Josh Wigler: Hello and welcome back to Still Watching. The television podcast from Vanity Fair. We cover entire seasons of the hottest shows on TV. And this week we are concluding our deep dive into House of the Dragon. The Game of Thrones prequel series on HBO. I'm Josh Wigler. And to discuss the House of the Dragons season one finale with me, it's Richard Lawson. Richard, what's with that look on your face right now?

Richard Lawson: Oh, you know, [laughs] um, I had a little oopsie up in the sky. [laughs]

Josh Wigler: [laughs] Just a little whoops.

Richard Lawson: I think, I think my, my mom might be mad at me.

Josh Wigler: Oh no. Oh my gosh. We're recapping episode 10, The Black Queen. Uh, the season one finale of House of the Dragon. We're recording this a little later than we usually do. We watched this on Sunday night alongside all of you except for the pirates, uh, whoever you are out there. Uh, so the podcast come your way a little later than usual. We appreciate your patience. Richard, how are you doing with your House of the Dragon hangover this morning?

Richard Lawson: Good. Good. Um, eager for more and kind of sad that we won't get that until, I don't know, a year from now maybe. [laughs] Um-

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: ... because this was, uh, an episode that, you know, I think that's kind of traditional with Game of Thrones like I was expecting maybe a little bit bigger, but I think also that was last episode, right? Like the really big stuff.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. I think so. I think, actually, my, my feeling on it is Game of Thrones will, would, would have typically given you a really big penultimate episode.

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: And then, the finale is kind of winding everything down and the premiere of the following season will sort of be winding everything up. There's kind of like these two slower episodes that are on the other side of the penultimate. That's the cadence that I'm used to with Westeros.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: This did feel really big to me. This felt like part two of a two-part finale and it certainly ends with this moment that as a book reader, I've been really nervous about, [laughs] been waiting for, but I think even if you hadn't read the book and you were just, you know, following the season all season long and, you know, this is House of the Dragon and, you know, two families with dragons are not exactly getting along, you're waiting for those dragons to turn on each other. Uh, and so we finally got that in this episode, and then we cut to Black basically, right?

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: You know, we are, we are out at the end of this battle between Luke and Aemond which goes terribly wrong and it does feel like, "Okay. So I just get to watch the next episode next week, right?" And instead it will probably be sometime in 2024.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. I think it's, you know, it's the, the process of watching this season has been like, okay, this is a show about Rhaenyra and Alicent, you know, I, uh, you know that about Rhaenyra, but Alicent sort of, you know, more and more emerges, uh, you know, into the fore. Um, and I kind of assumed that a lot of the kids, their, a lot of their kids would sort of be Tom-esque, and that like we're aware of them or even or, or-

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard Lawson: ... the, the sister whose name I forget, um-

Josh Wigler: Oh, Helena?

Richard Lawson: Uh, or, yeah, Tom and sister, the one who died in the boat.

Josh Wigler: Oh got it. Myrcella. Myrcella. Yes.

Richard Lawson: Myrcella. Yes. Like, you know, they're around but they're not Joffrey, you know? And then, this episode in particular, I mean in past episodes too, are like, no. No. The kids, of course, this is about like legacy. Like, like family dynasty. So like you have to pay attention-

Josh Wigler: It's your kid's party.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. [laughs] Exactly. You have to pay attention to all these people. And I had naively assumed when Luke and his brother fly off for the little missions, like that was a way of getting them out of the narrative. And it's like, "No." [laughs] It's, it's per, it's... That they're gonna follow that or at least one half of that. And I... So yeah. I had to do some read adjustment in my head. And, and then, at the end was, uh, kind of sad, actually. [laughs]

Josh Wigler: Yeah. I mean no one wants to see poor Luke get eaten off of a dragon. That's horrible. Uh, but, you know, it is Game of Thrones and we have seen bad things happen to the cast before, certainly to the young members of the cast as well. Uh, so there's some ways in which I think it's interesting, because if you've been paying attention [laughs] and if you watched eight seasons of this HBO franchise previous to this season, you shouldn't be all that surprised [laughs] that the war is eventually going to come for the next generation, and yet I think it is still just such a shocking moment.

And I think that the way that the violence is conveyed like the aftermath of it with not just the, the holding steady on Ewan Mitchell as Aemond, but also watching Arrax, uh, Luke's dragon, not to be confused with Eric, uh, the kni- [laughs] the member of the king's guard- [laughs]

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: ... uh, but Arrax just like, you know, falling from the sky in bits and pieces-

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: .... uh, really sells it. So I thought it was really, really strongly conveyed it was very, very brutally done. And I do think it's brutally done both in the sense of what has happened literally on screen and also in the sense of, "I can't believe you're leaving us here. How could you leave us here?"

Richard Lawson: Yeah. [laughs] I know. I know.

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: Uh, when, when we, Rhaenyra all episode is like, "Let's be prudent. Let's, you know, let's not rush into anything." And then, she's like, "Oh fuck that." Right? [laughs]

Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm.

Richard Lawson: Um, or at least we can assume that that's what she's thinking. Um, I think it also, uh, before we get into like the real bit by bit part of the episode. Like I, I think that the show has done a really good job of telling us how kind of arbitrary and, and accidental a lot of this is, you know? Like, like we, we, from a distance you might seem like, "Oh there's all this grand sort of pla- planning in these titans kind of clashing against each other."

And several instances in this season we've been like it's just some kid making a mistake. It's just, it's a misunderstanding. It's, it's all feels so petty and yet the, the results of it is very, is gonna be very serious.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Definitely. So it's gonna be very serious business moving forward, alas we will be stopping the House of the Dragon train here with episode 10 this week. And then, we'll be back at some point with House of the Dragon in the future. Still Watching we'll continue. Richard, maybe you're gonna give a tease about what the podcast looks like moving on from this week at the end of the show.

For now, we've got some dragons still to wrangle. We would still love your feedback if you wanna send it in. Stillwatchingpod@gmail.com. That's stillwatchingpod@gmail.com. We will get into the recap really quickly on the other side of this commercial break. Stay tuned.

All right, Richard, let us march on. It is episode 10 of season one of House of the Dragon, The Black Queen directed by Greg Yaitanes, written by co-show runner soon to be sole show runner, Ryan Condal. Uh, The Black Queen, it begins on Dragonstone. And it does begin roughly where it ends, uh, in the, in the, in the painted table, near the painted table of Westeros which, gosh, looked great in this episode.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. It's cool.

Josh Wigler: I have to say. I think that they should, uh, you know, maybe season two, uh, I don't know if it's gonna be a little too much like the original Game of Thrones opening credit sequence, but I think we should crawl over the painted table for season two. Maybe, maybe a hot take but I think that they really nailed the look of this thing. Uh-

Richard Lawson: Yeah. That's a really cool piece of production design. Yeah.

Josh Wigler: It's ama- it's amazing. I think it would, it would really lend itself nicely especially with the Game of Thrones theme is still there. Uh, Viserys is gone. His obsession with the old Valyria model is behind us. Let's, let's move on. Uh, that would, that would be my vote personally, but I don't really have a vote in this thing.

Anyway, Luke is here, uh, and so we are beginning not only with war but we are beginning with Luke as well. And it's, it's really sad in hindsight, Richard, that when we're here with Luke and Rhaenyra comes in, he, he is once again sort of focused on, "I don't wanna be Lord of the Tides. I don't want the Sea Snake to die. Uh, I'm not, I'm not like him. I get, I get Green sick when I'm out at sea." I believe is the word [laughs] he uses which is, uh, uh, pretty rough, uh, in the rear view mirror of what happens to this poor boy.

Richard Lawson: This poor kid, and, you know, and it's echoing the scene from earlier, uh, [laughs] an earlier episode where he said, "Well, if I'm the lord then everyone's dead."

Josh Wigler: Everyone's dead. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Richard Lawson: You know, and, and, you know, once again, this season has been about like the, the, what happens to these kids who were sort of, you know, it's not their choice to be born into any of this. Uh, that it just keeps grinding up generation after generation. And I guess we probably should have known right from this opening scene that Luke was gonna be, A, a focus of the episode, and B, probably not gonna fare very well.

Josh Wigler: Sure. Uh, so he is, he is really, uh, he's, he's really upset about the state, uh, the state of things with his, with his grandfather and where this might fall for him and Rhaenyra is trying to tell him that, you know, I was scared when I was your age. I was 14 when I started to realize that I was gonna have [laughs] a very powerful role in things and I would learn about it more as the, as the years went on. I would get more comfortable with this idea of wearing the crown.

