Josh Wigler: Hello, and welcome back to Still Watching, the television podcast from Vanity Fair. We cover entire seasons of the hottest shows on TV, and right now we're diving deep into House of the Dragon, The Game of Thrones prequel series on HBO. I'm Josh Wigler. And here to discuss House of the Dragon: Episode Nine, here to stage a podcast coup with me, it is Richard Larson. Richard.

Richard: [laughs] A soft coup. Don't worry.

Josh Wigler: A soft coup.

Richard: Yeah, yeah. I'm not gonna be hanging anybody or-

Josh Wigler: No.

Richard: ... you know, I might bust a dragon through the floor of something but that's it.

Josh Wigler: Totally possible.

Richard: And that wasn't really the part of the coup, so.

Josh Wigler: Not really, that's like sort of like the appropriate response to a coup [laughs] I think some degree.

Richard: Yeah, yeah. That was actually Eve Best quitting the show. That's how she left set. She was like, "I've had enough."

Josh Wigler: I wish that I could say that is like the last that we will see of Rhaenys Targaryen, not because I want her to leave the show. I love the character. She has more to do for sure. Uh, but gosh, what an exit that would be, uh, [laughs].

Richard: That, that was a way to make a big move at tribal.

Josh Wigler: Yes.

Richard: To keep, to keep belaboring our survivor thing-

Josh Wigler: Uh-huh.

Richard: ... uh, that was, that was the ultimate, I have to immunity idols [laughs].

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Uh-huh. Uh, it was like the idol nullifier, I feel like. It's like one of those-

Richard: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... really unexpected twists.

Richard: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Uh, like no one prepared the, like, they had everything about Aegon's coronation prepared, but these fools, uh, they had it at the Dragonpit. You gotta make sure that the dragons are being watched.

Richard: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: It's very important that you have monitored, uh, a monitored situation on the dragons if you're hosting your, your very controversial coronation in the literal Dragonpit.

Richard: A- and maybe make sure you absolutely know where each of the Dragon riders is.

Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm. [laughs] That's also important, very important. So we are talking about Episode Nine, it is The Green Council, and of course we know that green is that Hightower color. Um, no surprise here and yet still shocking, Richard, that after eight episodes of build up, uh, of wondering like is this going to boil over into some sort of civil war type of situation, the death of King Viserys absolutely paves the way for the lid to be blown off of this slow simmering conflict-

Richard: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: ... 20 years in the making. We are officially in it now folks.

Richard: Potentially even more than 20 years because I, I think we'll have to see what next episode holds because Rhaenyra is not in this episode. And so, from what we know from this episode, it kind of seems like Rhaenys starts the Civil War. I mean, obviously-

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard: ... going over the succession, that is the, obviously the key to it. But it seems that Rhaenys is the first person to respond in force really.

Josh Wigler: Yes. So she, I mean, she is kind of, uh, yeah, the, the first representative of potentially Rhaenyra's aside of the storyline, who is, uh, who's gonna have eyes on this, uh, this, uh, highway robbery, this Hightower-way robbery of the Iron Throne. And her response is obviously seismic, but perhaps appropriate given many of the ways in which this all rolls out. Is a really tense episode of the show, for me, uh, even having read Fire and Blood, the book on which this is based and having, you know, some, some good ideas of, of how this is gonna go down. There are some swerves here for, sure, some ways in which the shows zig where the book zag, some embellishments here and there, different, like, stagings of some important scenes, like the small council scene isn't in the small council in the book.

There's a lot more of a lid kept on Viserys' his death in the book than there is on the show. I think like Viserys is left to rot in his chamber for something like a week, uh, in the book-

Richard: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: ... before they, uh, before they really get into it. Uh, before they started announcing what has happened to him. The show takes a little bit of a different path, uh, and adds a couple of things. There's one thing in particular in this episode I was like, I don't think we needed that at all. Um, looking at Larys Strong right now. Uh, but a lot that is happening in this-

Richard: [laughs] What part of Larys Strong are you looking at though? That's the question.

Josh Wigler: I'm not looking at anything. I'm doing everything-

Richard: I'm wearing my shoes. Look-

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard: I'm wearing socks and shoes right now, by the way, just in case.

Josh Wigler: Well, I'm wearing sandals, but I am-

Richard: Uh-oh

Josh Wigler: ... also wearing socks, so, uh, you know.

Richard: Okay. So, so, so practical and fashionable. That's, that's-

Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. So it's finally starting to pay off here, uh, as, uh, the socks and sandals combo is showing up. What did you think of this one, Richard?

Richard: I thought it was exciting. You know, I think there were, um, genuinely things in this episode I didn't expect to see, you know, or expect to happen. Um, I love an episode that lets an actor like Eve Best, uh, just go for it. And she's so good, um, as Rhaenys. And, um, I think, you know, I think this show overall has been pretty good about centering women in the story. I mean, and you also see that evidenced by the fact that, uh, Clare Kilner directed this episode, it was written by Sarah Hess. You have women behind the camera in two major positions. Uh, and then you close the episode with a, a character who was, you know, important, but maybe she was an interesting supporting figure, all of a sudden assert herself and, uh, in grand fashion, and that was really exciting. And, um, I genuinely don't know what happens next, which feels, uh, great.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, uh, there's no Rhaenyra in this episode. This is the first House of the Dragon episode without both Viserys Targaryen and Rhaenyra Targaryen, one of whom will return to the show for sure. Uh, but these are two really important players in the narrative thus far who are absent from the episode. And so in addition to it being the Rhaenys Targaryen breakout episode, Richard, this is really Hightower city, right?

Richard: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: You know, we really get to see what King's Landing looks like when it's covered in green. Um, what did you think about that? For me, it felt like kind of a different vibe, but in a really exciting way.

Richard: Well, yeah, right. Rhaenyra is off drinking Negroni Sbagliato.

Josh Wigler: [laughs] Yes.

Richard: ... with Prosecco.

Josh Wigler: With Prosecco.

Richard: Um, if anyone's seen the amazing video of Emma D'Arcy, saying what their favorite drink is.

Josh Wigler: I-

Richard: If you haven't seen it, go watch it.

Josh Wigler: I don't drink any more, Richard. But, uh, even now, if I were to, to get a drink, Negroni would be pretty far down on the list for me.

Richard: Yeah. Yeah, Oh, well, same, same. Um, but Emma D'Arcy makes it sound good. Um, yes, I agree that it did feel different having the Hightower ascendancy, you know, but what I think was a, an interesting, uh, aspect of that, was that aside from the fact that a Targa- you know, a platinum, blonde Targaryen i- incest Prince is going to be put in the top position. Everything else, you know, with the Hightower ascendancy and, and the king's council, that felt more like what we meet when we start Game of Thrones, with the Baratheons in power.

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard: You know, that was, they, we don't have these messianic psychos from across the sea, ruling us. Uh, we have like regular Westeros people who, um, uh, are not quite, uh, you know, they're not guided by prophet and vision and all that, and dragons and all that stuff. Um, yes, i- it was kind of a half, like there, there were absolutely Targaryens being installed into power here. But, but yeah, I thought it was, uh, uh, interesting to see like would, would the world of Kingslanding or Westeros as a whole, like, is it, it, it probably is better to have a more practical ru- uh, governorship versus this kind of magic, crazy one, um, even if they're using the magic crazy to get into power.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. I thought this episode was really interesting in conversation with the same episode of Game of Thrones, uh, the, the first episode nine of GOT, where it's not a coronation scene that you're getting at the end of Baelor, but you are getting this really big, grand, kingly moment in Joffrey's decision to, you know, off with his head to Ned Stark. And here in House of the Dragon, it is a coronation, but there are these two, big public kingly events and two different tacts are taken. With Joffrey no mercy is shown, the Cobra Kai way, uh, towards Ned Stark. And here at the end of this episode, with the queen who never was, who earlier in the episode is told by Alicent, "You should have been the Queen. It should have been you." She shows what it looks like when mercy is rendered. Uh, and she chooses not to eviscerate these people with dragon fire.

And I'm just thinking about the endings of those two different episodes and how they are both, like, they're parallel tracks, but they're very different choices that are made there.

Richard: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: And neither, uh, path, Richard, leads to peace. I can tell you. You know, like, I, I just thought that that was really interesting. I kept waiting for there to be some sort of huge, jaw dropping twist in episode nine in the Green Council as per a Game of Thrones tradition. And I think if there was a twist, the twist is like, you know what, I'm not gonna just bathe you in dragon fire. You're gonna live with this choice-

Richard: Right.

Josh Wigler: ... and you're gonna live to regret it.

Richard: Yeah, and I think that, that Rhae- Rhaenys' choice, you know, it felt sort of righteous, and not quite good exactly. But, you know, at least not outright murderous. Except that she did kill a lot of regular folks who live [laughs] who live in town.

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard: I mean, you have to imagine that dragon bursting through, swinging its tail everywhere. A lot of those towns folk who are gathered to witness the coronation, uh, did not survive. Uh, and I think that this episode-

Josh Wigler: We don't care them, right?

Richard: Well, but-

Josh Wigler: These are small folk, Richard.

Richard: I think the episode did do a good job, you know, in a way that even it didn't, that Game of Throne didn't do, of being like, right, there is a whole teaming-

Josh Wigler: Yes.

Richard: ... city of people here. And yes, they're in rags, and they live horribly, especially in Flea Bottom. It had me kind of wondering like, what's the Park Slope of King's Landing like?

Josh Wigler: [laughs]

Richard: 'Cause it's just like, you know.

Josh Wigler: Trolls city, yeah.

Richard: Yeah. But like-

Josh Wigler: The streets is colors.

Richard: ... it does kind of matter that the people applauded. You know, the, the captains was like, Oh, I don't think that the people are gonna want a female ruler, but we have to go with it because it's what Viserys wanted.

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard: And then things change. And you see this tentativeness with which Aegon, who's a drunk and a womanizer and doesn't really want to be, and a rapist, uh, doesn't really-

Josh Wigler: Yes.

