lawson: And you can see crimes before they happen, right? That's part of-

Josh Wigler: Yes, that's how this works.

Richard Lawson: ... LASIK?

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, I'm a precog now. It's pretty good stuff. Richard, Driftmark, that's the episode that we are talking about today, episode seven of _House of the Dragon_. It's a big one. This is a really, really-

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... big episode of the show.

Richard Lawson: It's really big in a way that I didn't see coming at all because so much of the episode is, uh- uh, which I liked, is a lot of talking and sort of emotion and like characters kind of reconnecting with one another or pushing further apart from one another. I said, "Okay, this is just gonna be one of those episodes that like, not filler, but, but transitional," you know?

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard Lawson: Uh, and then it was like, "Oh, no, no, no major, [laughs] major things are gonna happen-

Josh Wigler: Humongous event, yeah.

Richard Lawson: ... uh, involving children, but of course, involving their parents," and it, you know, in a way that felt very credible to like, you have little kids running around, but like they have life and death, [laughs] you know kind of hanging around them at all times because of who they are. And I thought that was really tensely, interestingly, uh, kind of made manifest in this episode.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, I thought that it was, uh, it was, it was barely fair- very fairly rendered that all of these children would be running around Driftmark without any parental supervision. It just felt very fair to the fact that these kids don't exist because their parents wanted to have kids, you know?

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: They're- they are fuel to the fire, uh, and so who's watching the kids? Ser Criston Cole certainly isn't. They are not, uh ... They have no eyes on them, and as a result, Aemond is down one eye. That's really big. This is a really big moment from Fire & Blood, the George R.R. Martin book, uh, that this is based on that I was really anticipating the Vhagar, claiming Vhagar is just such a huge scene, and beyond, um. But there's also some really interesting book stuff to talk about that I couldn't have seen coming. Richard, this one ends with a huge swerve for the book-reading crowd with-

Richard Lawson: Hm.

Josh Wigler: ... this final scene with Laenor's death in quotation marks. Um, this is a huge, huge twist, a huge swing away from, from Martin's material. So I think that the, the book reading crowd is probably lit having watched this episode.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, I wondered about that because that would suggest something of a happier ending for a character who like normally in Martinland does not have that kind of happy [laughs] ending. So I don't know that Laenor is out, you know, for the count, but like, you know, you expect the most brutal thing to happen, and then at the very end of the episode, they're like, "Well, no, actually." And so that did feel to me maybe like an invention for the show.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. There were a few ways in which they, they played with us in that final, uh-

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... that final sequence. Uh, there's a lot of different interpretations of in the book what happens to, to Laenor, though there seems to be no question that Laenor is killed, uh, in this manner by Qarl, uh, but the questions are about who did it, who ordered the hit. Uh, Daemon is a popular candidate. Nowhere does Rhaenyra Targeryen's name appear on the list of culprits. So there's this moment for me, Richard, watching the end of the episode being like, "Oh my God, they're gonna have Rhaenyra be the one who shot called this? This is ... We're gonna, we're gonna have a whole lot of discourse [laughs] coming outta this episode." Uh, and then there's this other twist at the end where, no, he's alive. They've, uh-

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... they've faked his death. They have smuggled him out. They've cleared the way for Daemon to marry Rhaenyra. And yeah, as far as it goes in Westeros, right now at least, Richard, this is like the happiest ending any-

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... character has received.

Richard Lawson: Especially given the scene that where, where a- a- a- a penitent Laenor comes to her and is like, "I've failed. Um, I couldn't protect my sister. I'm not protecting you and our children. I'm gonna give up my, you know, merry, gay life on the sea and just be here for you." And she hears that and seems to absorb it, but then at the end, you're like, "Oh, no, she gave him the other option."

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard Lawson: 'Cause he said, "I can't do both. I can't ... You know, I can't do what we said we would when we were kids that we would have our own little side pieces [laughs] and then, but still be together." And I think that, like, it's such an interesting character development for Rhaenyra where it's like she did the kind thing but also the strategic thing. You know, I think she would get my jury vote. Sorry, I'm still binging Survivor.

Josh Wigler: Listen, I'm here for it. [laughs] I'm here for your journey.

Richard Lawson: [laughs]

Josh Wigler: Uh, I- I- I really liked it. I th- I thought that it worked really well. I think it's gonna be controversial with the book readers for sure, but I'm curious to get their takes too. We would love to hear from you, stillwatchingpod@gmail.com. That's our email address if you've got any feedback that you wanna send in for the podcast. That's stillwatchingpod@gmail.com.

I'm excited. Laenor's a huge wildcard on the board now. We'll talk it through as we get deeper into the episode. We'll recap it scene by scene as we always do here on _Still Watching_ with _House of the Dragon_. But first, we'll take a quick moment for this break. We will be back on the other side. Stay tuned.

All right, Richard, let's talk through Driftmark. Do we need to get out ahead of this? This isn't a bottle episode. Uh, this is a ship in a bottle episode maybe.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Uh, but, uh, you know, I, the- the fact that it's all contained in this one location does give it some sense of individuality from the rest of the episodes that have preceded it up to this point. I think maybe one of my takes coming out of this, I'd be curious for yours is, I feel like this is one of the clearest episodes of _House of the Dragon_ so far. Just feels like it really knows what it is and what it wants to be and having it in this one central location with all parties descending upon one space really adds to that, uh, that idea.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, this feels in- in some ways like the show tapping into its, uh, sibling series, uh, Succession, where each episode of that show usually is like in a different location-

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard Lawson: ... and with characters all kind of occupying something of the same space, negotiating something, you know. And- and this episode, ah- certainly at the beginning when they're all at the funeral for Laena and, uh, you know, there are charged looks across the crowd, you know, and people kind of having little side conversations, um. I thought that was so well balanced and- and, um, you know, was a testament to like what we talked about last week, which was like I'm glad we've known some of these characters since they were basically kids because it just gives it that much more depth when, when you see them interacting as now very, very fraught, uh, adults.

Josh Wigler: To the Succession of it all, should we have called this one too much funeral?

Richard Lawson: [laughs] Probably, yeah.

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: I think that might've worked. Um, we do begin with the funeral of Lady Laena. This is the occasion why everybody is here. She is being committed to the eternal waters, uh, and we see all of these various people have gathered here from, from all sides of the aisle. Obviously, Daemon and his children with Laena are both here, both, uh, Baela and Rhaena are- are here with him. We see that Rhaenyra and her children are here as well, um, although at least Jace, uh, her oldest son, wishes that they were at Harrenhal, uh, mourning, uh, the loss of his birth father. He should not be talking about this is what-

Richard Lawson: No.

Josh Wigler: ... Rhaenyra is going to be telling him in just a few moments. And we also see that the king's side of the equation, Alicent, their kids together, are here with, I thought, a- a really, uh, just very casual reveal that not only is Otto Hightower back in the mix, Richard, he's back, and he is the Hand of the King. You see the pin-

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... on his chest, and, uh, we don't need to know anything else. We're just back to, you know, we're all out of ideas, I guess. Let's just get the old hand back in business.

Richard Lawson: It feels like a very Viserys move, you know. [laughs] He- he doesn't really stick to his, his convictions. Well, he does some of them, but like, you know, it makes sense that he'd be like, "No, just bring him back. It's fine, it's fine. You know, I don't wanna have to think about someone else."

Josh Wigler: No. Um, so there's this, uh, this- this funeral passage that is, uh, being performed by Vaemond Velaryon. He is, uh, the Sea Snake's brother. We saw him having some friction with Corlys back during the Stepstones War, and here he is really giving a look at Rhaenyra's family and looking specifically at the- at the children as he's saying, "Salt courses through Velaryon blood. Ours runs thick, ours runs true, and ours must never thin."

And he's just locked eyes on that corner, uh, of the- of the- of the area. And this is gonna be a big recurring theme throughout the episode, obviously. It's just like setting up really early on where we are going with the big claim of these children being bastards and what that might mean for the realm and certainly what it means for the friction within the family.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, and, you know, there's a part of me that's wondering like, "Okay, well, you know, this is such a TV conceit. Like obviously, this would've been talked ... Why is it just being spoken about now?" But I think enough has kind of changed in these people's world that all of a sudden it feels like, you know, "Let's just like be hon- ... Let's be out in the open with all of these things that we've known." I- I- I get ... I feel the sense of like why this is happening in the present tense of the show rather than it feeling like a dramatic kind of, you know, gimmick or device or something, like-

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: ... something has changed in this family, this community that now makes it sort of okay to be like, "Those are definitely not his kids."