Um, and Luke says, "I'm not like you though, mom. I'm not so perfect." Uh, she says, "I'm anything but perfect." Uh, and it's, it's sad because we're not gonna get a lot more scenes of these two together, but just the affection that Emma D'Arcy portrays-

Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: ... toward Luke, uh, really was very moving for me, especially knowing that this was going to be not a long thing coming.

Richard Lawson: We see so little of it on, on-

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: ... on these shows like this, you know, a lot of times the parental relationships, uh, with their kids are very like stern and, you know, we have to do this for the family. And this was a moment where, you know, Rhaenyra is able to just be kind of affectionate mom, you know? And, um, to have that then [laughs] be so ruined at the end, uh, yeah. They, they did a good job of setting up the emotional stakes of this, uh, alongside the kind of practical like, you know, matters at state.

Josh Wigler: Uh, so this tender moment between mother and son is interrupted by the arrival of a different Targaryen. Princess Rhaenys has arrived from her short flight from King's Landing. Uh, and she comes with the double whammy of terrible news. She cuts right to the chase, Richard. She says, "Viserys is dead and what's more, Aegon has been crowned as his successor."

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: This goes over poorly.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. I mean she's, she's dragon lagged, you know, from that flight and so she's probably tired and, uh, I think she's just like I just-

Josh Wigler: I just wanna check into my room.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. [laughs] Exactly. Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm.

Richard Lawson: The time change, you know, all that so.

Josh Wigler: [laughs]

Richard Lawson: Yeah. I mean-

Josh Wigler: I think it's the time zone. [laughs] I'm pretty sure. [laughs]

Richard Lawson: ... I think I'm pretty sure of it. [laughs] We don't know how they work there. We don't know. Um-

Josh Wigler: It might be like an hour off. It might just be right on the cut off.

Richard Lawson: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Um, no. I mean, it's she's, uh, you know, obviously emerged as a very, uh, kind of grand character last episode. And so, I'm glad that we at least got some of her, um, reasserting that.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Absolutely. So she shows up. She's still in her armor. She hasn't even changed. She just came right into the room to, to deliver the news, um, and the news lands poorly. Uh, Daemon is pretty ready to just, you know, turn on the nukes and hit, you know, hit the button. I don't know if that's how it works. It certainly seems that way in the movies. Uh, and he's, he's ready to go to war. He's, he's right on the edge of it.

Um, Rhaenyra has other concerns at the moment. Um, when Rhaenys says, "The Greens are coming for you, Rhaenyra. You should leave Dragonstone at once." It's not exactly possible as Rhaenyra prematurely goes into labor-

Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: ... and we are left with yet another childbirth scene here in House of the Dragon season one.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. I think maybe we've had that's, they've done [laughs] enough, you know.

Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm.

Richard Lawson: Our, our introduction to the, um, the adult Rhaenyra was another birth scene, but then her, taking that long horrible walk up to the queen's chambers and, yeah. I mean I, I understand what they're trying to convey, but, um, yeah. This, this one was especially obviously agonizing, because of how it ended.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. It ends very terribly. Um, so she is, she's gonna be dealing with that while Daemon is going to be trying to shore up all of the soldiers and rally the troops for battle. Um, Jace is going to be summoned by Rhaenyra. Uh, and Rhaenyra is going to tell both Jace and Luke what has happened. That the Greens have refused her succession. They've claimed the Iron Throne and Aegon has been crowned king.

And Jacaerys, uh, asks a reasonable question. Like, "Where is Daemon? Where's your husband in all this? Why is he not in this room with you?" She has a great line, uh, Rhaenyra, which is, "I don't know. He's gone to madness. He's gone to plot his war." There's just a little bit of like an IDGAF, uh, attitude- [laughs]

Richard Lawson: Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... about Rhaenyra in this moment.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. I mean the, the marriage seems definitely on the rocks in this episode, um, because I, I guess it's partly because, right? Like Daemon is finally just like, "All right. Now is my..." Here... The reason I put myself in this position was for the, you know, eventuality of something like this.

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard Lawson: Like it's, he's, he's very self-interested, uh, as we see also later, um, in the episode.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. I think it's like is it a combat, it's, you know, how much do you wanna lean it on like this is what he views his responsibility is, is that he's meant for this moment. He is meant to be here to go to war against the Greens versus this is just what he wants, you know?

Richard Lawson: Right. Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Like this is sort of what he, you know, he's desired since he was a boy. That the, you know, we became kings with, with dragons not with dreams, as he's gonna say later. How much is that, you know, him sort of feeling protective about the fact that he didn't know about the song of ice and fire legacy versus how much he's just been fantasizing about war for all of these years, either way, that's where he is leaning and Rhaenyra is gonna tell Jace, "You're my heir. Whatever is left to inherit after all the shit hits the fan is yours, so please go and make sure that Daemon doesn't do anything insane without my command."

Um, and so Jacaerys is going to go into the war room and try and shout, "Daemon down." Uh, and basically say, "Nope. Uh, whatever you're trying to do right now, my mother does not want happening. She wants nothing happening until she says it." And Daemon is kind of, uh, you know, he, he's at first trying to get the prince to, to be on board with him in the war effort. And I think after a moment, uh, it turns towards him being like, "Well, why don't we go outside and I'll show you the true meaning of loyalty."

And I feel like it, it is in a way, Richard, like Daemon almost trying to groom the prince towards like his outlook-

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... of how a war like this needs to be handled.

Richard Lawson: And there's a 100% agenda dynamic in that, you know?

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: Like you, you don't have the, the, you know. Like, "I'm not your father but like I'm the closest thing to it and also like I'm the closest thing to like a king, you know? Yeah. Yeah. She's the queen, but like come on, let's, let's, let's talk like some, have some kind of boy talk, you know." Um, and I think that will probably continue to rear its head, uh, in the coming season.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Very likely. Uh, so when we do go outside with Daemon, he's there with two members of the Kingsguard, Sir Laurent and Sir Stefan. Uh, interestingly, Sir Stefan, uh, I believe Stefan Darkhold is his name, Darklin rather, uh, is the knight who, uh, leaves King's Landing with Viserys's crown and brings it to Rhaenyra in the book. They gave that role to, to Sir Eric in the show. Sir Eric in the book is the one who is on Dragonstone. So it's just a little bit of a Freaky Friday happening with these two characters, um, but it's Sir Laurent and Sir Stefan who are here and Daemon is going to what?

Like, uh, like force them into, "Okay, either you are team Rhaenyra or you are food for Caraxes here. Uh, make your choice."

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: "You have one choice to, you know, to, you know, [laughs] one moment to decide this."

Richard Lawson: They've already kind of sworn loyalty to her. He's like, "I want you to do it again." [laughs]

Josh Wigler: Double loyalty. Yeah.

Richard Lawson: And to make sure, and, and then he considers the third eventuality which is like, "Or you're lying to me now and just so, you know, if, if that's the case, it's going to be really bad for you, guys."

Josh Wigler: It'd be so much worse. Yeah.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Uh, he's... Yeah. He's pretty clear about like, "You are either loyal to Rhaenyra or you die now or you're not loyal to Rhaenyra and you die horribly later."

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: Um, feels like that's on the show for a reason.

Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: Uh, like I don't know that I love the shot for both of [laughs] Sir Laurent and Sir Stefan here. I feel like Daemon making this threat feels like you kind of have to make good on the threat if it's going to be on the show.

Richard Lawson: Well, if not them, someone else certainly, you know?

Josh Wigler: Yes.

Richard Lawson: Like he... Uh, as we see in that horrible scene with, with Rhaenyra where he chokes her essentially.

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: Like he is a... And also we, you know, we also saw him kill his wife horribly. [laughs] So like he's-

Josh Wigler: Oh yeah.

Richard Lawson: ... he's a violent guy.

Josh Wigler: He's a pretty bad dude. Um, Rhaenyra, we cut back to her, um, and her scene is sort of juxtaposed with what's going on with the dragon and what's going on with Daemon. Um, she has the line, "Get out. Get out now." Uh, this is straight from the book. Uh, I didn't clock it on the show if she said, uh, monster get out. That is the, the phrase that is used in Fire and Blood, um, when she is, uh, when she is having, um, uh, when she's trying to give birth to, to this baby girl named Visenya who does not get named on the show as far as I clocked, but this baby is named Visenya in the book after Aegon The Conquerors, one of his two, uh, sister wives, who's the one who is the, the more war-minded of the two.

