Katey Rich: Hello, and welcome to Little Gold Men, the awards season podcast from Vanity Fair. Speaker 2: It's such an honor to present this next award. Speaker 3: And here are the nominees. Speaker 4: And the Oscar goes to... Speaker 5: And the Oscar goes to... Speaker 6: And I can't deny the fact that you like me right now. You like me. Speaker 7: I'm the king of the world. Speaker 8: There's a mistake. Moonlight, you guys won Best Picture. Katey Rich: I'm Katey Rich, and I'm here by myself, so I'm gonna keep it kind of quick today, uh, because we have two great interviews to share. First, you're gonna hear from David Canfield, who talked to Sigourney Weaver. She's had obviously a long and extremely successful career, but she's got an especially good fall happening right now. She's in the film Call Jane, about the underground abortion network in the '60s. Uh, she's in Paul Schrader's Master Gardener, which premiered at the Venice Film Festival earlier this year. And then coming up later this year, she's in Avatar: The Way of Water. Uh, she was obviously, of course, in the original Avatar. She's back a different character this time. Uh, and had some talk about what a kinder James Cameron was like making that movie. So, a really big fall for an actress that we love. So, let's here David's conversation with Sigourney Weaver. David Canfield: Sigourney Weaver, thank you so much for joining us today. Call Jane is, uh, premiering this week. Uh, it's a pretty remarkable story for those who are not familiar, there's also a documentary about it, uh, premiered on HBO, so this, this group, you know, perhaps a little bit ahead of the culture is very much back in the conversation this year. Um, I've seen the movie twice. I saw it, uh, at Sundance when we were in some kind of different world, let's say. Um, and a... and it hit me so much differently watching it again after, uh, Roe v. Wade's, uh, being overturned. I'm curious, if you've, you know... how you've experienced the movie pre and post, and i- if you've ever had that with a movie before, where it suddenly takes on this incredible new resonance after you make it? Sigourney Weaver: I mean, I usually try to choose subjects that are close to my heart, and often the situation they may be describing is still going on. But, I think Call Jane was especially important to me. I, I was alive, uh- David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Sigourney Weaver: ... before Roe versus Wade, and I think... I think that what's missing in our big dialogue is just how much love and support, and actual healthcare the woman needs who's in this situation. And about a third of women now, um, don't have access to that kind of healthcare. But ultimately, you know, I think Phyllis Nagy did a brilliant job taking you back into the experience of the woman. We see the procedure in a very non, you know... in a very discreet way. And you, you see different women having the procedure. It just sort of reorients the argument away from politics, to healthcare, which it is. David Canfield: Mm. What is your research project for a movie like this, where there's so much in the script, but there's also so much inevitably that goes beyond the script in terms of this group, this world, this time, and this, this activism? Um, what did that look like for you on, on this one versus perhaps other projects? Sigourney Weaver: Yeah. Well, luckily I was alive. David Canfield: Yes. Sigourney Weaver: So I remember women burning their bras. And, um, I think I, I just devoured any information. The women in, in, um, Call Jane, have done a lot of interviews, and as you say there's a documentary about it. And I just gobbled up all of that- David Canfield: Mm. Sigourney Weaver: ... detail. Um, these women were so courageous and they, they, uh, ranged from, you know, college students to older women. And, um, it just, to me, was very inspiring to show. And I really believe this, when women come together, it's so easy for us to form connections and take care of each other. And I think that's a message we really need to hear these days when people are so estranged from each other because of politics. This is, to me, not a political issue. This is about healthcare and access. David Canfield: Mm. Th- that's the thing about the movie too, is it's incredibly hopeful, and it, it... that surprised me the first time I watched it and it kinda knocked me out a little bit the second time I watched it. I, I forgot that quality of the movie. Did it feel that way on set? And, and is that a sense... Is that a kind of hope that you think about now that the movie has this greater resonance and importance I think? Sigourney Weaver: It's interesting, tha- that's a good point. I do think the movie is reassuring and reminding us that we are not helpless in this situation. I think there's a lot of, um... Since Roe versus Wade was struck down, there's a lot of just absolute shock and alarm at the fact that these rights are stripped away. And I think the movie just takes us back into a time when, when we were still in the same situation, but we, we were motivated to take action and come together. And, and we can't look back. We have to look forward. The whole landscape has changed, in terms of medication and everything else. And I think the, the upbeat tone of the movie... I daresay my character is quite funny sometimes. David Canfield: Yes. Sigourney Weaver: And, uh, she's very dry. And so, there are actually a lotta laughs in the movie. It's also about women's friendship and all kinds of other things. So, it's, it's a good movie. It's a, you know... it's, it's not a bleak movie. David Canfield: Right. Exactly. Um, you mentioned your character, Virginia, not taking no for an answer, which is one of my favorite qualities in a Sigourney Weaver character. It's been true [laughs]- Sigourney Weaver: [laughs] David Canfield: ... a few of your characters over the years. Uh, is that an easy space for you to step into? Sigourney Weaver: Well, sometimes I have a flamethrower, which really makes it difficult- David Canfield: [laughs] Sigourney Weaver: ... [inaudible 00:06:13]. David Canfield: Fair enough. Sigourney Weaver: Yeah, that's an interesting way to look at it. I love Virginia because she was unlike any- anything I'd ever played, you know? She's an activist. The women... A lot of women were somewhat sidelined in the anti-war movement because the men were the leaders. And I think, you know, Virginia comes at this organization with all that pent-up energy that she never got to express and, um, has really found her calling. And I think she's a very interesting leader. She's good at listening. Rare. And, uh- David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Sigourney Weaver: ... and, um, really wants to