Scene from "White Lotus": "No, you can't go. You can't go. You just- please just sit on the couch. I just... I did get the new _Vanity Fair._ You can read it." Richard Lawson: Hello and welcome to _Still Watching_ a weekly television podcast from _Vanity Fair_. I'm Richard Lawson. Chris Murphy: And I'm Chris Murphy. We are here to discuss the third episode of the HBO series, _The White Lotus,_ "Bull Elephants." This episode, we've got a lot of characters getting up to no good in various pools, a _Godfather_ tour and the arrival of an honest to God fortune teller. Richard Lawson: And we'll also hear Chris's talk with Michael Imperioli, the television veteran whose character Dominic seems to be heading towards some positive steps, maybe? Uh, even if he seems really miserable about it. Michael Imperioli: I think sexual politics and sexual dynamics between, you know, men and women and masculine and feminine, it's an ancient thing, which I think why Sicily makes it the perfect backdrop for it. Chris Murphy: There is also the ongoing and all important question of who winds up dead at the end of the show. Each week at the end of the episode, Richard and I are gonna debate who we think is dead. Richard Lawson: And we're gonna fold in your theories that you sent to us at stillwatchingpod@gmail.com. Uh, and to keep ourselves kind of accountable and raise the stakes a little bit, whoever predicts right, you or me, Chris, uh, wins an aperol spritz. Chris Murphy: Yes. Even though you don't like them. So if I win, I get an aperol spritz and you have to drink one. Richard Lawson: So Chris, this episode is where things start to go wrong. Do you feel that way? Chris Murphy: Yeah, I, Well, I was gonna say, this is the episode where things start to pop off. Richard Lawson: Yeah. It gets a little more exciting. Chris Murphy: It gets a little sexy. It gets a little - Richard Lawson: More mysterious. Chris Murphy: Yes. A little dangerous too. Richard Lawson: Yes. Yes. Yeah, for sure. And I think that this is also the episode where Meghann Fahy's already wonderful performance, really kicks into gear, so let's start with Daphne. Chris Murphy: You fully read my mind. She is the- not that episodes need to have an mvp, but she blew me outta the water this episode. Um, specifically with her sort of girl strip slash kidnapping of Harper. Richard Lawson: Yeah. A total scam. Like she's like, I just on a whim rented this villa. Oh, but I thought to pack extra toothpaste and toothbrushes. Chris Murphy: I'm always bringing extra toothpaste with me on day trips with my girlfriends. Richard Lawson: And so she and Harper are inextricably linked in this episode. Um, and that starts because Harper is determined that she's gonna be fun now and friendly now, and - Chris Murphy: She's gonna change. Richard Lawson: Yeah. And she has this very scuttled attempt at morning sex with Ethan and, and it doesn't go well. Cause she's like, But you're supposed to be horny after you run and he's like, There's clearly something more happening there, but she still sticks to her plan to be nice. She shows up to breakfast, all sunny, look at the beautiful weather. Chris Murphy: She's wearing a headband. Richard Lawson: She's wearing a head- it's her new Italian look. You know- Chris Murphy: How nice is the sky? Just things that we're not used to seeing Harper engage with. Richard Lawson: And I think that Aubrey Plaza is really good at playing that falseness. You know? It's believable enough. Chris Murphy: And I do believe that she's actually trying to change. I do believe that she's trying to be this fresh, sunny, easy, breezy Harper that might not really exist. Richard Lawson: It, it sadly might not. I mean, she's just too aware of all the pains and ills of the world, you know? Um, and I think that, I don't know, I'm curious to hear what you think, but I think Daphne smells that out instantly. Oh, she, But she's kind of into it. She's like, Ooh, let's play this game. Yeah. Chris Murphy: Well, Daphne, if we learn anything from this episode, Daphne loves games. Richard Lawson: Uhhuh. Yeah. Chris Murphy: Daphne loves to play and I think she, to go back to sort of whether Daphne's as simple as we might have thought she was from episode one with, you know, I don't vote, I love _Ted Lasso_. If anything, we know that she's much more complicated and a much more discerning character and a much more discerning judge of character than we might have given her credit for at the beginning of the season. And I think she a hundred percent can sniff out Harper's bullshit. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Yeah. Chris Murphy: Harper's bullshitting her. Richard Lawson: And I think that just as Harper, you know, in an earlier episode was being like, there's gotta be something wrong with their marriage. She's trying to investigate it. I think Daphne's investigating Harper's relationship too, because she's like, how do you guys tick? Like I know what deal I have with my shitty husband, Cameron. But like, say that we kind of enjoy this shittiness a little bit, you know? Like it's, she said last week, it's funny when he loses his temper, you know? But I think, and I think she knows that there is something at root wrong in the other marriage, uh, and she's just trying to sniff that out and which involves kidnapping. Chris Murphy: Yeah. So, Yes. And feeding her drugs. Richard Lawson: Right, Exactly. Chris Murphy: An edible and kidnapping. But yeah, I think the thing with Daphne and Cameron is that they play games with each other, but I, it's easy to forget that games are often fun and she even says it. Richard Lawson: Right. Chris Murphy: She says, you know, he goes off and does his things and I do what I want. That's the thing about Daphne. She is not to jump to the, her last sort of really fantastic and emotionally moving scene with Harper, she's not a victim. She - Richard Lawson: Right. Yeah. Chris Murphy: She does what she wants. She will rent the villa in Noto, whether or not Cameron wants her to, and she, she's as much in this marriage- she's, she's sort of as equal in a way. Richard Lawson: And I think that my kind of hunch about where this... to the set, this set of couples is headed in the kind of grander, thematic reach of the season is, I kind of think that it's gonna kind of get to a point where you're like, oh, Cameron and Daphne's marriage is better than Harper and Ethan's Chris Murphy: Well- Richard Lawson: Because it's honest. Chris