Daemon has been compared to her at certain points throughout this season as well, um, but she is not to be. She is stillborn and it is really graphically rendered at the scene where Rhaenyra gives birth to this, uh, this, this poor, this poor child.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. Yeah. There's, uh, there's something kind of, kind of like for me that was vaguely reminiscent of the end... Is it the end of the first season of Game of Thrones where like Dany is ill, and then the baby is dead, right?

Josh Wigler: Yes.

Richard Lawson: But [inaudible 00:17:27] with the dragon eggs, right? Like there's some kind of almost, you know, it's horrible, brutal, sad but there's something kind of mystical also happening.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. There... So in season one is where she, uh, is on like the other side of her, of her like deal with the devil with, with Mirri Maz Duur, uh, Daenerys is. And she gives birth to the dragons at the end. She's, you know, bringing dragons back into the world after centuries of being asleep, essentially. Uh, and here we're seeing something very different with Rhaenyra, and yet it does feel thematically connected, um, whether or not that's by design or it's just sort of where the story falls at this point in time.

Um, in the book this takes place over the course of many days. It seems like it's a lot quicker on the show. I think that this could be the last major childbirth scene that we're going to get on House of the Dragon. I would expect maybe after some of the response to these scenes-

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... from the audience, uh, that if there are other, uh, designs for scenes like this, they may rein it in, uh, would be, would be my guess, Richard.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. I would, I would think so. Um, I think they have certainly made, uh, an effective point about like how difficult life in the world for women is in this whole universe-

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: ... uh, and, you know, I think just for the sake of like not further traumatizing people, uh, they might. Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Point made.

Richard Lawson: Might kind of hold back. Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Yes.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. I think that's right.

Josh Wigler: Um, so we go to this funeral for the child and there's a lot of ways in which, you know, you know leaving aside how this episode connects back to Game of Thrones. I think there's a lot of ways in which this episode calls back to its own history, House of the Dragons history. Um, the fact that she's giving birth to a baby named Visenya, uh, which is something that even, uh, Viserys and Emma were talking about before Emma's labor that ends in tragedy in the first episode, uh, that I think it's, uh, Viserys says, "We already have one Visenya." And he's referring to, to Daemon.

So we have a, a same named baby here. We also have, of course, another harrowing childbirth scene, but we also have another funeral for a child, uh, which is what we got in the first episode of House of the Dragon. And this time I think both in, uh, obviously, in her getting crowned with her father's crown when Sir Eric shows up and Daemon is going to place that on Rhaenyra his head, there is just the fact that she is being recognized by the people around her, at the very least, as the queen of Westeros, whether or not that's going to be widely accepted I think is the central drama of the show now.

Uh, but she also, to me, I don't know if she looked this way to you at all, Richard, but she kind of looked almost like Viserys. Uh, I feel like the way that she was cloaked, the way that she was robed, um, the way that she is standing before all these people with almost this element of like surprise of like, "Am I ready for this?" There was something that really connected Emma D'Arcy as Rhaenyra in this moment to Paddy Considine as Viserys for me.

Richard Lawson: Oh totally. Yeah. Um, you know, and again the show is, you know, continually telling us that like the history is repeating itself, uh, with different, you know, different, some slight variations or whatever and like the everyone is just kind of caught in this long story of, um, of parents and children and doom and ascension and all that stuff. And yeah. So I think they're definitely trying to be like we began the season with this thing and now we're kind of bookending it with this.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. And so when everyone has pledged their loyalty to Rhaenyra, pointedly, not Rhaenys. Uh, she is the only one I think that I saw still standing during this whole scene. Uh, she hasn't made up her mind quite yet or at the very least she wants to, to consult with the Sea Snake when the Sea Snake arrives. It sounds like the Sea Snake is doing okay is the prognosis that we have received at this point in the episode.

Richard Lawson: Yes. Yeah. And I think that Rhaenys is trying to decide, you, you know, not... Yes, specifically if she should support Rhaenyra, but also just like is my dream of neutrality and-

Josh Wigler: Possible.

Richard Lawson: ... just like living our little lives-

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: ... possible at all. And she makes a turn on that later in the episode, obviously, um, and, uh, yeah. So she's, she's has to really having to calculate kind of at tribal, you know? [laughs]

Josh Wigler: Yes. Exactly. So she's going to be like the silent person who's in the back row, uh, just watching everybody else melt down in front of Jeff.

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: Uh, so she's just trying to wait to see where her vote is going to land. In this next scene, which kind of is evocative of the tribal council, right? You know, when we're around the painted table and this is where we see it lit up and illuminated with the candles. And god, it looks incredible. Again, [laughs] it's just so worth repeating that that piece of craft is just highlight that, bring that into season two in a major way, please. It looks amazing. Um, and so we're gonna get the big introduction of Rhaenyra. She comes in with all the honorifics of queen of the first men and all of that jazz. Uh, and she shows up and we get to see a little bit of the lay of the land at this point.

It's a lot of information here, Richard, that like it comes really fast and furious. I think the big points are, they're like their numbers when it comes to individual boots on the ground, not fantastic. Certainly nothing in comparison to what the Hightowers have at their disposal. What they do have at their disposal is some stale oaths as Otto is going to describe them in a scene from now. Uh, they have, um, sworn allegiance from the Baratheons, from the [inaudible 00:22:43], from the Starks of Winterfell that they need to check in on and see if those oaths are still, [laughs] uh, are still relevant, uh, can they count on those alliances? And if they can't, what they at least have are dragons, and so many of them. They have I believe that the count is 13 dragons to the four that the Hightowers have.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: And while the Hightowers have Vhagar, the biggest meanest dragon in all the land, the Targaryen line, Rhaenyra's line, no slouches either. They have a bunch that are just, uh, unclaimed on Dragonstone. We're going to see Vermithor, uh, in the scene with Daemon towards the end of the episode. And there's a bunch of other ferocious dragons that are here as well.

It was pretty cool as like a Fire and Blood nerd to hear Moon Dancer, to hear Vermax, Arrax, Tyraxes, all of these names, Vermithor. That was fun. I don't know if anyone else was like, uh, if it was just like kind of like hearing Jacob and sons and like kind of trying to move on to the rest of the show, uh, but I had a great time hearing all these dragons names being recounted.

Richard Lawson: I saw someone on Twitter, they, they posted a screenshot with the subtitles of, of Daemon saying all the names and they were, it was like, "My doctor prescribing me new medication." [laughs]

Josh Wigler: [laughs] Yeah. That's exactly what it sounds like. I have googled Vermax before-

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... and I've gotten different results than a dragon, uh, I will say. [laughs]

Richard Lawson: Ask your doctor if Caraxes is for you, you know. [laughs]

Josh Wigler: [laughs] That's right. Yeah. And then, Moon Dancer sounds like a nickname for something.

Richard Lawson: Sure. Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Uh, so they've got a lot of dragons and Daemon is the one who is basically saying, "We'll just, we'll either scare the shit out of them with our dragons or we will burn them to ash." And it's Rhaenyra who is really insisting on, "I'm not going to be the ruler of ash and bone." Uh, and this is very similar to, to, to Dany for so much of Game of Thrones. It's a, it's a pivot away from the book. In the book, it's really Rhaenyra is all about like, "Let's blast them with dragon fire. I'm ready to go." Uh, and in the show we're seeing a different attack.

Then, again, it's worth noting that Fire and Blood, the book that this is based on, it is a history book and it's a fake history book.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: And we are left to fill in a lot of the details and it's being told to us from second and third hand sources and people who were not there. So the show has a lot of License to reinterpret this stuff and to have their true quote-unquote "version" of Rhaenyra being the one who, as Rhaenys is going to say a few scenes from now, be the only one in the room who wants to hold the realm together.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. And I think there's something poignant about Rhaenyra honoring her father's sort of the peace, his, his like peaceful kind of, you know, identity I guess.

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: Um, and being like, "This is what he, this is what he tried to do and that's what I'm going to try to do is hold this all together. I don't wanna ruin it, um, just out of, you know, whatever." And, and yeah. I, I think, you know, for as ineffectual or sort of frustrating as Viserys could be throughout this whole season like that I think they're now realizing that he was actually doing something kind of ha- difficult and, and-

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: ... did it sort of successfully.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. For a long time. Uh, is she gonna have better results or similar results? Uh, the end of the episode makes it a lot harder to imagine that path is still available for her, but we'll see, season two 2024, hopefully, knock on wood. Um, in the meantime, um, we are going to see the first clash of these two sides as the Hightowers come to Dragonstone. Uh, Otto Hightower leading the parade. For the second time this season, we get another Dragonstone bridge scene, uh, which was also directed by Greg Yaitanes, uh, many, many moons ago. That was back in episode two.