find solutions to some of the issues confronting them, like the access to healthcare for, you know, Black women, Latino, and Indigenous, and LGBT women. Which, is a problem that existed then and still exists now. David Canfield: Yes. You have quite an im-... a remarkable year, I would say, for any actor, uh, in 2022. Four very different roles that I've seen in Master Gardener... Well, three that I've seen. Master Gardener, The Good House, Call Jane. No one has seen Avatar 2 yet [laughs]. I don't... Sigourney Weaver: No. David Canfield: I assume [inaudible 00:07:29]. Sigourney Weaver: I haven't either. David Canfield: Um, in an industry that, and I know you've talked about this, enjoys typecasting, uh, and pigeonholing, especially, uh, actresses, it must feel good and fun to be able to play, as you said, this is a completely different role for you, and these are... the other ones are as well. Sigourney Weaver: I know. I'm, I'm, like, shocked. It's like I threw these magic beans out the window- David Canfield: [laughs] Sigourney Weaver: ... and they went boom. I've always tried to find movies that mean something to me, but also I never like to repeat myself. I'm always game to try a, a character that is very challenging to me. But it is great fun for me, frankly, to see, you know, as an older actor as well, these four movies. And I have a fifth, uh, project coming out too. A- a- again, a very strong woman. They're all physically different. They're all in... have different situations. And, and I just... I love the fact that, you know, we can see that actors should not be typecast. That's an easy way of categorizing us. But that we're capable of so many different stories to tell. And I'm, I'm... I feel very fortunate that, that e-... This was all because of COVID. I started Avatar in 2017, I think, so it's all coming out in a jumble. Um, but it, it, it does make me happy. David Canfield: Yeah. Uh, and to an extent I think it's about finding variations within, like, say, a strong woman type, as you say, you know? In Master Gardener, uh, she's certainly a strong woman, but she is about as far [laughs] from Virginia as you can get. Sigourney Weaver: Yeah. David Canfield: Yeah. Sigourney Weaver: Yes [laughs]. That's true. David Canfield: [inaudible 00:09:14] How do you... How does a character like that strike you on the page? And how do you think about approaching it? Because it's, it's a fun role and it's a different... very different role. Sigourney Weaver: Yeah. To me, it's a very Tennessee Williams kind of world, in a way. Um, you know, I'm so text-oriented. I really let, uh, the, the text work on me. And especially with Paul Schrader's script, Master Gardener, it was so dense. It was like a layer, layer, layer, and you had to kind of just spend a lot of time with the script and let it seep into you. But I actually based Norma on two women I love and respect very much, 'cause I felt there was a danger of her slipping into some sort of caricature or- David Canfield: Sure. Sigourney Weaver: ... bad person. And I just wanted to play this woman's personal situation. It's a very odd situation, but she's very emotionally caught up in it. And, um, and it's a, you know... it's a... it is, as Paul explained it to me, it's about a, a three-way love affair. David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Sigourney Weaver: And, um, so I found it fascinating. I- I've sort of avoided roles where I potentially chew the scenery, but Norma does some of that and it felt really good- David Canfield: A little. Sigourney Weaver: ... [inaudible 00:10:33]. David Canfield: [laughs] I think we've been waiting for that. Little, little s- Sigourney Weaver: Yeah, I think I have. David Canfield: ... scenery chewing. Yeah. Sigourney Weaver: [laughs] David Canfield: After a few years in this industry, one, one earns the right, I think. Sigourney Weaver: Yeah. David Canfield: [laughs] Yeah. Um, the way I heard you shot this was, was pretty interesting, just given the, the limitations, and time, and budget, uh, where you'd go from, say, you know, within one scene a master setup, to a two-shot, to a closeup. Do I have that kind of way of doing right? Sigourney Weaver: Yes. I mean, Paul had wanted to shoot in 20 days. That is the way he's shot First Reformed and, um, Card Counter. Uh, and he wanted to stick to that. So, often during the day... I'm very grateful, I've been around a while, so I kind of understood that, but I think for Quintessa she just took to it, you know? Uh, but, um- David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Sigourney Weaver: ... [inaudible 00:11:23] he did the master, he did a couple of those, and then just skipped to the next part of the scene and did maybe a two-shot. And then, just went in for what we absolutely needed, usually at the end of the scene for the closeup. So, it was fine because the script was so good. Um, but it was a very economical way of shooting, let's put it that way. Usually, you shoot a master, and then a two-shot, and then a [inaudible 00:11:48]. Uh, or you have a shot that turns into that. So, anyway... But, you know, he did it in 20 days. He's amazing. David Canfield: Yeah. Given the kind of character you're playing with that sort of schedule, it's, it's also interesting to me that you have to make big choices and you don't necessarily have as much... as much room to, um, maybe scale them back. You gotta kinda go for it, right? Sigourney Weaver: Yeah. I love that, though. David Canfield: Yeah. Sigourney Weaver: I think that's what I love about film, is you just have to leap off that cliff. David Canfield: Yeah. Sigourney Weaver: And it's like doing, you know... it's like doing a very broad sketch of something and, um, hopefully the colors start to be infused at the same time. But, it does involve sort of no net. David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Sigourney Weaver: And I must say, I find that terrifying, exhilarating, and helpful for the character because you had to have, like, a direct line into that belly of the character and get out of their way because by then you've absorbed the script enough so that there is kind of a creature [laughs], you know, snarling and waiting to get out. David Canfield: Right. Both Paul Schrader and Phyllis Nagy, I believe it's the first time you've worked with these directors, you have many r- recurring co- collaborators, including one we'll talk about in a little bit. Um, but working with a new director, let's say with Phyllis for example, um, what does that do for you as an actor? What does... What are those early sort of feeling each other out challenges like? Um, and h-... what... how did Phyllis ultimately strike you as a collaborator? Sigourney Weaver: Well, you know, knowing that we had