Richard Lawson: Hello, and welcome to Still Watching, a weekly television podcast from Vanity Fair. I'm Richard Lawson. Chris Murphy: And I'm Chris Murphy. We are here to discuss the second episode of the HBO series, The White Lotus, Mike White's darkly funny series about class, death, and choking on a bug on the back of a Vespa. Richard Lawson: [laughs] Which would be me- Chris Murphy: [laughs] Richard Lawson: ... if I were- if I were ever foolish enough to get on a Vespa. Chris Murphy: Okay, I'd be on the front, you'd be on the back sort of- Richard Lawson: Full of bugs. Chris Murphy: ... dressed as Monica BD- Richard Lawson: Yep. Yep. Chris Murphy: ... inhaling bugs. Richard Lawson: Scratching my tongue. Chris Murphy: Mm, Mm. I see it. I see that for us. Richard Lawson: The episode we're talking about today is episode two, Italian Dream. Other than Vespa bugs, we have Portia and Albie going on a dinner together and having a kind of intense conversation- Chris Murphy: Yeah. Richard Lawson: ... about sex and gender, but they don't really realize that's the conversation they're having maybe. Chris Murphy: [laughs] Richard Lawson: Uh, we have poor Dominique falling deeper into the well of what might be sex addiction. We have possibly some sort of plot involving Tanya and Greg, which could lead us to more discussion about who dies. Chris Murphy: Yes. Richard Lawson: Uh, and then we have a conversation that you did with Beatrice Grannò. Chris Murphy: Yes, I talk to the actress that plays Mia about her big musical moment, which might involve a Haim sister. Richard Lawson: Ooh. Chris Murphy: It's kinda crazy. Richard Lawson: Gotta stay tuned for HAIM. So Chris, let's talk about the episode kind of in a broader sense before we get into the details of it. Um, for me, and maybe you disagree, I think the kind of thesis part of this episode is when Portia and Albie are at dinner. Chris Murphy: Mm-hmm. Richard Lawson: And, of course, Portia's keeping an eye on Tanya [laughs] in the corner h- having yet another meltdown. Um, and they're talking kinda guardedly at first about, like... I think they're trying to suss each other out, like, "Are you single? Like, what kind of people do you like?" Chris Murphy: Mm-hmm. Light flirting his happening. Richard Lawson: Yeah. And Portia, um, goes on this kind of [laughs] fraught monologue about, like, how she's sick of TikTok and Bumble- she wants someone who's ignorant of the discourse, and she needs to up her meds and- Chris Murphy: [laughs] Richard Lawson: ... she just wanna, like- has, like, wants to have adventure and- Chris Murphy: she wants a caveman. Richard Lawson: Right. Yes, and- Chris Murphy: She basically wants a caveman. Audio: I just wanna have fun. [laughs] Mm-hmm. I just wanna [laughs], I don't know, feel, like, fulfilled and have an adventure and, like, I'm sick of fucking TikTok and- and Bumble and just screens and apps and sitting there binging Netflix, and I just- I just wanna, like, live. [laughs] I just wanna live my life so badly. [laughs] I just feel like I just wanna meet someone who's, like, you know, totally ignorant of the discourse, you know? Right. Right. Like, like someone who lives in a cave. Like a caveman. Yeah, I- yeah, I would date a caveman at this point. [laughs] I mean, I think you could aim higher, honestly. I think you could do better than a caveman. Richard Lawson: And right there, I think, is where this relationship seems to turning, which is, like, there was a mutual attraction- but complex matters of, like, life in the 21st century, gender dynamics as they exist now- like, come to bear on this, and you ki- ... I mean, here's what I think. Chris Murphy: Yeah. Richard Lawson: I think Portia is like, "I hate that I want this kind of, like, asshole that Albie has just described-" yet, that promises more adventure than this nice kid next to- across from me does." Chris Murphy: He's trying to be sort of this perfect, you know, uh, Gen Z appropriate, you know, woman loving, consenting man- Richard Lawson: The opposite of his dad. Chris Murphy: ... the- the opposite of his dad. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Chris Murphy: Which it- I- as you said, it seems like it's not exactly what Portia wants. She wants a caveman. She wants somebody who's away from the discourse and Albie's whole personality is sort of shaped by the discourse in a weird way. Richard Lawson: [laughs] Right. Right. Chris Murphy: Um, and yet, uh, I- I know I'm still rooting for them. I mean, and- and then you see the kiss at the end, right? Richard Lawson: Yeah. Chris Murphy: You know, he, like, asks for consent to kiss her, which while very sweet in some ways, that's not, like, the sexiest way to have a first kiss, right? Richard Lawson: Right. Right. It's tricky. And I think that White is such a good writer because he's sharp and s- satirical about these dynamics, but sensitive to both sides as well. Chris Murphy: Mm-hmm. Richard Lawson: you know, he- he understands where Portia's coming from in terms of, like, everything feels so clinical and safe and sterile and, like- Chris Murphy: Yes. Richard Lawson: ... and- and so kind of preordained in a way. Like, you have to behave this set of- this set of ways in order for things to be- Chris Murphy: That's- that's what the culture is dictating right now. Richard Lawson: Right. And, you know, and you get that feeling that, like, where- where is still an adventure? Like, where is the kind of transgrecent- tr- transgressive-ness of the past? Chris Murphy: Mm-hmm. Richard Lawson: Um, and on the other side, you have Albie who is like ... Yeah, I mean, like what is he supposed to do? He's a young man in the world who's receiving all of these signals about- Chris Murphy: Yes. Richard Lawson: ... like, the problems of male behavior, toxic masculinity, and so he's doing what a conscientious person kind of does in that situation, which is, like, listen and learn. [laughs] Chris Murphy: Yeah, he's l- he's listening and learning- Richard Lawson: Yeah. Chris Murphy: ... and yet, it's completely nice guys finish last, which is sort of like- Richard Lawson: Yeah. Chris Murphy: I don't think that's necessarily the thesis that Mike White believes in. I don't think- as you said, I think he does a really great job to both sides. Like, he doesn't come down as, like, Portia's right to want a caveman or Albie's right to wanna be a sort of more evolved, you know, man in the world, but these two things are a tension with each other, sort of, you know, being politically correct, or, like culturally sensitive and- and engaging women like, you know, humans, in- individuals, with respect that they are. And also, a very real sexual carnal desire to just sort, of, like, you know, fuck. [laughs] For a lack of a better word- Richard Lawson: Yeah. Yeah. Chris Murphy: ... with somebody who isn't necessarily the most respectful or politically correct or ... You know? It was not checking all the boxes in that way. Richard Lawson: And where- where better to do the vulgar word you just said- Chris Murphy: [laughs] Sorry. Richard Lawson: ... in- in fucking Sicily at this beautiful hotel with this random cute guy you just met. And it's like, here's the moment where you fall into this sort of, like, roll in the hay kind of mindset. Chris Murphy: 'Cause- Richard Lawson: I mean, what is more of a fantasy than that? It made me think about the opening credits- Chris Murphy: Ah, okay. How so? Richard Lawson: ... which ... Um, start with these kind of, like- Chris Murphy: Pastoral- Richard Lawson: ... pastoral or whatever that's sorta supposed to be emulating- Chris Murphy: Yeah. Richard Lawson: ... and as the music that drop- that beat drops [laughs] Chris Murphy: [singing] Richard Lawson: Yeah [laughs]. Chris Murphy: As the beat drops [inaudible 00:06:18] Richard Lawson: ... then you start to see these more carnal- Chris Murphy: Yes. Richard Lawson: ... little scenes. A blowjob, a stabbing, something e- ... You know, a woman- a man ravaging a woman. Chris Murphy: Yeah. Richard Lawson: Like- Chris Murphy: It gets sexier, but also- Richard Lawson: Yeah. Chris Murphy: ... more sort of, uh, base and- Richard Lawson: Yeah. Chris Murphy: ... fully carnal. Richard Lawson: Which seems to be kinda what this season thus far is about- Chris Murphy: Mm-hmm. Richard Lawson: ... you know? Um, I think we also, if we wanna switch gears over to, uh, Ethan and Harper, ooh. We see that, a similar sort of conversation unfolding. So what- what, for you, really stuck out with them this week? Chris Murphy: I mean, what stuck out ... I'm- I'm thinking about Ethan and his sort of m- midday, mid-morning [laughs] ... Richard Lawson: Right, right. Post exercise, um- Chris Murphy: ... jerk off session. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Chris Murphy: Um, but that did really stick out, um, in terms of explaining their relationship. They also have some trouble connecting, right? The great thing about Harper and the great thing about Aubrey Plaza as an actress, which I think she's doing such great work, is that she's never really exactly says w- what she means. Like she's very- she's very honest and very forthcoming. But you can always, like, re- read her subtext so well and it's sort of her disappoint that, you know, instead of, you know ... And she actually does say this, that Ethan would rather, you know, pull up internet computer porn rather than, like, wait for her to have sex. That sort of prickliness, and yet her inability to sort of, like, be the type of woman who would, like, have sex with him. Like, I don't believe [laughs] that- Richard Lawson: Right, right. Chris Murphy: ... you know, had she been there and he came back, I could see her being like, "Ew, get away from me. Go shower," you know? Richard Lawson: Right. Chris Murphy: It's that sort of, like, those competing impulses of being what ... She wants to be the type of woman, maybe a little bit, like Daphne, who she does sort of disparage, but, like, who's like free and easy and, like, can just have morning sex and whatnot. But she's not that type of woman. Richard Lawson: No. No. Chris Murphy: And that's such a great sort of, um, dichotomy there. Richard Lawson: Y- you know, we have these multiple w- with Daphne and Cameron, where Harper just can't help herself. Chris Murphy: She can't. Richard Lawson: And says, "I'm not materialistic," or, you know, ha- having a kid, bringing a child into this world, like ... Basically insulting- Chris Murphy: Yeah. Richard Lawson: ... her, you know, her- her companions' lives [laughs] essentially. Chris Murphy: Yeah, essentially to their face, but like in a way- Richard Lawson: Right. Chris Murphy: ... without sort of directly being like, "I think less of you." Richard Lawson: And catching herself. Chris Murphy: Yes, and being like- Richard Lawson: You know? Chris Murphy: ... a- a- is aware of what she's doing and, like, is trying to fight that impulse but, like, can't. I think Harper's sort of disdain for this sort of ... for Cameron and Daphne, um, and this couple that just seems to, you know, as she says, seems to be not truthful, seems to be lying about how, you know, easy, breezy their relationship like ... or putting up a front or putting up a façade, right? I do think that her disdain comes from a very real and sort of normal place of being, like, "These people that have everything that, like, I don't. They're everything that I'm not," in a way, and like, "I have to poke holes in that-" Richard Lawson: Yeah. Chris Murphy: " ... to sort of justify the way that I am in the world." Richard Lawson: Right. Chris Murphy: "And the way that I exist in the world." So it's hard to s- [laughs] to say that Cameron's not an asshole when we see him screaming at employees for- Richard Lawson: Right. Chris Murphy: ... you know, for sending his bags home and then him hitting on Harper- the middle of the ocean. I mean, that was ridiculous. I don't trust Ca- ... I think Cameron and Harper ... What did you think about, uh, him sort of grabbing her leg in the middle of the ocean and sorta swimming at ... Like, that was- Richard Lawson: Yeah. Chris Murphy: ... a little ... Richard Lawson: Well, we still don't know why Cameron and, um, Daphne invited these people on the trip. We assume, as Harper does, that it has something to do with this new money- Chris Murphy: Mm-hmm. Richard Lawson: ... um, and therefore we could maybe extrapolate a little bit further that Cameron, as much as he keeps shit talking Harper behind her back, like, he can't alienate this newly very rich guy [inaudible 00:09:45] he can't alienate his wife, you know? Chris Murphy: Absolutely. Yeah. Richard Lawson: You know? So maybe the- ... I- I think that maybe Cameron has no idea how to interact with women that isn't either disdain or that. Chris Murphy: Yes [laughs]. Richard Lawson: Or- or hitting on her. Chris Murphy: Full on horniness [laughs]. Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah. You know, and I think ... And the funny thing about that is, like ... And I think this kind of nicely ties into the Portia stuff that we just talked about, is that scene at the end when, uh, Cameron and Daphne are in their room and she says the thing about, "I think that sometimes wom- women cut their husbands' balls off-" Chris Murphy: Mm. Richard Lawson: " ... and then, or don't find them sexy anymore and don't understand why." And you're like ... And that is s-, I think, m- maybe something of what Portia is sort of starting to wrap her head around- Chris Murphy: Yeah. Richard Lawson: ... this idea of, like, how much do you kinda beta your ... [laughs] whatever. Chris Murphy: Yeah, I mean ... Richard Lawson: Um, but- but clearly, that communicates to me that Daphne ... What- what does the cutting the balls off imply? Like, or what does having the balls still intact imply? It's, like, "Go get it," like- Chris Murphy: [laughs] Richard Lawson: ... that kind of aggression, that male aggression. Chris Murphy: Yeah. Richard Lawson: Which, like, hopefully is not physical, but, like, certainly in pursuit of money or business- Chris Murphy: Yes. Richard Lawson: ... or whatever. So I kind of wonder, like, what does Daphne know about the reason for this trip, you know? Chris Murphy: is- Richard Lawson: ... is she just along for the ride, or d- is she- are they kind of like a, you know, m- m- Bonnie and Clyde [laughs] sort of- Chris Murphy: Yeah. Richard Lawson: ... corporate raider types who are just like ... She's like, "I'll play my part, you play yours, and we're gonna get this deal done." Chris Murphy: But, ultimately now, Harper and Ethan are, you know, in their- in the money ranking or above that. Richard Lawson: But she thinks- Chris Murphy: That m- Richard Lawson: But she thinks ... But Harper thinks, "We're larping as rich people." Chris Murphy: Yes. Richard Lawson: You know, so that's ... Tho- those are two marriages that seem