Murphy: There's something about it that you can't say it doesn't work. Richard Lawson: It's honest about being dishonest. Chris Murphy: Yes, it's honest and it's dishonesty and it is working for them. You know, maybe not all the time, but they seem to be at least somewhat on the same page. Right? And we get to Harper and uh, Ethan, if we look at the end of the episode, Harper says, Oh, Ethan never lies to me. Like Ethan, Ethan would never lie to me. Who knows what's to come, but what Cameron and Ethan are up to, I would, I don't... I would be shocked if, if Ethan says, hey Harper, by the way, uh, Cameron fucked a prostitute on our couch while you were gone. Sorry about that. That's why I missed your call. Richard Lawson: I, I kissed someone and I was on drugs and whatever, and I wasn't, you know? Yeah, exactly. And I think that in that, and, and because Ethan says it too. I don't lie to my wife. And like that's a nice sentiment in a kind of vacuum. Chris Murphy: It's beautiful. Richard Lawson: But it's so rigid that it makes it easily, you know, it makes the relationship that much easier to break. Chris Murphy: And false. Richard Lawson: And also like some lies help a relationship. Chris Murphy: Yeah. Some lies are really important. Some lies do help. I, I'm curious to know what you think about, uh, Daphne's episode titled sort of speech about men. Richard Lawson: Oh yeah. Chris Murphy: Bull Elephant, Right? And how men, It's so sad to be a man and how they just go off alone. Scene from "White Lotus": "Cameron and I went on a safari, and um, on safari you see all these pods of elephants and they're all like bathing in the river and playing with each other, and it's so sweet. But it's just the moms and the babies because when the boy elephants get too big, they kick them out of the pod. And then the bull elephant has to like wander through the jungle by himself for the rest of his life. I feel sorry for men, you know? It's like they think they're out there doing something really important, but really they're wandering alone." Chris Murphy: And then we cut directly to Ethan and Cameron having the time of their lives on jet skis, sort of not a care in the world. What did you make of that sort of juxtaposition? Richard Lawson: Yeah. That, that, that speech is so good. And I think what I love about _The White Lotus_ as a whole and Mike White's writing as as a whole, is that he- it's, it's ambivalent. It's like characters say things that are kind of true and kind of not. Kind of sad, kind of not. And I think this is a good example of that where Daphne is... that is her perspective on things. Those are the men she knows. I mean, she says to Harper, uh, his other coworkers are like this demonic - Chris Murphy: The triad. Psychotic triad. Richard Lawson: She spends a lot of time with a specific kind of man. And so when you see what she says about elephants through that lens, you're like, okay good on her for trying to have some compassion for it. I don't know if Mike White is in juxtaposing that sentiment with like Ethan and Cameron having a blast together. Um, if that's like, supposed to be disproving her or sort of somehow proving her right. It's like they think they're having these fun things, but all they're doing is competing with each other. All they're doing is one upping each other. And so they are- Chris Murphy: And they are alone on their jet skies. Richard Lawson: In that experience. Chris Murphy: Yeah. They're completely isolated in that experience. I just think it's so, I love what you said about Mike White's writing and to have that sort of depiction of men, right? Of his thoughts about men or Daphne's thoughts about men, right after we see Harper's sort of dream sequence walking through Italy, what it feels like to be Harper, right? We see her surrounded by all of these men just staring her down, eating her up, uh, with their eyes. Um, and you can feel how uncomfortable and how that might be how certain women and many women probably feel walking through life all the time. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Yeah. Chris Murphy: Um, not a woman to be found in that sequence. I thought it was such a, you know, a, such a nice little like, lyrical moment to illustrate how Harper feels about being a woman. Richard Lawson: Because it's both exciting and scary. You know, it's creepy. It's a little bit horror movie, but it's also, it's like that, um, that movie _Malèna_ with Monica Bellucci where she sits down and then all the men come to light her cigarette. You know, it felt like maybe a reference to that, um, or probably some older classic Italian film that I'm not aware of that works. Um, but yeah, it was also interesting from a kind of style point that like, this show doesn't go into that many like reveries like this. Chris Murphy: No, that was very- Richard Lawson: And there's a couple other things we'll get to in, or one, at least big one mystical element to this episode that you're like, what's, what's going on here? There's something sort of simmering. I think it might have something to do with like, the ancient Italy of it all. You know, I'm thinking about like Harper and uh, Daphne being in this villa that's beautiful, but also you have to think about like, so rich people used to live here and now you can just rent it for the weekend so that wealth goes away. Like all of this stuff that, like Cameron works so, so deviously for like, it eventually goes away. Maybe not for them or their kids or their grandkids, but somewhere along the line it becomes something that just people stay in for the night, you know? And so I think there is a sense of like there's a kind of eerie creep around these people of like, like history's coming for them, or time is coming for them. Chris Murphy: Um, it, it's so interesting what you said about sort of the ruins and how like this palazzo like it used to, you know, house these rich families and now you can rent it out for a night. It's sort of very similar to, uh, or I see a parallel with that to the _Godfather_ of it all. Richard Lawson: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, you have to kind of wonder are these people onto something in a way. I mean I don't want to be that kind of person, but like they do seem just to get ahead for a while anyway, you know? Chris Murphy: Yeah. And I will say Theo James is so pretty and charming that he sort of made it seem like, it makes a lot of sense. Richard Lawson: He's, he's well