Uh, so I have an interview with him coming up here for vf.com, which you should read, be on the lookout for. I will definitely ask him about The Tale of Two Bridges because I think that these are really, really fun scenes in relation to one another. You know, similar energy but different players. I mean the players are the same but the game has changed-

Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: ... and people have switched allegiances. I believe that's a [inaudible 00:26:22] at this point. Uh, and I think Rhaenyra, you know, was positioned against Daemon once upon a time. Here she is positioned against Otto, but also still sort of positioned against Daemon at least from Daemon's perspective. It's very complicated the way in which she wants to assert some power here in this moment against Otto who is coming for her surrender.

And she is saying, "Well, you're coming before the queen. You should bow." But also doesn't want this to spill out into fire and bloodshed at this moment in time.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. I thought there was a fun bit of blocking in that scene, uh, where she lands the dragon behind Hightower and his people. And then, she walks through them and turns to face them to be like, "You are, you guys are stuck between, [laughs] you know, me and the dragon." You know?

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: And, um, you know, she, she puts up a good sort of wall of, of, um, of strength, um, even though as we saw, you know, in earlier scenes that she doesn't really have the numbers.

Josh Wigler: No. Otto is presenting her with the following terms, uh, that, uh, Aegon is offering generous terms. You will acknowledge him as king, and in exchange he will confirm your continued holding of Dragonstone. It'll pass down to your, his words, true born son, Jacaerys.

Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: Uh, so that feels like a concession already.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Uh, Lucerys will be confirmed as the heir of Driftmark. Your sons, by Daemon, they will have high honors. Aegon, uh, the, the third, I believe, uh, will serve as the king's squire. And Viserys will serve as his cup bearer. All the knights and lords who have sided with you will also be pardoned. Um, Richard, would she be a fool to accept this offer? Is it too good to be true?

Richard Lawson: Yeah. I mean I don't really believe it. Um, but it sounds good for a second, you know? You're like, "Oh, this could just end. We could just, you know, whatever." And, and then also Otto makes a, an appeal to sort of Rhaenyra's sentimental side with, you know, mentioning Alicent and their past friendship and like you, you have this flash of a second where you're like maybe they could just go back to the easiness of yesteryear, um, but, yeah. Otto, Otto has not shown himself to be someone that you can trust. [laughs] So I think she's right to be skeptical.

Josh Wigler: No. And he's, you know, he's being, uh, he, he like lays all that out in a way that's very sharp.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Like the terms they do sound great, but the, the tone of this voice I think tells you a lot. And when she basically says, "No." And when Daemon really, you know, doesn't help Rhaenyra's cause if she is actually considering it at all. He says, "I'd rather feed my kids to my dragons than have them serve." He's just said really bad stuff about Aegon.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Uh, and Otto at that point is like, "Listen to me, um, Aegon has been anointed in front of the entire realm. He has the conqueror's crown. He has the conqueror's sword. He has the conqueror's name. He is the king. Every single symbol of legitimacy is his. It doesn't matter that you were Viserys's heir, whether or not he gave this to Aegon, it's done. Just let it go."

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: He has this quote of, "Stale oaths will not put you on the Iron Throne, princess. The succession changed the day your father sired a son. I only regret that you and he were the last to see the truth of it." Um, this is very, very intense. Uh, this, this scene between them that you could really imagine at any point will spill over into, to full-on violence. Uh, members of the Kingsguard on, on both sides of this fight on the bridge of this like, um, you know, verbal fight on the bridge.

They've, they've got their hands on their health of their swords. They are ready to, to take this thing to the next level.

Richard Lawson: Yes. Yeah. And I think they are just kind of checking a box being like so they can say, "Well, we did offer this, the stuff, you know."

Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm.

Richard Lawson: They, they probably know that's not going to be accepted and, you know, and there is something in all its condescension and chauvinism or whatever. Like Otto is right. That the minute that this kid was born that that changed the whole thing, you know? And, um, and, you know, while, while Rhaenyra was probably smart to take her family away from King's Landing for all these years, uh, for safety reasons and just so they could like live their own lives, it does mean now they are behind, you know, the... Like they're, they're... Uh, the Greens are ahead of them, you know?

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: They've already put so much into motion as we see later in the episode where there are already emissaries out to these kind of like, um, swing, swing votes, [laughs] you know. Uh, and-

Josh Wigler: They have the popular vote, right? Like-

Richard Lawson: Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... they, they have the people. They have like individual numbers and they have the masses too.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Uh, and that is something that all the dragons of the world couldn't necessarily buy you.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Uh, so that, that's sort of the, the really tricky thing that Rhaenyra and her side have to contend with is, "Sure. The previous king wanted me to be on the throne, does anybody else want me to be on the throne?" And Otto's coming forward with that pretty much.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: But he's also coming forward with, uh, this piece of parchment that took me, you know, I had to double take to realize what this was. He's, he's giving her this page from the book that young Rhaenyra, back when she was Milly Alcock-

Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: ... uh, tore from the book in the very first episode of the show. It's about the Warrior Queen Nymeria, who is, uh, considered one of the founders of Dorne. Uh, and this is something that she and Alicent were going over in the Weirwood, uh, by the Weirwood tree in, in King's Landing at the start of the whole season. Uh, Alicent has held on to this. And this is sort of her like, this is her proof of life kind of, right?

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: This is her proof of affection for Rhaenyra. Like, "Please, take, take us up on this. I mean it. I will protect you. I will look out for you." And I do think that when Rhaenyra sees this, she tells Otto, "King's Landing will have my answer on tomorrow." And I think there is a part of me that wonders is she really authentically considering, maybe I should just lay this down, maybe I should just, you know, trust my old friend that something of our old relationship still exists here?

Richard Lawson: Yeah. Because she knows that like if, if she goes forward with the, the nuclear option, uh, that, that probably ends with either her or Alicent dead, you know? [laughs]

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: And, and, um, so she has to decide basically if that, if that friendship, that, that bond is really over.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. So she's going to, you know, sort of sit with that decision. Daemon really wishes she wouldn't.

Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: Um, they go back into the castle and it's a little bit of a public spat, at first, right? Uh, Daemon's telling her, "They just declared war. What are you going to do about it?" Uh, and she wants to clear the room. She wants to have this conversation alone with Daemon, uh, she-

Richard Lawson: With her husband uncle.

Josh Wigler: [laughs] With her uncle husband as I've been writing about in many times to the great case [inaudible 00:32:51], [laughs] uh, that yes. She wants to have this conversation with him privately. And she wants to talk to him. I thought this was fascinating, Richard. Uh, she wants to talk to him heir to heir, right? "We've both been in this position before. Uh, we, you were Viserys' heir once upon a time. I was his heir for many, many years. You know about the Song of Ice and Fire. I know about the Song of Ice and Fire."

Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: "There's this Great War that's coming for us." And this is when Daemon lashes out physically. Uh, and he starts to, to choke her. And it's like this horrific violent knee-jerk response to, "I've been frosted out of this key piece of Targaryen information and you're just telling this to me so casually." Uh, it's, it's really interesting to me the way in which this kind of revives the... There's a lot of love that Daemon has had for his brother over the course of the season, but a lot of ways in which he's really disrespected the way that he ran his shit. And this really comes out like, "The dreams mean nothing. The dreams are ridiculous. The dragons are all that matters."

But it's like this false, horribly, impotent, bravado, Richard, from a guy who like, "You just weren't let in on the deal." And Rhaenyra sees that immediately.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. And, and in that lashing out, he betrays the like, oh, he still wants this for himself, you know?

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard Lawson: He hasn't kind of taken, happily taken second position so Rhaenyra can ascend the throne. Like no. No. This is all about him. It's about his ego and his, you know, his long, long-held desire, uh, for power.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. And so, he's being pretty clear I think in a lot of the ways that he's operated thus far, uh, that he is, you know, hoping that she will, you know, basically be the mouthpiece, right?

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: And that he will be the person who's actually shot calling this thing. And when I think he realizes that Rhaenyra isn't just doing this because she's the heir and she's supposed to, but she feels like there is this sacred purpose. There's this holy purpose of going all the way back to Aegon the Conqueror, at the very least, there has been this premonition of a Great War that is coming and is going to last a single episode of Game of Thrones, but it could happen on our show. [laughs] Uh, and so she's telling him about this and she really, really believes in it and it's a big part of why she is working really hard to contain this thing and not let it spill out into the streets quite yet.