to be, um, at least steady in their dysfunction, let's say. Chris Murphy: Yes. Richard Lawson: Then we have Tanya and Greg. Th- I ... My sensor for, like, Jennifer Coolidge, Coolidge-ing it up a little too much, or Mike White kinda overriding Tanya is pretty s- is pretty sensitive, you know? Chris Murphy: Yeah. Richard Lawson: And I ha- ... Uh, it pinged a little bit in this episode. Audio: Aw. [singing] God. This is such a beautiful view. I wonder if anyone's ever jumped from here? Richard Lawson: How did it- how did it land for you? Chris Murphy: That is like a perfect sort of calibrated Jennifer Coolidge. To me, in that, it's just sort of, "Oh." I'm like, "Oh, I'm so happy Tanya's here." Richard Lawson: Yeah. Chris Murphy: But then I felt, until we got to her big dinner scene with Greg, I was a little bit like, "Okay, we're spending a lotta time on this Vespa. We're doing a lot ..." You know, "The Monica VD thing, the Instagram pictures ..." Richard Lawson: And- and Valentina's, like, calling her Peppa the Pig, and you're like- Chris Murphy: That was also unbelievable [laughs]. Richard Lawson: ... let's ... I get that Valentina's supposed to be blunt, but, like, who- ha- who are we laughing at now and how are we laughing at them? That- Chris Murphy: Yes. Richard Lawson: ... that's my sort of, always the eternal question with this character and- Chris Murphy: Mm-hmm. Richard Lawson: ... this performance. But also, the- the- h- ... I'm glad you brought up the thing of, like, "I wonder if anyone's jumped?" That sudden jolt into darkness ... Chris Murphy: Yeah. Richard Lawson: Do you get Kathy Hilton in there at all? Chris Murphy: [laughs] Do I ever. It's just- Richard Lawson: Yeah. Chris Murphy: ... always simmering underneath the surface- Richard Lawson: Yeah. Chris Murphy: ... for- for these- Richard Lawson: Yeah. Chris Murphy: ... women- Richard Lawson: Yeah. Chris Murphy: ... that have so much privilege. And we actually learn in this episode that Tanya's worth half a billion dollars. She's got- Richard Lawson: Yeah, a lotta money. Chris Murphy: ... a lot of money, even more money than I think- Richard Lawson: From a shipping heir. Like, she's a shipping heir, which feels s- s- sort of old world, almost, like- Chris Murphy: Old world. Richard Lawson: ... like old-fashioned, yeah. Chris Murphy: Has a weird relationship with her deceased father- Richard Lawson: Yeah. Chris Murphy: ... who also- who actually, it's more Sutton if anything, 'cause her- Richard Lawson: Oh, yeah. Chris Murphy: [inaudible 00:12:42] the father. Richard Lawson: Yeah. We're talking Real Housewives, by the way, guys. Chris Murphy: [laughs] Richard Lawson: Sorry. Yeah. Chris Murphy: And there's a lotta overlap, though- Richard Lawson: Yes, yes. Chris Murphy: ... because they do, um, group trips and it's actually [inaudible 00:12:47] Richard Lawson: And I'm sure Mike White wants to throw in- Chris Murphy: Oh, I'm absolutely- Richard Lawson: Yeah. Chris Murphy: ... sure. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Chris Murphy: And I feel like Tanya would fit right in with them. And I will say, I do ... I also have, I think, a more sensitive, um, Jennifer Coolidge ... Maybe not as sensitive as yours, but Jennifer Coolidge, like, sort of zany- sensor, in terms of, like, what- what is actually doing here? And I do- I did really love and appreciate her sort of meltdown at dinner with John- Richard Lawson: Yeah. Chris Murphy: ... and her being ... 'Cause we think that she's sort of all out here, right, that she's sort of, like, up in the w-, you know, sort of crazy, but she- she also can sense that he doesn't like her. She says, "You don't like me." Richard Lawson: Right. Chris Murphy: "You- you hate me." Richard Lawson: Well, she says, "You may hate me." Chris Murphy: Which is sort of hysterical, but- Richard Lawson: And he's like, "No, I don't." It's like, "You're ..." That's a strong word. You- you should push back- Chris Murphy: [laughs] Richard Lawson: ... against that word a little bit more- Chris Murphy: Yeah. Richard Lawson: ... forcefully than, "No, I don't." Chris Murphy: Yeah, I- Richard Lawson: I have questions about Greg. So we open, uh ... The- the ... I think it's their first scene in this episode ... Yes, it is, because they've- Chris Murphy: Mm-hmm. Richard Lawson: ... just woken up- Chris Murphy: Yeah. Richard Lawson: ... and Greg is sitting in bed, kinda staring blankly at the wall, looking trouble. Chris Murphy: Mm-hmm. Richard Lawson: Right? And so, immediately you're like, "Okay, w- what's he up to? Some- something's happening." Chris Murphy: Yeah. Richard Lawson: You know, at dinner he's like, "Well, I wanted you to have a perfect day before I broke the bad news," which I- I ... That's a convention of movies and TV that I never really get, like- Chris Murphy: R- right. Whenever it happens- Richard Lawson: [inaudible 00:13:56] don't give them the whole day and then- Chris Murphy: [laughs] Richard Lawson: ... rip the rug out from under them. Chris Murphy: Yeah, it's only gonna make it worse. Richard Lawson: And so then I'm thinking, "Oh, that's what Greg was worried about in the morning. That's why he was sitting in bed feeling sad, 'cause he k-," or bad or worried, or whatever he was feeling, "because he got this call from work and was like, 'Shit, I have to figure out a way to ..." kind of break her heart. Chris Murphy: Yeah, but actually ... Richard Lawson: And then, at the end, at the very end of the episode, Tanya wakes up, pads out to the bathroom or whatever, and Greg- Chris Murphy: Mm-hmm. Richard Lawson: ... is on the phone with someone, kind of disparaging her and then saying, "I love you." Chris Murphy: "I love you." Richard Lawson: I think that White is a wilier, tricksier writer than to be like, ep- end of episode two, "Greg's a fraud." Chris Murphy: Yeah. Richard Lawson: Like I- I- I- I would have to imagine there's more to be developed with that- Chris Murphy: Yes. Richard Lawson: ... um, because, uh, it- that would seem too soon for that kind of big turn. Chris Murphy: I- I do think ... And you said this last week, that while we're definitely supposed to be laughing sort of with or maybe at Tanya, sort of, it's sort of confusing. You can feel that, like, Mike White really does love this- Richard Lawson: Oh yeah. Chris Murphy: [inaudible 00:14:56] person really love- Richard Lawson: Yeah. Chris Murphy: ... and does love this character, and that we are supposed to have some sympathy. So, like, you know, seeing, you know, watching Tanya experience that moment or not experience that moment ... We'll see if she does ... Um, but knowing that he's probably, you know, got a, you know, either a second family or a lover or something like that, I felt a huge pang of just, like, "Ugh, aw." Like, "Aw, she doesn't deserve this." Richard Lawson: Well, and it just reinforces why she's so weird. Chris Murphy: Yeah. Richard Lawson: She's so weird- Chris Murphy: [laughs] Richard Lawson: ... because she doesn't know how to love people. She doesn't know how to trust people. Chris Murphy: She doesn't know how to be alone. Richard Lawson: She ... Yeah. And she is gonna ... She's alone all the time, even when she's with people. Chris Murphy: Yeah. Richard Lawson: 'Cause she doesn't know what they're there for. You know, th- they're either an employee or a husband that they've kind of ... I mean, she ... The- the whole thing with the prenup and he's like ... And what he's