Josh Wigler: Yeah. I think that there's, uh, there's a lot of really great character work all throughout this episode, but this scene specifically, uh, Daemon, you know, sort of just laughs when he hears Vaemond saying all of this stuff 'cause he knows, uh, and he can, he can barely contain the fact that "We're at my wife's funeral, and we're already getting into this," uh, you know. It's just like this sort of Daniel Craig Road to Perdition, it's also f-ing hysterical, uh, vibe to him in this moment.

Um, Aegon looks so bored. This person who half of the realm thinks should be the King of the Seven Kingdoms could not look less enthused to be here, uh, at the, at the funeral. Poor Jace is so sad because his father is gone, and Laenor is looking really, really wrecked as well. For somebody who is gonna have such an important role in the final moments of this episode, Richard, I think the absence of Laenor throughout a lot of this is a big part of the point.

Richard Lawson: Oh yeah, I mean, he's obviously directly grieving his sister, but also just like, "What is this life I'm stuck in? Is this gonna keep happening?" It's ... I- I think that we saw that s- a similar sentiment in Viserys where he's just like, "We ... Can we please just stop all of this like scrambling and fighting and all that?" And I think that Laenor is feeling something akin to that, you know-

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: ... uh, especially 'cause he's living this really big, well, two kind of big lies about his kids and about his sexuality. And, um, you feel for you. You do, and that's why by the end, you're like, "Oh my God, she's gon- ... She's really that ruthless." And then she kind of isn't, so-

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: ... I appreciated that. And I think this, this episode is very humane to Laenor while- while also noticing his, uh, his poor strategy, let's say.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Um, so after the service is, what is this? Is this ... It's not cocktail hour. Uh, I don't know that you have cocktail at a funeral. [laughs] It's been a minute, I guess, since I've been to a funeral. Uh, but there is this- this period of all these people talking to each other, and there's lots of various conversations, Richard, that, uh, that we're gonna be crawling through, uh. So a lot of different places that we can, we can start.

Um, we begin with Rhaenyra and Jace. He is the one saying, uh ... She's trying to tell him, "Go to your cousins. They need you right now." He's saying that "We have an equal claim to sympathy. We should be in Harrenhal," and Rhaenyra really instills in him, "It's not appropriate to say that. We have to hold tight. Do you understand what I am trying to tell you?"

Richard Lawson: Yeah, yet again, you know, uh, s- some people just really need to- [laughs] to hear these truths because it's now getting very, very serious. And I think maybe this is the real turning point where everyone starts to see exactly how high the stakes are, adult and children alike.

Josh Wigler: Uh, more with the children, this is with Aemond and Aegon. They are watching from sort of the outskirts as their sister, Helaena, is once again playing with bugs, uh, playing with spiders. And through the dialogue, we are learning that it seems that Aegon and Helaena, a brother and sister in the Targaryen tradition are being betrothed to one another. And Aegon is not thrilled about it.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, uh, but not really because it's his sister. [laughs]

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard Lawson: It's just about her [laughs] specifically.

Josh Wigler: Yes.

Richard Lawson: Uh, which, you know, I guess is a, yet another window into the Targaryen mindset. Um, yeah, I'm curious what they're gonna do with this Helaena character because we- we've seen this bug stuff, and I don't know if that's just like a little character detail they're throwing in just to, I don't know, add a little texture, or if there's something about her, her lonerness, her- her curiosity about things, uh, like this, that is gonna come to bear in the future.

Josh Wigler: Well, I think we can already turn the page back to last week's episode and talk about something that really stood out to me, uh, because it happens in this episode. Aemond is with Alicent and with Helaena after the "pink dread" incident, the flying pig. Uh, and he's bemoaning the fact that he does not have dragon. And Alicent says to Aemond, "You'll have a dragon someday," and Helaena, as an aside, almost to herself says, "He'll have to close an eye." Um-

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: ... so she may be a Targaryen Dreamer, I think is the insinuation there. Uh, she-

Richard Lawson: Uh-huh.

Josh Wigler: ... may have this gift that Viserys has spoken about.

Richard Lawson: Right, have we met another Targaryen who has that, or is that just kinda something to talk about in the like, the lore?

Josh Wigler: Um, not confirmed on the show, uh, that comes to mind for me. Um, I think that we-

Richard Lawson: Okay. And- and there wasn't in, in _Game of Thrones_, right?

Josh Wigler: No, I don't think ... Uh, well, Daenerys, it's possible, right? Because-

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: ... she does have that House of the Undying sequence at the end of season two, and she sees-

Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: ... uh, Snow in the Red Keep, which we'll see again as another image again in the series finale of _Game of Thrones_ as it's like nuclear ash, uh, you know, nuclear winter in, in King's Landing. So there's an argument for Daenerys, I think, um-

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... but, uh, first one on Fire & Blood or in, on _House of the Dragon_ rather, uh, as it currently stands. So this is interesting, I think, uh-

Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... I think Helaena is an important character to be looking at.

Richard Lawson: Okay, cool.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, we wanna pay attention to what she's got going on. Um, we see Criston. He's with Alicent and in the periphery is Larys, uh, Larys clubfoot. He is just lurking through much of this episode. Richard, he's just waiting to be called on. You know, he's got his hand in the air the entire time. Alicent's just giving her lecture to the class and trying as hard as she can to not have to call on the one person who's holding his hand. That's Larys right now. He wants to be acknowledged for what he has done to pave the way for Otto to become Hand of the King.

Richard Lawson: And he also, I think, wants to in some way assert to Alicent, like what, "I know that you didn't expressly ask for that to happen to my family, but like I could very easily say that you did."

Josh Wigler: Yes.

Richard Lawson: You know, and- and he has power over her despite her outranking him significantly, you know, um, and I think that's an interesting tension that also complicates the fact that Alicent is, you know, very secretly, um, sh- you know, sort of guilt ridden toward Rhaenyra about what she did, uh, or- or, you know, let happen or whatever to- to Harwin and his father, um. But then later, you know, that- that- that guilt turns right back to anger.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Um, so we are going to see, uh, Lord Corlys with Luke, uh, and he's trying to tell Luke, "Well, I'm glad you're here at Driftmark. Look around, uh, your brother is going to be the King of Westeros someday, but you'll be Lord of the Tides. That's a pretty cool job. Driftmark's great." And Luke doesn't want it. He wants nothing to do with it, and I thought that the reasons why were very sad but also very sweet in a way. He tells the Sea Snake, "If I'm the Lord of Driftmark, it means everyone's dead."

Richard Lawson: Yeah. What a- what a thing to, to place on these children, like from the minute they're born, like all you talk about is like what you'll do o- once I, you know, [laughs] your parents are gone and your [laughs] whoever else is gone. Like it's, it's such a morbid, you know, thing. And I- I- I think, I'm glad that the show, especially in this episode, took time to be like, "How would this impact young people? How would it change the way they think about things?" And- and- and clearly, it leads to the fact that like these are, you know, tweens or younger who are wielding stones and [laughs] knives at each other.

Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm.

Richard Lawson: You know?

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: They- they are very serious kids because that's how they've been raised.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, um, I think it's especially sad, I think you're right, that we had those first five episodes that showed us Rhaenyra and Alicent as kids growing up in this world, and now here we are 10 years down the line into their adulthood, pushing into 30, and their [laughs] children are being given just about as much choice as they were given themselves. Uh, so-

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... there's, you know, really bitter, cruel irony to all of that.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, I mean, you know, hurt people, hurt people, cycles-

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: ... of abuse, you know, and I think you see that cycle also in- in the Rhaenyra-Daemon stuff. It's like, you know, he- he acknowledges that when they first had whatever it was, that she was a child.

Josh Wigler: "You were a child," yeah.

Richard Lawson: And, and- and now, but see Rhaenyra's still, you know, asking for it, uh, like, you know, like wants to be with him, and, you know, that is something that happened, occurs in the real world where people are sort of linked to their abusers, uh, for the rest of their lives. And it's, you know ... I- I- I'm glad that the show is at least kind of acknowledging that dynamic even if they're not yet a- anyway exploring it to its full extent.

Josh Wigler: I think, uh, you know, sort of similar and consistent with what we're talking about with, uh, the- the next generation specifically and- and how the old generation's conflicts are- are- are trickling down to them. There's this moment where, uh, Rhaenys comes and sort of bypasses Jace and just hugs her granddaughter. She's gonna make clear, uh, later on in this episode maybe why she feels closer to them than she does to Jace.

Um, but there's this moment when Jace is kind of alone, and he is not being consoled by anybody, and he at least knows that he has also just lost his father. That Aemond Targaryen, who is going to come to claim the dragon, Vhagar, he kind of just steps up and just looks at him and has a moment where he could say something, but he doesn't. And then he walks away.

