Josh Wigler: Hello, and welcome back to Still Watching, the television podcast from Vanity Fair. We cover entire seasons of the hottest shows on television. And right now we are diving deep into the hottest one of them all, _House of the Dragon_, the Game of Thrones prequel series on HBO. I'm Josh Wigler. And to discuss _House of the Dragon_, Episode Six with me, I am joined once again by Richard Lawson. Richard, hello, it feels like it's been 10 years since last we talked.

Richard Lawson: I promised the listeners we are the same people who were on this podcast [laughs] last week.

Josh Wigler: Just played by different podcasters.

Richard Lawson: Right. Yeah, yeah. Uh, it does... Yeah, that, we, we had a big time jump, um, and some of my predictions about what, what was, that was gonna look like, were proved very wrong. Um, but it's an exciting, I feel like we're kind of starting to watch a new show almost.

Josh Wigler: It does feel a little bit like a second pilot here in _House of the Dragon_ and I do not think coincidentally it is once again directed by Miguel Sapochnik, outgoing co-showrunner here on _House of the Dragon_ and an iconic director in the Game of Thrones franchise. He's once, uh, once again behind the camera on this episode, Episode Six, The Princess and the Queen. Uh, a very aptly titled episode of _House of the Dragon_, Richard.

Richard Lawson: Yes. And had I seen that title before watching the episode, I would have been like, oh, okay, so Rhaenyra is not gonna be queen when this [laughs] when this episode starts, which is what I assumed was gonna happen.

Josh Wigler: Well, if we had watched the trailer for this episode, after Episode Five, uh, I think some of our predictions probably would have been very, very different. Uh, I don't know if you caught that at all, Richard, but HBO really just decided to let everybody know that Viserys was going to be fine. right there front and center.

Richard Lawson: ... I didn't watch that. [laughs]

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: And the minute he walked out, I was like, oh, [laughs] okay, I spent maybe 20 minutes talking on this podcast last week about what his death meant. And, uh, he's still alive, just minus an arm.

Josh Wigler: Minus an arm, but still standing, uh, Viserys Targaryen 10 years down the road. At least he's alive. He doesn't look great, but he looks a lot better than I think both of us thought perhaps he would look 10 years down the future.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, the, the oozing sores seem to have gone away. So that's, that's good, at least.

Josh Wigler: Gone away, or at least covered up. Uh, so-

Richard Lawson: Yeah, he, he found some new makeup from across the narrow sea that really works with his skin tone. 

Josh Wigler: I have to tell you, I hope we never solve this one. Uh, I would like to never know if it's still there or not.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. 

Josh Wigler: But we shall see as we are moving into a decidedly new era for _House of the Dragon_. Uh, much, much has been made about the fact that there was going to be a major time jump here in _House of the Dragon_, that there was gonna be a big shuffling of the main cast of _House of the Dragon_. And indeed, we have arrived at that moment as we have said goodbye to Milly Alcock, who is no longer playing Rhaenyra Targaryen. Emily Carey no longer playing Queen Alicent. We have Emma D'Arcy in the role of and Olivia Cooke leading the way as Alicent moving forward.

Um, before we even break down the episode scene by scene, Richard, which we will definitely do, I wanted to get your top down takes on this how you're feeling about the new Rhaenyra and Alicent, how this is sitting with you. I think that this has been among my biggest questions about _House of the Dragon_.

Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: Is how is this recasting going to sit with folks? So the floor is yours my friend. How are, how are you feeling about this?

Richard Lawson: I feel pretty good. You know, I, I had never seen Milly Alcock in anything before, and so I was really pleasantly surprised by what a good actor she is. And I, I kind of assumed that she was like 17, but she's actually in her 20s. Um, so she could have played slightly older, I suppose, but the minute you see Emma D'Arcy, you're like okay, this is an older woman now, like, you know, she, this is like a full adult.

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: Um, so the replacement does make sense, and then Olivia Cooke uh, i- i- it's been a, you know, one of those kind of you're happy to see her in a movie or a TV show for years now. So, um, I think they're really good and that's not a knock on the previous actors who were both great. Um, but I, yeah, the thing I was nervous about, which is what I'd be kind of like watching a whole different character. Um, I think they've done the continuity pretty well.

Josh Wigler: I think so too and I'm, I'm obviously biased because I know the characters really well from having read Fire and Blood, the book this show is, is based on. Uh, so I have the, I have the arcs have these characters fairly clearly in mind for myself, so I can see the trajectory from Milly Alcock to Emma D'Arcy pretty easily, and from Emily Carey to Olivia Cooke as well. But I think that the, the, um, like a lot of solid bedrock, right? Exists in those earlier performances that allows for these new versions of these characters to thrive in this episode, but I also think just the, the, the, the, the performances themselves of what Emma D'Arcy and Olivia Cooke are bringing to the table as, uh, Rhaenyra and Alicent, so strong in their own right, I'm to understand that there were really no meetings, no conversations between the two generations of these characters. Um, so that's fairly impressive to me. Um, I think it speaks a lot to the clarity of the writing of the characters as well.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Uh, I feel like in, in that regard, Richard, it doesn't feel like it really missed a beat. And once again, we've, we've talked about this a little bit on the podcasts as well, there is sort of this frozen in amber quality about some of the enmity that exists between these characters from when we last saw them to where we pick up a decade down the line.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, it's just kind of compounded and festered and, and-

Josh Wigler: Yes.

Richard Lawson: But it's interesting to find, you know, throughout this episode, and Alicent, who has hardened from the sort of more innocent person she was, uh, before the time jump, whereas I kind of feel like Rhaenyra, in some ways, has kind of softened a little bit. She's, she's not quite as impetuous or whatever, because she's grown up and matured a bit and also had a decade or however long of that in that kind of waiting room wondering like when, when am I actually gonna take the throne if I do at all? Um, so it's interesting to see them almost flipped a little bit, but, but still feeling like the people that we just spent five episodes with.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, another question that I, I have, uh, and I don't, I don't have the answer to this one. So I'm curious to get your take and to talk it through. Do you get the sense that Rhaenyra and Alicent have had a major conversation about, hey, I thought we were doing all right. What happened? Uh, you know, when, when we're kind of seeing them in this, in this episode, I don't get the sense that Rhaenyra has a ton of information as to why Alicent really so strictly turned against her.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, that's a good point, um, because obviously, we know what, what, what Alicent's, you know, what her grudge is. But yeah, I'm not sure. Uh, it doesn't seem from the context clues we have in this episode. It seems like basically most of their interactions are sort of forced by Queen Alicent. Um, or during, um, you know, the king's council-

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: ... meetings, which they both seem to be on. Um, but, but, but that's in front of other people. So they have to at least abide by some stiff formality. Um, some pl- pleasantry. Um, but yeah, I kind of feel like when they don't have to be together, like if they haven't been, one of them hasn't been summoned or whatever, they just don't speak.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Um, well, I'm gonna be really curious to know what everyone else out there thinks about the recasting. If you are immediately gripped by these new versions of Rhaenyra and Alicent or if it was a little whiplashy for you, write in. We would love to hear that feedback. Stillwatchingpod@gmail.com, that's the way to get a hold of us. Stillwatchingpod@gmail.com. Let us know what you think of the new Rhaenyra, the new Alicent. We would love to get those takes from you for the podcast next week. Um, Richard, I think it's time to dig into-

Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: ... The Princess and the Queen, Episode six. Let's take a very quick break. Uh, and then we will hop all the way in back to Westeros, 10 years down the line. Stay tuned. All right, Richard. 10 years, 10 long years have passed since that horrible wedding, uh, since, uh, the wedding that, uh, that shall be, uh, is it the green wedding? Is that what we're calling it, you think, moving forward?

Richard Lawson: Yeah, that, that, that works.

Josh Wigler: The green wedding works for us. 10 years down the line and we are brought back into _House of the Dragon_ with yet another laborious labor scene-

Richard Lawson: [laughs]

Josh Wigler: ... here on _House of the Dragon_ your home.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. [laughs] What a, what a, what a brutal parallel [laughs] to the first half of the season. Um, but a really effective way to just throw us in, in medias res into the, the new time. You know, um, there's struggle but there's also change and growth and development, uh, in the form of, you know, all of these children that now exist and are old enough to, well, do things on windowsills. But we can talk about that.

Josh Wigler: [laughs] Yeah. Uh, the longer we can go without having to talk about that one. Uh, I would, I would love to make it a good chunk of time before we have to get there, but we do have to get there. But we begin with, with Rhaenyra is, uh, in, uh, in the middle of giving birth to her new baby son who is going to be named Joffrey after her husband, Leanor's late lover who we lost at the end of Episode Five. Um, but before he even gets a name, before we even have Leanor meet the child, Richard, we have the baby in the world for all of, what? 10 seconds before the command of the Queen to present the child to her immediately comes down the pipeline.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, partly, I think just to fuck with her, but also-

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: ... obviously Alicent has to keep an eye on every one of these kids, you know, because as she says later like, like th- this is now in play, like, we are in this now. And, um, you know, what she inspecting the baby to see, oh, maybe it's frail? Maybe it's this, maybe it's that? I don't know. But like, it's also just, yeah, an exertion of control. And, um, clearly Rhaenyra doesn't want to be the, the weaker party so she drags herself out, and it's a really brutal, long, extended kind of walk, uh, up to the, the king's chambers. And, um, you know, I, I felt it. It's, it's almost like a version of the shame, shame wa- walk.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, I think that's a really good pull. Uh, you know, it sort of has that, uh, that West wing vibe, the Westeros wing of the walk and talk through the hallway, but with such a Game of Thrones spin on it. Uh, you know, of she has just finished giving birth to this child and she is immediately on her feet. Uh, a line that I really appreciated in this moment is one of the people who is there helping her deliver the child says, "You should remain in bed." She says, "Yeah, I should."