cast. Chris Murphy: He's really well cast, and it sort of, to go back to that, it sort of made sense why Ethan sort of just went along with him for the ride of a party when he knew, he knew it was getting out of hand and it sort of starts to get out of hand. You can feel him start to freak out internally at the very end of the episode. But Cameron, say what you will, he's a, he's a good time. Richard Lawson: This is a seduction. Chris Murphy: It's a seduction. Richard Lawson: You know, he's trying to seduce Ethan into investing with him. And, um, there's a, that's an intricate process it seems, but one that Cameron is well practiced at. Um, and then I guess it ha- you have to question then, is Daphne in on that seduction? Is she trying to get Harper to her cause? I don't know that dragooning Harper into an overnight in a different town is the good way to get, to get, to get to that particular person. Like, I think, but like it could work. It kind of works in that like, Daphne gets some information. You know, I think, you know, I, I'm, I apologize that I keep referencing _Survivor,_ but Mike Wright would probably appreciate it, as a former _Survivor_ contestant but I think he's kind of writing Daphne as one of these clever players who is un under looked in the early episodes because she doesn't do well in the challenges and she's just a pretty girl. And then like halfway through the season, you're like, whoa, Daphne has an incredible strategic game. And how does she know who, everyone who has an idol, like community idol. Like I just think that, like Daphne is, I think is sort of like one of Mike White's, like platonic, ideal _Survivor_ players. Chris Murphy: That is so, that is blowing my brain right now. I'm not even a _Survivor_ head, but I'm like, Oh, she's Sandra. Like, is she like- Richard Lawson: Yeah. There's a little Sandra in there, but I'm, yeah, like, it's just, it's, it's funny the way that he is kind of writing the sort of social strategy of all these people. You know, and some are better than others. I think you mentioned _Godfather_, so maybe we can, that we can lead us over to Albie and Portia and Albie's terrible strategy. Chris Murphy: Oh goodness. Richard Lawson: Like his heart's in the right place. He's at this _Godfather_ luncheon looking at the mannequin and he says all this stuff, which again, with Mike White, the trickiness of his writing, the ambivalence is like, the kid is right. Chris Murphy: Yeah. Richard Lawson: I think in a lot of ways. Chris Murphy: Gender is a social construct. Richard Lawson: But he's being annoying about it. And he's saying it in a way that's like, Portia has basically done everything she can except say it out loud. Like, I want you to be a little dangerous and a little bit of a pig because like, that's more fun. We're not gonna get married. This is just a vacation trist. So like, can it be, can you just be a little bit whatever? Chris Murphy: Yeah. Richard Lawson: And Albie is just not listening, which in some ways makes him yet another obstinate lonely man. You know? So in all his softness, he's actually kind of displaying some typical male stubbornness. Chris Murphy: Yes, but I, I will push back on that specifically with the _Godfather_ scene because I do think while he becomes sort of the voice of Gen Z in that moment. Oh, the _Godfather,_ is it really a great movie or does it just glamorize an entire way of life that is now gone where men could go out and be violent and kill people and sleep with whoever they want and come back to like a nice bowl spaghetti at the end of the day from their loving wife. I think that's an interesting point of view that is often not interrogated because people are like, Oh, well, you know, the _Godfather's_ such a great movie, or _The Sopranos_ is such great- or, you know, these are such classics. They're part of the cannon. So we often don't wrestle with, oh, the social implications of that and is that movie so great because, and this is the argument- because men are hardwired to want to do that and that's what men do. Or is it because movies like that and entertainment like that have socialized us to, or socialized men or people to engage in the world in that way. Richard Lawson: Right. Is it nature or nurture? And I think White would say it's both. Chris Murphy: Yeah. Richard Lawson: He would kind of shrug his shoulders and be like, I don't know. I mean, I think it's a little bit of, you know, and I think that you look at Albie and, and to some extent, um, I mean not, no, to a kind of big extent Dominic is, is at least giving lip service to the idea that he's trying to break his own cycle. Chris Murphy: Yeah. Richard Lawson: Albie is clearly trying to break a, a family, a generational cycle by being you know, the sensitive woke, you know, whatever guy. Um, but White, you know, draws the limits of that. Or because is Albie doing it for the right reasons? Is he doing it organically? You know? And look, Portia is just one woman that he's interested in, um, who just doesn't seem to, you know, cut into what he's saying. Maybe other women would. But like, I think that, I think that, yeah, that conversation in, in tandem with, um, the, the elephant speech is like, you know, we're talking a lot about like the nature of men. And actually, uh, Tanya, when she's having dinner with Portia says something similar. Scene from "White Lotus": "You already meet a guy here?" "Kind of, yeah. I did. He's really smart and everything. And went to Stanford. You know, one of those guys. He's really nice. Maybe a little too nice. You know? I, we, you just like cut my heart rate up a little bit more or something." "Portia, don't spend your life chasing emotionally unavailable men." "Oh." "You'll spend your whole life just banging your head against the wall." Richard Lawson: Um, so that scene is fascinating to me. Is this the first time on the show? Well, I guess she, Tanya had some moments of, of clarity in the first season, but like, this is the first moment I can distinctly remember where Tanya, it's like, oh, like you're a human being who like actually has some insights into life. Chris Murphy: You're someone who is, uh, opinion should be valued. Yeah, I should listen to you right now. Richard Lawson: She's being kind and we don't see that often. You know? Chris Murphy: The funny thing though is her kindness comes from a total selfish place of my relationship has just gone to shit. A fortune teller has just told me my