I thought that that was, that was a really interesting look at these two kids and just the kids of these people, the kids of these parents of these royals who are feuding over the throne or feuding over power, just what could be done with a simple, "I'm sorry," uh, "I'm sorry for your loss. My condolences." And, uh, of course, like that responsibility should not be laid at the feet of these children. But I think that that moment, sort of being like squeezed out to these kids, uh, I think laid a lot of the themes of the episode, uh, out on its back.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah, you get the sense of like, you know, some- some sort of generational hope, like, okay, maybe the children will break some of the bad habits or bad cycles, but like, how- how could ... You know, it's so hard for anyone to extend any genuine empathy. It always has to be sort of careful and thought through and strategic and whatever, um. And if anyone else in the world, the kids should at least be able to just be kind of openly in, you know, w- w- with each other or friends and- and- and- and consoling or whatever. Uh, they shouldn't have to worry about all this stuff, and yet they do. So you kind of get the sense, like, this is never gonna break until it really breaks. And, uh-

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: ... maybe that's what this show is about. I don't know.

Josh Wigler: It's interesting to frame this with the conversation between Viserys and Daemon. Uh, it feels like it's been a very long time since these two have been around each other, since these two have occupied the same space, since they've had anything resembling a civil conversation, and Viserys is trying to be the bigger man here, uh, and say like, you know, "We've had our differences. Let them pass with the years. You have a place at my court if there's something you should need." Uh, and the last time he made a gesture like this, Richard, Daemon, uh, almost slaughtered an entire army. So I guess we should just be happy that he just walks off instead of goes out and tries to-

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: ... solo the Crab Feeder again.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, I, I'm- I'm curious to hear what you think about this 'cause I, ... This is the first episode where, 'cause we were wondering last week, okay, now that Daemon's whole storyline with Laena has sort of ended. He's c- coming back from Pentos, uh, at least temporarily, like what is his, where is his character gonna fit back in? And- and- and watching this episode, I think this is the first time I've really seen Daemon as like I don't think he really has a strategy yet, you know. And- and I think when ... The- the- that, maybe that's why he kinda walks away from his brother and- and- and doesn't, it doesn't turn into a big fight because I don't think Daemon knows which way he wants to move. Did you read it that way?

Josh Wigler: So I think the way that I'm reading Daemon, um, right now, and then the end of the episode kinda turns this on his head-

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... it's like, this is the guy who took his shot. You know, he, he-

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: ... had, he- he made some moves 10 years ago, uh, to potentially pivot himself towards the throne, to maybe angle himself towards this position of power. Um, and for a variety of reasons, it did not go the way that he wanted it to go, uh. You know, it didn't work out with Rhaenyra, and then his spot is blown up and King Viserys is, uh, you know, gonna have Daemon on his back, and he's gonna kick him out of his court. And Rhaenyra and Laenor get married, and there's no longer the path. And I think between that and whatever amount of happiness he was authentically able to find in his life with Laena and with his two kids away from Westeros, away from the game, I think it's like the, you know, this is not happening for me.

It's kinda similar to the Queen Who Never Was, uh, in some ways where Rhaenys is like, "I put that away a long time ago. You're the one who's focused on this. I know it's not happening. It's never gonna happen for me, and we're just endangering other people by continuing this foolish pursuit of something that I can never wear, this crown." Uh, and I think that there's like, uh, not quite as self-aware version of that happening with Daemon.

Richard Lawson: Well, yeah, and there's also the- the- the web exclusive that's, uh, Daemon and Laena's interview with Oprah in Montecito, when they-

Josh Wigler: Uh-huh.

Richard Lawson: ... s- since they've decided to leave the kingdom, you know?

Josh Wigler: Right, yes.

Richard Lawson: Uh, which people should watch 'cause it really does, you know, add a lot.

Josh Wigler: It tells you a lot. It tells you a lot.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Uh, very, very big, uh, very big [laughs] information revealed in that secret scene. Um, Rhaenyra is going to walk off after Daemon once Daemon, uh, walks off himself. Uh, there's moment with Otto and Daemon. I missed the lines that were exchanged between the two of them. The gist of it that I got is these guys still hate each other quite a bit. Uh, so if there was more to it than that, I don't know that I caught it, but I think that-

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: ... I probably caught just enough. Um, this was sad. Viserys, everybody's starting to go to bed. The sun's going, sun's getting real low, uh. Everybody's getting, getting tired, ready to go to sleep except for Aemond, who's sneaking away, and Daemon and Rhaenyra who are also sneaking away. And Viserys is going to, uh, be one of the first people to exit, and he turns to Alicent and he says, "I'm going to bed, Aemma." And it's awkward.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. [laughs]

Josh Wigler: [laughs] Yeah, that's awkward. That's tough.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. Yeah, uh, he starts with [inaudible 00:23:05]-

Josh Wigler: Viserys very much still living in that trauma, clearly.

Richard Lawson: Uh, clearly, and you really like ... I mean, look, the age difference between Alicent and Viserys has been palpably, uh, you know, present, uh, since the beginning of the show but like, you really feel it here where it's like now she's just married to like an old, like falling apart man, you know?

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard Lawson: And- and all of the little injustices of that. Like I'm sure that's, that's part of the equation in terms of why you're- you're like, "Why did she do what does toward the end of the episode," is like she's just been sitting on these sort of resentments and like slights and all this stuff for so long that, um, she needed to, to break free of it, I guess, for at le- if- if only for a second.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Uh, there was, uh, a really, uh, fun line, I thought. It was- it was- it was mean, but I thought that it was good between Daemon and Viserys of, uh, Viserys telling Daemon, "The gods can be cruel" as sort of his condolence. Daemon saying, "Yeah, they've been [laughs] especially cruel to you."

Richard Lawson: [laughs] Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Uh, you know-

Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... siblings, you know. You can get away with some stuff. Uh, so night falls, um. Otto is going to retrieve Aegon, who's just getting drunk in the corner. Qarl is doing the same thing for Laenor, and somewhere off in the distance, Vhagar, the oldest living dragon in the known world, is roaring and Aemond can hear it. And he slips off unnoticed. To be continued on Aemond Targaryen.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, I think that the- the Targaryen boy stuff in this episode obviously, uh, Aemond is the big, the big player in the episode, but I think the Aegon thing, this is ... We saw him, you know, uh, pleasuring himself in a window. You know, we got, we have so- some he being ... We saw him being a jerk in- in like down in the dragon pits. Um, but this episode is like, "Oh, he's really just kind of a mess." Like he, he's just maybe having a teenage rebellion. Maybe he's just kind of given up on, on trying to "play the game."

Uh, but I think that we learn a lot about him in this episode, along with Aemond, which, um, I'm- I'm sure will be, you know, de- further, further developed. But, um, yeah, he's, he just seems to be one of those like, bad, messy princes who, you know, [laughs] doesn't toe the family line at all.

Josh Wigler: A classic _Game of Thrones_ type, for sure.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, exactly.

Josh Wigler: Um, so we have this conversation between, uh, Rhaenys and Corlys, uh, in the wake of losing their daughter and- and where they stand with everything now. Uh, and there's, you know, a little bit of the blame game going around of "This is Daemon's fault. Our daughter wanted to come back here. He kept them in Pentos," uh. You know, the Sea Snake is trying to, "Their doctors are just as good as ours. Eh- we can't blame this on, on Daemon. It's an, it's an act of the gods." Uh, and Rhaenys suggests that "Perhaps then the gods have scorned us for our act of pride."

Um, and we're getting a, you know, a repetition of a conversation between them we have seen before where she has said, "You are the one who cares about this. I don't care about this anymore. All that you really care about, it's not even about justice for me, it's about your ambition, your desire for the throne-

Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: ... your own legacy." And finally, the Sea Snake kind of reacts honestly to this of, "Well what is life if not the pursuit of legacy?"

Richard Lawson: Right, right. Which like almost makes sense, but not necessarily in this context. Like it's not worth the death of pee- you know, putting people in such mortal risk all the time. And, um, I think it's interesting that, that Rhaenys is kind of almost like you could see her as a kind of mirror of Daemon in some ways where it's like these are people who are like, "No, we had our" ... As you said, "We shot our shot. It didn't work. Like, let's give up before this gets worse because we know it's gonna get worse."