Daemon is so displeased with this and I think it really leaves us seeing this man for who he is. If there was ever any question, uh, about what's Daemon all about, what's Daemon's deal? Like this is pathetic. Uh, it's just, it's, it's really, really, really pathetic. Um, it's real, it's a really well acted scene I think between Matt Smith and Emma D'Arcy, for sure.

Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: But I think it, it shows, it's Daemon unmasked in a big way. That something like this could trigger him in- into such a horrible violent response tells you everything you need to know about who Daemon Targaryen really is when it comes to his relationship with power.

Richard Lawson: And I don't think Rhaenyra will forget it.

Josh Wigler: No. Definitely not. I love, I love the look that Emma D'Arcy, uh, gives him in this moment of like it's somewhere between like, "How could you?" And also like, "Of course. This is your reaction."

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: Uh-

Richard Lawson: Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... just really, really expertly done. Um, so we move on from that scene to, uh, the scene of the, the first, uh, scene with the Sea Snake and Rhaenys in quite some time. It feels like this conversation has just been going on across the years, Richard.

Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: Uh, like a lot has been left unsaid between the two of them since Driftmark, since they lost Laenor, and they finally get to pick it up. It seems like the Sea Snake just cut bait and ran, um, once they lost their son. She says, "You abandoned us. You abandoned me when I needed you most for more adventure at sea as has always been your way."

Um, and I think at this moment on, uh, what is no longer going to be his deathbed, but very well could have been. Finally, the Sea Snake is like, "You were right. I was wrong. I was holding on to these fantasies about power. We've lost absolutely everything, and now the person who killed our kid is standing to start this huge terrible war. Let's just go back to Driftmark and completely unplug ourselves from the situation." And it's Rhaenys is like, "Ah, we can't really do that anymore. That's no longer an option."

Richard Lawson: Yeah. It's too late, you know? He should have had that realization many years ago, you know? And, uh, I think that's, you know, one of the sort of more tragic, uh, side narratives on this season was exactly this debate between these two people, you know?

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: And now Rhaenys, uh, has to be the kind of sensible one, again. And unfortunately, the sensible response is not the peaceful one.

Josh Wigler: No. So she's saying, "Listen, I've been observing what's going on over these, these last few days and whether or not Rhaenyra had a hand in killing Laenor, she's definitely the candidate, you know, the, the, the least evil of two evils."

Richard Lawson: Yes.

Josh Wigler: "Uh, she is, she is trying to keep this thing together." Sea Snake's kind of like, "Ah. All right. Okay. Fine. Help me out of bed." Uh, and so he's going to, he's going to go and he's going to make his allegiance to Rhaenyra known. And I don't know how you felt about, uh, the way that this plays out. There's, there's a degree to which it seems like Rhaenyra is not only now on board or Rhaenys is now on board with Rhaenyra rather, uh, but also kind of seems like happily team Rhaenyra. And there is a piece of me that's like, "But you do think she killed your son, right?"

Richard Lawson: Right. [laughs] Right. Yeah. Well, I mean unless maybe Laenor has been sending secret postcards or something to his mom. [laughs]

Josh Wigler: [laughs] Yeah. Yeah.

Richard Lawson: Uh, I was imagining him like at a cafe in the free cities like reading the newspaper being like, "Oh god. What a mess over in Westeros." [laughs]

Josh Wigler: Uh-huh.

Richard Lawson: Like, "Glad I'm not there."

Josh Wigler: I feel like that's coming season two. [laughs]

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Uh, that feels like a very easy season two scene to imagine, for sure. Um, but we're going to have to Sea Snake. He's gonna come into the room now with Rhaenyra and everybody else, uh, and he's going to kind of give his opinion of the lay of the land.

Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: First and foremost, he's going to pledge his house and his fleet to Rhaenyra's side. That our houses are bound by common blood and cause. The Hightower treason cannot stand. Uh, and this is very good news for Rhaenyra. They really needed the Velaryons to stand a chance here, because of course, the Hightowers have the Lannisters in their pocket, and the Lannisters have gold in theirs. Uh, so they really need another [laughs] wealthy benefactor with tons of ships in order to stand a chance in this fight, and now, they've got them.

Um, but they need more than that. They still need allies. Uh, they need to make sure that they have people across the, the realm or in their corner. They have the sea on lock. Uh, I guess the resolution to all of these, uh, flirtations with the Stepstones, Richard, is that this last war really finally did it. Now we control the Stepstones. The triarchy has been routed. Please believe us this time and we control the Narrow Sea. Uh, and if we control the Narrow Sea, we can cut up all seabourn travel and we can stop trade going into King's Landing and we'll starve them out, basically, was his strategy.

Richard Lawson: Which is significant, right?

Josh Wigler: Yes.

Richard Lawson: And, and like the, the, you know, the, the way, the [inaudible 00:39:40] the scene is directed and scored, there's a turn in the music and, and Rhaenyra's face kind of lights up when she realizes like, "Oh that's actually really big." You know, for all of the times we've been talking about the Sea, Sea Snake for all of his vain glorious adventurism at sea, it actually seems to have worked finally. And, um, and that's really, uh, a major, major deal.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Cut to season two, [inaudible 00:40:02] 4.0 showing up on the Stepstones.

Richard Lawson: Sure. Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Everybody on the internet losing their minds. [laughs]

Richard Lawson: Yeah. [laughs]

Josh Wigler: It's coming. I'm sure it's coming. Uh, but they need to, they need to continue, uh, they need to, they need to continue strengthening their hold over the trade routes and Rhaenys is saying like, "I'll do that. I'll go on dragon back and I'll, I'll, you know, preside over that personally." So she's really in. She's in, you know, both feet, all the wings, everything that she needs to lend to the power of this situation. But it's still not enough. We still need to secure the Veil. We need to secure the North. We need to secure Storm's End and make sure that the oaths that they swore in front of my father are still, uh, relevant, are still going to be upheld. So let's send some ravens out.

And it's Jacaerys who pitches sort of this, this, you know, noble idea, but a, a fatal one for his brother, unfortunately. That dragons fly faster than ravens, you should send us. So the boys have been enlisted into the war.

Richard Lawson: Well, I mean I think that, uh, a kind of like lordly person wants nothing more than some teenage boy to show up and be like, "[laughs] Do this."

Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm.

Richard Lawson: You know?

Josh Wigler: Yes.

Richard Lawson: You know, like that's a great idea. Really. Um, you know, you, you sort of appreciate from a familiar perspective, that like a familial perspective that like Rhaenyra wants her kids to be involved, and competent and thinks they're ready for the world, but at the same time you're like, "This, this was not the best option [laughs] I don't think for getting these messages across."

Josh Wigler: No. I mean I get it because there's like, there's the, there's the sense of urgency and-

Richard Lawson: Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... you know, things need to happen quickly. And it's kind of like, "Why send snail mail when I can just text message them?" You know?

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: And so like, let's, let's do this fast, but there is, you know, it would be nice if, uh, they could have brought a couple of extra people with them.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. Exactly.

Josh Wigler: You know, Luke could have traveled with an adult.

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: I think you could just add an extra saddle to, to Arrax, I think would have worked. Um, but, uh, they go off on their own. And they are only allowed to go from Rhaenyra's standpoint when they, when they swear by the seven that they are not going as soldiers, they are going as messengers. They swear under the eye of the seven that that's what they are going to do. Uh, and we get to hear a little bit of a season two tease, I think here, Richard, uh, when Jace is being told of what to expect from his visit to the north.

That there is the Lord of Winterfell, Cregan Stark, uh, who is close in age to Jace. Hopefully, they can find some common interest as men is what she tells Jace. I think a fairly safe bet that if you were missing some Starks from House of the Dragon season one, season two is going to have you covered to some extent.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. Okay. I was, I was, I was kind of wondering if maybe the, that those, the way that Rhaenyra described it was like is the show setting up that Jace and this guy are going to have a romance or like what? You know, I'm, I'm curious what, what all that's going to be. And, uh, yeah. I've been missing the North. So I'm excited for that.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. I think that, uh, I think that the way that the people who are responsible for the show have been talking about season two, the scope is expanding, the scope is widening. It's still very much about Rhaenyra and Alicent's families and the, the feud between them that is now spilling out into legitimate war. But we have a lot of other characters on the show now and the scope of the war sort of necessitates leaving the King's Landing region.