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Uh, but, but she can't, you know, because the, the stakes are, are too high. And you have to imagine at this point, knows that, um, Alicent's eyes are on these children, as we're gonna get deeper into this episode very soon here. In fact, Alicent is looking to see who, who do these children look like? Do they look like your husband, Rhaenyra? Or do they look like somebody else who might have a role to play here in King's Landing? Um, she is very invested in that and I think Rhaenyra's protectiveness of the secret, uh, is, uh, rightfully placed, uh, and needs to be around for this introduction of her, of her child to someone who used to be her best friend and has quickly become her worst enemy.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. And Alicent isn't really subtle about that. I mean, she literally says to Leanor like, "Well, keep trying. Maybe one of them will look like you someday." You know-

Josh Wigler: Yeah, straight out of the book that one.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. [laughs] Oh, is it really? Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: It's a good line and well-delivered. And, and yeah, I mean, I, I think the interesting thing about Alicent, you know, her knowledge of this, I mean, it's, it's pretty much an open secret, it seems like, a- among the, you know, these very elite few, um, abou- about the parentage of Rhaenyra's kids. But, um, that is a really dangerous to be even, you know, even gesturing toward. Not, she's not wielding, Alicent isn't wielding it yet, but like, you know, it's, it's interesting to see her, um, kind of committed to the stakes of this, you know, so-called game, um, which are pretty deadly.

And, and the Alicent we say before the time jump wasn't quite there, and she seems to have gotten there now. And I, I think it, it complicates an already interesting character.

Josh Wigler: She had just shown up to that place. Right? You know, she just got there. She put the green dress on. She signaled for war. She may be recruits Ser Criston, it certainly seems by this episode and the relationship they have, that Criston is very much team Allison 10 years down the line. Um, but yeah, this is what 10 years of that mood looks like. [laughs] You know, you, you said festering, uh, and I, and I think that that's absolutely right, the seething resentments that have built to this place. Alicent is a lot more comfortable in the viewpoint. Uh, I don't know if comfortable is the right word, but is a lot more fixed in the viewpoint of, frankly, her father. That conversation that her father had with her at the start of Episode Five is going to be very much reflected in the conversation that Alicent has with her son, Aegon, on the other side of that scene that I don't want to talk about until we absolutely have to talk about it. Um, but it is, it is really interesting the way that she's kind of becoming her dad in certain regards.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, which was probably inevitable. I mean, I guess, one strategy for her would just be kind of, like, shrink into the background.

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: You know, I've been watching a lot of Survivor lately. And-

Josh Wigler: Ooh, look at you.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. And, and there are the people who get toward, to the end, because they just kind of coasted or they hid behind someone. And there are the people who were make strategic moves. And it seems like Alicent has definitely chosen the latter. and the, the thing with Criston is interesting, because I don't even feel like he's pro-Alicent. He's just really anti-Rhaenyra. And, uh, but that, that works. You know, it does the trick, but he does have to catch himself sometimes with his aggression because I think there is still, in Alicent, some old sort of primal affection for her old friend and, um, I'm just really curious to see how that develops, if they'll ever be aligned at any point by the end of this season or next season or whatever, because I think there's still something, a connection there.

Josh Wigler: Doesn't feel like a final two duel, uh, showing up between Alicent and Rhaenyra anytime soon.

Richard Lawson: [laughs] Right, yeah.

Josh Wigler: I have to say. Uh, uh, there's a Joffrey proct joke in here somewhere-

Richard Lawson: It's somewhere [laughs]

Josh Wigler: ... but I just, I can't quite get it. Um, so Leanor is gonna join Rhaenyra on this long walk to Queen Alicent. Uh, some, some dialogue that I thought was, was pretty biting. Uh, Sara Hess is the, is the credited writer of this episode of House the Dragon. Uh, where he asks her, Richard, "Was it terribly painful?" Uh, is his first question.

Richard Lawson: [laughs] 

Josh Wigler: And he tries to relate by saying I took a lance through the shoulder once. 

Richard Lawson: And she's like, "My condolences." 

Josh Wigler: Yeah. "My deepest sympathies." [laughs]

Richard Lawson: I, I, I like the way that that, that their relationship has developed too. You know, there's obviously some resentment. It's not jealousy on Rhaenyra's part, it's more of an out roll of the eyes at all of Leanor's, you know, kind of antics. But there is, they are definitely, back to the Survivor, they are in an alliance. [laughs]

Josh Wigler: Yes. 

Richard Lawson: And, and they know that, and I think that that has over the years bred some affection.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, for sure. Uh, so they make it to Alicent's chambers. They get past a very curt nod from Criston Cole, uh, the most together he seems in this episode. And Alicent, uh, she is really playing the part, "Rhaenyra, you should be resting." Uh, and she's, she gets her a cushion. She allows her to sit down. And here comes old King Viserys, uh, the new old king on the block. Down one arm. Um, what do you think he's gonna be missing next week, Richard? It feels like every... We're just shrinking away this guy.

Richard Lawson: Maybe his hair.

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: I mean, that looks like it's almost gone anyway.

Josh Wigler: It's on its way.

Richard Lawson: Um, but yeah, I mean, it's, it's interesting, I, I really did think we were done with him. Um, but that he's still around, is, I, I, I kind of like because, you know, he, he, hasn't really learned from his past. Like, he's, he, you know, he's kind of a sentimental guy. He's, he's kind of a softie in his way. And like, clearly, that's still a big part of him. But that that, that functions more interestingly now, because his, well, his daughter and, and his wife, uh, are, are now old enough that they can be sort of the aggressive ones, and he can really just, you know, be in that sort of grandpa role. Um, but he's not, you know, toothless. So I'll be curious to see how he factors into things.

Josh Wigler: He isn't, but he is, as he's gonna be, I believe the phrase willfully blind gets bandied about twice in this episode, and at least once that is applied, uh, to the Viserys himself. Seemingly, the only person in Westeros who does not know that Breakbones is the true father of these children. Um, and as you mentioned earlier, Alicent is gonna to look at the, at the child, uh, after Viserys has said, "Oh, he has your nose," uh, to Ser Leanor. Uh, Alicent is gonna look at the child and tell Leanor, "Sooner or later you will make one that looks like you." Very, very loaded line.

Richard Lawson: Yes, yes. Especially, um, you know, with the, the casting, you know, we have black actors on here.

Josh Wigler: Yes. 

Richard Lawson: one, one of them is, is Rhaenyra's husband, and, uh, obviously that would be an indicator of something I would think, but, um, I, I don't know that the show is ever gonna address that, that kind of matter, but, um, it is, it adds an interesting texture to everything.

Josh Wigler: When Rhaenyra and Leanor get back to their chambers, we get to meet, uh, her two oldest children, her two oldest sons, uh, Jacaerys aka Jace, and Lucerys aka Luke. Uh, just easy enough to go with Jace and, and Luke. And certainly, that's how they're gonna be mostly referred to on the show. And now they have a younger brother of their own, and really meeting the full family, uh, because we are getting reintroduced to Ser Harwin Strong aka Breakbones.

Um, were you surprised at his, his role in this? And I guess my question also, to put more of a point on it is, did the show up to this point, through five episodes, do enough to establish Breakbones for you at his role in this episode? Forget his introduction here as the father of these children, but the emotional beat at the end of the episode of losing this man. was enough of that work done for you to really get invested here?

Richard Lawson: I don't think so, honestly.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, I do think that that's fair.

Richard Lawson: I, I think if I hadn't talked to you for this podcast, and, and you kind of were like, yeah, tha- that's an interesting family to pay attention to, um, I think he wouldn't have registered at all. It also doesn't help that he looks a lot like Criston- and is often in similar costuming. [laughs] And, uh, yeah, and maybe there's a sort of deliberate point there were of, like, I guess Rhaenyra has the type, you know, that isn't, you know, her uncle. Um, uh, so yeah, I, I wish they had put that foundation down a little bit better. There's nothing from the past five episodes that I would have excised in favor of that, but maybe to find a way to just integrate him a bit more. So when we reali- realize what's going on, where he has these, it's a tragedy, he has these children who he can't call his children. Who, you know, he can be close to in some ways, but always whispered about. Um, and I think there, there would have been more depth to that, um, if, if we knew him a bit better.

Josh Wigler: I'm of a couple of minds about this. Because this is something that we- we've talked about a bit, of one of the things that the Game of Thrones universe does so well, is they throw a character at you that feels very realized, that feels like you could follow their exploits into a different adventure. Uh, your, your Rhea Royces of the world, uh, as a most recent example, and I think Breakbones fulfills that. I think that there's so much to this character, especially with his role to, with Rainier and his role as, um, his relation to these three children, especially that there's more to explore here. There's more to, more to, more to unearth.