Richard: ... want to be, um, doing this at all. And, and everyone's kind of nervously see, waiting to see what the crowd is gonna do, how they're gonna to react, and they seem to like it. And Aegon seems to like it. And that seems to shore up some support, which like, we, I don't think we've seen an outright, like, rebellion from the, the hoi polloi on the, on the show, the shows yet, but like, that is something that people, I'm sure, in power would have to think about. And so, whereas I think it's fun in a narrative TV watching sense that Rhaen- Rhaeny's did what she did. Was it smart? Because now the people of King's Landing are probably not pro that side-

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard: ... based on what happened.

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard: And so is it better to established this fear? And if you were gonna do it, why not go all the way and just kill everyone else? You know.

Josh Wigler: No half measures, Walter.

Richard: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: You know, I think, uh, that's, it's a very interesting point. I think it's also really worth putting that pin in, um, in what is the perspective of the, of the people on the streets, uh, of, of King's Landing? And how are they feeling about the ascendancy of Aegon Targaryen? How are they gonna respond to Rhaenys' big move here? And how is that gonna splash back on Rhaenyra who may not have been a popular choice to begin with? I think all these are really important questions to keep in mind as the show is clearly evolving into its next stage.

Um, and whether or not we really get rooted in the perspective of the people of King's Landing, I certainly hope so at a certain point in time. We're not totally there yet, but I do agree that this episode, I think, did the best job of that since maybe, was it episode four, um, when Rhaenyra and Daemon are, are going out, uh, for their memorable night out on the town.

Um, a lot is changing here in House of the Dragon. Uh, a lot is happening here on the podcast, is we're just going to have one more beyond this point. We have the season finale coming your way next week. We would love to get your feedback in anticipation of that. You can send it in stillwatchingpod@gmail.com. That's stillwatchingpod@gmail.com. We've got a good amount of feedback for this episode as well, which we'll get into deeper into the episode. But first, let's recap it. We'll do it scene by scene right after this quick commercial break. Stay tuned.

All right, Richard. We are back. We are talking about the Green Council. It is directed by Clare Kilner, it is written by Sarah Hess. And it begins with, um, a series of scenes that felt almost like, um, like a promo, uh, reel for me. Uh, like I can see the alternate world where this is like the season two teaser, Richard. We're going through King's Landing, we're going through the Red Keep. It's quiet. There's no activity. The throne room is empty. All these rooms are empty, and just Ramin Djawadi is haunting piano keys are being tickled underneath it all. It's a dark night, it's torch lit and then we are swallowed into the drama of Viserys Targaryen is dead, uh, and how-

Richard: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... that is, uh, going to be rippling out everything. That's a very haunting opening I thought.

Richard: Especially because you, you then start to think, Oh no, it's so bad that these people know this, you know [laughs].

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard: It's so bad that this kid knows it, that this maid knows it. I mean, you know, we kind of later find out that, you know, there are spies within the castle, so not everyone is innocent, but, like, uh, yeah, this is dangerous information.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Uh, team spies by the way, let me just, uh, say.

Richard: Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, look-

Josh Wigler: Generally speaking, like just, cool, cool job, really cool job but, uh.

Richard: Yeah, and, and, and it's working, you know, th- this all powerful, ruling class, but like, well, there are some cracks in that if, if people who are hiding in the shadows can have a big effect on things.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Larys Strong is gonna talk about the, the, the web of spiders and the network they have weaved in here, and like I kind of wanna see like, what's the SD-6 of King's Landing?

Richard: [laughs] Right.

Josh Wigler: I kind of, I kind of wanna know, like, I want some more, like, intentional in universe wig work. Is, is that too much to ask for, Richard? I don't know.

Richard: Are we gonna meet House Rambaldi next season?

Josh Wigler: [laughs] Yeah. Yes. This whole thing is an alias prequel. Uh, pretty happy about that. Um, so Alicent is going to, to hear the news, uh, that Viserys has died. Um, she and Otto are going to be alone together. Uh, and she is going to reveal to Otto that he, she was with him, uh, you know moments before he passed away and that his last wish, among his final words, were for Aegon to be the king. Uh, she says, "It's the truth, it was his last wish, it was his last words to me and I was the only one to hear it and now he is dead."

So Richard, this episode is really going to lean in on the idea of Alicent really fully believing, it seems like, uh, this, this, you know, miscommunicated bit of information that Vicerys wants Aegon to sit on the throne and not Rhaenyra. Um, and I wondered how much you feel like is this her really authentically believing in that? Is this something that is, uh, a little more desperate and confused than that? Uh, to pull in some of the feedback a little bit early. We had gotten this from Brianna, who had written in and said I wanted to bring in a wrinkle from the last episode, Lord of the Tides. Regarding the last scene with Alicent and Vicerys, you mentioned that Alicent may have confused Vicerys' ramblings on Aegon to mean her son should be on the throne, and that there's no malice but innocent confusion. But when she asks him, "Our son?" He pointedly says, "No."

So even if Alicent assumes Vicerys' rambling mad with the rest of his message, or is confused about, in general, since she doesn't know about the dream, she knows that she doesn't have the only Aegon in the realm. And who's to say Vicerys isn't talking about Rhaenyra's Aegon. So my question to you after that, Richard, is do you feel like this episode bears out that Alicent really authentically misinterpreted what Vicerys had to say about Aegon in his final moments? Or is this like, is this a convenience for her? Or is she even lost in some measure of like the panic of the situation?

Richard: Well, I, I think you could look at it a couple of ways. Like, maybe Alicent heard what she wanted to hear. Um, but also, I think maybe it was an innocent mistake. A, because she doesn't know about this mythology that he was-

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard: ... I think he was referring to, and B, like, why wouldn't he be talking about his own son on what looked to be his deathbed? Why would he be referencing the first ever, you know, guy from however long ago?

Um, so I think this was a genuinely, innocent misunderstanding that o- obviously, is getting out of hand and leading to terrible things. But I, I don't know. I think Alicent is more about just protecting the family and herself than she is about holding ultimate power. That's kind of her father's thing. I think maybe there's 40% of Alicent that wants that power too. I'm not saying she's totally-

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard: ... chucked out of the game.

Josh Wigler: Well, that's what, uh, Rhaenys is gonna say like, "You never thought about yourself on the Iron Throne?"

Richard: Right.

Josh Wigler: Alicent can't really respond to that. She's like, "I thought about it."

Richard: Well, like, well, of course, I mean, how could you not, you know.

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard: Because ma- maybe if she maybe that is just viewed as simple safety. You know, like, if I'm on top, then there are, you know, like, I'm that much less at risk, or I'm more at risk. I don't know. So I think Alicent continues to be a fascinating character, because it's not really clear, um, and in a smart way, not in a lazy writing way. It's not really clear what she wants exactly. And I think that's because she's figuring it out as she goes.

Josh Wigler: I think that that's probably the key for me, is I'm, I'm more clear on what she believes right now. I think that she believes that Viserys intended for Aegon to sit-

Richard: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... on the throne. I am still less clear on what it is she really wants. You know, like, I think, like, those are two different things. And what does Alicent actually want out of this situation? Probably would be to be like, out of this situation, uh, to like, not be in this situation-

Richard: Right.

Josh Wigler: ... I think is the thing that she would want the most. Um, now, that she is, I think you, you break it down quite eloquently of like, maybe I'm on top so that I'm less at risk, but perhaps being on top puts me more at risk. There aren't a lot of great directions for her to go in.

Richard: Well, right. And you, you have to think about like, what is the conversation she had with teenage Aegon, like, the first time we met him, was like-

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard: ... you have to take this seriously because, like, when she becomes queen, you, we are all in danger. So she knows that too. So maybe, okay. By the, you know, somehow by the, the grace of the seven, my husband, right before he died, changed his mind, thus protecting us for one more tribal, you know, like-

Josh Wigler: Yeah, right.

Richard: ... like we are okay for the next round of this game. But look, these people are in a precarious position no matter what. And I think that's the poignancy of what the show has done. I think the most poignant thing this show has done so far, is show these characters who are stuck both by choice and by circumstance, by chance, in these positions, like that glimmer of the, a way out. A way to just walk away. It's not realistic for most of them, but like that, that it kind of hangs there in the distant periphery must be sort of, sort of, you know, painfully tantalizing that like maybe there's a life where I just kind of like enjoy myself for once.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Yeah, when she talks about like, you know, Vicerys would have been happy to just be a country Lord. I feel like-

Richard: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... part of that is like, "And I would have been really happy to just stay in old town."

Richard: That's probably everyone in this groups fantasy, ultimately, and I mean not-

Josh Wigler: Except for Otto.

Richard: ... not the really power hu- not the really power hungry people, but like a lot of the others are like, "Jeez, so you're saying I could just be rich and ineffectual-

Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm.

Richard: ... somewhere like in a castle? That sounds nice."

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Otto really does feel like he's now living his best life. Uh, as we-

Richard: Oh, he's proud. Yeah, yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... as we go to the small council meeting where we're gonna be for, for a good chunk of time and this was really awaited, uh, scene of like, how is this gonna be... This information, how's it gonna be meted out and the people who are gonna re- resist in this moment and how that's gonna go. Uh, so this was a really exciting sequence for me, even as it was a bit different from, from how the book goes, but it does feel to me like Otto is like, from here on throughout this episode, he's like, his belt is like one notch looser, you know. Like he's, like, really able to like stop holding in the ambition and just lay it all out on the table.

He tells everybody, uh, so we've got some bad news, uh, the bad news and the good news. The bad news is Vicerys is dead. The good news is he wants Aegon to succeed him. And so all of these secrets schemes that we've been plotting, unbeknownst to everybody else, including Alicent, we can just turn the key and activate all of that. So it seems like these contingencies have been in place with at least a group of small council, Richard, that they were preparing for the day that Vicerys died, that they would stage this coup one way or the other.

Richard: Oh, yeah, yeah. This was... They had never accepted Rhaenyra, you know. And it was all just a waiting game and a plotting game and, and you know, kind of quietly getting people aligned with them. Um, and the tragedy of that is that Alicent, I think, genuinely didn't know that this was happening.