saying kinda makes sense. He's like, "I have to keep my job because if we get divorced, what I'm- w- I'm- I'm ..." You know, he's- Chris Murphy: Mm-hmm. Richard Lawson: ... an older guy. Like, "What am I gonna do without a job?" Chris Murphy: "Where am I gonna be? Where will I be?" Richard Lawson: Yeah. And that makes sense to me, you know? Chris Murphy: 100% Richard Lawson: But I don't know. I think you're right about, like, Mike White, like ... He has compassion for Tanya and- and yes, he's gonna ... bad things are gonna happen to her, I have no doubt. Chris Murphy: [laughs] Richard Lawson: Bad things are gonna happen to all these people- Chris Murphy: Oh, yes. Richard Lawson: ... I- I'm guessing. But, like, how bad is- is really the question. Chris Murphy: It's churning downwards for her, for sure. Richard Lawson: Well, speaking of trending- Chris Murphy: [laughs] Richard Lawson: ... I kind of feel like Mia and Lucia are trending up. Chris Murphy: Oh my god, they are- they won. If there's a- if there was a ranking of this week- Richard Lawson: [laughs] Yeah. Chris Murphy: ... Mia and Lucia won the week. They are absolutely sitting pretty. They are s- Richard Lawson: They've got keys to hotel rooms [laughs]. Chris Murphy: They are spending a rich man's money- Richard Lawson: Yep. Chris Murphy: ... without any sort of, you know, worry in the world. I ... And you know what I did? I got up and cheered. I clapped. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Chris Murphy: I said, "Yes. You girls, you spend that money. You- you earned this. You deserve this." Richard Lawson: Yeah. Chris Murphy: It was actually really, like, empowering for me to see Mia and Lucia, um, spending Dominic's money. Richard Lawson: So you get this scene with Lucia where, you know, she's clearly ambitious. She wants m- she wants not just to have a boyfriend for the week, she wants to get rich- Chris Murphy: Yeah. Richard Lawson: ... and autonomous and all that. Chris Murphy: Mm-hmm. Richard Lawson: And she's looking in the store window and she's like, "The first thing I'm gonna do [laughs] is fire that bitch and-" Chris Murphy: Yeah [laughs]. Richard Lawson: You know, so clearly ... Okay, here are the gears of Lucia's ambition turning. Chris Murphy: Yes. Richard Lawson: But we also see, with Mia, that, like, she's not just this sort of meek sidekick. Chris Murphy: Yeah, she's not a wallflower. Richard Lawson: She- she has ambitions of her own that she realizes in- in a very small way in this episode, which is kinda cool. Chris Murphy: In an amazing way. And I- I guess this is an amazing time to say that, um, Mia ... I love actresses, and the only thing that I love more than an actress is a singing actress. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Chris Murphy: It's my favorite thing in the world. And Mia gets this wonderful song. She seems sort of ironically The Best Things In Life Are Free. You know, you spend the whole episode with her and Lucia spending money and they're drinking Aperol spritzes and they're, you know, living their sort of Capitalists fantasy, and then she sings this gorgeous jazz standard- Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm. Chris Murphy: ... about how it's actually all about the moon and the stars- Richard Lawson: Right. Chris Murphy: ... and that's all that we need. But it's actually ... It's not true [laughs]. Richard Lawson: Yeah, I mean, they're really interesting characters in the way that they are kind of being played, you know, as this sort of ... I mean, we mentioned Rosencrantz and Guildenstern last week, but, like- Chris Murphy: Mm-hmm. Richard Lawson: ... they're- they're sort of mischief makers. They're the ... Th- they're kind of running around, you know. They've got Dominic all- Chris Murphy: Yeah. Richard Lawson: ... in his head about whatever. And- Chris Murphy: But they're meeting other people. They're sort of- Richard Lawson: Yeah. Chris Murphy: ... connecting everybody, in a way. It's ... That's beginning with, you know, the piano player- Richard Lawson: Yeah. Chris Murphy: ... and Lucia sees Ethan- Richard Lawson: Right, yep. Chris Murphy: ... the morning after. Richard Lawson: Valentina is clearly annoyed with them. Chris Murphy: That was a great scene. Richard Lawson: So they're- they're mischievous, but they're also, I think, you know ... And maybe I'm projecting just because we've seen the last season and we know Armond and some of the other hotel staff were sort of the moral conscience of the show, of that season. But, like, Mia and Lucia are, of anyone on the series, or this season, like, the people you want to root for. Chris Murphy: Yes. They are- Richard Lawson: You know? Chris Murphy: ... 100 ... They are ... I mean, i- it's an ensemble series, but right now, my protagonist, my main girl is, are Mia and Lucia. Richard Lawson: Yeah. With Dominic, the way that he's look- ... I mean, I don't mean to dehumanize Lucia, but, like, the way he's looking at her like she's a bottle of whisky, it's, like, "Oh, are y- ... You're sex addict." Chris Murphy: Yeah. "You have a problem." Richard Lawson: Yeah. Chris Murphy: "You- you have a literal sort of compulsion-" Richard Lawson: Yeah. And we see- Chris Murphy: " ... towards sex." Richard Lawson: ... when he has the girls over, you know, w- where he swore he wouldn't do it again- Chris Murphy: Yes. Richard Lawson: ... and then he has not one, but two over- Chris Murphy: Exactly. And it was sort of an offer he couldn't refuse [laughs]. Richard Lawson: And it's this sort of bacchanal where it's like his son is, like, a room away or something- Chris Murphy: Yeah. Richard Lawson: ... like two rooms away. Um, that's compulsion. Chris Murphy: Yes. Richard Lawson: And so, you do sort of ... Again, it's ki- kind of, you know, interesting it goes back to Albie, like these men, or these people, caught in this sort of flux of, like, cultural shifts and also just personal issues and whatever- Chris Murphy: Mm-hmm. Richard Lawson: ... where it's like Dominic wants, seems to want to get better because that's, like, the societally appropriate thing- Chris Murphy: Yeah. Richard Lawson: But it's like, "You maybe also need to get better because you have a problem." Chris Murphy: Because you have a problem, right? Richard Lawson: Yeah. Chris Murphy: And it's not just to save your family and not just because your wife and your daughter aren't, you know, on vacation with you- Richard Lawson: Right. Chris Murphy: ... because of the way that you're- you are acting and sort of, you know, you know, parading through society. Richard Lawson: So speaking of the Di Grassos and Lucia and Mia, um, a listener emailed us at stillwatchingpod@gmail.com. Chris Murphy: Yep, which you can do too. Richard Lawson: Please do. Uh, the listener's name is Maddie. And she writes, uh, "One theory I ha- ... One theory I have after the first episode is that Lucia could somehow be related to the Di Grassos." Chris Murphy: Ooh. Richard Lawson: "They're in town because their family's ancestral roots are nearby. So that could be a possibility, making the Dominic's choi- making Dominic's choice to sleep with her a lot murkier. Uh, as for how related they are, of course, would be hard to guess, but obviously the closer they are, the, uh, the more difficult the situation is." That's [inaudible 00:20:18] Chris Murphy: Yeah, I didn't know this was The House of the Dragon- Richard Lawson: Yeah. Chris Murphy: ... [laughs] but ... Richard Lawson: So it's possible. You know, Sicily's not that big. Chris Murphy: It's not that big, but that would be ... I mean ... And we don't know. Her name could be Lucia Di Grasso for all we know. [laughs] We don't know. Richard Lawson: Right, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um- Chris Murphy: But [inaudible 00:20:33] has already transpired in what looks like ... 