Uh, and yet, this is how you get to care about these characters being removed from the board and what that means for the people that they leave behind. That being said, I absolutely agree that more work could have been done. I, I love Breakbones in the book as he is written, you know, he, this, roughly around the same period of time is, is when he is written out of the book, but I think the book just makes him so much more of a clear character. And part of me wonder, to your point of not excising anything from the previous five episodes, maybe can we push the Breakbones death a little further down the road? Like, can that be-

Richard Lawson: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: ... in episode seven kind of deal?

Richard Lawson: Yeah, I mean, I think that when I reviewed this, the show and I'd seen the, the first five episodes. Um, one of the, the bigger criticisms I had for it was that unlike the original series, which really took its time laying track, you know, um, things happen suddenly on occasion, but like, there was a lot more build. And I think this show is moving at a s- at a swifter clip and, you know, something happens, two scenes later we see its consequence, you know. And someone says something, two scenes later that thing is addressed, you know.

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard Lawson: And, and I, and I think that with this, it's like, we could have sat with break bones and his relationship with Rhaenyra and those children a bit longer, just let it steep a bit more, so we really feel... I mean, the episode is playing up this horrible death, this, you know, fiery death as like a big moment, but I and, you know, I don't necessarily... I didn't feel it, I guess. And I kind of wish I did.

Josh Wigler: I don't think you're gonna be alone in that. Uh, I, I really liked what, uh, Ryan Corr, the actor was doing with Breakbones, the goofy grin. Him meeting Rhaenyra in the, uh, the alleyway of King's Landing. His father, who also we are losing in this episode, giving him that curt nod of instruction of yeah, go break up the fight, at the end of the wedding.

Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: These were all really fun details for me, as somebody who knew that our time with break bones would be short. I just didn't think it would be quite this short. And considering how important he is to this family, specifically, I feel, I do feel like we could have spent more time with him. And I also think that there's gonna be a, a decent degree of the people who, certainly, the people who aren't listening to this podcast or other podcasts or you know, doing their extracurriculars on _House of the Dragon_, those people on Sunday nights, who are like, "Wait, this, who is this guy? I don't, I don't fully understand who this guy is.

Richard Lawson: Um, yeah.

Josh Wigler: That's a shame.

Richard Lawson: I guess they kind of just wanted to get us to the point where we realize what Larys is doing and how powerful he is and sinister he is. and also, we wanna have the sort of avenging, warrior, Rhaenyra, activated, you know [laughs].

Josh Wigler: Also, with Larys, like what he's willing to shave off. You know, like, how far he's willing to go. That's his bro- that's his brother, that's his dad.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: He's willing to do that as sort of his first major move. This might be a scary guy to, to, to look out for. So yeah.

Richard Lawson: Yes.

Josh Wigler: Um, okay, let's go to the Dragonpit. Always a good idea.

Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: Uh, we are going to have, uh, four of the, of the children here, uh, that are, that are gonna be newly important to the show. Certainly, in this era of _House of the Dragon_. We have two of Viserys and Alicent's children. We have two of Rhaenyra and Leanor's children, aka, uh, Breakbone's children. We've got, uh, Jace, who is trying to bond with the dragon, Vermax, to sort of solidify the deal of his bond with this specific dragon. Again, the riders really get the one dragon, one dragon will have many riders, but this is a very big deal for Jace.

And it seems like everybody in the room has a dragon here. Uh, we have Prince Aegon here who is played, uh, I believe that that's Ty Tennant, who is David Tennant's son. Uh, so an- another interesting Doctor Who connection, uh, here on _House of the Dragon_ who's playing Prince Aegon, and-

Richard Lawson: You're telling me that wasn't Finn Wolfhard? [laughs]

Josh Wigler: I thought Finn Wolfhard I could see. I was thinking some Timothée Chalamet-

Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... baked into there as well. Uh, there's Aemond is his younger brother who is currently without a dragon. And is going to be pretty annoyed, uh, when his brother and his two cousins present him with the pink dread. Uh, just a flying pig.

Richard Lawson: [laughs]

Josh Wigler: Uh, this, this kid, Aemond, really is not a, no sense of humor on this good.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, I think that this scene is so well done because it's in, in, in quick, you know, fashion, it really sets the, the scene of this kind of so- this very weird social dynamic that these four boys have and the other kids too presumably. Um, of like this is my uncle, but I technically have more power than him- because I'm gonna be in the line of succession way before he is and you know. And, and, and that kind of like moments that, that, um, Aegon has later where it's like, you guys aren't just like k- friends playing around anymore. Like, this is, we have to think about this seriously. And I think that, that the scene in the Dragonpit does a really good job of showing that they are still young, they're still pulling stupid pranks, but there's a new tension to that, that they really need to be more cognizant of.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, I think also it's, it's a really great job on the show's part of setting this here, um, for, you know, the like the courtyard battle that we're gonna get into a few scenes from now, um, of just the generational trauma that's trickling downhill. Right?

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: You know, Rhaenyra and Alicent were in many ways not responsible for the positions that they were, that they were in and the, the increasing tension's based on the positions that they are, they're put in, whether that's by birth in the case of Rhaenyra, or appointment and, um, you know, manipulation by the part of Alicent's father. And now here they are with their own kin, with their own children. And this, this, you know, this tension that Alicent especially is going to be instilling in Aegon a few scenes from now, uh, is, uh, it's, it's just ha- it is happening again, as they say on a totally different show.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you feel for them. I mean, that's, you know, even though we see two of the kids being, you know, jerks in the scene, like, I, I was thinking about this recently, because of the death of Queen Elizabeth and, and now we have King Charles and like, that those kids and Harry leaving. It's just like, what a shitty thing to be born into, in a way, you know, you can have... Yes, you're rich, and you have privileges and all that stuff, that, that helps. Um, probably better that than being in Flea Bottom or whatever.

But like, it, it just, it's, it's, it's, it's weird to think about in real life, and also in the world of this show, of like that moment where you're like, all right, now I have to actually think about the, what I was born into and what my role is, and I have to kind of forsake, basically, the rest of my life, um, to o- to just like devote myself to this kind of dynasty, I guess.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Um, Aemond is not going to be content with the arrival of the pink dread. Uh, Aemond wants to go deeper into the Dragonpit. I think Ron Burgundy would tell him this was a bad idea.

Richard Lawson: [laughs] Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Uh, but he's going to descend deeper and deeper towards this groaning, glowing, uh, you know, lure down in the, in the bowels of the Dragonpit, and he will see this one dragon that nearly roasts him alive. Uh, and Aemond is lucky to escape with his life intact. Uh, and he, when he is getting chastised by his mother, one scene later, uh, he does not seem to have really regretted his actions. I don't know how much he learned from trying to woo this dragon, Richard.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. And it seems this is not the first time this has happened. You know, this is a pattern for, for him. And, uh, yeah, I'm, I'm curious, like, you know, I remember watching the original Game of Thrones and being like, is "Tommen ever gonna be like in, in this or-

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard Lawson: ... I forget the daughter's name.

Josh Wigler: Oh, uh, Myrcella.

Richard Lawson: Myrcella, who, you know, and they, they have their moments both and tragically. Um, but like, I, I think that these scenes with these kids, uh, uh, I, my hope is that they're telling us that like, these are gonna be major characters going forward, that this dynamic is really important. Maybe not necessarily this season, but like we need to get to know these people, um, to better understand where the story's going.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, I think that you can count on some of these characters being fleshed out, uh, a good deal more, especially with the way that time has been moving. And what I'll say is, while the big, big recastings of Rhaenyra, and Alicent are underway, we do not have other actors that are gonna be stepping into those roles. Um, some of these children, at the very least, you will see other actors at a certain point in time.

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: So you can look forward to that for sure. Uh, I thought it was very interesting the scene with Alicent and her daughter, Helaena, uh, who is, what is she doing just studying, studying bugs?

Richard Lawson: I guess so.

Josh Wigler: She learning the way of the leeches, Richard, so that she can better heal her father.

Richard Lawson: She wants to be one of those creepy maesters who like [laughs] like skulk around the castle or something.

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: Um, yeah.

Josh Wigler: Runs, runs in the family.

Richard Lawson: Or ma- maybe it is for dad. Yeah, that could be it.

Josh Wigler: She has an interesting line when Alicent is talking to, to Aemond that, that I clocked, that I just wanna put a pin in, uh, where she tells her son, Alicent says to Aemond, "You'll have a dragon some day," and Helaena sort of just offhandedly is minding the worm she's looking at, and she says, "He'll have to close an eye." Um, we'll revisit that. We'll see what that looks like at another point in time.

Richard Lawson: Hmm. 

Josh Wigler: Um, Alicent is going to confront Viserys about the idea that these children, uh, that Rhaenyra's kids do not belong to Leanor. Uh, Viserys just wants to talk about horses. He'll do anything to talk about how, uh, "Don't even think about that. That's not a thing. Uh, they're, they're Leanor's kids. Let's not look at this. These are wild accusations. Just put them away. Uh, don't even think about that."

Um, I think of Viseyrs 10 years down the line who is still really set, Richard, on Rhaenyra sitting on the Iron Throne. He does not wanna engage any of this. He, he wants nothing to do with this discourse.

Richard Lawson: He... Yeah, I mean, I think that that is born of a genuine love for his daughter. But also, he doesn't wanna admit that he kind of screwed a lot up when he made that decision. And it was, and it was probably the right decision, you know, in, on principle, but like it's already created problems. It's about to create a lot more, you get the feeling. And, uh, I think he's just like la, la, la, la. No, no, it's fine. Everything's fine. We're all one big happy family. Don't worry about it. Sometimes a black horse can give birth to a brown horse or whatever. You know, he's, he's just kind of saying like, I, I don't, I don't know what you're talking about. I don't see any problem.