And, um, it just feels like a big inflection point where s- some characters are like just about to s- kind of opt out in a way, um, because they see what's coming, and they know it's gonna be bad, uh. You know, the s- they're- they're turning away from the storm, you know, whatever. They're- they're-

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard Lawson: ... making that choice, um. But, you know, you just know that with the kind of momentum and inertia of this show that, that it's not gonna work. You know, whether they don't ... Whether or not they want to, they're gonna be dragged into it.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, they're too close to it at this point. Um, and Rhaenys-

Richard Lawson: We're too late to [inaudible 00:27:08]-

Josh Wigler: Yeah, yeah-

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... definitely. Rhaenys is gonna say that she, um, when, when all is said and done that she wants to Driftmark to pass through Laena's line. She wants it to go to Baela, uh, she is-

Richard Lawson: Which is a big move.

Josh Wigler: Yes.

Richard Lawson: So she's still kind of in the game. I mean, that's, that's a big thing.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, this is not insignificant. I mean, I think what she is saying to, to Corlys is like, she's like, "It's just us in here. You know, there's no one else in the room. Um, we can talk about this. Those kids, your grandchildren, are not Laenor's, uh, but your granddaughters are. And the, they are Laena's legacy." And the Sea Snake has, uh, this very, you know, George R.R. Martin-ing, you know, it, very like straight pulled from A Song of Ice and Fire it feels like, but I don't think it is actual dialogue from Fire & Blood. But he says, "History does not remember blood. It remembers names." Uh-

Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: ... and he pulls his hand away from his wife. So he's making it pretty clear what his intentions are.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, uh, it might be kind of a, like a, you- a- ahistorical, but it's my understanding that, you know, the Romanov family, like the, the czars of Russia, that actually that bloodline broke like generations before the Bolshevik Re- Revolution because-

Josh Wigler: Interesting.

Richard Lawson: ... one of the ki- the czars was so inbred that he was infertile, and so his wife like was impregnated by somebody else. And so like the Romanov line ended way before, but we still know that family name, you know? [laughs]

Josh Wigler: Right, right.

Richard Lawson: So I think that's kinda what the Sea Snake is saying. He's saying, "It doesn't really matter in like, in like the- the- the- the fullness of history." Like no one will really know who was the parent. It's just about like what was their last name.

Josh Wigler: Well, it- it mirrors what, uh, what Viserys was saying, uh, shortly before the big time jump when he was in the bath on the even of Rhaenyra and Laenor's wedding of "What, what songs will they sing of me a hundred years from now? Uh, will-

Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: ... they think of me as a good king?" This obsession with what they will say about me in the future when I've been done and gone for decades and decades and decades, this obsession that is leaving them in a, unable to, to live in this moment and to like take care of what's right in front of him.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah, couldn't be me, to be honest. [laughs]

Josh Wigler: [laughs]

Richard Lawson: I'm just not that ambitious, I guess.

Josh Wigler: I really just care about where am I getting my next, next slice of pizza, you know, uh-

Richard Lawson: Right, yeah, right.

Josh Wigler: ... you know?

Richard Lawson: [laughs] Exactly.

Josh Wigler: [laughs] One, one foot in front of the either.

Richard Lawson: Which is why we both live in New York is, is to-

Josh Wigler: [laughs] Yeah, I think that's right, yeah.

Richard Lawson: ... ensure proximity to that.

Josh Wigler: [laughs] Pretty sure. Um, so let's go with Rhaenyra with Daemon, uh, a very big scene between the two of them, uh, that much of the show has been building towards at this point, the consummation of, uh, of their relationship here, Richard, as, uh, much time has passed between these two. They have a lot to catch each other up on.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, I- I- I- it was interesting hearing R- Rhaenyra kinda lay it out so plainly about- about how like the Laenor situation isn't working out, you know?

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard Lawson: Um, like that felt refreshing 'cause I'm sure she has not been able to say that to anybody. I mean, I mean, obviously Harwin to some extent, but like, he's gone now. And you know, I- I- I- I, I'm- I'm still a little bit struggling with like how the show, like they recognized the fact that like r- when this first happened that Rhaenyra was, you know, not of consenting age by any means and certainly was manipulated into it. Um, so I ha- ...

I- I'm not sure how to really view the framing of these scenes with her and Daemon. I also don't really know how to read, uh, you know, 'cause at one point, Daemon was kind of using her strategically. And it's like, now, it feels different or is he still ... Like how cold are we supposed to be reading him here?

Josh Wigler: I think that that's a really good question, and I think that the show has left him very intentionally vague, uh, for us to, you know, connect the dots how we want to connect the dots. There was this, um, uh, this [laughs] actual deleted scene apparently from last week where he was seen hugging his children after the death of their mother, after the death of his wife. And that was excluded from the episode.

Richard Lawson: Hm.

Josh Wigler: And it feels like-

Richard Lawson: Interesting.

Josh Wigler: ... man, I kind of wanna like ... If you want me to feel like he's a human being, I kinda would love for you to give me a human moment from Daemon Targaryen, and it makes me feel like maybe you don't necessarily want me to feel that way. Maybe you wanna leave that choice to me, and you wanna hold all of that back so that I can make my decisions based on, um, sort of these neutral, uh, observations of, of Daemon and- and his behavior. I think-

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... for Rhaenyra, the question, the question is on my mind too of how much is this like, "I've, I've missed you, uncle. Let us, let us wed," uh, you know, which is gauche, um, or is it, is it strategic for her as well? Um, certainly by the end of it, the strategy is very clear. By the end of the episode, the two of them are talking about a final two deal, um, but how much is that like a marriage of convenience versus a Boston Rob and Amber, Richard, to really-

Richard Lawson: [laughs]

Josh Wigler: ... go into it? You know, like-

Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... is this something they were like, they're falling in love on the island, and this is gonna be OTP forever, or is this something that is just about the game? I think that these are the questions that are worth asking right now.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, and- and- and I think that what the sh- what this episode does well is it shows how complicated it is, and it's like, it's both, you know. Like for someone like Rhaenyra, like she obviously is thinking strategically, but she's also like, "I'm lonely. And like-

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: ... you are the only person," you know ... She's not really recognizing abuse for what it was, but she's like, uh, but to her mind, he's the only person who she's ever really fully connected to in a way that felt, you know, beyond sort of her station in, in this world, beyond her sort of person in the world. As a human being, she feels a connection to him, and that is very rare in her life. Um, and, you know, so, so yes, it is a marriage of convenience to some extent, but it's also, um, something that she feels she needs.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, uh, so the two of them will, uh, spend the night together, uh. "I am no longer a child," she says as she makes the move on him. I have, "I'm no longer a child, but I'm still your niece," in my notes.

Richard Lawson: [laughs] Right, yeah, yeah.

Josh Wigler: Uh.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: Uh, but, yeah, and- and, you know, it does ... Did it seem a little brazen to me that they would just like shack up on the beach for the night and like, you know, wouldn't someone be aware that that was happening? But I guess-

Josh Wigler: Sure, but, uh, uh-

Richard Lawson: ... at this point, they don't really care.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, who are they if not brazen? You know-

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: ... uh, they are the, they are the blood of the dragon. Let us not forget, so, uh, I think a lot of brazen moves from these two over the course of these, uh, seven episodes we've gotten so far, this might be among the most brazen. Um, so now we get into this extended sequence of Aemond Targaryen, the only one of his siblings to not have claimed a dragon yet, is gonna go out on a limb and claim the biggest dragon of them all, uh, the recently vacated Vhagar the dragon. Uh, Vhagar, she of the three original dragons that came as part of Aegon's Conquest.

Uh, was, uh, I believe it was Visenya was the sister of Aegon who rode on Vhagar initially, and she has a pretty nasty reputation, uh, as history remembers her. Uh, so Aemond is coming to claim this dragon as his own, and I would love to get your take on this, Richard, 'cause I knew the outcome here. I knew where this was going to go. This was very exciting for me to finally get this moment adapted. But for you, especially when Vhagar starts, you know, roaring up some fire-

Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: ... how did you think this was gonna play out?

Richard Lawson: Well, I had the feeling that this episode was going to be some sort of variation on The Slap, you know, that show-

Josh Wigler: [laughs]

Richard Lawson: ... where like the one thing-

Josh Wigler: Yes, right.

Richard Lawson: ... involving a child, you know-

Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm.

Richard Lawson: ... sp- sends families into, you know ... So I- I knew something-

Josh Wigler: I feel Zachary Quinto with a Targaryen wig would be pretty good.

Richard Lawson: I- I- ma- maybe next season, um.

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: Um, or Toni Collette, um.