husband is cheating on me. She's spiraling. So she's not even being kind on purpose. She's being kind because she's spiraling because of her own life. Richard Lawson: That's true. Chris Murphy: So we can't give her too much credit there, I would say. Richard Lawson: Tanya is not saying that to Portia purely out of like the care for another person. She's talking to herself. And I guess, yeah, but also at the same time being like, don't go the route I went. Chris Murphy: That doesn't mean it's bad advice. Richard Lawson: Right. Chris Murphy: It's actually pretty good advice. And yet I think now we gotta, we gotta fling opened the doors of Casa Moore and we got, Yeah, we got a hunk just entered the villa. Richard Lawson: Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. Chris Murphy: Our- we don't even know his name yet. Richard Lawson: Mr. Pool man or something. I don't- Chris Murphy: Mr. Cold nipples pool, man. Richard Lawson: Yeah, yeah. Chris Murphy: In the red bathing suit, uh, straight off the set of _Love Island._ Richard Lawson: Fully. Chris Murphy: He comes in and honestly, and I want your take on this. I think if he was not in the pool at that exact moment, and Portia had not seen him, Portia and Albie would've made out and they would've, you know, maybe gone back to her room and everything could have been happily ever after for them. But this random man is so goddamn hot. Richard Lawson: It's ridiculous. And clearly- Chris Murphy: That ruins it. Richard Lawson: Clearly hot in a asshole way, you know? Chris Murphy: In an exact opposite way of Albie and exactly what Portia sort of has said that she wanted in a way. Richard Lawson: Right. Here's an aggressive bull elephant pushing the other one out of the, out of the pack, you know? Um, out of the herd. Um, and you know, I, I won't, I don't imagine that this character is here by accident. I mean, I've, I'm, we'll probably see some more of him, as we probably will um, more of whoever this person that the actor Tom Hollander is playing who keeps looking at, uh, Tanya. And she, I mean, I, I so relate to this, she thinks she's kind of being made fun of, she's like doing something in my shirt. When I was in, uh, college, I used to wait tables at this kind of diner slash Jewish deli place, and these teenage girls were all kind of tittering every time I walked over the table. And I thought they were making fun of me. And so I kind of snapped and I went out to them and I was like, that's really, really rude. And I had like tears in my eyes and they were like, um, what? We just thought you were cute. And I was like, oh, I'm so sorry. Chris Murphy: My heart. Richard Lawson: So I hope that that Tanya is wrong about these men kind of toying with her, um, because they seem genuinely interested. But to what end? We don't know. Chris Murphy: We don't know yet. But yeah, they haven't done anything. That is one of the most heartbreaking and cutest stories I've ever heard in my life. Must say that. Richard Lawson: It's the last time anyone called me cute, so I savor it. Chris Murphy: _Still Watching_ will be back in just a moment and when we return a conversation with Michael Imperioli and theories about who's dead. Richard Lawson: So Chris, uh, one of our listeners, Jacqueline, wrote into stillwatchingpod@gmail.com, which everyone should do. Chris Murphy: Absolutely everyone. Richard Lawson: Theories, questions, thoughts, complaints. Chris Murphy: Thank you, Jacqueline. Richard Lawson: Um, she is a theory that Portia might be secretly sleeping with Greg. Chris Murphy: What now? Richard Lawson: Tanya's husband. Chris Murphy: Yeah, that is, that would really complicate things. And I guess we have no idea who he's on the phone with, right? Not to be ageist or anything like that. Uh, Greg doesn't seem like the caveman that Portia is maybe lusting for, imagining on this Sicilian trip, but we- who's to say at this juncture. Richard Lawson: It might explain like Portia has that kind of scene at breakfast where she starts, she's just having another spiral and she's like, I'm just so depressed at home and like is everything boring and like maybe part of her sadness, anxiety, whatever is related to an affair. I don't know. Chris Murphy: It feels like that would be the least boring thing she could possibly do though. Like, she's like- Richard Lawson: Yeah, that's true. That's true. Chris Murphy: She's lamenting that, and I think this is again, another beautiful Mike White speech, is everything boring. You go to some beautiful location in Sicily and you take a photo that everyone else has taken a photo and you're just contributing to the content mill and you can't even get lost anymore because you have a Google phone. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Yeah. Chris Murphy: Um, and it feels like she's coming out of, you know, the malaise of the pandemic and wants to have something exciting and that feels a bridge too far of an exciting thing to have happened to her. But I do think that's a very fun theory, Jacqueline. Richard Lawson: Yes. But you know, speaking of, um, listener emails and, and we were talking about the Italy of it all, the _Godfather_ fetishism of it all. Um, a listener who lives in Perugia, Hannah, um, she's American, but she lives in Italy. Uh, she, she thinks that there's something about that Sicilian fantasy. So she writes, Bert's comment where he says, we're Sicilian just like you cracked me up. Um, and may be important to their visit to the to, um, Bert's ancestral town. She says there are many, uh, Americans of Sicilian heritage. I am one of them, by the way. Uh, and they love to bring it up when they want to feel less, uh, white. But the real Sicily is so different, so very different from the _Godfather _resort fever dream that so many have. The culture is very, very different. She says, I'm not an expert by any means, but I know that most of the Americans who like to brag about the baked ziti their nonna makes would shit their pants if they had to navigate the piles of trash in Pothole Road outside of Palermo. Which is the biggest city in Sicily. Uh, my husband who works for a Sicilian company and whose grandparents are all Sicilian refuses to live there. Uh, I am anxiously awaiting what happens when Grandpa encounters reality. Um, yeah, I mean, that's, that's something, you know, we've spent a lot of this episode and really the past two episodes talking and thank you, uh, Hannah, from the, for the comment, I wish