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: But he does. And I think he does deeper down know that like, this is a really messy situation that he is at the center of.

Josh Wigler: I think we've talked about this a good amount of, of, uh, Viserys knows the landscape. You know, these things aren't necessarily getting by him. I think he is just somebody who has been so overwhelmed and ill-suited for this job to do anything, uh, about some of this stuff. Uh, so I, I think that that read, uh, resonates within me in terms of how I'm reading this Viserys, of I think if he really was alone, and he was allowed to really confront it, I think that he would see that Rhaenyra, uh, and, and Harwin are a, are a thing.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Uh, and that these children are the product of that relationship. As opposed to Rhaenyra and Leanor, but to admit that, it's just too much. It's too much the, the way that that all falls apart. All of the untethering, all of the, all of the knots to untie from something like that, uh, makes the, the [inaudible 00:30:46] not that is prevented George R.R. Martin from finishing his book series look pretty easy to untangle in comparison.

Richard Lawson: [laughs] Yes, indeed.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Um, so Alicent is going to vent, uh, with Criston Cole. Uh, that of course, the king knows. He's just making excuses. He's really on her side. And he has some horrific things to say about, uh, about Rhaenyra. He calls her brazen and relentless, uh, a spider who stings and sucks her prey dry. And then says something that crosses such a line that even Alicent can't weather hearing that, uh, about rain Uh, and, and Criston has to say, "That's beneath me, Your Grace. I, I apologize for that."

Richard Lawson: Yeah. And in the UK, that word carries a little less weight than it does in the US, and pre- presumably in Westeros. But we're not gonna say it [laughs].

Josh Wigler: We're not gonna say it. Uh, it shan't be me who is-

Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah.

Josh Wigler: Uh, I'm, I'm, I'm grateful that you've accepted me into your home here at Vanity Fair.

Richard Lawson: [laughs]

Josh Wigler: Uh, I'm not gonna be the one who does that on a Vanity Fair podcast or any podcast.

Richard Lawson: So my question about this scene and about Criston, in this episode, or and maybe going forward, is, is this all pettiness about Rhaenyra breaking his heart, turning down his proposal? Or does he now care about, like, propriety of the kingdom? Or, or of, you know, or is he like sworn in, in sort of not just in word but also in like-

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard Lawson: ... feeling to Alison. I don't know yet. But like, right now, it's funny to watch this sexy, noble character from earlier episodes become this petty, like, like kind of angry, kind of incel adjacent kind of thought.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, I've been take, take adjacent out, I think, um-

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: I, I... It's, it's really fascinating to me, and it's something that has, has, uh, I think it's not wor- it has not worked absolutely for everybody. But one of the things that I actually am quite enjoying about the time skips that we've experienced on the show is how m- how, how much you can like, certain injuries just live with you for a long time. Um, and, and certain experiences just stay with you. It doesn't matter days, months, years, a decade, um, you can still be living in that moment. A part of you just was, was left there, uh, and your, your left to carry that with you.

Um, I think Criston Cole still nursing the wounds that we saw him, uh, you know, uh, sustain, uh, at the end of Episode Five, throughout Episode Five, that carrying with him into the very next episode, would emotionally track for me, for sure.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Um, how he would present that though, Richard, uh, to the degree that you're talking about. I think that's interesting. I think that's an interesting observation. Like, oh, it's for the realm. It's for the realm.

Richard Lawson: Right, right.

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: I think, I think these scenes also do a really good job of like, you know, conjuring up, imagining what it would be like to just kind of age into adolescence and adulthood, where basically you hang out with the same six people all the time, in one, and you all live in the same building. [laughs] Like, you know, it's just like-

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard Lawson: ... like, there, there, there are, obviously, we have really dire matters of state and like deadly things swirling around all this, but some of the energy that we're seeing in, in kind of a clever way is just like just bored, pampered people who are like sick of each other [laughs] you know.

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard Lawson: Uh, and I think that that's credible to me, like that these, these people are not, you know, impetuous teenagers anymore, but like they haven't really actually had a chance to like mature separate of one another. And so of course, these old wounds don't heal very well, because there's no air to, to help them heal.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, and no leeches either. They're all being-

Richard Lawson: Right [laughs].

Josh Wigler: ... devoted to the one guy. All right, we've reached the scene. Uh, we have no choice but to discuss it. Um, Richard, I'm old enough to remember when, uh, Prince Aegon was playing with his porridge, uh, and that that was a big deal. Uh, here we have him standing in the window, doing his business, uh, as Alicent walks in, and I don't know. Uh, it's just a lot. This is a lot for me.

Richard Lawson: She, she doesn't seem fazed by it, which is kind of funny.

Josh Wigler: Completely unfazed. He kind of almost seems a little unfazed as well.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, I mean, he's like a little embarrassed, but he's just like, eh, whatever.

Josh Wigler: For five seconds, yeah.

Richard Lawson: Uh, I would have jumped out the window.

Josh Wigler: [laughs]

Richard Lawson: Uh, you know, like, if that was me.

Josh Wigler: Right, yeah.

Richard Lawson: Um, but, you know, that window thing, again, we have, like, this show is doing a nice, little job of subtle echoes.

Josh Wigler: Yes.

Richard Lawson: Like you have Commons and you know, in a very similar window. Um, and this case, it's I think showing how, that, um, Aegon is, um, a bit high on his own supply. Like he's gazing down at his, I mean, imagined subjects or whatever, like doing that. And, um, I think, again, that's, it's a, it's a, it's a bold, uh, way to sort of tell us more about the character, but it does. I- I- It's effective.

Josh Wigler: I think it tells you a lot. Yeah, I think it tells you, um, how... I think it certainly should angle your thinking a little bit. And like, either it's the readiness of this guy, should the day come that, uh, you know, he is in this position where what happens when his father dies. And if the worst comes to worst, as Otto Hightower has predicted, and now as Alicent is going to instill in him, that, "You are the challenge to Rhaenyra, Aegon. It's you, just by living and breathing."

Should that day come where Aegon needs to step into some position of leadership, either this kid is not ready for it now, or it's a little bit of a window into the future of what he might be like in that position anyway.

Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Uh, which is to say, I think, yeah, I, I think the, the metaphor is very apparent of someone who could not care less about the people beneath them.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, exactly.

Josh Wigler: Um, so Alicent is going to really try and instill this in him. Uh, you know, s- stop playing around with your cousin's, uh, stop making nice-

Richard Lawson: And yourself.

Josh Wigler: ... with Rhaenyra's kids. And yourself. Please cover up. Uh, and, uh, you know, focus up because this is very serious.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Uh, I think is what she's trying to say.

Richard Lawson: She says, you know, uh, her sons are not going to be your playthings for much longer, you know, like, or, or if they, you know, they aren't already, you know. And, um, that I, from her perspective, this is a mortal issue. Like, this is a really, really, really serious issue. And to see that, I mean, there's, there's kind of a heartbreak in there because like, she just wants these kids probably to be, you know, just have fun with their cousins and be normal, but like, they are like his nephew.

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard Lawson: Um, but they can't, you know, and, uh, you know, she had to learn that lesson at a young age. And she, you know, her son is now about that age too. And she's like, we have to get serious here. And this I mean, I think it's gonna be a hard road for that kid, I'm, I'm, I'm guessing.

Josh Wigler: Um, so we go across the narrow sea at this point. We're gonna to spend a little bit of time in Pentose and we're going to catch up with what has life been like these past 10 years for Prince Daemon? And it turns out that that flirtation at the end of the wedding between Daemon and Laenor Velaryon has manifested in the form of a full on marriage. They've got a family, they have two twin daughters, Baela and Rhaena. Uh, and on top of that, Laenor Velaryon has a dragon and it's not just any dragon, I don't know, did you, did you clock the significance of, of her dragon Richard?

Richard Lawson: She said it was the biggest, right?

Josh Wigler: Yes.

Richard Lawson: Uh, but is there... Wha- what else am I missing?

Josh Wigler: So, so this we, this, this is another one where I do think, I don't know what the solution is. Do we need like the, the glowing title card on this one? But I think it's, it's, it's worth really underscoring, this is Vhagar, uh, the dragon. This is the oldest living dragon in Westeros. This is one of the three and the only surviving, currently, dragon, uh, dragons that, uh, were part of Aegon's conquest all the way back when the seven kingdoms were, were united as one.

And throughout her appearances on the show, uh, a couple of times Vhagar has been named checked. But that scene when Laenor was 12-years-old, and going on that walk alongside, um, I guess, her future brother-in-law, uh, in Viserys, um, she was asking about Vhagar. Uh, has anyone seen Vhagar? Where is Vhagar? I hear he's nesting, uh, somewhere off the coast of The Narrow Sea. Somewhere between that scene and whether it had happened. You know, by the time we were at the wedding, I'm not sure. I don't think so as, as per the show, but maybe, but somewhere between that scene when she was 12 and where she is now as Daemon's wife, she has claimed Vhaga, the largest dragon in all of Westeros as her own. Feels like something that would have been nice to see on screen.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah, because, uh, you know, I, I still don't think I fully understand where her family, you know, 'cause I, from the original Game of Thrones, in my mind, the Targaryens were the only people who rode dragons, but like, clearly there's another family that does at least, and I don't quite get how, uh, Leanor and her family like h- where are they exactly fit into that sort of lore and power structure.