Uh, we're done with time jumps. We're done with just being sort of set in this one place. We may be traveling a bit for season two. I think the promise of what's going on with Jace and the fact that we follow Luke into his sadly short-lived, uh, journey into Storm's End, and instead of focusing on Jace, it's because Jace has more to do in season two and some of what we will see from season two is being talked about here.

It's sort of like in Game of Thrones towards the end of season one, they start talking about Stannis Baratheon a bit. And season two, you just launch right into Stannis Baratheon, who becomes a major force on the show for a while, whether or not that's what's going to happen with Cregan Stark in the North, uh, to be determined, but I think seeing some of that at the very least feels guaranteed. Uh, so that'll be a fun casting opportunity I think to see who they get to play Cregan Stark. I'm really excited. Uh, I, I look forward to seeing how that shakes out, for sure.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. Because, you know, the, the start of Game of Thrones is about the Stark/Baratheon relationship, and now we have Baratheons, and at least Stark's mentioned in this episode. So, um, yeah. I think it's important for the whole of the lore of all of this world, that Martin's whole universe that we like understand where the Starks were at this point in history.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. For sure. Meanwhile Luke looks pretty nervous. Uh, you know, he does not look like he's especially eager to go on this mission. Jace being the older brother is being sent much further away. Rhaenyra is trying to tell Luke that Storm's End, it's a short ride. You'll be there. It's like, it's like going from New York to Montreal.

Richard Lawson: [laughs]

Josh Wigler: It's like 45 minutes, man. You'll be fine. Uh, and Lord Borros, he's a proud man. He'll be honored to host a prince of the realm. She says to him, "I expect you will receive a very warm welcome." Ay-yayay.

Richard Lawson: Sure. Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Famous last words.

Richard Lawson: Got it. Yeah. Uh, it's, yeah, well, she's wrong about the weather, at least, it's raining. [laughs]

Josh Wigler: Uh-huh. [laughs]

Richard Lawson: So-

Josh Wigler: Yeah. It's probably pretty cold.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: I would guess.

Richard Lawson: Yes.

Josh Wigler: Uh, so they fly off and the camera goes with Luke. Um, but before we continue with him to Storm's End, we do have this quick scene still on Dragonstone as Matt Smith gets to sing in High Valyrian.

Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: Uh, I don't know that any of us had that on our bingo card heading into the finale, but he is alone in this cavernous area on his way towards a very large dragon that is not his own. This is Vermithor. Vermithor was the dragon of the Wise King Jaehaerys, before Viserys, who has gone unclaimed since Jaehaerys died. So this dragon has just been parked here collecting dust and growing, uh, in, uh, the bellows of, of Dragonstone for all this time.

So I don't know what you, what you took away from this scene. It's obviously very atmospheric Daemon coming to see this dragon on the other side of what he has just done to Rhaenyra.

Richard Lawson: Well, it's interesting from, you know, the context of, of having watched and read Game of Thrones is that like the big thing with that is the dragons are gone. And so, now we have, you know, constant mention in this episode of all these other dragons we haven't met yet, we haven't even heard of before, um, and so this, you know, while it's a kind of grand and awesome in the old sense of the word scene, with, with, uh, Daemon in this cave, like this is the beginning of the end for these creatures, you know? And, uh, so I, I'm, I'm curious now to see how that all plays out.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Uh, I thought it was also notable when he's, you know, when he's confronted with this information that being a Targaryen King means protecting the sacred knowledge that he knew nothing about.

Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: That he goes and sees the old king's dragon.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Like this is sort of the closest connection he has to true Targaryen, uh, royalty in his mind, maybe, that if he really believes that, you know, dreams don't make us kings, dragons do. This is sort of like the center of that Venn diagram. Of like if it's true, if there is this old dream that is, you know, stalking through the hallways of the Targaryen lineage that this dragon would have been in proximity to that. Uh, and this dragon like, what secrets do you keep? What, what rooms were you in when Jaehaerys was speaking his truth?

So I think that there is like, there is, there is something to me that is, is really sad about Daemon visiting this dragon at this point in time, both in terms of what you're very rightly pointing out. We know what Game of Thrones looked like as far as the dragon landscape so this cannot end particularly well for the dragons of the Targaryens and the dragons of Westeros, but I think it also is like very centrally located on Daemon's struggle as a character. And my empathy well is pretty dry for him at this moment in time, and yet I still think it's, you know, when, when these shows, when the Game of Thrones shows are at their best, they are shoring up some measure of understanding of the human condition even within someone who's fairly rotten.

Uh, and I, and I did like, I, I was in that moment with Daemon. Um, I did feel like this is somebody who is, who is pretty low, and is a very scary person as a result of that, but here he is sort of alone in the company of one of the only things he can, he can trust and one of the only things he believes in. And you're kind of getting to see this other sort of private, quieter side of the guy.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Uh, and it just, you know, further exploring the dimensionality of the characters of this show.

Richard Lawson: He like all the rest is just caught up in this thing that he was born into, you know, he's bad, but, um, you know, we'd have to kind of say like, "Well, he's the product of a bad environment."

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Part of me is like maybe that's why he's like, "I don't think I should leave Braavos." Like, "I, I just, I don't think I should leave Pentos, Laena. I think if I go back there I'm going to do some terrible shit. Uh, I think it's better if I'm just stuck in a library for the rest of my life." Maybe he knew, maybe he knew himself well enough to know but-

Richard Lawson: Yeah. He's one of the many characters on this season who had that sort of glimpse of the, the world beyond and the free the, you know, sort of better life and, uh, you know, he, he like the rest of them or almost all of them chose not to.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Yeah. So here he is. Um, so we go to Storm's End for basically the rest of the episode. And we were in Storm's End earlier in the season and it was pretty cool to see, but it is exceptionally cool to see Storm's Ends exterior and this giant tower and the storms raging around the very aptly named castle. I don't know if this was as neat for you as it was for me, Richard, but this was very satisfying to finally go to Storm's End.

Richard Lawson: Oh, it's so atmospheric and to see the dragon kind of lit up by lightning, you know, and, um, you know, I love all the sort of different like weather environments in Westeros that we've seen in the-

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: ... on these shows over the years and, um, but the minute that we saw Luke flying there in the rain and the, the lightning and everything, you're like, you, you know, you're like, "This is not going to end well, somehow." You know, because it's just so foreboding.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Yeah. They did... I think it was really clever that you see Vhagar parked outside, uh, and, you know, exactly where he is as illuminated by the lightning. And when Luke is gonna come out and he's gonna be basically sent away, that when the lightning strikes again, he's gone. Like that's some Jurassic Park T-Rex shit.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Wigler: You know? [laughs]

Richard Lawson: Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Wigler: It's really... [laughs]

Richard Lawson: [inaudible 00:50:10]

Josh Wigler: Yeah. And what happened to the goat? [laughs] Very evocative, for sure. Um, so Luke is gonna come in. Uh, he has a message for Lord Borros and, uh, what he does not know is, uh, that he has been beaten to the punch. I think he suspects it pretty strongly when he sees Vhagar parked outside. I don't know, maybe if I see Vhagar parked outside, I get back on my dragon, Richard.

Richard Lawson: Uh-huh.

Josh Wigler: I go home.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Like, "Yeah. I think we lost the Baratheons." [laughs]

Richard Lawson: Yeah. They, uh, they beat us to the punch on that one. [laughs] Um, so let's try someone else." Uh-

Josh Wigler: Yeah. [laughs] I think we gotta call a different house but I think Baratheons are, are out of the, out of the menu for us.

Richard Lawson: But poor Luke, his calculation was probably like, "But I, my mom sent me on this big... It's my first like big boy mission."

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: "And like I can't, I have to do it." Um, which again, is further reinforcing the tragedy of all these people's lives that he felt he had to do this for honor's sake.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean like to some degree, I don't know. Is he, is he wrong? You know, and, and I don't mean that like-

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... was this the right thing to do? I mean is, is his outlook of the situation necessarily wrong, you know? Rhaenyra really needs the Baratheons-

Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: ... and she has entrusted her son with this. And this is the kind of thing that when she was younger, she would have rightly called like brutally unfair. I'm a kid.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: You shouldn't put this on me. And she's doing that to her son. And here he is feeling the weight of the world on his shoulders and unlike Rhaenyra who was lucky enough to survive into her adulthood here, he's not gonna be able to make it out of the region.