Josh Wigler: She seems to, yeah, it seems to be that's the case, that Alicent seems to be-

Richard: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... really upset that this has happened. Uh, that, that, um, that Otto has made these moves, that he's ready to like... He's identified the people on the City Watch who are loyal to Daemon, let's get rid of those people. Um, let's you know, uh, get to, to Dragonstone and give them the chance, but we're not really gonna give them the chance. And we'll probably just kill Rhaenyra and her entire family. Like, Alicent, uh, would not have approved of any of this, she knows that Vicerys would not have approved of any of this. And this is, this is sideswiping her, this... You know, she's already sort of, in some measure of mourning. There's a shell shock quality about Alicent here, even if she believes that her husband wanted, authentically, their son to be the ruler and she wants to honor that or whatever it is that she's, you know, wanting to do or choosing to do. She doesn't want it to be done in this like horrific, shadow, schemey way.

Uh, so she's sort of the first objector, like, vocal objector in the room, but she's far from the last vocal objector in the room, as poor Lord Lyman Beesbury is going to, to die for speaking his mind.

Richard: Yes, yeah, uh, at the hands of a increasingly erratic rash, Criston, who I think is emerging as this fascinatingly broken character who-

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard: ... is like, like, he got rejected by one girl like 15 years ago [laughs]. And-

Josh Wigler: He's carried that a good long way, yeah.

Richard: ... he's now like crazy. And I think, you know, that's just further like, Alicent is like, what situation am I in?

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard: You know, and she's realizing that like, these men that she... You know, she knew that her father manipulated her into getting into Vicerys' good graces, but I think that she had let herself think, well, you know, like, that was then, this is now. Like, I think I'm respected here. I think I have genuine power here. I think Criston is like a genuine, trusty ally. And now she's like, no, all of these guys are crazy. And all... The- they don't really think about me at all. I'm just a pawn that now is increasingly less valuable.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, uh, she's just a player on the board.

Richard: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: But she, she feels like she has some pieces of her own. And I think that she thinks of Criston, maybe she thinks of Criston in that way. I don't, I don't quite know how she views him. When she's going to talk to him later and send him out to King's Landing, uh, you know, she is gonna trade on the like, how ever you feel about me, you have to know how important this is. Um, you know, it feels like she is really leaning into that power dynamic of I helped you, I scratch your back, time to scratch mine.

Um, in any event, Criston, yeah, he just is vibrating with all of this fury that has been collecting over these past few years. And it kind of feels like he's here in this moment where like he's going to have yet another opportunity to just off a person, uh, and maybe get away with it. So some form of like murder or truth comes out in Criston Cole. As, uh, Lord Beesbury is the, is the only person in the room up to this point, who is saying that this is not right. Uh, Aegon is an imposter. Uh, people swore their oath to, to Rhaenyra. I'm an old man. I'm 76, uh, I do not believe that this is what the Vicerys would have wanted, especially with his wife as his only witness. This is treason. Uh, and for the, the sheer crime of speaking the truth, Criston, uh, bashes Lord Beesbury's head into the table, one shots him. That's the end of Lyman Beesbury.

The book has it, uh, that there's no question that Lord Beesbury died at this moment and, uh, uh, in, in this capacity of speaking the truth and, and, and dying for it. Um, but I think that the- there's a lot of questions about how it played out. There's some perspectives in the book that he gets locked up and just sent, uh, sent to the dungeons. Um, there's another version where he has his throat slit in the room by Criston Cole. Another really wild version where Criston Cole just throws them out a window. Uh, so the show went a different route. But Lord Beesbury's days were numbered the moment he showed up on screen. I was really curious to see how they were gonna do this.

Richard: Yeah, and this is sort of the head smash heard around the world. You know, this is-

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard: ... the first death in this war. And, uh, the, the sort of small little, you know, pathetic tragedy of Beesbury is that like, no one's gonna remember that, you know.

Josh Wigler: Right, yeah.

Richard: This won't be the, but it is, this is a huge deal that this happens.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, blood has been spilled. Uh, and, and it's a big deal, uh, for, for Harold Westerling, the Graham McTavish character who has kind of just been the strong, silent type for so much of this show. Uh, he's gonna to speak his mind. He's going to kind of have a barest in the bold kind of moment here, where he pulls his sword out against Criston, Criston pulls his out in kind, you think that this might turn into like a full on battle here in the small council chamber. And ultimately, it deescalates to a point. But Harold is going to quit on the spot. Um, so he's gonna... He was the Lord Commander of the, of the Kingsguard. He shall be Lord Commander no more. He's gonna strip off his cloak and say, "I recognize no authority, but the kings and until there is one, I have no place here." And he walks out of the room.

Richard: But he's sort of leaving the window open, I could come for the door open.

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard: I could come back if, once you guys figure this out. I just don't wanna be part of this, part of, you know, this, this, this interim thing. No, thank you.

Josh Wigler: With him out of the room, with, uh, with Harold gone, there are, uh, there are questions about next steps. Uh, and this is where Otto is really saying well, we're gonna have to imprison Rhaenyra and they're gonna be given an opportunity to bend at the knee. And Alicent says, "You know they're not gonna do it. Daemon is never bending the knee to you. Uh, you're just planning on killing them off." Uh, and Otto like, "Well, you know, basically yes, that's basically what I'm, what I'm planning to do. Uh, so the stakes are established in this moment that this does not look good for the folks on Dragonstone who know nothing of this at this point in time.

Richard: We've all been in a position where our father tells us to our face, I wanna kill your friend from grade school, you know?

Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Richard: Like, it's just something that happens.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, you don't forget that. Uh, that really stuck with me. It was pretty [laughs] pretty horrific moment. Um, Helaena, uh, we're gonna get like the perspective of the, of the kids as they're gonna find out that their father is gone. Helaena has a really dramatic reaction. Uh, she is there with her, with her children, uh, just, you know, hanging out with her kids when she gets the news that the Vicerys is gone. Uh, she has no idea where Aegon is either. Uh, she says something about a beast beneath the boards, uh, Richard. Uh, is she, she for telling the arrival of, uh, of Rhaenys on dragon back at the end of this episode?

Richard: Well, hadn't you mentioned a few weeks ago that she might have that thing? What was it? I forget the term, what the term was.

Josh Wigler: It seem, it seems like, uh, it seems like she's a Targaryen dreamer. It seems like-

Richard: Targaryen dreamer. That's right, yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... she's one of the Targaryens who does have that ability to, to, to see some glimpse of the future.

Richard: Right, which, you know, then you kind of... I start to wonder just from a, you know, TV writing perspective, like okay, so she's just gonna pop up on occasion and say something kind of creepy mystical or is that like, is, is Helaena gonna sort of entered this in a bigger way at some point? I don't know. I kind of like her as this just sort of, she kind of floats in for a second, says something interesting and then floats away. But, um, I don't know. Maybe they have bigger plans for her.

Josh Wigler: Helaena's read the book. She has the spoilers. Uh, so, you know.

Richard: [laughs] Yeah, right.

Josh Wigler: Tread, tread lightly around Helaena. Aemond comes in, he- he's catching wind of the news. And just the way that Aemond looks, this really seems like a man who's like, okay, time to do the thing I was born for I'm ready to go to war. Let's do this.

Richard: Born for and yet also not quite born for, because, you know, he's, he- he's like, okay, now my family is swinging into action. But like, he wants to be the one that everyone is, you know, trying to install into power, but he's not quite there.

Josh Wigler: Uh, quite of a second son.

Richard: But I'm sure he hasn't planned for that too.

Josh Wigler: Yes, uh, we'll see. Um, so we're gonna get into this, um, to this moment, where Alicent and Otto are basically going to send their field agents out on this, uh, this mission to retrieve Aegon. No one knows where Aegon is. Aegon is missing. He has gone out somewhere into King's Landing to do some sort of horrible, unspeakable thing, probably, uh, and he needs to be retrieved in order to be installed on the throne. And I think initially, I was a little confused about why are Otto and Alicent working in this way that is so counter to one another, where I've landed with it, and I really want to know your interpretation, is it feels to me like they both know, whoever gets to him first, gets to sort of set the tone of this thing.

Uh, like if Otto gets Aegon first, he can in- he can instruct him on why this has to happen and what has to happen and why that has to happen. Alicent gets to do the same thing, and the stakes for Alicent are, if I get to Aegon first, then maybe, just maybe I can convince him to rule kindly rather than cruelly. Um, that seems to be the stakes to me of like, who needs to retrieve Aegon before the other.

Richard: Yeah, I think that's exactly it. You just have to... This guy, he doesn't wanna be in this position. He's a self-involved jerk, you know, and worse, and, uh, but he is malleable to, I mean, we see that later, you know, uh, kind of in a scary way when, when he starts to really take in the, the roar of the crowd. Um, and so I think the, the thinking is, all I ha-... I mean, the best I can do in this moment is get there first and say my piece and hopefully that just sticks in. This kid doesn't have like object permanence, you know, [laughs] not object permanence-

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard: ... but like he's just so impressionable that like, um, that will be the kind of presiding ethos if, if I can just incept it into him, basically.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Um, so, Otto's henchmen for the job are gonna be the brothers, Cargill, uh, Eric and Erik. Uh, so, uh, they now have story involvement. And you're gonna have to keep track of an Eric and an Erik. Good luck, I wish you well in the wars to come. As one of them is going to be pretty clearly like, fine with what's going on here. Uh, one of them is like, well, I'm a member of the Kingsguard, and if Aegon is the king, then that's my job. And the other, and I believe it is Eric, uh, is going to be pretty disgusted with what he has seen of Aegon and what he is seeing happening right now. And is going to be, uh, if not decisively team Rhaenyra then at the very least team, not Aegon. Team, this is not okay.

Richard: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: Uh, so their storyline is gonna be going around King's Landing and the brothers sort of having a little bit of like a philosophical debate about is this right? Is any of this okay? Meanwhile, Criston, and Aemond are being sent off, uh, that the fate of the Seven Kingdoms depends on them finding Aegon first, and initially, it's just Criston, who is going to be sent off, but Aemond insists that he comes along. That it's not just, uh, the, the brothers Cargill who know where Aegon goes at night, as Aegon's brother, Aemond has a couple of ideas of where to look.