I lived in Perugia, that sounds nice. Um, we've talked a lot about the gender dynamics. This episode is heavy on that, but we, there are also the matters of class that _The White Lotus_, um, likes to be about. Where did that kind of manifest itself most potently in this episode? Is it still Lucia and Mia or- Chris Murphy: Yeah, I, I would say it's still Lucia and Mia and I would say towards the end of the episode when they're sort of, you know, up shits creek without a paddle after Dominic ends their relationship and you have to see them be resourceful and sort of figure out how to stay within the enclave of _The White Lotus_. One way that we see the class issues, but then also we walk with Valentina to work and we see her sitting outside feeding cats and getting hit on by a Sicilian man and we're sort of unraveling her story as the hotel manager. So I'm curious to see... I don't think we're gonna get that far out of the walls of _The White Lotus_, but if we were is that gonna be through Valentina and her own personal story? Richard Lawson: Something's happening with Valentina in this episode. Chris Murphy: I think she's got a little bit of a crush. Richard Lawson: Uh, I'm curious to see, because you know, by this point in the first season, We really knew Armond, like, like he was a major part of the show. The, the, the hotel manager. So now his counterpart in Sicily, she hasn't really been that involved yet. Chris Murphy: She hasn't eaten anyone's ass yet. Right. Richard Lawson: That we know of. Chris Murphy: That we've seen on camera. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I'm kind of curious about that. And also there is the matter of Valentina having that disdain for Lucia and Mia. So where's that relationship gonna go? Uh, and also Lucia and Mia are still on Dominic's payroll, whatever- on his dime. They're at least registered as guests in his and his dad's rooms. So, yeah, I don't know. And I, I wonder if Dominic's new sobriety of, if we wanna call it that, how, if that's sustainable, um, which I don't know. Is that a good time to cut to your conversation with Michael Imperioli? Chris Murphy: I feel that's a great time just because I got the pleasure, I had the pleasure of interviewing Michael Imperioli about his work as Dominic this season, and we really talked about whether men or whether anyone has the capacity to change. Like whether that's even possible. Dominic says that he wants to change, but clearly he is dealing with sex compulsion and addiction and a lot of personal issues, and we chatted for a while about whether or not we can change. Whether or not people can change. It was really enlightening and edifying. Richard Lawson: Well, let's hear that now. Chris Murphy: I am so excited to be chatting with Michael Imperioli, who stars on _The White Lotus_ season two as Dominic, a Hollywood producer with, uh, I guess some issues with impulse control, we might say. Um, thanks for, thanks for joining me, Michael. How are you? Michael Imperioli: I'm great. Chris Murphy: Yeah. We're gonna dive into episode three, but sort of kicks off with a bang, sort of. We open with Dominic, sort of, you know, reeling from his night before. You got Lucia in bed. You've got, um, Mia on the couch. Um, and it seems to have a little bit of remorse, I guess, in that opening scene. I mean, what do you, what is sort of running through his brain, would you say? Or what was running through your brain, you know, when we wake up that morning? Michael Imperioli: You know, when I discussed the character with Mike White, we were both on the same page in terms of this guy's dealing with compulsive behavior. You know, you could call it sex addiction, a lot of people do. And meaning that he's doing stuff that he knows is gonna cause him regret, remorse, guilt, um, and in the moment when he makes these decisions to do it, you know, he's under the grips of this kind of spell that, you know, this is gonna be amazing and this is gonna be great. And, and very much like when someone who's struggling with drugs or alcohol feels like, you know, the drink's gonna make everything good and then you wake up with a hangover the next day and you realize you did it again and you didn't wanna do it. So I think really he's, you know, for these very fleeting quick moments of pleasure, he's paying a gigantic price that he's, he realizes he doesn't wanna do anymore, but he hasn't found, you know, the, the way to kind of overcome it. Chris Murphy: When did you get on board with _White Lotus_ season two and sort of like discover that, you know, Dominic would be struggling with impulse control? Is it col- how collaborative was that experience, I guess? Michael Imperioli: Well, I got on board after everything was written. You know, uh, it was January, you know, we went to Italy towards the end of February. So around the end of January I was cast. And, you know, we had a couple conversations and, and for Mike it was really about that. And as well as for me, that's what I felt. He's not someone who's just, uh, a cheat and a philander, although that is what he's doing in essence, but, you know, it's compounded by you know, this compulsive thing that's driving him to do these negative behaviors, things that are very harmful to his life. You know, when we spoke about addiction a lot, because sex addiction is a tricky one. You know, like whereas alcohol, drugs or gambling, right? They're all things that if you have an addiction to them, you shouldn't do it, period. Chris Murphy: Yeah. Yeah. Sort of very clear. Michael Imperioli: People, there's Overeaters Anonymous, which is like deals with addiction to certain types of food. Well, we have to have food to eat, so you gotta figure out ways of eating healthy that's not gonna put your health in danger. Sex addiction's the same thing. Ideally, you wanna have sex integrated into your life as a healthy element that's not gonna kind of cause problems. Chris Murphy: Absolutely. Michael Imperioli: Uh, it's not just like, well, I'm not never gonna have sex for the rest of my life. It's, uh, and it's accompanied by A, the stigma because it's your sexuality and it's very private and B uh, the perception that you just wanna have your cake and eat it too. You wanna be married and, and have sex with, you know, young women. Chris Murphy: Yeah. Michael Imperioli: We have no sympathy for you. Chris Murphy: Well that's so interesting. Cause that seems to be, you know, Dominic's problems, that he