Josh Wigler: It's the, it's, yeah, so it's the Valeryon descent. Uh, it's that, it's at the sea snake and his family, house Velaryon-

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: ... they, they descend from Old Valyria as well. So the blood of the dragon runs in their veins too. Um-

Richard Lawson: So the, the dragon is a valerian thing, not a, not specifically a Targaryen thing?

Josh Wigler: Right, right.

Richard Lawson: Okay.

Josh Wigler: So they, so they do have that connection and they have a whole mess of dragons at, at their disposal, uh, as well. Um, so, so that I think is something that could be clear too.

Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: Uh, I think is, is totally fair to level at the show. And I, I really, especially seeing as we, we have Leanor in this episode, and, and then we do not, um, would have been a nice thing I think to, uh, to, to have on the show, to see how did, how did that come together? Uh, feels like a pretty important piece of the puzzle that's, um, not all together here. Maybe some exposition further on down the line will, will, will help this out.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: But, uh, something that I felt was missing.

Richard Lawson: I agree. And I think in general, you know, obviously, Daemon was a huge important character in the first five episodes, and I don't think they're done with him by any means. But like, this segment of this episode, all of his scenes, uh, I don't quite, I'm not... I'm like having a hard time imagining where he's gonna fit back in, like what his goal is gonna be.

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard Lawson: Like, obviously, he, and I would assume he and Rhaenyra still have something of a, I mean bond or something, you know, that with each other, even though there is obviously a lot of, uh, resentment and tension between them. But like, I don't know, I'm just curious like, so maybe this episode, it was introducing us to Deamon's life and further expounding on an interesting character in Leanor, and then by the end of the episode, they're like, oh, no, just kidding. That's, that's all kind of done. And now Daemon has to kind of reenter the, the regular fold of the show.

Josh Wigler: Right. I mean, he, it's like the, it's the John Wick thing maybe, right?

Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah.

Josh Wigler: You know, uh, "People keep asking me if I'm back." You know, he's, he's saying that he's retired from the game, right? And, and Leanor is kind of accusing him of that as well, the further that they're gonna get into conversation. So right now, they're in Pentose, across the narrow sea in Essos. Um, they are being pitched on sticking around, uh, and taking up residence here effectively.

We're also hearing that the triarchy, the same organization, uh, that backed the Crabfeeder once upon a while, that they have aligned now with Prince of Dorne and they are retaking the step stones. And so past is prologue, right? Uh, history is repeating in so many different ways here on the show, and Daemon is sort of being approached to be an ally in this situation, and maybe help us out the way that the Tar- that the Targaryens once did. But when Leanor is going to speak with, with Daemon, she's going to express that I just wanna go home, I don't wanna be here, I want to go back to Driftmark. I want my children to be raised like the, the badass dragon riders that they ought to be. Um, and for whatever reason, Daemon just wants to read books. Um, it seems to be where he's, he's at right now. So any kind of through line on that, you're not seeing terribly clearly right now.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, no, I mean, it is interesting that in some way, Daemon is kind of living the life that Criston proposed to Rhaenyra.

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard Lawson: Like, let's just leave. Like let's live well, elsewhere, you know, and kind of be our own people. And even though Daemon 10 years ago was so power hungry, now he's had some time away and he's like, "What was that really all about?" Um, and so I'm just curious what the death of Leanor will kind of reinstill in him. Like, will he just kind of take her longing to be home and make it his own?

Josh Wigler: Right, right. So we get to this courtyard scene back in King's Landing. Um, and everybody is training under the tutelage of Criston Cole. Uh, we have him, uh, fighting off Aegon and Aemond at one point, and Ser Harwin Strong, who is the new commander of the City Watch, not for long, for two reasons, uh, is gonna be walking by and basically saying, "You're showing so much favoritism to these two. You should be being applying all of your methods to all your pupils," and yada, yada, yada.

Aegon at Criston's urging, is going to really knock the living daylights out of Jace. Uh, Harwin does not like that. Criston calls Harwin out as the real father of these kids. And it's a, it's a whole big mess. Uh, it's Criston who's now on the ground getting his head punched in. That at least was satisfying.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, and this is not some simple fight that everyone's like, alright, break it up. Break it up. No, this is serious. This has like really, really big consequences, you know. And I, I think that the show, uh, it does that in an interesting way. Where at first I was like, oh, okay, they're having a scuffle, whatever. And then only a few scenes later, do you realize, no, that was a really big deal that that happened.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, it was, it was confirmation in, in the eyes of a lot of people, uh, that even the willfully blind Viserys has to kind of take pause. Not enough that he is going to, uh, you know, go the extreme route of, of executing, uh, Harwin Strong as his father, as Lyonel certainly fears. He's gonna tell Harwin, when they're gonna speak later and, and Rhaenyra is overhearing it, that the only thing that's standing between you and the headsman is Viserys's willful blindness-

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: ... uh, towards, uh, towards Rhaenyra and refusing to believe that this could possibly be true, but short of that, it's just so public. It is the, it is the rumors made manifest.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah. And, uh, you know, I, I, it makes me kind of think, I'm, you know just a little theory I'm developing, that like when it comes to it, I feel like Criston will be dead at Rhaenyra's hands, you know.

Josh Wigler: Mmm.

Richard Lawson: Because my, my guess is that she will be vengeful about what happens to her when, uh, maybe not right away, but like this is now like, now, Criston has provoked something really bad and, and kind of you can't, a bell that you can't unring, you know. And so, I think that, that, that schism between them is only gonna deepen and can probably in, classic Game of Thrones style, only be, you know, resolved in one way.

Josh Wigler: I feel like this is a good moment to just address Lyonel Strong, uh, who is going to try and resign, uh, as a result-

Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: ... of, of this seen. Him, him yelling at Harwin. Him taking his son aside and, and trying to instill in him the, uh, the consequences of what he's done, the stakes that are at play. This is going to be a final episode for Gavin Spokes as Lyonel Strong as well, who I think is a character that was really richly realized on this show. Um, one of the few people even in his resignation, Richard, who has like the kingdom first, like the good of the realm and the nobility of the realm. One of those really rare examples of people on, on this, uh, on, on a Game of Thrones show that actually has something other than himself and other than his pride in mind as a priority. I hate to lose that guy.

Uh, they really, they really ma- he specifically, Gavin Spokes, the actor really made me feel for, for Lyonel Strong.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: This is one character that I, I am really, I think, uh, I, I hope that other people are sad to lose him as well, because it's a real loss. I do think it's a big loss for the show.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah. And, and a, a tricky character, in that, you're like, well, okay, h- when did he know that this was going on with his son and the, you know, heir to be? Um, like, you would think strategically, he'd be like, I'm gonna cut it off, or you have to go home. [laughs] Like, like at least, this cannot happen. You know, this is disastrous for all of us. Or if kind of like Viserys, he was sort of looking the other way? You know, I don't know. And I, we won't know now, unfortunately. But like, um, yeah.

I mean, it's just like these people keep, Rhaenyra keeps drawing people closer to her and then not, even in her, in her adulthood now, not really thinking through what that could mean for them. I mean, and it's, it's usually something bad.

Josh Wigler: Which is, which is funny to, to, to, you know, start getting into that conversation, considering this next scene, uh, where her husband comes back, uh, on, he is not aware that this is all just happened, that there was this huge public fight. And that Harwin has basically been outed, uh, as the, as the true father of these kids. Uh, and Leanor is here with his new partner, uh, Ser Karl, uh, who is, uh, talking to him about the war and in Step Stones, and all of this is happening again. There's a Tyroshi general with a, with a purple beard, who has a name that I am going to botch, uh, Racallio Ryndoon, I think is the name of that character that's being referenced here. Uh, I'm gonna have to hear someone sound that out, maybe gotta go back to the audio book. But he's pining for the old days of war. He's, you know, he's bored as well.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: And he just wants to go back to that. He's done his duty, he's gonna tell Rhaenyra. And Rhaenyra's like, "You haven't really done it enough. Uh, you have to keep doing it, in fact, this is not something that you just do once and then it is over. You have to stay here. And if you're not gonna listen to reason, then you'll have to listen to my command."

Richard Lawson: Yeah, she's like, you've been on enough gay cruises that ended war.

Josh Wigler: [laughs]

Richard Lawson: We're, we're not doing that anymore.

Josh Wigler: Not again.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. But you see, like, you know, the, in this scene and then later, like, that she's not like nothing about Leanor's like private life bothers her at all.

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard Lawson: You know, she's like, it's fine. I, this is what we'd agreed upon, you know, so long ago. It's just that like, the state, the circumstances have changed, like, wake up, you know. Um, and, you know, he seems kind of almost like, like Aegon, Leanor seems someone who just refuses to acknowledge that he is, you know, much closer to the center of all of this than he wants to be.

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: And, you know, I don't know. I mean, maybe it's just past history with gay characters on the show, but like, I don't feel like he's long for this world in, in some fashion. You know, I think, I think he's, he's on very thin ice. It feels like.

Josh Wigler: He at the, he at the very least, is not thrilled with this current life.

Richard Lawson: No.