Josh Wigler: Yes. [laughs]

Richard Lawson: I think she was in the Australian version, but, um, uh, uh, so I was like, okay, something's gonna happen. Is it gonna be that this kid dies right now and somehow that gets blamed on who, you know, who, you know, whatever? Um, and I was kinda bracing myself for it, and I was glad that they didn't because it makes it so much more interesting that now this power of this dragon has shifted, um, to this rash, impetuous kid who is by family line aligned with one, the Green, you know, one side of things, um, the Greens, I guess, um. And so now that, you know, it- it- it just- it complicates the dyn- the dynamic so much more than wou- it would if he had just, you know, been sort of unceremoniously killed off.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, I think, uh, it's- it's- it's obviously a very important moment for the Greens, as you put them, and as Rhaenyra will call them and as they are known in Fire & Blood. That was cool to hear on the show. Um, but it's, it's just such a ... I don't know. It was- it was- it was sort of odd because of everything that comes next and me knowing that what was coming next was coming next, that this is sort of played like, it's like Atreyu riding Falkor all over Fantasia. Like there is this bit of a joyride quality to Aemond, uh, flying on, on Vhagar, and yet, it's of course gonna be grounded back down into reality with the _Game of Thrones_ of it all. Like let's not forget-

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: ... what show we're watching. This can only end one way, uh, like some kid has to be hurt here. This kid will be hurt here. He just won't be hurt the way that the show is setting you up to expect.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, and if Atreyu had like a glimmer of evil in him, you know? [laughs]

Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm.

Richard Lawson: Like, like- like this kid is not, I don't think ... But- but, you know, this episode is so much about the younger generations kind of stepping up to the next kind of phase of this whole process. And Aegon has chosen the route of being a skirt chasing, you know, boozer, you know?

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard Lawson: And like, okay, that was his ... And then here's the kind of meeker, younger brother who's been mocked, who, who he- he is now asserting himself. This like, "I'm gonna be this dominant force in this family at least for right now, of- of my generation." And, um-

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: ... you know, it has bad results for him in the short term, but like as he says, he's like, "Well, I'm lost ... I lost an eye, but I gained a dragon," and he knows that in the long term-

Josh Wigler: Fair trade.

Richard Lawson: ... that's much bigger, you know?

Josh Wigler: Good deal, yeah, yeah. Uh, yet another second son here, and I think the dynamics between Aemond and Aegon not dissimilar from Daemon and Viserys, uh, I think-

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... uh, you know, you just rearran- ... You just literally just carve that D off, put it at the top, you get Aemond goes to Daemon very, very easily.

Richard Lawson: That's right.

Josh Wigler: So, uh, I think, uh, some, some very clear connections between those two characters. I really loved the way that they rendered Vhagar, I had to say. You know, we haven't spent a ton of time talking about the individuality of the dragons. This show hasn't spent a- a ton of time with the dragons either, especially for a show called _House of the Dragon_. But Vhagar, there's this one, there's this one moment where Vhagar, she's raking across the moon, uh. You see it from like the perspective of the ocean. You can feel the beating of those leathered wings. It's just ... It was a really cool sequence, uh, one of my favorite dragon sequences across the franchise so far. I really loved it. I was very happy with how they did this one.

Richard Lawson: And there are like-

Josh Wigler: Uh.

Richard Lawson: ... holes in the wings, like- like this is a- this is a well-worn-

Josh Wigler: She's old, yeah.

Richard Lawson: ... dragon. You know, like this is, this dragon has seen some stuff, and ... Yeah, I- I think sometimes I, I, the- the- the CGI of the dragons looks a little too CGI for me, but I thought in these-

Josh Wigler: Totally.

Richard Lawson: ... in these sequences, like you really felt the sort of, the kinda ambivalence of this creature. Like, "Yeah, I'll kind of ... I'll listen to the old words, and I'll, you know, I'll kinda let you ride me, but like I'm also not gonna really think if you can stay on my back, you know?

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard Lawson: Like I'm still an animal," and- and, um, I- I think the- the- the- the sort off of them but also the sort of those things like is really potently felt. And yes, you'd have to be a pretty brave or maybe crazy kid to even attempt something like that. So, uh, I guess the people who can ride the dragons have certainly earned it.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, it does feel like Vhagar is kind of like, "Okay, you wanna claim me? Well, then you-

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... gotta survive the ride."

Richard Lawson: Right, yeah, yeah. Eight- it's just eight seconds-

Josh Wigler: [laughs] You know, "If you can make it through the ride."

Richard Lawson: ... you know, in the- in the ring.

Josh Wigler: Yes, yes. [laughs] Just hold on.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah.

Josh Wigler: Um, we had some feedback, uh, for this episode actually from, uh, from many of the listeners out there. Uh, thank you for writing in. Uh, this came our way from Lynn that I thought would be appropriate to bring in now. Um, Lynn had written in and said, "I apologize if you've covered this and I missed it, but do we know what the lifespan of a dragon is? I'm thinking about how the dragons disappeared between this time period and _Game of Thrones_."

Um, Richard, that's not something that we have talked about a ton. Um, the only record, I believe, of a dragon dying, uh, of natural causes is Bailon the Black Dread, uh, the skull of which we have seen, uh, many times across both of these two shows, who died naturally of old age around 200 years old. Uh, so that is-

Richard Lawson: Okay.

Josh Wigler: ... about how old it seems like the dragons can live.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, and a lot of them smoke, so, you know-

Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm. [laughs]

Richard Lawson: ... [inaudible 00:39:24].

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm, yeah, so they have, they have a hard time, uh.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: You know, but they still look surprisingly youthful. Uh, I'm impressed about that.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah, um, you know, I- I- I think the show has been, I was worried based on the title and the- the opening shot of the- of the season that like this was gonna be like dragonpalooza. But I think they've une- used them with restraint and- and- and kind of built to this big, grand moment with one of these creatures, like pretty effectively.

Josh Wigler: So let's go to the confrontation, uh, sadly not a music number. As Aemond is going to return from Vhagar and, uh, Baela and Rhaena, they've woken up Jace and Luke, "Someone stole Vhagar." And they come, and they collide. And it is, uh, hell breaking loose very, very, very quickly. It's- it's really nasty immediately. It's like Aemond hopped off of this dragon, and this kid who seemed capable of some empathy earlier in the episode maybe, he had this almost moment with Jace, instead it's like that adrenaline of coming off of this huge quest, this- this hu- huge shot in the dark that he was able to suc- suc- succeed on, he comes in.

He's like, "Yeah, your mother's dead. He's mine now. Uh, maybe your cousins can find you a pig to ride." Uh, and immediately, it's just, it's so brutal. It's so savage. Like to call this like, you know, like the playground unchecked, uh, is really not doing justice to the severity of how- how- how dangerous this gets how quickly.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah, and, you know, and then he says the stuff about the, the bast- you know, the kids being-

Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm.

Richard Lawson: ... bastards and, you know, he-

Josh Wigler: "Oh, and your brother doesn't know, does he, Lord Strong?" Yeah.

Richard Lawson: Right. And- and, you know, I guess Aemond feels like, uh, there's no need for decorum anymore. You know, like, "I have a fucking dragon." [laughs]

Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm. [laughs]

Richard Lawson: You know, "So-

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: ... what are you gonna do to me?" Um-

Josh Wigler: "I've got the fucking dragon" too-

Richard Lawson: Right, yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... on top of it, yeah.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, exactly. And, um, you know, he ha- we have seen him being made fun of, so there, you know, there, it's some of that anger is, is justified, you know, um, not necessarily toward Laena's kids, but like, um, it ... Yeah, I mean, I think this is the emergence of a major character, you know, um, one who now be- befitting of, you know, uh, Tyrion's and Richard the III's before has some kind of deformity or disability, um, you know, that's been now ki- kind of given to him and kind of earned in a way. Um, so I think, you know, a- as a sort of dramatic trope, uh, it's, we're being told who this Aemond character is finally, I think.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Um, he does earn this injury over the course of this fight. You know, it's first, it's just pushing around and punching and kicking and then rocks are involved, as you observed. A knife is drawn. Luke is going to grab it just as it seems like Aemond is gonna beat Jace to death with a rock. Uh, and, uh, Jace is gonna flick dirt in his eye, and you think that's the worst thing that'll happen to Aemond's eye until Luke shows up the knife and slices him across the face. And then the Kingsguard show up, just in time. [laughs]

Richard Lawson: Look, these aren't babysitters. You know, they've got-

Josh Wigler: [laughs]

Richard Lawson: ... they've got more important stuff to do, uh. Wh- where are the-

Josh Wigler: What does Criston say? He's like, "You've never had to protect a prince from another prince my lady-

Richard Lawson: [laughs] Yeah, exactly. I mean-

Josh Wigler: ... really hard work."

Richard Lawson: Yeah, these guys are very Keystone Cops. They're kinda, kinda bumbling.

Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm.

Richard Lawson: Um, yeah, and, and obviously, like, uh, uh, you know, that's gonna have consequences, I'm assuming.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, for sure. Um, so it's the kids in the room, and now it's the kids and the adults in the room. And this is another huge scene in this episode where so much of what we have wa- uh, been watching, Richard, uh, so much of the drama that has been unfolding over the course of these first seven episodes spills out into blood for the first time between Rhaenyra and Alicent. Uh, as, uh, we do have this question of what happened? How did we get here? How did this happen on anybody's watch? And it's really Viserys, you know, very King Lear in the middle, just like completely unclear as to how any of this around him could've been done.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, it's a wake-up moment that he then swats away pretty quickly.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. [laughs]

Richard Lawson: You know, like he's like, he's like, "Oh, I see. And everyone in this room" ... And there's a lot of people in that room for some reason. Uh. He's like, "Everyone has admitted this thing to themselves and to each other."

Josh Wigler: It's 'cause they all went to bed too early.

Richard Lawson: [laughs] Uh-

Josh Wigler: Right, right.

Richard Lawson: ... you know, exactly.

Josh Wigler: Couldn't stay asleep, yeah.

Richard Lawson: Um, you know, and, and then, but then just by the end of the scene, Viserys is like, "Eh, anyway. We're ... It's done." You know, like he- he- he once again retreats into that kinda willful ignorance that, uh, is kind of the hallmark of his character.

Josh Wigler: 'Cause he's tired. You know, he's so old, and he, he has fallen so far apart that he, if he ever possessed this backbone, and that's a question, um, if he had ever possessed it, he just does not have that anymore. It's withered away. And so even in the face of all of this, um, you know, he's trying to draw out from Aemond, "Who told you about this, this ugly rumor about these kids and their parentage?" And Rhaenyra is even, you know, brazenly putting that out into the room, saying, "He, he questioned my children's father. Uh, he c- he called them bastards. That's high treason. They're in line for the throne. Aemond should be sharply questioned over this."

Uh, and when Viserys is able to push it out of Aemond, uh, much to Alicent's chagrin, Alicent is feeling like she is once again being just completely dismissed. Um, Aemond is going to point to Aegon, to his brother, and say, "I heard it from him." And Aegon doesn't even try to hide it, uh, when Viserys says, "Who told you?" He says, "We know. Just look, just look."

Richard Lawson: Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Wigler: And it's what everybody's been trying to tell Viserys on a bunch of different matters, uh, for this whole show. "Just look. Just use your eyes."

Richard Lawson: So there's a moment when Aemond looks to his mother, uh, when- when Viserys is questioning about who told him. Are we to understand that as it being clear that, that Alicent has told him, or is he looking to her to be like, "Do I, do I tell who told?" You know, like I- I ... That look-

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard Lawson: ... seemed very charged, and I wasn't really sure how to kinda read it.

Josh Wigler: Well, he has the one eye, so he's just really focused in-

Richard Lawson: [laughs] Right, right, right, right, right.

Josh Wigler: ... I think is, is a big piece of it.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah.

Josh Wigler: Um. No, I think- I think it could be both things. Uh, I think that there's, there's one version of interpreting that where, um, Alicent told him, and he doesn't want to rat her out 'cause that could-

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: ... be very, very, very bad. And what's, what's the king gonna do, kill his brother? You know, like, kill my ... Like, kill your son? Like you're not gonna do that, but you might execute your wife. Uh-

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... you could, you could go there. Um, but I think there's also a world where it's like, is he taking marching orders from Alicent? Is he now like, "I'm in the war. Like I'm in the game now-

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: ... and she's the general, and I'm her lieutenant, so I'm looking for her for my next move"?

Richard Lawson: Right, and regardless, I think Viserys clocks the look. You know-

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: ... he's like, "Oh, I see. You boys are aligned to your mother, not to your father." You know, and-

Josh Wigler: Yes.

Richard Lawson: ... and that's a- that feels like a crucial thing that, you know, was first announced with the green dress and is now really in motion where he's like, "I ... This is, this is gonna be fought whether I'm here or not, you know-

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: ... and because my sons aren't gonna listen to me."

Josh Wigler: No. Um, so Viserys wants all of this to end. "Your father, your grandsire, your king demands an end to this infighting," and Alicent says, "No. No, uh, apologies, we're past that. We need to make, we need to make ourselves whole here." Uh, and Viserys says, "I can't restore his eye. What would you have me do?" And Alicent says, "Well, we could just take one of theirs, right? Uh, Criston, go get me Luke's eye." And this is a huge ... Like the air is sucked outta the room, uh, in this moment, this eye for an eye moment. That again, another one a lot of people were really anticipating.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. Um, it's ... I don't know. I- I- I ... Alicent, that- that's a- that's a big leap for her, you know, and I wasn't sure if that felt like kind of the- the writers kinda forcing that drama. But, but it does kind of make sense where she's like, uh, "This is ... I'm, at some point, I'm gonna have to make my position known, and like, I'm also like in blind rage about my, uh, my son right now"-

Josh Wigler: Yeah [inaudible 00:47:08]-

Richard Lawson: ... and- and might- might as well now. Might- might as well kinda just put it on the table and be like, wa- "I am, uh, Rhaenyra and I are diametrically opposed to one another, and like there's no reconciling that except through, you know, a very harsh kind of justice."

Josh Wigler: Yeah, well, I think Viserys consistently, constantly siding with Rhaenyra on all of this, and I think Alicent's still holding onto that final betrayal in her friendship with Rhaenyra 10 years earlier that has led to so much of this. Um, you know, the- the inability thr- for the two of them to be able to have a conversation to work it out, and now here we are all these years later. She says it, right? When she takes the knife, she unsheathes it from Viserys, uh, and marches across the room, uh, to- to take the eye herself, which is a choice, uh, that Rhaenyra steps in.

And they have their, you know, their realest conversation that they've had in a decade probably where she says, "I've been doing what was expected of me this whole time. I've been upholding the kingdom, upholding the family, obeying the law, and you do whatever you want." Uh, and Rhaenyra says, "Exhausting, isn't it? Hiding under the cloak of your own righteousness, but now they see you as you really are." Uh, and then the blood spills out onto-

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... the ground. And we are-

Richard Lawson: So-

Josh Wigler: ... officially we've gone too far.

Richard Lawson: The who that Alicent really is that Rhaenyra's getting at, is that ... Well, it's either one of two things or it's both. I guess maybe like one, like Rhaenyra is referring to "You went behind my back and married my fucking dad." [laughs]

Josh Wigler: [laughs] Yeah.

Richard Lawson: Like so that's a pri- that's a primal anger, uh, toward Alicent.

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: But also, do you think that's her saying like, "I know you had Harwin killed"?

Josh Wigler: Um, I think, she's gonna- she's gonna say to Daemon later on, right, or she said it to him earlier, I suppose. It was in that conversation on the beach, right, uh, where it's like, "I don't think that she's capable of cold-blooded murder"-

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: ... but maybe in this moment seeing her in this way, maybe-

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... she's rethinking that. That's interesting.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: I think a lot of it though is also like, to some extent, I don't know how much she knows that Alicent knows about what happened between her and Criston Cole. Maybe she can guess. You know, I don't know-

Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: ... where the ... Was there a conversation there in the past 10 years? There also must be from Rhaenyra's perspective something of a suddenness to how horribly their relationship fell apart so quickly. Um, so I think that there's a lot of, a lot of rage there, uh, too, and like she's been suffering a lot of slights from the Queen, having to do that own, you- you know, her own walk of shame of sorts in, uh, the start of episode six. Um, so in any case, any pretense of any semblance of, you know, redemptive, restorative qualities of repairing their relationship, it seems like that's done.

Uh, it seems like that is not really, uh, uh, a thing that's gonna occur. And I think it's- it's really, it's really telling for the show that Aemond of all people is the one who deescalates the situation. He's the one who says, "It's all right, Mother. Let it go. It was a fair exchange. I may have lost an eye, but I gained a dragon." And that's-

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... it. That's the mic drop.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, here's- here's this coolly, calculating kid, you know, who is just like, uh, "Ma, it's, it, it ... This is a battle not the war. Like [laughs] let's, let's regroup."

Josh Wigler: "We won today. It's fine."

Richard Lawson: "We won-

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: ... we did," yeah. And also like, I think in his mind view, uh, his mindset, he's like, "This just kinda like makes me tougher and more badass." And like, you know, like he- he, he likes what this kind of, um, thi- this whole incident has sort of brought to his, his profile, you know, in- in-

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: ... a way, um, which is, uh-

Josh Wigler: Best night of his life.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah, in some ways. And, um-

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: ... yeah, so I guess we're gonna start to see these kids really asserting themselves more and more, uh, you know, as the season and next season goes.