Richard: Well, he thinks he does. And I think it's interesting that Aemond is kind of wrong. You know, right?

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard: I'm, I'm remembering that right. Like, like, like, he goes to the one brothel and the woman's like, "He hasn't been here in ages." Like-

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard: ... he does other things. You know, and then we see, you know, Eric, and Erik, like, at the child fighting pits.

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard: Um, you know, and clearly, he's been there because, look, there's this blond, headed bastard, I think we're supposed to assume. And they're like, "Well, one of many." You know.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, yeah. I think that's the, that's the right interpretation, is that, uh, there's, there's at least one illegitimate child of Aegon's that is in King's Landing that we have eyes on in, uh, this series of scenes.

Richard: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: And I, I think it's an astute observation that they seem to know what Aegon is up to better than, uh, Aegon's own family. And that is probably a, you know, a, a pretty important takeaway, right?

Richard: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Of like, these people can see a little more clearly what's going on with this kid.

Richard: And i- i- it's, you know, it's crucial to Aemond in particular, where it's like, what little we've seen of him or know of him so far is like, he's very competent. You know, he's good with the sword. He's strategic. He's whatever. Um, he doesn't really have the social game, but, you know, whatever, tha- that matters less.

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard: Um, but like, he doesn't actually have all of the, the pieces in front of him. Like, he- he's not as aware and up on things as he, at least when it comes to his brother, which is a problem because his brother is about to be king.

Josh Wigler: Right. Uh, so he and Criston will go to, um, to this brothel first. And like you said, uh, this woman is going to say, "He's not here. Hasn't been here in years. His tastes are known to be less discriminating," uh, is what she says of him. Uh, and then when she sizes up Aemond, who has not identified himself, she has this line of, how you've grown.

Richard: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: Um, which I thought was pretty upsetting. Uh, Aemond had come here on his 13th name day is what he says. I think some, some pretty, uh, unsavory implications with, with Aemond. And I think that the show has done a decent job, at least, at least for me so far, I don't know about for you, of like rooting aim in like this, this man, like this, this this guy who's gonna have one eye on the prize, of like, I should be on the throne, or at the very least, we need to be in charge. Um, has really been like, molded for this, but there's a lot of trauma underneath his life as well. Uh, he's a really interesting character Aemond Targaryen, to me.

Richard: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I, I think this, this show has done a real... I mean, Game of Thrones Prime did it too, but like this show is 'cause it's so steeped in like dynastic, you know, life and, and, and struggle, that like most of these people have had, despite their immense privilege, pretty miserable life.

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard: You know, for one reason or another, or mul- multiple reasons. Well, you know, this is a kid who was horribly disfigured in a fight that he kind of started, 'cause he was being a jerk, and, but all these other things have happened to him. He has his brother who's a monster. He has a grandfather who, you know, God knows what. Like, you know, I think Aemond is being sort of pitched not as a villain, but as a something, an antihero, let's say.

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard: Um, and yet, yeah, we can still extend some empathy to what was sure- surely a rough upbringing.

Josh Wigler: Uh, this is, this whole series of scenes, a lot is kind of like intercutting with, with, uh, with each other. A lot of these, uh, movements of the episode of the hunt for Aegon is happening with all these, uh, with, with the brothers Cargill, with, uh, with Aemond and Criston. But meanwhile at the Red Keep, Otto is trying to contain this as best as he can as well. He's assembled a bunch of lords and ladies to give them the news about what happened with Viserys and how he had changed his mind, it's not gonna be Rhaenyra, it's going to be Aegon.

Many of the people in the room, bend the knee immediately. Uh, uh, one person wants to leave to consult with his family, and Otto says, "You're not allowed to leave without declaring your intention." Uh, this man says, "I'm no oathbreaker. I will not bend the knee." Um, one other woman, uh, you know, signs on to that statement. And of course, they are immediately escorted out, uh, with, uh, this one last Lord who does finally bend the knee, he says, "Long live the king." He will be apprehended momentarily. He will be, uh, caught trying to leave the castle, uh, and he will be hanged for it. Uh, so clearly, he's just trying to hold out a little bit longer so he can get out in time to spread the word.

I thought that this whole series of sequences around Otto Hightower and the the, the reception of the news of Vicerys' death and Aegon's ascension. And like what do you do in the immediate face of a rising dictatorship? Or at least this incredibly, um, naked power grab that's happening right now? I thought that this was, this is fascinating material.

Richard: Yeah, I mean, because the situation, not just for the family, but for everyone kind of in their orbit. Like, it became so dire so fast. You know, I mean, maybe they should have seen it coming and had a plan. But, um, it also was just like, is the implication that Otto Hightower and his cohort are like, having lords and ladies of, of like old houses murdered? You know, because if that's the case, that's pretty serious, right?

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Well, if they are, if they're committing to this, to this reality, right? If they are committing to the reality that Viserys's is dying wish was that Aegon sits on the Iron Throne, and he is the king now. And if you do not bend the knee to the king, then you are an oathbreaker, then they need to commit all the way, I guess, you know?

Richard: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Full measure, like they have to, they have to treat these people as if they are traitors to the crown.

Richard: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Uh, and make examples of them. I mean, have to is, you know, a choice of words, but I think from their perspective, it's like, if we're gonna go and do this, we have to do this all the way.

Richard: Right.

Josh Wigler: Uh, so yeah, I do think that they're rounding these people up and I suspect that they are not letting them walk away, uh, after they're making these decisions.

Richard: Which of course creates enemies in their, in their families, if they are, if the families are also killed. And then it creates the kind of bureaucratic headache of having to install someone else to rule that house or whatever. And you know, so like this is already has really far ranging implications. Um, but Highto- Otto, Otto seems like, nope, I know what I'm doing. Like, let's, let's keep moving forward.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Um, one, uh, one last bit on, on this series of scenes, is that, um, we are going to see Larys Strong is the one who, uh, who comes to Otto Hightower and basically talks about how there are spies within your house and I know who to connect you with. And Otto is going to talk to Larys about you spent a lot of time with my daughter, haven't you? And Larys will say, "There's no reason why the hours I've spent with the queen can't benefit you." So here we're seeing with Larys Strong, a little bit of playing all the sides that he can. Uh, like a little bit of the complexity to his political maneuvering here, as he's seeing different possible advantages to being with a, a couple of different sides of this equation.

Richard: Right. And what he's moving into, I think, as we see with this foot scene at some- is, uh, later, is that he is kind of tipping the scales where actually, Alicent is kind of in, uh, he's in, under his control, you know?

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard: Because he's like, he's cozied up to dad. Alicent is in a very precarious position. And he's the one, Larys, who holds all of the sort of strings and, and, and, you know, can, can sway power. And so that's been an interesting dynamic to watch kind of shift over the course of the past, you know, however many episodes.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, so sticking with Alicent, uh, we're gonna have a couple of scenes with her. There is the scene where she is with Viserys's his body as he is wrapped up and taken away. And then she is going to come to Rhaenys, to the queen who never was, who is still in town. She did not leave, uh, alongside the rest of her relatives, apparently. So she has had a front row seat to everything that is happening. She's been locked in her chambers. She's just hearing all the pandemonium outside. And when Alicent comes to her, Rhaenys is no dummy, Richard, she figures out pretty quickly, uh, the king is dead, and you're usurping the throne.

Richard: Right, right.

Josh Wigler: Uh, so this scene between these two, uh, women, I thought was, uh, was really, really memorable.

Richard: Yeah, and you can see Rhaenys's wheels turning, you know, I mean, the wheels have already been turning, but like here she's like okay, now we're fi-... I can't believe we're actually here.

Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm.

Richard: I kind of thought this maybe it was never gonna happen. Um, and I gotta figure out what I'm doing without my husband. You know, I've got dead children, or at least she thinks, two dead children.

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard: For all intensive purposes, um, he is dead. Um, you know, and I think it's co- connecting from this scene to the last one, it's really interesting to think what her thought process is. And like, I don't know that she's necessarily trying to get under Alicent's skin for any reason, but to make a point, you know. I don't know if it's strategic necessarily to say to Alicent, don't you think... Didn't you ever think about it yourself? You know, blah, blah, blah.

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard: Um, I think she knows that her back is very much up against the wall for now, um, but still, you know, she's not out of it. She's still, she's still on her feet.

Josh Wigler: Well, I think that she's in a fascinating position, where, you know, she... I think that she has always seen this pretty clearly, you know, she was saying this to the Sea Snake for, for years, and for episodes, certainly, uh, where she says, "The closer we get to the center of this thing, the, the more dangerous it's gonna become. You're dragging our family into the eye of the storm." Um, so she-

Richard: And-

Josh Wigler: ... she has seen this for, for many moons now.

Richard: ... and she said it to Rhaenyra when Rhaenyra was a little kid.

Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm. Yes.

Richard: She said, "They would rather put the whole thing to the torch than see you ahead of it." And then-

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard: ... at the end of the episode, she has the opportunity to put the royal family to the torch and she doesn't.

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard: And, um, so I think she's like, I'm not one of those. I know those guys, they are gonna take over, but I'm just, I'm sort of not opting out. I'm just kind of pivoting a little bit.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. So I, I think that she's like, she has this choice in front of her of someone who can see so clearly that she can, you know, she can lean in and not necessarily tip the scales, but she c- I think it would tip the scales to a large degree if she has control over Driftmark and she and the Velaryon fleet are now in the pocket of the Hightowers, that would be huge for the Hightowers who already possess a bunch of dragons, including Vhagar, uh, and, and so much else. And clearly, literally, they control King's Landing right now.

Um, she could lean in and that would be, uh, that would be the safe move, but would it be right? You know, would this be at all even remotely okay, uh, for, for her to do this, and especially when it's something that she has probably had a lot of time to think about this inevitability, as we're outlining that she was talking to Rhaenyra about this, you know, 20 some odd years earlier, almost at this point. Um, so she's, in this room, effectively gonna give her answer of like, thanks, but no thanks. Um, she will give that answer in a much louder way, a few scenes from now.