'Cause, you know, Lucia's sorta spent the night the first, at- at the end of the first episode and it seems like, uh, things were sort of going in that direction at the end of the second episode. That would be ... Uh, you know, we'd be heading into incest territory, which is something at HBO we do. That's something that happens in, on these HBO shows. Um, I don't ... To me, that feels a little farfetched because I don't know if that's necessarily the story that Mike White is ... I don't know how ... if that's sorta in line with my overall theory of what this- Richard Lawson: Right. Chris Murphy: ... season is about. Richard Lawson: He's not so big on, like, conspiracy theory, whatever. There's g- ... There are gonna be twists because- Chris Murphy: Yes. Richard Lawson: ... we know that at least one person, or several people, are dead. Chris Murphy: Yeah. Richard Lawson: But, like, I don't think a dragon's gonna burst out like that or anything. Chris Murphy: [laughs] Richard Lawson: You know? Chris Murphy: Yeah. Ex-, yeah. Richard Lawson: But I appreciate the theory, Maddie and I ... I mean, it could be true. I think- I think something that we should be mindful of going forward, um, is as we rewatch episode two [inaudible 00:21:26] Chris Murphy: Mm-hmm. Richard Lawson: ... um, there is a possibly that White is dropping little clues here. Chris Murphy: Yes. Richard Lawson: And so this family trip to the ancestral homeland, like, maybe that's just there for sort of background color on this family- Chris Murphy: Yeah. Richard Lawson: ... or maybe it's there for a reason. So I don't think we should, like- Chris Murphy: No, we shouldn't dismiss it- Richard Lawson: ... dismiss- Chris Murphy: ... and it could very well- Richard Lawson: Yeah. Chris Murphy: It's, honestly ... I mean, I'm shocked my brain didn't go there myself- Richard Lawson: Yeah. Chris Murphy: ... honestly. I didn't consider that. But that was a good theory. Richard Lawson: Yeah, thanks, Maddie. And keep the theories coming. Chris Murphy: Hmm. Richard Lawson: Still watching? We'll be back in just a moment. So Chris, uh, now we're gonna hear your interview with Beatrice Grannò, who plays Mia on the show. Uh, anything small we should know before we listen to this conversation? Chris Murphy: Yeah, she was absolutely lovely and we talked a lot about her big musical moment at the end of the episode. I am so delighted to be talking to you and talking with the stars of White Lotus season two. Beatrice Grannò. Thank you so much for joining me, Beatrice. Beatrice Grannò: Hi. I'm good. I'm delighted to speak to you. Wow. So were you familiar with the series, the White Lotus, before you joined season two? So did you watch season one, did you- Beatrice Grannò: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like- [inaudible 00:22:42] Mike's work? Beatrice Grannò: Like the series- the series was really famous. It wasn't, uh, like really famous in Italy. Uh, the- Mm-hmm. Beatrice Grannò: ... only people that watched it were people in the, you know, the industry, because of course- Mm-hmm. Beatrice Grannò: ... they knew about it. Uh, but when I got the audition I watched it again and I really loved the series. I remember, when I was watching it, I was like, "I can't watch this, like, because it's just so good." Mm-hmm Beatrice Grannò: Like, "I just [inaudible 00:23:08] be in this project." It's just gonna break my heart. [laughs] Beatrice Grannò: So I was like, "I can't believe in this. I can't, because it's so good." And- and- and love the way Mike White's, uh, writes and the way, like the way he sees things. It's very similar to my taste. I love this. Mm-hmm. Beatrice Grannò: I love tragic comedy and, like, this very beautiful moment alternates with, like, awkwardness and, like, tragic situations. And it just ... I mean, I grew up with this. When I did drama school in London, that was my- Yeah. Beatrice Grannò: ... roles. I have a theater company in London as well. We do comedy, so yeah. Oh wow. What's your theater company called? Beatrice Grannò: Uh, it's called Superglue Assembly Line. Ooh, I love that [laughs]. Beatrice Grannò: [inaudible 00:23:49] but our shows are en- ensemble shows- Mm-hmm. Beatrice Grannò: ... and we, like, related to one another, so we're all, like, stuck together. And also, we always talk about, you know, everything that happens between taking a decision and not taking it, when you're, like, stuck into something and you can't- Yeah. Beatrice Grannò: ... really do it. Like superglue. Yeah. That's such a ... I mean, that's so great. It actually really dovetails really nicely into your character, Mia, who you play on White Lotus, who sort of is ... Eh, sort of stuck between decisions, deciding whether she's gonna- Beatrice Grannò: Right. ... join her friend, Lucia, you know, and entertain certain guests at the hotel and also, you know, is an aspiring singer. So I'd love to hear, um, you talk a little bit about, um, like, diving into Mia and sort of ... How much agency do you feel that she has in her life? Is she just sorta along for the ride with Lucia, or is she sort of, you know, in control? Beatrice Grannò: She doesn't really know what she wants, like she loves to be ... She's a dreamer at first, but then she changes her mind and she says, "I don't wanna do this." But then, s-, you know, she change ... She constantly, like, transforms into something, and- Mm-hmm. Beatrice Grannò: I mean, it was great to play a character like that because I've always dreamed of playing, you know, a musician. And I- I've been playing the piano and singing for a long time, so- Mm-hmm. Beatrice Grannò: ... for me, uh, the merging these two things together was so exciting. Um, yeah, and- and I love- I love, you know, you moment in s- in s- episode two where- Mm-hmm. Beatrice Grannò: [inaudible 00:25:08] play the piano because I think it's the first time they actually see some connection between me, what I love, and also with Lucia, or like in that moment we support each other. And there's so much sweetness. And also, the so- the- the song I sing, it's, um- Yeah, The Best Things In- Beatrice Grannò: ... The Best Things In Life- Yeah. Beatrice Grannò: Which [inaudible 00:25:27] The Crosby Jazz standard. Beatrice Grannò: Yeah, I love that song. And have you heard the Sam Cooke version? Yes, and the Sam Cooke version, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Beatrice Grannò: He's the best. You should- you should- [laughs] Beatrice Grannò: It's so beautiful. Um- Oh my goodness, I ... Yeah, I know. I definitely wanna ask you about that, but I wanna save that for the end, because I do wanna know a little bit about- Beatrice Grannò: Yeah. ... your- your relationship with Lucia, sort of, you know, uh, you, you know, you spend all this time with sort of your best friend, Lucia, who's played by Simona Tabasco. Um- Beatrice Grannò: Simona. Yes. And I would love to know sort of, uh, did you create like a backstory for how Mia and Lucia sort of became friends or how they sort of, you know, got sort of, became sort of