Josh Wigler: Uh, and there's something that he is, he is longing for that he's not getting in this situation. And whether or not he's gonna be able to get that, he is gonna accompany Rhaenyra to Dragonstone by the end of this and Ser Karl is invited too. Uh, so we'll see.

Richard Lawson: It's funny. It, it, you know, speaking of Matt Smith, like it's, it's, this arc is sort of similar to, uh, the one we saw Prince Philip-

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: ... play by Matt Smith have on the crown.

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: Uh, where it's like, my wife is the important one. I'm kind of frustrated, like, I'm bored. I wanna go gallivanting around adventuring. You know, I don't wanna quit the Navy, which Prince Philip had to do, you know? Um, yeah, there, there... I wonder if there was some parallel thinking there when, when this whole story was being written.

Josh Wigler: First gentleman, uh, tough gig.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Josh Wigler: Tough gig, it seems like. Uh, well, speaking of Matt Smith, we are going to focus on him again, uh, in Pentose. Uh, really the point of this is a lot of what we've been talking about already. Uh, is that he's just saying, I don't really miss Westeros at all. I've got really nothing there. I wanna be out of the Game of Thrones. Uh, I would like to have my own spin off, please. And I would like for it to just be me reading books. Uh, and Leanor is not buying it. And I don't think that the audience is particularly buying it as well.

And so I don't think the audience is particularly believing it either, but I think we've talked it through. I don't think that there's too much more to, to get into there right now. Um, the small council scene I think is really great.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah.

Josh Wigler: Uh, and I think a really important scene too. Uh, can I start with the unimportant piece that is, uh, uh-

Richard Lawson: Please.

Josh Wigler: Uh, I, so I don't know if they'll do this on the show. They mentioned, they're talking about Riverrun. Uh, they're talking about the Tarlys, uh, you know, Lady Catelyn's family from Game of Thrones.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: And they mentioned a Lord Grover, and they mentioned Lord Grover's son, but they do not name his son.

Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: And I believe Lord Grover's son in the book is also unnamed, but Lord Grover's grandson, and Lord Grover's great-grandchildren do have names. And I swear to you, Richard, on, on all the things that I swear upon, uh, their names are Elmo, Kermit, and Oscar.

Richard Lawson: No.

Josh Wigler: And it's not, uh, it's, it's not impossible that they will show up on this show [laughs] at some point in time.

Richard Lawson: Oh my gosh.

Josh Wigler: Because at least one or two of them definitely have fairly important roles to play in some of this stuff [laughs]. And I really wanna know, does _House of the Dragon_ have it in it to have Sesame Street named characters on its show in important roles? Um-

Richard Lawson: Well, Warner Brothers owns Sesame Street now, right?

Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm.

Richard Lawson: Like it's, it's on HBO max. So they [laughs]-

Josh Wigler: For now.

Richard Lawson: ... they, they, they can borrow the names. That's so funny. What a little, like, clearly, you know, they planted in there as a kind of a joke, but now they [laughs] actually might have to do it.

Josh Wigler: They might have to do it.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, that's funny.

Josh Wigler: They have to go there.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: I think George was tired. George was tired. You know, he's trying to get books out. Um, so everybody at the small council, uh, no one's looking particularly great, which I, I thought was worth noting. Viserys is in pain. Um, there is the, this, this man, Lord Beesbury, who we haven't seen a, a ton of, but is a character that I really liked in the book, uh, who is thinking that there's... They're briefly talking about, um, the, the Brackens and the Blackwoods. And that's the feud that we saw at the, the start of Episode Four with the, with the young boy who killed the other kid, um, or stabbed the other kid at the very least. Uh, he thinks they're still talking about that. They've moved on to, to another subject. I think the, the point being between that and the very open enmity between Rhaenyra and Alicent, this is just not a table that's all together.

Richard Lawson: No, no, it's not. And i- i- it's a really a great scene for a number of reasons. But my favorite is just seeing, um, Alicent and Rhaenyra. Like they are powerful voices there.

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: You know, not just because of their stations, but because they, they're smart, and they're strategic and they're, you know, they, they think, they think ahead. And, um, you know, it's interesting that we spent, you know, so much time in the first, well, let's say maybe two episodes of the show, with everyone being like a woman ru- ruler, we can't, we can never do it. And now all of a sudden, there are two women on the king's council, you know.

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard Lawson: Granted, it's his wife and his daughter, but like, still, like that feels significant. And, um, they are not, uh, just sort of passive members of this committee, they are very much involved. And, uh, again, I think it's, it's a more, it, it, it shows more of the sort of interesting character development specifically for Alicent.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, they're the only two characters that are really talking sense, uh, in this scene.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Uh, you know, they're, they're, they're speaking with like, you know, full volume, uh, you know, fully, fully broadcasting their beliefs on what is right for the realm, the situation in the Stepstones, the fact that this is rearing its head once again. It's just emblematic of no one knows how to fix the sink. Uh, and, you know, they have different opinions on it. Um, that Alicent says that the cost of fortifying the step stones, it just wasn't worth it, considering the funds that we do have.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: And Rhaenyra is the one thing, fortifying it would be less expensive than if we have to go to war in the step stones again. Um, so it's this very cross conversation between the two of them, who feel that they're both really, really right, uh, in their positions. And it's Rhaenyra who tries to smooth it over, uh, by, by offering her son's hand in marriage to Alicent's daughter, to Helaena. We'll join our houses. Everything will be great. We will align ourselves once and for all. We'll put all of this behind us. We were friends once, we can be friends again. Um, and Viserys is very interested in this, but it is not really falling, uh, on, on Allison's ears.

Richard Lawson: Right. So Rhaenyra's kid marrying Viserys's kid. So that's wha- that's-

Josh Wigler: We gotta do some math, I think, real quick. [laughs]

Richard Lawson: Nephew marrying aunt? Is that right?

Josh Wigler: Uh, so it would, it would be, I think that that is correct.

Richard Lawson: Mmm. Okay. [laughs]

Josh Wigler: Which we've done versions of-

Richard Lawson: Sure. Yeah, yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... on Game of Thrones, you know.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, it's just, yeah, it's very [laughs] it's just, it's funny that they're just, I mean, I know we're just in the world of the show, but they're just like, there's no discussion about that. They're like, "Yeah, sure, of course. Like why not?" [laughs] Yeah.

Josh Wigler: It is, it is always worth taking a beat to just, like, say that out loud, you know? [laughs]

Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah. And it's like, I'm like that, that meme of the lady with like, the math figures, I'm like, whirling around her, her like. I'm just like, wait, that is the connection. Right? You know.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, yeah.

Richard Lawson: Um, yeah. I mean, and obviously, that doesn't seem... That proposal seems to be swatted down pretty quickly, right? Like, or is, or am I... Should I be keeping that in mind for the future?

Josh Wigler: She, she certainly says we'll consider it.

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: And if it was Viserys, and if it serious was a stronger person, maybe in that moment, he would have just said, "Yeah, let's do this." Uh, but Alicent, who has asserted herself a whole lot more-

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... uh, is basically saying, "Well, we'll talk about it privately. Thank you for offering this publicly in front of everybody." There's also the moment where, uh, Rhaenyra.

Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: Uh, Alicent points this out. Uh, I don't know how you read this. Did you read this as like a sign of friendship? Is this a, is this like a display of, of power? Uh, I think it's, it's certainly very thematically resonant in, in this room filled with men, this very personal moment that happens here.

Richard Lawson: I think it's a mix. It's a mix of sort of, um, a knee-jerk thing out of the past of like, empathy and like, oh, you know, like, you have something on your, you know, on your teeth or whatever.

Josh Wigler: Right, right.

Richard Lawson: But there's also the other aspect of it, which is like this kind of performative pity, like, Oh, poor, you. You know, kind of mean girl stuff.

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard Lawson: And, um, but like I think both of those are in there, which is, you know, again, why this dynamic between these two characters is so intriguing, and I think, um, it's gonna be an ever evolving thing. Um, because there is still, again, some, some care passing between them, um, I think, or maybe I'm being naive.

Josh Wigler: Um, no. Keep hope alive. Uh, that's never done anybody wrong on a Game of Thrones show.

Richard Lawson: Right. [laughs] Yeah.

Josh Wigler: So, you know, maybe the torch won't always be green. Um, so Viserys and Alicent, they will, they will go Viserys's chambers. And yeah, I guess, she does basically outright say like, "Yeah, that deal is gonna be done when I'm in my grave."

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Uh, you know, she's really, she's really out on it. Um, Lyonel is gonna come in, he's going to try and resign. And Viserys, short of hearing Lyonel outright say the reason, he wants to hear the words. Uh, he wants to, he wants to hear it in, in plain English. Uh, why are you resigning? What is this huge rumor? Uh, what is this huge shadow that has been cast over you that is causing you, my, by far, most trusted and most effective advisor in my entire reign-

Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: What is it that's causing you to resign so suddenly? And Lyonel out of protection of his son, uh, won't say it. He won't say the words. So he does not get to resign. Your resignation is rejected.

Richard Lawson: Just two grandpa's, you know, talking to each other. We're not talking about the grandkids, even though they have the same grandkids. But-

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah.

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: Uh, yeah, you, you do feel for Lyonel, 'cause it's like, what an impossible situation to be in, you know? Like, you do this and that looks bad. You do that, and that looks bad. You know, it's just like, there's no winning really. Um, uh, and, you know, I, I... Is this the moment you think, where Viserys is kind of lifting that veil of willful idiocy? Like, do you think he actually wanted to hear it or?