Richard Lawson: Right. Yeah. Um-

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: ... you know, so he's, he's not the first casualty in this war, but he's, I think thus far the most significant one and, and, you know, it was, I guess they knew the risk involved sort of, but, um, maybe they should have considered that the, the Greens would be, uh, one step ahead of them.

Josh Wigler: A couple steps ahead at the very least. Uh, as Aemond is here, uh, he has gotten to the Baratheons first. He has, uh... I don't know if it's directly stated on the show. The implication is there for me, at least in the book, Aemond is going to offer himself up to the Baratheons as somebody to marry one of your daughters, Lord Borros, so he has come with the marriage pact. Um, and, uh, Lord Baratheon is, you know, basically laughing in Luke's face of, "What are you offering me other than reminders of my dad's oath?"

Uh, so he's, he's really not buying what Luke is selling and he's very firmly team Aemond until Aemond starts puffing up his chest and he takes his eye patch off. And you see what I really didn't know if the show was going to go here. He has a sapphire in place of his missing eye, which, uh, I wrote in my recap, more Gotham City than Westeros.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. [laughs]

Josh Wigler: And yet it's straight from the book. Um, I don't know what you thought about, uh, uh, Aemond's look.

Richard Lawson: Well, Aemond always has a lot of look, you know? So I would expect nothing less, um-

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: ... from this, you know, kind of fashion plate guy, uh, with his silken hair and fancy eye patch. Um, you know, and it's a, it's a funny, it's funny to think of this kind of clearly scary guy showing up and be like, "Give me one of your daughters." And like, and the Baratheon guy being like, "That sounds like a good idea." [laughs] You know?

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Uh, and he now not only wants one of the Baratheon's daughters, he wants one of Luke's eyes.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: And Luke can choose. Uh, and please do a good job because I would like to present it intact to my mother. This is just like horrifying stuff that he is saying here and Luke rightly leaves, uh, but not until Lord Baratheon is like, "This is not gonna happen in my house. Take it outside."

Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: Uh, so he doesn't say don't do it.

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: He says don't do it here. Uh, and that's not good. Um, maybe Luke should have stayed the night. I don't know. Uh, but he, he leaves and he goes out into the courtyard and Vhagar is nowhere to be found. And if you weren't tipped off to the fact at this point that things are really gonna get explosive, uh, here in this final few minutes of the episode, the fact that Vhagar is not here probably clues you in.

Uh, so we do get this big sequence of, uh, of Luke going off. Uh, we have Vhagar flying overhead like Jake Sully, Toruk Makto, uh, as we're seeing the giant dragon overshadowing Arrax. And we get this big dragon on dragon battle.

Richard Lawson: And it's so sad because Luke can see the golden snitch, you know, he's about to grab it and-

Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm.

Richard Lawson: ... win for Gryffindor and, uh-

Josh Wigler: Oh. [laughs]

Richard Lawson: There's a little bit of that, right? [laughs] I mean come on. There is a little quidditch to this.

Josh Wigler: [laughs] You're not wrong, which is the one, which is the one with the stormy quidditch cup? I'm trying to remember.

Richard Lawson: Oh god. You're right. I don't remember, but, um, yeah.

Josh Wigler: But it is very evocative of that. [laughs] You're not wrong.

Richard Lawson: This is probably the most special effectsy sequence we've seen on these shows, I think. Like this is like real like me- you know, multiple shots of dragon battle-

Josh Wigler: Yes.

Richard Lawson: ... sort of kind of thing, which, which feels like a new thing, but I know that that is like a big part of, um, the Targaryen lore of these wars, you know? Is these, are these dragon battles, basically. And this isn't quite that because it's an accident in a way, but-

Josh Wigler: Sure.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: But I think it does give you insight into two things, at least. One, what this looks like for the story and like when we're talking about the nuclear power of the dragons what that can actually look like. That a dragon could just snatch another dragon out of the sky like nothing, you know? There's, there's that so the stakes are huge, uh, and I think that they are, they're really, you know, filled out by this sequence.

The other thing, this is more my question to you, Richard, is so this is what it might look like literally, visually on the show as we are moving deeper into what is clearly a war that cannot be undone-

Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: ... because of this action. Um, and if we had sort of like a ponderous contemplative season of a Game of Thrones show in House of the Dragon season one, I think the lid has been blown off by the end of this season with Aemond, uh, killing Luke accidentally or not. Um, and you can imagine that there will be more of this kind of thing prevalent on the show moving forward. Were you sold? Did it, did it, did it, you know, was it effective for you? Was it a little too CGI-e? How did you feel about this? And if this is going to be more dominant on the show, what does that make you feel about the future of House of the Dragon?

Richard Lawson: It seemed a little silly at first, but then I kind of got into it, you know, because you, you felt the stakes of it. I think the most important thing is going forward. They just have to make the scenes kind of legible.

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: You know sometimes when you watch a big superhero movie and you're like, "I don't understand where anyone is in relation to anyone else and it's just this kind of swirl of action and whatever." Um, I'm hope, I hope they can avoid that. And I think that what this scene did also really well and kind of provoked questions in me is like, "Oh right. These dragons are like living creatures with like minds of their own, and yes, these noble lines have long controlled the dragons, but some of the..." Maybe, maybe it's just the younger people, don't have full control of these animals, you know?

And, um, that intrigued me about like what the dragons will mean going forward. It's like how much can they actually be relied on?

Josh Wigler: Yeah. I mean how many of these people have seen war full stop?

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: But how many of these people have seen war on dragon back, right?

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: The dragons have seen some shit, um, but have, have the dragon riders seen a ton? And even Aemond who we saw a few episodes ago, uh, in you and Mitchell's debut was the character doing, you know, really fabulously well in, uh, in a duel against Criston Cole where it seems like the gloves were pretty off. That was a spar, right?

Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: Like that was an actual battle. And so, for him to lose control over Vhagar in this moment is surprising on the number of levels. This is another instance where the show is giving us its real quote-unquote "real version" of events versus how it played out in the book. There are a lot of different interpretations, uh, according to various different sources as to how this actually happened. Did Aemond aggressively track Luke down? Was Luke's body recovered? Um, did he make good on his promise with Luke's eyes? Like there's a lot of questions about how it actually played in the book, but nowhere in there is there anything in the historical record about Aemond doing this by accident.

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: Uh, that this was a mistake. So the show is playing it that way. And yet again, we're getting this sort of, you know, like this, this tragic, um, not misunderstanding. I don't think it's, you can really, um, confuse Aemond's intention of at the very least trying to like scare his nephew to death.

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Um, but he clearly, he's very clearly vocally saying, "Vhagar, no." And Luke is saying the same towards his dragon. They don't want this to go to full-on murder rampage. They just wanna score some points. This is not how it was in the book, how this is going to play out on the show the fact that Aemond is making this huge tremendous error by accident is something that's a question for me, uh, moving forward into the, into the depth of the show but-

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... uh, was, was a big surprise.

Richard Lawson: And in terms of his characterization, it's like the minute that Aemond takes, you know, takes chase, um, to I guess continue this argument about the eyeball, you're like, "I don't think he knows how he wants this to end, but he's doing it anyway."

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: And that's I think reveals a lot about how rash he is, how maybe still young he is. That like there was no real the minute he got on the dragon and flew off in pursuit, like what did you think was going to happen?

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: Like, like what, what was the end game? Were you going to stop him mid-air and cut his eye out? Uh, you know, like that doesn't sound right, you know? Um-

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: ... so-

Josh Wigler: And what's he gonna do? He's gonna jump on the dragon and take Luke's eye?

Richard Lawson: Right.

Josh Wigler: That sounds impossible.

Richard Lawson: Right. Exactly. So like this is just like, this is just young people playing at something they don't understand and don't have control over, uh, and it had terrible consequences. And I like that the show registers that on Aemond's face.

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: He's like, "Oh god." Like... And I don't think it's just like I'm in so much trouble. I think he's like almost maybe a little sad, um, you know, maybe I'm being too generous there, but like there's, you know, this was not at all what was intended to happen and yet it did and now, um, the history of this whole nation is, um, going to be forever different.

Josh Wigler: I think it's, again, it's sort of similar to, uh, and I think to compare these characters is pretty easy. Uh, you know, it's, it's not un- it's not unlike what we, were talking about with Daemon before. He has this private moment a- alone except for the company of Vermithor, where he kind of gets to like let his guard down-

Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: ... and be sad about what he's just learned about the Targaryens. Like, you know, really looking inward to some extent. We don't know what that actually looks like, but he has this kind of quiet moment. And here's Aemond alone in the sky on the oldest living dragon in the world being a kid again, right?