besties, if you will? Beatrice Grannò: Well, um, I mean, I don't ... I'm not really, like ... That I don't always create backstories- Mm-hmm. Beatrice Grannò: ... especially in this project that was, uh, sort of a comedy and, like, we just played with it. The thing is, like, me and Simona, we're, like ... We've been friends for, like, in real life, 10 years, I think- Oh wow. Beatrice Grannò: ... years, because we auditioned a long ... We met at- at drama school, long time ago. Then she- [laughs] Beatrice Grannò: ... went. I didn't. I- Oh wow. Ooh, that's- that's a little [inaudible 00:26:36] [laughs]. Beatrice Grannò: Then I went to London, 'cause Italy didn't want me. So I went- I went somewhere else. And it was crazy. That's crazy of them, but ... Beatrice Grannò: [laughs] I went to London and I- I- I trained there. And then, when I got back, I got this job and it's, like, an Italian series, that it's really famous. It's called, um- Mm-hmm. Beatrice Grannò: It's like, uh, a doctor show. And she was in the series. So it's like, "Simona, I met you again." And things like- [laughs] Beatrice Grannò: ... yeah. And then we became friends, working together. And then we did the self tape together as well, for White- Oh. Beatrice Grannò: ... Lotus. And- Oh, together? You did that ... You filmed your audition together? Beatrice Grannò: It was crazy. Yeah, because she- That's crazy. Beatrice Grannò: Yeah, she called me and she said, uh, "Please, I need help." Like, "You speak English very well, so I need help with this self tape." And I read it and I was like, "I mean, I- I auditioned for this too. Like, I'm playing Mia and you're playing Lucia." She goes, "That's crazy." So we did that together. We had so much fun. And we kept, like, thinking about it, like, "Can you imagine if this happens? Can you imagine? Can you imagine?" But we always, like, said, "Can you imagine all this? Let's stop- let's stop thinking about this. This is, like, too beautiful." And- Oh my god. Beatrice Grannò: But then we got in together and then I think that that experience with White Lotus really made us, like brought us closer. Like we became really close friends, and then we use that a lot. We use- H- Beatrice Grannò: ... that a lot mostly because we work together and this experience, like two Italian girls, like supporting each other, and that was Lucia and Mia, you know? I love what you just said about you and, um, Lucia, you know, "Me and Lucia," being these outsiders, right, in this cast that's full of Americans, and you and Simona are, you know, both outsiders in this cast of Americans, you know, and a lotta sort of, like, very famous American actors. Beatrice Grannò: I know. What was that like? Was that sort of intimidating, or were you, like, "Well, I don't ..." you know, "I'm- I went to London drama school. I'm from Italy. I don't care about any of these people"? Yeah- Beatrice Grannò: Um- ... what was that dynamic like? Beatrice Grannò: I think- I think for me it was ... I mean, I was- I was going crazy because I l-, you know, I love Aubrey Plaza, Michael Imperioli, and like- Mm. Beatrice Grannò: ... Murray Abraham. So I was, like, "Is this really ..." Like, "How is this happening? How am I ... Uh, how am I at this level? I don't know. Am I ... Will I be good enough? Will I be, like, good- as good as they are?" And- Mm-hmm. Beatrice Grannò: You know, I felt that. I felt that gap, of course. But then at one point I was like ... I mean, Mike White was looking for an Italian girl who could play the piano and sing, and- Yeah. Beatrice Grannò: ... he wanted to draft this kind of, you know, pure and innocent vibe at the beginning. I was, like- Totally. Beatrice Grannò: ... "This is good for me," like ... [laughs] Beatrice Grannò: I mean, it's like, this is ... Like, I was so lucky that he wrote the character because that was the luck moment. Because when he was writing it, he didn't know that- that there was an Italian girl there. It was just perfect. And- Yeah. It was perfect. Beatrice Grannò: ... that- that moment was lucky for me. But once I got there, I was like, "This is so incredible." I feel so grateful, but at the same time, you know, I'm helping this show as well, because- Mm-hmm. Beatrice Grannò: ... like ... You know, I think, um, uh- And you- you're- you're- you're an integral part of- Beatrice Grannò: Yes. ... the cast, right? There's ... You're- you're- you're absolutely necessary. And I love h- ... I love what you just said about, um, Mia being sort of like an innocent girl, at least at first and whatnot. And, you know, in the first episode, you throw a drink at the hotel pianist because- Beatrice Grannò: Yeah. ... he, you know, insinuates that you're a sex worker- Beatrice Grannò: Yeah. ... right? And that's ... Which is so crazy, though. She's sort of wrestling with, like, you know, i- what she has to do to sort of get ahead with, you know, and to sort of live the life that she wants and not wanting to sort of embody the turn of, you know, being a ... She says, "I'm ..." You know, "I'm a singer. I'm not a prostitute." Beatrice Grannò: Yes. Um, yeah. Can you tell me a little bit about, like that sort of, like- Beatrice Grannò: I think it was- ... juxtaposition, that sort of, like, that ... There's two forces within her that are at odds. Beatrice Grannò: Yeah, there- there's something about ... And it's quite funny. I think Mike White kind- Yeah. Beatrice Grannò: ... made that up while we're working together and, like, his joke about my character, that every time I kind of open up, like- Mm-hmm. Beatrice Grannò: ... "I wanna be a singer. That's my dream." And on the other side, people, like, misunderstands it and they go, "So you wanna have sex?" Like, "Oh." [laughs] Yeah. So ... Beatrice Grannò: Or, like, just happy because of this, and I- and she goes, "No, I'm just being opened, you know? And I'm just smiling at you, the piano guy, not because I wanna have sex with you, but because you're musician and I wanna-" Yeah. Beatrice Grannò: " ... be that too." And- and I think, the- the thing is, like, you know when you want something really bad that you become so clumsy because you wanna get there- Mm-hmm. Beatrice Grannò: ... and you don't think ... You're just like, "Maybe I can do this, this, and this," and then while you do it, you just, you know, you tear everything apart. And, like, Mia will do so many mess, so much mess. And it's like she's clumsy. And though, she doesn't really know, like she just wants to play the piano, you know? And- and I think that's so important. It's a g- ... It- it ... I think there's such an amazing, um ... What Mike White does so well is that there is a class distinction, right? It's like, "Me and Lucia ..." There's this five-star hotel that it's their town that they're not allowed to enter. Valentina says, "No, you can't come in-" Beatrice Grannò: Yeah. ... and whatnot. And there's so much, you know, opportunity, wealth, connections in there. And if they have to, you know, go via sex work, you know, to- to make- Beatrice Grannò: Yeah. ... their dreams come true, then why shouldn't then? I was so happy to see- Beatrice Grannò: [laughs] ... in this episode you and Lucia, when you s- when you got in, when you had that scene with Valentina and she was so made, you know- Beatrice Grannò: Yes. ... when Dominic, Michael Imperioli, puts your names on the hotel room. Can you- Beatrice Grannò: Yeah, and- ... talk to me about that, like, Valentina, "The