wants his cake and he wants to eat it too. You know, he is, you know, he calls his wife on the phone in the first episode, right? And sort of, you know, wants her to come back and it, it seems like his impulse control sort of has fractured his relationship with his family. Potentially to pass the point of no return. Um, I don't know where, where do you think he stands with, you know, I mean, that scene was so wonderful with you on the phone with Laura Dern it turns out, which is so fantastic. Can you tell me a little bit about that, uh, about that scene and where he stands with his wife? Michael Imperioli: Um, you know, he kind of wants her understanding, but knows that he hasn't earned it. He hasn't found a way to get a handle on this. And there are ways, I mean, there are 12 step programs similar to like AA or Narcotics Anonymous and things like that. There's therapy, there's, you know, but you have to, the key to overcoming an addiction or compulsive behavior stuff is number one, admitting that you have a problem. Chris Murphy: Yeah. Richard Lawson: And that it's making your life unmanageable. Chris Murphy: Is he there yet? Do you think he's there yet? Michael Imperioli: Um, I think that call with his wife, might be the, the beginning of it. Chris Murphy: Mm. Being on this trip with his father and his son simultaneously, sort of, I- complicates things even more and it's so wonderful. I mean, the conversations that, you know, you and F. Murray Abraham and Adam DiMarco as, uh, you know, as Bert, your grandfather, and then as Albie your son have about how men operate in society. And a little bit for Dominic, I'm a little bit like given Burt and his, you know, his sort his- you know, attitude towards women, is it sort of learns behavior? Is it nature, is it nurture for Dominic? Like, you know, how much, how responsible is he for the position that he's in given his relationship with his father and his father in general? Michael Imperioli: I mean, I think it's both, you know? It's nature and nurture, you know, it's learned behavior as so- but as far as stopping it, overcoming it, it's completely his responsibility. You're not gonna stop it by blaming it on your father. You have to accept that, you know what, when I was a kid, I was exposed to certain things, certain things were normalized, and maybe that kind of contributed to me going that direction, but blaming my dad ain't gonna solve the problem. You know, he's gotta learn to take responsibility and just say, you know, I think also his success as a- _White Lotus,_ you know, a lot of it's about rich people. His success and his wealth, I think, uh, allowed him to kind of justify certain things. And like, he doesn't want a girlfriend, he doesn't want a new wife. Uh, I think, but he's, you know, his success is kind of justified. Well, I've made all this money. I take care of the family. Everybody has a great life because of me. So I have this little thing where I, you know, that I do, It's not really hurting anybody, but the fact is it is hurting people. Chris Murphy: Dominic is not the only man by, by any means sort of struggling with sort of these impulses and sort of, and struggling and maybe trying to change or not trying to change on the _White Lotus_ season two. I mean, going into this, was Mike White, was he just like, hey, we're really gonna like, examine how men operate in society. We're really just gonna dig into sex this season? Like how , how, how clear was, you know, about the message of the entire season? Because we're seeing it, you know, in all these different pockets throughout the show. Michael Imperioli: I think, you know, it's inherent in the writing. It's, it's really, it, the theme is very different than season one, where this really focuses on sexual politics, but, um, both in like Albie's character representing kind of the modern males, like take on it, post Me Too. Chris Murphy: Yes. Michael Imperioli: There's Bert, which represents kind of like the old world that they over from- brought from Italy, you know what I mean? That the guys, the king of the castle and all that stuff. And then me, who's kind of caught in between both and see's kind of, you know, understands both sides, you know. Um, but I think sexual politics and sexual dynamics between, you know, men and women and masculine and feminine has been going on. It's an ancient thing, which I think why Sicily makes it kind the perfect backdrop for it, because you have such a connection to the ancient world being in Sicily, and I think that, I think that kind of adds to, to the drama, you know? Chris Murphy: It does, it absolutely, it, it absolutely expands and adds to the drama. And I, I, speaking of the drama and speaking of sort of this sort of like this, the sexual politics, I love, I mean, the scene, the _Godfather_ scene, the, and the conversation about the _Godfather _sort of encapsulates exactly, uh, the dynamic that you just hit on with, you know, Albie being, you know, Post to me to sort of, you know, a Gen Z man, you know, and having sort of saying _The Godfather_ isn't that great of a film. And then Bert and Dominic being like, are you kidding me? It's an amazing film. Just because it's, you know, sort of old world and sort of old fashioned doesn't mean that it, you know, is not a good film. I, I love that. Can you tell me a little bit about, um, that scene in sort of that debate? Cause that seems to be the central debate of, you know, your character's stuck in the middle and you've got like Bert on one side and Albie on the other. And you know, the _Godfather_, it's a classic, but it also did it socialize men to sort of behave in a certain way? Michael Imperioli: Um, you know, it's, it's an interesting argument because a lot, I found a lot of art got reexamined post Me Too. Uh, both art and the artist. So a lot of, uh, artist's behavior getting called out and then people like, uh, you, you shouldn't show his work anymore. You shouldn't watch his work in validating the work, which is, you know, I'm not sure if that's, you know, the right way to go. And then reexamining, like somebody like Henry Miller or Charles Bukowski, people like that, who, you know, a lot of their work is, you know, sexist. That's kind of, the, the, their relationships with women in a lot of ways had that, um, element. Yet, they were very good writers and their writing style and the way they told their stories are very compelling. Does it negate the, um, worth of that art because