Josh Wigler: Hard to say.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: I mean, because I think if, if Lyonel does say it, Viserys, especially with Alicent in the room has sort of like, I don't know about the... I don't know if there's an exact action plan that's in place, but one thing kind of follows the other. Right?

Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah.

Josh Wigler: You know, and I don't know that that's the way he wants this to go. Um, so I'm not sure what he's hoping for from, from Lyonel. Um, I don't think he wants to hear that. I don't think he wants to be right about this.

Richard Lawson: No. I mean, he's-

Josh Wigler: Um, but if given the opportunity.

Richard Lawson: He's a meeker guy surrounded by a l- a lot more aggressive people, you know? And, um, you know, we haven't really seen him, it's not like, you know, opening part of Game of Thrones and Ned Stark behead someone, you know. Like, like, like, Viserys is more, is gentler and, and whatever. And, um, yeah, I think a big part of him not wanting to acknowledge it, he's like, "Well, then I have to do something about it." [laughs]

Josh Wigler: Right. Right, yeah. And I was-

Richard Lawson: Just, just taking care for him in a way.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, right. Exactly. But I, I think that Lyonel Strong in this moment is a, is a very compelling mirror to, to Otto Hightower who is going to be evoked in, in just a second here, uh, about a lot of where we are right now. You can lay at the feet of Otto Hightower. Viserys certainly did when he fired him, right? How much of this did you see? How much of this did you know? Uh, how, how much did you put on, on my path of putting Alicent here and having your grandchildren, uh, you know, potentially be in line for the Iron Throne? How much power did you know you could go and grab?

Where here you have, uh, yet another Hand of the King who also has the King's, uh, shares the Kings grandchildren, uh, who can't really... who, who's not comfortably living with that. Uh, who does not have these grandchildren because of some grand design of his.

Richard Lawson: No.

Josh Wigler: Some angle at the throne. Uh, and in fact almost Criston Cole-ish, cannot help but, you know, come out with the truth or close to the truth. Um, I just thought it was a really, really interesting mirror of those-

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... those two characters. We're gonna go and see, uh, we're gonna go and see Lyonel Strong's other son, who we have not seen in this episode yet, and who has been slowly tiptoeing his way into the narrative, and then decides to just cannonball into the pool as of this episode, Larys Strong, aka Larys clubfoot. But who I guess is Alicent's dinner buddy. Uh, they, they dine together-

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... with some regularity, it seems.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, their, their dynamic is, is, uh, yeah, I don't really know what to make of it yet. Like I... It doesn't seem like it's romantic. Um, but, you know, we see Larys, you know, in pre- pre-time jump, like give Lady Alicent a really crucial bit of information-

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard Lawson: ... that has huge consequences. Um, and maybe we're to understand that in the ensuing 10 years, that she was, in some ways, learning from him and sort of under his tutelage in a way. And, and maybe that's, uh, that's her kind of new flintiness and cunning is maybe partly owed to him. Um, but clearly, as we see, in this episode, he is willing to go a lot further than she is. And, um, that, uh, you know...

So I'm, I'm curious, like, did he... Is he overstepping? Or is this like, him just asserting himself that much more?

Josh Wigler: Right. Um, and the way he's gonna, he's gonna talk to her about this at the end of the episode makes it feel like he kind of has the viewpoint of, "No, this is what you wanted. And if you burn me, I'll burn you." And I don't really know how that's going to ultimately work out unless some, you know, some bit of, uh, what we're talking about here of like the last decade of their relationship, how much information has been passing between the two of them?

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: What kind of, um, you know, what kind of collateral does Larys have over, over Alicent over the course of those years? Is there some, some version of mutually assured destruction between the gossip exchange between these two people?

Um, but what we get from this scene between Alicent and, and Larys is Alicent, once again, talking about how, uh, her husband just refuses to see the truth. And that she feels like the king cannot be turned away from, uh, cannot be turned towards the truth, especially with, uh, with Lyonel Strong still on the council. And at the very least, if her father was here, he'd be giving him the right information. And Larys, may be playing a part to a little, to a little bit of an extent, um, maybe being, uh, you know, authentic to some degree too. I think that they're leaving it vague at the moment, at, at the very least, of your dad wouldn't be able to give, um, your husband unbiased counsel, uh, because he's your father. And she says, "Yeah, that's the point. I need someone who's gonna be partial to me."

Richard Lawson: Right, right.

Josh Wigler: And Larys will walk away from that interaction and be like, okay, cool. Then I'll chop off the tongues of some prisoners in the basement and I'll have them burn my dad alive.

Richard Lawson: [laughs] Right. And my brother.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, my brother too, if he's there.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah.

Josh Wigler: Uh, yeah, this is a real coming out party for Larys strong. Uh, you know, this is, uh, you know, I don't, I don't know. This is really, uh, you know, from, from off the backboard, this is just, you know, he was really just lurking in the distance for a minute, and now he is right in our faces.

Richard Lawson: I don't think it's an accident that his name rhymes with Varys, you know.

Josh Wigler: Yes.

Richard Lawson: Um, and I think that the show had been needing this, you know. Daemon had sort of been the villain, um, but one that whose villainy was complicated and, and not always, you know. Uh, we, we wanted a sort of Little Finger, creeper, kind of s- s- you know, almost also a little bit Tyrion.

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: Um, you know, that that kind of maligned, ostracized, but secretly very powerful kind of figure. And, and I think this is a good debut, I mean, you know, we've seen Larys before but this is really his coming out party. And, um, and it's, I think it's, he's really well played by the actor, uh-

Josh Wigler: Matthew Needham.

Richard Lawson: Matthew Needham. Yeah. Um, and I love the way that they, toward the end of this episode, you know, have him almost doing some sort of voiceover about, like, the perils of love and having children and all that stuff. Um, it's really, he kind of is now setting the sort of thematic mood, uh, for the show, which I, I appreciate.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. He's creepy, you know.

Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah.

Josh Wigler: There, there is something very creepy about him too. As the, as, as we go into the dungeons and we, we see, uh, everybody, uh, lining up to get their tongues taken out. And, uh, he's just, you know, like gesturing people over, okay, next, with his finger. You know, it is just, um, it is, it is really, really, really, you know, bone chilling. Uh, and, and I think you're right, I think that this is a, this is a Game of Thrones type, uh, that we are, we are now firmly fixing in _House of the dragon_. Not really the like, you know, the tension-relieving of a Tyrion Lannister, right? Like this is, this is actually the opposite of cutting through the levity, I think [laughs].

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Like, or giving us some levity rather. Uh, still wish that we had a little bit of that. Um, but what we are getting at the very least is the schemer in the dark, you know, the, the chaos is a ladder, uh, character.

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: Uh, so he's climbing. He's climbing right now.

Richard Lawson: He doesn't wanna be king, you know, he can't be, I don't think. Maybe, maybe he sees a path for that. I don't know, if that's his goal, but like better to be kind of right behind the ruler-

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: ... than the ruler your- itself.

Josh Wigler: Pick a path and, and try to make it work out, I think, seems to be, uh, where, where he's going. And, uh, whether that's a straight line, or very zigzaggy, I think, uh, remains to be seen. But I think the fact that he's going to make this move against his own family very quickly with you know, uh, he's been in three episodes, essentially, uh, I think really indicates to us that for this character, there's nothing he won't do. Uh, so I think that they very effectively conveyed that in this episode, that this guy's gonna be willing to do just about anything to, to suit his needs, whatever those needs might be.

Um, we lose Leanor Valeryon in this next set of scenes, Richard. Uh, we, we find ourselves really back in the, in the same situation that the Viserys was in and that Queen Emma was in in the pilot. Um, which, uh, dawns on me now, just like framing it that way that we are sort of in pilot number two. Uh, once again, I think history repeating itself to a certain extent.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. Yeah, you know, and I think there was a bit of foreshadowing where, um, Leanor said, I would rather... I wanna die dragon rider's death, not, you know, sort of, just some pampered person sitting in a palace. Um, and then that's, in some, in some ways what she got, you know. Um, I didn't think it was gonna be so soon, but, um, but I think it was interesting work, you know, clearly like the, the maister whoever took Daemon aside, he was like, "All right, well, here are options, and they're not good," you know.

Um, that, that the show didn't make Daemon make that choice, right? You know, that, that at least gave that to Leanor, wh- which was like this, this was done on her terms, which it very much wasn't with Viserys.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Uh, she, she gets up and she goes and she approaches Vhagar, uh, and has Vhagar, uh, incinerate her, and Vhagar is, is reluctant to do so. Uh, that this old dragon that is bonded with Leanor does not wanna do it, but ultimately succumbs to the wishes of his rider. Uh, and she is gone. And in the book, um, she actually does not quite make it to Vhagar, if I'm remembering this right. I think that she, she dies en route to, to Vhagar.

Richard Lawson: Oh, okay.

Josh Wigler: But she, she does, uh, I don't remember if she had given, if she had given birth and the, the baby didn't survive. And then she goes... I have, I have to refresh myself on this portion of the book. It's different though. Uh, it's different. In, in this instance, she gets to go out, uh, the dragon riders way, uh, as you, as you mentioned before.