But I really appreciated having this, having the scene and having this moment between Alicent and Rhaenyra, or Rhaenys rather, uh, and getting this moment for the two of them to kind of size each other up and, uh, see each other for who they really are.

Um, Otto is going to meet Mysaria, the White Worm. Uh, he has been clued in to the fact that she might know a thing or two, about a thing or two, including the fact that Vicerys's dead, which is information that should not have reached her at this point. Otto seems, you know, pretty shook by the fact that she knows this.

Richard: Genuinely, yeah. I think it's the first we've really seen, seen him phased in a while, you know?

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard: Uh, he's like, wait, wait a second. And he immediately is like, give her the money [laughs]. Give her the money.

Josh Wigler: Yes.

Richard: Like we need to know what's going on.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's like someone who, who thinks that they've got like, uh, their, their thumb on the game. Like this is, this is like if Boston Rob in Redemption Island doesn't know about a thing that's happening, which would be absolutely ridiculous, because all, all the people on Redemption Island were terrible at survivor and Boston Rob was the master.

Richard: [laughs] Right.

Josh Wigler: And what if all of the sudden Steve Wright was secretly controlling the game? Uh, you'd be freaked out. And so I think here-

Richard: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... Otto's, like, Wait a second, somebody knows more than I do. Or somebody knows something that I thought I had on severe lockdown. And he seems really, really shaken by it.

Richard: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Uh, he seems really genuinely, utterly surprised. And I think it does position Mysaria as somebody who, uh, should not be taken lightly.

Richard: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: And whether or not Otto walks away from this interaction, is like, this is a valuable person to have in my corner, or I have to kill that person fast. Uh, you know, that's sort of the question that I think we're left with right now.

Richard: It's a bit like on Heroes vs. Villains when no one knew who Russell Hantz was 'cause they hadn't watched the season yet.

Josh Wigler: Right, yes. Yeah.

Richard: And then everyone was like, wait a second [laughs]. This guy keeps doing stuff that I didn't see coming.

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard: Um, so, so just a quick thing about, um, how she knew about, when she's lighting the candles in the window, right?

Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm.

Richard: That, that was, that was the signal right? Tha- that's how... We were supposed to read that.

Josh Wigler: Right. So I think Talia who was Alicent's, uh, handmaiden, lights the candle, I think that's the signal. Yeah, I think it's-

Richard: Yeah, okay.

Josh Wigler: And this is like preparedness, right? This is appropriate levels of preparedness for the espionage network here of like, that man's gonna die soon. We should probably have some sort of easy call sign so that we can be ahead of the game once that goes down.

Richard: Right.

Josh Wigler: Uh, so yeah, I think that that is, uh, that's how I took that as well. So she's gonna give the location of Aegon, 'cause she knows everything. Uh, and she's trading this not just for money, but also she wants Otto's word that basically like child fight club stops. Uh, like the treatment of children in Flee Bottom, it's been obscene and horrible. And either you're tolerating it or it's gone completely ignored. I want you to address it. That's sort of her terms. Otto promises to look into it.

Richard: It's interesting that she has like politics.

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard: You know, I kind of assumed that she was just, like, doing everything for her own self-interest. But like, no, she like actually has issues that she cares about.

Josh Wigler: When we, when we saw her back in, I think it was episode two on Dragonstone with Daemon, she has, you know, that big speech with him, of like I, I came to you to be liberated from fear, you know.

Richard: Right.

Josh Wigler: Um, like I didn't, I didn't wanna be treated the way that I was treated my entire life anymore. I think that she has... that energy has followed her into this position of power that she has, um, found herself in. Uh, where I do think authentically, at least I buy, that she wants better for the people of the world.

Richard: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Uh and that if she is in this, you know, position to, to wield information sharply, that that's the, those are the, the, the angles that she's going for. That's what she wants to cover. That's what she wants to fix. Um, whether or not, you know, she's aligning herself with the right person, I feel like especially through this episode, we know enough about Otto Hightower that I don't think that that's really something that he gives any kind of care about,

Richard: Oh, no, no, no, no.

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard: But look on Game of Thrones original, we saw when one woman gains the favor of a bunch of very downtrodden people, like how powerful that can be.

Josh Wigler: Yes.

Richard: Uh, in, in Daenerys, obviously, with Mhysa, um, you know, uh, so I don't know. Like, we should definitely keep our eyes on her in a way that I didn't think we needed to before.

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard: Like, because we spent so much time with the town's folk in this episode, and here we have someone who was advocating for the most downtrodden of those people, uh, as a huge power shift happens. Like she's... That's, that's a really interesting dynamic to have now introduced into the show.

Josh Wigler: Sh- she's kind of, um, for the show at this moment in time, the voice of the people, right?

Richard: Right.

Josh Wigler: Like, I think that she's sort of representing that contingent that has gone unrepresented on the show in, in many regards. So absolutely, somebody to keep, uh, keep on our radar, for sure. Um, we get to this final, uh, this final clash of swords over who gets to Aegon. Uh, Eric and Erik find him first, but Criston and Aemond have been following them. And so there's, you know, a little bit of like, okay, we need to... It's been a while since we've had some swordplay on the show. So we just have to have a little bit of a quick skirmish here, uh, to, to wrap this story up.

Richard: Yeah, I was glad that the quick skirmish didn't end in blood, you know, bloodshed. That was a relief.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Uh, or like, if you could just get rid of one of Eric and Erik would be a little easier to follow maybe.

Richard: Well, sure.

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard: But I don't know, I really liked them in this episode. They had a nice energy to them. You know, uh, they seemed descent.

Josh Wigler: Okay. I was, I was curious, 'cause I, I, I think like, they kind of come out of nowhere. And they do have a really important role to play in, in this episode, of not just like trying to find Aegon, but having, you know, sort of representing like, the Thanksgiving dinner table of like you and your uncle who wildly disagree about the state of the world, uh, and what should be done about it, and how you don't wanna have that conversation. But when you do have that conversation, it's gonna be hard for it to not be kind of explosive. It feels like Eric and Erik sort of represent that energy in their conflicting opinions about Aegon. Um, and I, I really liked seeing that because I like the, the story of these characters, I think is a, is an interesting one. But I was, I was curious to know how it would read for like, this is sort of them coming into the story-

Richard: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... at this really important moment, almost completely out of nowhere.

Richard: Maybe they could have been introduced a little bit more, you know, in past episodes, just so we could really be able to follow this most, most, you know, most clear- clearly but, um, yeah, they're an interesting energy. I, I think that part of it, and why I keep going back, back to like this King's Landing citizens too, is that so much of this season has been so cloistered in just this small group of people, that it's nice in this episode that we zoom out a little bit to see the Cargills and then a lot to see the, the people of King's Landing to be like, right, there are a lot of other people in this and affected by it and who aren't just totally cowering in fear the whole time. Like, they, they actually act, they make choices, they defend themselves, et cetera.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, so Criston and Aemond are going to win out over Eric and Erik, and we, we see them grab Aegon, they bring Aegon back home, and Otto and Alicent are going to do the, the post-mortem on all this. They're gonna recap the day. Uh, and Otto says, "Wow, well done, a charming contest." And I feel like this is, this is a real gloves off scene between father and, and daughter at this moment in time, where Otto said, "Listen, we've, you know, we've depended on each other. Now, like everything is for the good of the family. I don't know why our differences should divide us." Uh, so clearly, Alicent in this moment, I think, feels emboldened to be like, "I've never been really your daughter. I've just been a pawn on the board for you to move around." Uh, and Otto doesn't say no to that. Otto's like, "Well, if that's true, then I made you Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. Isn't that a pretty good deal?"

Richard: Right. Yeah. And, you know, I think he's a little bit like, proud of her by the end of the scene, but also, like, not threatened by her. You know, what does he say at the very end? Like, "As you wish."

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard: And it's a little sarcastic and it's a little-

Josh Wigler: Yeah. "You look so much like your mother in certain lights."

Richard: Yes.

Josh Wigler: Like he'll say to her, which feels very patronizing, if not a little darker than patronizing.

Richard: Yeah, I think he's just like... Uh, I think he'll work to make sure she doesn't get killed, but I think he's also not that, like she has fulfilled her purpose.

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard: You know, now we're on to the next. Now, we're on to the boy. And I think that, like, a lot of this episode is, and why there was that crucial scene between Alicent and Rhean- Rhaenys is Alicent really finally realizing like, I didn't matter to them except as, you know, this vessel to birth children and-

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard: ... to marry this guy. That was it.

Josh Wigler: Right, whatever power she has is about to become irrelevant.

Richard: Right.

Josh Wigler: Um, and I think for, for Alicent getting to Aegon first, for her, was critical if she's to maintain any semblance of, uh, of control in this situation. And I think for Otto, it would have been preferable to get to Aegon, but I think he's like, that's not the end of the game for me that you got him first. Uh, like the stakes of that situation were very different for Alicent and, and Otto. And I think that you get that from Otto's energy in this room versus Alicent's. Um, I think Alicent leaves this room, having had a very exhausting conversation, a confront- a confrontational, uh, conversation with her father, uh, you know, the kind of thing where your blood is going to boil as you are facing down this person who literally gave you life and giving them the business, only for that person to kind of be like, Yeah, okay. You know, cute.

Richard: [laughs] Yeah.

Josh Wigler: It's horrible.

Richard: It is, yeah. It's so diminishing.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, yeah. Uh, so she walks away with that. And then we get to Alicent and Lord Larys. Uh, and we get into Quentin Tarantino's favorite scene of the night, uh, as-

Richard: [laughs] Right.

Josh Wigler: ... Alicent is going to, she's gonna, like, put her feet on the table and at first, it kind of felt like a power move to me, of like, Larys-

Richard: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... you can't quite do this. And-

Richard: I, yeah.

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard: I read it that way, but I also thought for a sec- well, because I, I started the scene being nervous when she poured herself a drink. I was like, "Oh, no, she's gonna get poisoned," 'cause like, I'm in paranoid mode for her.

Josh Wigler: Right, of course.