the politics are outdated or the mentality is outdated? I don't think so. My grandmother loved the _Godfather_. I remember, remember when I was a kid, they had it on TV and they put _Godfather_ one and two, an in chronological order over a week on, on NBC I think, network television, with my grandmother, and she loved that movie to death. Chris Murphy: Mm. That, I mean that's, I mean, that's such a, that's so interesting because you know, of course people love things that are flawed and problematic. And I think the thing that's amazing about Dominic, um, and something that Mike White, Mike White really gets about characters that everyone is flawed. So all of these ar you know, when we have the conversation about art and the artist and separating them, there is no perfect unassailable artist or piece of art that doesn't have maybe something that might be flawed. Michael Imperioli: Cause we're all flawed, right? Chris Murphy: We're all, we're all inherently flawed. And that's the, and that's ex exactly what, um, Dominic, you know, he's, he's, he's struggling with that, I think, um, in a really, uh, a really compelling way. I, it's funny because when I was watching the, the _Godfather _scene, I was like, Oh, we could be having this conversation this could be about the _Sopranos_. I mean, that's, I mean, thinking about a piece of art that, that you know, that it's, you know, amazing and incredible and you know, but also it's sort of about how men, you know, toxic masculinity one might say. Did you like draw a parallel between, do you, between that or-? Michael Imperioli: Yeah. I mean, you definitely can see it. Um, but the important thing about the _Sopranos_ or something like the _Godfather_ is like, they're trying to honestly portray that world. Like if you were gonna go and make the _Sopranos_ and Tony Soprano was some PC God would, you know, people aren't stupid. They're gonna say this bullshit, this is you- Chris Murphy: It's not real. Michael Imperioli: This is like the writer pandering to the current, you know, social situation. And um, also like, just because of work of art is about like an important social issue and kind of presents it, doesn't really mean that it's a good work of art. It just means it's an important social issue. The good work of art is in the execution and how well it's made. You know, we kind of confuse these two things now and um, uh, and I think that's, not so good always. Chris Murphy: Yeah, no, it doesn't. It actually often leads to bad art. You know, the, you know, the message might be on point or, you know, it might be, you know, and I, I get, and this is a criticism that I feel was lobbed against _White Lotus_ season one, which I, I never understand this criticism. If people are like, Oh, you know, all these rich people doing terrible things, like, who wants to see that? I, I, I love to see that. It's like, I don't wanna just watch nice people doing nice things. Where's the, where's the drama in that? Where's the, where's the excitement? It's like, I wanna see flawed people, you know, engaging in the world and, and learn something from that. Michael Imperioli: Yes. And I think a lot of people see, even if they're not rich, which probably most people who watch _The White Lotus_ probably are not rich. Or might be middle, whatever. See themselves in a weird way, just behaviorally, you know? In the way people behave with each other in their feelings of expectations or their feelings of, you know, in, in, especially in this season when it's all about relationships. I think there's both a vicarious thing, seeing how these rich people live, but there's also kind of a, a relatable thing at the same time. You know what I mean? Um, you don't have to be rich to kind of expect certain things out of your marriage. Chris Murphy: Yeah. Michael Imperioli: You know what I mean? Like this is what I'm expecting your role to be in this, you know? So I think it, it appeals to a lot of people in that. Chris Murphy: \Yeah. I mean, it, it, it transcends, you know, just, you know, one sort of echelon, even though it shows like, you know, how people in that sort of echelon, that sort of hyper 1% how they act and it's not that different than how you or I, or anyone acts, you know? We all struggle with, you know, these same sort of carnal desires. Michael Imperioli: Um, Yeah. And we all, we all get angry. We all get jealous. We all get, you know, full of desire. We all get, you know, arrogant. You know, it's like emotions are universal and it's just like, it's kind of the stage that it's playing out that specific. Chris Murphy: Yeah. I mean, that's, that's so, that's so true. I, this is a little odd, but what... how do you feel, Christopher, your Sopranos character, what would he think of Dominic? Why- would he like him? I like, I, I keep, I keep thinking like sometimes like they'd be- Michael Imperioli: I think if they spoke about addiction, he would understand that because he's somebody who went to rehab and was in 12 Step and tried really hard to get sober and struggled with it and failed at it. And, um, you know, he's certainly not as smart as Dominic. Um, but um, he might relate on that feeling of, you know, impulse, you know, behaviors that you want to control, that you can't. He may relate on that. Chris Murphy: Yeah, he could relate on that. Wow. That is really fantastic. Wow. Michael, thank you so much for joining me. This is so- Michael Imperioli: Thank you. Chris Murphy: This is really, this has been really a fantastic conversation. Thank you, sir. I appreciate it. Richard Lawson: All right, Chris, it's time for our favorite most morbid segment of any episode of _Still Watching_ _The White Lotus_. We gotta talk about who we think is dead. Chris Murphy: Yeah. Richard Lawson: We know there is at least, or at least two bodies in the water. Chris Murphy: A few. Richard Lawson: I think several is the word used in the first episode. Um, so just to refresh week one, Chris, you said Tanya. Chris Murphy: Yeah. Strong week for Tanya being dead given the fortune teller. I will say that. Richard Lawson: Yeah, that's true. So maybe we're back to Tanya. Uh, I said Mia and Lucia. Uh, last week you said maybe Harper and I said Portia and Albie in some sort of rescue gun run. Um, but you know, Chris, we're not the only ones with theories. Chris Murphy: Okay. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Um, maybe to get us started with our own ideas this week of who might be dead, uh, we'll go to some listeners, um, who wrote in again to stillwatchingpod@gmail.com. Gavin writes, um, with a dark theory. The images of bodies washing ashore on Mediterranean beaches has become a terribly, terribly regular site over the last decade as boats carrying refugees from North Africa, sadly capsize. Uh, I rate Mike White too highly to think he's utilizing this iconography unintentionally or without cause. And although the bodies seen in episode one turning out to be refugees fleeing a war may be a little too farfetched for the show I do think the way the dead characters are discovered is thematically important. It would suggest to me that they may be working class characters such as Mia and Lucia, and that White is once again displaying the disposability, uh, with which, uh, the wealthy view those of a lower class, which, you know, makes sense to me. Chris Murphy: That does make sense. Specifically tied to Mia and Lucia. That would be quite dark. Quite, quite tough. But I don't think that he would go so far as to bring in characters that we didn't necessarily know or have followed for a few episodes just to paint a, just to make a salient point about, um, the refugee crisis. But I do think that definitely adds a point to Mia and Lucia maybe, Richard Lawson: Yeah. Chris Murphy: Not belonging to this world. Richard Lawson: Um, and then Crystal writes to us, uh, and she says, my theory is that the quote, perfect couple, Cameron, Cameron, and Daphne is an obvious ruse perpetuated by Daphne, because once Ethan became a new billion, they started an affair back home. I mean, this foursome vacation makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The plan is to off Cameron and make it look like an acc- accident. This is why the show opens with her telling two total strangers what an amazing and romantic time she was having there. Cameron was the floater. Perfect alibi for the soon to be hysterical grieving wife. One more swim before the flight. Yeah, right? I love that Crystal. That is fun. Chris Murphy: That is fun as hell. Richard Lawson: Yeah, that is. And it puts Daphne right back in the driver's seat, which is where we want her. Chris Murphy: We love it. Love it. And you know what, I could see, you know, Daphne and ethan hitting it off. I could definitely see that, that. That's fun. That's, that's dishy. Richard Lawson: If Cameron is the one in the water though, who's the, who are the other people or other person? Maybe it's just two people. I don't know, but like that's, I mean- Chris Murphy: Yeah. Richard Lawson: Maybe it's Ethan. Chris Murphy: Ethan, Yeah. Maybe Cameron and Ethan get into some sort of- Richard Lawson: Maybe they hook up. Chris Murphy: They hook up, they hook up and then they into macho brawl and it, you know, it just devolves from there and they tear each other limb from limb. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Um, I gotta say this week it's boring, but I'm gonna go back to my original theory. I mean, I think Gavin's email kind of per, uh, swayed me toward back toward Mia and Lucia, partly because, you know, the more that we watch the show, they're the only characters who have touched everyone's lives, so far/ you know, like, oh, I guess they haven't really done anything with Portia and Tanya, but like they're around. I think Portia's aware of them. Like like it would make sense that the people floating between all these different groups are the ones who end up ultimately end up suffering at one of their hands or something, right? Chris Murphy: Yeah, that does, That does make a lot of sense. And also, you know, with the drugs now, we now know molly's, you know? Richard Lawson: Sure, yeah. Chris Murphy: Molly's in the conversation. Crazy things can happen when drugs happen. Richard Lawson: She also has Viagra. Chris Murphy: She does, She does have both. That is- Richard Lawson: And Cameron's like, oh, we don't need that. And it's like, if you had coke, you might. Chris Murphy: Yeah. Now that, say that. Um, Wow. Where do I, who do I think is in the water this week? You know what? I'm gonna go with someone that you said before, but for a different reason and I'm gonna bring back our, our hunk from the water who we don't know anything about. Richard Lawson: No, we don't. Chris Murphy: We don't know literally anything about him. And he's framed in such sort of like a lustful way. He's almost too good to be true, right? And when people are too good to be true, often something insidious and something bad is bubbling underneath. Richard Lawson: Yeah. Chris Murphy: So I'm worried about our girl Portia. She's lost. She wants some excitement. She, yeah, she wants to let her hair down. Albie's not good enough for her anymore because he is too nice. And I could see her getting, you know, roped into a whirlwind love affair with Mr. Love Island himself. And maybe that doesn't go well for her. Richard Lawson: Maybe she, things get a little too exciting. Chris Murphy: Yes. And that is something we have to be careful of. I hope that doesn't happen. Richard Lawson: That would be my quiteMike Whitemaking a very bleak statement. Chris Murphy: Yeah. But like, you know, very explicit and very bleak. Richard Lawson: He's, he's, he can, he can be a bleak guy. I mean, have you seen _Beatriz at Dinner_? Chris Murphy: I actually have not. Richard Lawson: Oh, well, well, you should see it. It's really good. But, um- Chris Murphy: My homework for this week. Richard Lawson: There's some bleakness, uh, involved in that certainly. So that's it for this week's episode. Um, as always, you can email us at stillwatchingpod@gmail.com with theories about who's dead, or - Chris Murphy: Questions, comments, concerns. Richard Lawson: What the hunks name might be, you know all that kind of stuff. Chris Murphy: What his number might be. Richard Lawson: Yeah. More importantly. Chris Murphy: If you have it, send it to us. Richard Lawson: Um, and if you don't wanna email, you can always find us on Twitter. I'm at @rilaws, which is R I L A W S, Chris Murphy: and I'm @christress, which is C H R I S T R E S S. Richard Lawson: This has been _Still Watching_ from _Vanity Fair_. Our editor and producer is Dave Gonzales, and we had production help from Peyton Hayes and Katey Rich. We had technical assistance from Scott Li. Steven Valentino is our executive producer, and our theme music is by Alexis Cuadrado. We'll be back next week for episode four. Looking forward to seeing you then.