no time, I think all of us prepared a lot. David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Sigourney Weaver: And Phyllis and I, uh, had a couple of Zooms where we would just sort of touch on things. Um, there's... Virginia has quite a bit of exposition and I, I felt it was a little bold, uh, so we talked about that. And in the end I ended up doing it all because I wanted people to understand how we were doing this and what Virginia had to do, making deals with the mob and stuff like that. Uh, to me, that was all very accurate about the period. And then, once we got on the floor, you know [laughs], it's a big cast, a wonderful cast. She found wonderful people, a great crew, a wonderful cinematographer, Greta, and Elizabeth, uh, who can do anything. And, um, she was able to concentrate on all the different things because I think we hit the ground running as actors, as women. We were so committed to this material. And, um, so those meetings that w-... you see us having, um, it seemed very natural- David Canfield: Mm. Sigourney Weaver: ... you know? And, and, and I think the, the cast that Phyllis found and the way she organized it, you know, and the clothes that we were wearing from Julie Weiss, you know, all of it fed into what this world was, who we were, what was at stake. And, um, so it was sort of like, you know, kind of letting something out, you know? It just sort of- David Canfield: Hmm. Sigourney Weaver: ... was very organic by the time we started, I think. David Canfield: Um, well, then you go to someone you've worked with for over 30 years, in [laughs], uh, James Cameron. Or I suppose that started before Call Jane technically. But for, for [laughs] us who've been waiting- Sigourney Weaver: Yeah. David Canfield: ... uh, that movie will come after this. I- I'm just curious about what that conversation is like, with someone you've known that long, when he asks you to play a 14-year-old girl. Um, I'm sure there's great trust there at this point, uh, but even by your versatile standards that is, again, something new [laughs]. Sigourney Weaver: I know. I know. I don't think John Wayne was asked to play a 14-year-old, may I just say. David Canfield: I hope... I, I, I hope not. I [laughs] Sigourney Weaver: [laughs] David Canfield: ... [inaudible 00:15:49] first for someone [laughs] of your caliber. Sigourney Weaver: I, I had a very early conversation with Jim about this and, um, you know, he was very already committed to this, this kind of character, but who she was, what she was about, was something we talked about at the beginning. Um, I love the choices he made ultimately, that she was part of the family and that... I think we worked together too because when I first saw the pictures of my character, she was so perfect. David Canfield: Mm. Sigourney Weaver: Every hair in place. And I said, you know, "Jim, you know, when you're 14, 13, 14-year-old-girl, that is not how you feel about yourself." David Canfield: Mm. Sigourney Weaver: You know? And I was this tall when I was 11, so I was just, like, a big spider moving around knocking things over. And I felt that it was a more difficult time for Kiri, especially because the family is uprooted in the beginning. And so, it's great because I got together with a... the designers or the drawers, and just brought some awkwardness. That's what he ended up calling [inaudible 00:17:00] now, awkward Kiri, as opposed to- David Canfield: Mm. Sigourney Weaver: ... perfect Kiri. And I think that's, um... I, you know... For better or worse, my awkward self-conscious teenager was able to flow right into Kiri. And, um, I had to work in a completely different way, which is, like, I don't know, kind of letting it flow into me. Letting her... I, I don't know that I'm... that any of us is very far removed from our adolescent, uh, moment, uh, because it certainly, uh, stands out [inaudible 00:17:33] I think for a lot of people. So, I had that great advantage that I- I'm not sure how far I've gotten away from my teenager, for better or worse. But, um, Jim said to me, "You can do this. You're so immature. This is about how old you are anyway." [laughs] David Canfield: [laughs] That's a good... that- that's a good encouragement- Sigourney Weaver: Yeah. David Canfield: ... for that role. Sigourney Weaver: [laughs] David Canfield: That's probably what you need to hear, right? Sigourney Weaver: That's one way to look at it. David Canfield: [laughs] Yeah. Uh, I saw he told The, The New York Times recently that he became the... I think the words he used were, "Kinder, gentler James Cameron," [laughs] while making Avatar 2. Not to say you observed the opposite of that, but did you observe that kind of change in him? Sigourney Weaver: You know, even when we were making Avatar 1, um, you know... When I first worked with Jim, no one really knew who he was. Terminator hadn't come out yet, at least in England, and he had to kind of prove himself every day, which makes you have to feel a little more driven. And now, Jim is, you know... he's at a point in his life where he has his own family, a very stable life, and I think he put a lot of the love he felt for his family, um, into these stories. Uh, they're very personal, in a way. And I think he just, you know... He cast the people he wanted. He wrote the stories he wanted. And then, I think he really relaxed and embraced this experience. He is very demanding, but, uh, no one is more demanding than Jim is on himself, you know? David Canfield: Mm. Sigourney Weaver: So, whatever the hours were, whatever the challenges, like there's a lot of underwater work, you know, it was an adventure, I have to say. And... But I always know that when I'm with Jim, I- I'm gonna be safe, there are- David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Sigourney Weaver: ... gonna be professionals there to rescue me, or what have you. And it's going to be a journey, you know? I, I mean, you don't really know what's gonna happen when you take on this kind of performance capture kind of person. Coming from the theater, I, I felt it was just like I was in a black leotard on an empty stage with nothing there, just my imagination. So, I found that really liberating. I didn't have lights to wait for, I didn't have this and that, you know? And, um, and so I... It's just actor to actor, and our actors are so good, so good at playing these characters that it was... it was exhilarating to be able to do this kind of work without about hair or makeup [inaudible 00:20:08], you know? David Canfield: Yeah. Do you have a sense of, you know, what it will look like? What the movie's gonna be? It must be kind of exciting to make a movie like this, spend so much time on it, then really have no idea what's coming [laughs] in terms of the final