Richard: But then she takes her feet and then... She put her shoes off and puts her feet up. And I was like, Oh, this is kind of sweet. Like, she kind of feels comfortable. You know? Like, oh, that's nice. And then you very quickly are like, Oh, no, that's not what this is about [laughs].

Josh Wigler: No. Uh, and I do not recall any such material in Fire and Blood. Uh, I think that the, the historians did not, uh, chronicle Larys Strong, aka Larys clubfoot's foot fetish. Uh, but apparently he has one because he, uh, he's, he's masturbating to the site of Alicent's feet on the table. Um-

Richard: Yeah, and this is not the first time this has happened, clearly.

Josh Wigler: Game of, Game of Thrones is Game of Thrones-ing very hard in this moment, and I don't know. I don't know that I needed this.

Richard: No.

Josh Wigler: Uh, this feels... I don't know, I don't know what it's adding thematically. Honestly, I think like it's, it's pretty reductive, uh, of like, here's like the, the gross schemer. And also like the fact that there's, like, the foot fixation feels, I don't know, kind of wildly insensitive to people with, uh, with his condition.

Richard: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Um, I don't know. I didn't love it. I think this is, this is pretty easily my least favorite part of the episode. And it's not because of like squeamish and prude. You can throw a lot of really weird, wacky material my way and I'll, I'll enjoy it if it's thematic and if it serves a purpose. This kind of, for me, felt like, well, we need to have, like, one really gross thing in the episode. And so let's, let's give it here. And I, I think it's pretty diminishing, uh, of Larys as a character, and not, not so great for, uh, you know, uh, for the way that Alicent is being handled as a character either. I just didn't love it.

Richard: Yeah, no, I mean, I think you already have the slight, you know, diffi- difficulty of having a character with disability also being the sneaky villain, which is not, not saying that can't happen.

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard: But you have to treat that, you know, with texture, you know, and, and interestingly and, and thoughtfully. Um, I think they mostly done that, but then this scene, it's like, yeah, making the one-to-one comparison between his disability and his sexual interest. Like, that's not great. But also, I think that we've just gotten a couple of scenes where Alicent has realized she doesn't have power. Why do we need this extra kind of debasement? You know, it's like she has to do this thing, so this guy can sit there to what? Keep him in her favorite. Like you know, it-

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard: It just felt a little gratuitous, not for the sexual aspect but for the like, to kind of further pushing Alicent down. Like, we get it. We just had the scene that, that defined that, you know?

Josh Wigler: Yeah, I, I totally agree. And I, I think like that seems to be how I read the scene, as far as like, what's the purpose of it? It feels like Alicent's like, this is my way of keeping Larys close to me. And like, is there not just, like, a better way of finding Larys's kryptonite? You know, uh, like, this is his kryptonite is just a, a, a strange choice for me. And I, I think a bad choice, ultimately. Uh, I don't, I don't know how this turns into something interesting. I think it just is, you know, kind of in the pantheon of like, gratuitous Game of Thrones-ness.

Richard: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Uh, and I, I didn't need it, I thought this was... We were, we were in like very cerebral, interesting, philosophical territory, and then Larys, uh, does the business to the feet. And it's-

Richard: If they wanted, if they wanted to twist it some and have it be that Alicent likes this, and because we don't really know much about Alicent's like sexual life-

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard: ... that would be interesting. But the fact that she turns away and it's sort of this gross thing she has to endure, this Louis C.K. kind of thing.

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard: Like, like, I don't know. I just feel like this show has been better than original Game of Thrones with giving women agency while also still being like women are in a very precarious position in this world, um, which as they are in, in our world, uh, often. Uh, that like, I don't... Yeah, we didn't need this extra added sort of thing un- unless they were gonna do something more interesting with, with it, which they so far have not.

Josh Wigler: So we are going to, uh, go from that to, uh, you know, a bit of a montage of everybody's sort of waiting for the next day. Aegon has been secured, uh, unhappily. He does not like that he has been secured, he does not like that this is the position he is being thrust in. Uh, Aemond also does not like this. There was a scene earlier that we kind of yada yada through, but talked about lightly, where, where Aemond is gonna have this moment with Criston, where he's like, "If I was on the throne, this wouldn't be a problem. Uh, and maybe we wanna find Aegon in a bad situation so that we can just yada yada our way through Aegon as well." Uh, and it seems like Criston is like quasi interested in that, but also is still clinging to whatever like illusion of loyalty he has and honor that he has, um, that, that conversation existing that Aemond thinks that he's the one of the two of his brothers, uh, that is best suited to, to sit on the Iron Throne.

So on the eve of aegon's ascension, I think that Aemond is still having that daydreams of, uh, who should really be the ruler of this realm.

Richard: Yeah, and probably thinking through some different pathways to that, you know? Like, obviously, the best one is, wait it out with King Aegon, and maybe ma- strike against him subtly, or hope that he, I don't know it gets syphilis and dies or something.

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard: You know, and then you ascend, or dangling on the other side in the distance is, like, maybe I switch alliances somehow and, and somehow maneuver that. Um, which, you know, I'm, I'm sure that this character, as much as we understand this character, has not entirely ruled out.

Josh Wigler: No. Uh, so that's what's going on in the night before. Uh, and then really, uh, interestingly, on the eve of Aegon's ascension, is Eric Cargill being like "Enough, no, this is not gonna stand and I'm gonna do something about it." And he is going to break Rhaenys free from her, uh, from her, from her, you know, essentially from her prison. Uh, and say, "I'm not going to let this treachery stand, let's get out of here." And so they're going to wind and weave their way out of the city.

Uh, and into the next day, this is where we get this, um, this really fascinating series of scenes where the bells are ringing out, uh, signaling the death of Viserys, signaling this change in, um, in, uh, in leadership here in King's Landing. And now we're kind of rooted in Rhaenys's perspective of the people at the streets kind of in a panic. Uh, she gets separated from Eric, uh, and she is going to wind and weave her way towards the Dragonpit. Um, in, in considering this on the other side of seeing where all of this goes, Richard, I do think it's, it's really interesting that she starts off kind of as like a, a, a point of view of the people in the streets considering, like, she will not consider them at all when she just bursts free on Dragon back.

Richard: No. I think the most interesting part of this whole episode and I would, I'm really curious to hear what you think it was, was. What is that smile that she... Is it when she realizes oh, we're being herded toward where they keep the dragons. You know, 'cause she looks up kind of through the crowd and sees the sky in a building. Is that what, is was that what that smiles about? Where she's like, Ah, I'm being led toward sort of my, my, my way.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, I mean, I, I think a, a ship out of King's Landing would have been nice if that was the only option available to her. But if she is being literally corralled to the place where she knows that her dragon is parked, uh, that she's got the keys to that specific ride, that she is going to be able to make, uh, quite an entrance during the coronation, and certainly quite the exit. Um, so I think that there is a piece of that, but I think that there's also probably some degree to which, you know, she's kind of like an anti-Arya in this moment, I think, uh, or at least like a really interesting comparison to Arya, when you think about this episode in relation to, to Baelor, uh, of Game of Thrones, Season One. Where Arya is sort of our eyes from the perspective of the audience to the execution of her father, of Ned Stark, and she doesn't know what's going on, even if we kind of begin to process what is going on.

And in this case, I think Rhaenys, like, she knows what's going on. She is being like shepherded into the audience for this coronation. And unlike Arya, she can see every last bit of it for what it is. And unlike Arya, who would have loved nothing more than to be able to cross out some names on her list immediately in that moment, Rhaenys has the opportunity to do exactly that. And she can make the choice as to whether or not she's gonna cross any names out.

Richard: Yes, totally. I, I, I think, I'm, I'm also choosing to read the smile a little bit as an indication of something we've kind of, you know, in- in- int- intangibly talked about, is like that, that way out, the- these people stuck in this stressful, paranoid, cloistered life. Here's Rhaenys just in a crowd, looking at the sky, looking at the city, and for a second, she's kind of free. You know, she's so anonymous. Like she, she's able to slip away later in the crowd and, and go get on the dragon, and, and then join, you know, gets right back into the thick of things. But like-

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard: ... for a second there, it's like the end of Castaway where she could [laughs], she could go any which way. And I think, I don't know, I think the str- the smile is mostly because she realizes, ah, I've figured it out. But also, uh, she's kind of enjoying herself.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, a little bit. I think also like I can't believe this, like I think it's a little bit of like a, almost like an exasperated smile, like they're really doing it.

Richard: You're kidding me. Yeah, yeah, this is happening. Yeah.

Josh Wigler: You know, yeah. Exactly. And you're, you're doing it in the Dragonpit, you idiots. I think is definitely another piece of it. Um, Aegon and Alicent are on their way towards the coronation. Uh, she's gonna tell him, "Have the decency at least to look grateful. In an hour, you're going to be the king." And Aegon, uh, is going talking about how my father never wanted this for me. He could have changed his mind at any point, he never did. He didn't like me. Um, and Alicent is going to continue to repeat this line that she does seem to believe of, "He, he wanted you to take the throne. With his final breath, that's what he wanted." And she even presents him with the Valerian dagger, uh, and he says, "Do not toy with me, mother."

And I, I think to, to me, I would expect that Aegon understands that this dagger was very important to his father, was greatly associated with Viserys, uh, and, uh, the, the Targaryen dynasty. But I think it is interesting to me, Richard, that no one really is around to explain to him what it actually means. Uh, like none of that-

Richard: Right.

Josh Wigler: ... history, none of the culture around it exists on this side of the Targaryen family tree.

Richard: Right. And so when will he be clued into that? Because no one in his inner circle, or the people who were kind of pulling his strings, they're not privy to that, you know, that's on the other side.

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard: Um, and, you know, obviously we know it's gonna come to bear much, much later for, for this, this world. But for now, yeah, it's funny to see this hugely important, like, talisman reduced to just like, no, it's your dad's nice thing that he had. Now, now it's yours [laughs]. You know?

Josh Wigler: Yeah, yeah. Uh, this seems to be the thing that, um, that revs him up, uh, that kind of, uh, sobers him up and gets him ready for the moment. Uh, where we're kind of in his perspective, as the coronation is occurring, there's the big announcement, uh, of Viserys the peaceful is dead. Uh, by the way, like, we're, we're honoring like the death of the peaceful king, like we're already honoring him that way and like titling him as such. Feels like Otto being like, yeah, and the next king is gonna be like the warful, uh, [laughs].