Josh Wigler: I think that's fair to say. Um, Otto is going to have a moment alone with Alicent, uh, and Alicent in, in, you know, uh, in, in her private moment with her father is going to express some remorse over what happened. But Otto is like, "No, that was great. That was great. Uh, it was the-

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... I- I really didn't think you had it in you. I really didn't. Uh, you do, and now if we just hold tight, we can win this thing. Uh, did you see what your son did? He got us Vhagar.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: A thousand times the price he paid." Uh, so Otto, he, you know, he's been gone from the action for a minute here, Richard, but he really hasn't missed a day.

Richard Lawson: No, no. And, you know, and- and it's interesting because I think that Alicent's contrition is, is real, you know? I think she's like, "Oh my God. What did I do? Like that-

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard Lawson: ... was way too much." And, you know, there is a little bit of a TV writing convention where he's like, "That was the dumbest, most rash thing, and I loved it." [laughs] You know?

Josh Wigler: [laughs] Exactly, yeah.

Richard Lawson: Like that kinda turn, like that turn is a very familiar trope. But like it works here because he's like, he sees a moment, you know, like kind of Rhaenys or Daemon even of like m- is maybe- has maybe Alicent exhausted herself? You know, is this it?

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: Um, and he's like, "No, no, no, no. You- you're still in it, you're still in it, you're still in it. You're in it more than I thought you were. Um, and now here, I'm gonna reveal to you that I wasn't just trying to ha- have us be close to power. I'm trying to get us into full power, you know, and-

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: ... um, and, you know, now, like now that you're a grownup and I- and you're- you're capable of this kind of thing, I'm gonna let you in on the fullness of this plan," um, which, you know, she seems receptive to in some ways.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Um, I really thought that this was such a good episode for Olivia Cooke, who, uh, I know has been in so many things. She's been mostly off of my radar honestly, uh, and I've really loved getting to know her through the role of Alicent. We had more feedback about her specifically. This was from Shawn, uh, who has been such a fan of Olivia Cooke. Uh, Shawn said, "She definitely has the ability to command the screen. I'm hoping this really propels her into becoming more known by American audiences. The casting definitely signals to me that the grownup Alicent is going to be formidable and honestly more engaging. I may even end up rooting for her." Um, I felt like this was a really big breakout episode for the Queen, for sure.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah, Alicent is definitely the kinda Survivor contestant I tend to root for.

Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm.

Richard Lawson: The- the woman who like people count out, but it has a secret medal, and we- wields it when it's important. And yeah, uh, so I ... And Olivia Cooke is great. Um, if people listening haven't watched a movie called Thoroughbreds that she's in with Anya-Taylor Joy from, I don't know, five years ago maybe, um, seek that out. She is ... That's the first thing that I saw her in where I was like, "Whoa, this, this actor is like really gonna be big." And, um, she's, yeah, she's great in this episode.

Josh Wigler: Great, great tip. Um, Laenor's gonna come to Rhaenyra, uh, and Laenor who has missed all of this. He was away. He was, you know ... Who knows where he was, uh, overnight when all of this happened, but he's being caught up on everything that happened. Rhaenyra is like, "Aemond called our sons bastards openly." Uh, and Laenor, who's been beating himself up-

Richard Lawson: In front of the whole school. [laughs]

Josh Wigler: [laughs] In front of the whole school. Yeah, right on stage.

Richard Lawson: [laughs]

Josh Wigler: Uh, at the talent show. Uh, Laenor is, is like, "I- I have, I have a done a lot in my time. I- I- I fought war. I've fought dreadful enemies. I- I couldn't defend my sister. I couldn't defend you. I couldn't defend our kids." Um, and sh- he does mention this line that, that you alluded to earlier, uh, s- you know, essentially that, "Duty and happiness cannot coexist. They cannot mutually exist." Uh, that, uh, he- he says, "I hate the way the gods made me." And Rhaenyra says, "I, I love the way the gods made you. You're an honorable man with a good heart." And he says, "Well"-

Richard Lawson: She's so progressive. [laughs]

Josh Wigler: She- she's in. She's all the way in.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: And he says, "I don't know. I don't know about any of that. I think I really just need to recommit myself to you. I think I need to, you know, completely shave off any possibility of being happy, despite our arrangement. I don't think I can do the two things at the same time. You deserve better than me. You deserve a husband." And this lands with her, and I think lands with her in a way that makes-

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... a little more sense once we see the very end of the episode.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. So like, "You're right. You know what? You should be happy, and I should have a husband. So [laughs] let-

Josh Wigler: "Yeah, why don't you go on vacation?" Yeah.

Richard Lawson: ... let's go about solving that in a very unexpected way."

Josh Wigler: Yeah, I think for her, like she's really like, "Well, happiness is definitely not on the table for me. Uh, you know, I'm-

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: ... long past happiness."

Richard Lawson: Right, right.

Josh Wigler: That's like how, how Rhaenys had given up on ever being the Queen of Westeros. Like "I gave up on happiness years ago. Uh, you could still have a happy life. Uh, and if I'm gonna stay in this like bitter pit, like I need somebody who's gonna fight it out with me." Uh, so she's ready to make that choice.

Richard Lawson: And make it, she does.

Josh Wigler: Indeed she does. Uh, so the end of the episode is really focusing a lot on that. There's a little more business with Alicent. She, you know, tries to make up with Viserys. Viserys is just even too tired to have the conversation again. So apology accepted [laughs] is sort of the vibe. Um, she's also gonna have a moment with Larys when she's alone on the ship. Uh, finally, he gets his opening to have a conversation with her, and she basically says, "Not now, definitely later." Uh, and he's like, "Good enough for me.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: That's great." So we-

Richard Lawson: "Don't go skulking around taking a kid's eye. Let's- let's- let's hold you off until I really need it." Uh, but, you know-

Josh Wigler: Yeah, "We don't need the eye, but we're gonna need an eye equivalent." Like, uh, an eye adjacent move is- is definitely on the way. Uh, so dangerous ally in Alicent's corner for sure. It does seem like she was scandalized by it at the end of the last week's episode, Richard, but maybe now she's seeing the value in what Larys did.

Richard Lawson: I think she is, but also I think she's scared of him. And, uh, she's basically like, "Oh no, no, we're still ... We're allied. Don't worry, don't worry, don't worry. You know, like I'm just, I'm just ... We're gonna play the slow game." You know, I think she's just kinda trying to keep him satisfied or- or contented, uh- uh, to some extent until she figures out what to do about him, you know?

Josh Wigler: Yeah, that's a good read. Um, Rhaenyra and Daemon have this final moment together as they're watching the Greens sail off. Uh, and Rhaenyra is going to talk about how, um, "I cannot face the Greens alone. I need you, uncle. Let us bind our blood just as Aegon the Conqueror did with his sisters. With you as my husband, prince consort, my claim would not be easily challenged." And she's talking about how "The Velaryons are of the see, but we are made of fire, and we have always been meant to burn together." And Daemon's like, "Oh, wow, I'm awake now. Okay, yeah, let's do that."

Richard Lawson: Yeah, I mean, I think it's kind of her saying like, "I have fully bought into this cult of, of Targaryen stuff, you know, so like, let's just do it. You know, I'm all, I'm all in, uh. There's no doubt." Um, and I think even in the, you know ... I, I think there probably is a moment, however brief, where he's like, "Oh she really wants me to kill her husband."

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard Lawson: You know? And he's like, "So she really means it," but then obviously, there's a turn somewhere that we don't see happen where she's, it, like- like "Let- let's- let's stage this thing." Um, but yeah, I think that basically she proves her commitment to, you know, this whole thing, and, uh, that's enough for him. And he's like, "Actually, maybe I am back in it."

Josh Wigler: There's this, there's this thing that she says about, um, you know, the difference between the fire and sea. "Fire is a prison. The sea offers an escape." Uh, so I think that it- it does speak to this feeling of resignation that she has where it's like, "I'm in the fire. I cannot get outta the fire. I am fire, so I am locked in. Um, Laenor is not. Laenor can leave. He can flee." And I think that when you, when you go back and you watch this final sequence and you know where it's actually ending that this, this setup of Daemon saying, "We can't get married unless Laenor is dead," and Rhaenyr- Rhaenyra very chillingly says, "Oh, I know."

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Uh, and my jaw was on the ground at this point of I, I can't believe that they're gonna have Rhaenyra be the one who does this. Um, but instead, she's, you know, arranging this situation for, for Laenor to leave, which is not without, you know, issue, uh, in its- in its own right. It doesn't seem like Laenor's parents are in-

Richard Lawson: No.