product, right? Sigourney Weaver: I mean, I know what I read. I know what- David Canfield: Right. Sigourney Weaver: ... I shot. We shot two and three together. And my little friend, Trinity, who plays my little sister, she was my guest at these Elle Awards last week and she said, "You... Sometimes I can't remember what's in two and what's in three," and I said, "I'm right there with you," you know? David Canfield: [laughs] Sigourney Weaver: Um, so, you know, for us, it will be quite an amazing experience. I hope we get to see it before we have to talk about it. I'm hoping that we will have an opportunity. But no one is gonna see it, really. We're all gonna see it at the same time because that's when it's gonna be ready. I think- David Canfield: Mm. Sigourney Weaver: ... we're all really excited and joyous- David Canfield: [inaudible 00:21:02] Sigourney Weaver: ... frankly, that it's coming out. David Canfield: Yeah. I think everyone, everyone is very excited for this movie [laughs], so we're, we're- Sigourney Weaver: Good. David Canfield: ... right there with you. Um, well, given all these projects and how varied they are, I'm curious what the next few years you want those to look like for you, you know? What do the scripts look like? Do you have maybe a different kind of standard coming off of a string of projects like this for, for what you want to do next? Sigourney Weaver: You know, I've always sort of trusted in the universe to find the right odd project. Um, I am doing a wonderful project with a first-time director, a, a screenplay by Brian Watkins, um- David Canfield: Mm. Sigourney Weaver: ... and it's a sort of three-hander. I play a rather awful character, I must say, but I can't wait. Her best friend is a sheep and they watch soap operas together. Um- David Canfield: That's, that's... I- I'm there [laughs] I'm... Sigourney Weaver: Okay. David Canfield: Um, I, I wonder what the plot will be of [inaudible 00:22:01] on your next movie in, like, five years because they seem to be getting more excitingly off the wall [laughs]. Sigourney Weaver: Yeah. I mean, you know, you're lucky w- when you can find projects like that. I turn down a lot of things just because... Listen, I feel very fortunate to be sent things, but I, I, I, I think I am... I ha- have been spoiled a bit, being able to do projects that are about something more than just the people in them. And, um, you know, I think as one gets older, you know, I, I look at Maggie Smith and I go, "She's going on forever, that's great." Um- David Canfield: Mm. Sigourney Weaver: ... I don't know if I'll do that. Sometimes I think I'll run away to India and really learn how to do yoga or something. But, I, I must say that I, you know, for better or worse, I really love to work. I, I finally feel I kinda know what I'm doing. And I love being part of the older group on a set, you know? Uh, because I feel like this is a business where we all learn from each other, inspire each other, no matter what age we are. Uh, I love that about the business. And, um, so, you know, whatever my goals are or my ideas, I think probably inevitably I'll be pulled back into a project. David Canfield: Mm. When you say you feel like you finally know what you're doing, can you talk a little bit more about what that, that looks like for you? Because, of course, to people like me who love [laughs] Working Girl, Alien, it feels like you've known what you're doing for quite a long time, but obviously, uh, it does... you do feel like you've progressed into something. Sigourney Weaver: Well, once, once I get on the set, I think I just let my instinct take over. David Canfield: Mm. Sigourney Weaver: So, Working Girl, uh, actually my character was based on someone that Mike Nichols and I both knew and liked. It's always good to have a real person kind of to inspire you, like a little- David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Sigourney Weaver: ... like a little bit of lemon sherbet in the back of your mouth, kind of giving you that [inaudible 00:24:04], that little feeling. But, I think that I was... I was discouraged at drama school. I think I took that too seriously. I wish I hadn't. But, um, I think it took me a while to get going. I was very lucky to have Alien as a first movie, basically. That opened so many doors for me. But I was very ambivalent about a film career. Um, I really wanted to stay in the theater. So, I, I think I've grown with my career. And I have... Even though I panic before every job and go, "What made me think I knew how to do this? 'Cause I can't remember anything about it." I think the only good part of that is it really forces you to go back to the script again and again, really immerse yourself so that by the time you get on the set, you've done absolutely everything you can think of, any research, anything. That, you know it up and down and around. And, um, and then you just kinda let it go. So, I, I now trust that. I think I was taught at drama school that I have to make a list of what I'm gonna do each- David Canfield: Mm. Sigourney Weaver: ... beat, and what my, um, intention was. And I worked with Harris Yulin on a, a Shakespeare play early on, and I, I [inaudible 00:25:19]... I was playing Rosalind, As You Like It, and I came in, I said, "Well, I'm not sure, uh, quite what my motivation is here," and he went, "Do you know your motivation every time you come into a room?" And I went, "Well, no." And he said- David Canfield: Hmm. Sigourney Weaver: ... "Well, sometimes she doesn't either." So that kind of was a very freeing thing. So, I sudden realized that the techniques they teach you are if you need them, but if you make a genuine connection with a character, you can just let that go. And I've realized over the years that I'm a very instinctive kind of actor and I just get out of my own way. David Canfield: Hmm. I would imagine with characters like this it's, it's easier to make that kind of connection. Sigourney Weaver: Yeah. David Canfield: Uh, well, Sigourney Weaver, thank you so, so much. Uh, Call Jane in theaters Friday. Important movie. Timely movie. Um, and you're just a wonderful part of it, so thank you again. Sigourney Weaver: Well, thanks so much for having me. Katey Rich: And now, you'll hear me talking to Sheila McCarthy, who if you're trying to find the standout actress from Women Talking, I think you could argue yourself in circles forever about who the best one is in there, but she is the one who I came out of that movie raving about. She's been a veteran of Canadian television and theater for years and years, so naturally she has known Sarah Polley for years and years. She actually played Sarah Polley's mother back when Sarah Polley was an actress. Um, and is part of the ensemble of Sarah Polley's