Richard: Right. And, and it's a little-

Josh Wigler: We know where this is going.

Richard: I- it's like, you know, we won't speak ill of the dead. Like, he was kind of ineffectual this, but like now we get to reframe that in, in death as peaceful.

Josh Wigler: Right, yeah.

Richard: You know, like now-

Josh Wigler: Viserys the nothingburger doesn't quite have the same ring to it.

Richard: Right, exactly. Viserys the cut or whatever. I don't know.

Josh Wigler: Yes [laughs] right.

Richard: But, uh, I did, just going really quickly back to the carriage scene, I did like the way it ended, where he's like, "Do you love me?" And she calls him an imbecile.

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard: Um, and she, she doesn't answer the question. And so you go into this next scene being like, Alright, how does Alicent feel about this kid? Obviously, she knows he does terrible things, whatever, but she's still his mom. And I think you see an interesting shift as this process goes on. Uh, and as the crowd is kind of trying to figure out how to react to it, where, like, Alicent does, I think by the end, get towards something like pride.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, and I think that, I think that Aegon receives that as such.

Richard: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: You know, all of the people on stage bow their heads to him and all the people who are people that he either looked up to or feared or like, had to respect, but secretly loathed, all of them are bowing their heads to him. And I think that he's, you know, I don't know if he's taking this as like, I'm, like, I'm King shit now. And like, this is, this is me, and I earned this, or if it's, I have the crown, and they have to do this and that's a, that's a tool that I can use. But, but either way, I think sort of in, in the, in the same vein, as when Aemond was so exhilarated on the other side of claiming Vhagar, that energy is here with, with Aegon. I think that he is finally swept up and he has, uh, Aegon the Conqueror's crown, he has Aegon the Conqueror's sword, Black Fire. He, you know, feels very much a Targaryen King in this moment.

And I think it's, it's so interesting to me to see that transformation of this kid, who much like Jon Snow, "I don't want it," uh, suddenly has it. Now, maybe wants it-

Richard: Mm-hmm.

Josh Wigler: ... and immediately in that moment, is confronted with potential imminent dragon fire doom-

Richard: Right.

Josh Wigler: ... as Rhaenys who has escaped in the crowd, has gone depth, into the depths of the Dragonpit, uh, has her, has her dragon, um, Meleys, I believe is the name of her, her dragon, Meleys maybe. Um, she bursts forward with it, and has the opportunity to just incinerate these fools.

Richard: Yeah, and Alicent closes her eyes. And she's like, "Well, this is it." And there's a tiny part of you that's like, is she like finally, you know? [laughs] Like, like-

Josh Wigler: Totally, totally.

Richard: ... let's just avoid all this and just come on.

Josh Wigler: It's kind of like, oh, this is, this is a mercy.

Richard: Make, make it quick.

Josh Wigler: Just get it done. Yeah.

Richard: You know, like, Leanor did it, like, you know, okay, let's go for it. Um, but, you know, I think it's also funny with the Aegon and all, like I was thinking about, um, sometimes I do like, um, onstage Q&A's for like, post-screenings, or-

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard: ... anytime I have to do a public speaking thing, I get really nervous. And I like-

Josh Wigler: Sure.

Richard: The hours before, I'm like, "Why did I agree to do this? It's so stupid."

Josh Wigler: Oh, yeah, relatable [laughs].

Richard: And then the minute that mic turns on, and the lights are on, the theater kid in me from high school and college just comes roaring out [laughs].

Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm.

Richard: I'm just, like, I never wanna leave the stage. And I... You kind of see that with Aegon, where it's like, wait a second, this feels amazing [laughs] you know?

Josh Wigler: Yes.

Richard: All of this attention. And, um, I thought, and I think that's a really interesting, uh, and very credible characterly, you know, evolution that happens in a second. That then is, of course, yes, like, immediately challenged by this thing, where, uh, you know, it's almost all over. And then Rhaenys makes a really interesting decision that, I mean, we've kind of already talked about, but like, that is something that I kind of thought, okay, we're at the penultimate episode, penultimate episodes of this, these shows tend to be the big violent ones where something major happens, not always, but a lot of the time. And this show pulled its punch, which I thought was actually more interesting because I was expecting a bloodbath and, or a fire bath or whatever. And, uh, that's not what happened.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, I, I really, you know, I, I, I thought about this a lot with how the show handles Viserys's exit from the stage versus Ned Stark's exit from the stage in Game of Thrones as being sort of like, um, like a very different path towards the same inevitable outcome of your number one on the call sheet leaving prematurely. You know, coming into House the Dragon, we've seen so much Game of Thrones that's really expected that Paddy Considine is not gonna be on the show forever. And in fact, this show can't really become what it's supposed to become, this war of succession, if he's still around. So you know he's gonna, he's gonna live, uh, or you know, he's gonna die eventually, but you have no real sense that like, he's going to live as long as he did. You know, he lived a lot longer than I think a lot of the, the, non-book reading, prognosticators would have guessed. Uh, and his death ends up being, you know, this inevitability, but extended.

And I think, in this moment, the Game of Thrones trope has you, uh, ready to believe, okay, maybe Rhaenys is going to incinerate all of the Hightowers. We've been investing in the high towers, like, getting themselves into the position of power to, to claim the throne once Viserys is gone. But what happens if Rhaenys just tortures them all and walks on stage, picks up the crown and this is Rheanyra's new opponent. Um, you know, I think that there's a lot of like the, like, sort of like the Galaxy brain Game of Thrones thinking that's going on in that moment of watching this go down. And instead, it's this other choice of, no, we will resist the Game of Thrones trope of wiping out a family in a penultimate episode. And that will be interesting because that, this moment for this family, where they, uh, very easily could have just been in one fell swoop, completely wiped from the table. You got to imagine they're not gonna forget what this feels like. And you, you have to imagine that this really is going to crystallize for them, what they are actually up against, potentially.

Richard: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: And what they're gonna need to do in response to somebody who had so much power over us in this particular moment.

Richard: And yet now, we almost owe something to, you know?

Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm.

Richard: And I think that it's a shrewd thing on Rhaenys's part because she has not technically declared a side. I mean, she's declared that she's against the [laughs] the common folk who were in that building.

Josh Wigler: Yes.

Richard: But in terms of the people who matter, she's like, I didn't kill you.

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard: I was just leaving. You guys weren't letting me leave. I am an autonomous person. I decided to go when I wanted to go [laughs].

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard: You decided to have it in the parking garage. Uh, so I got my-

Josh Wigler: [laughs]

Richard: ... my whip and I left.

Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm.

Richard: Um, so she hasn't said... She didn't fly away yelling, I'm team Rhaenyra. She shouldn't do that.

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard: So I think, I think it's an interesting, I mean, obviously, she has more to align with Rhaenyra about because of, you know, blood and, and relatives and all that, but, but, um, you know, the grandkids and whatnot, but, uh, yeah, you know. Like, she hasn't declared a side yet, which I think was ultimately her strategy, and I think probably a good one.

Josh Wigler: So that's where we, where we leave it with this big sort of explosive moment that, uh, kills a bunch of NPCs, but none of the playable characters. Uh, so, uh, Rhaenys is on dragon back flying off to, to who knows where, and it leaves us on the doorstep of the season one finale. We did not see Rhaenyra Targaryen or her side of the family in this entire episode, completely withheld from us throughout, uh, The Green Council. Next week's episode, entitled The Black Queen. Uh, I think, uh, fair to say that we are going to get the answer, uh, to how Rhaenyra-

Richard: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: ... is gonna feel about all of this.

Richard: Is it better to be part of a Green Council or be the Black Queen? You know, that's-

Josh Wigler: I think, uh, yeah. Uh, I mean, I don't know. I, I was gonna say I'd rather just be one of the common folk, but, uh-

Richard: I wanna be the... I mean, hopefully she's, you know, everyone's unionized, but the brothel owners seem to be kind of, you know, she's like, I have a little... I have a, I have a thriving business and, uh-

Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm.

Richard: ... I can kind of talk Cersei to royalty because like, whatever [laughs] you know?

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard: She seems to be doing okay, as long as she treating her employees well. Um, but, uh, yeah.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, sometimes I really understand why the Sea Snake just keeps going back to the Stepstones, it's like get me out of this. You know?

Richard: Oh, fully. I, you know, I wanna, I wanna be like in a library in Old Town. That's a far away from all this.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Uh, yeah, I think that that's fair. I think that's fair. We've got some feedback from the Still Watching faithful here, Richard, to bring into the conversation. Um, now, uh, this came our way from, from Tim, uh, Tim Kay, who had written in, uh, and said much was made the value of Vhagar to the greens, but in a post-show featurette, it was frequently mentioned how as dragons age, they eventually get to a point where they are essentially too big to support their own bodies. So I wonder how much longer Vhagar will be in fighting shape and how much value she is to Aemond as he is still pretty young? I think Tim is sort of sizing up the battlefield here as the lines have clearly been drawn.

I do think maybe that speaks to why like Aemond's first move after Rhaenys leaves is to just go downstairs and rev up like the monster truck that is Vhagar Like she's in a Corvette, she's, you know, speeding off.

Richard: Right.

Josh Wigler: I don't think he's gonna really, even on the biggest dragon in the land, gonna be able to catch up to her so quick.

Richard: Right. It's the Mario Kart thing of I always choose small and fast cars-

Josh Wigler: Yes.

Richard: ... and but other people like the bigger slower ones, you know? So.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. I'm, I'm inclined to play as Wario whenever given the option.

Richard: See, okay. So my boyfriend is the same way, where I'm like give me Peach, give me Yoshi.

Josh Wigler: Mm-hmm.

Richard: I want, I want them the agility.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, I just like to go as much as wow-

Richard: [laughs] That's fair enough.