Richard Lawson: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Like he's back on, uh, Driftmark. Uh, you know? They were re- replaying this old trauma and he's just, you know, settled that argument, but he's just opened up a whole new one. Uh, so, uh, yeah. I think that Ewan Mitchell plays the part really well. Uh, I was very excited to see how the show would handle Aemond, uh, this season of the show. I really, really am so fascinated by the character.

And it's an interesting shade, uh, to, to bring to him that there is, uh, whether or not it's gonna be, you know, he's gonna be apologetic about this or unapologetic about this, to know what it's kind of underneath it, um, from Aemond's perspective, I'm, I'm here for the exploration of that. Uh, so it's a bit of, a bit of a swing but I'm, I'm not mad at the swing. I think probably some people who are like the very book adherent people don't love this.

Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: I'm open to it. Uh, I'm open to seeing where they go.

Richard Lawson: Anything that complicates characters more, you know, and gives us more-

Josh Wigler: Yes.

Richard Lawson: ... of a sense of sort of causality in how things are sort of accidentally or intentionally related I think-

Josh Wigler: I don't need the mustache twirling, you know?

Richard Lawson: Yeah. Exactly. Like I, I get it. We don't need the pure, pure cartoony villain.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Yeah. I mean he looks the part enough already, you know?

Richard Lawson: Exactly. Exactly.

Josh Wigler: ... so-

Richard Lawson: Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... yeah. Um, so the final shot of the episode and indeed the season is the wordless, uh, conveyance of the information that Luke has died. Daemon comes into the room and is with, with Rhaenyra for the first time since their fight. Uh, it seems he is telling her what has happened to Luke. She walks toward the fire. She is alone with that information. Uh, we do not get to see her face until she turns around with murder, death, kill on the mind, clearly. You know, she is incensed when she turns around. Um, and that is where we leave House of the Dragon season one, Richard.

Richard Lawson: Yeah. I mean who would have guessed, uh, that that little spat between children in a cave would results in world war basically? [laughs]

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: You know?

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: And, um, but again I think the show is really smart about kind of drawing the lines between like stuff in our own history where like, you know, you read about World War One, and it's like that started because of so many stupid things that really shouldn't have led to what it did, lead to.

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard Lawson: Um, and this is kind of, you know, this Westeros' version of that. Where it's like all of this stuff is so preventable if you were just, I don't know, not gallivanting around but stride your family's legacy as Aemond is and, uh, being reckless.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Uh, so we're left with this moment where the person who is holding the realm together, I don't know, Richard, you think she's so incentivized to do that anymore?

Richard Lawson: Oh, yeah. I think it's, I think it's suddenly become not about like maintaining the piece of Westeros and now pushing back against this, you know, these people that have taken a lot from her or she sees it.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. You kind of get the sense she's like, "You know what? I could rule over ash and bone." [laughs]

Richard Lawson: I wish that they had kept the, because originally the episode ends with Rhaenyra turning to the camera and saying, "This time it's personal." Um-

Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Richard Lawson: ... that would have driven it home I think a little better.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. I didn't like that that got clipped out either, but what are you going to do? That's it.

Richard Lawson: That's it.

Josh Wigler: That's House of the Dragon season one finale and season one overall. I wanna gut check you, Richard. Heading out of the season, how you're feeling about House of the Dragon and the Game of Thrones franchise overall compared to where you were heading in?

Richard Lawson: I headed in very skeptical thinking, "Do we really need this?" You know? Especially because we've, as we talked about, you know, nine episodes ago like the original series did not end very well to my mind. Um, and as this season went on, I got more and more invested. It helps to be doing this podcast with you, certainly. Um, and, uh, yeah. I'm totally in.

I, I think that, that they have set the table so well for like not just the excitement of this blooming war and all that, but also the tragedy of it. And I think that's what, you know, the, the show, you know, it needed to be that, have that kind of thoughtful extra element, um, in order to kind of make sense as a Sunday night prestige HBO show. And I think they've accomplished that.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. I mean I think that the, the viewership was obviously huge, just the, the amount of people who tuned in for the premiere and who have hung around throughout the season. So just very clear that people have been, have been invested and were, whether or not they were ready to go back to a Game of Thrones show were at least willing to check it out, because of the size of the thing. It's almost too big to fail, but I do think on the other side of 10 episodes while it was not, uh, without its faults, uh, and I think we talked about a bunch of them here on the podcast, probably missed a ton as well, but I think, you know, by and large I think that people are, you know, it's John Wick style, right?

You keep asking if I'm back. Yeah. I'm thinking I'm back. You know, I've been getting, uh, you know, messages from friends of mine in my life outside of all of this, uh, who are the most casual of casual fans of these franchises and these types of shows. Uh, and I got one from, from one friend, a like a lifelong friend of mine who is a big Game of Thrones skeptic, was saying Game of Thrones sucked as early as season four, which was kind of wild to me, um, who said, "That was awesome." Was his take on the finale.

I loved it. So I, I think that the, the show has been a, a crowd pleaser in a lot of ways. And if this was sprawling prologue season one, then you do kind of have to wonder, well, what was it setting up? And I think that this final episode and specifically the way that it ends with the death of Rhaenyra's son, caused by the son of her old best friend and her in a position to really do something about it, it makes you very nervous for what we'll see in season two, and yet that wait, however long it's going to be, all of a sudden feels all the more painful and long and excruciating. And I don't think anyone really would have predicted that heading into the season if you had been burned by Game of Thrones it's in final season.

So I think that's a pretty big achievement, Richard. I think that's pretty huge.

Richard Lawson: Yes. And now, we cast our eyes North and await some Starks.

Josh Wigler: Yes. Indeed. All right. So that's going to do it for the House of the Dragon coverage here on Still Watching. We thank you all so much for tuning in each and every week. It's been an utter joy. I have had a blast. Richard, thank you for letting me into the Vanity Fair wheelhouse. I hope I didn't dirty the place up too much, certainly, with all of our survivor [laughs] nonsense throughout the season. But I've had so much fun. It's been so much fun doing this with you.

Richard Lawson: Thank you for doing it. I, I hope we can have you back, uh, for something soon, um, but in the immediate future of Still Watching, I will be covering with my colleague Chris Murphy, uh, the new season of The White Lotus. Another tale of wealth and death and all that stuff-

Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm.

Richard Lawson: ... but this time set in Sicily instead of, uh, you know, Westeros. So that will be the first episode.

Josh Wigler: Yes.

Richard Lawson: That will be, um, next Sunday. So stay tuned.

Josh Wigler: You know what, you know what they always say? Never mess with a Targaryen when death is on the line. Uh, so I think you'll be hearing that in the Sicily White Lotus. [laughs]

Richard Lawson: Yeah. [laughs] In, in Italian. Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Yes. Absolutely. Uh, high Italian instead of High Valyrian. I'm excited for White Lotus. I'm really excited for what you're bringing to the podcast coming, uh, next week when White Lotus is the new hotness on HBO. So make sure you're still subscribed to the Still Watching feed to make sure that you are missing, not missing out on anything that Richard and Chris are talking about when it comes to the White Lotus season two.

Uh, Richard, where can people find you on the internet? Anything else you wanna plug?

Richard Lawson: Uh, I'll be on Twitter @rilaws. And then, on vf.com. Uh, in the coming days I will have a review of the new season of White Lotus so look out for that.

Josh Wigler: Ooh. I'm looking forward to that. Um, I am [inaudible 01:07:56] wherever you can find me, uh, I will be, uh, bringing you one last, uh, House of the Dragon article on vf.com where I've been recapping the season, all season long. An interview with Greg Yaitanes. The director of this episode is coming to vf.com next for me. So if you wanna hear some behind the scenes on how this episode came together, uh, that is the thing that you wanna look out for. So make sure you're heading over to vf.com to check all of that out.

Uh, if you've got feedback for this episode or anything that you wanna get in ahead of White Lotus season two, definitely reach out stillwatchingpod@gmail.com. That's the email address, stillwatchingpod@gmail.com. Huge shouts to Dave Gonzalez who has been with us all season long, making it possible for us to fly on these freaking dragons. They are really hard to rein in. And it would be impossible to do without Dave. So thank you so much to Dave. Thank you so much to all of you out there. We've had a blast and we will see you with more House of the Dragon content whenever season two revs up. And in the meantime next week, tune in for White Lotus season two. Until then everybody, take care. Bye-bye.