movie, Women Talking, about a community of Mennonite women who have been suffering a series of horrific rapes and abuse, and are trying to decide whether to stay or to go. Um, and her character is really indicative of the movie's really specific humor. Uh, she has a series of monologues about her horses, named Ruth and Sheryl, who you will never forget once you see this movie. Um, but it's obviously really heavy stuff and something that the, the cast and Sarah Polley, the director and writer, and the crew all had to really come together and figure their way through. And, Sheila McCarthy's been acting a long time. She's been teaching acting a long time. And I think she brought a lot of her experience there, um, as for her own performance and just kind of being part of a group with some younger generations of actresses in there, which I talk to her about. Uh, it was so great talking to her. I love talking about this movie. You've heard us talk about it on this show plenty of times, so let's hear my conversation with Sheila McCarthy. Okay, hello, Sheila McCarthy. Thank you so much for joining me to talk about Women Talking. Sheila McCarthy: Thank you. Katey Rich: Um, you guys have been on kind of a journey with this film. There was the Telluride premiere, there was the Toronto premiere. I know it's playing festivals kind of all over the place right now. Just generally, how, how have you been feeling these last few months watching this movie finally emerge? Sheila McCarthy: Well, it requires a lot of clothing, you know? Katey Rich: [laughs] Sheila McCarthy: Um, and a lot of planning. Um, you know, and it's funny, getting back in the saddle and traveling again after two years of COVID, um, is another journey, you know? Going to the airport. But, um, I think none of us realized the impact that the film would have on audiences. I didn't even think about it. And it was, you know, the, the swell of reactions started in Telluride in the streets of Telluride, and it was pretty overwhelming. And it has continued to be so. It's, it's, um... I'm, I'm so honored to be part of this film. I, I, I do think it's quite an important film. And, and we all knew that when we were making it, but, uh, we're starting to reap the benefits of the effect that it's having on people now. Katey Rich: Yeah. You saying you didn't think about the audience is interesting to me because you've done a lot of theater, you've directed theater, you know, the audience is very immediate to you when you do that, so was it not... Was it with Women Talking specifically that the audience wasn't front of mind? Or is that usually something you do, just focus on the work and not think about the result? Sheila McCarthy: You know, I think that when you're in the bubble of filmmaking, I mean, we were so entrenched in making the movie and telling the story und- under the guidance of Sarah Polley that none of us were thinking about the future. We were very much in the moment. It was an incredibly intense experience. I, I kind of equate it like being at the Olympics every day [laughs]. Katey Rich: [laughs] Sheila McCarthy: It was... It w-... You know, I was coming out of COVID feeling kinda like, "Oh, maybe I'm done. I'm just gonna teach a bit. I'll just [inaudible 00:29:34]." And then this landed in my lap and it was like, "Whoa, I have to... I gotta show up every day," and, boy, the bar was high. Katey Rich: [laughs] Sheila McCarthy: And it was, you know... The subject ma-... Everything about it was, you know, intense. Katey Rich: Yeah. Well, you say this landed in your lap, I'm assuming that you and Sarah Polley had crossed paths at some point. She's done lots of- Sheila McCarthy: Oh, yes. Well, Sarah- Katey Rich: ... theater, you guys are Canadian icons [laughs]. Sheila McCarthy: [inaudible 00:29:56] well, [inaudible 00:29:57] I play her mom in a movie when she was 11, and she was formidable then, you know? She was a very serious little girl and I remember really loving working with her. And then, she did this series called Avonlea, based on the Lucy Maud Montgomery' books. And, and, uh, Eugene Levy and I did the very last two episodes of that show. And, again, she was just this incredible presence. And then our paths have sort of wind and winded th- through the years at all kinds of things. But, honestly, I had a Zoom with her, and she was very apologetic for Women Talking because I had to, you know, go through the hoops for MGM and- Katey Rich: Sure. Sheila McCarthy: ... all the bigwigs. And, uh, as the Zoom went on, and on, and on, it was about an hour and a half, I realized how important this film was. And I got o-... [laughs] I got off the Zoom and I, I burst into tears and thought, "Wow, this is a... I haven't felt like this in a very long time." Katey Rich: Wow. Sheila McCarthy: And, um, and then I waited for weeks, and weeks, and weeks to hear, so that was torture, you know? Katey Rich: Was... Now, was that just on the power... Was that the power Sarah talking to you about it, the kind of... Was that- Sheila McCarthy: [inaudible 00:31:09] Katey Rich: ... overwhelming, emotional reaction. What was it... Sheila McCarthy: Yeah. Katey Rich: What did she... I mean, you know, just sum up concisely, I guess, like, what was it about her pitch that was so powerful? Sheila McCarthy: You know, we went through every single word in the script, line by line, and she just... she's just an incredible communicator when it comes to directing. And this, this project is something that she knows, you know... she wrote the screenplay, um, honoring Miriam Toews' book. And I could tell how important it was to her. And it was fun, and it was, you know, a really positive experience. And, I, I just realized how important it was and how important it was gonna be for me to be able to, to play Greta. She thought I was too young- Katey Rich: [laughs] Sheila McCarthy: ... you know? Which is hilarious. Katey Rich: [laughs] Sheila McCarthy: And I, I kept saying, "You know what? Honestly, Sarah, take the hair back, slick it back, take the mascara off- Katey Rich: [laughs] Sheila McCarthy: ... [inaudible 00:32:03] those lovely polyester dresses, and, um, I promise you- Katey Rich: [laughs] Sheila McCarthy: ... I will not [inaudible 00:32:09]." She said, "It..." She said, "It's you're spirit." And I said, "I know. Okay, I'll dampen that down." Katey Rich: [laughs] Sheila McCarthy: "I will just... I will be less enthusiastic for you [laughs]." Katey Rich: But, but spirit is so important to the movie too. Like, there's laughs in this movie and I think that always surprises people to know that there's so much humor in this. And you carry a lot of that too. Like, you have to bring that with you. And, and I, I assume that's something that everyone's doing, kind