Josh Wigler: ... on the plot.

Richard Lawson: No, no.

Josh Wigler: So that's tough.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, I think that she, that was like the hard, the hard calculation. She was like, "So they're gonna be devastated, but everyone else will be okay." You know, um, do we know whose body that was?

Josh Wigler: Random, uh, guard number seven, I don't know. We, we see D-

Richard Lawson: Oh right, the guy he kills, right.

Josh Wigler: We see Daemon ... Yeah-

Richard Lawson: That's right, okay.

Josh Wigler: ... Daemon Solid Snake's one guy. Uh, and so-

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: ... it's, it's that person. But we don't-

Richard Lawson: Okay.

Josh Wigler: ... I don't ... Uh, you know, just a random person. Happy ending for everybody in this episode, uh, on the Velaryon side of the line except for Laenor's parents and that guy.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Uh, they-

Richard Lawson: [laughs]

Josh Wigler: ... they really did not make out so well. But Laenor, we're- we're thrilled to see it. Um, but I think her, her, her dialogue with Daemon makes a lot of sense when you, when you know what's actually coming, uh, uh, "A quick death, one with witnesses, um, everyone will whisper that we were somehow responsible. Let them whisper. We'll know the truth of it, and our enemies won't. And they will fear what else we might be capable of."

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: Um, so I think it's, you know, it's really open once you, uh, once you know where the ending is going. And I do think that, you know, some of the way in which it played, I'm, I'm really glad that it ultimately does end up the way that it does, that Laenor and Qarl escape together because if it had been going the traditional route of the book where Qarl kills Laenor, at least according to the historical text, it's still open to interpretation, so I think this is still totally fine within canon, um, it would've played very fast for me. It would've played very rushed.

It would've been honestly a little cheesy, I think. And it still is kind of cheesy with the, "You've always looked down on me," and the little swordplay in front of the one witness who runs off to go and get people. Um, but like, it- it fits well 'cause it's play acting, you know?

Richard Lawson: Right, right.

Josh Wigler: It- it is, it is a show.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, these are show queens, you know? [laughs]

Josh Wigler: Yeah. [laughs]

Richard Lawson: Um.

Josh Wigler: It's great.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, uh, but I think also there is, uh, the ... I'm, I like the, you know, the- the final thing of them in the rowboat, and you could almost see on Laenor's face, uh, a little trick, you know, glimmer of that last scene in The Graduate where they're like, "Okay, we ran away together. Now what?" You know, [laughs] so.

Josh Wigler: Now what, yeah.

Richard Lawson: I'm curious if Laenor will ever come back or if that's, you know, uh, we're just gonna have to kinda hope that he and Qarl, uh, don't get where they're going and are like, "Actually, I don't like you that much." [laughs]

Josh Wigler: [laughs] Yeah. Um, I don't know. It's, it's interesting. I'm not sure. I'm not sure where they're gonna go. I think that there is definitely, uh, there's definitely a path to bring him back onto the show and Qarl as well. There's some characters from deeper into the book that I think that you could imagine, uh, these characters coming and taking their place. I think that Laenor and Qarl could, could exist where certain characters exist deeper in the narrative. Um, but I also kinda just hope that somebody, somebody ... I used to say this about 24 all the time. You don't have to kill off everybody who you couldn't sign a contract with. Just let them leave.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: You know, they can clock out for the day. You don't have to stab them in the chest with a hypodermic needle. Just let them live their lives. Uh, and I hope that Laenor and Qarl kinda just get to live their lives, but this is _Game of Thrones_, and they're probably gonna come back in some sort of deadly, dangerous way.

Richard Lawson: Or HBO could do a spinoff of like Laenor and Qarl, you know, sorta Queer As Folk-esque in the, you know, in the free cities, you know. I would watch that.

Josh Wigler: Interestingly, there is the Sea Snake show that-

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... is being developed. Uh, could it be, uh, you know-

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... secretly it's a Laenor project?

Richard Lawson: Well, I think also the big question at- toward the end of this episode is like, you know, what is gonna happen with the Sea Snake and Rhaenys now? You know, like, where-

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard Lawson: ... does this put them? Um, especially because they were aligned with Daemon, but now they're kind of not. I mean, I don't- uh, if he married her, uh, Rhaenyra, I, you know, I am ... It- it's interesting to think about like where they kinda factor into this now, uh, because they're, they're too big characters to not like see further than this moment, I think, right?

Josh Wigler: Sure. You would think so. Um, I'll be really interested to see what their immediate reaction to this is as well. Um, this is, you know, total uncharted territory for me, which I love, I think is great. And next week's episode is called The Lord of the Tides. So you assume-

Richard Lawson: Hm.

Josh Wigler: ... that we are not quite done with the Driftmark of it all.

Richard Lawson: Okay.

Josh Wigler: Uh-

Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... so, yeah, I expect much more with the Sea Snake. Before we totally close that, did you have any thoughts about Rhaenyra and Daemon's wedding. Uh, interesting traditions on display here for this Targaryen wedding.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, they're putting blood on each other, right? And, uh-

Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm, yeah-

Richard Lawson: ... and- and cut- cut their lips with dragonglass, it looks like.

Josh Wigler: And, and the kids are there, the boys.

Richard Lawson: Yes.

Josh Wigler: Um.

Richard Lawson: Yes.

Josh Wigler: And Daemon's daughters are there too.

Richard Lawson: And Daemon's daughters are there, and, and yeah ... So all the, uh, so all the ... So thi- so this isn't like a secret, secret wedding, obviously. Um, but I just, I couldn't really tell, is Viserys aware this is happening? Like, like I- I guess we'll find out next week, but like, uh, again, with the sort of brazen thing, I think they just don't care anymore.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Well, I think that a big part of this too is like if we're making this move, part of it has to be the boldness, right? Like part of it has to be some sort of like reputational, "Come at me, you know, like, uh, try and cross us. See what happens."

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: I think some of that energy has to exude from this moment, uh, so I- I think that that's, that's very much where their mindsets are. It's not this secret wedding. Uh, it is, you know, a closed ceremony, but I think the news will travel, and I think they want it to travel. I think they want it-

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... to travel far and wide and spread like wildfire.

Richard Lawson: They made it to the merge, and they want everyone to know they have the hid- hidden immunity idol.

Josh Wigler: Richard-

Richard Lawson: You know?

Josh Wigler: ... at any point that you want to talk about-

Richard Lawson: [laughs]

Josh Wigler: ... uh, _Game of Thrones_ and like play out a Survivor simulated season of _Game of Thrones_, this would not be my first rodeo. So you just let me know.

Richard Lawson: I think that's a good idea. We should do it.

Josh Wigler: Just knock on my door. Been there, done that, will happily do it again.

Richard Lawson: [laughs]

Josh Wigler: But I think that's gonna do it for us on _Still Watching_ this week. That's episode seven, "Driftmark", in the books. Next week is Lord of the Tides, episode eight. Not quite yet up to what we assume will be a legendary penultimate episode of a season of _Game of Thrones_, Richard, but damn near close. The anti-penultimate.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah, which, you know, we're- we're heading toward big things. Um, and I don't genuinely don't know what those things are, so I'm excited.

Josh Wigler: It's gonna be fun. Uh, we wanna hear from all of you out there, stillwatchingpod@gmail.com. That's our email address. What did you think of the big Laenor twist? What do you think about the Greens having the dragon? Aemond has claimed Vhagar. We wanna know what your predictions are for the rest of the season, so please write in, stillwatchingpod@gmail.com. Richard, where can people find you? What do you got going on?

Richard Lawson: Uh, Twitter, I'm @rilaws, uh, and then I'm just writing reviews and stuff on vf.com, so keep an eye out for it.

Josh Wigler: Amazing. I'm @roundhoward. I am recapping _House of the Dragon_ here at vf.com every single week, including next week for episode eight. Before we close out, a huge shout out to Dave Gonzalez without whom this podcast is not possible and without whom I cannot imagine either of us would stand at a chance at claiming a dragon the size of Vhagar. But I think with Dave on our side, we might have a shot. I really would not be able to contribute much to the equation, Richard.

Richard Lawson: [laughs]

Josh Wigler: I don't know about you.

Richard Lawson: I, I would cheer from the sidelines.

Josh Wigler: Uh-huh, yeah, okay, so it's really on Dave.

Richard Lawson: [laughs] Yeah, yeah.

Josh Wigler: All right, folks, we will be back next week with more _Still Watching_. Until then, take care. Buh-bye.