relationship between me and Lucia and Valentina ..." And sort of, you know, you know ... Lucia even says, like, "Hey, you're a working girl, we're working girls. We're all working here," like- Beatrice Grannò: Yes. ... "We're all trying to get ahead." Beatrice Grannò: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the thing. And it's- it's fun because there's never judgment about it, you know? Mm-hmm. Beatrice Grannò: You know, you normally go, "Aw, these two poor, like ..." You know, do- ... What's the word? How do you call it? Do you say bed- [Italian 00:32:10]? No, in English we say ... Ooh. Tell me. I took Italian for a minute- Beatrice Grannò: Um- ... so maybe I know this [inaudible 00:32:16] [laughs] Beatrice Grannò: I don't- I don't know what to say in English, but you know, like, you know, you see a young girl, like, and she's a prostitute, and you go like, "Aw, poor little girl, she's a victim," like this and that- Mm-hmm. Beatrice Grannò: ... blah, blah, blah. Or they- they just don't care. And the thing is, like, there's no judgment whatsoever. It just ... It's a game. They're like, "We're gonna do this. They're rich people. We are, like ..." You know. It's fun. It's just ... And it's a comedy, you know? Thing is ... Thing about this show is that it's a comedy and it- it has so much deep, deep thoughts into it, but at the end, like, like, you know, "We- we just wanna have fun and we just wanna entertain." And I think it's ... It was great. It was just great to play that character. Oh my gosh. Well speaking of entertaining, we did talk about this a little bit. I've gotta say, your number, your big piano number for episode two, is so absolutely fantastic, and it is sort of ironic, right? You're singing The Best Things In Life Are Free, and yet the whole episode we see you, like, spending money, and, you know, like- Beatrice Grannò: Yeah. ... and, like, spending this man's money. It's sort of like ... It's ironic. So how did you come up with what song ... How did you guys land on that song? It's sort of perfect for the episode. Beatrice Grannò: I think ... I mean, all the songs were Mike White's choices and- Oh wow. Beatrice Grannò: ... I'm playing- I'm playing, like, five songs in the show, uh, and they're like, of ... Yeah. And that was kind of related to ... And we played it live. I mean, I- I played it live. Um, um ... So it was very fun for me to, like, just sit down and, like, play that song, 'cause it was- it was a real performance 'cause I- I was there, like, and it was really happening. It wasn't prerecorded, nothing. Wow. Beatrice Grannò: And I love that song because, you know, it's kind of, like, that's the moment where you see me and Lucia being a bit, like, superficial, like, "Aw, let's go in. Let's go crazy. Let's put on makeup." But then we have that moment, we share that moment, when I sing and, like, I look at Lucia and Lucia looks back at me, almost like ... almost like, moved by the performance. Mm-hmm. Beatrice Grannò: So sweet. And- and the- the song says, "The best things in life are free," which it's basically our love we have for one another, our friendship. Mm. Beatrice Grannò: At the end, I think, it's the m- it's- it's- it's the only, like ... It's the only spontaneous and, like, truthful relationship in the series- Wow. That's really- Beatrice Grannò: [inaudible 00:34:26] always, like, really close and we always support each other, and it's ... I mean, I love the fact that, you know, Mike wants the story of, like, a female friendship- Mm-hmm. Beatrice Grannò: ... 'cause we don't always see that. Audio: [singing] Chris Murphy: I mean, it was so fantastic and I think something that viewers might not know is that, um, Este Haim really [inaudible 00:35:18] Beatrice Grannò: Yes. ... the Haim Sisters, was a musical consultant on this show. So you worked with her on this song. So can you please tell me, as a big HAIM fan, can you tell me what that was like, or what- Beatrice Grannò: Oh my god. ... how she helped shaped the- the song and the piece? Beatrice Grannò: Y- ... She was everything that you see, like she- she was, like, fundamental. And I'm- I'm really, I'm serious. Also, as a person, I am very, um ... I don't open up straight away. Mm-hmm Beatrice Grannò: So, when, like, she arrived, I was like, "Oh my god, she's gonna tell me how to do things." And I'm like ... I didn't even know where to start. And I was like, I was so scared. Mm. Beatrice Grannò: But her personality is so special that she managed to kind of break that with me. I don't know how. Um, and we- we- we really connected. And I remember, because I'm a folk singer, my voice- Mm-hmm. Beatrice Grannò: ... is very, like, breathy voice. Uh, but she was- Totally. Beatrice Grannò: [inaudible 00:36:08]. Breathy's a bad word. Like ... Well, it wouldn't- No. Breathy is great. It's great. I think your voice ... And I'll tell you, I think your voice is ... It's- it's beautiful, it's breathy, it's like you have a really great belt, but it's like, lyrical. It's- it's floaty. It's- it's, like, it's- Beatrice Grannò: No. Like, I would sing, like- It's very floaty. Beatrice Grannò: Like literally, I would sing with a lot of air. Mm-hmm. Beatrice Grannò: She was like, "[inaudible 00:36:24]. You're here." [laughs] Beatrice Grannò: "This is your moment," like, "You have to sing it." She said, "Belt." Beatrice Grannò: [inaudible 00:36:31] She said, "You gotta belt it out." Beatrice Grannò: "Belt- belt it. 'Cause you have to, like ... This is your moment." Yeah. Beatrice Grannò: And I was like, "I don't know if I can do that." She goes, uh, "Yes, you can." And then- and then, eventually, like, she really, like, made me see how my voice can really fly, and I was really happy about it. And also, when she arrived, you know, I'm gonna say ... I knew HAIM band, okay, but they're not really famous in Italy, so I didn't know- Right [laughs]. Beatrice Grannò: I didn't know their faces straight away. [inaudible 00:36:58] Yeah, I so understand that. That's actually very fair. Beatrice Grannò: Well, let's go back. First she arrived, then we start working together, and then, like I didn't connect it straight away. And then- and then she was singing so well and I said, "Este, your voice is beautiful." Like, "You're a musician, right?" And she said, "Yeah. I have a band with my sisters." And I said, "Ah, that is amazing. What do you guys do?" [laughs] Beatrice Grannò: And then- and then the producer, Dave Bernad, was there, and he said, uh, "[inaudible 00:37:23], she's from, HAIM band. Do you know HAIM band?" Yeah. Beatrice Grannò: I was like- [inaudible 00:37:26] [laughs] Beatrice Grannò: ... "Uh, okay." [laughs] That is so funny. Beatrice Grannò: I was like, "I'm so sorry, Este," like, "I'm so sorry." Um, and then- That's an honest mistake. Beatrice Grannò: I know. That's- that's ... Beatrice Grannò: And then I messaged my- my, uh, musicians' friend back in Italy and I said, "This happened to me today." And they were so angry at me. They were like- [laughs] Beatrice Grannò: ... "How could you?" They're like, "It's-" Oh. Beatrice Grannò: [inaudible 00:37:47] [laughs] Oh my gosh. That's absolutely ... I think that's, like, the best way to meet Este Haim. I think that's- I think that's incredible. Beatrice Grannò: Yeah. Well, Beatrice, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast- Beatrice Grannò: Thank you. It was so lovely talking to you. Beatrice Grannò: So amazing to talk to you. It was great. Thank you. Richard Lawson: All right, Chris, uh, now it's time for the final segment of this and every episode of Still Watching. The White Lotus. Who's gonna die? Uh, just so you know, you know, uh, there is something at stake here. Chris Murphy: Yeah, there are stakes. Richard Lawson: Whoever of the two of us is right gets an Aperol spritz. Chris Murphy: Yeah, right, and one of those big ones like they have in the show- Richard Lawson: Yeah. Chris Murphy: ... those big orange ones. Richard Lawson: Which I kind of hope you win, 'cause I think they're so gross [laughs]. Chris Murphy: Oh my god. Okay, I hope I win too. Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah. Maybe we could al- alter mine 'cause- Chris Murphy: Make it Negronis Sbagliato for you. Richard Lawson: Ooh, I don't know. Maybe just the Sbagliato. Maybe just a Prosecco. Chris Murphy: [laughs] Richard Lawson: Um, but last week, Chris, you thought it might be poor Tanya ... Chris Murphy: I ... Yes. Richard Lawson: Um, I was maybe even darker and said Mia and/or Lucia- Chris Murphy: Mm-hmm. Richard Lawson: ... which I really ... after this episode, especially, I'm like, "I hope that's not true." Chris Murphy: Oh, absolutely. Richard Lawson: Um, but also, uh, another person has weighed in. Chris Murphy: Ooh, we have ... Okay. Richard Lawson: A listener named Tanya, coincidentally ... Chris Murphy: Uh, okay [laughs] Richard Lawson: [laughs] It wasn't my- Chris Murphy: At least it's not Jennifer Coolidge. Richard Lawson: This is not [inaudible 00:39:02] Tanya, this is a different Tanya who listens to this podcast. Chris Murphy: Okay. Richard Lawson: Um, she wrote in about Tanya, uh, and Greg. Chris Murphy: Okay, that Tanya. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Chris Murphy: Does she think it's Tanya? Richard Lawson: Well, sh-, uh, Tanya writes, uh, "Maybe Greg has a secret family and plans on murdering Tanya for the money, and that's why he didn't want the assistant there." Chris Murphy: Mm. Richard Lawson: So, uh, "My guess," this is Tanya writing, "is Portia saves Tanya and the three Italian Americans get dragged into a coverup because by that time, uh, Portia is fucking the Stanford rep." [laughs] Chris Murphy: Is fucking the Stanford rep. Okay. Richard Lawson: Uh, that's- Chris Murphy: Wow, that's a very in depth theory. Richard Lawson: It's ... Yeah. Uh, but I- I kinda like it. I mean, that would tilt this show more into, like, knives out territory [laughs]. Chris Murphy: [laughs] Yes, absolutely. Richard Lawson: But, um, which, hey, you know, you never know. Chris Murphy: You never know. Richard Lawson: Um, but that's interesting, Tanya. Thank you for writing in. Um- Chris Murphy: Yes, thank you for writing in. I do think that's ... I think that's very interesting. I mean, I guess, from this episode we learn that, like, there's a prenup in tact, so I don't know how much the mur- ... You know, that complicates the murdering- Richard Lawson: Right. Chris Murphy: ... for money thing a little bit. Richard Lawson: So I have a new theory. Chris Murphy: Okay, what's your- Richard Lawson: I mean, I'm gonna have a new theory every week, so that's- Chris Murphy: ... theory? Richard Lawson: ... that's fun, right? Chris Murphy: Yeah, it's the fun of it, yes. Richard Lawson: Um, based on this ... You know, we kind of started this episode by talking about this very, I think, thesis heavy conversation between Portia, uh, and Albie. I don't know, I think they might kinda Ophelia together or something. Chris Murphy: No way. Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah. I don't know. Chris Murphy: Both of them? Richard Lawson: Maybe Albie tries to be, like, the bold man and saves her from drowning or something. Chris Murphy: Okay. Richard Lawson: You know, rather tragic like that. Chris Murphy: Something ... Yeah, and he- the- Richard Lawson: Um- Chris Murphy: ... the ultimate sacrifice as a man. Richard Lawson: And it would explain why Daphne's completely un- seemingly unaware of these deaths. Chris Murphy: Yes, because- Richard Lawson: Right, because she's not related to them at all. Chris Murphy: It's not in her circle- Richard Lawson: Yeah. Chris Murphy: ... which is, again, another thing, because I- my updated theory comes from that moment with Cameron on the phone. I was really, really struck by Cameron screaming about his luggage on the phone. Richard Lawson: [laughs] Chris Murphy: He was [laughs] very aggressive. Richard Lawson: Is he gonna kill a Delta employee or something? [laughs] Chris Murphy: [laughs] Yes. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Chris Murphy: It's gonna be a- a Delta stewardess. Um, but no, I actually think that we see that he's capable of rage- Richard Lawson: Mm-hmm. Chris Murphy: ... and- and Daphne says that weird thing, that he's got a long fuse, but, like- Richard Lawson: As soon as he blows up ... Chris Murphy: Sometimes he blows up. Richard Lawson: It's kinda funny. Chris Murphy: It's funny ... Yeah. She's like, "Ha, ha, ha, it's not a big deal." So given sort of his lascivious sort of attitude toward Harper and their sort of on and off again thing, I was like, "Maybe ... S- ... Maybe they end up hooking up or something and-" Richard Lawson: Mm. Chris Murphy: " ... somehow that ends really poorly for Harper." And that's- and that's why, you know, her reaction is so crazy. Um, it's like, "Oh my god, that's my friend, Harper, who is-" Richard Lawson: Oh wow. Chris Murphy: " ... face down in the Mediterranean," which is- Richard Lawson: I mean- Chris Murphy: ... an ocean. Richard Lawson: ... I can kinda see it. Harper's trying to be adventurous. Chris Murphy: Yes. Trying- Richard Lawson: Maybe she gets on a jet ski. [laughs] Chris Murphy: [laughs] Yeah, no, those are dangerous. Richard Lawson: Yeah. You know, final day, "Let me just, you know, like, get my groove back," kinda thing. Chris Murphy: Mm-hmm. Richard Lawson: Oh, intere- ... So we're [laughs] ... Chris Murphy: [laughs] Richard Lawson: We're- we're now ... We're- we're really mired in tragedy. I mean- Chris Murphy: Yeah, I know. Richard Lawson: ... all our predictions are sad. Um- Chris Murphy: Well, there's no fun prediction, is there? [laughs] Richard Lawson: No, I guess not, no. Chris Murphy: But that would be really sad, really tough- Richard Lawson: Yeah. Chris Murphy: ... 'cause I- I would hate to see Harper go that way, and I would hate if Cameron were responsible for Harper going. Um, but, given his rage, I don't know. I could see it. Richard Lawson: Yeah, if you have any strong thoughts about who might be dead, please email us at stillwatchingpod@gmail.com. Give us your theories about who those bodies in the water are. In the meantime, between, uh, before next week, uh, you can find me on Twitter @rilaws. Chris, where are you? Chris Murphy: And you can find me on Twitter @christress. Richard Lawson: Anything at VF.com to, uh, plug? Chris Murphy: Not ... Basically this podcast, baby- Richard Lawson: [laughs] Chris Murphy: ... so keep listening. Richard Lawson: I like that focus. Chris Murphy: [laughs] This has been Still Watching from Vanity Fair. Our editor and producer is Dave Gonzales, and we had production help from Peyton Hayes and Katey Rich. We had technical assistance from Scott Lee. Steven Valentino is our executive producer. Our theme music is by Alexis Cuadrado. We'll be back next week for episode three. Looking forward to seeing you then.