of keeping the spirit of these women alive in these heavy-duty conversations. Sheila McCarthy: Oh, gosh, I love that. I mean, I loved... I loved Ruth and Sheryl, and I loved... I loved being able to be that person. And, and yet it was very tamped down and it was very... It needed to be, you know, somewhat bottled so that when it did bubble up, it was that much more fun, you know? Katey Rich: Yeah. So, is there anxiety that comes with realizing the importance of a project like this? Like, you get off the phone with Sarah, you know how vital it is and how timely it is and everything, and then how- Sheila McCarthy: Mm-hmm. Katey Rich: ... do you kind of make yourself up for that weight that you have to carry on your shoulders? Sheila McCarthy: You know, we had a two-week rehearsal period, which is so rare in filmmaking, uh, before that, where we talked a lot about that. There was also a crisis counselor on set the, the entire time that we could access. [laughs] I remember, she would just walk by me and look at me and, like, "Do you need me?" [laughs] And I'd say, "You know what? I just really think I just need another Starbucks right now, I'm pretty good." Katey Rich: [laughs] Sheila McCarthy: I, I think the communication between all of us helped a great deal. And, you know, it's also... I'm answering this in a roundabout way, but we, we, we were all together all the time, which in filmmaking is very rare, and that made it a theatrical experience, you know? We were in the wings together, we were on set together, we were on stage together. We were all in one big room, uh, behind the scenes. So, that comradery took care a lot... of a lot of the tension. And, you know, we were working 12, 13, 14 hours a day, y- y- you know? Yes, it was intense and everybody had their moments, but there was so much support from the crew, from Sarah. There was so much care. There was... We were all very cognizant of the two little girls in the movie. Um, it was their first film project, and to, you know, land in something like this. So, I, I sort of equated it like working with an understudy on stage in Stratford. You need to take care of that person, and that takes care of you. Katey Rich: Yeah. And, when you guys were in Telluride you talked to my colleague, David Canfield, and you were looking back on, and then Sarah was really frank about this, about how feedback from the actors, after scenes she would change her directing. Like, she really kind of adjusted it as the project went on. How did that work- Sheila McCarthy: Mm-hmm. Katey Rich: ... from your perspective? What, what did you kind of watch her change and how you guys all kind of figured it out together, how to make this movie? Sheila McCarthy: Well, she was very adamant that the words be spoken, the words that she wrote. And yet, there was a lot of conversation. I think there was a worry that it was women talking and that it would be two hours of women talking a- and would that hold a certain tension, and a certain beauty, and a certain importance? And would it be... would it be dull? [laughs] Katey Rich: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sheila McCarthy: Would it be... would it be monotonous? And, we understood so early on from Sarah that the epic quality of this film, the landscape, the, the, the scenes of our harrowing experiences at the hands of the men, which would be touched on very delicately, would be interspersed in this, and a... and a little bit of comedy, and a little b-... So, I think we just trusted her implicitly that it was going to work. You know, I had one incredible experience with her. We shot my scene where my teeth are coming out and there's blood and I'm sitting at the edge of my bed, um, which was my, my, uh, you know, my rape scene. And, um, the next day, I, I went up to her and I said, "I should have made my bed. Greta would have made her bed when she got up in the morning." And Sarah just went, "Oh, why didn't we do that?" And she came up to me literally two and a half months later on the very last day of shooting and she came into my trailer, and, and everybody had gone home, it was just, just us, and she said, "Do you wanna make your bed?" And she had the production manager put together my entire bedroom, and we went on set and we remade my bed. And she said to the crew, "We are redoing this scene because this is Sheila's idea." And, you know, there's very few directors who have the heart to give an actor credit for something, which was really very moving to me. And we redid the scene and I made my bed. And it's in the movie, so- Katey Rich: Yeah. Sheila McCarthy: ... I, I just... I'll never forget that. Katey Rich: Well, she also told the story at Telluride about, um, you saying sorry, you know, kind of a pivotal scene, which maybe, you know, I don't wanna spoil too much for anyone who hasn't seen the movie yet. But that's also something that isn't in the book. That's kind of straying from the text in some way. Sheila McCarthy: Mm-hmm. Katey Rich: But... And I think [inaudible 00:37:07] so interesting, she said, "Don't say it if you don't feel it." But then you felt it. Like, what w-... what was that like from your perspective of running with a moment? Sheila McCarthy: You know, I gotta say, I... When I watched the movie and I thought [inaudible 00:37:20]... Well, first of all, the, the, the, the humor in it for me is because Canadians are always saying sorry. Katey Rich: [laughs] Sheila McCarthy: So I thought, "Wow, I actually said sorry three times [laughs]." I... And this sounds so pretentious, and I'm not that kind of actor, but I don't remember that. Katey Rich: Mm. Sheila McCarthy: I don't remember shooting it. I don't remember that moment. And I'm... When I watch it, I go, "Hmm. Ah, [inaudible 00:37:43] not bad. But, [inaudible 00:37:45] pretty Canadian." Katey Rich: [laughs] Sheila McCarthy: I don't remember shooting. [laughs] I don't remember. Katey Rich: Does that happen often for you, that you- Sheila McCarthy: No, never. Katey Rich: Interesting. [inaudible 00:37:53] Sheila McCarthy: Never. I'm always very aware. No, no. So, I guess I was, you know, I don't know... Hadn't had enough Starbucks, or too much Starbucks, or... Katey Rich: [laughs] Sheila McCarthy: I, I was.. You know, honestly, working with those actors, with Jessie Buckley, and Claire Foy, and Rooney Mara, and Judith Ivey, like, and Ben, and, and Michelle, I was so fangirl for a lot of it. Like, I was so honored to be with them, so that's probably where my mind was at, like, "I gotta be good," you know [laughs]? I [inaudible 00:38:23] wow. Katey Rich: [laughs] Sheila McCarthy: These are r-... th- these... You know, watching them act was a masterclass for me. So, I was, you know... I was that person [laughs]. Katey Rich: Yeah. I love what Frances McDormand has says... had said about kind of the different generations that go into working on this. You know, there's Jessie Buckley and Claire Foy, and then the, the teenage girls you were talking about. Like, what did that mean for you? You've, you know... You've taught acting, so you've worked with, like, younger generations before. Like, how did that play into your work on the movie specifically? Sheila McCarthy: Well, first of all, I forget how old I [laughs]... Katey Rich: [laughs] Sheila McCarthy: I forget how old I am. So that's probably a bad thing. Uh, but, you know, it didn't matter. We were all so on the same page. I mean, I... As I said, we were all very caring of the young girls. I was in awe of them. Like, they were just so... There's something about watching young actors, and I see this in my classes all the time, they just jump in. They have no fear. They don't yet to be nervous. There's a kind of innocent idiocy to be young and not knowing. And I, I watch that and think, "Wow, I remember feeling that way." So, I, I guess with the young ones... And then, you know, s-... You know, Judy and I, you know, we were just constantly saying to each other, "Wow, this is really special to be doing this after so many years of being in the business, to, to have this [inaudible 00:39:47]." We felt extremely lucky and grateful. And I think sometimes when you're younger and, you know, you're ambitious, you forget how lucky you are. Katey Rich: Mm-hmm. Sheila McCarthy: And I never forgot that. I still feel that way. Katey Rich: I think people are often hesitant to talk about female directors as being different from male directors, because a director is a director, but it does seem like it made a big difference on this movie. Sheila McCarthy: You know, I- Katey Rich: I mean, it's right there in the title. Sheila McCarthy: Yeah. I've been asked that a lot because I've worked with a lot of women. Katey Rich: You have. Sheila McCarthy: I, I, I know. I... My very first movie, I've Heard the Mermaids Singing, was with a woman, and she was fantastic and great. But, I, ugh, I, I really don't like to generalize like that. Katey Rich: Yeah. Sheila McCarthy: You know, I've worked with some incredible men too, who understood exactly, you know, the process, and what they wanted, and what they wanted from me. So, I... Hmm, I suppose there's a shortcut to some language sometimes. And there-... Again, there's a... there's a kind of humor between women, where we kind of understand moods or whatever, I don't know. But, I, I, I don't know. I mean, we had in- incredible men on the set, you know? Our first AD, poor Dan, like, trying to... I mean, herding us like cats, trying to get us to shut up- Katey Rich: [laughs] Sheila McCarthy: ... in order to shoot, um, you know? It, it, it, you know... I [inaudible 00:41:03]... I, I, I really don't like to generalize about men and women 'cause I've worked with so many great people on both sides of the gender [inaudible 00:41:11]. Katey Rich: Well, there's the Sarah Polley difference, I guess. She's, she's the, uh, the unique element on this. Sheila McCarthy: There's no one like her. She's the most extraordinary ordinary person. Katey Rich: Mm. Sheila McCarthy: Like, she's just, you know... She talks about her kids and she talks about getting home in time for them. And, you know, there was a great understanding of that, which was fantastic. And... But then, she talks about the film, she's such an artist. And, um, I really love hearing her talk about ev-... anything, really. Katey Rich: Yeah. Uh, you were saying how you don't think about your age, which I think is exact correct way to approach anything, but I wonder if when working with younger actresses, and you watched the way that they approach being in the industry or what they're learning, do you see a difference? Do you see people kind of starting off in the industry in a different way than you were able to? Just for the way that the industry has changed or what actresses are encouraged to do now. Do you see a distinction? Sheila McCarthy: Yeah. I think, you know, for the young ones now, I, you know... I always tell my students, "If you can think of anything else to do, feel free- Katey Rich: [laughs] Sheila McCarthy: ... to do it," because [laughs] it's so hard. And, you know, you don't wanna tell the young ones how hard it is, but, you know, you spend as much time out of work as you do in work, or you're looking for work. Always. And it is not the faint of the heart. So, I don't like to burst anybody's bubble, but if I'm asked, I will certainly share that. So, I think it's harder now because there's a certain feeling of this... of being a star right away. Katey Rich: Mm. Sheila McCarthy: Of being a social media star right away. There's that pressure on, um, actors to... or actresses to, to be politicizing and being... Hmm. To, to, to do all- Katey Rich: To, to [inaudible 00:43:01] yourself, right? Like, you have to be a product as a person. Sheila McCarthy: To really commodify. And, and, you know, I also think... I... Sometimes I think it's harder in the States. Like, in Canada I get to jump around the mediums a lot. Like, I direct theater, I do theater, I do voiceovers, I do film, I l-... I, I don't have to have that sort of Vaudeville Hook, where I do one thing well and I get to do that one thing well. I, I sometimes think for, for, um, you know, actresses down in L.A., they get to do one thing and it's very narrow. And I- I've never wanted to be that actor, you know? Katey Rich: Yeah. Well, I think of Claire Foy, and Jessie Buckley, and Rooney Mara all have, like, maintained an air of mystery about themselves. Sheila McCarthy: Mm-hmm. Katey Rich: That they've become stars while also not having to be Instagram stars and not having to, to limit themselves, so maybe they... That, maybe that's a part of how you all wind up working so well in the movie together, that they're... that they're- Sheila McCarthy: Maybe. Yeah, I never thought about that. Katey Rich: [inaudible 00:43:53] Sheila McCarthy: Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, the Brits, they're very sort of practical about, you know, it's a job- Katey Rich: [laughs] Sheila McCarthy: ... and move on. Like, you know, people have said to me, "Did you ask Claire Foy about The Crown?" I went, "No, no." Katey Rich: [laughs] Sheila McCarthy: I wouldn't... I wouldn't. Like, I just... I [inaudible 00:44:05]... I, I couldn't do that. Couldn't go there [laughs]. Katey Rich: Are you a fan of The Crown? Or are these people who you know who are- Sheila McCarthy: Oh, God, yes. Katey Rich: ... fans of The Crown? Okay [laughs]. Sheila McCarthy: Oh my God. On the very first scene, there's, you know, Claire washing my feet on