Josh Wigler: ... as much as I [inaudible 01:13:38] as much as I can, uh, as I'm playing, uh, Mario Kart. Uh, this came from Kristen, uh, who, uh, no surprise had a lot to say about Criston, uh, on the show. Uh, and Criston wondered, um, had, had some questions about, uh, the switch of sworn protector Ser Criston Cole from Rhaenyra to the queen. Just because he's all hurt, because the princess doesn't wanna run off with him. And he ultimately was going to take his own life, only to have the queen find him and stop him. How does his job just change from the princess to the queen? And how come no one said anything to explain it?

Um, well, all this is, you know, sort of just like hand waved away in that time jump, Richard, but did this episode give you any clarity as far as Criston Cole's, like, real authentic, feelings about, um, his place in this society, his place in this particular situation? Is this just a revenge kick against Rhaenyra for him? Or did you catch anything in terms of how he's feeling about Alicent after, after all of this? You have to imagine she played a humongous role in him not only getting to keep his job, but you know, potentially getting to keep his life after what happened at the wedding.

Richard: Well, I think there's some, some instructive stuff in this episode where he says to Aemond, when, when there at the brothel door, where he's like, "Don't talk about women like that," you know, kind of thing.

Josh Wigler: Right.

Richard: Um, I think Criston is, in his mind, trying to restore the honor that he besmudged by sleeping with Rhaenyra that one time. Um, and so I think that's part of it, but I think, really, Criston is emerging or has emerged as, uh, just a bad guy who like, you know, kind of punishes women for wh- what he th- or sort of puts women at a, at a sort of remove because of his sort of internal conflicts about women. And like, I, you know, and I think that he probably now thinks that he's in love with Alicent, to some degree, because he just, that's how his kind of mind thinks. He can't really see women as peers, they're sort of objects of either protection or lust or both, or whatever. And so yeah, I think he's just like a toxic man. That's what I think.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Yeah. Um, Criston wasn't a huge fan, uh, Criston the feedbacker, wasn't a huge fan of the actor change for Rhaenyra and Alicent. Uh, we got feedback that was similar from Maya as well. But this is from a few weeks back, I would be curious to know if Criston and Maya and anyone else who hasn't been feeling the actor change for Rhaenyra and for Alicent, to, the, the Emma D'Arcy and Olivia Cooke era, if they're feeling differently now. Obviously, nothing new from Emma D'Arcy in this episode, other than their, uh, strong advocation offline for Negronis. Um, but a really strong episode from Olivia Cooke once again, I thought.

Richard: Oh, incredible. Yeah, she's really great.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. I think, uh, this version of Alicent, uh, there's just a lot of layers here. A lot of layers. Uh, Christina had written in and said between Ned Stark, Oberyn Martell, and now Harwin Strong. Does anyone notice how good dads don't live long in Westeros? Notably, absent from that list, Richard, uh, would Be King Vicerys. Uh, I think this feedback sent in shortly before his death, or at least before HBO confirmed it with their trailer. Um, yeah, I don't know what this is. Do the bad dads tend to live relatively long lives?

Richard: I think dads in general are in trouble [laughs]. But-

Josh Wigler: Kind of the people in general are in real danger in this movie, yeah.

Richard: Yeah, people in general. Um, but, yeah, I mean, I think one of the sort of occasionally oppressive things about watching these two shows is that, like, you're just starved for any glimmer of like decency or warmth or, you know, kindness or whatever, you get it in little fits and starts, but then it's usually ruined, like, a scene later [laughs]. You know, I'm thinking about young Leanor and young Rhaenyra on the beach, and they're like, "Oh, that's nice." And they're like, "but that's not gonna last," you know.

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard: And I think that, yeah, any kind of like kind parenting that is reciprocated, like that's, that's not gonna be short-lived, just, 'cause that's not the world of the story.

Josh Wigler: Um, a couple more. This was from Bridget, who said, I know it's not part of the Game of Thrones universe playbook, uh, though I heard that it was a Benioff and Dan Weiss thing. But I think that flashbacks would have worked fine if we needed to cover several decades quickly in this first season. Uh, so I think Bridgette out here advocating for, for flashbacks. But I think it's interesting right now in like the week following Patty Constantine's officially e-, official exit from the series.

He's done a few interviews, Richard, where he's made it clear that even though he loved this role, it's his favorite role he's gotten to play, he wouldn't be particularly interested in a reprise of any, uh, kind. And I know that there's a lot of people, including myself, who would really love to see, um, Emily Carey and Milly Alcock back on the show at some point in time. Sounds like Paddy Considine wouldn't want to, uh, to join them in any kind of future flashback scene. I would be here for it, but I am also here for him living his best life. And if this is his best life, then stay away from the dragons.

Richard: Yeah, fair enough. I mean, I think that flashbacks, if, I, I think that they made, ultimately made the right choice by, by presenting it to us linearly, you know. I, I do actually, in hindsight, like that. Um, I think flashbacks could get a bit gimmicky or distracting if they were, because they would have to be used a lot, you know?

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard: Um, but going forward, if we did wanna see those younger actors, again, who were really great, I think there would be a moment, perhaps next season or something, of real poignancy, where you start the episode or whatever, you end the episode, or maybe bookend the episode, with a memory of a sweeter, nicer time between these two women, you know?

Josh Wigler: Yeah.

Richard: Um, so I think you could do that for an emotional button, but, um, I think in terms of trying to get us to know these characters, as we have, over the course of this season, I think they ultimately did choose the right approach, even though the time jumps have been at times a little, um, you know, jarring.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Um, this from Amanda, uh, also Angelica, a few people who had written in, uh, just to, to clear the record on why the Valeryons are able to ride dragons. It would be due to Rhaenys's Targaryen blood flowing through their veins. I thought this was relevant to bring up now as we are really, I was really excited for the moment that we would see Rhaenys on drag it back at some point in time. Uh, I think if anyone was really looking forward to that, this episode, very much delivered on what that might look like.

Richard: Mm-hmm. Yes.

Josh Wigler: Yeah. Uh, and then finally, Michelle gave a lot of love for the podcast, big fan of the podcast and she made a direct plea, uh, Richard, to get you on a Brant Steele podcast over on RHAP or post show recaps. And I cannot imagine you know what a Brant Steele is, Richard, but it is as you are, uh, reviewing your survivor fandom to me, uh, becoming a personal mission of mine, uh, to, to make Michelle's dreams come true. So we'll talk offline.

Richard: Okay. Yeah, I mean, to me to be perfectly honest, Brant Steele sounds like a particular kind of adult performer. But, um-

Josh Wigler: [laughs] You know, uh, there's a way of looking at it where, uh, [laughs] actually not be terribly far off.

Richard: Uh, but yes, I, I-

Josh Wigler: Uh, but I've appreciated, uh, yeah, I've appreciated the Still Watching podcasts kind of becoming, um, my Night's Watch of, uh, Survivor podcasting. Uh, took the black and here I am talking about Survivor still. Uh, so I think that's gonna do it. Unless, you've got anything else on House of the Dragon this week, Richard. Only one episode left is kind of wild to me.

Richard: Yeah. I, I mean, I know we've, we've gone long, but that's 'cause we, you know, I'm glad we got to those emails.

Josh Wigler: Big episode, yeah.

Richard: And please do still keep emailing us everyone. Um, I was saying to a friend the other day, who said it in kind, he said it in kind of a semi, like, you know, mock, like ashamed way. He was like, "I kind of love the show." And I, I think I, you know, agreed with him. I, I was a little bit skeptical at the beginning, but I'm really invested now. And I think that's not just because we've committed all this time to it, but also, just because I think they've done really good things. The performances have been great. The writing has been shrewd. And like, you know, we said about this episode, I'm, I'm genuinely surprised by it more and more.

Josh Wigler: Yeah, um, I think that we, you know, a lot of a, lot of the work to get us to the place that we're at, heading into Episode Nine, and now certainly heading out of it. Um, I, I think that, you know, the time jumpiness and sort of these, these sort of contrary arguments across the, the discourse of the season thus far of it's moving too fast and yet it's moving too slow. I think I'm in this place of I think that Goldilocks did. I think it was just right, and I do think that I am feeling pretty ready for what's coming next. But I feel especially prepared for it because of all the time that we've gotten to spend with Alicent, with Rhaenyra, with the people around them. And, um, I am in, in hindsight, uh, really grateful for that family dinner they had one week earlier.

Richard: Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Seems like it's gonna be a minute before, uh, we get another family dinner for the full assembled Targaryen, uh, family. Um, but we'll find out. We'll see what it looks like for Rhaenyra and her family next week in the season finale of House of the Dragon, the Black Queen coming one week from now. If you wanna get your feedback in for that episode, we would love to hear it, stillwatching pod@gmail.com. That's stillwatchingpod@gmail.com. Richard where can folks find you? Anything you want to plug going on here on Vanity Fair?

Richard: Uh, as ever Twitter @rilaws on vf.com. Also, we should mention a programming note, we do not, uh, have a screener for the last episode, so this Still Watching episode will be airing, uh, you know, sometime midday Monday, right?

Josh Wigler: Yeah, I think, uh, I think that's right. So we will be a little later on the podcast than, uh, normal. We, uh, uh, appreciate your patience as we watch this episode just like the rest of you. We are, uh, now in the common fo- uh, with the common folk in the Dragonpit, Richard, just waiting for a dragon to explode upon us.

Richard: [laughs] Yeah.

Josh Wigler: Uh, so, gosh, that was phrased horribly. Um, you can find me on Twitter @roundhoward. Uh, you can find me @roundhoward wherever you can find me on the internet, uh, including right here, vf.com, where I am recapping has the dragon, also writing some breakouts including some asterix from this episode. I have an article up on vf.com right now that's, uh, delineating some of the ways that this episode was really different from how, um, all of this went down in the book. I thought it was pretty fascinating some of the choices that they chose to make. So if that's interesting to you, check it out vf.com.

Of course huge thanks to the dragon that breaks through the Dragonpit every week and makes this podcast possible, the great Dave Gonzalez. We appreciate you for everything that, uh, is being done to make Still Watching happening. Uh, and Still Watching will continue to happen next week when we return for the season finale of House of the Dragon. Until then everybody, take care. Bye-bye.