Um, but Daemon watches that and Daemon is there. And I think that we are left to wonder where that's putting him and where, where that's putting his daughters, and, and how they're going to fit back into the story. Obviously, all of them are just brutally wrecked by what has happened here. We'll check in with them again in sort of this episode ending montage that's coming up.

Um, but first, we're gonna have a final meeting between Ser Harwin and his kids who don't know that he is their father, uh, at least not officially. Jace suspects it. He wants to know, "Is Harwin Strong my father? Am I a bastard?" And Rhaenyra is gonna tell him, "You're a Targaryen. And that's all that matters." Um, but this scene of Harwin leaving, maybe even especially now in, in, hindsight, Richard, I wonder if it plays even more tragically?

Richard Lawson: Yeah, no, I, I think that that was kind of the moment where I realized that like, for the most part, there had been 10 years of the closest these people get to harmony, you know. Like, like, yes, it was an imperfect situation, but like their dad was around, you know, that maybe they didn't know that he was their dad and then he couldn't... No one could say it out loud. But like, they were a family. And then because of matters of state and whatever, it has to be broken up. And I think that only I would imagine hardens Rhaen- Rhaenyra that much more, and she had her 10 years of relative, you know, comfort contentedness whatever you want to call it, uh, and now that is definitively over.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, and I think this is, this is gonna manifest in the form of her deciding to leave King's Landing and, and, uh, you know, go to dragon stone and, and get out of here. And even Leanor is gonna say but, you know, "You always used to say that if we, if we left then Alicent is the only one in your father's ear and that could not be good for us. That could only be bad." Um, and she's kind of in a place where, you know, she basically throws his old, you know, adages about you gotta drive into the storm. Isn't that what all of you valerians are always talking about?

Um, and she's, she doesn't wanna be here. She doesn't wanna be here anymore, I think in no small part. The rumors swirling to the extent that they have, who knows what kind of danger she could be in, especially with Breakbones gone, uh, without his direct protection here as well. Um, that she's lost a lot of friends here in, in King's Landing, and maybe it's time for a fresh start, or at least some measure of distance, uh, between, between us and them.

So they are gonna leave, Carl gets the invite. They're gonna go to Dragon Stone, and that's where they will be. They will roll up to dragon stone in that final montage of the episode that is on the other side of Harwin and Lyonel returning to the cursed Castle Harrenhal.

Richard Lawson: Mmm. Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Uh, it does not stay in one person's hands for too long, so the stories go. Um, and so it really does not for, for Lyonel and, and Harwin. Looks like they don't even get a night, uh, before it is ablaze, set on fire by Larys's bumblebee crew.

Um, and this was another one, Richard, that it's left ambiguous in the book, how, how they died. I think that even Viserys is under some suspicion. Did he order this because of the rumors of Harwin Strong? And was he so scandalized by it that he did something very cowardly and assassinated these people. The show is giving it, uh, giving us this, their version of, their version of events.

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: Um, so I was interested to see how this was ul- ultimately gonna play out. The shows making a decision. This is Larys who is killing his family.

Richard Lawson: Harrenhal is evoked a lot in the original song of Ice and Fire books.

Josh Wigler: Yes, yes.

Richard Lawson: Um, as like sort of like thematic like whispery past kind of creepy stuff. You know, it's, there's nothing really present tense about, about it in the plot of the books. But like, it's, it's part of the mythology that I always found interesting. So, and it's, it's this, you know, husk of an old, burnt down castle kind of thing. Is this the fire that caused it? Is this the thing?

Josh Wigler: No, no, no.

Richard Lawson: No. Okay.

Josh Wigler: So you could see it in the shot when they're, when they're, when they're getting to Harrenhal that it, it already looks pretty wrecked. It's like, why are we fighting over this place?

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: Why does anyone wanna live here? Um, but no, it is, uh, it was, it was ruined in, um, in Aegon's conquest, in this really, really memorable way of a, of a Black Heron is like the cruel king who is, uh, who is in charge of Harrenhal. Uh, and he is, he is resisting the conquest and, uh, he, you know, he's built his, his castle in such a way that there's, you're not gonna melt my castle down, it's not possible. And so instead, Aegon lights it up and heats it up, and it becomes, uh, uh, it becomes a, you know, the, the kettle boils-

Richard Lawson: Mmm. Okay.

Josh Wigler: ... and everybody inside of it does as well, and it starts to, to melt and break down. Um, and this is the, the, the way that it's left, essentially. And it just does not stay in anybody's hands for too long, uh, for anyone to really do any sort of meaningful repair to, to Harrenhal. So I do think it's, it's very symbolic, this, this castle, of a lot of the ideas that are at play in, uh, in the Game of Thrones universe of, you know, you can have the castle but for how long? You know, you can have the throne, but for how long?

And so, that's effectively it. We are, we are going to see, um, you know, both Harwin and Lyonel desperately try to get out, they cannot. Um, they do not survive this. They are both killed in this fire. And, to your point, yeah, there's this, you know, Larys's closing monologue. Uh, he does not have a mustache to twirl, Richard.

Richard Lawson: No.

Josh Wigler: It is the only thing that's missing.

Richard Lawson: He does have that kind of sinister cane, you know?

Josh Wigler: Yes.

Richard Lawson: That he, he kind of wields.

Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm.

Richard Lawson: Um, yeah. It's a, it's a well-drawn character, an interestingly drawn character. Uh, and I think that, that, that sort of voiceover thing toward the end, which is so effective, um, is a really good like, kind of narrative tool, where it's like, alright, this is now where we're at, you know?

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard Lawson: Like, we are, we are... Conne- fam- familial connections, see, you know, matter no more, you know? I mean, they do but like they can be broken, you know. And so I think that that's the show telling us like, alright, well, this is now... Things are really ramping into gear, uh, that we have been talking about since episode one, but now actually, it's happening.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. So that is, uh, Episode Six. That's The Princess and the Queen, Richard.

Richard Lawson: Uh, I'm excited. I think this is, uh, I was worried about the, about the, the transition, but I think they did it well. And I really, I think more than I did for the first five episodes, like I really feel like what the stakes of this are, you know. And-

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: ... and the big question for me is Daemon, but otherwise I'm, I'm all in.

Josh Wigler: How much of that do you think owes to, you know, there's been a lot of talk about the pacing of those first five. I think some people think it was slow, others would say that they'd churned through material almost too quickly. Um, do you feel like where we are right now is really living on the bedrock of, of having the time to spend with a younger Rhaenyra, a younger Alicent to really understand the extent of the hurt that these characters have been living with, and may as a result, their internalization of that hurt could get externalized to others?

Richard Lawson: Yeah, I think that it help- I think those fir- the first five episodes like, this is a big family saga, you know, a dynastic power struggle. And I think that you can jump into that right, you know, at the climax, essentially. But I think it's, it's better storytelling to, to, to let, to really like spend some time getting to know people and, not every character, certainly, but like, the really important ones. Um, so then that the, the payoffs are that much more satisfying. And, and, you know, the surprise is that much more surprising.

And, um, you know, this is a show that is, in theory gonna run for seasons. And so, um, we just have to kind of, we're, we're settling into things, you know? Even though I feel sometimes the plot and individual episodes can feel a little bit hasty. Um, from a step back, I think the show is, is very, like patiently drawn, and so I appreciate that we spent all the time in the younger years because it, you know, it registers that much more keenly now.

Josh Wigler: Very curious to hear what everyone out there listening to Still Watching is thinking about the time jump, thinking about the ascension of Emma D'Arcy and Olivia Cooke to the roles of and Alicent. Please write in. We'd love to hear from you. Stillwatchingpod@gmail.com. Stillwatchingpod@gmail.com. Your thoughts on those questions and anything else from Episode Six and, and where we might be barreling towards in Episode Seven and beyond.

Uh, I can tell you based on the title of next week's episode, Richard, we probably know where we are barreling toward, Driftmark, uh, is the name of Episode Seven.

Richard Lawson: Yes. And we haven't seen the Sea Snake in, in the-

Josh Wigler: 10 years [laughs]

Richard Lawson: ... right? So like-

Josh Wigler: A solid decade.

Richard Lawson: ... we know he has a dead daughter now. A son who has had to essentially kind of not flee but like leave King's Landing. Um, I think he's gonna come roaring back.

Josh Wigler: I think that that's a fair assumption. So we will see what all of that looks like when we reopen Still Watching next week. Between now and then, Richard, where can folks find you and what do you got going on?

Richard Lawson: Uh, just at vf.com, uh, writing reviews like normal. I think I'm gonna write something ab-... I'm gonna go see Avatar 3D, the re-release, in theaters and see if, see if-

Josh Wigler: Ooh, you and me both [laughs].

Richard Lawson: Yeah, the movie, I haven't seen the movie since I saw it in theaters however many years ago, so, uh, people can keep an eye out for that in the coming weeks.

Josh Wigler: Amazing. Very fun. You can find me on Twitter @roundhoward. You can find me on vf.com as well, recapping _House of the Dragon_ here each and every week, including next week when we come back for Episode Seven. Before we close out, huge shout out to the great man behind the scenes, Dave Gonzalez, the true secret father of Still Watching-

Richard Lawson: [laughs]

Josh Wigler: ... without whom this podcast would not be possible. So thank you to Dave for making this podcast come together. We will be back next week with more Still Watching: _House of the Dragon_. Until then everybody, take care. Bye-bye.