the very first day. I'm going, "Oh my God, the Queen is washing my feet." [laughs] Katey Rich: [laughs] Sheila McCarthy: She would hate to hear me say that, by the way. Katey Rich: Yeah. Sheila McCarthy: She would just go, "Oh, for heaven's sake, it's just a job. Get on with it." Katey Rich: [laughs] Sheila McCarthy: [laughs] Katey Rich: She shows up in, you know... The new season of The Crown is in the future, but there's a flashback with her in it and I was just so happy to see her version- Sheila McCarthy: I know. Katey Rich: ... of the Q-... of the Queen come back [laughs] one more time. Sheila McCarthy: [inaudible 00:44:38]. You know, all these actresses, they, they all feel grateful too. Like, there's, you know... there's never an assumption. There's no there, there, you know? I mean, it's, it's... Everybody just keeps going. And, and, um, I had the wonderful good fortune to work with Sally Field once, and she said, "You know, Sheila, you've got to reinvent yourself every five years. You're gonna look different. You've gotta, you know... Every five years you've gotta, you know, reinvent the wheel." And I thought, "Okay. Okay." And, you know, I've been doing this, you know, for a long time and I love it and I can't think of anything else to do- Katey Rich: [laughs] Sheila McCarthy: ... so... Except maybe be a cleaning lady or something [laughs]. Katey Rich: [laughs] Sheila McCarthy: I don't know. But I... but I, I, you know... It's, it's the highs and lows. And right now with this movie, I totally am celebrating this moment that I never anticipated would happen, you know? And it's, it's a lot of fun now to... for us to get all gussied up and do a red carpet. Katey Rich: [laughs] Sheila McCarthy: Really fun. Katey Rich: Do y-... do you feel like you have to sit in this moment and be like, "Well, it might be two more years before you work on anything that's any good"? So, do, do you- Sheila McCarthy: Oh, always. Katey Rich: ... brace yourself for the lows while you're in the high? Sheila McCarthy: Always. E- every job's the last job. Any... Everybody says that, always, you know? And, you know, for sure. Absolutely, uh... Katey Rich: Are you having conversat-... Like, are, are you getting offers or anything... Are you sensing anything changing in terms of what's coming your way with this movie now, now? Sheila McCarthy: You know, a not a whole lot of people have seen the movie yet. Katey Rich: That's true. It's still slow. Sheila McCarthy: So I think it's just I keep getting... I keep getting this from friends and family, "Well, just wait." Katey Rich: [laughs] Sheila McCarthy: And I go, "[inaudible 00:46:14]." You know? I've had big movies open. I remember I did a movie with Liza called... Liza Minnelli called Stepping Out, and I had another Disney movie and I turned down all this work when these two big premieres happen- happened, and nothing. Crickets. Katey Rich: [laughs] Sheila McCarthy: And I thought, "Boy, what a business." Katey Rich: [laughs] Sheila McCarthy: So, you know, we'll see. We'll see. I... Who know? I try not to take anything for granted or, or get too excited. Katey Rich: Well, you said when Women Talking came, you're like, "I don't know, maybe I'm done. Maybe I'll just teach." Does that still feel like a realistic possibility for you? Or do you think you'll just keep getting dragged back on screen forever? Sheila McCarthy: Well, you know what, I... After... I love directing. I really love it. Like, it's a new hat for me. And I've got a couple projects coming up to direct that I really look forward to. So, I'm one of those actors who really likes to work a lot and be busy 24 hours a day, so, um, yes. I mean, I love to act. Yeah. Who knows? Who knows? Um, we- we'll see what happens. Katey Rich: How new is directing? I didn't realize that that was something fairly new for you. Sheila McCarthy: Yeah, no. I've directed a couple plays. And, honestly, it's... I just... I love... I love the lack of nerve. Like, I, I don't feel any sense of pressure on myself. It's not about me, it's about them, so I can... I feel quite open and confident, you know, doing that. Katey Rich: Now, is that something you talked to Sarah Polley about? [inaudible 00:47:37] when the movie's done, 'cause, you know, the, the leap from acting to directing, she's fallen right there. Sheila McCarthy: Yeah. I mean, you know, when we were shooting she was going, "Yeah, I really think I might wanna act again." And I'm going, "Well, be careful what you wish for." [laughs] Katey Rich: [laughs] So you'd warn even her away? You'd say, "Don't do it. Don't." [laughs] Sheila McCarthy: Yeah. God, yeah. You know, it depends on each project. Each project is so different. I've had some of my best times in the last few years on really tiny budgeted independent films with, you know, working with the crew. I... Right before, um, we went to Telluride, my daughter directed me in a film called Civil, and it's a, you know... it's an indie apocalyptic film with, you know, 20-year-olds. And, I got to hold a gun and, and it was fantastic experience in the woods way up in Northern Ontario. And that was great. It was fun. So, yeah. Katey Rich: How... Yeah, getting directed by your daughter, that's a- Sheila McCarthy: Yes. Katey Rich: ... role reversal [laughs] and hard to prepare for. Sheila McCarthy: And it was sort of, like, I would hear, "Mom. I mean, Sheila." [laughs] Katey Rich: [laughs] Sheila McCarthy: I was very proud of her. It was... it was... it was a great experience. And I got to see her every day, so, you know, I haven't seen her since, so that's good [laughs]. Katey Rich: Oh, yeah. Well, you were talking about how you raised your kids on film sets, so that's- Sheila McCarthy: Yeah. Katey Rich: ... brought her exactly where she is. Sheila McCarthy: They said to me recently... They, they said [laughs], um, "Mom, you never took us camping." And I said, "What are you talking about?" Katey Rich: [laughs] Sheila McCarthy: "You were in a trailer your whole lives with craft service right around the corner." But, you know, they're both six feet tall and they both are sort of in the arts, but neither of them become actors. I think I... I think... Their dad was a... was a, uh, stage actor, and, and I think we killed... we killed [laughs]... they saw how hard it was. Katey Rich: [laughs] Yeah. It seems like if that's what you're teaching your students and you've gotten that message across to your daughters as well [laughs]. Sheila McCarthy: Exactly. Exactly. Katey Rich: That does it for today's show. We'll be back on Thursday with our usual roundtable conversation. In the meantime, find us on Twitter @HWD, or on our own, I am @kateyrich, and David's @davidcanfield97. Our editor and producer, as always, is Brett Fuchs.